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I am like a burglar and you should be too – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,126
edited September 29 in General
I am like a burglar and you should be too – politicalbetting.com

A would-be burglar in Rome was caught last month when he became absorbed in a book he found in the house he was attempting to rob. Most likely in different circumstances, 77% of Britons say they too have been so engrossed in a book that they lost of time…Many times: 45%Once… pic.twitter.com/fpjGFpWPmt

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    I am too engrossed in Bleak House to see if I am first or 20th.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    When you say you are absorbed in your book, is that your book on the football, your book on the F1 season or your book on the US elections?
  • Tim_in_RuislipTim_in_Ruislip Posts: 433
    edited September 3
    algarkirk said:

    I am too engrossed in Bleak House to see if I am first or 20th.

    You're second, I'm first.

    (depending on which order vanilla decides to implement, today)

    Edit: Third!

    Edit 2: 4th!

    Edit 3: 7th!
  • ydoethur said:

    When you say you are absorbed in your book, is that your book on the football, your book on the F1 season or your book on the US elections?

    The latest book I was absorbed by.


  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661
    edited September 3
    ctrl - alt - del
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,980
    We need a new law of nature on politicalbetting: the Letbyshed.

    People get so pissed after a certain time each evening they start posting baseless speculation about how she might be innocent.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,573
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    When you say you are absorbed in your book, is that your book on the football, your book on the F1 season or your book on the US elections?

    The latest book I was absorbed by.


    That's going to cause controversy. Lettuce prepare for a difficult thread.
    ...cos that's what's coming.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    algarkirk said:

    mercator said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/sep/03/i-am-evil-i-did-this-lucy-letbys-so-called-confessions-were-written-on-advice-of-counsellors

    Absolute and utter bombshell news. Except to people like me who were always saying that self accusations by the depressed are not to be taken at face value.

    Guardian still on this. It's going to run and run. It presents as revelation stuff about the origin of the Letby written material which, assuming the story is accurate, was in the personal knowledge of the defendant and all of which they were fully entitled to explain in their evidence.

    Material which could be self incriminating is put in evidence and is exactly what it is. The prosecution is not going to throw it away, it is highly relevant, and the defence is absolutely entitled to give their account of what it means, why it exists and why it isn't a confession.

    This of course was just one of a multiple set of threads of evidence. The grounds of appeal made no mention of how the judge or prosecution had handled the written material, there was no complaint.

    Nothing to see here.
    I don't get the hatred for this woman. As for the "it was all gone over in court" stuff, the legal system works to a closed set of sometimes arbitrary rules which I probably know more about than you do - not a boast, a sober reflection of the fact that I qualified as a solicitor in 1987. Just for instance, her defence team were obliged to conform exactly to her instructions (unless they thought she was effectively insane). We have no idea what those instructions were. Another thing I hope for your sake I know more about than you do, is very severe depression. You can end up taking some pretty odd positions and thinking some pretty odd things which turn out not to be true.

    Either engage with the underlying facts or don't, but just saying therjurysedinnit makes you look like the Milgram experiment. Or like the Life of Brian: OK but apart from {identifiable cases number 1 ... 9999 and that's before we get on to the post office} when has there ever been a miscarriage of justice? NEVER! Oh and Evans and the Birmingham six and ...

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,573
    algarkirk said:

    I am too engrossed in Bleak House to see if I am first or 20th.

    Bleak House absolutely nails lawyers.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    When you say you are absorbed in your book, is that your book on the football, your book on the F1 season or your book on the US elections?

    The latest book I was absorbed by.


    That's going to cause controversy. Lettuce prepare for a difficult thread.
    It was either a thread on this or a thread on one of Starmer's popular policies.

    Do you support or oppose the UK suspending some arms exports to Israel?

    Strongly support: 27%
    Tend to support: 22%
    Tend to oppose: 13%
    Strongly oppose: 13%


    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1831007747648721305

    or

    Do you support or oppose Ofsted one or two-word ratings being removed and replaced with a more detailed report?

    Strongly support: 34%
    Tend to support: 34%
    Tend to oppose: 7%
    Strongly oppose: 3%


    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1830660536826241496

    Who was that melt accusing of Starmer pandering to the unions over OFSTED?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,423

    We need a new law of nature on politicalbetting: the Letbyshed.

    People get so pissed after a certain time each evening they start posting baseless speculation about how she might be innocent.

    It is 9pm on a Tuesday. Fair.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    mercator said:

    algarkirk said:

    mercator said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/sep/03/i-am-evil-i-did-this-lucy-letbys-so-called-confessions-were-written-on-advice-of-counsellors

    Absolute and utter bombshell news. Except to people like me who were always saying that self accusations by the depressed are not to be taken at face value.

    Guardian still on this. It's going to run and run. It presents as revelation stuff about the origin of the Letby written material which, assuming the story is accurate, was in the personal knowledge of the defendant and all of which they were fully entitled to explain in their evidence.

    Material which could be self incriminating is put in evidence and is exactly what it is. The prosecution is not going to throw it away, it is highly relevant, and the defence is absolutely entitled to give their account of what it means, why it exists and why it isn't a confession.

    This of course was just one of a multiple set of threads of evidence. The grounds of appeal made no mention of how the judge or prosecution had handled the written material, there was no complaint.

    Nothing to see here.
    I don't get the hatred for this woman. As for the "it was all gone over in court" stuff, the legal system works to a closed set of sometimes arbitrary rules which I probably know more about than you do - not a boast, a sober reflection of the fact that I qualified as a solicitor in 1987. Just for instance, her defence team were obliged to conform exactly to her instructions (unless they thought she was effectively insane). We have no idea what those instructions were. Another thing I hope for your sake I know more about than you do, is very severe depression. You can end up taking some pretty odd positions and thinking some pretty odd things which turn out not to be true.

    Either engage with the underlying facts or don't, but just saying therjurysedinnit makes you look like the Milgram experiment. Or like the Life of Brian: OK but apart from {identifiable cases number 1 ... 9999 and that's before we get on to the post office} when has there ever been a miscarriage of justice? NEVER! Oh and Evans and the Birmingham six and ...

    You don't get the hatred?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    We need a new law of nature on politicalbetting: the Letbyshed.

    People get so pissed after a certain time each evening they start posting baseless speculation about how she might be innocent.

    I am a teetotaller, a qualified lawyer and on statistical grounds almost certainly more intelligent than you are. You seem to get so pissed after a certain time each evening that the injustice of CR jr being deprived of having a shit time at overpriceddotheboyshall plc looms larger in your imagination than the holodomor. We all have our priorities.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,573
    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
  • mercator said:

    We need a new law of nature on politicalbetting: the Letbyshed.

    People get so pissed after a certain time each evening they start posting baseless speculation about how she might be innocent.

    I am a teetotaller, a qualified lawyer and on statistical grounds almost certainly more intelligent than you are. You seem to get so pissed after a certain time each evening that the injustice of CR jr being deprived of having a shit time at overpriceddotheboyshall plc looms larger in your imagination than the holodomor. We all have our priorities.
    Anyone who boasts "I'm more intelligent than you" almost certainly is not the smartest person in the room.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    mercator said:

    algarkirk said:

    mercator said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/sep/03/i-am-evil-i-did-this-lucy-letbys-so-called-confessions-were-written-on-advice-of-counsellors

    Absolute and utter bombshell news. Except to people like me who were always saying that self accusations by the depressed are not to be taken at face value.

    Guardian still on this. It's going to run and run. It presents as revelation stuff about the origin of the Letby written material which, assuming the story is accurate, was in the personal knowledge of the defendant and all of which they were fully entitled to explain in their evidence.

    Material which could be self incriminating is put in evidence and is exactly what it is. The prosecution is not going to throw it away, it is highly relevant, and the defence is absolutely entitled to give their account of what it means, why it exists and why it isn't a confession.

