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Size isn’t important, it’s what you do with it that counts, just ask Jeremy Corbyn

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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,216
    MJW said:

    Because these things generally don't stick around as first order issues unless there's some exacerbating factor or it has huge unforeseen negative consequences? If they did, Ed Miliband would've become PM.

    The WFA and VAT on school fees in particular seem highly unlikely to blow up beyond the initial burst of anger given one those losing it will basically get back in April and was becoming more irrelevant each year, while the other made something that had already become completely unaffordable to the vast majority slightly more so.

    The IHT changes could backfire if farming and landholders' lobbyists are right and the treasury wrong, and more apocalyptic scenarios come to pass - but even then negatives are likely to play out over decades.

    Plus the changes mainly fall on those least likely to vote Labour. Looked at cynically, just as the Tories did in 2010-15, if you're cutting/taxing things that are going to piss people off, it might as well be those who already don't like you.
    That works if you get credit for governing well from other voters.
    Otherwise, not so much.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,559
    kinabalu said:

    Don't be ridiculous.
    Right, because what he has done has been so effective!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,157
    Marjorie Taylor Greene weighs in on the big debate:

    https://x.com/repmtg/status/1872665199490076875

    Good gracious, I came out of Christmas bliss to see arguments about American labor vs H1-B imported labor and MAGA split over this issue.

    Good, that means everyone is engaged in saving this country.

    Here is some tough reality for some of you:

    There are some big MAGA voices with large social media platforms throwing down their opinions yet they have never run a company that relies on thousands of skilled/highly trained workers with a constant need for reliable labor yet they claim authority over the subject matter.

    When you spend years trying to constantly hire/train/maintain a good reliable workforce, which is a 24/7 never ending cycle, your real world experience will produce an opinion based on reality and all of your followers on X don’t translate to this.

    Having owned a construction company for decades (yes I’m that old), I know firsthand our workforce issues.

    However, I fully believe we must make the hard and necessary changes here in the U.S. to educate, build, and facilitate a solid foundation of knowledgeable, highly skilled, talented, well paid, AMERICAN workers.

    Not having this is like having a crumbling foundation in our house and currently we are importing foreigners to hold up the foundation walls and plug the leaks.

    Too many of our young people, are killing their bodies and minds on alcohol and drugs, wasting years and money earning useless college degrees, chasing unrealistic dreams, spending all their time trying to be the next you tuber/content creator/social media influencer instead of pursuing a useful skill set/trade/education in order to become a part of our much needed American workforce.

    If you fall in this category, put down the selfie light, and go apply for a job and replace the H1-B visa holders and all the other skilled labor jobs that foreign workers are taking and American companies are desperately trying to hire.

    It’s called building a career, you work your way up.

    In order to go forward we must change our education system, create a culture that respects hard work and productivity, cut government waste/spending/regulations in order to produce a healthy robust economy that lowers inflation and pays higher wages to an American workforce, so that H1-B is no longer needed and can be done away with.

    Decades of America LAST bad decisions in Washington wove a giant web of America LAST policies that created systems and structures that must be torn down and rebuilt to put America FIRST.

    This requires everyone’s help to change it and we will all have to do what it takes to get it done.

    It won’t be easy and it won’t be as quick as we like, but we can do it TOGETHER and the results will MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN but EVEN BETTER THAN BEFORE!!!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,838

    Marjorie Taylor Greene weighs in on the big debate:

    https://x.com/repmtg/status/1872665199490076875

    Good gracious, I came out of Christmas bliss to see arguments about American labor vs H1-B imported labor and MAGA split over this issue.

    Good, that means everyone is engaged in saving this country.

    Here is some tough reality for some of you:

    There are some big MAGA voices with large social media platforms throwing down their opinions yet they have never run a company that relies on thousands of skilled/highly trained workers with a constant need for reliable labor yet they claim authority over the subject matter.

    When you spend years trying to constantly hire/train/maintain a good reliable workforce, which is a 24/7 never ending cycle, your real world experience will produce an opinion based on reality and all of your followers on X don’t translate to this.

    Having owned a construction company for decades (yes I’m that old), I know firsthand our workforce issues.

    However, I fully believe we must make the hard and necessary changes here in the U.S. to educate, build, and facilitate a solid foundation of knowledgeable, highly skilled, talented, well paid, AMERICAN workers.

    Not having this is like having a crumbling foundation in our house and currently we are importing foreigners to hold up the foundation walls and plug the leaks.

    Too many of our young people, are killing their bodies and minds on alcohol and drugs, wasting years and money earning useless college degrees, chasing unrealistic dreams, spending all their time trying to be the next you tuber/content creator/social media influencer instead of pursuing a useful skill set/trade/education in order to become a part of our much needed American workforce.

    If you fall in this category, put down the selfie light, and go apply for a job and replace the H1-B visa holders and all the other skilled labor jobs that foreign workers are taking and American companies are desperately trying to hire.

    It’s called building a career, you work your way up.

    In order to go forward we must change our education system, create a culture that respects hard work and productivity, cut government waste/spending/regulations in order to produce a healthy robust economy that lowers inflation and pays higher wages to an American workforce, so that H1-B is no longer needed and can be done away with.

    Decades of America LAST bad decisions in Washington wove a giant web of America LAST policies that created systems and structures that must be torn down and rebuilt to put America FIRST.

    This requires everyone’s help to change it and we will all have to do what it takes to get it done.

