Ye Gods. This thread now has 58 mentions of the word "nigger", including one written by a PPC. If this was UKIP forums there would be about six excited stories in the Mail by now.
I don't think that Nicks "does it disparage vulnerable people" test (so insulting eg scots is less offensive) is always valid. I knew someone who referred to Scots as porridgewogs. I suspect if that was used in public other than in this context all hell would break out.
Ye Gods. This thread now has 58 mentions of the word "nigger" (59 now), including one written by a PPC. If this was UKIP forums there would be about six excited stories in the Mail by now.
Training Day! Denzel Washington calls Ethan Hawke "Ma Nigger!"
I rather like Alex Salmond's call in The Times today for a referendum in England on a new constitutional settlement including the abolition and replacement of the House of Lords. This as an alternative to the dead end of an anti-EU poll.
Whatever ones view of the Scottish referendum there is no doubt that it galvanised Scottish life in a way that no-body has experienced before. It is also clear that most people - with the exception of a few kill joys - really enjoyed the experience as perhaps the first worthwhile thing concerning politics that they had ever lived through.
Could something positive and similar happen in England?
Yes it can!
I was born too recently (as in under 50) to have had a vote on the future of my country in a way that has "galvanised ... life in a way that no-body has experienced before".
The chance to say that I have "really enjoyed the experience as perhaps the first worthwhile thing concerning politics that (I) had ever lived through" would be a fantastic experience and I'd love to tell my grandchildren that I voted to leave the EU.
I suspect that they won't thank you for it if you do; my grandchildren seem to like the idea of "Europe". They complain about quite a few things but the EU and "immigrants" never!
I rather like Alex Salmond's call in The Times today for a referendum in England on a new constitutional settlement including the abolition and replacement of the House of Lords. This as an alternative to the dead end of an anti-EU poll.
Whatever ones view of the Scottish referendum there is no doubt that it galvanised Scottish life in a way that no-body has experienced before. It is also clear that most people - with the exception of a few kill joys - really enjoyed the experience as perhaps the first worthwhile thing concerning politics that they had ever lived through.
Could something positive and similar happen in England?
Yes it can!
I was born too recently (as in under 50) to have had a vote on the future of my country in a way that has "galvanised ... life in a way that no-body has experienced before".
The chance to say that I have "really enjoyed the experience as perhaps the first worthwhile thing concerning politics that (I) had ever lived through" would be a fantastic experience and I'd love to tell my grandchildren that I voted to leave the EU.
I suspect that they won't thank you for it if you do; my grandchildren seem to like the idea of "Europe". They complain about quite a few things but the EU and "immigrants" never!
People get more eurosceptic with age, when they realise they need to start getting on the housing ladder, get decent school places for their children, travel to work on congested transport infrastucture and pay for inflated food prices.
Leaving the EU will also be looked back on in the way we look back at "Black" Wednesday. What the establishment thought would lead to isolation and stagnation actually resulted in a huge liberation.
Could be, however life in Sussex this evening is pretty damned good.
When I went to the newsagent this morning for the papers and fags I was given an unexpected present of a very nice pheasant; well hung (from the shoot West of Alborne 3 weeks ago), plucked and drawn. Then Herself came home from shopping with some vinho verde and, miracle of miracles, some lemons. The pheasant has now been jointed and is bubbling away in a herb, shallot (from the allotment) and white wine casserole and will be ready to be eaten with the zest of lemon and cubed sautee potatoes (also home grown) all washed down with lots more vinho verde.
Life don't get much better (at least not at my age).
I rather like Alex Salmond's call in The Times today for a referendum in England on a new constitutional settlement including the abolition and replacement of the House of Lords. This as an alternative to the dead end of an anti-EU poll.
Whatever ones view of the Scottish referendum there is no doubt that it galvanised Scottish life in a way that no-body has experienced before. It is also clear that most people - with the exception of a few kill joys - really enjoyed the experience as perhaps the first worthwhile thing concerning politics that they had ever lived through.
Could something positive and similar happen in England?
Yes it can!
I was born too recently (as in under 50) to have had a vote on the future of my country in a way that has "galvanised ... life in a way that no-body has experienced before".
The chance to say that I have "really enjoyed the experience as perhaps the first worthwhile thing concerning politics that (I) had ever lived through" would be a fantastic experience and I'd love to tell my grandchildren that I voted to leave the EU.
I suspect that they won't thank you for it if you do; my grandchildren seem to like the idea of "Europe". They complain about quite a few things but the EU and "immigrants" never!
My great-grandchildren will learn about the EU from the history books.
Just spotted that William Hill have slashed their SLAB GE 2015 odds e.g. 0-5 seats down from 125/1 to 66/1 and 11-15 down from 20/1 to 10/1.
11-15 @ 10/1 is value.
Agreed - I've built a reasonable position at 20/1. Interestingly, Hill's biggest odds cut was 6-10 SLAB seats which they cut from 66/1 to 25/1. Maybe they are reacting to a couple of tweets from Survation about the SNP surge pre-dating the referendum - see link;
"It’s also behind his talk of Ukip as a threat to Labour in its working-class heartlands. Evidence from the British Election Survey this week threw a hefty pinch of salt on this particular slug, but Mr Farage’s game is more subtle."
Can anyone tell me what Kirkup is discussing here?
I rather like Alex Salmond's call in The Times today for a referendum in England on a new constitutional settlement including the abolition and replacement of the House of Lords. This as an alternative to the dead end of an anti-EU poll.
Whatever ones view of the Scottish referendum there is no doubt that it galvanised Scottish life in a way that no-body has experienced before. It is also clear that most people - with the exception of a few kill joys - really enjoyed the experience as perhaps the first worthwhile thing concerning politics that they had ever lived through.
Could something positive and similar happen in England?
Yes it can!
I was born too recently (as in under 50) to have had a vote on the future of my country in a way that has "galvanised ... life in a way that no-body has experienced before".
The chance to say that I have "really enjoyed the experience as perhaps the first worthwhile thing concerning politics that (I) had ever lived through" would be a fantastic experience and I'd love to tell my grandchildren that I voted to leave the EU.
I suspect that they won't thank you for it if you do; my grandchildren seem to like the idea of "Europe". They complain about quite a few things but the EU and "immigrants" never!
People get more eurosceptic with age, when they realise they need to start getting on the housing ladder, get decent school places for their children, travel to work on congested transport infrastucture and pay for inflated food prices.
Leaving the EU will also be looked back on in the way we look back at "Black" Wednesday. What the establishment thought would lead to isolation and stagnation actually resulted in a huge liberation.
My two eldest grandchildren are a few years out of university and in the world of work,
OT has anyone stopped to wonder if the liberal use of the n-word will see this site blocked by workplace filters, thus killing the advertising income that supports it, not to mention the credibility the site garners from SpAd astroturfers?
Well, I suppose that does prove your Scottish credentials
[Kind of you to say so].
Mr. Roger, it seems we dwell in distant realms.
In a Middlesborough pub once with a Southern friend, and he asked the barman for a pint of "Vo" (the local brewery was Vaux, pronounced "Vox")
Oh how the locals laughed! The mickey taking was beyond belief, but in good spirits.
(Is mickey taking permitted? It may be derogatory to our celtic cousins?)
Do you think he may have been thinking about Shakespeare's Sir Nicholas Vaux (pronounced "Vo")? Or possibly the famous Elizabethan recusant Henry Vaux (also "Vo")?
I think the recusant guy, confusingly, was called "Vawkes".
This stuff is a minefield. I got mocked in Essex for asking the way to Theydon Bwah. It's "Boys", apparently. Also, Hainault is not pronounced like Renault.
Well, I suppose that does prove your Scottish credentials
[Kind of you to say so].
Mr. Roger, it seems we dwell in distant realms.
In a Middlesborough pub once with a Southern friend, and he asked the barman for a pint of "Vo" (the local brewery was Vaux, pronounced "Vox")
Oh how the locals laughed! The mickey taking was beyond belief, but in good spirits.
(Is mickey taking permitted? It may be derogatory to our celtic cousins?)
Do you think he may have been thinking about Shakespeare's Sir Nicholas Vaux (pronounced "Vo")? Or possibly the famous Elizabethan recusant Henry Vaux (also "Vo")?
I think the recusant guy, confusingly, was called "Vawkes".
This stuff is a minefield. I got mocked in Essex for asking the way to Theydon Bwah. It's "Boys", apparently. Also, Hainault is not pronounced like Renault.
Aurelian didn't need the EU Commission to reforge a broken empire, and Camillus didn't need a treaty to see off the Gauls.
Don't underestimate the power of a treaty!
The EU started a war between Russia and Ukraine over a trade treaty, which is an achievement that the Roman Empire was unable to match even at the height of its power.
