politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The polling data on immigration is perhaps more nuanced tha

System · December 2014

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The polling data on immigration is perhaps more nuanced than many think

Via @OliverCooper Views of different sorts of immigration from YouGov
pic.twitter.com/MSeQ0wDlA1

Steven_Whaley · December 2014

So it's all about money then? We'll let you into the UK if you bribe us? The lower half of that table is pretty depressing.

isam · December 2014

More or less the UKIP vision of immigration

No surprise then that it's in line with public opinion and a Green is horrified!

MarkSenior · December 2014

isam said:
More or less the UKIP vision of immigration

No surprise then that it's in line with public opinion and a Green is horrified!

Not good news for Farage's wife and relatives .

MaxPB · December 2014

So yes to rich investors, yes to students and yes to highly paid and highly skilled migrants. No to unskilled eastern Europeans. UKIP still winning by proposing a points system.

GeoffM · December 2014

MarkSenior said:

isam said:
More or less the UKIP vision of immigration

No surprise then that it's in line with public opinion and a Green is horrified!
Not good news for Farage's wife and relatives .

Why not?

Roger · December 2014

Extraordinary that 25% of people want to stop people coming to study at our universities. We really do have a section of our population who are unbelievably stupid and small minded.

Happily I suspect they are all able to fit in Farage's telephone box and being well into their dotage most wont be around for too long

MarkSenior · December 2014

GeoffM said:

MarkSenior said:

isam said:
More or less the UKIP vision of immigration

No surprise then that it's in line with public opinion and a Green is horrified!
Not good news for Farage's wife and relatives .
Why not?

Are you really as thick and dim witted as your posts on here make you out to be ?

Floater · December 2014

MarkSenior said:

GeoffM said:

MarkSenior said:

isam said:
More or less the UKIP vision of immigration

No surprise then that it's in line with public opinion and a Green is horrified!
Not good news for Farage's wife and relatives .
Why not?
Are you really as thick and dim witted as your posts on here make you out to be ?

Are you really as nasty and waspish as your posts make you out to be?

Danny565 · December 2014

So this backs up the argument that, for most people, being anti-immigration is not really about being "racist" at all or hating all immigrants just because they're immigrants, but simply wanting to stop British low-paid/"low-skilled" workers having to face unfairly stiff competition and have their wages dragged down. An argument I have some sympathy with (although a bit disappointed to see so many people opposed to letting in refugees fleeing war/persecution).

MikeSmithson · December 2014

I think Mr. Senior is referring to the fact that Mrs Farage is German.

isam · December 2014

MikeSmithson said:
I think Mr. Senior is referring to the fact that Mrs Farage is German.

Which category does she fit into?

kle4 · December 2014

Seems about right. The only surprise for me is probably the relatives one being so negative, but as had been pointed out there are reasons for the majority probably being against that, it's just the amount that surprises me.

MikeK · December 2014

clive langley ‏@brisfox Dec 14
John Humphrys admits BBC ignored immigration in case it seemed racist
http://dailym.ai/1yNGuVM via @MailOnline

The bastards who have done most to help make Britain a multicultural backwater are beginning to fear the heat of the people.

GeoffM · December 2014

MikeSmithson said:
I think Mr. Senior is referring to the fact that Mrs Farage is German.

Thank you; although I think everyone is quite aware of this fact.

It doesn't explain why Mr Senior thinks this is "Not good news for Farage's wife and relatives"

isam · December 2014

Off topic

Is anyone aware of the story behind the smashing pumpkins song 'disarm'?

About child abuse, interesting lyrics

Charles · December 2014

All of which supports my fundamental view that the British people, taken as a whole, demonstrate uncommonly good sense.

The only question I'd have issues with is the "wanting to study at UK universities". I am sure that people answering this in question had in mind the mainstream universities. The problem was - which is where the government has sought to crack down - is in the dodgy "language schools" and other fake "universities" effectively offering a visa rather than an education. But this often gets misreported.

Certainly the 4 universities that my family are actively involved in have all seen healthy increases in student numbers and mix

Fenman · December 2014

Past research has shown that the fear of immigration is often based somewhat counter-intuitively not in areas with large immigrant populations, but in areas nearby. Anticipation of the potential effects of immigration versus the far more positive reality.

Equally, it's unavoidable to conclude that the fear of immigration is also most present in those socio-economic groups whose jobs are most threatened by hard-working immigrants prepared to accept the minimum wage.

The final group, of course is the merely prejudiced.

The next government must seek to reassure the first two groups and must not pander to the third; leave that to UKIP.

It's not a difficult task it just requires a bit of guts and courage from politicians of the traditional parties.

Ah. Perhaps it's a bit more difficult than I thought then....

Toms · December 2014

What a magic language is English. We have, for instance
raise and raze.
cleave and cleave
indigent and indigenous.

Roger · December 2014

Sean

"I suggest if you are looking for evidence of "intellectual dotage" you look in a mirror."

Talking of which I bumped into my old copy of White Hotel when I was with my daughter and told her I remember enjoying it many years ago so she now has it.

I hope it's aged well.

Sunil_Prasannan · December 2014

Toms said:
What a magic language is English. We have, for instance
raise and raze.
cleave and cleave
indigent and indigenous.

English is the best language in the world!

Sunil_Prasannan · December 2014

SeanT said:
Anecdotage:

I've just returned from a wretchedly banal Christmas panto at the Hackney Empire. I know pantos are all banal and boring, but this was meant to be better. It wasn't. My older daughter (8) said she hated it, too. Hooray!

ANYWAY, the only interesting bit was when they went to political satire - which they did, twice, briefly. The first was a minor jab at the EU, the second, brief but pointed, was to call the baddy a "UKIP voter" (to cheers from some of the Guardianista Hackney crowd)

UKIP are literally the pantomime villains of British politics.

OH NO THEY'RE NOT

Sunil_Prasannan · December 2014

isam said:
Off topic

Is anyone aware of the story behind the smashing pumpkins song 'disarm'?

About child abuse, interesting lyrics

Depeche Mode had their own song called "A Question Of Time" from back in 1986.

(And the Pumpkins did do a cover of the Mode's "Never Let Me Down Again")

GeoffM · December 2014

Toms said:
What a magic language is English. We have, for instance
raise and raze.
cleave and cleave
indigent and indigenous.

Sort of following that up (and if you don't mind polluting your machine with a link to the HuffPo)

11 Terrific Words Coined By John Milton - basic, ordinary words like 'terrific' and 'enjoyable'. Also, 'space' in a new context.

foxinsoxuk · December 2014

Sunil_Prasannan said:

SeanT said:
Anecdotage:

I've just returned from a wretchedly banal Christmas panto at the Hackney Empire. I know pantos are all banal and boring, but this was meant to be better. It wasn't. My older daughter (8) said she hated it, too. Hooray!

ANYWAY, the only interesting bit was when they went to political satire - which they did, twice, briefly. The first was a minor jab at the EU, the second, brief but pointed, was to call the baddy a "UKIP voter" (to cheers from some of the Guardianista Hackney crowd)

UKIP are literally the pantomime villains of British politics.
OH NO THEY'RE NOT

OH YES THEY ARE!!

JosiasJessop · December 2014

SeanT said:

Fenman said:
Past research has shown that the fear of immigration is often based somewhat counter-intuitively not in areas with large immigrant populations, but in areas nearby. Anticipation of the potential effects of immigration versus the far more positive reality.

Equally, it's unavoidable to conclude that the fear of immigration is also most present in those socio-economic groups whose jobs are most threatened by hard-working immigrants prepared to accept the minimum wage.

The final group, of course is the merely prejudiced.

The next government must seek to reassure the first two groups and must not pander to the third; leave that to UKIP.

It's not a difficult task it just requires a bit of guts and courage from politicians of the traditional parties.

Ah. Perhaps it's a bit more difficult than I thought then....
Do tell us of the "far more positive reality" of immigration, as experienced by the average British citizen. Do you mean the richly positive reality of, say, Rotherham? Luton? Where? Brixton? Where?

Personally, I benefit from immigration. I have a hardworking, relatively cheap Thai cleaner, i hire sober and polite Slovak plumbers, etc; meanwhile my actual migrant neighbours are, in the main, French bankers, Swiss lawyers, cute Spanish student girls and the odd US movie star up the road.

But I am fairly sure my experience is unusual, and I am most reluctant to label my fellow Brits, with understandably less heart-warming stories, as "racist".

My reality: I married a lovely lady from a non-EU country who is now a UK citizen (*), work with many people who come from many parts of the world, and live in a village where, although most are UK born and bred, there are neighbours from all sorts of countries. And we are not particularly posh or rich, and certainly do not live in a particularly rich area.

Immigration has had a net positive on my life in many ways. That's my story, and it be one that is familiar to many. The hideousness of Rotherham, Rochdale etc is far from the whole story either.

Perhaps your experience is not as unusual as you think.

(*) In fact, my seven best mates all married foreigners. It's a tech industry thing. ;-)

Speedy · December 2014

foxinsoxuk said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

SeanT said:
Anecdotage:

I've just returned from a wretchedly banal Christmas panto at the Hackney Empire. I know pantos are all banal and boring, but this was meant to be better. It wasn't. My older daughter (8) said she hated it, too. Hooray!

ANYWAY, the only interesting bit was when they went to political satire - which they did, twice, briefly. The first was a minor jab at the EU, the second, brief but pointed, was to call the baddy a "UKIP voter" (to cheers from some of the Guardianista Hackney crowd)

UKIP are literally the pantomime villains of British politics.
OH NO THEY'RE NOT
OH YES THEY ARE!!

If they are a pantomime villain then who is the white knight? John Rentoul?
And who is playing the damsel? Polly Toynbee?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73JORMGEA3w

"HELP HELP the evil UKIP voter has chained me on the rail tracks! Who will save me?"