    It won’t be easy and it won’t be as quick as we like, but we can do it TOGETHER and the results will MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN but EVEN BETTER THAN BEFORE!!!

    That's remarkably articulate.

    Are we sure she really wrote that?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,119
    rcs1000 said:

    The problem is that governments in the Western world have no money for the reasons I elucidated below.
    Britain is committing a mere £3bn a year to Ukraine. A Ukrainian victory is eminently affordable.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,299
    edited December 2024
    Cookie said:

    I don't think that's ridiculous. With even half-hearted American support Ukraine could have prevailed. But it suited America to have a stalemate, not least due to its impact on POO.
    No, sorry, but that's a nonsense. The policy was support (against serious domestic opposition btw) but be wary of escalation. You can argue the toss on whether more support was both preferable and possible but it was not a deliberate and cynical creation of a stalemate.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,559
    edited December 2024
    kinabalu said:

    Obviously. It was higher than nothing and lower than everything. Like most things.
    It wasn't as high as "enough", and that's what matters.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,472

    I'd almost argue the opposite, why wouldn't they be?

    Where does this idea that people "forget" policies or measures that targeted them once a parliament approaches its conclusion come from?

    Some might give up, accept it, or move onto other issues, but that's very far from a given.
    The Guardian, 27th Jan, 2028

    “Row over Private School VAT

    A row has erupted since he revelation that VAT on private schools has raised little tax and a number are *receiving* VAT rebates.

    John Pipsqueck, MP for Nether Bollocks claimed that this is “fraud against the taxpayer”

    The Bursar of Eton in a reply, pointed out that there had been multiple audits of the tax affairs of the school. The last one of which had revealed that the school was actually owed a further rebate of three thousand, four hundred and eighty-four pounds. And six pence. “
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,559
    Fishing said:

    The Tories didn't want to join the EU for half a century. In the 70s most of them supported joining the Common Market, which was very different from the EU, despite Ted Heath's lies about retaining sovereignty.

    In the 90s Major just about got his party to pass the Maastricht treated, which spawned the EU.

    And their policy in the 2010s was to have a referendum and implement the results, which they did, backed by the biggest democractic vote in this country's history, and endorsed by three general elections.

    So there's no continuity in European policy for them to go back to, nor could there have been, as the EU has mutated and metastacised so much over that time.
    Insofar as there was a consistent policy for that half century, it was "lie about what the European project was actually about".
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,216
    rcs1000 said:

    I don't think this is true at all.

    I think Biden would much rather that Ukraine had prevailed, because it would have led to the downfall of Putin, which would hugely of been in his interests.

    It's more accurate to say - as @williamglenn does - that Biden was excessively concerned about the risks of escalation, and overestimated Russia's strength. And that was a mistake.

    A mistake, for what it's worth, that many others made too.
    William is more interested in claiming Trump will be better.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,636
    rcs1000 said:

    I don't think this is true at all.

    I think Biden would much rather that Ukraine had prevailed, because it would have led to the downfall of Putin, which would hugely of been in his interests.

    It's more accurate to say - as @williamglenn does - that Biden was excessively concerned about the risks of escalation, and overestimated Russia's strength. And that was a mistake.

    A mistake, for what it's worth, that many others made too.
    I'm really not sure it is in America's interests for Putin to be replaced. Tge chances of Putin being replaced with someone who is better for America seem quite a long way lessthan 50%.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,996

    The problem Labour have is they are alienating various voting groups whilst failing to articulate how it all fits into an overall vision or strategy, because it doesn't.

    It risks looking vindictive, which will be noticed and impress itself upon a far wider group of voters, and means they will get little credit even if things do improve.
    I'd disagree with that - the overall strategy is fairly clear I think, if you listen to some of the bigger thinkers in the Labour millieu. It's to basically take that working age cohorts that won Labour the last election as had become so anti-Tory, and pursue policies that favour them. That's planning reform, the increased minimum wage, Rayners' workers' right stuff, restoring public services generally rely on to a level where they're not in a permacrisis, as well as a bit of populism on transport, and so on. Then a more reconciliatory attitude towards the EU and so on.

    The overall theory being that politics has become scleroritc because vested interests with large megaphones (and in the case of homeowning pensioners, voting power) mean we take counterproductive decisions to privilege them, over ones which benefit the public at large and working people in particular.

    At the next election, Labour would likely love to run as a party that was fixing things for working people against a Tory party that's stuck in the past and is beholden to its asset rich elderly base of blockers.

    But it is slow to emerge as the 'negative' bits you'd say look vindictive - but defenders would argue are simply refusing to exclude those with powerful supporters from tough tax and spending decisions - are frontloaded while the potential positives are more of a process.

    It's worth noticing there is a similar strand of thinking among young Tories (though obviously less statist) but gets rather drowned out by culture wars stuff, Farage, and the oppositional campaigns that cut against it.

    They also got a bit snookered by the Tories' scorched earth NI cut - which left them a choice between an honest but electorally risky pledge to reverse it, abandoning pledges to start fixing public services (you couldn't do much without pay deals), or what they did, putting it on employers in a way that isn't necessarily helpful to their aims. The first would've been the correct choice I think, but you can see why they didn't - and that's exactly why the Tories brought in the tax cut in the first place.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,559

    I think it's about the personal qualities of leadership.