    This of course was just one of a multiple set of threads of evidence. The grounds of appeal made no mention of how the judge or prosecution had handled the written material, there was no complaint.

    Nothing to see here.
    I don't get the hatred for this woman. As for the "it was all gone over in court" stuff, the legal system works to a closed set of sometimes arbitrary rules which I probably know more about than you do - not a boast, a sober reflection of the fact that I qualified as a solicitor in 1987. Just for instance, her defence team were obliged to conform exactly to her instructions (unless they thought she was effectively insane). We have no idea what those instructions were. Another thing I hope for your sake I know more about than you do, is very severe depression. You can end up taking some pretty odd positions and thinking some pretty odd things which turn out not to be true.

    Either engage with the underlying facts or don't, but just saying therjurysedinnit makes you look like the Milgram experiment. Or like the Life of Brian: OK but apart from {identifiable cases number 1 ... 9999 and that's before we get on to the post office} when has there ever been a miscarriage of justice? NEVER! Oh and Evans and the Birmingham six and ...

    You don't get the hatred?
    "Circular argument" mean anything to you?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    When you say you are absorbed in your book, is that your book on the football, your book on the F1 season or your book on the US elections?

    The latest book I was absorbed by.


    That's going to cause controversy. Lettuce prepare for a difficult thread.
    ...cos that's what's coming.
    Just romaine from one subject to another.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    When you say you are absorbed in your book, is that your book on the football, your book on the F1 season or your book on the US elections?

    The latest book I was absorbed by.


    That's going to cause controversy. Lettuce prepare for a difficult thread.
    ...cos that's what's coming.
    Just romaine from one subject to another.
    This thread has already struck an iceberg.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,239
    FPT:
    algarkirk said:

    mercator said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/sep/03/i-am-evil-i-did-this-lucy-letbys-so-called-confessions-were-written-on-advice-of-counsellors

    Absolute and utter bombshell news. Except to people like me who were always saying that self accusations by the depressed are not to be taken at face value.

    Guardian still on this. It's going to run and run. It presents as revelation stuff about the origin of the Letby written material which, assuming the story is accurate, was in the personal knowledge of the defendant and all of which they were fully entitled to explain in their evidence.

    Material which could be self incriminating is put in evidence and is exactly what it is. The prosecution is not going to throw it away, it is highly relevant, and the defence is absolutely entitled to give their account of what it means, why it exists and why it isn't a confession.

    This of course was just one of a multiple set of threads of evidence. The grounds of appeal made no mention of how the judge or prosecution had handled the written material, there was no complaint.

    Nothing to see here.
    I think the obvious question, again, is: if this was the case why didn’t her defence call her psychologist / counsellor as a witness so that this claim of hers could be given a stronger footing than ”the defendant said so” ?

    If you have a piece of paper on which the defendant has written “I am evil” it seems as if you should move heaven & earth to convince the jury otherwise. Why didn’t her defence call any witnesses to support her claim?

    Still, for me, the convincing evidence is the insulin - I know that the test was supposedly ”not of forensic quality” but if you want to void the prosecution story you need some explanation for how those babies ended up with so much insulin in their bloodstream. Either it was someone else, or an error, or else the test was flawed in some fundamental way that could be fooled by other drugs or infant metabolism, but you do, I think, need to provide plausible evidence for at least one of those options, otherwise the jury is going to (reasonably) conclude that Letby did it.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    edited September 3

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    no idea where welcome from I typed coming off uc....not sure how that morphed into welcome
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    mercator said:

    We need a new law of nature on politicalbetting: the Letbyshed.

    People get so pissed after a certain time each evening they start posting baseless speculation about how she might be innocent.

    I am a teetotaller, a qualified lawyer and on statistical grounds almost certainly more intelligent than you are. You seem to get so pissed after a certain time each evening that the injustice of CR jr being deprived of having a shit time at overpriceddotheboyshall plc looms larger in your imagination than the holodomor. We all have our priorities.
    Anyone who boasts "I'm more intelligent than you" almost certainly is not the smartest person in the room.
    Yes. I wasn't boasting though was I, I was rebutting an insult? Bit different.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,980
    I am satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt that Lucy Letby callously and brutally murdered seven babies with clear and damning evidence.

    For those still in doubt the judge's sentencing remarks are available to read here which, whilst harrowing, are instructive:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/LETBY-Sentencing-Remarks.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiojsKux6eIAxWdT0EAHaTOHNoQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2cWjtxELv8K5JsFc6PURS-
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    edited September 3

    algarkirk said:

    I am too engrossed in Bleak House to see if I am first or 20th.

    Bleak House absolutely nails lawyers.
    Brilliant names too: Tulkinghorn, Vholes.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,573
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    no idea where welcome from I typed coming off uc....not sure how that morphed into welcome
    Lol, autocorrupt! Welcome is not a word normally associated with UC.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,423
    mercator said:

    We need a new law of nature on politicalbetting: the Letbyshed.

    People get so pissed after a certain time each evening they start posting baseless speculation about how she might be innocent.

    I am a teetotaller, a qualified lawyer and on statistical grounds almost certainly more intelligent than you are. You seem to get so pissed after a certain time each evening that the injustice of CR jr being deprived of having a shit time at overpriceddotheboyshall plc looms larger in your imagination than the holodomor. We all have our priorities.
    You weren't Letby's lawyer, were you?

    I suddenly have doubts about the conviction too...
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    @RochdalePioneers one for you as a tesla enthusiast

    https://www.techdirt.com/2024/09/03/cops-are-starting-to-tow-away-teslas-to-secure-recordings-captured-by-the-cars-cameras/

    Starmer seems quite keen on digital surveillance soon so I expect it here in a while
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    Eabhal said:

    mercator said:

    We need a new law of nature on politicalbetting: the Letbyshed.

    People get so pissed after a certain time each evening they start posting baseless speculation about how she might be innocent.

    I am a teetotaller, a qualified lawyer and on statistical grounds almost certainly more intelligent than you are. You seem to get so pissed after a certain time each evening that the injustice of CR jr being deprived of having a shit time at overpriceddotheboyshall plc looms larger in your imagination than the holodomor. We all have our priorities.
    You weren't Letby's lawyer, were you?

    I suddenly have doubts about the conviction too...
    You should try stand up.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,874
    Oh shit, said @TSE. I was supposed to post the new thread four hours ago. Well, only one more chapter to discover how Truss’s premiership ended. PB will just have to wait.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    When you say you are absorbed in your book, is that your book on the football, your book on the F1 season or your book on the US elections?

    The latest book I was absorbed by.


    That's going to cause controversy. Lettuce prepare for a difficult thread.
    ...cos that's what's coming.
    Just romaine from one subject to another.
    This thread has already struck an iceberg.
    Just mentioning Truss is a Titanic error.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    While I accept the Seldon book on Truss is going to get plenty of attention, I'm more interested in Lord Brady's book "Kingmaker". I saw an excellent interview on one of the news channels.

    Given he told May, Johnson and Truss their time was up and had to deal with the sudden resignation of Cameron, it's been a busy time since he was elected as, I believe, the youngest Conservative in the 1997 intake.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    mercator said:

    Eabhal said:

    mercator said:

    We need a new law of nature on politicalbetting: the Letbyshed.

    People get so pissed after a certain time each evening they start posting baseless speculation about how she might be innocent.

    I am a teetotaller, a qualified lawyer and on statistical grounds almost certainly more intelligent than you are. You seem to get so pissed after a certain time each evening that the injustice of CR jr being deprived of having a shit time at overpriceddotheboyshall plc looms larger in your imagination than the holodomor. We all have our priorities.
    You weren't Letby's lawyer, were you?

