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A dangerously illiberal idea – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,180
edited November 24 in General
A dangerously illiberal idea – politicalbetting.com

Should the U.K. ban polling for a period before an election? Other countries do — and top Tory & Labour strategists both see the case for it. Latest story from my book Landslide with @REWearmouth here https://t.co/1P1fiTS4RK

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,540
    As a social liberal, it is clear that the real danger in elections is the election of non-social liberals.

    So we need to ban voting. To protect democracy.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,429
    edited November 20
    First Carpetbagged First Speaker

    We won't be taking punts any more if polling is banned.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,239
    edited November 20
    Maybe a couple of weeks before

    And Ford's to cut 4,000 jobs over 3 years, 800 in UK

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,727
    Stupid idea. And unenforceable, as the header notes
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,238
    edited November 20
    Good poll for Buttigieg:

    #New 2028 Dem primary poll

    Kamala Harris - 43%
    Pete Buttigieg - 9%
    Gavin Newsom - 8%
    Tim walz - 7%
    Josh Shapiro - 5%
    Ocasio-Cortez - 4%
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    Malmesbury said:

    As a social liberal, it is clear that the real danger in elections is the election of non-social liberals.

    So we need to ban voting. To protect democracy.

    Politicians everywhere:

    "Am I so out of touch? No, it's the electorate who are wrong!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYAuR5bkIlQ
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,180
    FPT
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    viewcode said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    viewcode said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    MaxPB said:

    The main reason public sector productivity is so poor is the inability to move unproductive people out. The ultimate tool for increasing output per worker is to shit can the least productive ones which is something that private sector businesses do all the time. Until that attitude is brought to the public sector no amount of "investment" will help. The lazy and the feckless are attracted to the public sector because they know once they're in it's impossible to be removed regardless of how shit they are at the job.

    Change this and suddenly public sector productivity will shoot up as those lazy buggers start to fear for their next salary.

    To broaden the point, where's the incentive to sack people who aren't performing - where is the incentive to perform at all? The money comes from Government grant, so the incentive is actually to fail, because failing services get more money thrown at them. The NHS has been very successful at failing for years. An efficient, high performance public service would see its budget reduced the next year.

    What we really need is a total reordering of incentives within the public sector, where possible based on the money following the user, and the user having choice. If hospitals and schools had to attract patients and pupils to get funding, all the perverse incentives would be reversed and the services grow better and more efficient.
    I'm plowing thru (I know, I know :) ) Abby Innes's "Late Soviet Britain" and she makes a very convincing case as to why that simply doesn't work. Basically if you run the public sector like the private sector you lose control due to the principle-agent problem, so to regain control you impose authorities, regulators, targets etc, and you end up with a brundlefly hybrid with the disadvantages of both, lying on the lab floor pleading to be killed.

    It sounds good in theory. It isn't in practice. And we have about forty years of evidence for that now.
    I don't know what 'the principle agent problem' is - if I did I could opine. I'd say 'losing control' is a feature not a bug - Whitehall controlling things appears to be at the root of most of the problems we face, and has been for more than 5 decades.

    As for practice, of course we don't have 40 years of experience. Market based reforms haven't taken place in our public services, even at pilot level as far as I'm aware.
    Sorry, principal-agent problem. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal–agent_problem )

    If you outsource a thing to somebody else, that person has their own goals and will deviate from yours over times. You need to prevent them so you end up imposing controls, making a mockery of the outsourcing in the first place.

    I was referring to the Thatcher reforms of outsourcing, followed by the Blair reforms of targets etc. We tried it. It didn't work. We tried to make it better. We made it worse. By the time we got to Covid it got out-and-out corrupt. And we keep saying "more bureaucracy will fix it!" It won't. And we keep saying "make it behave like the private sector!". And it doesn't
    That doesn't really address my point though. What you're talking about could be termed 'the privatisation of supply'. What I am talking about is the privatisation of demand. When you outsource supply, there may be some efficiency benefits, but the Government is still the client and the system does not change fundamentally - and it brings its own issues. When you privatise the demand, you're reversing that. It doesn't matter whether the supplier is in public or private hands. It could be entirely public, but as long as the money and therefore the incentive comes from the user, and the user is free to go elsewhere, with the requisite effect on income, it will work.
    I'm not sure what you mean by "privatisation of supply" (school vouchers?), but I have a horrible suspicion that we are agreeing at this point. :)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,238
    edited November 20
    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    I'd probably rank the recent Dem candidates as follows:

    08 Obama
    12 Obama
    20 Biden
    16 Clinton
    24 Harris
    24 Biden
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,285
    FPT:

    On Ukraine:

    - Neither Russia, nor Ukraine has an unlimited supply of soldiers. As always, some people seem to note one side's losses without noting the other's.

    - Like the First World War, losses in offensive operations have been utterly horrendous. Casualty ratios of 6-1 are the norm here. This makes a successful Ukrainian offensive exceptionally difficult, but it also largely removes Russia's population advantage as they will use up at least as high a % of the population as Ukraine if they're attacking.

    - Defenders will always have more people who will fight. If London was under attack by the Russians, every man, woman and child (except perhaps Malc) would grab arms to defend it. It's much harder for the invader.

    - Putin has been much better at clamping down on internal dissent than I would have expected. Russian losses have been something like 700-750,000 dead and wounded, which is 50x higher than Afghanistan. Given how few young people there are in Russia, I would have expected mass demonstrations from mothers, but that's simply not happened.

    - Early on in the conflict, the impact on the Russian economy was relatively modest. That is not the case any more. Inflation has started rising, with the price of vegetables and onions soaring (+70% this year) due to a lack of workers on farms (because they've all been shipped off to Ukraine).

    - I've been surprised by the lack of trouble in other part's of Russia's empire. I would have expected the Chechens to kick off, simply because troops from Moscow can't come running any more.

    - Can North Korea make a difference? Well, there are lots of North Koreans, but they are likely to be extremely poor and how well equipped will they be?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,180
    It is a stupid fucking idea. The HoL reviewed the possibility in one of their "Why are the polls shit" reviews and decided against it. Even if they had decided for it it would still be a stupid fucking idea. I disagree with it so strongly I am using rude words.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,239
    edited November 20
    Sky now reporting the firing of UK storm shadow into Russia

    https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-latest-putin-trump-zelenskyy-live-sky-news-12541713
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,936
    I'm screaming with the Eagles for once
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,285
    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    Really? Biden was a terrible candidate who never made it far in the regular Democratic primaries prior to 2020, and he only won then because Iowa fucked up.

    The Democrats - as Nate Silver noted in his post election write-up - have a pretty strong slate of new, youngish popular moderates, with people like Jon Ossoff and Andy Bashear.