    Consider Corbyn in 2017 and 2019. I don't think the electorate thought that his policies in 2019 were less credible than in 2017. I think that he, personally, was seen as a less credible person to implement them.
    The biggest difference was how close he was seen as being to power. You do remember 2017 and Labour MPs on doorsteps telling people it was safe to re-elect them because Corbyn couldn't possibly win?
  • Voting groups that all vote Tory anyway. So nothing to be lost in shafting well off pensioners and fans of the Worzels.
    Absurdly complacent.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,153

    The failure of Biden to call Putin's bluff in 2022 instead of closing the embassy and telling the world that Ukraine would fall in three days continues to have dreadful consequences.


    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/23/trump-putin-ukraine-invasion-00010923
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,472
    edited December 2024
    rcs1000 said:

    The problem is that governments in the Western world have no money for the reasons I elucidated below.
    Indeed

    Most of the stuff sent to Ukraine was about to time expire. And you don’t want to muck with solid rocket motors past their sell buy date. Disposing of them would actually have cost serious money - dissecting weapons that consist of a solid rocket motor and an HE warhead is a fiddly job, done by a small number of specialists. Using them for the Russian Tank Turret Tossing Olympics saved a fortune…

    The problem is one that has been true since before WWII - cutting ammunition stocks is loved by finance departments of government everywhere.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,559
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, opposing has 2 strands, let's reverse it vs let's make the best of it. I'm not sure which I'm in. I think the biggest cost was the distraction. All that political energy dissipated on something producing benefits only in the heads of a fringe sect of reactionary right wingers.
    At this point, those don't have to be contradictory (with the caveat that it isn't reversible as such, we won't be allowed to be half in again).

    Certainly the country would have been better off if the losers had pursued the second option from 2016, but that's water long since under the bridge.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,472

    @HYUFD is continuously fighting the last battle

    … of the war between the Beaker People and their antecedents, probably.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,664
    spudgfsh said:

    That's not true though.

    a true atheist actively disbelieves in god while an agnostic doesn't know if god exists but may actively disbelieve in the organised religions.
    No amount of belief or disbelief amounts to knowledge. Neither atheists nor theists are in any position to correctly claim to 'know'. To know something is to have a justified true belief. Both theism and atheism are properly believable and both have abundant justification. But which (if either) is true remains entirely open.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,472
    rcs1000 said:

    That's remarkably articulate.

    Are we sure she really wrote that?
    It (mostly) makes sense as well. Plus doesn’t hate on anyone.

    I’m calling it - fake.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,911

    Absurdly complacent.
    Complacency Mr Speaker…..
  • I think it's about the personal qualities of leadership.

    Consider Corbyn in 2017 and 2019. I don't think the electorate thought that his policies in 2019 were less credible than in 2017. I think that he, personally, was seen as a less credible person to implement them.
    My deepest fear is that a hard-left government wins in the next 20 years and utterly shafts everyone's homes, savings, equities and pensions.
  • Cookie said:

    Anyway, enough of this for now - World's Strongest Man is on!

    Well, now you've got Norfolk's maddest man!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,299
    Driver said:

    It wasn't as high as "enough", and that's what matters.
    How would it be looking with zero US support, do you think?
  • rcs1000 said:

    Did Fraser Nelson's Boxing Day column get shared?

    https://archive.ph/ryMuH#selection-3043.160-3047.39

    Great piece.

    Britain is a fantastic country.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,157

    It (mostly) makes sense as well. Plus doesn’t hate on anyone.

    I’m calling it - fake.
    It does hate on wannabe YouTubers and content creators.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,119
    Cookie said:

    I'm really not sure it is in America's interests for Putin to be replaced. Tge chances of Putin being replaced with someone who is better for America seem quite a long way lessthan 50%.
    Political instability in nuclear powers is contraindicated.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,559
    kinabalu said:

    How would it be looking with zero US support, do you think?
    Fundamentally the same - a failure either way.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,456
    Cookie said:

    Kids needed an airing today. The fog didn't strike me as overly conducive to a hill walk so we went up to the reservoirs at Longdendale Pleasantly atmospheric. But at the top reservoir, there was some blue sky overhead - and it became apparent that the top of the cloud was only about 250m or so. So on the way home we went via Charlesworth and took a detour up the Hayfield road, from where there was a magnificent sunset over the clouds.

    The fog looks set to last another 24 hours, but if you have any high land close to you it's well worth getting above it. Looking down on cloud is a delicious experience.

    Fog and low cloud here in Burgundy for the last couple of days, but clear above about 500m. We got up to a hilltop at 750m yesterday and had that wonderful view of a sea of fog with a few wooded islands and archipelagos, and in the distance the Jura then Mont Blanc standing above the Eastern horizon.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,119

    Indeed

    Most of the stuff sent to Ukraine was about to time expire. And you don’t want to muck with solid rocket motors past their sell buy date. Disposing of them would actually have cost serious money - dissecting weapons that consist of a solid rocket motor and an HE warhead is a fiddly job, done by a small number of specialists. Using them for the Russian Tank Turret Tossing Olympics saved a fortune…

    The problem is one that has been true since before WWII - cutting ammunition stocks is loved by finance departments of government everywhere.
    You can never store enough ammunition. The issue is in having a plan to ramp up or restart production before your stores run out.