    I suddenly have doubts about the conviction too...
    You should try stand up.
    Is that what the judge said? And if so, to whom?
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    I am satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt that Lucy Letby callously and brutally murdered seven babies with clear and damning evidence.

    For those still in doubt the judge's sentencing remarks are available to read here which, whilst harrowing, are instructive:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/LETBY-Sentencing-Remarks.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiojsKux6eIAxWdT0EAHaTOHNoQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2cWjtxELv8K5JsFc6PURS-

    A judge making sentencing remarks is obliged to assume guilt. So you are saying, if we treat X as an axiom it follows that X. Therefore X.
  • stodge said:

    While I accept the Seldon book on Truss is going to get plenty of attention, I'm more interested in Lord Brady's book "Kingmaker". I saw an excellent interview on one of the news channels.

    Given he told May, Johnson and Truss their time was up and had to deal with the sudden resignation of Cameron, it's been a busy time since he was elected as, I believe, the youngest Conservative in the 1997 intake.

    It's on my list, released end of the month.
  • Of course Boris also got engrossed in a book (on Shakespeare) when he had work to do.

    Oh sorry, you said a good book...

    (It still hasn't seen the light of day, has it?)
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,760

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
  • I am satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt that Lucy Letby callously and brutally murdered seven babies with clear and damning evidence.

    For those still in doubt the judge's sentencing remarks are available to read here which, whilst harrowing, are instructive:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/LETBY-Sentencing-Remarks.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiojsKux6eIAxWdT0EAHaTOHNoQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2cWjtxELv8K5JsFc6PURS-

    The sentencing remarks of Sally Clark were presumably also equally harrowing.

    That's the problem when there's a miscarriage of justice, the sentencing remarks follow through on the miscarriage.

    Which is not to say that this must be a miscarriage, but to deny it could be based on sentencing remarks is absurd - if we took all sentencing remarks as gospel then no convictions would ever be overturned.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Because I suspect the exchequer loses out a lot more by people not working more than 16 hours a week because of the cutoff than they lose by a 1% doing salary sacrifice etc to keep themselves under the cliff edge by the time you figure in the uc they will still be claiming rather than paying tax
  • Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not as much as other cliff edges such as those on UC face does though.

    All such cliff edges should be abolished, including the 100k one but the 100k one is the least important of the cliff edges to address.

    Some people act as if only the 100k one matters. It does matter, but others do too.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,980
    mercator said:

    I am satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt that Lucy Letby callously and brutally murdered seven babies with clear and damning evidence.

    For those still in doubt the judge's sentencing remarks are available to read here which, whilst harrowing, are instructive:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/LETBY-Sentencing-Remarks.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiojsKux6eIAxWdT0EAHaTOHNoQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2cWjtxELv8K5JsFc6PURS-

    A judge making sentencing remarks is obliged to assume guilt. So you are saying, if we treat X as an axiom it follows that X. Therefore X.
    And so we encounter the pointlessness of debating with a conspiracy theorist, ladies and gentlemen.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,573

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,980

    I am satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt that Lucy Letby callously and brutally murdered seven babies with clear and damning evidence.

    For those still in doubt the judge's sentencing remarks are available to read here which, whilst harrowing, are instructive:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/LETBY-Sentencing-Remarks.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiojsKux6eIAxWdT0EAHaTOHNoQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2cWjtxELv8K5JsFc6PURS-

    The sentencing remarks of Sally Clark were presumably also equally harrowing.

    That's the problem when there's a miscarriage of justice, the sentencing remarks follow through on the miscarriage.

    Which is not to say that this must be a miscarriage, but to deny it could be based on sentencing remarks is absurd - if we took all sentencing remarks as gospel then no convictions would ever be overturned.
    Read them - the evidence cited is very clear.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661
    edited September 3

    I am satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt that Lucy Letby callously and brutally murdered seven babies with clear and damning evidence.

    For those still in doubt the judge's sentencing remarks are available to read here which, whilst harrowing, are instructive:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/LETBY-Sentencing-Remarks.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiojsKux6eIAxWdT0EAHaTOHNoQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2cWjtxELv8K5JsFc6PURS-

    The sentencing remarks of Sally Clark were presumably also equally harrowing.

    That's the problem when there's a miscarriage of justice, the sentencing remarks follow through on the miscarriage.

    Which is not to say that this must be a miscarriage, but to deny it could be based on sentencing remarks is absurd - if we took all sentencing remarks as gospel then no convictions would ever be overturned.
    "if we took all sentencing remarks as gospel" we'd be idiots. 'Gospel' means 'good news'. Sentencing by a judge is normally bad news.

  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    mercator said:

    mercator said:

    algarkirk said:

    mercator said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/sep/03/i-am-evil-i-did-this-lucy-letbys-so-called-confessions-were-written-on-advice-of-counsellors

    Absolute and utter bombshell news. Except to people like me who were always saying that self accusations by the depressed are not to be taken at face value.

    Guardian still on this. It's going to run and run. It presents as revelation stuff about the origin of the Letby written material which, assuming the story is accurate, was in the personal knowledge of the defendant and all of which they were fully entitled to explain in their evidence.

    Material which could be self incriminating is put in evidence and is exactly what it is. The prosecution is not going to throw it away, it is highly relevant, and the defence is absolutely entitled to give their account of what it means, why it exists and why it isn't a confession.

    This of course was just one of a multiple set of threads of evidence. The grounds of appeal made no mention of how the judge or prosecution had handled the written material, there was no complaint.

    Nothing to see here.
    I don't get the hatred for this woman. As for the "it was all gone over in court" stuff, the legal system works to a closed set of sometimes arbitrary rules which I probably know more about than you do - not a boast, a sober reflection of the fact that I qualified as a solicitor in 1987. Just for instance, her defence team were obliged to conform exactly to her instructions (unless they thought she was effectively insane). We have no idea what those instructions were. Another thing I hope for your sake I know more about than you do, is very severe depression. You can end up taking some pretty odd positions and thinking some pretty odd things which turn out not to be true.

    Either engage with the underlying facts or don't, but just saying therjurysedinnit makes you look like the Milgram experiment. Or like the Life of Brian: OK but apart from {identifiable cases number 1 ... 9999 and that's before we get on to the post office} when has there ever been a miscarriage of justice? NEVER! Oh and Evans and the Birmingham six and ...

    You don't get the hatred?
    "Circular argument" mean anything to you?
    Yes, your argument was a bit circular: it's wrong to question the innocence of Lucy Letby, because those who aren't guilty should always be treated with compassion.
  • I am satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt that Lucy Letby callously and brutally murdered seven babies with clear and damning evidence.

    For those still in doubt the judge's sentencing remarks are available to read here which, whilst harrowing, are instructive:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/LETBY-Sentencing-Remarks.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiojsKux6eIAxWdT0EAHaTOHNoQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2cWjtxELv8K5JsFc6PURS-

    The sentencing remarks of Sally Clark were presumably also equally harrowing.

    That's the problem when there's a miscarriage of justice, the sentencing remarks follow through on the miscarriage.

    Which is not to say that this must be a miscarriage, but to deny it could be based on sentencing remarks is absurd - if we took all sentencing remarks as gospel then no convictions would ever be overturned.
    Read them - the evidence cited is very clear.
    So was this: http://www.homepage-link.to/JUSTICE/Judgements/Clark/index1.html

    It was wrong though.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800

    stodge said:

    While I accept the Seldon book on Truss is going to get plenty of attention, I'm more interested in Lord Brady's book "Kingmaker". I saw an excellent interview on one of the news channels.

    Given he told May, Johnson and Truss their time was up and had to deal with the sudden resignation of Cameron, it's been a busy time since he was elected as, I believe, the youngest Conservative in the 1997 intake.