Toms · December 2014

GeoffM said:

Toms said:
What a magic language is English. We have, for instance
raise and raze.
cleave and cleave
indigent and indigenous.

Sort of following that up (and if you don't mind polluting your machine with a link to the HuffPo)

11 Terrific Words Coined By John Milton - basic, ordinary words like 'terrific' and 'enjoyable'. Also, 'space' in a new context.

Yes, although that's good, words of a Greek origin do grate a bit for me.
And I prefer Shakespeare's earthy brilliance to that of others.
Yesterday we saw "The Merchant of Venice" at the Almeida. I liked it, for it set me thinking about racism. What was Will like?

Fenman · December 2014

The reality of Rochdale and Rotherham is not only about immigration. It's about a lack of political commitment. Commitment to provide people with a decent education. Commitment to provide more flexible housing policies which would allow people to more easily move their families to where the jobs are. Commitment to end the benefits culture - not by just cutting benefits but by providing jobs that pay well. A fair days work for a fair days pay. Like i say the challenge is there. Will any of the main parties take it on?

AlastairMeeks · December 2014

Toms said:

GeoffM said:

Toms said:
What a magic language is English. We have, for instance
raise and raze.
cleave and cleave
indigent and indigenous.

Sort of following that up (and if you don't mind polluting your machine with a link to the HuffPo)

11 Terrific Words Coined By John Milton - basic, ordinary words like 'terrific' and 'enjoyable'. Also, 'space' in a new context.

Yes, although that's good, words of a Greek origin do grate a bit for me.
And I prefer Shakespeare's earthy brilliance to that of others.
Yesterday we saw "The Merchant of Venice" at the Almeida. I liked it, for it set me thinking about racism. What was Will like?

One of the most marvellous things about Shakespeare is that he allows us to project our own visions of him onto him, even though he produced a very substantial body of work.

Sunil_Prasannan · December 2014

Well, there might well be a couple of stray polls leading into Christmas week, but this week's Sunil on Sunday ELBOW (Electoral Leader-Board Of The Week) for the 12 polls with field-work ened-dates between the 14th and 20th Dec, total sample size 14,091:

Lab 34.2% (+0.6)
Con 31.6% (-1.1)
UKIP 15.0% (-0.4)
LD 7.5% (nc)

Lab lead 2.6% (+1.7)

Take-home:

* Highest Labour lead since 12th October. Though it may seem to be an outlier, three weeks ago (30th Nov), Lab did have a lead of 2.1%.
* Tories down quite a bit, but UKIP also down a touch.
* Whither crossover?

Was it all you were hoping for?

Sunil_Prasannan · December 2014

In graphical form:

Sunil Prasannan ‏@Sunil_P2 · 1m1 minute ago
Final Sunil on Sunday ELBOW (Electoral Leader-Board Of the Week) for 2014: Lab 34.2%, Con 31.6%, UKIP 15.0%, LD 7.5%.

https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/546765234917359617

JosiasJessop · December 2014

SeanT said:

If you "work in the tech industry" and your "seven best friends married foreigners" I would politely suggest you are far from average in your experience of immigration.

To eliminate doubt, I am pro-immigration. I believe ultimately that a society which severely restricts immigration will suffer, especially as most developed countries are ageing badly.

However I would cut the crap and - for example - basically prohibit immigration from majority Muslim countries for now (apart from stupidly rich people), until the enormous problems attached thereto are sorted.

It's probably more to do with the fact that we in the UK are truly terrible at encouraging women into science, engineering and technology, whilst some countries are just terrible. Hence you get countries like India, China and Turkey producing female engineers at a greater proportion than here in the UK. When these women are qualified and faced with either remaining in their home countries and getting married off in a sometimes patriarchal society where they will not be able to work after marriage, or come to countries like the UK where they can have both a better salary and more freedom, they choose the freedom.

And this appears to have been at least part of the reason for several foreign-born engineers of my acquaintance here in the UK. It's a good job too, as there is a massive skills shortage in some sectors of the industry.

Also, techies tend to travel a little as well.

As for whether my experience is average: perhaps it is not. But I don't think it is unusual, either, especially the bit about my village.

Would your "basically prohibit immigration from majority Muslim countries for now (apart from stupidly rich people)" clause stop highly-qualified people coming over from those countries, even if they are cash poor?

Tykejohnno · December 2014

JosiasJessop said:

SeanT said:

Fenman said:
Past research has shown that the fear of immigration is often based somewhat counter-intuitively not in areas with large immigrant populations, but in areas nearby. Anticipation of the potential effects of immigration versus the far more positive reality.

Equally, it's unavoidable to conclude that the fear of immigration is also most present in those socio-economic groups whose jobs are most threatened by hard-working immigrants prepared to accept the minimum wage.

The final group, of course is the merely prejudiced.

The next government must seek to reassure the first two groups and must not pander to the third; leave that to UKIP.

It's not a difficult task it just requires a bit of guts and courage from politicians of the traditional parties.

Ah. Perhaps it's a bit more difficult than I thought then....
Do tell us of the "far more positive reality" of immigration, as experienced by the average British citizen. Do you mean the richly positive reality of, say, Rotherham? Luton? Where? Brixton? Where?

Personally, I benefit from immigration. I have a hardworking, relatively cheap Thai cleaner, i hire sober and polite Slovak plumbers, etc; meanwhile my actual migrant neighbours are, in the main, French bankers, Swiss lawyers, cute Spanish student girls and the odd US movie star up the road.

But I am fairly sure my experience is unusual, and I am most reluctant to label my fellow Brits, with understandably less heart-warming stories, as "racist".
My reality: I married a lovely lady from a non-EU country who is now a UK citizen (*), work with many people who come from many parts of the world, and live in a village where, although most are UK born and bred, there are neighbours from all sorts of countries. And we are not particularly posh or rich, and certainly do not live in a particularly rich area.

Immigration has had a net positive on my life in many ways. That's my story, and it be one that is familiar to many. The hideousness of Rotherham, Rochdale etc is far from the whole story either.

Perhaps your experience is not as unusual as you think.

(*) In fact, my seven best mates all married foreigners. It's a tech industry thing. ;-)

On the street I live,a young white British couple moved in,these were the first british white family to move into our street for at least 20 years.

A couple of months later,they moving,the boyfriend got attacked just walking down the street to his house by a racist Asian gang.

What hope have we when this happens.

foxinsoxuk · December 2014

Speedy said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

SeanT said:
Anecdotage:

I've just returned from a wretchedly banal Christmas panto at the Hackney Empire. I know pantos are all banal and boring, but this was meant to be better. It wasn't. My older daughter (8) said she hated it, too. Hooray!

ANYWAY, the only interesting bit was when they went to political satire - which they did, twice, briefly. The first was a minor jab at the EU, the second, brief but pointed, was to call the baddy a "UKIP voter" (to cheers from some of the Guardianista Hackney crowd)

UKIP are literally the pantomime villains of British politics.
OH NO THEY'RE NOT
OH YES THEY ARE!!
If they are a pantomime villain then who is the white knight? John Rentoul?
And who is playing the damsel? Polly Toynbee?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73JORMGEA3w

"HELP HELP the evil UKIP voter has chained me on the rail tracks! Who will save me?"

I would cast Ken Clarke as the pantomime dame, and the delightful, but slightly androgenous, Yvette Cooper as principal boy.

I think the company should put on Aladdin, as we are going to need a genie to get out of this mess!

bigjohnowls · December 2014

Sunil_Prasannan said:
Well, there might well be a couple of stray polls leading into Christmas week, but this week's Sunil on Sunday ELBOW (Electoral Leader-Board Of The Week) for the 12 polls with field-work ened-dates between the 14th and 20th Dec, total sample size 14,091:

Lab 34.2% (+0.6)
Con 31.6% (-1.1)
UKIP 15.0% (-0.4)
LD 7.5% (nc)

Lab lead 2.6% (+1.7)

Take-home:

* Highest Labour lead since 12th October. Though it may seem to be an outlier, three weeks ago (30th Nov), Lab did have a lead of 2.1%.
* Tories down quite a bit, but UKIP also down a touch.
* Whither crossover?

Was it all you were hoping for?

Merry Christmas indeed

Sunil_Prasannan · December 2014

Sunil Prasannan ‏@Sunil_P2 · 39s39 seconds ago
Labour weekly leads in ELBOW since 17th August: Latest and final Lab lead for 2014 = 2.6%.

https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/546769961419804673

MikeK · December 2014

Good evening. Some UKIP news and propaganda to partake of. LOL

http://ukipdaily.com/radical-islam-left-war-commonwealth/

http://ukipdaily.com/courant-times-sunday-21-december/

Sunil_Prasannan · December 2014

MikeK said:
Good evening. Some UKIP news and propaganda to partake of. LOL

http://ukipdaily.com/radical-islam-left-war-commonwealth/

http://ukipdaily.com/courant-times-sunday-21-december/

"This is not the first time radical Islam has struck the Commonwealth."

Mumbai, 2008?

perdix · December 2014

Fenman said:
Past research has shown that the fear of immigration is often based somewhat counter-intuitively not in areas with large immigrant populations, but in areas nearby. Anticipation of the potential effects of immigration versus the far more positive reality.

Equally, it's unavoidable to conclude that the fear of immigration is also most present in those socio-economic groups whose jobs are most threatened by hard-working immigrants prepared to accept the minimum wage.

The final group, of course is the merely prejudiced.

The next government must seek to reassure the first two groups and must not pander to the third; leave that to UKIP.

It's not a difficult task it just requires a bit of guts and courage from politicians of the traditional parties.

Ah. Perhaps it's a bit more difficult than I thought then....

Politicians can't make significant changes without a change in the rules. Arbitrary actions by the UK could result in millions of EU citizens suing the British State for damages/discrimination. The lawyers would be ready to bring actions and grab their share of the winnings.