OT has anyone stopped to wonder if the liberal use of the n-word will see this site blocked by workplace filters, thus killing the advertising income that supports it, not to mention the credibility the site garners from SpAd astroturfers?
No. The site does occasionally get blocked for being a gambling site though.
Aurelian didn't need the EU Commission to reforge a broken empire, and Camillus didn't need a treaty to see off the Gauls.
Don't underestimate the power of a treaty!
The EU started a war between Russia and Ukraine over a trade treaty, which is an achievement that the Roman Empire was unable to match even at the height of its power.
I think that's a bit hard on the EU. I get the impression that the Ukraine and Russia could each start a fight in an empty room.
Could be, however life in Sussex this evening is pretty damned good.
When I went to the newsagent this morning for the papers and fags I was given an unexpected present of a very nice pheasant; well hung (from the shoot West of Alborne 3 weeks ago), plucked and drawn. Then Herself came home from shopping with some vinho verde and, miracle of miracles, some lemons. The pheasant has now been jointed and is bubbling away in a herb, shallot (from the allotment) and white wine casserole and will be ready to be eaten with the zest of lemon and cubed sautee potatoes (also home grown) all washed down with lots more vinho verde.
Life don't get much better (at least not at my age).
Pheasant casserole with a white white based sauce?
Never tried that before - usually have gravy-based sauces with shallots, carrots, swede, etc.
OT has anyone stopped to wonder if the liberal use of the n-word will see this site blocked by workplace filters, thus killing the advertising income that supports it, not to mention the credibility the site garners from SpAd astroturfers?
No. The site does occasionally get blocked for being a gambling site though.
Certainly does. At the National Archives this site is blocked as it is deemed to have "adult content", that is to say it is about gambling. Anything to do with gambling is blocked the NA which is worth remembering if you are going there during the flat racing season.
Well, I suppose that does prove your Scottish credentials
[Kind of you to say so].
Mr. Roger, it seems we dwell in distant realms.
In a Middlesborough pub once with a Southern friend, and he asked the barman for a pint of "Vo" (the local brewery was Vaux, pronounced "Vox")
Oh how the locals laughed! The mickey taking was beyond belief, but in good spirits.
(Is mickey taking permitted? It may be derogatory to our celtic cousins?)
Do you think he may have been thinking about Shakespeare's Sir Nicholas Vaux (pronounced "Vo")? Or possibly the famous Elizabethan recusant Henry Vaux (also "Vo")?
I think the recusant guy, confusingly, was called "Vawkes".
This stuff is a minefield. I got mocked in Essex for asking the way to Theydon Bwah. It's "Boys", apparently. Also, Hainault is not pronounced like Renault.
Hainault actually comes from the Old English "Heynholt".
Well, I suppose that does prove your Scottish credentials
[Kind of you to say so].
Mr. Roger, it seems we dwell in distant realms.
In a Middlesborough pub once with a Southern friend, and he asked the barman for a pint of "Vo" (the local brewery was Vaux, pronounced "Vox")
Oh how the locals laughed! The mickey taking was beyond belief, but in good spirits.
(Is mickey taking permitted? It may be derogatory to our celtic cousins?)
Do you think he may have been thinking about Shakespeare's Sir Nicholas Vaux (pronounced "Vo")? Or possibly the famous Elizabethan recusant Henry Vaux (also "Vo")?
I think the recusant guy, confusingly, was called "Vawkes".
This stuff is a minefield. I got mocked in Essex for asking the way to Theydon Bwah. It's "Boys", apparently. Also, Hainault is not pronounced like Renault.
I seem to recall that, when I was doing missionary work in the NE, the brewery was pronounced something like Vawkes.
If you want difficulty over a car name in Essex, try asking about a Peugeot!
I rather like Alex Salmond's call in The Times today for a referendum in England on a new constitutional settlement including the abolition and replacement of the House of Lords. This as an alternative to the dead end of an anti-EU poll.
Whatever ones view of the Scottish referendum there is no doubt that it galvanised Scottish life in a way that no-body has experienced before. It is also clear that most people - with the exception of a few kill joys - really enjoyed the experience as perhaps the first worthwhile thing concerning politics that they had ever lived through.
Could something positive and similar happen in England?
" it galvanised Scottish life in a way that no-body has experienced before"
is life in Scotland really THAT crap ?
Alan, tut tut, I think the lass was referring to politics which is normally the most boring subject in the world, just look at the wanky bollocks we get here daily from a sad bunch of misfits, who obviously lead miserable lives salivating about some tosser politicians. We actually had human beings involved in the referendum as well as the supposed politicians.
"It’s also behind his talk of Ukip as a threat to Labour in its working-class heartlands. Evidence from the British Election Survey this week threw a hefty pinch of salt on this particular slug, but Mr Farage’s game is more subtle."
Can anyone tell me what Kirkup is discussing here?
No Alanbrooke life in Scotland is pretty good. However the point is politics in Scotland is also pretty good in the sense that it now involves most of the people. Unless England has changed dramatically since I left two years ago that is not the position you are in.
GeoffM. The problem is that there is little about the anti-EU campaign which matches the motivation and positivity of the Scottish YES campaign. It is why in Scotland so many of us who started out sceptical ended up as enthusiastic supporters.
The one aspect that there is in common with both campaigns, north and south - and I can only think of this one -is that both have a contempt for the Westminster elite. Hence I thought that Salmond's comments on a new wideranging constitutional settlement for England were interesting.
Could be, however life in Sussex this evening is pretty damned good.
When I went to the newsagent this morning for the papers and fags I was given an unexpected present of a very nice pheasant; well hung (from the shoot West of Alborne 3 weeks ago), plucked and drawn. Then Herself came home from shopping with some vinho verde and, miracle of miracles, some lemons. The pheasant has now been jointed and is bubbling away in a herb, shallot (from the allotment) and white wine casserole and will be ready to be eaten with the zest of lemon and cubed sautee potatoes (also home grown) all washed down with lots more vinho verde.
Life don't get much better (at least not at my age).
Pheasant casserole with a white white based sauce?
Never tried that before - usually have gravy-based sauces with shallots, carrots, swede, etc.
We do it a lot in the winter months (well not as much since the local shoot was closed when the land was sold to some idiot from the City) and it works well. The recipe we have came from Herself's late mother, where she got it from God only knows. It is certainly pre-war and may have come from a country house where the old girl was, as a young lady, a nanny.
I rather like Alex Salmond's call in The Times today for a referendum in England on a new constitutional settlement including the abolition and replacement of the House of Lords. This as an alternative to the dead end of an anti-EU poll.
Whatever ones view of the Scottish referendum there is no doubt that it galvanised Scottish life in a way that no-body has experienced before. It is also clear that most people - with the exception of a few kill joys - really enjoyed the experience as perhaps the first worthwhile thing concerning politics that they had ever lived through.
Could something positive and similar happen in England?
" it galvanised Scottish life in a way that no-body has experienced before"
is life in Scotland really THAT crap ?
Alan, tut tut, I think the lass was referring to politics which is normally the most boring subject in the world, just look at the wanky bollocks we get here daily from a sad bunch of misfits, who obviously lead miserable lives salivating about some tosser politicians. We actually had human beings involved in the referendum as well as the supposed politicians.
At least be nice while you deign to brighten our miserable misfit lives with your august presence.
I rather like Alex Salmond's call in The Times today for a referendum in England on a new constitutional settlement including the abolition and replacement of the House of Lords. This as an alternative to the dead end of an anti-EU poll.
Whatever ones view of the Scottish referendum there is no doubt that it galvanised Scottish life in a way that no-body has experienced before. It is also clear that most people - with the exception of a few kill joys - really enjoyed the experience as perhaps the first worthwhile thing concerning politics that they had ever lived through.
Could something positive and similar happen in England?
" it galvanised Scottish life in a way that no-body has experienced before"
is life in Scotland really THAT crap ?
just look at the wanky bollocks we get here daily from a sad bunch of misfits, who obviously lead miserable lives salivating about some tosser politicians.
Well, I suppose that does prove your Scottish credentials
[Kind of you to say so].
Mr. Roger, it seems we dwell in distant realms.
In a Middlesborough pub once with a Southern friend, and he asked the barman for a pint of "Vo" (the local brewery was Vaux, pronounced "Vox")
Oh how the locals laughed! The mickey taking was beyond belief, but in good spirits.
(Is mickey taking permitted? It may be derogatory to our celtic cousins?)
Do you think he may have been thinking about Shakespeare's Sir Nicholas Vaux (pronounced "Vo")? Or possibly the famous Elizabethan recusant Henry Vaux (also "Vo")?
I think the recusant guy, confusingly, was called "Vawkes".
This stuff is a minefield. I got mocked in Essex for asking the way to Theydon Bwah. It's "Boys", apparently. Also, Hainault is not pronounced like Renault.
Hainault actually comes from the Old English "Heynholt".