    It's on my list, released end of the month.
    September 26th, just before the Party Conference, would you adam and eve it?
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,633

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,573

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
  • Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    That would still make it considerably undertaxed versus PAYE income.
  • geoffw said:

    I am satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt that Lucy Letby callously and brutally murdered seven babies with clear and damning evidence.

    For those still in doubt the judge's sentencing remarks are available to read here which, whilst harrowing, are instructive:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/LETBY-Sentencing-Remarks.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiojsKux6eIAxWdT0EAHaTOHNoQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2cWjtxELv8K5JsFc6PURS-

    The sentencing remarks of Sally Clark were presumably also equally harrowing.

    That's the problem when there's a miscarriage of justice, the sentencing remarks follow through on the miscarriage.

    Which is not to say that this must be a miscarriage, but to deny it could be based on sentencing remarks is absurd - if we took all sentencing remarks as gospel then no convictions would ever be overturned.
    "if we took all sentencing remarks as gospel" we'd be idiots. 'Gospel' means 'good news'. Sentencing by a judge is normally bad news.

    To me a killer facing sentencing is good news. 🤷‍♂️

    Its bad news that someone was killed, but its good news that justice has been served.

    However if its a miscarriage of justice then its doubly bad news as it means an innocent person was sentenced and potentially the real culprit (unless there was none) has not been.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    no idea where welcome from I typed coming off uc....not sure how that morphed into welcome
    That's bizarre. (agree your sentiment btw)

    On topic: Yes I've sometimes got 'lost' in a book. Two examples. Keith Richards autobiography essentially obliterated one Easter weekend. The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle, a longish novel by Murakami, I once read in one massive go lying in a hotel room in Malaysia, could hardly bear to break off to go to the bathroom.

    This no longer happens. My capacity for sustained intense focus is not what it was.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    mercator said:

    I am satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt that Lucy Letby callously and brutally murdered seven babies with clear and damning evidence.

    For those still in doubt the judge's sentencing remarks are available to read here which, whilst harrowing, are instructive:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/LETBY-Sentencing-Remarks.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiojsKux6eIAxWdT0EAHaTOHNoQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2cWjtxELv8K5JsFc6PURS-

    A judge making sentencing remarks is obliged to assume guilt. So you are saying, if we treat X as an axiom it follows that X. Therefore X.
    And so we encounter the pointlessness of debating with a conspiracy theorist, ladies and gentlemen.
    You started this by implying that I was drunk, I think? If you don't understand the point of the post you are replying to, you yourself are either drunk or stupid.

    I'm sorry you can't afford schools for your children though. I can.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,751
    People are so in thrall to authority it is amazing that they venture to tie their shoelaces without instruction from a higher power.

    How many miscarriages of justice do we need before people are naturally cautious about disputed verdicts. Especially when there is a possible alternative set of events and no actual evidence.

    No one was lining up to say are you sure Fred West did it.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    mercator said:

    I am satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt that Lucy Letby callously and brutally murdered seven babies with clear and damning evidence.

    For those still in doubt the judge's sentencing remarks are available to read here which, whilst harrowing, are instructive:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/LETBY-Sentencing-Remarks.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiojsKux6eIAxWdT0EAHaTOHNoQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2cWjtxELv8K5JsFc6PURS-

    A judge making sentencing remarks is obliged to assume guilt. So you are saying, if we treat X as an axiom it follows that X. Therefore X.
    Ah, got it. I think I know who you are. Welcome back.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    no idea where welcome from I typed coming off uc....not sure how that morphed into welcome
    That's bizarre. (agree your sentiment btw)

    On topic: Yes I've sometimes got 'lost' in a book. Two examples. Keith Richards autobiography essentially obliterated one Easter weekend. The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle, a longish novel by Murakami, I once read in one massive go lying in a hotel room in Malaysia, could hardly bear to break off to go to the bathroom.

    This no longer happens. My capacity for sustained intense focus is not what it was.
    Hopefully not lost for good? I had a few years of reading very few books, but started reading more regularly about a year ago. There have been several books in the last year that have held my attention even more firmly than a major argument on PB.com would do.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,780

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,458

    ydoethur said:

    When you say you are absorbed in your book, is that your book on the football, your book on the F1 season or your book on the US elections?

    The latest book I was absorbed by.


    TRUSS

    Agree that sinking into a good book is one of life’s great pleasures. I make no comment on that particular title though!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,751
    Meanwhile talking about books I am currently rereading Mad Mobs and Englishmen, an analysis of the 2011 riots.

    I hope the authors, Cliff Stott and Steve Reicher, do the same thing for the Stockport riots.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    My experience as a renter....increase the costs to landlords by 5% and the rent will increase by more than 5% because hey I am increasing the rent anyway so I might as well get an extra few percent. If they object I can get it from a new tenant and probably add another couple of percent into the bargain
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,573
    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    no idea where welcome from I typed coming off uc....not sure how that morphed into welcome
    That's bizarre. (agree your sentiment btw)

    On topic: Yes I've sometimes got 'lost' in a book. Two examples. Keith Richards autobiography essentially obliterated one Easter weekend. The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle, a longish novel by Murakami, I once read in one massive go lying in a hotel room in Malaysia, could hardly bear to break off to go to the bathroom.

    This no longer happens. My capacity for sustained intense focus is not what it was.
    Nor is mi
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,573
    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Good point. I'd freeze rents too. Allow them to increase by CPI each year.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Good point. I'd freeze rents too. Allow them to increase by CPI each year.
    Then welcome to less homes to rent and those that are left becoming more neglected that is what happened last time we had rent controls
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,573
    Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Good point. I'd freeze rents too. Allow them to increase by CPI each year.
    Then welcome to less homes to rent and those that are left becoming more neglected that is what happened last time we had rent controls
    Where do the current homes to rent go? Are the BTL owners going to demolish them in protest?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Landlords are already charging as much rent as they can get in the market. The rents charged on a property are not set by the costs a landlord faces, but by the demand for rental property and the financial capacity of potential renters to pay.

    So taxing rental income will not see rents rise.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,473
    edited September 3
    Phil said:

    FPT:

    algarkirk said:

    mercator said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/sep/03/i-am-evil-i-did-this-lucy-letbys-so-called-confessions-were-written-on-advice-of-counsellors

    Absolute and utter bombshell news. Except to people like me who were always saying that self accusations by the depressed are not to be taken at face value.

    Guardian still on this. It's going to run and run. It presents as revelation stuff about the origin of the Letby written material which, assuming the story is accurate, was in the personal knowledge of the defendant and all of which they were fully entitled to explain in their evidence.

    Material which could be self incriminating is put in evidence and is exactly what it is. The prosecution is not going to throw it away, it is highly relevant, and the defence is absolutely entitled to give their account of what it means, why it exists and why it isn't a confession.

    This of course was just one of a multiple set of threads of evidence. The grounds of appeal made no mention of how the judge or prosecution had handled the written material, there was no complaint.

    Nothing to see here.
    I think the obvious question, again, is: if this was the case why didn’t her defence call her psychologist / counsellor as a witness so that this claim of hers could be given a stronger footing than ”the defendant said so” ?

    If you have a piece of paper on which the defendant has written “I am evil” it seems as if you should move heaven & earth to convince the jury otherwise. Why didn’t her defence call any witnesses to support her claim?