Sean_F · December 2014

Tykejohnno said:

JosiasJessop said:

SeanT said:

Fenman said:
Past research has shown that the fear of immigration is often based somewhat counter-intuitively not in areas with large immigrant populations, but in areas nearby. Anticipation of the potential effects of immigration versus the far more positive reality.

Equally, it's unavoidable to conclude that the fear of immigration is also most present in those socio-economic groups whose jobs are most threatened by hard-working immigrants prepared to accept the minimum wage.

The final group, of course is the merely prejudiced.

The next government must seek to reassure the first two groups and must not pander to the third; leave that to UKIP.

It's not a difficult task it just requires a bit of guts and courage from politicians of the traditional parties.

Ah. Perhaps it's a bit more difficult than I thought then....
Do tell us of the "far more positive reality" of immigration, as experienced by the average British citizen. Do you mean the richly positive reality of, say, Rotherham? Luton? Where? Brixton? Where?

Personally, I benefit from immigration. I have a hardworking, relatively cheap Thai cleaner, i hire sober and polite Slovak plumbers, etc; meanwhile my actual migrant neighbours are, in the main, French bankers, Swiss lawyers, cute Spanish student girls and the odd US movie star up the road.

But I am fairly sure my experience is unusual, and I am most reluctant to label my fellow Brits, with understandably less heart-warming stories, as "racist".
My reality: I married a lovely lady from a non-EU country who is now a UK citizen (*), work with many people who come from many parts of the world, and live in a village where, although most are UK born and bred, there are neighbours from all sorts of countries. And we are not particularly posh or rich, and certainly do not live in a particularly rich area.

Immigration has had a net positive on my life in many ways. That's my story, and it be one that is familiar to many. The hideousness of Rotherham, Rochdale etc is far from the whole story either.

Perhaps your experience is not as unusual as you think.

(*) In fact, my seven best mates all married foreigners. It's a tech industry thing. ;-)
On the street I live,a young white British couple moved in,these were the first british white family to move into our street for at least 20 years.

A couple of months later,they moving,the boyfriend got attacked just walking down the street to his house by a racist Asian gang.

What hope have we when this happens.

We left Kenton for a similar reason. Believe it or not, the part of Luton we live in is more peaceful (obviously that's not true of all of Luton).

Flightpath · December 2014

Sunil_Prasannan said:

MikeK said:
Good evening. Some UKIP news and propaganda to partake of. LOL

http://ukipdaily.com/radical-islam-left-war-commonwealth/

http://ukipdaily.com/courant-times-sunday-21-december/
"This is not the first time radical Islam has struck the Commonwealth."

Mumbai, 2008?

Yes but Mumbai is not the white commonwealth is it? UKIP see 'the commonwealth' as the great white hope - literally.

Sean_F · December 2014

Fenman said:
The reality of Rochdale and Rotherham is not only about immigration. It's about a lack of political commitment. Commitment to provide people with a decent education. Commitment to provide more flexible housing policies which would allow people to more easily move their families to where the jobs are. Commitment to end the benefits culture - not by just cutting benefits but by providing jobs that pay well. A fair days work for a fair days pay. Like i say the challenge is there. Will any of the main parties take it on?

Above all, commitment to enforcing the rule of law.

Flightpath · December 2014

MikeK said:
Good evening. Some UKIP news and propaganda to partake of. LOL

http://ukipdaily.com/radical-islam-left-war-commonwealth/

http://ukipdaily.com/courant-times-sunday-21-december/

Its good of UKIP to post a link to an article which points out one of its members made racist comments on twitter. Its response? Don't use twitter or the UKIP logo.
To be fair this advice comes under the heading 'common sense'.

ZenPagan · December 2014

SeanT said:

JosiasJessop said:

It's probably more to do with the fact that we in the UK are truly terrible at encouraging women into science, engineering and technology, whilst some countries are just terrible. Hence you get countries like India, China and Turkey producing female engineers at a greater proportion than here in the UK. When these women are qualified and faced with either remaining in their home countries and getting married off in a sometimes patriarchal society where they will not be able to work after marriage, or come to countries like the UK where they can have both a better salary and more freedom, they choose the freedom.

And this appears to have been at least part of the reason for several foreign-born engineers of my acquaintance here in the UK. It's a good job too, as there is a massive skills shortage in some sectors of the industry.

Also, techies tend to travel a little as well.

As for whether my experience is average: perhaps it is not. But I don't think it is unusual, either, especially the bit about my village.

Would your "basically prohibit immigration from majority Muslim countries for now (apart from stupidly rich people)" clause stop highly-qualified people coming over from those countries, even if they are cash poor?
You live in a village. That alone marks you out as pretty unusual. How many Brits live in "villages"? 10%? Less?

I would indeed prohibit all immigration from majority Muslim countries (for now) except for the probably very rich and the obviously very talented. Far too many problems attach to the Muslim communities we already have, and it is already very clear that, unlike previous migrants, Muslims tend not to integrate. or assimilate: they remain very attached to their cultural and religious traditions (indeed they often become MORE conservative over generations) in a way we do not see with other communities. And these traditions are hostile to liberal Anglo-Saxon attitudes.

The pattern is repeated across Europe. Liberal secularism cannot cope with Islam, Islam cannot cope with liberal secularism. The idea there will be some Islamic Enlightenment which will meld the two is ludicrous. Perhaps in 200 years.

Best stop the immigration now, and think again.

Living in a village with a few immigrants who are probably middle class in any case is a far cry from living in a place like slough where white british are in a minority and whole sets of shops no longer even sell things labelled in English. I suggest most of us lower classes c1 downwards are more likely to live in a town than a leafy village as we can't afford to

Tykejohnno · December 2014

@Sean_F - We left Kenton for a similar reason. Believe it or not, the part of Luton we live in is more peaceful (obviously that's not true of all of Luton).

I'm getting to the point of fearing for my family now,in the last 2 weeks they have been 5 or 6 attacks on white people walking on they own in the area I live.

Casino_Royale · December 2014

The trouble is that a lot of those in category (2) - who should return home after their studies, or apply for a work permit under a points system under (3) - are actually really in category (7) and use (2) as a way into the UK.

The UK has a long and proud history of helping people in (5) as long as the overall numbers are reasonable, and sensible.

That gets to the crux of the matter: "immigration", as an issue, is one of volume and numbers. The rate has to be controlled, sustainable and readily absorbable. However, the level over the last 15+ years is unprecedented in the history of the UK.

People are just not happy with the rate, the pressures it places on infrastructure, and the level of social change it has brought, and continues to bring. I think they're absolutely right.

There's no getting away from this. But politicians will try because (a) there's not much they can do about it, without major political change, and (b) they don't really want to do anything about it, because they benefit from it and see it as an antidote to what they perceive as the insular and philistine views of much of their voter base.

Flightpath · December 2014

foxinsoxuk said:

Speedy said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

SeanT said:
Anecdotage:

I've just returned from a wretchedly banal Christmas panto at the Hackney Empire. I know pantos are all banal and boring, but this was meant to be better. It wasn't. My older daughter (8) said she hated it, too. Hooray!

ANYWAY, the only interesting bit was when they went to political satire - which they did, twice, briefly. The first was a minor jab at the EU, the second, brief but pointed, was to call the baddy a "UKIP voter" (to cheers from some of the Guardianista Hackney crowd)

UKIP are literally the pantomime villains of British politics.
OH NO THEY'RE NOT
OH YES THEY ARE!!
If they are a pantomime villain then who is the white knight? John Rentoul?
And who is playing the damsel? Polly Toynbee?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73JORMGEA3w

"HELP HELP the evil UKIP voter has chained me on the rail tracks! Who will save me?"
I would cast Ken Clarke as the pantomime dame, and the delightful, but slightly androgenous, Yvette Cooper as principal boy.

I think the company should put on Aladdin, as we are going to need a genie to get out of this mess!

Surely the UKIP genie is well out of the bottle.

Sunil_Prasannan · December 2014

Flightpath said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

MikeK said:
Good evening. Some UKIP news and propaganda to partake of. LOL

http://ukipdaily.com/radical-islam-left-war-commonwealth/

http://ukipdaily.com/courant-times-sunday-21-december/
"This is not the first time radical Islam has struck the Commonwealth."

Mumbai, 2008?

Yes but Mumbai is not the white commonwealth is it? UKIP see 'the commonwealth' as the great white hope - literally.

Looks like the author of that article certainly thinks so.

BTW Did you see the purple line on the first graph I Tweeted earlier?

Luckyguy1983 · December 2014

JosiasJessop said:

SeanT said:

If you "work in the tech industry" and your "seven best friends married foreigners" I would politely suggest you are far from average in your experience of immigration.

To eliminate doubt, I am pro-immigration. I believe ultimately that a society which severely restricts immigration will suffer, especially as most developed countries are ageing badly.

However I would cut the crap and - for example - basically prohibit immigration from majority Muslim countries for now (apart from stupidly rich people), until the enormous problems attached thereto are sorted.
It's probably more to do with the fact that we in the UK are truly terrible at encouraging women into science, engineering and technology, whilst some countries are just terrible. Hence you get countries like India, China and Turkey producing female engineers at a greater proportion than here in the UK. When these women are qualified and faced with either remaining in their home countries and getting married off in a sometimes patriarchal society where they will not be able to work after marriage, or come to countries like the UK where they can have both a better salary and more freedom, they choose the freedom.

And this appears to have been at least part of the reason for several foreign-born engineers of my acquaintance here in the UK. It's a good job too, as there is a massive skills shortage in some sectors of the industry.

Also, techies tend to travel a little as well.

As for whether my experience is average: perhaps it is not. But I don't think it is unusual, either, especially the bit about my village.

Would your "basically prohibit immigration from majority Muslim countries for now (apart from stupidly rich people)" clause stop highly-qualified people coming over from those countries, even if they are cash poor?