    That plan seems not to have existed.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,561
    algarkirk said:

    No amount of belief or disbelief amounts to knowledge. Neither atheists nor theists are in any position to correctly claim to 'know'. To know something is to have a justified true belief. Both theism and atheism are properly believable and both have abundant justification. But which (if either) is true remains entirely open.
    I was correcting All atheists are agnostics which is not true. as an Theist or Atheist I'd actively believe there is or is not a god but as an Agnostic I'd not have a firm belief either way.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,299
    Nigelb said:

    William is more interested in claiming Trump will be better.
    Zackly. It's pitch rolling.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,472

    You can never store enough ammunition. The issue is in having a plan to ramp up or restart production before your stores run out.

    That plan seems not to have existed.
    It never has.

    Hence the NATO plan to hold the Fulham Gal for three days. Then blow the world up.

    Artillery shell bodies last forever. Lump of well made steel, no moving parts. We could have stacked up a 100 million somewhere.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,299
    edited December 2024
    algarkirk said:

    No amount of belief or disbelief amounts to knowledge. Neither atheists nor theists are in any position to correctly claim to 'know'. To know something is to have a justified true belief. Both theism and atheism are properly believable and both have abundant justification. But which (if either) is true remains entirely open.
    Agree. The "agnostic v atheist' split isn't that meaningful. You believe in "God" or you don't. Anybody needing evidence for belief will be in the latter category (barring direct divine experience).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,838
    Cookie said:

    I'm really not sure it is in America's interests for Putin to be replaced. Tge chances of Putin being replaced with someone who is better for America seem quite a long way lessthan 50%.
    Again, I don't think that's true at all.

    Putin's Russia has been a constant thorn in the West. In Poland, it spent a fortune on supporting groups to get fracking banned, for example. It has constantly tried to increase division in the West.

    Those actions have, historically, had no consequences.

    Any new regime in Moscow is going to be concerned primarily with getting sanctions removed and rebuilding the Russian economy. On the hierarchy of needs for any regime, getting the people fed and less likely to evict you is massively more important than stirring up trouble abroad.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,838

    It never has.

    Hence the NATO plan to hold the Fulham Gal for three days. Then blow the world up.

    Artillery shell bodies last forever. Lump of well made steel, no moving parts. We could have stacked up a 100 million somewhere.
    I think I met the Fulham Gal in the 151... why did NATO need to hold her again?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,299
    edited December 2024
    Driver said:

    At this point, those don't have to be contradictory (with the caveat that it isn't reversible as such, we won't be allowed to be half in again).

    Certainly the country would have been better off if the losers had pursued the second option from 2016, but that's water long since under the bridge.
    I don't think one can predict what the reentry terms would be.

    But whatever, it's a long ways off as a realistic prospect.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,497
    Carnyx said:

    Ever admitted being a former Scout? Someone is bound to ask about the woggle, so I just preempted it.
    I was barred from cubs so never made it to scouts
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,911

    Well, now you've got Norfolk's maddest man!
    Would that be Domingo from Little Oakley ?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,472
    rcs1000 said:

    I think I met the Fulham Gal in the 151... why did NATO need to hold her again?
    Auto incorrect strikes again. Probably AI driven….
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,299
    rcs1000 said:

    That's remarkably articulate.

    Are we sure she really wrote that?
    Is she running against Haley in 28 then?

    I think there's more chance of a woman winning in GOP colours actually.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,497
    algarkirk said:

    All atheists are agnostics. Just like all theists (including me). Whether some subject is knowable depends on the the nature of the subject, not the opinion of the putative knower.

    This is one of the trillion interesting insights of Kant's first critique.
    erm sorry to disagree...some theists are agnostics...the ones told you have to have faith
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,561
    rcs1000 said:

    Did Fraser Nelson's Boxing Day column get shared?

    https://archive.ph/ryMuH#selection-3043.160-3047.39

    cheers for sharing that. good piece.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,105
    edited December 2024

    Steve Baker is correct and you simply are stuck in reform
    On another topic. Do you know a Welsh musician called Karl Jenkins? I worked with him and his partner Mike Ratledge many times. He was my first choice for composing jingles particularly for cars and he was super cool.

    What I didn't know till this evening is that he's now been knighted and has written the most popular piece of classical music written by a living composer. I'm shocked!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,281
    edited December 2024
    kinabalu said:

    Agree. The "agnostic v atheist' split isn't that meaningful. You believe in "God" or you don't. Anybody needing evidence for belief will be in the latter category (barring direct divine experience).
    I believe even a certain number of C of E Bishops have been privately agnostic. They just like writing learned sermons, working in a magnificent often medieval cathedral, bossing their staff and the diocese about and if they are lucky living in a Palace like this (the only other people in the UK who get to live in a Palace are the royal family and Duke of Marlborough)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolvesey_Palace

    You even probably get some Roman Catholic Cardinals and Bishops who are similar on the quiet
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,299
    edited December 2024

    Biden appears to be equally scared of a Russian victory and a Russian defeat. Since he was unable to choose between what he saw as equally unpalatable options, then other actors would make that choice, and so he would bear some responsibility for not choosing to support a Ukrainian victory.
    I don't think he was at all ambivalent between those two things. He had a calculus to manage involving domestic politics and military and geopolitical risk. He did that, and it involved very considerable support without which Ukraine would probably be gone. He has very little to apologise for on this one imo.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,922
    kinabalu said:

    He did more than the minimum and had to fight to get it through at home. Trump is about to show us what a genuinely useless (to Ukraine) American president looks like.
    two cheeks of the same arse, time Europe woke up and sorted themselves out and UK especially stopped licking butt.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,299

    I think it's about the personal qualities of leadership.