    Still, for me, the convincing evidence is the insulin - I know that the test was supposedly ”not of forensic quality” but if you want to void the prosecution story you need some explanation for how those babies ended up with so much insulin in their bloodstream. Either it was someone else, or an error, or else the test was flawed in some fundamental way that could be fooled by other drugs or infant metabolism, but you do, I think, need to provide plausible evidence for at least one of those options, otherwise the jury is going to (reasonably) conclude that Letby did it.
    I don't want to spend another evening debating this but:

    1) Reflective notes written by defendents have been used in trials before, for example the Bawa-Garba case of manslaughter.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20180205184552/http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/your-practice/practice-topics/legal/revealed-how-reflections-were-used-in-the-bawa-garba-case/20036090.article

    2) if Letby was so severely depressed as to be unfit to plead or direct her case that would have been obvious during such a long trial, and psychological evaluation is a fairly routine assessment of suspected serial killers.
  • stodge said:

    stodge said:

    While I accept the Seldon book on Truss is going to get plenty of attention, I'm more interested in Lord Brady's book "Kingmaker". I saw an excellent interview on one of the news channels.

    Given he told May, Johnson and Truss their time was up and had to deal with the sudden resignation of Cameron, it's been a busy time since he was elected as, I believe, the youngest Conservative in the 1997 intake.

    It's on my list, released end of the month.
    September 26th, just before the Party Conference, would you adam and eve it?
    And BoJo's book is on October 10th, just as the leadership election goes to the country.

    Those publishers know what they are about...
  • Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Good point. I'd freeze rents too. Allow them to increase by CPI each year.
    Then welcome to less homes to rent and those that are left becoming more neglected that is what happened last time we had rent controls
    If you want affordable rents then the solution is to build more houses.

    If there were enough houses then would-be landlords should face a choice of letting out a home for a lower rent, or having no tenant and paying all bills on the home themselves with no income coming in.

    In a free market rents should be considerably cheaper than a mortgage. If a tenant can afford to pay the landlord's mortgage they should be able to pay their own and cut out the middle man.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,573

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    While I accept the Seldon book on Truss is going to get plenty of attention, I'm more interested in Lord Brady's book "Kingmaker". I saw an excellent interview on one of the news channels.

    Given he told May, Johnson and Truss their time was up and had to deal with the sudden resignation of Cameron, it's been a busy time since he was elected as, I believe, the youngest Conservative in the 1997 intake.

    It's on my list, released end of the month.
    September 26th, just before the Party Conference, would you adam and eve it?
    And BoJo's book is on October 10th, just as the leadership election goes to the country.

    Those publishers know what they are about...
    Let's hope he's started writing it then.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Good point. I'd freeze rents too. Allow them to increase by CPI each year.
    Then welcome to less homes to rent and those that are left becoming more neglected that is what happened last time we had rent controls
    Where do the current homes to rent go? Are the BTL owners going to demolish them in protest?
    If there were a free market in houses then rent controls would see fewer homes available to rent as would-be landlords would be less likely to get a new house built to let it out if there were rent controls.

    However since there is already not a free market and the supply of houses is tightly constrained by our broken planning system, that argument is moot.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,473
    TOPPING said:

    People are so in thrall to authority it is amazing that they venture to tie their shoelaces without instruction from a higher power.

    How many miscarriages of justice do we need before people are naturally cautious about disputed verdicts. Especially when there is a possible alternative set of events and no actual evidence.

    No one was lining up to say are you sure Fred West did it.

    But there was actual evidence. Loads of it, not just duty rosters.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,751
    Foxy said:

    Phil said:

    FPT:

    algarkirk said:

    mercator said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/sep/03/i-am-evil-i-did-this-lucy-letbys-so-called-confessions-were-written-on-advice-of-counsellors

    Absolute and utter bombshell news. Except to people like me who were always saying that self accusations by the depressed are not to be taken at face value.

    Guardian still on this. It's going to run and run. It presents as revelation stuff about the origin of the Letby written material which, assuming the story is accurate, was in the personal knowledge of the defendant and all of which they were fully entitled to explain in their evidence.

    Material which could be self incriminating is put in evidence and is exactly what it is. The prosecution is not going to throw it away, it is highly relevant, and the defence is absolutely entitled to give their account of what it means, why it exists and why it isn't a confession.

    This of course was just one of a multiple set of threads of evidence. The grounds of appeal made no mention of how the judge or prosecution had handled the written material, there was no complaint.

    Nothing to see here.
    I think the obvious question, again, is: if this was the case why didn’t her defence call her psychologist / counsellor as a witness so that this claim of hers could be given a stronger footing than ”the defendant said so” ?

    If you have a piece of paper on which the defendant has written “I am evil” it seems as if you should move heaven & earth to convince the jury otherwise. Why didn’t her defence call any witnesses to support her claim?

    Still, for me, the convincing evidence is the insulin - I know that the test was supposedly ”not of forensic quality” but if you want to void the prosecution story you need some explanation for how those babies ended up with so much insulin in their bloodstream. Either it was someone else, or an error, or else the test was flawed in some fundamental way that could be fooled by other drugs or infant metabolism, but you do, I think, need to provide plausible evidence for at least one of those options, otherwise the jury is going to (reasonably) conclude that Letby did it.
    I don't want to spend another evening debating this but:

    1) Reflective notes written by defendents have been used in trials before, for example the Bawa-Garba case of manslaughter.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20180205184552/http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/your-practice/practice-topics/legal/revealed-how-reflections-were-used-in-the-bawa-garba-case/20036090.article

    2) if Letby was so severely depressed as to be unfit to plead or direct her case that would have been obvious during such a long trial, and psychological evaluation is a fairly routine assessment of suspected serial killers.
    It's much better for the NHS if bad things are ascribed to lone wolves rather than systemic failures.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,573

    Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Good point. I'd freeze rents too. Allow them to increase by CPI each year.
    Then welcome to less homes to rent and those that are left becoming more neglected that is what happened last time we had rent controls
    If you want affordable rents then the solution is to build more houses.

    If there were enough houses then would-be landlords should face a choice of letting out a home for a lower rent, or having no tenant and paying all bills on the home themselves with no income coming in.

    In a free market rents should be considerably cheaper than a mortgage. If a tenant can afford to pay the landlord's mortgage they should be able to pay their own and cut out the middle man.
    Welcome to Bartopia.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    While I accept the Seldon book on Truss is going to get plenty of attention, I'm more interested in Lord Brady's book "Kingmaker". I saw an excellent interview on one of the news channels.

    Given he told May, Johnson and Truss their time was up and had to deal with the sudden resignation of Cameron, it's been a busy time since he was elected as, I believe, the youngest Conservative in the 1997 intake.

    It's on my list, released end of the month.
    September 26th, just before the Party Conference, would you adam and eve it?
    And BoJo's book is on October 10th, just as the leadership election goes to the country.

    Those publishers know what they are about...
    Let's hope he's started writing it then.
    Not 'it' but 'them', surely two versions are the least we expect

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,458

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    no idea where welcome from I typed coming off uc....not sure how that morphed into welcome
    That's bizarre. (agree your sentiment btw)

    On topic: Yes I've sometimes got 'lost' in a book. Two examples. Keith Richards autobiography essentially obliterated one Easter weekend. The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle, a longish novel by Murakami, I once read in one massive go lying in a hotel room in Malaysia, could hardly bear to break off to go to the bathroom.

    This no longer happens. My capacity for sustained intense focus is not what it was.
    Hopefully not lost for good? I had a few years of reading very few books, but started reading more regularly about a year ago. There have been several books in the last year that have held my attention even more firmly than a major argument on PB.com would do.
    That’s quite the accolade. Are you sure?
  • Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Good point. I'd freeze rents too. Allow them to increase by CPI each year.
    Then welcome to less homes to rent and those that are left becoming more neglected that is what happened last time we had rent controls
    If you want affordable rents then the solution is to build more houses.

    If there were enough houses then would-be landlords should face a choice of letting out a home for a lower rent, or having no tenant and paying all bills on the home themselves with no income coming in.