"Heynholt"? "Really? Never heard of the place or the word. Could provide a source please Cap'n Doc?
Or at least, it would have done had it still been intact. Unfortunately, it exploded earlier when I saw Alex Salmond had criticised a political party for running a campaign based on fear, insularity, negativity and dishonesty. I used to really admire Alex Salmond, but these days he is beyond parody. He's like Nigel Farage only even posher, more bigoted and less self-aware, which is saying quite something.
And by the way...weren't we promised that there wouldn't be more referendums on Scottish independence? Or did that only apply if the SNP got the right result?
Mr. Doethur, quite. Salmond's just a creature of bitterness, resentment and division, hence his sudden desire to vote on English matters and irritating the English by offering his opinions on how we should go about things.
Why so virulent about Alex Salmond? Agree or disagree I have never heard him express a single anti-English sentiment and to compare him with Nigel Farage is just plain daft. Could it be you are still a teensy bit frightened of someone who against significant odds led a campaign which shook the British establsihment to its foundations.
I rather like Alex Salmond's call in The Times today for a referendum in England on a new constitutional settlement including the abolition and replacement of the House of Lords. This as an alternative to the dead end of an anti-EU poll.
Whatever ones view of the Scottish referendum there is no doubt that it galvanised Scottish life in a way that no-body has experienced before. It is also clear that most people - with the exception of a few kill joys - really enjoyed the experience as perhaps the first worthwhile thing concerning politics that they had ever lived through.
Could something positive and similar happen in England?
" it galvanised Scottish life in a way that no-body has experienced before"
is life in Scotland really THAT crap ?
Alan, tut tut, I think the lass was referring to politics which is normally the most boring subject in the world, just look at the wanky bollocks we get here daily from a sad bunch of misfits, who obviously lead miserable lives salivating about some tosser politicians. We actually had human beings involved in the referendum as well as the supposed politicians.
At least be nice while you deign to brighten our miserable misfit lives with your august presence.
I was being generous and reserved , I do now spot a potentially naughty word if you are from a sheltered housing background mind you.
Well, I suppose that does prove your Scottish credentials
[Kind of you to say so].
Mr. Roger, it seems we dwell in distant realms.
In a Middlesborough pub once with a Southern friend, and he asked the barman for a pint of "Vo" (the local brewery was Vaux, pronounced "Vox")
Oh how the locals laughed! The mickey taking was beyond belief, but in good spirits.
(Is mickey taking permitted? It may be derogatory to our celtic cousins?)
Do you think he may have been thinking about Shakespeare's Sir Nicholas Vaux (pronounced "Vo")? Or possibly the famous Elizabethan recusant Henry Vaux (also "Vo")?
I think the recusant guy, confusingly, was called "Vawkes".
This stuff is a minefield. I got mocked in Essex for asking the way to Theydon Bwah. It's "Boys", apparently. Also, Hainault is not pronounced like Renault.
Hainault actually comes from the Old English "Heynholt".
"Heynholt"? "Really? Never heard of the place or the word. Could provide a source please Cap'n Doc?
It's a very ancient area in Essex, now torn from us and subsumed into Greater London. It's mainly notable nowadays for being a station at the far Eastern end of the (IMHO wildly misnamed) Central Line.
Or at least, it would have done had it still been intact. Unfortunately, it exploded earlier when I saw Alex Salmond had criticised a political party for running a campaign based on fear, insularity, negativity and dishonesty. I used to really admire Alex Salmond, but these days he is beyond parody. He's like Nigel Farage only even posher, more bigoted and less self-aware, which is saying quite something.
And by the way...weren't we promised that there wouldn't be more referendums on Scottish independence? Or did that only apply if the SNP got the right result?
I think the problem with Salmond is that Farage is doing exactly what he did. They are both basically complaining about outside powers having rule over their country, and how that is responsible for all the country's ills. In fact, practically every argument put forward by the SNP, bar the currency one, is one put forward by UKIP too - control of the borders, and the need to control services, and the inability to take part in major international bodies in their own right, etc. etc.
Moreover, their backers are all very unsavoury. Salmond cosies up to the likes of Souter, Trump and Murdoch, while Farage has Wheeler and the car insurance sales bloke whose name I can never remember. As for anti-English - I think you would find Alex Salmond's description of the British government as 'incompetent Lord Snootys' basically similar to Farage's accusation that the European Commission were a bunch of 'shady second-hand car salesmen from third-rate countries.' They are both fairly careful, in public at least, to lay off the countries/peoples concerned (some of their backers, e.g. Godfrey Bloom and Nicola Sturgeon, are less discreet). . They look and sound very alike to me (not physically, of course, emotionally). The tragedy is that they can't see it.
And I would finally point out, as you would find out had you taken the trouble to Google my username, that I am actually Welsh rather than British. Hence why I used to admire Salmond, as a Celtic nationalist taking on the English hegemony, which I would point out has been far more unhelpful and indeed damaging to large parts of my country than it has ever been to yours. But I have no time for tedious, whining bullies with nil self-awareness.
I rather like Alex Salmond's call in The Times today for a referendum in England on a new constitutional settlement including the abolition and replacement of the House of Lords. This as an alternative to the dead end of an anti-EU poll.
Whatever ones view of the Scottish referendum there is no doubt that it galvanised Scottish life in a way that no-body has experienced before. It is also clear that most people - with the exception of a few kill joys - really enjoyed the experience as perhaps the first worthwhile thing concerning politics that they had ever lived through.
Could something positive and similar happen in England?
" it galvanised Scottish life in a way that no-body has experienced before"
is life in Scotland really THAT crap ?
just look at the wanky bollocks we get here daily from a sad bunch of misfits, who obviously lead miserable lives salivating about some tosser politicians.
Someone given you a mirror?
suddenly the saddest of all appears early from her crypt , drawn by the witty , scintillating sarcasm and rapid repartee.
Mr. Doethur, ironically, 'British' historically means more Welsh than English (William Wallace was known in his lifetime as William the Briton, as in Brythonic[sp] Celt. The Kingdom of the Rock, from whence he came, was a Welsh Celtic realm in what is today Scotland).
Miss Lass, he's a creature of deceit and division, smug as hell and more dislikeable than Balls.
A Scottish MP suggesting they'd vote on English matters [which are devolved] is unacceptable.
He failed in his campaign, incidentally. So what 'significant odds' did he beat?
Mr. Corporeal, up to you. But don't leave it until Christmas Eve and then spend the day itself fiddling with numbers.
MD , innocent and gullible as you are , you are unable to spot a genius amongst fools. Not your fault given you have been brought up listening to those half witted southern numpties at Westminster.
I think the problem with Salmond is that Farage is doing exactly what he did. They are both basically complaining about outside powers having rule over their country, and how that is responsible for all the country's ills. In fact, practically every argument put forward by the SNP, bar the currency one, is one put forward by UKIP too - control of the borders, and the need to control services, and the inability to take part in major international bodies in their own right, etc. etc.
Moreover, their backers are all very unsavoury. Salmond cosies up to the likes of Souter, Trump and Murdoch, while Farage has Wheeler and the car insurance sales bloke whose name I can never remember. As for anti-English - I think you would find Alex Salmond's description of the British government as 'incompetent Lord Snootys' basically similar to Farage's accusation that the European Commission were a bunch of 'shady second-hand car salesmen from third-rate countries.'
They look and sound very alike to me (not physically, of course, emotionally). The tragedy is that they can't see it.
And I would finally point out, as you would find out had you taken the trouble to Google my username, that I am actually Welsh rather than British.
LOL, you sound as if you are a leek short of a soup mix. You are awarded the Turnip of the day , mind those sheep now.
Miss Lass, I suspect we do. Nothing wrong with that, of course.
You need not convince me that Labour Scottish MPs will interfere in English matters - that's Labour's official policy.
Mr. G, just because I'm a paragon of virtue doesn't mean I'm not slyer than a weasel-king. Salmond promised to spend oil (worth well over $100 a barrel) on both current spending and to create a wealth fund, and that the 'millstone around Scotland's neck' [the pound] would be kept. It categorically would not, as all the major parties and the British electorate (outside of Scotland) was dead against it.
Salmond is a clever political operator. But he's also intent on fostering division and has a fantastical imagination better suited to the realm of fiction.
What I was going on to say before a was distracted by a phone call was that every Labour , Liberal and the one Conservative MP from Scotland ALWAYS vote on English business.
For my sins I am one of the Independent's few Scottish readers and therefore I actually read Salmond's recent interview. The two examples he gave of SNP votes on English issues were on 1) tuition fees which were imposed on England by the votes of Scottish Labour MPs with the SNP voting against. and 2) Foundation hospitals where again Scots Labour carried the day for Blair in 2003 with the SNP voting against.
I still think your views on Salmond seem born out of anxiety rather than logic. They don't do you much credit.