    You just don't tend to see them, because Clinton's generation has been at the fore for so long.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,238
    rcs1000 said:



    - I've been surprised by the lack of trouble in other part's of Russia's empire. I would have expected the Chechens to kick off, simply because troops from Moscow can't come running any more.

    They all love Kadyrov there, even turned up to the Beterbiev fight like the Donald did to support Jon Jones lol.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,763
    So messaging aubergines and peaches emojis can lead to misunderstandings.

    ***Innocent Face***
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,238
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    Really? Biden was a terrible candidate who never made it far in the regular Democratic primaries prior to 2020, and he only won then because Iowa fucked up.

    The Democrats - as Nate Silver noted in his post election write-up - have a pretty strong slate of new, youngish popular moderates, with people like Jon Ossoff and Andy Bashear.

    You just don't tend to see them, because Clinton's generation has been at the fore for so long.
    He got 81 million votes !
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,285
    edited November 20
    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    I'd probably rank the recent Dem candidates as follows:

    08 Obama
    12 Obama
    20 Biden
    16 Clinton
    24 Harris
    24 Biden

    Kerry 2004 was pretty awful, as was Gore 2000.

    But then again, the Republicans have put up some pretty awful candidates over the years too.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,936
    I wonder how detailed anec
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    So messaging aubergines and peaches emojis can lead to misunderstandings.

    ***Innocent Face***

    Are Reform the aubergines, and Lib Dems the peaches?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,285
    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    Really? Biden was a terrible candidate who never made it far in the regular Democratic primaries prior to 2020, and he only won then because Iowa fucked up.

    The Democrats - as Nate Silver noted in his post election write-up - have a pretty strong slate of new, youngish popular moderates, with people like Jon Ossoff and Andy Bashear.

    You just don't tend to see them, because Clinton's generation has been at the fore for so long.
    He got 81 million votes !
    There were 81 million votes against Donald Trump.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,238
    On the GOP side, the big question is to my mind - which Trump gets the VP spot ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,476
    Pulpstar said:

    Good poll for Buttigieg:

    #New 2028 Dem primary poll

    Kamala Harris - 43%
    Pete Buttigieg - 9%
    Gavin Newsom - 8%
    Tim walz - 7%
    Josh Shapiro - 5%
    Ocasio-Cortez - 4%

    Nixon precedent for Harris ?
  • gettingbettergettingbetter Posts: 553
    I see the SNP and PC are doing very badly, the other parties have 99% between them.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,757
    If social media reports are accurate (so huge dollop of caution), it looks like the Storm Shadow target was the Russian's Kursk command centre.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,056
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    Really? Biden was a terrible candidate who never made it far in the regular Democratic primaries prior to 2020, and he only won then because Iowa fucked up.

    The Democrats - as Nate Silver noted in his post election write-up - have a pretty strong slate of new, youngish popular moderates, with people like Jon Ossoff and Andy Bashear.

    You just don't tend to see them, because Clinton's generation has been at the fore for so long.
    Iowa: screwing up elections since 2020.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,054
    Another batch of local by-elections tomorrow with no Con defences. Once again there are several caused by new MPs resigning their council seats. We have Lab defences in Glasgow (x3), Gosport, and Sefton; LD defences in Dacorum, Highland, Horsham, Rutland, and Somerset (x2); Ind defences in Dacorum and Swale; and Res defences in Dartford and Kent.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,540
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    Really? Biden was a terrible candidate who never made it far in the regular Democratic primaries prior to 2020, and he only won then because Iowa fucked up.

    The Democrats - as Nate Silver noted in his post election write-up - have a pretty strong slate of new, youngish popular moderates, with people like Jon Ossoff and Andy Bashear.

    You just don't tend to see them, because Clinton's generation has been at the fore for so long.
    Hmmm

    Year,Democrats,Republicans
    1972,29173222,47168710
    1976,40831881,39148634
    1980,35480115,43903230
    1984,37577352,54455472
    1988,41809074,48886097
    1992,44909806,39104550
    1996,47402357,39198755
    2000,50999897,50456002
    2004,59028444,62040610
    2008,69498516,59948323
    2012,65915795,60933504
    2016,65853514,62984828
    2020,81283501,74223975
    2024,71900000,77200000

    2024 is estimated, of course.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,300
    This idea gets floated around occasionally but it's silly and unenforceable and anyway, I but most of the politicians become as addicted to VI polls during election campaigns just like political betters :D
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,056
    david_herdson said:

    If social media reports are accurate (so huge dollop of caution), it looks like the Storm Shadow target was the Russian's Kursk command centre.

    That's probably just people hearing the bangs, then looking at a map to see what's around.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,849
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    Really? Biden was a terrible candidate who never made it far in the regular Democratic primaries prior to 2020, and he only won then because Iowa fucked up.

    The Democrats - as Nate Silver noted in his post election write-up - have a pretty strong slate of new, youngish popular moderates, with people like Jon Ossoff and Andy Bashear.

    You just don't tend to see them, because Clinton's generation has been at the fore for so long.
    He got 81 million votes !
    There were 81 million votes against Donald Trump.
    Trump is almost unique in increasing his popular vote total in three consecutive elections.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,476
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    On Ukraine:

    - Neither Russia, nor Ukraine has an unlimited supply of soldiers. As always, some people seem to note one side's losses without noting the other's.

    - Like the First World War, losses in offensive operations have been utterly horrendous. Casualty ratios of 6-1 are the norm here. This makes a successful Ukrainian offensive exceptionally difficult, but it also largely removes Russia's population advantage as they will use up at least as high a % of the population as Ukraine if they're attacking.

    - Defenders will always have more people who will fight. If London was under attack by the Russians, every man, woman and child (except perhaps Malc) would grab arms to defend it. It's much harder for the invader.

    - Putin has been much better at clamping down on internal dissent than I would have expected. Russian losses have been something like 700-750,000 dead and wounded, which is 50x higher than Afghanistan. Given how few young people there are in Russia, I would have expected mass demonstrations from mothers, but that's simply not happened.

    - Early on in the conflict, the impact on the Russian economy was relatively modest. That is not the case any more. Inflation has started rising, with the price of vegetables and onions soaring (+70% this year) due to a lack of workers on farms (because they've all been shipped off to Ukraine).

    - I've been surprised by the lack of trouble in other part's of Russia's empire. I would have expected the Chechens to kick off, simply because troops from Moscow can't come running any more.

    - Can North Korea make a difference? Well, there are lots of North Koreans, but they are likely to be extremely poor and how well equipped will they be?

    Also , something like 30% of Ukraine's population is now in occupied territory.

    The west's policy of slow timing weapons deliveries has cost Ukraine a serious amount of both people and territory. Assuming that Trump turns off the tap completely, which seems likely, they probably have sufficient resources to survive next year. But it gets pretty uncertain beyond that.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,936
    Had anyone heard of the £5bn over two years for farmers; the largest ever government investment in sustainable food, before today?