    In a free market rents should be considerably cheaper than a mortgage. If a tenant can afford to pay the landlord's mortgage they should be able to pay their own and cut out the middle man.
    Welcome to Bartopia.
    There's countries out there that have more affordable housing than we do, because they don't have the constraints on building houses that we do.

    Its not rocket science, its fundamental economics. Constrain supply and prices go up.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited September 3

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    no idea where welcome from I typed coming off uc....not sure how that morphed into welcome
    That's bizarre. (agree your sentiment btw)

    On topic: Yes I've sometimes got 'lost' in a book. Two examples. Keith Richards autobiography essentially obliterated one Easter weekend. The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle, a longish novel by Murakami, I once read in one massive go lying in a hotel room in Malaysia, could hardly bear to break off to go to the bathroom.

    This no longer happens. My capacity for sustained intense focus is not what it was.
    Hopefully not lost for good? I had a few years of reading very few books, but started reading more regularly about a year ago. There have been several books in the last year that have held my attention even more firmly than a major argument on PB.com would do.
    Good to hear. Reading has to beat arguing on here.

    Me? Yes I think my ability/desire to crunch quickly through books is gone for good. But that's ok. I still do it, it just takes me longer. Same with most things actually. Managed decline. It's underrated in life as well as in modern British politics.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    edited September 3

    Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Good point. I'd freeze rents too. Allow them to increase by CPI each year.
    Then welcome to less homes to rent and those that are left becoming more neglected that is what happened last time we had rent controls
    If you want affordable rents then the solution is to build more houses.

    If there were enough houses then would-be landlords should face a choice of letting out a home for a lower rent, or having no tenant and paying all bills on the home themselves with no income coming in.

    In a free market rents should be considerably cheaper than a mortgage. If a tenant can afford to pay the landlord's mortgage they should be able to pay their own and cut out the middle man.
    I'm not sure about that. Rent has to cover maintenance costs as well as mortgage costs. So in an efficient market I'd expect the total cost of home ownership - mortgage and maintenance - to be about equal to rental costs. And so that means that rent > mortgage.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,573

    Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Good point. I'd freeze rents too. Allow them to increase by CPI each year.
    Then welcome to less homes to rent and those that are left becoming more neglected that is what happened last time we had rent controls
    If you want affordable rents then the solution is to build more houses.

    If there were enough houses then would-be landlords should face a choice of letting out a home for a lower rent, or having no tenant and paying all bills on the home themselves with no income coming in.

    In a free market rents should be considerably cheaper than a mortgage. If a tenant can afford to pay the landlord's mortgage they should be able to pay their own and cut out the middle man.
    Welcome to Bartopia.
    There's countries out there that have more affordable housing than we do, because they don't have the constraints on building houses that we do.

    Its not rocket science, its fundamental economics. Constrain supply and prices go up.
    Yes of course. But we do have a constraint on supply because, as a country, we choose not to allow building in the countryside.

    Now, you may argue that the solution to that is for the country to choose to allow building anywhere, but let me introduce my guaranteed way to end all wars: everyone stop fighting.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661

    Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Good point. I'd freeze rents too. Allow them to increase by CPI each year.
    Then welcome to less homes to rent and those that are left becoming more neglected that is what happened last time we had rent controls
    If you want affordable rents then the solution is to build more houses.

    If there were enough houses then would-be landlords should face a choice of letting out a home for a lower rent, or having no tenant and paying all bills on the home themselves with no income coming in.

    In a free market rents should be considerably cheaper than a mortgage. If a tenant can afford to pay the landlord's mortgage they should be able to pay their own and cut out the middle man.
    I'm not sure about that. Rent has to cover maintenance costs as well as mortgage costs. So in an efficient market I'd expect the total cost of home ownership - mortgage and maintenance - to be about equal to rental costs. And so that means that rent > mortgage.
    turn it around … the rental price is the opportunity cost of house ownership (i.e. occupation)

  • Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Good point. I'd freeze rents too. Allow them to increase by CPI each year.
    Then welcome to less homes to rent and those that are left becoming more neglected that is what happened last time we had rent controls
    If you want affordable rents then the solution is to build more houses.

    If there were enough houses then would-be landlords should face a choice of letting out a home for a lower rent, or having no tenant and paying all bills on the home themselves with no income coming in.

    In a free market rents should be considerably cheaper than a mortgage. If a tenant can afford to pay the landlord's mortgage they should be able to pay their own and cut out the middle man.
    I'm not sure about that. Rent has to cover maintenance costs as well as mortgage costs. So in an efficient market I'd expect the total cost of home ownership - mortgage and maintenance - to be about equal to rental costs. And so that means that rent > mortgage.
    No. Part of the mortgage is accumulating capital. Eventually a mortgage will be paid off, rent continues forever.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,760

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not as much as other cliff edges such as those on UC face does though.

    All such cliff edges should be abolished, including the 100k one but the 100k one is the least important of the cliff edges to address.

    Some people act as if only the 100k one matters. It does matter, but others do too.
    I don’t disagree with you on that.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,573

    Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Good point. I'd freeze rents too. Allow them to increase by CPI each year.
    Then welcome to less homes to rent and those that are left becoming more neglected that is what happened last time we had rent controls
    If you want affordable rents then the solution is to build more houses.

    If there were enough houses then would-be landlords should face a choice of letting out a home for a lower rent, or having no tenant and paying all bills on the home themselves with no income coming in.

    In a free market rents should be considerably cheaper than a mortgage. If a tenant can afford to pay the landlord's mortgage they should be able to pay their own and cut out the middle man.
    I'm not sure about that. Rent has to cover maintenance costs as well as mortgage costs. So in an efficient market I'd expect the total cost of home ownership - mortgage and maintenance - to be about equal to rental costs. And so that means that rent > mortgage.
    Rents are inflated versus mortgages because, if you're on low pay you can get UC help with rent but not with a mortgage.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,473
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Phil said:

    FPT:

    algarkirk said:

    mercator said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/sep/03/i-am-evil-i-did-this-lucy-letbys-so-called-confessions-were-written-on-advice-of-counsellors

    Absolute and utter bombshell news. Except to people like me who were always saying that self accusations by the depressed are not to be taken at face value.

    Guardian still on this. It's going to run and run. It presents as revelation stuff about the origin of the Letby written material which, assuming the story is accurate, was in the personal knowledge of the defendant and all of which they were fully entitled to explain in their evidence.

    Material which could be self incriminating is put in evidence and is exactly what it is. The prosecution is not going to throw it away, it is highly relevant, and the defence is absolutely entitled to give their account of what it means, why it exists and why it isn't a confession.

    This of course was just one of a multiple set of threads of evidence. The grounds of appeal made no mention of how the judge or prosecution had handled the written material, there was no complaint.

    Nothing to see here.
    I think the obvious question, again, is: if this was the case why didn’t her defence call her psychologist / counsellor as a witness so that this claim of hers could be given a stronger footing than ”the defendant said so” ?

    If you have a piece of paper on which the defendant has written “I am evil” it seems as if you should move heaven & earth to convince the jury otherwise. Why didn’t her defence call any witnesses to support her claim?

    Still, for me, the convincing evidence is the insulin - I know that the test was supposedly ”not of forensic quality” but if you want to void the prosecution story you need some explanation for how those babies ended up with so much insulin in their bloodstream. Either it was someone else, or an error, or else the test was flawed in some fundamental way that could be fooled by other drugs or infant metabolism, but you do, I think, need to provide plausible evidence for at least one of those options, otherwise the jury is going to (reasonably) conclude that Letby did it.
    I don't want to spend another evening debating this but:

    1) Reflective notes written by defendents have been used in trials before, for example the Bawa-Garba case of manslaughter.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20180205184552/http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/your-practice/practice-topics/legal/revealed-how-reflections-were-used-in-the-bawa-garba-case/20036090.article

    2) if Letby was so severely depressed as to be unfit to plead or direct her case that would have been obvious during such a long trial, and psychological evaluation is a fairly routine assessment of suspected serial killers.
    It's much better for the NHS if bad things are ascribed to lone wolves rather than systemic failures.
    The whole point of the public enquiry is to look for the system failures around the Letby case. In particular management's response to whistle-blower raising concerns.