Mr. Corporeal, fair enough. I get a similar feeling towards the end of a certain type of writing [writing both serious and comedy stuff means alternating can be quite refreshing].
Or at least, it would have done had it still been intact. Unfortunately, it exploded earlier when I saw Alex Salmond had criticised a political party for running a campaign based on fear, insularity, negativity and dishonesty. I used to really admire Alex Salmond, but these days he is beyond parody. He's like Nigel Farage only even posher, more bigoted and less self-aware, which is saying quite something.
And by the way...weren't we promised that there wouldn't be more referendums on Scottish independence? Or did that only apply if the SNP got the right result?
LOL, an unconscious comedienne
Malcolmg, I'm a man. Therefore the word you are looking for is 'comedian'.
At least learn to speak English. As a Scotsman it is doubtless your first language, given that only about 30% of the current mass of Scotland is a native area for Gaelic (the rest being a mix of English - about 45% - Manx (10%) and Deeside Gaelic (the rest)). So it would really behove you to understand it.
Has it ever occurred to you that the reason people despise you and mock you is because you are so thoroughly unpleasant? You are rude, dishonest and have never engaged meaningfully with the arguments, preferring to throw around childish insults that demonstrate your intellectual and moral inferiority (and perhaps a lack of self-belief)? You sum up all that is far wrong with the modern SNP (and sad though I am to admit it, modern Plaid Cymru under Leanne Wood).
(continued) As long as you blame others for your ills, rather than trying to sort them out yourself, you will continue to be a laughing-stock. As is all too painfully apparent while looking at the government of my unfortunate country, which refuses to sort things out that are eminently soluble, instead preferring to blame England and hope to reap some political benefit.
And I reconcile that with my earlier remark on Wales by pointing out that, historically, Wales has suffered a lot from the English refusal to allow it to be governed in the only language most of its people spoke. I don't think it was deliberate, but it kept Wales as an economic and social backwater for centuries, because anybody who could leave and make money could not go back. But that was then, and whatever historical reasons there may be for anti-English resentment, this is now. And the simple fact is Wales is helped enormously by being part of the UK. It allows money to be spent in our impoverished areas (some of which are comparable, in economic circumstances, to Greece). It allows our brightest young students the chance of a good education at some of the best universities in the world on very favourable terms (the English taxpayer subsidises lower fees). It gives us tourists who come to admire the mountains. And without all that, believe me, Wales would make Albania look like a paradise.
What I want to see is a government that will accept that and work with the opportunities it gives us. But there's no chance of that, and that's why I prefer for the moment to live in first Gloucestershire and now Staffordshire.
I rather like Alex Salmond's call in The Times today for a referendum in England on a new constitutional settlement including the abolition and replacement of the House of Lords. This as an alternative to the dead end of an anti-EU poll.
Whatever ones view of the Scottish referendum there is no doubt that it galvanised Scottish life in a way that no-body has experienced before. It is also clear that most people - with the exception of a few kill joys - really enjoyed the experience as perhaps the first worthwhile thing concerning politics that they had ever lived through.
Could something positive and similar happen in England?
Yes it can!
I was born too recently (as in under 50) to have had a vote on the future of my country in a way that has "galvanised ... life in a way that no-body has experienced before".
The chance to say that I have "really enjoyed the experience as perhaps the first worthwhile thing concerning politics that (I) had ever lived through" would be a fantastic experience and I'd love to tell my grandchildren that I voted to leave the EU.
I suspect that they won't thank you for it if you do; my grandchildren seem to like the idea of "Europe". They complain about quite a few things but the EU and "immigrants" never!
People get more eurosceptic with age, when they realise they need to start getting on the housing ladder, get decent school places for their children, travel to work on congested transport infrastucture and pay for inflated food prices.
Leaving the EU will also be looked back on in the way we look back at "Black" Wednesday. What the establishment thought would lead to isolation and stagnation actually resulted in a huge liberation.
My two eldest grandchildren are a few years out of university and in the world of work,
So in the first few years of enjoying life on a salary before they start thinking long-term about economic planning for having a family?
Who knows, maybe your grandkids will stay Europhile, but the bulk of the population won't. If the congestion of the South East increases at the rate of the last 20 years for the next 20 year, the complaints will just keep on rising. I remember a few years ago when people were arguing that economic struggle was driving opposition to immigration and the EU, but those issues remain just as salient even as the economy's status as the most important issue falls away.
Mr. Divvie, the votes in the referendum were all Scottish. The votes on devolved matters [elsewhere] should, in Westminster, be entirely down to English votes.
Well, I suppose that does prove your Scottish credentials
[Kind of you to say so].
Mr. Roger, it seems we dwell in distant realms.
In a Middlesborough pub once with a Southern friend, and he asked the barman for a pint of "Vo" (the local brewery was Vaux, pronounced "Vox")
Oh how the locals laughed! The mickey taking was beyond belief, but in good spirits.
(Is mickey taking permitted? It may be derogatory to our celtic cousins?)
Do you think he may have been thinking about Shakespeare's Sir Nicholas Vaux (pronounced "Vo")? Or possibly the famous Elizabethan recusant Henry Vaux (also "Vo")?
I think the recusant guy, confusingly, was called "Vawkes".
This stuff is a minefield. I got mocked in Essex for asking the way to Theydon Bwah. It's "Boys", apparently. Also, Hainault is not pronounced like Renault.
Hainault actually comes from the Old English "Heynholt".
"Heynholt"? "Really? Never heard of the place or the word. Could provide a source please Cap'n Doc?
guten Appetit with the pheasant sounds just right for a winter evening.
Here in Warwickshire we've just finished home-made spaetzle with pork mushroom and cream while herself has had pink lamb steaks with duchesse potatoes and a balsamic reduction.
I didn't refer to you at all or your origins. I will leave the personal stuff to you and Morris Dancer. It does neither of your any credit as it happens.
One difficulty you seem to have is that you seem to recycle and even perhaps believe nonsense as if it were fact. I used to work in renewables and for much of the last three years Salmond has been under assault by Trump in pretty extreme newspaper adverts for his Government's support for an offshore wind demonstrator off Aberdeen.
Salmond seemed totally unconcerned by the attacks which he shrugged off with humour and style. The point being your definition of "cosying up" just seems completely at odds with reality.
I do think your personal attacks on Salmond are based on his continuing potential to upset the establishment applecart.
I didn't refer to you at all or your origins. I will leave the personal stuff to you and Morris Dancer. It does neither of your any credit as it happens.
One difficulty you seem to have is that you seem to recycle and even perhaps believe nonsense as if it were fact. I used to work in renewables and for much of the last three years Salmond has been under assault by Trump in pretty extreme newspaper adverts for his Government's support for an offshore wind demonstrator off Aberdeen.
Salmond seemed totally unconcerned by the attacks which he shrugged off with humour and style. The point being your definition of "cosying up" just seems completely at odds with reality.
I do think your personal attacks on Salmond are based on his continuing potential to upset the establishment applecart.
Nah he's a troughing populist with self lining pockets and people outside Scotland see through his guff.
Miss Lass, I haven't said anything personal against you.
As regards my views on Salmond: smugness = the arrogant insistence that keeping the pound (a millstone around Scotland's neck) was viable, deceit = indicating oil money would be spent on both a wealth fund and current spending.
Politicians are often criticised for personal characteristics. It isn't kind of vile and wicked sin, especially when the criticism is valid.
Mr. Divvie, the votes in the referendum were all Scottish. The votes on devolved matters [elsewhere] should, in Westminster, be entirely down to English votes.
Perhaps you shouldn't have used the phrase 'offering his opinions' then, or can we look forward to a self-enforced purdah from you and your PB cohorts on matters Scottish?
As they have an MP in the House of Commons and doubtless intend to stand in every seat, it's hard to think of a plausible reason to exclude them.
Personally, I think that if the debate is not solely between Cameron and Miliband (as the Prime Ministerial candidates) it should include as wide a range of views as possible. After all, isn't choice the essence of democracy?
How about this for a working rule for participation:
'Any party which is represented in the House of Commons and is fielding candidates in 80% or more of constituencies'
which I think would include five parties at the present time. (It obviously can't be all seats, as Northern Ireland and Buckingham are not included.)
That might lead to some really interesting debates. They might even be fun to watch...
What I was going on to say before a was distracted by a phone call was that every Labour , Liberal and the one Conservative MP from Scotland ALWAYS vote on English business.
For my sins I am one of the Independent's few Scottish readers and therefore I actually read Salmond's recent interview. The two examples he gave of SNP votes on English issues were on 1) tuition fees which were imposed on England by the votes of Scottish Labour MPs with the SNP voting against. and 2) Foundation hospitals where again Scots Labour carried the day for Blair in 2003 with the SNP voting against.
I still think your views on Salmond seem born out of anxiety rather than logic. They don't do you much credit.