It's a bit of a tangent, but I don't, really agree with people when they say there's a problem of not enough women scientists and engineers. There's a problem of not enough scientists and engineers. Saying we need more girls to go into it is a solution not a problem.

ZenPagan · December 2014

Luckyguy1983 said:

JosiasJessop said:

It's probably more to do with the fact that we in the UK are truly terrible at encouraging women into science, engineering and technology, whilst some countries are just terrible. Hence you get countries like India, China and Turkey producing female engineers at a greater proportion than here in the UK. When these women are qualified and faced with either remaining in their home countries and getting married off in a sometimes patriarchal society where they will not be able to work after marriage, or come to countries like the UK where they can have both a better salary and more freedom, they choose the freedom.

And this appears to have been at least part of the reason for several foreign-born engineers of my acquaintance here in the UK. It's a good job too, as there is a massive skills shortage in some sectors of the industry.

Also, techies tend to travel a little as well.

As for whether my experience is average: perhaps it is not. But I don't think it is unusual, either, especially the bit about my village.

Would your "basically prohibit immigration from majority Muslim countries for now (apart from stupidly rich people)" clause stop highly-qualified people coming over from those countries, even if they are cash poor?

It's a bit of a tangent, but I don't, really agree with people when they say there's a problem of not enough women scientists and engineers. There's a problem of not enough scientists and engineers. Saying we need more girls to go into it is a solution not a problem.

Their maybe a skill shortage for some areas however the one mr Jessop highlights certainly isn't he is in software so am I, I write in c,c++, c# and a variety of other languages. Whenever I go looking for work it is noticeable that the general salary range has not changed since roughly 2002. Feel free to check on job sites the general range is about 38k to 42k for a senior software engineer. If there was the skill shortage he complains of that figure would of been on an upward trajectory. What has been noticeable however that more and more of my work colleagues tend to be from eastern europe. Maybe what mr Jessop means is that there are still not enough software engineers immigrating that they can actually lower the going rate

Tim_B · December 2014

Luton - boy that brings back memories.

I remember as a 12 year old in the early 60s going to Luton airport, which was merely a collection of huts in those days, and going with my parents on a Sky Tours package deal to Tenerife, involving an 8 hours each way flight on a Bristol Britannia aircraft.

It was only a couple of years later that I first flew to the US, on a Super Constellation charter flight formerly of TWA, with a refueling stop at Gander in Newfoundland.

It's a long time ago.

Tykejohnno · December 2014

SeanT said:

Tykejohnno said:
@Sean_F - We left Kenton for a similar reason. Believe it or not, the part of Luton we live in is more peaceful (obviously that's not true of all of Luton).

I'm getting to the point of fearing for my family now,in the last 2 weeks they have been 5 or 6 attacks on white people walking on they own in the area I live.
Why are they being attacked? Simply for being white in an Asian area?

Serious question.

My GF - a London policewoman from a WWC background - has hair-raising stories in a similar vein.

You got it one sean.

Flightpath · December 2014

SeanT said:

Fenman said:
Past research has shown that the fear of immigration is often based somewhat counter-intuitively not in areas with large immigrant populations, but in areas nearby. Anticipation of the potential effects of immigration versus the far more positive reality.

Equally, it's unavoidable to conclude that the fear of immigration is also most present in those socio-economic groups whose jobs are most threatened by hard-working immigrants prepared to accept the minimum wage.

The final group, of course is the merely prejudiced.

The next government must seek to reassure the first two groups and must not pander to the third; leave that to UKIP.

It's not a difficult task it just requires a bit of guts and courage from politicians of the traditional parties.

Ah. Perhaps it's a bit more difficult than I thought then....
Do tell us of the "far more positive reality" of immigration, as experienced by the average British citizen. Do you mean the richly positive reality of, say, Rotherham? Luton? Where? Brixton? Where?

Personally, I benefit from immigration. I have a hardworking, relatively cheap Thai cleaner, i hire sober and polite Slovak plumbers, etc; meanwhile my actual migrant neighbours are, in the main, French bankers, Swiss lawyers, cute Spanish student girls and the odd US movie star up the road.

But I am fairly sure my experience is unusual, and I am most reluctant to label my fellow Brits, with understandably less heart-warming stories, as "racist".

No - why would anuone label people they do not know as anything, I mean you would never get kippers jumping to assumptions about Romanians and Bulgarians would you?
However I think when people actually talk about bongo bongo land and the like and people defend that comment - as people certainly did on the web - they are telling us about themselves.

ZenPagan · December 2014

SeanT said:

Tykejohnno said:
@Sean_F - We left Kenton for a similar reason. Believe it or not, the part of Luton we live in is more peaceful (obviously that's not true of all of Luton).

I'm getting to the point of fearing for my family now,in the last 2 weeks they have been 5 or 6 attacks on white people walking on they own in the area I live.
Why are they being attacked? Simply for being white in an Asian area?

Serious question.

My GF - a London policewoman from a WWC background - has hair-raising stories in a similar vein.

My ex used to get spat on every few months and called a white whore. It was one of the things that split us up as she became more and more fearful of leaving a house that wouldn't sell. It wasn't all of them by any means and she was often rescued by the majority. There a sufficient minority that thought like that however to end up making her to go back to Ireland.

JosiasJessop · December 2014

Luckyguy1983 said:

It's a bit of a tangent, but I don't, really agree with people when they say there's a problem of not enough women scientists and engineers. There's a problem of not enough scientists and engineers. Saying we need more girls to go into it is a solution not a problem.

Continuing the tangent, I disagree, and not just because I was a male engineer locked in a software factory with scores of sweaty males. We were a herd of nerds; a clique of geeks. ;-)

Unlike many jobs, there is no physical reason why girls can not fill scientist or (most) engineering roles. The women I have known in these roles have generally been at least as good as their male counterparts, and in many cases better (*).

Many of these jobs are very mind-oriented, and you get some incredibly bright people who are absolute unsung stars in their companies. Their output can be many times that of the ordinary pleb engineers such as myself, although that is often tempered by other characteristics such as lack of process and management skills.

By restricting such roles to just men, you are reducing the number of those ultra-bright people going into the industry; this mindset is intrinsic part of their personality and cannot easily be taught, if at all. A lack of such people inhibits industry; not encouraging women worsens the problem.

Getting more women into engineering is good for women, good for men, good for industry, and good for the sex lives of geeks. It's a win-win. ;-)

To make it clear, I'm not calling for positive discrimination towards female engineers. Just that parents, society and schools should start to see STEM as a 'suitable' job for women.

(*) Perhaps, because there are barriers put in front of them, some tend to have wanted it more, and worked harder, than people like me who drifted into it.

malcolmg · December 2014

Luckyguy1983 said:

JosiasJessop said:

SeanT said:

If you "work in the tech industry" and your "seven best friends married foreigners" I would politely suggest you are far from average in your experience of immigration.

To eliminate doubt, I am pro-immigration. I believe ultimately that a society which severely restricts immigration will suffer, especially as most developed countries are ageing badly.

However I would cut the crap and - for example - basically prohibit immigration from majority Muslim countries for now (apart from stupidly rich people), until the enormous problems attached thereto are sorted.
It's probably more to do with the fact that we in the UK are truly terrible at encouraging women into science, engineering and technology, whilst some countries are just terrible. Hence you get countries like India, China and Turkey producing female engineers at a greater proportion than here in the UK. When these women are qualified and faced with either remaining in their home countries and getting married off in a sometimes patriarchal society where they will not be able to work after marriage, or come to countries like the UK where they can have both a better salary and more freedom, they choose the freedom.

And this appears to have been at least part of the reason for several foreign-born engineers of my acquaintance here in the UK. It's a good job too, as there is a massive skills shortage in some sectors of the industry.

Also, techies tend to travel a little as well.

As for whether my experience is average: perhaps it is not. But I don't think it is unusual, either, especially the bit about my village.

Would your "basically prohibit immigration from majority Muslim countries for now (apart from stupidly rich people)" clause stop highly-qualified people coming over from those countries, even if they are cash poor?

It's a bit of a tangent, but I don't, really agree with people when they say there's a problem of not enough women scientists and engineers. There's a problem of not enough scientists and engineers. Saying we need more girls to go into it is a solution not a problem.

Yes and living in a poncy middle class village near cambridge is hardly your every day working class chappies experience of immigration.

Sean_F · December 2014

SeanT said:

Tykejohnno said:
@Sean_F - We left Kenton for a similar reason. Believe it or not, the part of Luton we live in is more peaceful (obviously that's not true of all of Luton).

I'm getting to the point of fearing for my family now,in the last 2 weeks they have been 5 or 6 attacks on white people walking on they own in the area I live.
Why are they being attacked? Simply for being white in an Asian area?

Serious question.

My GF - a London policewoman from a WWC background - has hair-raising stories in a similar vein.

One of my family members was victimised by a mixed Somali/Pakistani gang, so we moved out. So, I can say that my own experience of immigration has not been positive.

JosiasJessop · December 2014

ZenPagan said:

Their maybe a skill shortage for some areas however the one mr Jessop highlights certainly isn't he is in software so am I, I write in c,c++, c# and a variety of other languages. Whenever I go looking for work it is noticeable that the general salary range has not changed since roughly 2002. Feel free to check on job sites the general range is about 38k to 42k for a senior software engineer. If there was the skill shortage he complains of that figure would of been on an upward trajectory. What has been noticeable however that more and more of my work colleagues tend to be from eastern europe. Maybe what mr Jessop means is that there are still not enough software engineers immigrating that they can actually lower the going rate

'Software' is one heck of a big area, covering everything from websites to military systems through gaming. I can assure you that there is a shortage in the areas I work in (and companies are desperate to hire). It is even worse in Mrs J's rather specialist hardware speciality.