    Or have any idea what it means?

    I hope it doesn't mean that Dale Vince gets to cover 10% of farmland with solar panels, to make our food "sustainable"
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,763
    Pulpstar said:

    On the GOP side, the big question is to my mind - which Trump gets the VP spot ?

    One of the Kushners.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,849
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    On Ukraine:

    - Neither Russia, nor Ukraine has an unlimited supply of soldiers. As always, some people seem to note one side's losses without noting the other's.

    - Like the First World War, losses in offensive operations have been utterly horrendous. Casualty ratios of 6-1 are the norm here. This makes a successful Ukrainian offensive exceptionally difficult, but it also largely removes Russia's population advantage as they will use up at least as high a % of the population as Ukraine if they're attacking.

    - Defenders will always have more people who will fight. If London was under attack by the Russians, every man, woman and child (except perhaps Malc) would grab arms to defend it. It's much harder for the invader.

    - Putin has been much better at clamping down on internal dissent than I would have expected. Russian losses have been something like 700-750,000 dead and wounded, which is 50x higher than Afghanistan. Given how few young people there are in Russia, I would have expected mass demonstrations from mothers, but that's simply not happened.

    - Early on in the conflict, the impact on the Russian economy was relatively modest. That is not the case any more. Inflation has started rising, with the price of vegetables and onions soaring (+70% this year) due to a lack of workers on farms (because they've all been shipped off to Ukraine).

    - I've been surprised by the lack of trouble in other part's of Russia's empire. I would have expected the Chechens to kick off, simply because troops from Moscow can't come running any more.

    - Can North Korea make a difference? Well, there are lots of North Koreans, but they are likely to be extremely poor and how well equipped will they be?

    Also , something like 30% of Ukraine's population is now in occupied territory.

    The west's policy of slow timing weapons deliveries has cost Ukraine a serious amount of both people and territory. Assuming that Trump turns off the tap completely, which seems likely, they probably have sufficient resources to survive next year. But it gets pretty uncertain beyond that.
    The defenestration of Boris Johnson at the peak of the war was a huge gift to Putin and a massive act of self-indulgence on the part of the British elite. He was the only statesman from the old West who saw things clearly.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,238
    williamglenn said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    Really? Biden was a terrible candidate who never made it far in the regular Democratic primaries prior to 2020, and he only won then because Iowa fucked up.

    The Democrats - as Nate Silver noted in his post election write-up - have a pretty strong slate of new, youngish popular moderates, with people like Jon Ossoff and Andy Bashear.

    You just don't tend to see them, because Clinton's generation has been at the fore for so long.
    He got 81 million votes !
    There were 81 million votes against Donald Trump.
    Trump is almost unique in increasing his popular vote total in three consecutive elections.
    Grover Cleveland achieved the feat too, though he did not increase his popular vote % in his 3 election runs.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,238
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    On the GOP side, the big question is to my mind - which Trump gets the VP spot ?

    One of the Kushners.
    Could be Lara if DeSantis sends her to the senate.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,540
    a
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    david_herdson said:

    If social media reports are accurate (so huge dollop of caution), it looks like the Storm Shadow target was the Russian's Kursk command centre.

    That's probably just people hearing the bangs, then looking at a map to see what's around.
    Maybe. One the other hand, knocking out Russian C3I has paid dividends before.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,936
    X
    Malmesbury said:

    a

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    david_herdson said:

    If social media reports are accurate (so huge dollop of caution), it looks like the Storm Shadow target was the Russian's Kursk command centre.

    That's probably just people hearing the bangs, then looking at a map to see what's around.
    Maybe. One the other hand, knocking out Russian C3I has paid dividends before.
    I x like you a
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,727
    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,877
    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    Another month of this until the days start getting longer. Winter in this country is truly bleak.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,238
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    Another month of this until the days start getting longer. Winter in this country is truly bleak.
    Evenings start getting lighter after the 13th.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,285
    williamglenn said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    Really? Biden was a terrible candidate who never made it far in the regular Democratic primaries prior to 2020, and he only won then because Iowa fucked up.

    The Democrats - as Nate Silver noted in his post election write-up - have a pretty strong slate of new, youngish popular moderates, with people like Jon Ossoff and Andy Bashear.

    You just don't tend to see them, because Clinton's generation has been at the fore for so long.
    He got 81 million votes !
    There were 81 million votes against Donald Trump.
    Trump is almost unique in increasing his popular vote total in three consecutive elections.
    That's true. Albeit the US population does rise every year, so pretty much every candidate outpolls their predecessor.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,442
    Malmesbury said:

    As a social liberal, it is clear that the real danger in elections is the election of non-social liberals.

    So we need to ban voting. To protect democracy.

    The Vetinari approach to democracy. One man, one vote.


  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,285
    Malmesbury said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    Really? Biden was a terrible candidate who never made it far in the regular Democratic primaries prior to 2020, and he only won then because Iowa fucked up.

    The Democrats - as Nate Silver noted in his post election write-up - have a pretty strong slate of new, youngish popular moderates, with people like Jon Ossoff and Andy Bashear.

    You just don't tend to see them, because Clinton's generation has been at the fore for so long.
    Hmmm

    Year,Democrats,Republicans
    1972,29173222,47168710
    1976,40831881,39148634
    1980,35480115,43903230
    1984,37577352,54455472
    1988,41809074,48886097
    1992,44909806,39104550
    1996,47402357,39198755
    2000,50999897,50456002
    2004,59028444,62040610
    2008,69498516,59948323
    2012,65915795,60933504
    2016,65853514,62984828
    2020,81283501,74223975
    2024,71900000,77200000

    2024 is estimated, of course.
    Your point being that the US population has grown over time?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,911
    edited November 20
    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    Kind offer, but no thanks. You're not my type. And that's the case even if it's not dark... ;)
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,442
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    Another month of this until the days start getting longer. Winter in this country is truly bleak.
    It's winter. You've only just realised it's cold and dark in the winter?
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,936
    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    It's not officially dark in Marlborough until I have to turn my head torch on

    Half an hour yet, at least
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,757
    edited November 20
    williamglenn said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    Really? Biden was a terrible candidate who never made it far in the regular Democratic primaries prior to 2020, and he only won then because Iowa fucked up.

    The Democrats - as Nate Silver noted in his post election write-up - have a pretty strong slate of new, youngish popular moderates, with people like Jon Ossoff and Andy Bashear.