The last time we had a discussion on the nasty Scots imposing their views on the poor downtrodden English, one PBer pointed out that some Scottish Labour MPs had voted against liberalisation of anti-gay legislation (I think, same-sex marriage) [edit] in England, which is not really on.
On a point of detail, and to be fair to the solitary Tory, Mr Mundell, he did abstain on at least one of the student tuition fee votes, though I forget which one that was.
I am pretty new to this site so allow me one last comment for tonight.
I started a thread because I thought there was something of interest in Salmond's interview in the Times about a new English constitutional revolution. I was actually more interested in the thought than in the person delivering it. Not one of the three of you wanted to take that forward but instead wished to fling largely schoolboy insults at Salmond.
I read into that behaviour anxiety or insecurity on your part which is often, although not exclusively, a male thing. I suspect you attack Salmond in often ridiculous hyperbole because you fear him.
I hope that in my next foray on this site I will come across people who want to take on the argument and if not then at least have a bit of humour not a lot of bitterness.
Mr. Divvie, the votes in the referendum were all Scottish. The votes on devolved matters [elsewhere] should, in Westminster, be entirely down to English votes.
I didn't refer to you at all or your origins. I will leave the personal stuff to you and Morris Dancer. It does neither of your any credit as it happens.
One difficulty you seem to have is that you seem to recycle and even perhaps believe nonsense as if it were fact. I used to work in renewables and for much of the last three years Salmond has been under assault by Trump in pretty extreme newspaper adverts for his Government's support for an offshore wind demonstrator off Aberdeen.
Salmond seemed totally unconcerned by the attacks which he shrugged off with humour and style. The point being your definition of "cosying up" just seems completely at odds with reality.
I do think your personal attacks on Salmond are based on his continuing potential to upset the establishment applecart.
Nah he's a troughing populist with self lining pockets and people outside Scotland see through his guff.
Or their media and newspapers portray him as one. Compare him with, say, the average Labour cabinet minister, or even backbencher.
What I was going on to say before a was distracted by a phone call was that every Labour , Liberal and the one Conservative MP from Scotland ALWAYS vote on English business.
For my sins I am one of the Independent's few Scottish readers and therefore I actually read Salmond's recent interview. The two examples he gave of SNP votes on English issues were on 1) tuition fees which were imposed on England by the votes of Scottish Labour MPs with the SNP voting against. and 2) Foundation hospitals where again Scots Labour carried the day for Blair in 2003 with the SNP voting against.
I still think your views on Salmond seem born out of anxiety rather than logic. They don't do you much credit.
The last time we had a discussion on the nasty Scots imposing their views on the poor downtrodden English, one PBer pointed out that some Scottish Labour MPs had voted against liberalisation of anti-gay legislation (I think, same-sex marriage).
On a point of detail, and to be fair to the solitary Tory, Mr Mundell, he did abstain on at least one of the student tuition fee votes, though I forget which one that was.
ah yes the media, back to that one ? A man with an entire surgery of spin doctors running a government being bullied by 6 blokes with notepads and cameras.
Or at least, it would have done had it still been intact. Unfortunately, it exploded earlier when I saw Alex Salmond had criticised a political party for running a campaign based on fear, insularity, negativity and dishonesty. I used to really admire Alex Salmond, but these days he is beyond parody. He's like Nigel Farage only even posher, more bigoted and less self-aware, which is saying quite something.
And by the way...weren't we promised that there wouldn't be more referendums on Scottish independence? Or did that only apply if the SNP got the right result?
LOL, an unconscious comedienne
Malcolmg, I'm a man. Therefore the word you are looking for is 'comedian'.
At least learn to speak English. As a Scotsman it is doubtless your first language, given that only about 30% of the current mass of Scotland is a native area for Gaelic (the rest being a mix of English - about 45% - Manx (10%) and Deeside Gaelic (the rest)). So it would really behove you to understand it.
Has it ever occurred to you that the reason people despise you and mock you is because you are so thoroughly unpleasant? You are rude, dishonest and have never engaged meaningfully with the arguments, preferring to throw around childish insults that demonstrate your intellectual and moral inferiority (and perhaps a lack of self-belief)? You sum up all that is far wrong with the modern SNP (and sad though I am to admit it, modern Plaid Cymru under Leanne Wood).
(continued)
Dear Dear, I have yet to see anyone on here fit to lick my boots never mind mock me. Certainly not someone who cannot even spot the obvious. Your pathetically childish insulting of Alex Salmond is supposedly some great intellectual point I am supposed to debate. Take the leak out of your erchie and let us hear more sense than comes out of your mouth. "I'm a man" , what a classic.
I am pretty new to this site so allow me one last comment for tonight.
I started a thread because I thought there was something of interest in Salmond's interview in the Times about a new English constitutional revolution. I was actually more interested in the thought than in the person delivering it. Not one of the three of you wanted to take that forward but instead wished to fling largely schoolboy insults at Salmond.
I read into that behaviour anxiety or insecurity on your part which is often, although not exclusively, a male thing. I suspect you attack Salmond in often ridiculous hyperbole because you fear him.
I hope that in my next foray on this site I will come across people who want to take on the argument and if not then at least have a bit of humour not a lot of bitterness.
oh good then maybe we'll get a Nat who'll answer questions on Scotland's economy instead of running a mile. Look forward to it.
I didn't refer to you at all or your origins. I will leave the personal stuff to you and Morris Dancer. It does neither of your any credit as it happens.
One difficulty you seem to have is that you seem to recycle and even perhaps believe nonsense as if it were fact. I used to work in renewables and for much of the last three years Salmond has been under assault by Trump in pretty extreme newspaper adverts for his Government's support for an offshore wind demonstrator off Aberdeen.
Salmond seemed totally unconcerned by the attacks which he shrugged off with humour and style. The point being your definition of "cosying up" just seems completely at odds with reality.
I do think your personal attacks on Salmond are based on his continuing potential to upset the establishment applecart.
I was thinking of the infamous golf course, actually, which to my mind is one of the more egregious examples of central government overruling perfectly reasonable local objections for reasons which are painfully obvious. As for Murdoch and Souter...well, I have to admit I admire you for refusing to defend the indefensible.
I am not a member of the establishment and I am baffled by the fact that you think I am opposed to him because he is 'upsetting their applecart'. I despise precisely because he has become part of the establishment while pretending otherwise. Not for any other reason.
And I have not 'recycled nonsense' - I admit to being an avid recycler of all my household rubbish, because as a good Cardi I despise waste, but there the accuracy of your comment ends. I note incidentally you can give no specific examples of that. I have pointed out obvious parallels between Farage and Salmond. The mere fact that I suspect they are uncomfortable and disappointing to both of us is no reason not to do so.
I would finally point out you were the one who made assumptions about my background and therefore made it 'personal'. I was merely putting you right with my response. If I went further out of I think pardonable irritation at the assumptions you had made, I apologise for upsetting you.
I know nothing about Morris Dancer's background. He can speak for himself. These are solely my views on Salmond. Should he change again, and become a fair-minded and intelligent champion of Scotland, I will be delighted.
I am pretty new to this site so allow me one last comment for tonight.
I started a thread because I thought there was something of interest in Salmond's interview in the Times about a new English constitutional revolution. I was actually more interested in the thought than in the person delivering it. Not one of the three of you wanted to take that forward but instead wished to fling largely schoolboy insults at Salmond.
I read into that behaviour anxiety or insecurity on your part which is often, although not exclusively, a male thing. I suspect you attack Salmond in often ridiculous hyperbole because you fear him.
I hope that in my next foray on this site I will come across people who want to take on the argument and if not then at least have a bit of humour not a lot of bitterness.
Quite so. It's all part of the 'wish he would go away' sentiment. What really jarred was the reference to Trump: as you said earlier, this is gross ignorance of the reality in Scotland: a situation inherited from Scottish Labour.
One problem on this site, by the way, is that we don't have any Scottish Labour posters (and apparently didn't, even before the disaster of the independence referendum campaign). A real shame, especially as all we get are Scottish Tories saying how wonderful Mr Murphy is.
must be bad , thinks I am too delicate to see them
you are a bit of a petal malc :-)
Alan, you being taking in by that numpty up thread, am I being mocked and despised here or are you extracting the urine. I am too intellectually challenged to be able to work it out.
Miss Lass, you cannot complain people are being personal about Salmond in one breath and then attack them for male insecurity and hyperbole in the next.
Salmond lost his referendum in Scotland and is now talking about one in England. The changes needed for England (in my view a Parliament, possibly with English votes for English laws in the interim period) are a matter for the English to decide.
As someone from another part of the UK, who wants to make Englishmen and Scotsmen foreigners to one another, and who is seeking election to the UK Parliament where he has indicated he may vote on English-only matters, Salmond's views on this are frankly unwelcome and a period of silence from him would be welcome.