Parts of software are very healthy indeed. It's also true that many UK-born engineers choose to move abroad to live, as well as ones coming in.

It should be noted that I am not working at the moment, out of choice. :-)

Sean_F · December 2014

SeanT said:

ZenPagan said:

SeanT said:

JosiasJessop said:

Would your "basically prohibit immigration from majority Muslim countries for now (apart from stupidly rich people)" clause stop highly-qualified people coming over from those countries, even if they are cash poor?
You live in a village. That alone marks you out as pretty unusual. How many Brits live in "villages"? 10%? Less?

I would indeed prohibit all immigration from majority Muslim countries (for now) except for the probably very rich and the obviously very talented. Far too many problems attach to the Muslim communities we already have, and it is already very clear that, unlike previous migrants, Muslims tend not to integrate. or assimilate: they remain very attached to their cultural and religious traditions (indeed they often become MORE conservative over generations) in a way we do not see with other communities. And these traditions are hostile to liberal Anglo-Saxon attitudes.

The pattern is repeated across Europe. Liberal secularism cannot cope with Islam, Islam cannot cope with liberal secularism. The idea there will be some Islamic Enlightenment which will meld the two is ludicrous. Perhaps in 200 years.

Best stop the immigration now, and think again.
Living in a village with a few immigrants who are probably middle class in any case is a far cry from living in a place like slough where white british are in a minority and whole sets of shops no longer even sell things labelled in English. I suggest most of us lower classes c1 downwards are more likely to live in a town than a leafy village as we can't afford to

Then keep voting UKIP. I really mean that. The only way the British white working and lower middle classes, the spine of the nation, will frighten the ghastly British liberal elite into listening, is by voting UKIP - and by doing it in their millions.

Voting Tory is basically pointless: cf the inability of the Tories to control immigration. Voting Labour is actual self harm: it's voting for more immigration and more of the same.

I will vote out of self interest, I will personally vote for the party which benefits me and my country (as I see it): i.e. the Conservatives (or I will vote tactically to benefit them). This is largely because I am affluent and professional and I am a property owner living in London and the Tories look after people like me/us.

But people in different and harsher circumstances need to wise up. Voting Labour doesn't cut it any more. LABOUR DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU, yet they are terrified you might GO FARAGE.

So do it. Don't listen to the pantomine Guardianistas. Vote UKIP and good luck to you. If UKIP get 5 million votes it will be a healthy jolt to our entire system.

It's hard to disagree with that.

HurstLlama · December 2014

ZenPagan said:

Their maybe a skill shortage for some areas however the one mr Jessop highlights certainly isn't he is in software so am I, I write in c,c++, c# and a variety of other languages. Whenever I go looking for work it is noticeable that the general salary range has not changed since roughly 2002. Feel free to check on job sites the general range is about 38k to 42k for a senior software engineer. If there was the skill shortage he complains of that figure would of been on an upward trajectory. What has been noticeable however that more and more of my work colleagues tend to be from eastern europe. Maybe what mr Jessop means is that there are still not enough software engineers immigrating that they can actually lower the going rate

£38K to £42K sounds low for a senior software engineer; about right for a good, experienced programmer but low for a software engineer. I suppose it also depends on the industry sector. Nearly ten years ago when I was consulting in the City banks were paying more than that for front-line IT support people and couldn't get enough staff to do the job, well actually they could recruit them but couldn't hang on to them (having seen one trader throw his telephone through his screen and then an hour later scream that it hadn't been replaced, I am not surprised). The clever chaps who actually designed and coded the systems were paid very serious money.

However, that was then. Dunno what it is like now.

JosiasJessop · December 2014

malcolmg said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

It's a bit of a tangent, but I don't, really agree with people when they say there's a problem of not enough women scientists and engineers. There's a problem of not enough scientists and engineers. Saying we need more girls to go into it is a solution not a problem.
Yes and living in a poncy middle class village near cambridge is hardly your every day working class chappies experience of immigration.

I'm not sure it's 'poncy': our shops are either a Morrisons or a Co-op, and a journey to the nearest Waitrose to buy jars of tahini can take over half an hour. Oh, the horror!

But it is a valid, and true, experience of immigration, and not (I think) an 'unusual' one.

ZenPagan · December 2014

JosiasJessop said:

ZenPagan said:

Their maybe a skill shortage for some areas however the one mr Jessop highlights certainly isn't he is in software so am I, I write in c,c++, c# and a variety of other languages. Whenever I go looking for work it is noticeable that the general salary range has not changed since roughly 2002. Feel free to check on job sites the general range is about 38k to 42k for a senior software engineer. If there was the skill shortage he complains of that figure would of been on an upward trajectory. What has been noticeable however that more and more of my work colleagues tend to be from eastern europe. Maybe what mr Jessop means is that there are still not enough software engineers immigrating that they can actually lower the going rate
'Software' is one heck of a big area, covering everything from websites to military systems through gaming. I can assure you that there is a shortage in the areas I work in (and companies are desperate to hire). It is even worse in Mrs J's rather specialist hardware speciality.

Parts of software are very healthy indeed. It's also true that many UK-born engineers choose to move abroad to live, as well as ones coming in.

It should be noted that I am not working at the moment, out of choice. :-)

There are undoubtably shortages in certain specialised niches. However those aren't necessarily the people being invited in. It is software engineers in general. I was made redundant in 2013 on the grounds the company was shutting the uk office. It took me 6 months to get a job (maybe due to my age as I am approaching 50) and even then I had to take a pay cut. In 2002 I could command 45k now I can only get 40k. In case you are wondering no I am not one of those idiots that think they can program that we too often interview I am actually one of the high performers you mentioned. Evidence my current company that I joined 6 months ago is trying now to change my contract so I have to give a years notice. The only engineer in the company being cajoled for this

MarkHopkins · December 2014

JosiasJessop said:

malcolmg said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

It's a bit of a tangent, but I don't, really agree with people when they say there's a problem of not enough women scientists and engineers. There's a problem of not enough scientists and engineers. Saying we need more girls to go into it is a solution not a problem.
Yes and living in a poncy middle class village near cambridge is hardly your every day working class chappies experience of immigration.
I'm not sure it's 'poncy': our shops are either a Morrisons or a Co-op, and a journey to the nearest Waitrose to buy jars of tahini can take over half an hour. Oh, the horror!

But it is a valid, and true, experience of immigration, and not (I think) an 'unusual' one.

It's an experience of immigration. I doubt it's an experience of mass immigration.

My experiences are more like yours and SeanT's, but there are many others who have very different ones.

TheScreamingEagles · December 2014

JIM Murphy faces a massive job in restoring Labour’s fortunes after a poll showed just one in four voters thinks his leadership will make the party more successful.

The Daily Record survey, taken days after Murphy’s election as Scottish Labour leader, shows the SNP continuing to dominate Westminster and Holyrood voting intentions.

The Survation poll of 1000 people shows the nationalist surge continuing with a record-breaking 48 per cent of voters saying they will back the SNP in the May general election.

With the SNP up two points from November and Labour unchanged on 24 per cent, the Nats are outgunning Labour two to one across the country.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-daily-record-poll-shows-4851425

Download the official Twitter app here

HurstLlama · December 2014

@JosiasJessop

"I can assure you that there is a shortage in the areas I work in (and companies are desperate to hire)"

How much do those companies spend on training and staff development? If they can't find enough people fully qualified there will be a reason and/or they need to look at other ways of getting the numbers up.

MarkHopkins · December 2014

TheScreamingEagles said:
JIM Murphy faces a massive job in restoring Labour’s fortunes after a poll showed just one in four voters thinks his leadership will make the party more successful.

The Daily Record survey, taken days after Murphy’s election as Scottish Labour leader, shows the SNP continuing to dominate Westminster and Holyrood voting intentions.

The Survation poll of 1000 people shows the nationalist surge continuing with a record-breaking 48 per cent of voters saying they will back the SNP in the May general election.

With the SNP up two points from November and Labour unchanged on 24 per cent, the Nats are outgunning Labour two to one across the country.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-daily-record-poll-shows-4851425

Download the official Twitter app here

HTTP Status 404

Hmmm. You killed it.

Luckyguy1983 · December 2014

JosiasJessop said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

It's a bit of a tangent, but I don't, really agree with people when they say there's a problem of not enough women scientists and engineers. There's a problem of not enough scientists and engineers. Saying we need more girls to go into it is a solution not a problem.
Continuing the tangent, I disagree, and not just because I was a male engineer locked in a software factory with scores of sweaty males. We were a herd of nerds; a clique of geeks. ;-)

Unlike many jobs, there is no physical reason why girls can not fill scientist or (most) engineering roles. The women I have known in these roles have generally been at least as good as their male counterparts, and in many cases better (*).

Many of these jobs are very mind-oriented, and you get some incredibly bright people who are absolute unsung stars in their companies. Their output can be many times that of the ordinary pleb engineers such as myself, although that is often tempered by other characteristics such as lack of process and management skills.

By restricting such roles to just men, you are reducing the number of those ultra-bright people going into the industry; this mindset is intrinsic part of their personality and cannot easily be taught, if at all. A lack of such people inhibits industry; not encouraging women worsens the problem.

Getting more women into engineering is good for women, good for men, good for industry, and good for the sex lives of geeks. It's a win-win. ;-)

To make it clear, I'm not calling for positive discrimination towards female engineers. Just that parents, society and schools should start to see STEM as a 'suitable' job for women.

(*) Perhaps, because there are barriers put in front of them, some tend to have wanted it more, and worked harder, than people like me who drifted into it.

Fair points, but I am not entirely convinced. Popularise the subject as a whole, and let the chips fall where they may. That must surely be the best way forward.

AlastairMeeks · December 2014

TheScreamingEagles said:
JIM Murphy faces a massive job in restoring Labour’s fortunes after a poll showed just one in four voters thinks his leadership will make the party more successful.