    You just don't tend to see them, because Clinton's generation has been at the fore for so long.
    He got 81 million votes !
    There were 81 million votes against Donald Trump.
    Trump is almost unique in increasing his popular vote total in three consecutive elections.
    That's not really all that meaningful when there are so few major party candidates who have run in three successive elections. I think FDR is the only other since the Civil War? Bryan and Nixon are the only other ones to have stood in three, but in their cases, non-consecutively.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,877
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Further evidence of the mediocrity of this government.

    'Schools should cut down on museums and theatre trips and remove references in lessons to middle class activities like skiing holidays a government curriculum review will be held.'

    https://x.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1859215458395656486

    The government's education/curriculum reivew is a Woke Disaster in the making. They've got the most insane Woke twats from academe advising them, proper Britain-haters and "post-colonialist gender studies" experts
    I actually despise them now, I even think Corbyn and McDonnell would have been better. Yes they might have hit big corporates a bit more and been a bit more anti Israel but they didn't hate our farmers, small businesses and pensioners as much as this one does and McDonnell at least had some vague intellectual traints unlike the philistine and woke Starmer and Reeves
    Yep. They are actually STUPID, and malevolently so

    And let's look at their record so far

    Inflation: rising
    Unemployment: rising
    Growth: nearly extinguished
    Taxes: rising
    Debt: rising
    Public services: cut
    Defence: cut
    Pensioners: told to freeze
    Farmers: told to fuck off
    Retailers: told to jump in a lake
    Chagos Islands: given away for nothing, indeed we have to PAY


    That's just the first five months. And that's ignoring all the petty grift and corruption
    The last Tory government may have been out of ideas and exhausted but they weren't malevolent like this lot. They are targeting the countryside because they voted for Brexit and they want to put these farmers into poverty and destroy the idea of the family farm as retribution. Labour have been waiting 8 years since 2016 to get their revenge on the countryside and it's barely even been disguised.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,540
    rcs1000 said:

    Malmesbury said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    Really? Biden was a terrible candidate who never made it far in the regular Democratic primaries prior to 2020, and he only won then because Iowa fucked up.

    The Democrats - as Nate Silver noted in his post election write-up - have a pretty strong slate of new, youngish popular moderates, with people like Jon Ossoff and Andy Bashear.

    You just don't tend to see them, because Clinton's generation has been at the fore for so long.
    Hmmm

    Year,Democrats,Republicans
    1972,29173222,47168710
    1976,40831881,39148634
    1980,35480115,43903230
    1984,37577352,54455472
    1988,41809074,48886097
    1992,44909806,39104550
    1996,47402357,39198755
    2000,50999897,50456002
    2004,59028444,62040610
    2008,69498516,59948323
    2012,65915795,60933504
    2016,65853514,62984828
    2020,81283501,74223975
    2024,71900000,77200000

    2024 is estimated, of course.
    Your point being that the US population has grown over time?
    To say that someone is a terrible candidate, who got the highest vote for his party, ever... seems wrong. Harris dropped that by over 9 million....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,561
    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    I'd probably rank the recent Dem candidates as follows:

    08 Obama
    12 Obama
    20 Biden
    16 Clinton
    24 Harris
    24 Biden

    I'd put 16 Clinton beneath 24 Harris

    Clinton was woeful
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,877
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    Another month of this until the days start getting longer. Winter in this country is truly bleak.
    Evenings start getting lighter after the 13th.
    Winter solstice is December 21st.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,238
    Malmesbury said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Malmesbury said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    Really? Biden was a terrible candidate who never made it far in the regular Democratic primaries prior to 2020, and he only won then because Iowa fucked up.

    The Democrats - as Nate Silver noted in his post election write-up - have a pretty strong slate of new, youngish popular moderates, with people like Jon Ossoff and Andy Bashear.

    You just don't tend to see them, because Clinton's generation has been at the fore for so long.
    Hmmm

    Year,Democrats,Republicans
    1972,29173222,47168710
    1976,40831881,39148634
    1980,35480115,43903230
    1984,37577352,54455472
    1988,41809074,48886097
    1992,44909806,39104550
    1996,47402357,39198755
    2000,50999897,50456002
    2004,59028444,62040610
    2008,69498516,59948323
    2012,65915795,60933504
    2016,65853514,62984828
    2020,81283501,74223975
    2024,71900000,77200000

    2024 is estimated, of course.
    Your point being that the US population has grown over time?
    To say that someone is a terrible candidate, who got the highest vote for his party, ever... seems wrong. Harris dropped that by over 9 million....
    One thing that the slow west coast counting does is impact the collective memory of how badly or well Democrat candidates did.

    The gap is nearer 2.5 million now.

    74,232,401 votes Harris 24
    76,789,287 votes Trump 24
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 3,720
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Further evidence of the mediocrity of this government.

    'Schools should cut down on museums and theatre trips and remove references in lessons to middle class activities like skiing holidays a government curriculum review will be held.'

    https://x.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1859215458395656486

    The government's education/curriculum reivew is a Woke Disaster in the making. They've got the most insane Woke twats from academe advising them, proper Britain-haters and "post-colonialist gender studies" experts
    I actually despise them now, I even think Corbyn and McDonnell would have been better. Yes they might have hit big corporates a bit more and been a bit more anti Israel but they didn't hate our farmers, small businesses and pensioners as much as this one does and McDonnell at least had some vague intellectual traints unlike the philistine and woke Starmer and Reeves
    Yep. They are actually STUPID, and malevolently so

    And let's look at their record so far

    Inflation: rising
    Unemployment: rising
    Growth: nearly extinguished
    Taxes: rising
    Debt: rising
    Public services: cut
    Defence: cut
    Pensioners: told to freeze
    Farmers: told to fuck off
    Retailers: told to jump in a lake
    Chagos Islands: given away for nothing, indeed we have to PAY


    That's just the first five months. And that's ignoring all the petty grift and corruption
    The last Tory government may have been out of ideas and exhausted but they weren't malevolent like this lot. They are targeting the countryside because they voted for Brexit and they want to put these farmers into poverty and destroy the idea of the family farm as retribution. Labour have been waiting 8 years since 2016 to get their revenge on the countryside and it's barely even been disguised.
    The last Tory government were totally malevolent.

    They cut HS2 for no reason other than spite.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,540
    twistedfirestopper3 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    Another month of this until the days start getting longer. Winter in this country is truly bleak.
    It's winter. You've only just realised it's cold and dark in the winter?
    And the seasons have been the seasons, in terms of daylight, for how many billions of years?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,877
    Casino_Royale said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    I'd probably rank the recent Dem candidates as follows:

    08 Obama
    12 Obama
    20 Biden
    16 Clinton
    24 Harris
    24 Biden

    I'd put 16 Clinton beneath 24 Harris

    Clinton was woeful
    Clinton won the popular vote and Trump was an unknown then. Kamala lost to a known entity both in ECVs and popular vote, her campaign was definitely worse.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,679
    No surprise that it's people from the two main parties calling for polls to be banned.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 3,720
    I’ve just been out for a run. It’s the first day my hands have felt very, very cold.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,763
    BlancheLivermore said:

    I wonder how detailed anec

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    So messaging aubergines and peaches emojis can lead to misunderstandings.