I don't want the discussion about what happens in England to be coloured by the utterances of a man who does not live here, is not from here and wishes the UK to end. His very separatist desires prejudice his opinion and taint it beyond hope of objectivity, inclining it towards divisiveness.
I am pretty new to this site so allow me one last comment for tonight.
I started a thread because I thought there was something of interest in Salmond's interview in the Times about a new English constitutional revolution. I was actually more interested in the thought than in the person delivering it. Not one of the three of you wanted to take that forward but instead wished to fling largely schoolboy insults at Salmond.
I read into that behaviour anxiety or insecurity on your part which is often, although not exclusively, a male thing. I suspect you attack Salmond in often ridiculous hyperbole because you fear him.
I hope that in my next foray on this site I will come across people who want to take on the argument and if not then at least have a bit of humour not a lot of bitterness.
If you expect intellectual comment on Scotland or Scottish politics , this is not the place to come to.
Dear Dear, I have yet to see anyone on here fit to lick my boots never mind mock me. Certainly not someone who cannot even spot the obvious. Your pathetically childish insulting of Alex Salmond is supposedly some great intellectual point I am supposed to debate. Take the leak out of your erchie and let us hear more sense than comes out of your mouth. "I'm a man" , what a classic.
Thank you, malcolmg. It saves a lot of effort when you prove my points for me.
I do actually feel rather sorry for you, although you doubtless don't believe me. I do hope one day you will be able to work for a great Scotland, rather than just hating people for disagreeing with you.
ndchildren are a few years out of university and in the world of work,
So in the first few years of enjoying life on a salary before they start thinking long-term about economic planning for having a family?
Who knows, maybe your grandkids will stay Europhile, but the bulk of the population won't. If the congestion of the South East increases at the rate of the last 20 years for the next 20 year, the complaints will just keep on rising. I remember a few years ago when people were arguing that economic struggle was driving opposition to immigration and the EU, but those issues remain just as salient even as the economy's status as the most important issue falls away. ........................................................................................................... Actually, Socrates, they are both teachers so are complaining about the difficulties imposed upon them by the iniquitous Mr Gove. We know he's, thankfully, gone, but the damage that he has done lives on.
For example, the elder doesn't yet know what the exam structure in her subject will be next year so cannot advise her students. Those students will be applying for University within a year or two!
As they have an MP in the House of Commons and doubtless intend to stand in every seat, it's hard to think of a plausible reason to exclude them.
Apologies for snipping lots of other very interesting points but this stood out. I am sure it isn't correct about them intending to stand in every seat although I would have to resort to The Google to confirm. And I thought that candidate numbers are a factor in at least the advertising and PPB allocations if not debate participation directly.
I don't think that makes your other points less valid but it changes the context rather.
I didn't refer to you at all or your origins. I will leave the personal stuff to you and Morris Dancer. It does neither of your any credit as it happens.
One difficulty you seem to have is that you seem to recycle and even perhaps believe nonsense as if it were fact. I used to work in renewables and for much of the last three years Salmond has been under assault by Trump in pretty extreme newspaper adverts for his Government's support for an offshore wind demonstrator off Aberdeen.
Salmond seemed totally unconcerned by the attacks which he shrugged off with humour and style. The point being your definition of "cosying up" just seems completely at odds with reality.
I do think your personal attacks on Salmond are based on his continuing potential to upset the establishment applecart.
I was thinking of the infamous golf course, actually, which to my mind is one of the more egregious examples of central government overruling perfectly reasonable local objections for reasons which are painfully obvious. As for Murdoch and Souter...well, I have to admit I admire you for refusing to defend the indefensible.
I am not a member of the establishment and I am baffled by the fact that you think I am opposed to him because he is 'upsetting their applecart'. I despise precisely because he has become part of the establishment while pretending otherwise. Not for any other reason.
And I have not 'recycled nonsense' - I admit to being an avid recycler of all my household rubbish, because as a good Cardi I despise waste, but there the accuracy of your comment ends. I note incidentally you can give no specific examples of that. I have pointed out obvious parallels between Farage and Salmond. The mere fact that I suspect they are uncomfortable and disappointing to both of us is no reason not to do so.
I would finally point out you were the one who made assumptions about my background and therefore made it 'personal'. I was merely putting you right with my response. If I went further out of I think pardonable irritation at the assumptions you had made, I apologise for upsetting you.
I know nothing about Morris Dancer's background. He can speak for himself. These are solely my views on Salmond. Should he change again, and become a fair-minded and intelligent champion of Scotland, I will be delighted.
How do you expect people to take anything you post seriously when you cannot even spell your name properly , someone needs to give you some tips on English. Maybe when you get to secondary school someone will sort you out.
ndchildren are a few years out of university and in the world of work,
So in the first few years of enjoying life on a salary before they start thinking long-term about economic planning for having a family?
Who knows, maybe your grandkids will stay Europhile, but the bulk of the population won't. If the congestion of the South East increases at the rate of the last 20 years for the next 20 year, the complaints will just keep on rising. I remember a few years ago when people were arguing that economic struggle was driving opposition to immigration and the EU, but those issues remain just as salient even as the economy's status as the most important issue falls away.
Actually, Socrates, they are both teachers so are complaining about the difficulties imposed upon them by the iniquitous Mr Gove. We know he's, thankfully, gone, but the damage that he has done lives on.
For example, the elder doesn't yet know what the exam structure in her subject will be next year so cannot advise her students. Those students will be applying for University within a year or two!
I think you'll find it's actually Fatcha's fault really.
must be bad , thinks I am too delicate to see them
you are a bit of a petal malc :-)
Alan, you being taking in by that numpty up thread, am I being mocked and despised here or are you extracting the urine. I am too intellectually challenged to be able to work it out.
not at all malc, you are always someone who isn't afraid of robust debate. And while we've had a bit of sport over the years, you've never said anything that genuinely offends me.
How do you expect people to take anything you post seriously when you cannot even spell your name properly , someone needs to give you some tips on English. Maybe when you get to secondary school someone will sort you out.
Miss Lass, you cannot complain people are being personal about Salmond in one breath and then attack them for male insecurity and hyperbole in the next.
Salmond lost his referendum in Scotland and is now talking about one in England. The changes needed for England (in my view a Parliament, possibly with English votes for English laws in the interim period) are a matter for the English to decide.
As someone from another part of the UK, who wants to make Englishmen and Scotsmen foreigners to one another, and who is seeking election to the UK Parliament where he has indicated he may vote on English-only matters, Salmond's views on this are frankly unwelcome and a period of silence from him would be welcome.
I don't want the discussion about what happens in England to be coloured by the utterances of a man who does not live here, is not from here and wishes the UK to end. His very separatist desires prejudice his opinion and taint it beyond hope of objectivity, inclining it towards divisiveness.
He will soon be living there MD and where is all this UK , one team , pooling and sharing , one nation crap. You want everything to just be English. Should we not be allowed to comment on UK matters given we are part of it.
ndchildren are a few years out of university and in the world of work,
So in the first few years of enjoying life on a salary before they start thinking long-term about economic planning for having a family?
Who knows, maybe your grandkids will stay Europhile, but the bulk of the population won't. If the congestion of the South East increases at the rate of the last 20 years for the next 20 year, the complaints will just keep on rising. I remember a few years ago when people were arguing that economic struggle was driving opposition to immigration and the EU, but those issues remain just as salient even as the economy's status as the most important issue falls away.
Actually, Socrates, they are both teachers so are complaining about the difficulties imposed upon them by the iniquitous Mr Gove. We know he's, thankfully, gone, but the damage that he has done lives on.
For example, the elder doesn't yet know what the exam structure in her subject will be next year so cannot advise her students. Those students will be applying for University within a year or two!
I think you'll find it's actually Fatcha's fault really.
I've never heard either of them mention her! I rarely do either. Actually, IIRC, it was Sir Keith Joseph's fault!
Miss Lass, you cannot complain people are being personal about Salmond in one breath and then attack them for male insecurity and hyperbole in the next.
Salmond lost his referendum in Scotland and is now talking about one in England. The changes needed for England (in my view a Parliament, possibly with English votes for English laws in the interim period) are a matter for the English to decide.
As someone from another part of the UK, who wants to make Englishmen and Scotsmen foreigners to one another, and who is seeking election to the UK Parliament where he has indicated he may vote on English-only matters, Salmond's views on this are frankly unwelcome and a period of silence from him would be welcome.
I don't want the discussion about what happens in England to be coloured by the utterances of a man who does not live here, is not from here and wishes the UK to end. His very separatist desires prejudice his opinion and taint it beyond hope of objectivity, inclining it towards divisiveness.
He will soon be living there MD and where is all this UK , one team , pooling and sharing , one nation crap. You want everything to just be English. Should we not be allowed to comment on UK matters given we are part of it.