The Daily Record survey, taken days after Murphy’s election as Scottish Labour leader, shows the SNP continuing to dominate Westminster and Holyrood voting intentions.

The Survation poll of 1000 people shows the nationalist surge continuing with a record-breaking 48 per cent of voters saying they will back the SNP in the May general election.

With the SNP up two points from November and Labour unchanged on 24 per cent, the Nats are outgunning Labour two to one across the country.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-daily-record-poll-shows-4851425

Download the official Twitter app here

Looks like I chose the right day for backing the SNP in constituencies.

isam · December 2014

Sky News ‏@SkyNews · 7m7 minutes ago
EXPRESS FRONT PAGE: Poll finds that "51% of Britons want to leave the EU" pic.twitter.com/M6VxbzASww

malcolmg · December 2014

JosiasJessop said:

malcolmg said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

It's a bit of a tangent, but I don't, really agree with people when they say there's a problem of not enough women scientists and engineers. There's a problem of not enough scientists and engineers. Saying we need more girls to go into it is a solution not a problem.
Yes and living in a poncy middle class village near cambridge is hardly your every day working class chappies experience of immigration.
I'm not sure it's 'poncy': our shops are either a Morrisons or a Co-op, and a journey to the nearest Waitrose to buy jars of tahini can take over half an hour. Oh, the horror!

But it is a valid, and true, experience of immigration, and not (I think) an 'unusual' one.

No worries about it up here, have to say not something I ever think about or have concerns about , though not many immigrants around and not an issue with average person I would have thought. I can understand the issue in England mind you where the lifestyle is eradicated.

TheScreamingEagles · December 2014

MarkHopkins said:

TheScreamingEagles said:
JIM Murphy faces a massive job in restoring Labour’s fortunes after a poll showed just one in four voters thinks his leadership will make the party more successful.

The Daily Record survey, taken days after Murphy’s election as Scottish Labour leader, shows the SNP continuing to dominate Westminster and Holyrood voting intentions.

The Survation poll of 1000 people shows the nationalist surge continuing with a record-breaking 48 per cent of voters saying they will back the SNP in the May general election.

With the SNP up two points from November and Labour unchanged on 24 per cent, the Nats are outgunning Labour two to one across the country.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-daily-record-poll-shows-4851425

Download the official Twitter app here

HTTP Status 404

Hmmm. You killed it.

Try here

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-daily-record-poll-shows-4851425

dr_spyn · December 2014

Just watched Salmon Fishing in The Yemen, and felt very disappointed by the adaptation of the book. It lost the political satire, changed the nature of several key characters and altered the ending. I suppose I will have to fish the book out, and re-read it. I am somewhat less than gruntled.

Sean_F · December 2014

antifrank said:

TheScreamingEagles said:
JIM Murphy faces a massive job in restoring Labour’s fortunes after a poll showed just one in four voters thinks his leadership will make the party more successful.

The Daily Record survey, taken days after Murphy’s election as Scottish Labour leader, shows the SNP continuing to dominate Westminster and Holyrood voting intentions.

The Survation poll of 1000 people shows the nationalist surge continuing with a record-breaking 48 per cent of voters saying they will back the SNP in the May general election.

With the SNP up two points from November and Labour unchanged on 24 per cent, the Nats are outgunning Labour two to one across the country.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-daily-record-poll-shows-4851425

Download the official Twitter app here
Looks like I chose the right day for backing the SNP in constituencies.

Good call.

FalseFlag · December 2014

JosiasJessop said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

It's a bit of a tangent, but I don't, really agree with people when they say there's a problem of not enough women scientists and engineers. There's a problem of not enough scientists and engineers. Saying we need more girls to go into it is a solution not a problem.
Continuing the tangent, I disagree, and not just because I was a male engineer locked in a software factory with scores of sweaty males. We were a herd of nerds; a clique of geeks. ;-)

Unlike many jobs, there is no physical reason why girls can not fill scientist or (most) engineering roles. The women I have known in these roles have generally been at least as good as their male counterparts, and in many cases better (*).

Many of these jobs are very mind-oriented, and you get some incredibly bright people who are absolute unsung stars in their companies. Their output can be many times that of the ordinary pleb engineers such as myself, although that is often tempered by other characteristics such as lack of process and management skills.

By restricting such roles to just men, you are reducing the number of those ultra-bright people going into the industry; this mindset is intrinsic part of their personality and cannot easily be taught, if at all. A lack of such people inhibits industry; not encouraging women worsens the problem.

Getting more women into engineering is good for women, good for men, good for industry, and good for the sex lives of geeks. It's a win-win. ;-)

To make it clear, I'm not calling for positive discrimination towards female engineers. Just that parents, society and schools should start to see STEM as a 'suitable' job for women.

(*) Perhaps, because there are barriers put in front of them, some tend to have wanted it more, and worked harder, than people like me who drifted into it.

Great let's force women into doing something they don't like. Women want to go into nursing, fashion etc not engineering. They have neither the interest nor aptitude to go into computing.

The more 'gender equal' a society the lower the percentage of women in STEM. No one is restricting anyone, it's women excerising their right to choose their career rather than say in India where women are forced to go into computing for financial reasons.

http://quintaldo.wordpress.com/2013/03/10/brainwashed-norway-documentary/

isam · December 2014

Mark Reckless ‏@MarkReckless · 1h1 hour ago
@DouglasCarswell @GuidoFawkes ...when I asked Theresa May before @CommonsHomeAffs she said she supported non-EU graduates staying on to work

JosiasJessop · December 2014

ZenPagan said:

There are undoubtably shortages in certain specialised niches. However those aren't necessarily the people being invited in. It is software engineers in general. I was made redundant in 2013 on the grounds the company was shutting the uk office. It took me 6 months to get a job (maybe due to my age as I am approaching 50) and even then I had to take a pay cut. In 2002 I could command 45k now I can only get 40k. In case you are wondering no I am not one of those idiots that think they can program that we too often interview I am actually one of the high performers you mentioned. Evidence my current company that I joined 6 months ago is trying now to change my contract so I have to give a years notice. The only engineer in the company being cajoled for this

I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties, and never assumed you were just a poor code-monkey.

With recruitment, a major problem is identifying the 'stars', which are what we particularly need more of, wherever they come from. I was never one myself (and never will be), but managed to identify a niche where I could earn a living that would give me a good, if not SeanT-level, lifestyle. We need the stars, but these are very hard to identify from interview, and especially at graduate level.

Then there are the problems surrounding in-house training and job development, which is woeful in most UK companies I have been in for the usual reasons.

I don't recognise your pay situation either, and although I have been outside full-time paid work for a while I do keep my ear to the ground. It was bad in 2008-2011, but has really picked up recently. But perhaps my area of software is very different to yours.

TheScreamingEagles · December 2014

antifrank said:

TheScreamingEagles said:
JIM Murphy faces a massive job in restoring Labour’s fortunes after a poll showed just one in four voters thinks his leadership will make the party more successful.

The Daily Record survey, taken days after Murphy’s election as Scottish Labour leader, shows the SNP continuing to dominate Westminster and Holyrood voting intentions.

The Survation poll of 1000 people shows the nationalist surge continuing with a record-breaking 48 per cent of voters saying they will back the SNP in the May general election.

With the SNP up two points from November and Labour unchanged on 24 per cent, the Nats are outgunning Labour two to one across the country.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-daily-record-poll-shows-4851425

Download the official Twitter app here
Looks like I chose the right day for backing the SNP in constituencies.

You mean you hadn't backed them already ?

Sean_F · December 2014

isam said:
Sky News ‏@SkyNews · 7m7 minutes ago
EXPRESS FRONT PAGE: Poll finds that "51% of Britons want to leave the EU" pic.twitter.com/M6VxbzASww

Conducted by which company?

MarkHopkins · December 2014

TheScreamingEagles said:

MarkHopkins said:

TheScreamingEagles said:
JIM Murphy faces a massive job in restoring Labour’s fortunes after a poll showed just one in four voters thinks his leadership will make the party more successful.

The Daily Record survey, taken days after Murphy’s election as Scottish Labour leader, shows the SNP continuing to dominate Westminster and Holyrood voting intentions.

The Survation poll of 1000 people shows the nationalist surge continuing with a record-breaking 48 per cent of voters saying they will back the SNP in the May general election.

With the SNP up two points from November and Labour unchanged on 24 per cent, the Nats are outgunning Labour two to one across the country.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-daily-record-poll-shows-4851425

Download the official Twitter app here

HTTP Status 404

Hmmm. You killed it.

Try here

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-daily-record-poll-shows-4851425

Thanks.

48 vs 24. A 24-pt lead?

Is this the poll being used for the competition?

Wow.

AlastairMeeks · December 2014

TheScreamingEagles said:

antifrank said:

TheScreamingEagles said:
JIM Murphy faces a massive job in restoring Labour’s fortunes after a poll showed just one in four voters thinks his leadership will make the party more successful.

The Daily Record survey, taken days after Murphy’s election as Scottish Labour leader, shows the SNP continuing to dominate Westminster and Holyrood voting intentions.

The Survation poll of 1000 people shows the nationalist surge continuing with a record-breaking 48 per cent of voters saying they will back the SNP in the May general election.

With the SNP up two points from November and Labour unchanged on 24 per cent, the Nats are outgunning Labour two to one across the country.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-daily-record-poll-shows-4851425

Download the official Twitter app here
Looks like I chose the right day for backing the SNP in constituencies.
You mean you hadn't backed them already ?

I backed a few more:

http://newstonoone.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/testing-boundaries-2-labour-vs-snp.html

To be honest, I'm just cheering myself up before I review last year's predictions later in the week. That's going to be chastening.

TheScreamingEagles · December 2014

MarkHopkins said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MarkHopkins said:

TheScreamingEagles said:
JIM Murphy faces a massive job in restoring Labour’s fortunes after a poll showed just one in four voters thinks his leadership will make the party more successful.