    Consider Corbyn in 2017 and 2019. I don't think the electorate thought that his policies in 2019 were less credible than in 2017. I think that he, personally, was seen as a less credible person to implement them.
    Salisbury was bad for Corbyn. That really damaged him.
  • AnthonyTAnthonyT Posts: 140

    ...

    Paragraph 2. Whoosh. Who will clear the wee and poo up after incontinent Tory voting pensioners if you are sending all the low skilled "foreigners" home?
    They won't be needed. That's what the euthanasia bill is for.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,922

    Labour have said they will reduce immigration compared to the preceding Tory government. So, they appear to be doing exactly what you say none are willing to do.
    believe it when they actually do something, boat people invasion is up yet again and no doubt the other methods will be similar. You cannot get 10lb into a 5lb bag, it has to stop at some point before we are bankrupted.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,281
    HYUFD said:

    I believe even a certain number of C of E Bishops have been privately agnostic. They just like writing learned sermons, working in a magnificent often medieval cathedral, bossing their staff and the diocese about and if they are lucky living in a Palace like this (the only other people in the UK who get to live in a Palace are the royal family and Duke of Marlborough)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolvesey_Palace

    You even probably get some Roman Catholic Cardinals and Bishops who are similar on the quiet
    Plus for most diocesan Bishops you still get a seat in the House of Lords as well
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,299
    Driver said:

    Fundamentally the same - a failure either way.
    Don't be ridiculous.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,839
    HYUFD said:

    Plus for most diocesan Bishops you still get a seat in the House of Lords as well
    It's about half - 42 dioceses, 24 Lords Spiritual.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,281
    ydoethur said:

    It's about half - 42 dioceses, 24 Lords Spiritual.
    It also goes on seniority so even if you are not in now you may still get in after a few retirements
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,299
    malcolmg said:

    two cheeks of the same arse, time Europe woke up and sorted themselves out and UK especially stopped licking butt.
    Trump/Biden are not "two cheeks". Cmon.

    But, yes, agree on Europe. There's a crunch coming if America are going to shed their Big Protector role.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,839
    HYUFD said:

    It also goes on seniority so even if you are not in now you may still get in after a few retirements
    Slightly complicated by the current fast-tracking of female bishops.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,922

    We are having to release prisoners early because there aren't enough places and schools are literally falling down. That really doesn't suggest the state is doing too much.
    money being squandered on the wrong things , ie 5 billion on hotels alone for economic migrants , that we know of. They could save 10-15% if they cut the waste, got some productivity going and spent the proceeds on improving things.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,922
    Pagan2 said:

    If we ever rejoin the eu I hope to see the rise of a gb republican army fighting it
    If we don't sort it out we will be a banana republic in short order.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,484

    You can never store enough ammunition. The issue is in having a plan to ramp up or restart production before your stores run out.

    That plan seems not to have existed.
    I am sure reports have been written, consultations had, plans about plans formed. All "on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard.'"
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,000
    kinabalu said:

    Salisbury was bad for Corbyn. That really damaged him.
    Rightly so. The casual use (and even more reckless disposal) of deadly military-grade nerve agents in an English city is one thing your politics should never find a way to excuse.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,119
    edited December 2024
    kinabalu said:

    I don't think he was at all ambivalent between those two things. He had a calculus to manage involving domestic politics and military and geopolitical risk. He did that, and it involved very considerable support without which Ukraine would probably be gone. He has very little to apologise for on this one imo.
    He was wrong.

    He delayed providing Ukraine with necessary weapons numerous times and was wrong to do so, and had to be dragged into doing so by the Ukrainians or the British.

    His fears over the escalation risk were shown to be unfounded over and over again, and he did not learn from this experience. He does not have a strategy for Ukrainian victory. He acts only to prevent Ukrainian defeat. That is why I say that he is equally scared of Russian defeat and Russian victory.

    He's hoping that Russia will tire of the war and call it quits. That's his strategy.

    It may turn out to be better than Trump's "strategy", but it was never good enough.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,119

    He was wrong.

    He delayed providing Ukraine with necessary weapons numerous times and was wrong to do so, and had to be dragged into doing so by the Ukrainians or the British.

    His fears over the escalation risk were shown to be unfounded over and over again, and he did not learn from this experience. He does not have a strategy for Ukrainian victory. He acts only to prevent Ukrainian defeat. That is why I say that he is equally scared of Russian defeat and Russian victory.

    He's hoping they Russia will tire of the war and can it quits. That's all.

    It may turn out to be better than Trump's "strategy", but it was never good enough.
    As an aside, I think this is one of the corrosive effects of Trump on politics. It's made anti-Trumpists have really low standards. Simply not being Trump is good enough for them when there is plenty to criticise in non-Trump policy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,216
    Roger said:

    On another topic. Do you know a Welsh musician called Karl Jenkins? I worked with him and his partner Mike Ratledge many times. He was my first choice for composing jingles particularly for cars and he was super cool.

    What I didn't know till this evening is that he's now been knighted and has written the most popular piece of classical music written by a living composer. I'm shocked!
    Jeez, Roger.
    I thought everyone knows The Armed Man.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,559
    kinabalu said:

    Don't be ridiculous.
    You call this a success?
  • Roger said:

    On another topic. Do you know a Welsh musician called Karl Jenkins? I worked with him and his partner Mike Ratledge many times. He was my first choice for composing jingles particularly for cars and he was super cool.