    ***Innocent Face***

    Are Reform the aubergines, and Lib Dems the peaches?
    Yes.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,606
    BatteryCorrectHorse said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Further evidence of the mediocrity of this government.

    'Schools should cut down on museums and theatre trips and remove references in lessons to middle class activities like skiing holidays a government curriculum review will be held.'

    https://x.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1859215458395656486

    The government's education/curriculum reivew is a Woke Disaster in the making. They've got the most insane Woke twats from academe advising them, proper Britain-haters and "post-colonialist gender studies" experts
    I actually despise them now, I even think Corbyn and McDonnell would have been better. Yes they might have hit big corporates a bit more and been a bit more anti Israel but they didn't hate our farmers, small businesses and pensioners as much as this one does and McDonnell at least had some vague intellectual traints unlike the philistine and woke Starmer and Reeves
    Yep. They are actually STUPID, and malevolently so

    And let's look at their record so far

    Inflation: rising
    Unemployment: rising
    Growth: nearly extinguished
    Taxes: rising
    Debt: rising
    Public services: cut
    Defence: cut
    Pensioners: told to freeze
    Farmers: told to fuck off
    Retailers: told to jump in a lake
    Chagos Islands: given away for nothing, indeed we have to PAY


    That's just the first five months. And that's ignoring all the petty grift and corruption
    The last Tory government may have been out of ideas and exhausted but they weren't malevolent like this lot. They are targeting the countryside because they voted for Brexit and they want to put these farmers into poverty and destroy the idea of the family farm as retribution. Labour have been waiting 8 years since 2016 to get their revenge on the countryside and it's barely even been disguised.
    The last Tory government were totally malevolent.

    They cut HS2 for no reason other than spite.
    And because it was a pointless waste of billions.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,238
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    Another month of this until the days start getting longer. Winter in this country is truly bleak.
    Evenings start getting lighter after the 13th.
    Winter solstice is December 21st.
    Yes, but solar noon moves forward quicker than the length of day between the 13th and 21st.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,551
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    So messaging aubergines and peaches emojis can lead to misunderstandings.

    ***Innocent Face***

    I wouldn't recommend pineapples either.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,561
    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    We've got this for 4 months.

    Are you going to post this at 4pm every day?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,056
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    Another month of this until the days start getting longer. Winter in this country is truly bleak.
    Thing is, it is not actually dark at 4pm if Leon bothers to look out of his London window. Scotland, maybe.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,849
    https://x.com/haynesdeborah/status/1859240547371659384

    BREAKING: The UK will scrap five warships, dozens of military helicopters and a fleet of drones to save money despite growing threats from Russia and a war raging in Europe.
    John Healey, the defence secretary, announced the dramatic move in parliament on Wednesday, saying it would save up to half a billion pounds over the next five years. The defence secretary described the equipment being axed as “outdated” and said the “common sense” decision to retire them was long overdue.
    He signalled the decision was part of a plan to restructure and modernise the armed forces, which have already been significantly reduced in size following decades of cost-saving cuts, with new capabilities due to come on line to replace the gaps.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,320
    So, since everyone hates inheritance taxes, I propose we ditch IHT altogether and replace it & CGT with a wealth tax. In fact, lets go the whole hog & bundle Council Tax in there too!

    Guaranteed to be politically popular with no pushback whatsoever. /ahem/.

    (It probably is the right thing to do economically - if you’re going to have CGT & IHT then really what you’ve done is implement a very lumpy wealth tax.)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,849
    BatteryCorrectHorse said:

    I’ve just been out for a run. It’s the first day my hands have felt very, very cold.

    Do you have any running gloves?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,561
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    Another month of this until the days start getting longer. Winter in this country is truly bleak.
    Not as bleak as in the Nordics which is, presumably, why so many top themselves.

    It doesn't bother me excessively, although it's not my preference: I view it as a quid pro quo for the very long summer evenings we get in May, June and July.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,056
    Pulpstar said:

    Malmesbury said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Malmesbury said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    Really? Biden was a terrible candidate who never made it far in the regular Democratic primaries prior to 2020, and he only won then because Iowa fucked up.

    The Democrats - as Nate Silver noted in his post election write-up - have a pretty strong slate of new, youngish popular moderates, with people like Jon Ossoff and Andy Bashear.

    You just don't tend to see them, because Clinton's generation has been at the fore for so long.
    Hmmm

    Year,Democrats,Republicans
    1972,29173222,47168710
    1976,40831881,39148634
    1980,35480115,43903230
    1984,37577352,54455472
    1988,41809074,48886097
    1992,44909806,39104550
    1996,47402357,39198755
    2000,50999897,50456002
    2004,59028444,62040610
    2008,69498516,59948323
    2012,65915795,60933504
    2016,65853514,62984828
    2020,81283501,74223975
    2024,71900000,77200000

    2024 is estimated, of course.
    Your point being that the US population has grown over time?
    To say that someone is a terrible candidate, who got the highest vote for his party, ever... seems wrong. Harris dropped that by over 9 million....
    One thing that the slow west coast counting does is impact the collective memory of how badly or well Democrat candidates did.

    The gap is nearer 2.5 million now.

    74,232,401 votes Harris 24
    76,789,287 votes Trump 24
    Betfair still has not settled the vote percentage markets.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,727
    edited November 20
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    Another month of this until the days start getting longer. Winter in this country is truly bleak.
    Still, at least we have free speech, secure borders, strong civil liberties, a decent and honest police force, beautiful town centres, clean streets, great public services, a fine health system, and no chance of going to jail because of a Facebook post. They can't take all THAT away from us
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 3,720
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    BatteryCorrectHorse said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Further evidence of the mediocrity of this government.

    'Schools should cut down on museums and theatre trips and remove references in lessons to middle class activities like skiing holidays a government curriculum review will be held.'

    https://x.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1859215458395656486

    The government's education/curriculum reivew is a Woke Disaster in the making. They've got the most insane Woke twats from academe advising them, proper Britain-haters and "post-colonialist gender studies" experts
    I actually despise them now, I even think Corbyn and McDonnell would have been better. Yes they might have hit big corporates a bit more and been a bit more anti Israel but they didn't hate our farmers, small businesses and pensioners as much as this one does and McDonnell at least had some vague intellectual traints unlike the philistine and woke Starmer and Reeves
    Yep. They are actually STUPID, and malevolently so

    And let's look at their record so far

    Inflation: rising
    Unemployment: rising
    Growth: nearly extinguished
    Taxes: rising
    Debt: rising
    Public services: cut
    Defence: cut
    Pensioners: told to freeze
    Farmers: told to fuck off
    Retailers: told to jump in a lake
    Chagos Islands: given away for nothing, indeed we have to PAY


    That's just the first five months. And that's ignoring all the petty grift and corruption
    The last Tory government may have been out of ideas and exhausted but they weren't malevolent like this lot. They are targeting the countryside because they voted for Brexit and they want to put these farmers into poverty and destroy the idea of the family farm as retribution. Labour have been waiting 8 years since 2016 to get their revenge on the countryside and it's barely even been disguised.
    The last Tory government were totally malevolent.