It's perfectly legitimate for you to comment on UK matters. Just not English only ones.
Mr. G, I want an English Parliament with equal powers and responsibilities as the Scottish. In the interim, English votes for English laws would suffice.
And I would greatly prefer it if Salmond stayed north of the border.
The English constitutional settlement is an English matter, not a UK one. As the English had no say in Scotland's decision, so the Scottish should have no say in England's.
Miss Lass, you cannot complain people are being personal about Salmond in one breath and then attack them for male insecurity and hyperbole in the next.
Salmond lost his referendum in Scotland and is now talking about one in England. The changes needed for England (in my view a Parliament, possibly with English votes for English laws in the interim period) are a matter for the English to decide.
As someone from another part of the UK, who wants to make Englishmen and Scotsmen foreigners to one another, and who is seeking election to the UK Parliament where he has indicated he may vote on English-only matters, Salmond's views on this are frankly unwelcome and a period of silence from him would be welcome.
I don't want the discussion about what happens in England to be coloured by the utterances of a man who does not live here, is not from here and wishes the UK to end. His very separatist desires prejudice his opinion and taint it beyond hope of objectivity, inclining it towards divisiveness.
Mr D, the referendum - unless someone can show otherwise from behind the Times paywall - which Mr S was suggesting is apparently on the governance of the UK and in particular on the HoL. It seems to me that we are still in the UK for the foreseeable future and that the HoL is - the last time I saw - a UK body: and therefore it is legitimate for Mr S to express views on that. Or have I missed something?
I am pretty new to this site so allow me one last comment for tonight.
I started a thread because I thought there was something of interest in Salmond's interview in the Times about a new English constitutional revolution. I was actually more interested in the thought than in the person delivering it. Not one of the three of you wanted to take that forward but instead wished to fling largely schoolboy insults at Salmond.
I read into that behaviour anxiety or insecurity on your part which is often, although not exclusively, a male thing. I suspect you attack Salmond in often ridiculous hyperbole because you fear him.
I hope that in my next foray on this site I will come across people who want to take on the argument and if not then at least have a bit of humour not a lot of bitterness.
Quite so. It's all part of the 'wish he would go away' sentiment. What really jarred was the reference to Trump: as you said earlier, this is gross ignorance of the reality in Scotland: a situation inherited from Scottish Labour.
One problem on this site, by the way, is that we don't have any Scottish Labour posters (and apparently didn't, even before the disaster of the independence referendum campaign). A real shame, especially as all we get are Scottish Tories saying how wonderful Mr Murphy is.
It is surprising that there are no SLAB posters - there are a fair number of us who are ex-SLAB though. Perhaps Mr Murphy will eventually star in his own biopic titled "The last Labour supporter in Scotland".
Mr. Carnyx, Salmond's copy and pasted a Labour policy and added a footnote.
The question of urgency is England's governance. Prolonged deliberation, regionalisation bullshit and the House of Lords are all unnecessary distractions muttered by those wishing obfuscation rather than clarity and delay rather than decisiveness.
Salmond does not want a sustainable UK, by definition. An English Parliament, with English votes for English laws in the meantime, could provide that stability.
Comments
I don't think that Nicks "does it disparage vulnerable people" test (so insulting eg scots is less offensive) is always valid. I knew someone who referred to Scots as porridgewogs. I suspect if that was used in public other than in this context all hell would break out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuedZ1Y_dU4
They complain about quite a few things but the EU and "immigrants" never!
Leaving the EU will also be looked back on in the way we look back at "Black" Wednesday. What the establishment thought would lead to isolation and stagnation actually resulted in a huge liberation.
When I went to the newsagent this morning for the papers and fags I was given an unexpected present of a very nice pheasant; well hung (from the shoot West of Alborne 3 weeks ago), plucked and drawn. Then Herself came home from shopping with some vinho verde and, miracle of miracles, some lemons. The pheasant has now been jointed and is bubbling away in a herb, shallot (from the allotment) and white wine casserole and will be ready to be eaten with the zest of lemon and cubed sautee potatoes (also home grown) all washed down with lots more vinho verde.
Life don't get much better (at least not at my age).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaORknS1Dk
https://twitter.com/Survation/status/545972095378030592/photo/1
Aurelian didn't need the EU Commission to reforge a broken empire, and Camillus didn't need a treaty to see off the Gauls.
Can anyone tell me what Kirkup is discussing here?
This stuff is a minefield. I got mocked in Essex for asking the way to Theydon Bwah. It's "Boys", apparently.
Also, Hainault is not pronounced like Renault.
The EU started a war between Russia and Ukraine over a trade treaty, which is an achievement that the Roman Empire was unable to match even at the height of its power.
Never tried that before - usually have gravy-based sauces with shallots, carrots, swede, etc.
If you want difficulty over a car name in Essex, try asking about a Peugeot!
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/09/ukip-inflict-damage-tories-labour-election-survey-finds
No Alanbrooke life in Scotland is pretty good. However the point is politics in Scotland is also pretty good in the sense that it now involves most of the people. Unless England has changed dramatically since I left two years ago that is not the position you are in.
GeoffM. The problem is that there is little about the anti-EU campaign which matches the motivation and positivity of the Scottish YES campaign. It is why in Scotland so many of us who started out sceptical ended up as enthusiastic supporters.
The one aspect that there is in common with both campaigns, north and south - and I can only think of this one -is that both have a contempt for the Westminster elite. Hence I thought that Salmond's comments on a new wideranging constitutional settlement for England were interesting.
Or at least, it would have done had it still been intact. Unfortunately, it exploded earlier when I saw Alex Salmond had criticised a political party for running a campaign based on fear, insularity, negativity and dishonesty. I used to really admire Alex Salmond, but these days he is beyond parody. He's like Nigel Farage only even posher, more bigoted and less self-aware, which is saying quite something.
And by the way...weren't we promised that there wouldn't be more referendums on Scottish independence? Or did that only apply if the SNP got the right result?
Political nerd goldmine.
Why so virulent about Alex Salmond? Agree or disagree I have never heard him express a single anti-English sentiment and to compare him with Nigel Farage is just plain daft. Could it be you are still a teensy bit frightened of someone who against significant odds led a campaign which shook the British establsihment to its foundations.
A Scottish MP suggesting they'd vote on English matters [which are devolved] is unacceptable.
He failed in his campaign, incidentally. So what 'significant odds' did he beat?
Mr. Corporeal, up to you. But don't leave it until Christmas Eve and then spend the day itself fiddling with numbers.
I think the problem with Salmond is that Farage is doing exactly what he did. They are both basically complaining about outside powers having rule over their country, and how that is responsible for all the country's ills. In fact, practically every argument put forward by the SNP, bar the currency one, is one put forward by UKIP too - control of the borders, and the need to control services, and the inability to take part in major international bodies in their own right, etc. etc.
Moreover, their backers are all very unsavoury. Salmond cosies up to the likes of Souter, Trump and Murdoch, while Farage has Wheeler and the car insurance sales bloke whose name I can never remember. As for anti-English - I think you would find Alex Salmond's description of the British government as 'incompetent Lord Snootys' basically similar to Farage's accusation that the European Commission were a bunch of 'shady second-hand car salesmen from third-rate countries.' They are both fairly careful, in public at least, to lay off the countries/peoples concerned (some of their backers, e.g. Godfrey Bloom and Nicola Sturgeon, are less discreet).
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They look and sound very alike to me (not physically, of course, emotionally). The tragedy is that they can't see it.
And I would finally point out, as you would find out had you taken the trouble to Google my username, that I am actually Welsh rather than British. Hence why I used to admire Salmond, as a Celtic nationalist taking on the English hegemony, which I would point out has been far more unhelpful and indeed damaging to large parts of my country than it has ever been to yours. But I have no time for tedious, whining bullies with nil self-awareness.
I fear we have very different views on Alex Salmond.
However to turn to facts. The ONLY Scottish MPs who have generally not voted on English matters are SNP ones. Labour , LOWHI
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/08/24/article-0-1B726BF0000005DC-633_634x904.jpg
You need not convince me that Labour Scottish MPs will interfere in English matters - that's Labour's official policy.
Mr. G, just because I'm a paragon of virtue doesn't mean I'm not slyer than a weasel-king. Salmond promised to spend oil (worth well over $100 a barrel) on both current spending and to create a wealth fund, and that the 'millstone around Scotland's neck' [the pound] would be kept. It categorically would not, as all the major parties and the British electorate (outside of Scotland) was dead against it.
Salmond is a clever political operator. But he's also intent on fostering division and has a fantastical imagination better suited to the realm of fiction.
What I was going on to say before a was distracted by a phone call was that every Labour , Liberal and the one Conservative MP from Scotland ALWAYS vote on English business.