    What I didn't know till this evening is that he's now been knighted and has written the most popular piece of classical music written by a living composer. I'm shocked!
    Yes I have heard of Karl Jenkins and he is actually just 12 days older than me !!!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,737
    edited December 2024
    On Western countries potentially having to fight a proper war.

    Have we noted that the ship 'arrested' (ie escorted into port) by the Finnish Coastguard in connection with the Estlink Electricity interconnector (658MW), and also the two broken fibre optic internet cables, and the further one damaged, over Christmas, is thought to be part of Russia's shadow fleet of offshored ancient oil tankers?
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/26/finnish-coastguard-boards-eagle-s-oil-tanker-suspected-of-causing-power-cable-outages

    I'd say they are testing the edges, and attacking resilience. The power cable will take months to repair.

    I'm actually not sure what powers police and coastguards have to operate in international waters, or what sanctions can be applied to Russian-controlled ships. Iirc it's very complicated, and takes forever, if things are not done under "we need to do THIS" type powers that coastguards etc may not have.

    I believe the UK now has one ship - RFA Proteus, bought second hand from Norway last year, dedicated to keeping an eye on undersea assets, amongst the other things it does.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFA_Proteus

  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,996
    kinabalu said:

    Salisbury was bad for Corbyn. That really damaged him.
    There was an element in 2019 that people thought he was taking the mick by the end - free broadband and WASPI pledges were laughed at in a way the more moderate 2017 offer wasn't, but it's Salisbury (and the associated sympathies it confirmed in people's minds), Brexit, and to a lesser extent the appalling way he handled antisemitism that doomed him rather than the manifesto.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,000
    So far it's 234 Arsenal -17 Ipswich on completed passes...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,922
    edited December 2024
    kinabalu said:

    Trump/Biden are not "two cheeks". Cmon.

    But, yes, agree on Europe. There's a crunch coming if America are going to shed their Big Protector role.
    I think they are re Ukraine. Europe should tell them to F off and stop buying any kit from them , they would shit their pants
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,922

    Rightly so. The casual use (and even more reckless disposal) of deadly military-grade nerve agents in an English city is one thing your politics should never find a way to excuse.
    we are led by sheep
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,000
    malcolmg said:

    money being squandered on the wrong things , ie 5 billion on hotels alone for economic migrants , that we know of. They could save 10-15% if they cut the waste, got some productivity going and spent the proceeds on improving things.
    Or just paying down the borrowing incurred through Covid.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,559

    As an aside, I think this is one of the corrosive effects of Trump on politics. It's made anti-Trumpists have really low standards. Simply not being Trump is good enough for them when there is plenty to criticise in non-Trump policy.
    Indeed. On Ukraine policies there was a choice last month between "proven to be not remotely good enough" and "almost certainly worse".
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,484

    … of the war between the Beaker People and their antecedents, probably.
    I think you'll find that a snap Opinium poll from ~2000BC showed that the Beaker People were on track to win the Bronze Age. And thus it came to pass.

    ...

    Oh, hang on.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,561

    So far it's 234 Arsenal -17 Ipswich on completed passes...

    as long as Ipswich are losing I don't care
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,613
    Pagan2 said:

    I was barred from cubs so never made it to scouts
    Why am I not surprised, somehow?
  • AnthonyTAnthonyT Posts: 140
    MattW said:

    On Western countries potentially having to fight a proper war.

    Have we noted that the ship 'arrested' (ie escorted into port) by the Finnish Coastguard in connection with the Estlink Electricity interconnector (658MW), and also the two broken fibre optic internet cables, and the further one damaged, over Christmas, is thought to be part of Russia's shadow fleet of offshored ancient oil tankers?
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/26/finnish-coastguard-boards-eagle-s-oil-tanker-suspected-of-causing-power-cable-outages

    I'd say they are testing the edges, and attacking resilience. The power cable will take months to repair.

    I'm actually not sure what powers police and coastguards have to operate in international waters, or what sanctions can be applied to Russian-controlled ships. Iirc it's very complicated, and takes forever, if things are not done under "we need to do THIS" type powers that coastguards etc may not have.

    I believe the UK now has one ship - RFA Proteus, bought second hand from Norway last year, dedicated to keeping an eye on undersea assets, amongst the other things it does.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFA_Proteus

    What are the chances of an actual Russian attack on Finland in 2025? Or one of the Baltic states?

    More than negligible.

    If it does happen we are hopelessly unprepared.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,199
    MJW said:

    I'd disagree with that - the overall strategy is fairly clear I think, if you listen to some of the bigger thinkers in the Labour millieu. It's to basically take that working age cohorts that won Labour the last election as had become so anti-Tory, and pursue policies that favour them. That's planning reform, the increased minimum wage, Rayners' workers' right stuff, restoring public services generally rely on to a level where they're not in a permacrisis, as well as a bit of populism on transport, and so on. Then a more reconciliatory attitude towards the EU and so on.

    The overall theory being that politics has become scleroritc because vested interests with large megaphones (and in the case of homeowning pensioners, voting power) mean we take counterproductive decisions to privilege them, over ones which benefit the public at large and working people in particular.

    At the next election, Labour would likely love to run as a party that was fixing things for working people against a Tory party that's stuck in the past and is beholden to its asset rich elderly base of blockers.