    They cut HS2 for no reason other than spite.
    And because it was a pointless waste of billions.
    Richard on this you are simply wrong. The extra capacity is vital.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,936
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Further evidence of the mediocrity of this government.

    'Schools should cut down on museums and theatre trips and remove references in lessons to middle class activities like skiing holidays a government curriculum review will be held.'

    https://x.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1859215458395656486

    The government's education/curriculum reivew is a Woke Disaster in the making. They've got the most insane Woke twats from academe advising them, proper Britain-haters and "post-colonialist gender studies" experts
    I actually despise them now, I even think Corbyn and McDonnell would have been better. Yes they might have hit big corporates a bit more and been a bit more anti Israel but they didn't hate our farmers, small businesses and pensioners as much as this one does and McDonnell at least had some vague intellectual traints unlike the philistine and woke Starmer and Reeves
    Yep. They are actually STUPID, and malevolently so

    And let's look at their record so far

    Inflation: rising
    Unemployment: rising
    Growth: nearly extinguished
    Taxes: rising
    Debt: rising
    Public services: cut
    Defence: cut
    Pensioners: told to freeze
    Farmers: told to fuck off
    Retailers: told to jump in a lake
    Chagos Islands: given away for nothing, indeed we have to PAY


    That's just the first five months. And that's ignoring all the petty grift and corruption
    The last Tory government may have been out of ideas and exhausted but they weren't malevolent like this lot. They are targeting the countryside because they voted for Brexit and they want to put these farmers into poverty and destroy the idea of the family farm as retribution. Labour have been waiting 8 years since 2016 to get their revenge on the countryside and it's barely even been disguised.
    And they've taxed employment and education

    Or rather, they've taxed the parts of employment and education that they can't control

    They've kind of helped the people earning minimum wage, but they've screwed the people (like me) earning a bit over it, and completely completely shafted the people employing us

    The reason that they've only "kind of helped" the people earning minimum wage is that many of those jobs will inevitably be lost
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 3,720
    williamglenn said:

    BatteryCorrectHorse said:

    I’ve just been out for a run. It’s the first day my hands have felt very, very cold.

    Do you have any running gloves?
    I do but they’re not for me. I just deal with my hands being cold.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,551
    twistedfirestopper3 said:

    Malmesbury said:

    As a social liberal, it is clear that the real danger in elections is the election of non-social liberals.

    So we need to ban voting. To protect democracy.

    The Vetinari approach to democracy. One man, one vote.

    "In a democracy, it is your vote that counts. In feudalism, it is your Count that votes"
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 3,720
    I would be a strong advocate for the clocks going two hours forward in the summer.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,320
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    BatteryCorrectHorse said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Further evidence of the mediocrity of this government.

    'Schools should cut down on museums and theatre trips and remove references in lessons to middle class activities like skiing holidays a government curriculum review will be held.'

    https://x.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1859215458395656486

    The government's education/curriculum reivew is a Woke Disaster in the making. They've got the most insane Woke twats from academe advising them, proper Britain-haters and "post-colonialist gender studies" experts
    I actually despise them now, I even think Corbyn and McDonnell would have been better. Yes they might have hit big corporates a bit more and been a bit more anti Israel but they didn't hate our farmers, small businesses and pensioners as much as this one does and McDonnell at least had some vague intellectual traints unlike the philistine and woke Starmer and Reeves
    Yep. They are actually STUPID, and malevolently so

    And let's look at their record so far

    Inflation: rising
    Unemployment: rising
    Growth: nearly extinguished
    Taxes: rising
    Debt: rising
    Public services: cut
    Defence: cut
    Pensioners: told to freeze
    Farmers: told to fuck off
    Retailers: told to jump in a lake
    Chagos Islands: given away for nothing, indeed we have to PAY


    That's just the first five months. And that's ignoring all the petty grift and corruption
    The last Tory government may have been out of ideas and exhausted but they weren't malevolent like this lot. They are targeting the countryside because they voted for Brexit and they want to put these farmers into poverty and destroy the idea of the family farm as retribution. Labour have been waiting 8 years since 2016 to get their revenge on the countryside and it's barely even been disguised.
    The last Tory government were totally malevolent.

    They cut HS2 for no reason other than spite.
    And because it was a pointless waste of billions.
    Are we going to re-hash this /again/ ? The pointless waste of billions was burying half the line so rich landowners (oh, look it’s them again...) in the Cotswolds wouldn’t have their views ruined. Oh, plus the bat thing.

    The real waste was the waste of building this expensive half, then deciding to ditch the cheap half that actually made the whole thing worthwhile. Thanks to Sunak we’ve built a very expensive railway to no-where that achieves nothing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,849
    edited November 20
    Phil said:

    So, since everyone hates inheritance taxes, I propose we ditch IHT altogether and replace it & CGT with a wealth tax. In fact, lets go the whole hog & bundle Council Tax in there too!

    Guaranteed to be politically popular with no pushback whatsoever. /ahem/.

    (It probably is the right thing to do economically - if you’re going to have CGT & IHT then really what you’ve done is implement a very lumpy wealth tax.)

    We could go full Trump and revert to primarily funding the government through tariffs on imports.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,694
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    Another month of this until the days start getting longer. Winter in this country is truly bleak.
    Evenings start getting lighter after the 13th.
    Winter solstice is December 21st.
    That's as maybe, but evenings get lighter after the 13th.

    Anyway, I quite like winter. An decent walk, finishing in the gloaming, followed by fireside tales. None of this 40C nonsense.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,727
    edited November 20
    Casino_Royale said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    We've got this for 4 months.

    Are you going to post this at 4pm every day?
    Yes

    Because it amuses me, the inane and pointless repetition

    THAT SAID, there is a tiny tiny chance I might not be in the UK in Jan and Feb, so you'll be spared at that point
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,757
    BatteryCorrectHorse said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    BatteryCorrectHorse said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Further evidence of the mediocrity of this government.