For my sins I am one of the Independent's few Scottish readers and therefore I actually read Salmond's recent interview. The two examples he gave of SNP votes on English issues were on 1) tuition fees which were imposed on England by the votes of Scottish Labour MPs with the SNP voting against. and 2) Foundation hospitals where again Scots Labour carried the day for Blair in 2003 with the SNP voting against.
I still think your views on Salmond seem born out of anxiety rather than logic. They don't do you much credit.
At least learn to speak English. As a Scotsman it is doubtless your first language, given that only about 30% of the current mass of Scotland is a native area for Gaelic (the rest being a mix of English - about 45% - Manx (10%) and Deeside Gaelic (the rest)). So it would really behove you to understand it.
Has it ever occurred to you that the reason people despise you and mock you is because you are so thoroughly unpleasant? You are rude, dishonest and have never engaged meaningfully with the arguments, preferring to throw around childish insults that demonstrate your intellectual and moral inferiority (and perhaps a lack of self-belief)? You sum up all that is far wrong with the modern SNP (and sad though I am to admit it, modern Plaid Cymru under Leanne Wood).
(continued)
As long as you blame others for your ills, rather than trying to sort them out yourself, you will continue to be a laughing-stock. As is all too painfully apparent while looking at the government of my unfortunate country, which refuses to sort things out that are eminently soluble, instead preferring to blame England and hope to reap some political benefit.
And I reconcile that with my earlier remark on Wales by pointing out that, historically, Wales has suffered a lot from the English refusal to allow it to be governed in the only language most of its people spoke. I don't think it was deliberate, but it kept Wales as an economic and social backwater for centuries, because anybody who could leave and make money could not go back. But that was then, and whatever historical reasons there may be for anti-English resentment, this is now. And the simple fact is Wales is helped enormously by being part of the UK. It allows money to be spent in our impoverished areas (some of which are comparable, in economic circumstances, to Greece). It allows our brightest young students the chance of a good education at some of the best universities in the world on very favourable terms (the English taxpayer subsidises lower fees). It gives us tourists who come to admire the mountains. And without all that, believe me, Wales would make Albania look like a paradise.
What I want to see is a government that will accept that and work with the opportunities it gives us. But there's no chance of that, and that's why I prefer for the moment to live in first Gloucestershire and now Staffordshire.
Who knows, maybe your grandkids will stay Europhile, but the bulk of the population won't. If the congestion of the South East increases at the rate of the last 20 years for the next 20 year, the complaints will just keep on rising. I remember a few years ago when people were arguing that economic struggle was driving opposition to immigration and the EU, but those issues remain just as salient even as the economy's status as the most important issue falls away.
http://www.newsweek.com/80-british-public-want-greens-included-tv-debate-293178
guten Appetit with the pheasant sounds just right for a winter evening.
Here in Warwickshire we've just finished home-made spaetzle with pork mushroom and cream
while herself has had pink lamb steaks with duchesse potatoes and a balsamic reduction.
No this is 'Carlotta Vance'
http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTczNjgxODQ0N15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwNjI3NjQ2._V1_SY317_CR0,0,214,317_AL_.jpg
I didn't refer to you at all or your origins. I will leave the personal stuff to you and Morris Dancer. It does neither of your any credit as it happens.
One difficulty you seem to have is that you seem to recycle and even perhaps believe nonsense as if it were fact. I used to work in renewables and for much of the last three years Salmond has been under assault by Trump in pretty extreme newspaper adverts for his Government's support for an offshore wind demonstrator off Aberdeen.
Salmond seemed totally unconcerned by the attacks which he shrugged off with humour and style. The point being your definition of "cosying up" just seems completely at odds with reality.
I do think your personal attacks on Salmond are based on his continuing potential to upset the establishment applecart.
As regards my views on Salmond: smugness = the arrogant insistence that keeping the pound (a millstone around Scotland's neck) was viable, deceit = indicating oil money would be spent on both a wealth fund and current spending.
Politicians are often criticised for personal characteristics. It isn't kind of vile and wicked sin, especially when the criticism is valid.
Personally, I think that if the debate is not solely between Cameron and Miliband (as the Prime Ministerial candidates) it should include as wide a range of views as possible. After all, isn't choice the essence of democracy?
How about this for a working rule for participation:
'Any party which is represented in the House of Commons and is fielding candidates in 80% or more of constituencies'
which I think would include five parties at the present time. (It obviously can't be all seats, as Northern Ireland and Buckingham are not included.)
That might lead to some really interesting debates. They might even be fun to watch...
The wording perhaps could've been tighter. The sentiment is not something I resile from.
http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Green-candidate-delivers-360-signatures-proposed/story-25744457-detail/story.html
MMC - tick.
Uses 'accounting tricks' to avoid UK tax - tick.
Could be a franchise - er, what's that...
On a point of detail, and to be fair to the solitary Tory, Mr Mundell, he did abstain on at least one of the student tuition fee votes, though I forget which one that was.
I am pretty new to this site so allow me one last comment for tonight.
I started a thread because I thought there was something of interest in Salmond's interview in the Times about a new English constitutional revolution. I was actually more interested in the thought than in the person delivering it. Not one of the three of you wanted to take that forward but instead wished to fling largely schoolboy insults at Salmond.
I read into that behaviour anxiety or insecurity on your part which is often, although not exclusively, a male thing. I suspect you attack Salmond in often ridiculous hyperbole because you fear him.
I hope that in my next foray on this site I will come across people who want to take on the argument and if not then at least have a bit of humour not a lot of bitterness.
Or maybe it's just that's how he is.
I am not a member of the establishment and I am baffled by the fact that you think I am opposed to him because he is 'upsetting their applecart'. I despise precisely because he has become part of the establishment while pretending otherwise. Not for any other reason.
And I have not 'recycled nonsense' - I admit to being an avid recycler of all my household rubbish, because as a good Cardi I despise waste, but there the accuracy of your comment ends. I note incidentally you can give no specific examples of that. I have pointed out obvious parallels between Farage and Salmond. The mere fact that I suspect they are uncomfortable and disappointing to both of us is no reason not to do so.
I would finally point out you were the one who made assumptions about my background and therefore made it 'personal'. I was merely putting you right with my response. If I went further out of I think pardonable irritation at the assumptions you had made, I apologise for upsetting you.
I know nothing about Morris Dancer's background. He can speak for himself. These are solely my views on Salmond. Should he change again, and become a fair-minded and intelligent champion of Scotland, I will be delighted.
One problem on this site, by the way, is that we don't have any Scottish Labour posters (and apparently didn't, even before the disaster of the independence referendum campaign). A real shame, especially as all we get are Scottish Tories saying how wonderful Mr Murphy is.
Salmond lost his referendum in Scotland and is now talking about one in England. The changes needed for England (in my view a Parliament, possibly with English votes for English laws in the interim period) are a matter for the English to decide.
As someone from another part of the UK, who wants to make Englishmen and Scotsmen foreigners to one another, and who is seeking election to the UK Parliament where he has indicated he may vote on English-only matters, Salmond's views on this are frankly unwelcome and a period of silence from him would be welcome.
I don't want the discussion about what happens in England to be coloured by the utterances of a man who does not live here, is not from here and wishes the UK to end. His very separatist desires prejudice his opinion and taint it beyond hope of objectivity, inclining it towards divisiveness.
I do actually feel rather sorry for you, although you doubtless don't believe me. I do hope one day you will be able to work for a great Scotland, rather than just hating people for disagreeing with you.
Who knows, maybe your grandkids will stay Europhile, but the bulk of the population won't. If the congestion of the South East increases at the rate of the last 20 years for the next 20 year, the complaints will just keep on rising. I remember a few years ago when people were arguing that economic struggle was driving opposition to immigration and the EU, but those issues remain just as salient even as the economy's status as the most important issue falls away.
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Actually, Socrates, they are both teachers so are complaining about the difficulties imposed upon them by the iniquitous Mr Gove.
We know he's, thankfully, gone, but the damage that he has done lives on.
For example, the elder doesn't yet know what the exam structure in her subject will be next year so cannot advise her students. Those students will be applying for University within a year or two!
I don't think that makes your other points less valid but it changes the context rather.
I've never heard either of them mention her! I rarely do either. Actually, IIRC, it was Sir Keith Joseph's fault!
And I would greatly prefer it if Salmond stayed north of the border.
The English constitutional settlement is an English matter, not a UK one. As the English had no say in Scotland's decision, so the Scottish should have no say in England's.
I did wonder wtf was he thinking especially considering some of his ex mp's have just done time.
The question of urgency is England's governance. Prolonged deliberation, regionalisation bullshit and the House of Lords are all unnecessary distractions muttered by those wishing obfuscation rather than clarity and delay rather than decisiveness.
Salmond does not want a sustainable UK, by definition. An English Parliament, with English votes for English laws in the meantime, could provide that stability.