The Daily Record survey, taken days after Murphy’s election as Scottish Labour leader, shows the SNP continuing to dominate Westminster and Holyrood voting intentions.

The Survation poll of 1000 people shows the nationalist surge continuing with a record-breaking 48 per cent of voters saying they will back the SNP in the May general election.

With the SNP up two points from November and Labour unchanged on 24 per cent, the Nats are outgunning Labour two to one across the country.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-daily-record-poll-shows-4851425

Download the official Twitter app here

HTTP Status 404

Hmmm. You killed it.

Try here

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-daily-record-poll-shows-4851425
Thanks.

48 vs 24. A 24-pt lead?

Is this the poll being used for the competition?

Wow.

I think so. But you'd have to check with Mike.

ZenPagan · December 2014

HurstLlama said:
@JosiasJessop

"I can assure you that there is a shortage in the areas I work in (and companies are desperate to hire)"

How much do those companies spend on training and staff development? If they can't find enough people fully qualified there will be a reason and/or they need to look at other ways of getting the numbers up.

My experience prior to 2002 was that we got sent on training courses for new technologies fairly often. These days it is rare.

In addition a further problem is our schools. We recently had a work experience guy from a local school. Unlike many firms I got this guy handed to me and agreed to it only on the proviso that we would actually give him work experience. This 15 year old came to us and it soon became apparent he knew little. I had to teach him about polymorphism, inheritance, interfaces etc from scratch to name just a few things they had failed to teach him. At the end his teacher came for a debriefing. We had got him doing some basic stuff which while basic was still of use to us. We got him to demonstrate to her what he had been doing then questioned her on why we had to teach him so much. Her response was "oh thats not till the a level syllabus"....many wont understand this but mr jessop will. How can you teach an oop language without at least covering the basics such as inheritance or polymorphism.

End result this guy went away with a thirst to join the ranks of software engineers because my bosses gave me time to actually teach him. His friends he told me had been mainly been tasked with making coffee or sweeping the floor

TheScreamingEagles · December 2014

antifrank said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

antifrank said:

TheScreamingEagles said:
JIM Murphy faces a massive job in restoring Labour’s fortunes after a poll showed just one in four voters thinks his leadership will make the party more successful.

The Daily Record survey, taken days after Murphy’s election as Scottish Labour leader, shows the SNP continuing to dominate Westminster and Holyrood voting intentions.

The Survation poll of 1000 people shows the nationalist surge continuing with a record-breaking 48 per cent of voters saying they will back the SNP in the May general election.

With the SNP up two points from November and Labour unchanged on 24 per cent, the Nats are outgunning Labour two to one across the country.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-daily-record-poll-shows-4851425

Download the official Twitter app here
Looks like I chose the right day for backing the SNP in constituencies.
You mean you hadn't backed them already ?
I backed a few more:

http://newstonoone.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/testing-boundaries-2-labour-vs-snp.html

To be honest, I'm just cheering myself up before I review last year's predictions later in the week. That's going to be chastening.

Cheers. Been a bit hectic this weekend.

JosiasJessop · December 2014

FalseFlag said:
Great let's force women into doing something they don't like. Women want to go into nursing, fashion etc not engineering. They have neither the interest nor aptitude to go into computing.

The more 'gender equal' a society the lower the percentage of women in STEM. No one is restricting anyone, it's women excerising their right to choose their career rather than say in India where women are forced to go into computing for financial reasons.

http://quintaldo.wordpress.com/2013/03/10/brainwashed-norway-documentary/

"They have neither the interest nor aptitude to go into computing."

Rubbish. Worse, it is stupid, ignorant and sexist rubbish that is easily disprovable by a lady sitting not to far from me, and many others I know.

I am also not talking about 'forcing' women into any role. I'm just saying we should let them know that such roles are out there, and that they could do them. Instead of restricting them, as you evidently do, to roles such as nursing and fashion.

Because you know better than them what they want. A woman should know her place, eh?

surbiton · December 2014

Latest ASSS [ Aggregate Sub Samples Surbitonised ]

Decisive changes this week

Warning: Totally unscientific.

W/E 19/12/14

C 260 (274), L 307 (292), SNP 43 (45), LD 17 (16) Grn 1 (1)

C 31.50%, Lab 32.94%, LD 6.12%, Green 7.1%, SNP 3.6%, UKIP 14.81%

As ASSS is calculated through regional sub samples, UKIP is still zero. From 2015, the more sophisticated version will make adjustments for UKIP and LD. The above is a purely statistical exercise.

Where has Labour's gains come from ?

Scotland 2 [ SNP -2 ], London 2 [ C -3, LD + 1 ], Rest of South 3 [ C -3 ]
Midlands / Wales: No change, North 8 [ C -8 ]

Interesting point about Scotland. If SNP / Lab split becomes 37:31, Labour overtakes the Nats with 29 to 26 seats. Current distribution is 43.2% - 27% [ 43 / 12 ]

Tim_B · December 2014

dr_spyn said:
Just watched Salmon Fishing in The Yemen, and felt very disappointed by the adaptation of the book. It lost the political satire, changed the nature of several key characters and altered the ending. I suppose I will have to fish the book out, and re-read it. I am somewhat less than gruntled.

I enjoyed the movie, but have not read the book yet.

Ishmael_X · December 2014

Flightpath said:

SeanT said:

Fenman said:
Past research has shown that the fear of immigration is often based somewhat counter-intuitively not in areas with large immigrant populations, but in areas nearby. Anticipation of the potential effects of immigration versus the far more positive reality.

Equally, it's unavoidable to conclude that the fear of immigration is also most present in those socio-economic groups whose jobs are most threatened by hard-working immigrants prepared to accept the minimum wage.

The final group, of course is the merely prejudiced.

The next government must seek to reassure the first two groups and must not pander to the third; leave that to UKIP.

It's not a difficult task it just requires a bit of guts and courage from politicians of the traditional parties.

Ah. Perhaps it's a bit more difficult than I thought then....
Do tell us of the "far more positive reality" of immigration, as experienced by the average British citizen. Do you mean the richly positive reality of, say, Rotherham? Luton? Where? Brixton? Where?

Personally, I benefit from immigration. I have a hardworking, relatively cheap Thai cleaner, i hire sober and polite Slovak plumbers, etc; meanwhile my actual migrant neighbours are, in the main, French bankers, Swiss lawyers, cute Spanish student girls and the odd US movie star up the road.

But I am fairly sure my experience is unusual, and I am most reluctant to label my fellow Brits, with understandably less heart-warming stories, as "racist".
No - why would anuone label people they do not know as anything, I mean you would never get kippers jumping to assumptions about Romanians and Bulgarians would you?
However I think when people actually talk about bongo bongo land and the like and people defend that comment - as people certainly did on the web - they are telling us about themselves.

The expression "bongo bongo land" was notoriously used by Alan Clark well before Godfrey Bloom. Alan Clark was not a kipper. I am pretty confident neither of those facts is known to you.

I am currently intending to vote tory as I usually do; but as I'm in a safe tory seat anyway I am increasingly tempted to vote Ukip in protest against the ignorance, malice and intellectual yahooism of the pbtories. Well done.

Floater · December 2014

I see there is more excitement in France this evening .

isam · December 2014

Sean_F said:

isam said:
Sky News ‏@SkyNews · 7m7 minutes ago
EXPRESS FRONT PAGE: Poll finds that "51% of Britons want to leave the EU" pic.twitter.com/M6VxbzASww

Conducted by which company?

I am not sure if it is a reputable one or not.. OBR International? Gallup it seems

Actually quite interesting, it surveys 12 countries

Only Greece seem to have a less favourable view of the EU than us

MineForNothing ‏@minefornothing · 6h6 hours ago
OBR International Poll on EU membership in the UK

Stay - 49%
Leave - 51%

http://www.opinion.co.uk/perch/resources/europeanattitudesresults.pdf …

ZenPagan · December 2014

JosiasJessop said:

ZenPagan said:

There are undoubtably shortages in certain specialised niches. However those aren't necessarily the people being invited in. It is software engineers in general. I was made redundant in 2013 on the grounds the company was shutting the uk office. It took me 6 months to get a job (maybe due to my age as I am approaching 50) and even then I had to take a pay cut. In 2002 I could command 45k now I can only get 40k. In case you are wondering no I am not one of those idiots that think they can program that we too often interview I am actually one of the high performers you mentioned. Evidence my current company that I joined 6 months ago is trying now to change my contract so I have to give a years notice. The only engineer in the company being cajoled for this
I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties, and never assumed you were just a poor code-monkey.

With recruitment, a major problem is identifying the 'stars', which are what we particularly need more of, wherever they come from. I was never one myself (and never will be), but managed to identify a niche where I could earn a living that would give me a good, if not SeanT-level, lifestyle. We need the stars, but these are very hard to identify from interview, and especially at graduate level.

Then there are the problems surrounding in-house training and job development, which is woeful in most UK companies I have been in for the usual reasons.

I don't recognise your pay situation either, and although I have been outside full-time paid work for a while I do keep my ear to the ground. It was bad in 2008-2011, but has really picked up recently. But perhaps my area of software is very different to yours.

My area is as a general software engineer who masters problem domains quickly and not only writes what is required but comes up new idea's in those domains. To give you a view

I wrote colour matching software for ICI paints which included having to work out how to actually match a colour using spectrophotometric data...not so easy when you have pearlescent and metallic colours

I wrote the road routing engine for the DFT transport portal

I have written DRM software for DVD's

I rewrote the printer management system of windows to give not only the ability to move jobs but to script printer management for a printer company

I am currently creating software to enable the design and statistical validation of games for the online casino industry

Non software wise I have also squeezed in a career as a trawlerman, and a professional poker player

Artist · December 2014

Interesting that all of the other European countries listed are strongly in favour of staying in. I thought Eurosceptic parties had done well across Europe in the European Elections in May.