    But it is slow to emerge as the 'negative' bits you'd say look vindictive - but defenders would argue are simply refusing to exclude those with powerful supporters from tough tax and spending decisions - are frontloaded while the potential positives are more of a process.

    It's worth noticing there is a similar strand of thinking among young Tories (though obviously less statist) but gets rather drowned out by culture wars stuff, Farage, and the oppositional campaigns that cut against it.

    They also got a bit snookered by the Tories' scorched earth NI cut - which left them a choice between an honest but electorally risky pledge to reverse it, abandoning pledges to start fixing public services (you couldn't do much without pay deals), or what they did, putting it on employers in a way that isn't necessarily helpful to their aims. The first would've been the correct choice I think, but you can see why they didn't - and that's exactly why the Tories brought in the tax cut in the first place.
    It looks increasingly likely that both the tractor tax* and VAT on public schools will be revenue negative. So there's no positive outcome at the end of that rainbow, just people upset and livelihoods ruined. These will be overturned.

    The WFA, I agree in principle that millionaire pensioners shouldn't get it, but how disastrously has it been mishandled? I don't see any long term political benefit there either, and the savings are pitiful.

    The long term strategy of this Government has been simple - get rejoining the EU underway, under the "casus belli" of a worsening economic, immigration, and perhaps security outlook - conveniently blaming these on Tory misrule. Save a bit of financial headroom for pork at the end of the parliament, and be joylessly re-elected.

    The strategy is shot to shit, because:
    *It's Labour's paws all over the coming recession. Sorry guys, everybody is blaming Reeves' death budget, not the "£22bn black hole" because that's how economies work.
    *Because of the above, there won't be any headroom for later bribes
    *The Government is detested, with no political capital to spend on its pet projects like local Government reorganisation or 'UK energy'. Hope is being kept alive by the continuing rubishness of the Tories and the fact that Yougov have helpfully suspended VI polling.
    *Everyone can see that Rwanda was shitcanned and the boats jumped. There is no EU scheme to join.

    One term - let's hope they don't make it to five years.

  • For the second time this year I have discovered that somebody who I was quite close to but had lost touch with died of cancer, some years ago. Still quite a deep sense of loss.

    Also just learned someone I am very much still in contact with (who I saw in their new home a couple of months ago) was on his bike and struck by a hit-and-run driver just before Christmas. Smashed leg, still concerned about ongoing back pain too.

    Makes me feel very fortunate heading into a new year.

    We received Christmas cards from old friends in Edinburgh in the 1960's, a former employee of mine, and a relative we haven't seen in years and the firsts husband has dementia since last Christmas and she has heart issues, the former employee's husband has had a lung clot and is receiving treatment for cancer whilst she is suffering from osteoporosis, and the relative is very ill with cancer

    The common denominator is they are all between 75 and 85

    And the moral of the story - enjoy life to the full and never take your health for granted
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,613
    HYUFD said:

    It also goes on seniority so even if you are not in now you may still get in after a few retirements
    You said "get a seat". Present tense. Do please be accurate in debate on PB.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,636
    rcs1000 said:

    Again, I don't think that's true at all.

    Putin's Russia has been a constant thorn in the West. In Poland, it spent a fortune on supporting groups to get fracking banned, for example. It has constantly tried to increase division in the West.

    Those actions have, historically, had no consequences.

    Any new regime in Moscow is going to be concerned primarily with getting sanctions removed and rebuilding the Russian economy. On the hierarchy of needs for any regime, getting the people fed and less likely to evict you is massively more important than stirring up trouble abroad.
    I'd like to think that's so. But alternatively it could decide to pursue whatever mad bastardry it happens to have on its agenda while it has the chance? Worldwide, the record of benign regimes replacing dictators is at best mixed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,472
    ohnotnow said:

    I think you'll find that a snap Opinium poll from ~2000BC showed that the Beaker People were on track to win the Bronze Age. And thus it came to pass.

    ...

    Oh, hang on.
    …, but only if you added the Don’t Knows to the positive votes for the Beaker People.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,292
    AnthonyT said:

    What are the chances of an actual Russian attack on Finland in 2025? Or one of the Baltic states?

    More than negligible.

    If it does happen we are hopelessly unprepared.
    The local armies are fully prepared. Bear in mind that the Russian army is a long way from the Baltic at present.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,000
    spudgfsh said:
    Impeccable timing. Released before or after they downed the Azeri jet?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,119
    Cicero said:

    The local armies are fully prepared. Bear in mind that the Russian army is a long way from the Baltic at present.
    There are 2,700 full time soldiers in the Estonian Army.

    That's about two days of casualties for the Russian army in the current war.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,000

    …, but only if you added the Don’t Knows to the positive votes for the Beaker People.
    You can't get to do that, just because the Beaker people were mugs...
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,484
    AnthonyT said:

    What are the chances of an actual Russian attack on Finland in 2025? Or one of the Baltic states?

    More than negligible.

    If it does happen we are hopelessly unprepared.
    Given their recent defence of their Syrian friends, it may well be beyond them now. Outside of prodding to get a reaction. A sudden invasion of Belarus to protect the homeland however - a quick victory, Lukashenko very sadly having to live out his life in a nice Villa on the Black Sea. A great triumph for the Lord Protector while he negotiates with Ukraine to justify all those dead boys and heartbroken parents.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,472

    You can't get to do that, just because the Beaker people were mugs...
    Are you a Beakerpert now?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,000

    There are 2,700 full time soldiers in the Estonian Army.