    'Schools should cut down on museums and theatre trips and remove references in lessons to middle class activities like skiing holidays a government curriculum review will be held.'

    https://x.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1859215458395656486

    The government's education/curriculum reivew is a Woke Disaster in the making. They've got the most insane Woke twats from academe advising them, proper Britain-haters and "post-colonialist gender studies" experts
    I actually despise them now, I even think Corbyn and McDonnell would have been better. Yes they might have hit big corporates a bit more and been a bit more anti Israel but they didn't hate our farmers, small businesses and pensioners as much as this one does and McDonnell at least had some vague intellectual traints unlike the philistine and woke Starmer and Reeves
    Yep. They are actually STUPID, and malevolently so

    And let's look at their record so far

    Inflation: rising
    Unemployment: rising
    Growth: nearly extinguished
    Taxes: rising
    Debt: rising
    Public services: cut
    Defence: cut
    Pensioners: told to freeze
    Farmers: told to fuck off
    Retailers: told to jump in a lake
    Chagos Islands: given away for nothing, indeed we have to PAY


    That's just the first five months. And that's ignoring all the petty grift and corruption
    The last Tory government may have been out of ideas and exhausted but they weren't malevolent like this lot. They are targeting the countryside because they voted for Brexit and they want to put these farmers into poverty and destroy the idea of the family farm as retribution. Labour have been waiting 8 years since 2016 to get their revenge on the countryside and it's barely even been disguised.
    The last Tory government were totally malevolent.

    They cut HS2 for no reason other than spite.
    And because it was a pointless waste of billions.
    Richard on this you are simply wrong. The extra capacity is vital.
    Actually, it was both. The extra capacity is vital *and* the project cost tens of billions more than it need have, or was estimated to have been going to, before it was cut.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 3,720
    Were billions wasted on HS2. Yes.

    Was HS2 a waste. No.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    FTP. Great post Firestopper. PB's Finest! I just read it to a few friends who I was having lunch with and they loved it and that was without them reading the self serving drivel that you were replying to.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,757
    Leon said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    We've got this for 4 months.

    Are you going to post this at 4pm every day?
    Yes

    Because it amuses me, the inane and pointless repetition
    The irony is that Leon is probably in Singapore or Mauritaus or the Galapagos Islands, where it's not twighlight.

    And he's still on here to argue with tim.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,606
    Phil said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    BatteryCorrectHorse said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Further evidence of the mediocrity of this government.

    'Schools should cut down on museums and theatre trips and remove references in lessons to middle class activities like skiing holidays a government curriculum review will be held.'

    https://x.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1859215458395656486

    The government's education/curriculum reivew is a Woke Disaster in the making. They've got the most insane Woke twats from academe advising them, proper Britain-haters and "post-colonialist gender studies" experts
    I actually despise them now, I even think Corbyn and McDonnell would have been better. Yes they might have hit big corporates a bit more and been a bit more anti Israel but they didn't hate our farmers, small businesses and pensioners as much as this one does and McDonnell at least had some vague intellectual traints unlike the philistine and woke Starmer and Reeves
    Yep. They are actually STUPID, and malevolently so

    And let's look at their record so far

    Inflation: rising
    Unemployment: rising
    Growth: nearly extinguished
    Taxes: rising
    Debt: rising
    Public services: cut
    Defence: cut
    Pensioners: told to freeze
    Farmers: told to fuck off
    Retailers: told to jump in a lake
    Chagos Islands: given away for nothing, indeed we have to PAY


    That's just the first five months. And that's ignoring all the petty grift and corruption
    The last Tory government may have been out of ideas and exhausted but they weren't malevolent like this lot. They are targeting the countryside because they voted for Brexit and they want to put these farmers into poverty and destroy the idea of the family farm as retribution. Labour have been waiting 8 years since 2016 to get their revenge on the countryside and it's barely even been disguised.
    The last Tory government were totally malevolent.

    They cut HS2 for no reason other than spite.
    And because it was a pointless waste of billions.
    Are we going to re-hash this /again/ ? The pointless waste of billions was burying half the line so rich landowners (oh, look it’s them again...) in the Cotswolds wouldn’t have their views ruined. Oh, plus the bat thing.

    The real waste was the waste of building this expensive half, then deciding to ditch the cheap half that actually made the whole thing worthwhile. Thanks to Sunak we’ve built a very expensive railway to no-where that achieves nothing.
    Nope. It ws a massive pointless white elephant from start to finish. It is just just a shame they didn't scrap the whole thing.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,679
    BatteryCorrectHorse said:

    Were billions wasted on HS2. Yes.

    Was HS2 a waste. No.

    Maybe if we'd got a foreign company and mostly foreign people to work on it, it would have been built by now at less cost.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,056
    Andy_JS said:

    No surprise that it's people from the two main parties calling for polls to be banned.

    It isn't though; at least, not in the linked story. It is Tory guru Levido (and maybe some other Conservatives) calling for a ban.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,442
    .
    BatteryCorrectHorse said:

    williamglenn said:

    BatteryCorrectHorse said:

    I’ve just been out for a run. It’s the first day my hands have felt very, very cold.

    Do you have any running gloves?
    I do but they’re not for me. I just deal with my hands being cold.
    I'm the same. I've learned to dress for the second mile, when you're warmed up. I just tough out the first couple of KMs in the bare minimum. I got sick of ending up stuffing gloves and beanie into my jacket pockets, then having to tie the damn jacket around my waist!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,727
    williamglenn said:

    https://x.com/haynesdeborah/status/1859240547371659384

    BREAKING: The UK will scrap five warships, dozens of military helicopters and a fleet of drones to save money despite growing threats from Russia and a war raging in Europe.
    John Healey, the defence secretary, announced the dramatic move in parliament on Wednesday, saying it would save up to half a billion pounds over the next five years. The defence secretary described the equipment being axed as “outdated” and said the “common sense” decision to retire them was long overdue.
    He signalled the decision was part of a plan to restructure and modernise the armed forces, which have already been significantly reduced in size following decades of cost-saving cuts, with new capabilities due to come on line to replace the gaps.

    "Saving half a billion over five years"

    Your daily reminder that we are spending £3.5 BILLION, yearly, just to house asylum seekers in hotels and make sure they have nice private health care and Egyptian cotton pillowslips, and this bill rises every week
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 49
    BlancheLivermore said:

    Had anyone heard of the £5bn over two years for farmers; the largest ever government investment in sustainable food, before today?

    Or have any idea what it means?

    I hope it doesn't mean that Dale Vince gets to cover 10% of farmland with solar panels, to make our food "sustainable"

    Prob the support payments, over 2 years - 2.5bn a year sounds about right. I'd imagine it'll include all SFI payments and any environmental scheme money, countryside stewardship etc. No direct support payments in England anymore, these will be phased out by 2028
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,849
    twistedfirestopper3 said:

    .