Sean_F · December 2014

isam said:

Sean_F said:

isam said:
Sky News ‏@SkyNews · 7m7 minutes ago
EXPRESS FRONT PAGE: Poll finds that "51% of Britons want to leave the EU" pic.twitter.com/M6VxbzASww

Conducted by which company?
I am not sure if it is a reputable one or not.. OBR International? Gallup it seems

Actually quite interesting, it surveys 12 countries

Only Greece seem to have a less favourable view of the EU than us

MineForNothing ‏@minefornothing · 6h6 hours ago
OBR International Poll on EU membership in the UK

Stay - 49%
Leave - 51%

http://www.opinion.co.uk/perch/resources/europeanattitudesresults.pdf …

It asks whether Afghanistan should remain part of the EU!

TwistedFireStopper · December 2014

I live in a small village, with very little immigration, but work in Leicester, and have Loughborough as my nearest town, so I guess I see a lot of immigration, and both the good and bad of it. There is no denying that immigration has had a huge effect on Leicester, and its surrounding areas. There are ghettos, areas where you rarely see a white face, or hear English spoken. The sheer range of languages spoken in Leicester is mind boggling- we have to have a 70 page laminated book of useful phrases, and have access to a telephone translation service. Parts of Leicester are a foreign country, no doubt about it. Is that a good thing? Probably not. Leicester does have problems, not every culture wants to integrate, and in certain areas, there is an air of intimidation.
Loughborough has a lot of immigration too. A large Polish populaion, large Asian areas, a smaller Somali grouping, and of course the student population.
The thing is, having been born and raised in the county, I don't know anything different, so immigration doesn't really bother me, and living in a village insulates me from it, I guess.

Luckyguy1983 · December 2014

JosiasJessop said:

FalseFlag said:
Great let's force women into doing something they don't like. Women want to go into nursing, fashion etc not engineering. They have neither the interest nor aptitude to go into computing.

The more 'gender equal' a society the lower the percentage of women in STEM. No one is restricting anyone, it's women excerising their right to choose their career rather than say in India where women are forced to go into computing for financial reasons.

http://quintaldo.wordpress.com/2013/03/10/brainwashed-norway-documentary/
"They have neither the interest nor aptitude to go into computing."

Rubbish. Worse, it is stupid, ignorant and sexist rubbish that is easily disprovable by a lady sitting not to far from me, and many others I know.

I am also not talking about 'forcing' women into any role. I'm just saying we should let them know that such roles are out there, and that they could do them. Instead of restricting them, as you evidently do, to roles such as nursing and fashion.

Because you know better than them what they want. A woman should know her place, eh?

Sadly, most girls these days want to be footballer's wives. Telling they can be engineers (which I am sure schools already do) isn't going to cut it.

ZenPagan · December 2014

JosiasJessop said:

FalseFlag said:
Great let's force women into doing something they don't like. Women want to go into nursing, fashion etc not engineering. They have neither the interest nor aptitude to go into computing.

The more 'gender equal' a society the lower the percentage of women in STEM. No one is restricting anyone, it's women excerising their right to choose their career rather than say in India where women are forced to go into computing for financial reasons.

http://quintaldo.wordpress.com/2013/03/10/brainwashed-norway-documentary/
"They have neither the interest nor aptitude to go into computing."

Rubbish. Worse, it is stupid, ignorant and sexist rubbish that is easily disprovable by a lady sitting not to far from me, and many others I know.

I am also not talking about 'forcing' women into any role. I'm just saying we should let them know that such roles are out there, and that they could do them. Instead of restricting them, as you evidently do, to roles such as nursing and fashion.

Because you know better than them what they want. A woman should know her place, eh?

Here I have to agree with mr Jessop. I have had women in my team in the past and probably will in the future. They have been on the whole good. My only observation is their ability seems to be on a tighter bell curve. The worst are not as bad as the worst male. The best haven't measured up to the best male engineers.

Software engineering however in my view is still more art than science. There is a certain way you need to think to be the best and often that is down to spatial thinking which men are generally better at. Discard however the top 5% of the bell curve and I would say on average women have a slight edge

isam · December 2014

Sean_F said:

isam said:

Sean_F said:

isam said:
Sky News ‏@SkyNews · 7m7 minutes ago
EXPRESS FRONT PAGE: Poll finds that "51% of Britons want to leave the EU" pic.twitter.com/M6VxbzASww

Conducted by which company?
I am not sure if it is a reputable one or not.. OBR International? Gallup it seems

Actually quite interesting, it surveys 12 countries

Only Greece seem to have a less favourable view of the EU than us

MineForNothing ‏@minefornothing · 6h6 hours ago
OBR International Poll on EU membership in the UK

Stay - 49%
Leave - 51%

http://www.opinion.co.uk/perch/resources/europeanattitudesresults.pdf …

It asks whether Afghanistan should remain part of the EU!

Haha! I only read the first page!

What is that all about? Is it a wind up?

Seems like the other 11 countries are OK with the Afghans

JosiasJessop · December 2014

ZenPagan said:
My experience prior to 2002 was that we got sent on training courses for new technologies fairly often. These days it is rare.

In addition a further problem is our schools. We recently had a work experience guy from a local school. Unlike many firms I got this guy handed to me and agreed to it only on the proviso that we would actually give him work experience. This 15 year old came to us and it soon became apparent he knew little. I had to teach him about polymorphism, inheritance, interfaces etc from scratch to name just a few things they had failed to teach him. At the end his teacher came for a debriefing. We had got him doing some basic stuff which while basic was still of use to us. We got him to demonstrate to her what he had been doing then questioned her on why we had to teach him so much. Her response was "oh thats not till the a level syllabus"....many wont understand this but mr jessop will. How can you teach an oop language without at least covering the basics such as inheritance or polymorphism.

End result this guy went away with a thirst to join the ranks of software engineers because my bosses gave me time to actually teach him. His friends he told me had been mainly been tasked with making coffee or sweeping the floor

Nice to know he went back energised and wanting to go into the industry. Good job.

I'm slightly surprised you expected a 15-year old to know things like polymorphism and inheritance, yet alone human factors/interfaces in any great detail. Perhaps he should have known of them, but I would have thought that those were better taught at uni as there are so many other programming concepts to cover in the little time allotted at GCSE level? The basic concepts are simple; the details are rather complex and messy.

In the same way I wouldn't expect a 15-year old to be able to code me a microkernel in ARM assembler. Unless he was a very precocious 15-year old...

As an aside in this increasingly off-topic conversation, it's common in some companies to give work experience kids or students off main-line work. One company got very good results by putting everyone (including would-be marketeers) in the test department; both for the laborious running of tests, setting up equipment and writing test scripts in various languages. You see a heck of a lot of the company from a test department.

Many of the best coders I've known (the 'stars' I keep on wittering on about) are self-taught well before school, as indeed was I (and from your age, I guess you were as well). Self-teaching is the slowest way of learning, but also, if you can hack it, the best as you learn from your mistakes. Hopefully items like the Raspberry Pi will do what the ZX Spectrum and BBC B did, and get kids interested in real coding at a young age.

surbiton · December 2014

Tim_B said:
Luton - boy that brings back memories.

I remember as a 12 year old in the early 60s going to Luton airport, which was merely a collection of huts in those days, and going with my parents on a Sky Tours package deal to Tenerife, involving an 8 hours each way flight on a Bristol Britannia aircraft.

It was only a couple of years later that I first flew to the US, on a Super Constellation charter flight formerly of TWA, with a refueling stop at Gander in Newfoundland.

It's a long time ago.

I remember the Super Constellations though never flew in one. The first "long distance" flight I took was in a Boeing 720 - about 3 hours.

HurstLlama · December 2014

ZenPagan said:

HurstLlama said:
@JosiasJessop

"I can assure you that there is a shortage in the areas I work in (and companies are desperate to hire)"

How much do those companies spend on training and staff development? If they can't find enough people fully qualified there will be a reason and/or they need to look at other ways of getting the numbers up.
My experience prior to 2002 was that we got sent on training courses for new technologies fairly often. These days it is rare.

In addition a further problem is our schools. We recently had a work experience guy from a local school. Unlike many firms I got this guy handed to me and agreed to it only on the proviso that we would actually give him work experience. This 15 year old came to us and it soon became apparent he knew little. I had to teach him about polymorphism, inheritance, interfaces etc from scratch to name just a few things they had failed to teach him. At the end his teacher came for a debriefing. We had got him doing some basic stuff which while basic was still of use to us. We got him to demonstrate to her what he had been doing then questioned her on why we had to teach him so much. Her response was "oh thats not till the a level syllabus"....many wont understand this but mr jessop will. How can you teach an oop language without at least covering the basics such as inheritance or polymorphism.

End result this guy went away with a thirst to join the ranks of software engineers because my bosses gave me time to actually teach him. His friends he told me had been mainly been tasked with making coffee or sweeping the floor

Work experience for 15 year olds is generally a waste of everyone's time. Some companies, including it would seem yours make a genuine effort (my son did his with the Royal Navy and had a fantastic time on a well structured two week course), but for most children it is as you say a time spent on making the tea and doing very menial tasks with no learning value. With full-time education being extended to 18 it is time to scrap the Work Experience idea.

More importantly I was disappointed but not surprised to read that your company does not spend money on developing your skills and those of your colleagues. Mr. Jessop up thread also made a comment about a lack of training "for the usual reasons". Companies not prepared to spend on developing their staff are preparing to go out of business.

numbercruncher · December 2014

https://twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/546791320116035584

I make the unrounded SNP lead 23.72 points... Thanks to a bunch of people on 24, my 24.28 prediction goes up in smoke...

http://t.co/GBQ14kzbxZ

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The polling data on immigration is perhaps more nuanced tha

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