    If you want a systemic NHS scandal, that is where you should look.

    Even if Letby gets cleared on appeal, the treatment of staff raising concerns was not appropriate.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Good point. I'd freeze rents too. Allow them to increase by CPI each year.
    Then welcome to less homes to rent and those that are left becoming more neglected that is what happened last time we had rent controls
    If you want affordable rents then the solution is to build more houses.

    If there were enough houses then would-be landlords should face a choice of letting out a home for a lower rent, or having no tenant and paying all bills on the home themselves with no income coming in.

    In a free market rents should be considerably cheaper than a mortgage. If a tenant can afford to pay the landlord's mortgage they should be able to pay their own and cut out the middle man.
    I'm not sure about that. Rent has to cover maintenance costs as well as mortgage costs. So in an efficient market I'd expect the total cost of home ownership - mortgage and maintenance - to be about equal to rental costs. And so that means that rent > mortgage.
    Rent does not remotely have to cover mortgage costs, there's absolutely no reason why the landlord needs to have a mortgage on the property. If you already own a property then letting it out to cover your costs is cheaper than keeping it unoccupied, even if its not profitable enough to pay for a mortgage to buy a property.

    In countries where it is easy to build properties as you don't need to beg permission to do so, renting is typically cheaper than buying, as those who can afford to buy do so instead.

    See Japan as an example. It is cheaper in Japan to let a property than to buy one, the advantage of buying one* is that in the future after paying off a mortgage you end up not needing to rent anymore, not because its profitable as an investment.

    * That used to be considered the reason to buy in this country too, before the market became insane and the idea that property must be a get rich quick escalator of ever higher prices.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,864
    mercator said:

    We need a new law of nature on politicalbetting: the Letbyshed.

    People get so pissed after a certain time each evening they start posting baseless speculation about how she might be innocent.

    I am a teetotaller, a qualified lawyer and on statistical grounds almost certainly more intelligent than you are. You seem to get so pissed after a certain time each evening that the injustice of CR jr being deprived of having a shit time at overpriceddotheboyshall plc looms larger in your imagination than the holodomor. We all have our priorities.
    Well in which case I shall refrain from ever posting again, and shall just let you tell me how it is.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    no idea where welcome from I typed coming off uc....not sure how that morphed into welcome
    That's bizarre. (agree your sentiment btw)

    On topic: Yes I've sometimes got 'lost' in a book. Two examples. Keith Richards autobiography essentially obliterated one Easter weekend. The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle, a longish novel by Murakami, I once read in one massive go lying in a hotel room in Malaysia, could hardly bear to break off to go to the bathroom.

    This no longer happens. My capacity for sustained intense focus is not what it was.
    Hopefully not lost for good? I had a few years of reading very few books, but started reading more regularly about a year ago. There have been several books in the last year that have held my attention even more firmly than a major argument on PB.com would do.
    That’s quite the accolade. Are you sure?
    Bear in mind that I've read about five dozen books so far this year, and the list of books that merit that distinction is only a subset of those. They are:
    A Ghost in The Throat by Doireann Ni Ghriofa
    Prophet Song by Paul Lynch
    The Once and Future Witches by Alix E Harrow
    Dogs of War by Adrian Tchaikovsky
    A Deadly Education by Naomi Novik
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,573

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not as much as other cliff edges such as those on UC face does though.

    All such cliff edges should be abolished, including the 100k one but the 100k one is the least important of the cliff edges to address.

    Some people act as if only the 100k one matters. It does matter, but others do too.
    The UC cliff edge is a challenge but the only way to solve it would be through a Universal Basic Income, reduced personal ICT allowance and progressive ICT rates.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Good point. I'd freeze rents too. Allow them to increase by CPI each year.
    Then welcome to less homes to rent and those that are left becoming more neglected that is what happened last time we had rent controls
    If you want affordable rents then the solution is to build more houses.

    If there were enough houses then would-be landlords should face a choice of letting out a home for a lower rent, or having no tenant and paying all bills on the home themselves with no income coming in.

    In a free market rents should be considerably cheaper than a mortgage. If a tenant can afford to pay the landlord's mortgage they should be able to pay their own and cut out the middle man.
    I'm not sure about that. Rent has to cover maintenance costs as well as mortgage costs. So in an efficient market I'd expect the total cost of home ownership - mortgage and maintenance - to be about equal to rental costs. And so that means that rent > mortgage.
    No. Part of the mortgage is accumulating capital. Eventually a mortgage will be paid off, rent continues forever.
    Yes, sorry, but for the landlord who owns the house that they rent out, the capital tied up in the house still costs them roughly the notional cost of what a mortgage would cost, because if it wasn't generating that sort of return then they would sell the property and invest the capital in something that would give them a better return.

    Obviously the actual lifetime costs of paying for a mortgage should end up lower, because once you've paid off your mortgage that's it, but then you're effectively ignoring the opportunity cost of tying up all your capital in property ownership, as opposed to investing it elsewhere and generating a return. So I guess the cost is still there, but you don't see it.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Landlords are already charging as much rent as they can get in the market. The rents charged on a property are not set by the costs a landlord faces, but by the demand for rental property and the financial capacity of potential renters to pay.

    So taxing rental income will not see rents rise.
    I take it you don't rent? I do....when I move if the rent is advertised at say 1000pcm....its not likely the rent I will end up paying as there will be 10 odd other people also wanting to rent it as there is a shortage of homes for rent as it is. Last two times I have moved home its been a bidding war
  • Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Good point. I'd freeze rents too. Allow them to increase by CPI each year.
    Then welcome to less homes to rent and those that are left becoming more neglected that is what happened last time we had rent controls
    If you want affordable rents then the solution is to build more houses.

    If there were enough houses then would-be landlords should face a choice of letting out a home for a lower rent, or having no tenant and paying all bills on the home themselves with no income coming in.

    In a free market rents should be considerably cheaper than a mortgage. If a tenant can afford to pay the landlord's mortgage they should be able to pay their own and cut out the middle man.
    I'm not sure about that. Rent has to cover maintenance costs as well as mortgage costs. So in an efficient market I'd expect the total cost of home ownership - mortgage and maintenance - to be about equal to rental costs. And so that means that rent > mortgage.
    No. Part of the mortgage is accumulating capital. Eventually a mortgage will be paid off, rent continues forever.
    Yes, sorry, but for the landlord who owns the house that they rent out, the capital tied up in the house still costs them roughly the notional cost of what a mortgage would cost, because if it wasn't generating that sort of return then they would sell the property and invest the capital in something that would give them a better return.

    Obviously the actual lifetime costs of paying for a mortgage should end up lower, because once you've paid off your mortgage that's it, but then you're effectively ignoring the opportunity cost of tying up all your capital in property ownership, as opposed to investing it elsewhere and generating a return. So I guess the cost is still there, but you don't see it.
    That's not the same as a mortgage cost as banks etc have profits in their mortgage costs and of course if you sell the property in a competitive market you'll get less for it, so if you want to hold on to the property then taking less in rent can cover your costs even if it doesn't cover a mortgage.

    Again in Japan it is cheaper to rent than pay a mortgage in the short run. In the long run if you don't plan on moving it becomes cheaper to buy as after decades of mortgage your payments stop while renting goes on forever, but the idea of paying rent that costs more than a mortgage? That doesn't happen because its utterly mad and is symptomatic of our broken housing system.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Landlords are already charging as much rent as they can get in the market. The rents charged on a property are not set by the costs a landlord faces, but by the demand for rental property and the financial capacity of potential renters to pay.