    BatteryCorrectHorse said:

    williamglenn said:

    BatteryCorrectHorse said:

    I’ve just been out for a run. It’s the first day my hands have felt very, very cold.

    Do you have any running gloves?
    I do but they’re not for me. I just deal with my hands being cold.
    I'm the same. I've learned to dress for the second mile, when you're warmed up. I just tough out the first couple of KMs in the bare minimum. I got sick of ending up stuffing gloves and beanie into my jacket pockets, then having to tie the damn jacket around my waist!
    Don’t you find that your hands don’t work at the end of it if you do that?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,239
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    BatteryCorrectHorse said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Further evidence of the mediocrity of this government.

    'Schools should cut down on museums and theatre trips and remove references in lessons to middle class activities like skiing holidays a government curriculum review will be held.'

    https://x.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1859215458395656486

    The government's education/curriculum reivew is a Woke Disaster in the making. They've got the most insane Woke twats from academe advising them, proper Britain-haters and "post-colonialist gender studies" experts
    I actually despise them now, I even think Corbyn and McDonnell would have been better. Yes they might have hit big corporates a bit more and been a bit more anti Israel but they didn't hate our farmers, small businesses and pensioners as much as this one does and McDonnell at least had some vague intellectual traints unlike the philistine and woke Starmer and Reeves
    Yep. They are actually STUPID, and malevolently so

    And let's look at their record so far

    Inflation: rising
    Unemployment: rising
    Growth: nearly extinguished
    Taxes: rising
    Debt: rising
    Public services: cut
    Defence: cut
    Pensioners: told to freeze
    Farmers: told to fuck off
    Retailers: told to jump in a lake
    Chagos Islands: given away for nothing, indeed we have to PAY


    That's just the first five months. And that's ignoring all the petty grift and corruption
    The last Tory government may have been out of ideas and exhausted but they weren't malevolent like this lot. They are targeting the countryside because they voted for Brexit and they want to put these farmers into poverty and destroy the idea of the family farm as retribution. Labour have been waiting 8 years since 2016 to get their revenge on the countryside and it's barely even been disguised.
    The last Tory government were totally malevolent.

    They cut HS2 for no reason other than spite.
    And because it was a pointless waste of billions.
    And Labour endorsed it this week by confirming HS2 will be completed Euston to Birmingham only
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,727
    edited November 20
    Britain is going to be the first country to go bankrupt, pauperise its own citizens, and leave the nation utterly defenceless, just so it can accommodate people who hate us who come to the country illegally
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,654
    twistedfirestopper3 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    Another month of this until the days start getting longer. Winter in this country is truly bleak.
    It's winter. You've only just realised it's cold and dark in the winter?
    It's 21C here in Malaga. A warm breeze and still bright. T shirt and shorts.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,561
    MaxPB said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest, I don't think the Democrats will have as strong a candidate as the 2020 version of Biden for quite a while.

    I'd probably rank the recent Dem candidates as follows:

    08 Obama
    12 Obama
    20 Biden
    16 Clinton
    24 Harris
    24 Biden

    I'd put 16 Clinton beneath 24 Harris

    Clinton was woeful
    Clinton won the popular vote and Trump was an unknown then. Kamala lost to a known entity both in ECVs and popular vote, her campaign was definitely worse.
    The result was worse but I'd say Clinton's campaign was worse.

    She didn't even touch the crucial States and called half of her opponents deplorable.

    Very arrogant.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,606
    Phil said:

    So, since everyone hates inheritance taxes, I propose we ditch IHT altogether and replace it & CGT with a wealth tax. In fact, lets go the whole hog & bundle Council Tax in there too!

    Guaranteed to be politically popular with no pushback whatsoever. /ahem/.

    (It probably is the right thing to do economically - if you’re going to have CGT & IHT then really what you’ve done is implement a very lumpy wealth tax.)

    Nope. Just beef up CGT. Tax at the point the profit is realised
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,757
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, dark already at 4pm

    Another month of this until the days start getting longer. Winter in this country is truly bleak.
    Evenings start getting lighter after the 13th.
    Winter solstice is December 21st.
    Yes but the shortest day is not the earliest sunset. The transitions are staggered. The earliest sunset is usually around 13th to 15th December and the latest sunrise is early January.

    The Solstice is just the day on which the combination of the two gives the shortest day
    It's also not always the 21st December - although it is this year: 0921 GMT if we're going to be precise about it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,849
    Leon said:

    williamglenn said:

    https://x.com/haynesdeborah/status/1859240547371659384

    BREAKING: The UK will scrap five warships, dozens of military helicopters and a fleet of drones to save money despite growing threats from Russia and a war raging in Europe.
    John Healey, the defence secretary, announced the dramatic move in parliament on Wednesday, saying it would save up to half a billion pounds over the next five years. The defence secretary described the equipment being axed as “outdated” and said the “common sense” decision to retire them was long overdue.
    He signalled the decision was part of a plan to restructure and modernise the armed forces, which have already been significantly reduced in size following decades of cost-saving cuts, with new capabilities due to come on line to replace the gaps.

    "Saving half a billion over five years"

    Your daily reminder that we are spending £3.5 BILLION, yearly, just to house asylum seekers in hotels and make sure they have nice private health care and Egyptian cotton pillowslips, and this bill rises every week
    We need to snap out of the delusion that this gives us some kind of soft power advantage, or to believe that other countries will be encouraged follow our example.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,561
    Andy_JS said:

    BatteryCorrectHorse said:

    Were billions wasted on HS2. Yes.

    Was HS2 a waste. No.

    Maybe if we'd got a foreign company and mostly foreign people to work on it, it would have been built by now at less cost.
    No, that's a lot of nonsense.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,320
    Leon said:

    williamglenn said:

    https://x.com/haynesdeborah/status/1859240547371659384

    BREAKING: The UK will scrap five warships, dozens of military helicopters and a fleet of drones to save money despite growing threats from Russia and a war raging in Europe.
    John Healey, the defence secretary, announced the dramatic move in parliament on Wednesday, saying it would save up to half a billion pounds over the next five years. The defence secretary described the equipment being axed as “outdated” and said the “common sense” decision to retire them was long overdue.
    He signalled the decision was part of a plan to restructure and modernise the armed forces, which have already been significantly reduced in size following decades of cost-saving cuts, with new capabilities due to come on line to replace the gaps.

    "Saving half a billion over five years"

    Your daily reminder that we are spending £3.5 BILLION, yearly, just to house asylum seekers in hotels and make sure they have nice private health care and Egyptian cotton pillowslips, and this bill rises every week
    The money saved is being spent on other defense kit / people.

    & the asylum backlog is the fault of the last government. Does anyone have any current figures? Is it going up or down?
This discussion has been closed.