    That's about two days of casualties for the Russian army in the current war.
    But there are three and a half million in NATO.

    If we don't defend Estonia, then NATO is a goner.

    Any time in the next decade, Russia versus a full NATO response would give the Anglo-Zanzibar War a run for the Guinness Book of Records title.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,000

    Are you a Beakerpert now?
    No.

    But I know a mug when I see one coming.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,561

    There are 2,700 full time soldiers in the Estonian Army.

    That's about two days of casualties for the Russian army in the current war.
    unlike the US, UK, France, Germany and a few others in NATO, the Baltic states and Finland have always taken the threat of Russia Seriously. Their defence will make Ukraine's look like a shambles.

    any attack by Russia will either be into Lithuania or Poland to connect Belarus to Kalinningrad. But that's not going to happen as Russia would need a few years to rebuild the shattered remnants of their army and tanks etc.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,432
    Driver said:

    Insofar as there was a consistent policy for that half century, it was "lie about what the European project was actually about".
    To quote the Queens Speech at the State opening of Parliament in 1972:

    "My Government will play a full and constructive part in the enlarged European Communities. They look forward to the opportunities membership will bring, for developing the country's full economic and industrial potential, for working out social and environmental policies on a European scale, and for increasing the influence of the enlarged Community for the benefit of the world at large."

    It was always and explicitly more than a trading arrangement. Unless you believe that the Queen was lying to Parliament.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,559
    Foxy said:

    To quote the Queens Speech at the State opening of Parliament in 1972:

    "My Government will play a full and constructive part in the enlarged European Communities. They look forward to the opportunities membership will bring, for developing the country's full economic and industrial potential, for working out social and environmental policies on a European scale, and for increasing the influence of the enlarged Community for the benefit of the world at large."

    It was always and explicitly more than a trading arrangement. Unless you believe that the Queen was lying to Parliament.
    Yeah, as if that's a full description of the Project.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,000

    It looks increasingly likely that both the tractor tax* and VAT on public schools will be revenue negative. So there's no positive outcome at the end of that rainbow, just people upset and livelihoods ruined. These will be overturned.

    The WFA, I agree in principle that millionaire pensioners shouldn't get it, but how disastrously has it been mishandled? I don't see any long term political benefit there either, and the savings are pitiful.

    The long term strategy of this Government has been simple - get rejoining the EU underway, under the "casus belli" of a worsening economic, immigration, and perhaps security outlook - conveniently blaming these on Tory misrule. Save a bit of financial headroom for pork at the end of the parliament, and be joylessly re-elected.

    The strategy is shot to shit, because:
    *It's Labour's paws all over the coming recession. Sorry guys, everybody is blaming Reeves' death budget, not the "£22bn black hole" because that's how economies work.
    *Because of the above, there won't be any headroom for later bribes
    *The Government is detested, with no political capital to spend on its pet projects like local Government reorganisation or 'UK energy'. Hope is being kept alive by the continuing rubishness of the Tories and the fact that Yougov have helpfully suspended VI polling.
    *Everyone can see that Rwanda was shitcanned and the boats jumped. There is no EU scheme to join.

    One term - let's hope they don't make it to five years.

    The only way they don't make a full term is if about 100 Labour MPs all agree on a change of career, effective forthwith.

    I do not expect more than about three to abandon suckling on the public sector teat. And that might be optimistic, by, oh I dont know - three?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,119

    But there are three and a half million in NATO.

    If we don't defend Estonia, then NATO is a goner.

    Any time in the next decade, Russia versus a full NATO response would give the Anglo-Zanzibar War a run for the Guinness Book of Records title.
    I sure hope so, but we have to be realistic about the situation, particularly if Trump walks away from NATO commitments.

    That would be a situation which would demand determined European leadership to keep the NATO alliance together. Who is going to provide it?
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,561
    ohnotnow said:

    Given their recent defence of their Syrian friends, it may well be beyond them now. Outside of prodding to get a reaction. A sudden invasion of Belarus to protect the homeland however - a quick victory, Lukashenko very sadly having to live out his life in a nice Villa on the Black Sea. A great triumph for the Lord Protector while he negotiates with Ukraine to justify all those dead boys and heartbroken parents.
    Most likely next scenario when there's protest against the 'victory' of Lukashenko next year Putin comes in and annexes Belarus
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,000

    I sure hope so, but we have to be realistic about the situation, particularly if Trump walks away from NATO commitments.

    That would be a situation which would demand determined European leadership to keep the NATO alliance together. Who is going to provide it?
    A more pressing issue that needs action is the regular cutting of subsea power/internet cables.

    Give Ukraine permission (and the means) to destroy forty Russian power stations overnight. To be repeated next time a single cable suffers from a "dragged anchor".

    (Although now it seems the time is right to bury the bloody things, regardless of cost).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,432
    edited December 2024
    Driver said:

    Yeah, as if that's a full description of the Project.
    Perhaps the 1973 Queens speech in Hansard helps:

    "In co-operation with other Member States My Government will play their full part in the further development of the European Community in accordance with the programme established at the European Summit in October 1972. This programme includes progress towards economic and monetary union; measures for the establishment of a regional development fund; and co-operation in foreign policy between Member States."

    For a secret project the operational security wasn't very tight, with the Queen blabbing like that in Parliament.
This discussion has been closed.