    So taxing rental income will not see rents rise.
    I take it you don't rent? I do....when I move if the rent is advertised at say 1000pcm....its not likely the rent I will end up paying as there will be 10 odd other people also wanting to rent it as there is a shortage of homes for rent as it is. Last two times I have moved home its been a bidding war
    Because we have a shortage of housing, not because of landlords costs.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,780
    Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    My experience as a renter....increase the costs to landlords by 5% and the rent will increase by more than 5% because hey I am increasing the rent anyway so I might as well get an extra few percent. If they object I can get it from a new tenant and probably add another couple of percent into the bargain
    Indeed.
  • Phil said:

    FPT:

    algarkirk said:

    mercator said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/sep/03/i-am-evil-i-did-this-lucy-letbys-so-called-confessions-were-written-on-advice-of-counsellors

    Absolute and utter bombshell news. Except to people like me who were always saying that self accusations by the depressed are not to be taken at face value.

    Guardian still on this. It's going to run and run. It presents as revelation stuff about the origin of the Letby written material which, assuming the story is accurate, was in the personal knowledge of the defendant and all of which they were fully entitled to explain in their evidence.

    Material which could be self incriminating is put in evidence and is exactly what it is. The prosecution is not going to throw it away, it is highly relevant, and the defence is absolutely entitled to give their account of what it means, why it exists and why it isn't a confession.

    This of course was just one of a multiple set of threads of evidence. The grounds of appeal made no mention of how the judge or prosecution had handled the written material, there was no complaint.

    Nothing to see here.
    I think the obvious question, again, is: if this was the case why didn’t her defence call her psychologist / counsellor as a witness so that this claim of hers could be given a stronger footing than ”the defendant said so” ?

    If you have a piece of paper on which the defendant has written “I am evil” it seems as if you should move heaven & earth to convince the jury otherwise. Why didn’t her defence call any witnesses to support her claim?

    Still, for me, the convincing evidence is the insulin - I know that the test was supposedly ”not of forensic quality” but if you want to void the prosecution story you need some explanation for how those babies ended up with so much insulin in their bloodstream. Either it was someone else, or an error, or else the test was flawed in some fundamental way that could be fooled by other drugs or infant metabolism, but you do, I think, need to provide plausible evidence for at least one of those options, otherwise the jury is going to (reasonably) conclude that Letby did it.
    It seems quite plausible that Letby killed some but not others, and if you think about it, that was also the prosecution case which is what led them to omit cases favourable to the defence from their statistical presentation. Whatever is the truth, it seems clear that the criminal justice system has messed things up again.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,780

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Landlords are already charging as much rent as they can get in the market. The rents charged on a property are not set by the costs a landlord faces, but by the demand for rental property and the financial capacity of potential renters to pay.

    So taxing rental income will not see rents rise.
    If all landlords whack their rents up to cover the tax - and they will - renters will be stuck paying it.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Landlords are already charging as much rent as they can get in the market. The rents charged on a property are not set by the costs a landlord faces, but by the demand for rental property and the financial capacity of potential renters to pay.

    So taxing rental income will not see rents rise.
    I take it you don't rent? I do....when I move if the rent is advertised at say 1000pcm....its not likely the rent I will end up paying as there will be 10 odd other people also wanting to rent it as there is a shortage of homes for rent as it is. Last two times I have moved home its been a bidding war
    Because we have a shortage of housing, not because of landlords costs.
    I wasn't arguing differently....I was merely pointing out to LostPassword his assumption that all rents are at market max is a flawed idea else we wouldn't have landlords advertising a property at price £x then renting after a bidding war knocks it up to £x + 10%. Landlords advertise at what they think is market maximum.

    Like gazumping used to be a problem in buying a home it is now a problem faced by renters too
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Landlords are already charging as much rent as they can get in the market. The rents charged on a property are not set by the costs a landlord faces, but by the demand for rental property and the financial capacity of potential renters to pay.

    So taxing rental income will not see rents rise.
    If all landlords whack their rents up to cover the tax - and they will - renters will be stuck paying it.
    Why dont the landlords just whack rents up tomorrow anyway then? Generous bunch clearly.
  • Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Landlords are already charging as much rent as they can get in the market. The rents charged on a property are not set by the costs a landlord faces, but by the demand for rental property and the financial capacity of potential renters to pay.

    So taxing rental income will not see rents rise.
    If all landlords whack their rents up to cover the tax - and they will - renters will be stuck paying it.
    Unless we build more houses in which case the renters can buy a home of their own and the landlords can go swivel with an asset nobody is letting out.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599

    Pagan2 said:

    Driver said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'd be surprised if Labour broke its promise on not raising NI, VAT or Income tax.

    My guess is they will go for:
    1) remove higher rate pension relief- back to 20%
    2) increase capital gains tax
    3) reintroduce pensions lifetime allowance

    If they're feeling bold - I think they might try for scrapping inheritance tax and replacing it with a less generous lifetime gift allowance...

    I expect pension tax relief to be equalised at 25% which helps the 'working class' if anyone knows what that means

    Capital gains tax and lifetime allowances seem certain to be amended

    On IT I expect the seven year gift allowance to go
    If I were the government, any government, I'd stop buggering about with pensions limits and allowances almost each and every year.

    This is a big reason why we have a savings crisis in retirement, with people not feeling confident to invest, so they undersave, and it fuels a big demand for the State's services in retirement instead like, err, the NHS, discounts, and triple-lock pensions.

    It's remarkably short-sighted, but it's also remarkably easy to raid. Governments need to grow-up.
    Almost a third of pensioners live in millionaire households. It is not that we are undersaving as a whole it is inequality across the field, and the pension rules are built to favour those capable of the millionaire retirement and against that of the just managing.

    We should change that, because that is what will reduce/control future government spending on future retired.

    And yes we should change the rules less frequently. But when a party returns to office after a 14 year absence it seems a sensible time to change.
    If you change the rules, you'll find not so many pensioners do live in 'millionaire' households in future and become more reliant on the State.

    Bear in mind almost all private sector employers only contribute 3-6% to their employees pension pots, which require significant contributions from the individual on top, whereas public sector employers pay 20-35% contributions with even some final salary schemes still open.

    If anyone is living in clover, it's them.
    It seems perverse to incentivise people on £50K+ at double those on standard rate.
    40% incentive/pension credit for higher rate earners against 20% for standard rate.
    Make it the same at say 25%.
    Er, no, you are incentivising them to defer current income for future income. The tax relief reflects the tax they pay.

    Your ideas are shit. Same as Lefties all over.
    But the higher earner will save tax at 40, 45 or 60% on their earnings and only pay tax at 20% when they draw it and then only on 75% of it so an effective rate of 15%, assuming they never enter the 40% band, which they never should if they have any sense regarding managing their pension. A person on the basic rate band gets none of these tax breaks other than the tax being limited to 75% of the pension.

    That is clearly mindbogglingly unfair.
    Not really. If they draw their pension at the higher rate they will pay the higher rate. If they never draw a higher rate their pot will eventually expire or retire.

    If you try double-taxing people they'll simply stop saving into pensions or stop working causing us far bigger problems.
    Are you in favour of giving standard rate tax payers a 40% tax credit on their pension contributions to ensure they don't stop saving into pensions or stop working altogether?

    Or is it just the wealthy who deserve big tax breaks to keep them saving and working?

    PS You're losing this argument. I'd move onto something else. :smile:
    No I'm not. The point of pension tax relief is to incentivise earners to defer current taxable income into future taxable income by creating a pensions pot they can draw down so they can provide for themselves in old age without being a burden on the State. That's in all our interests as taxpayers, because the alternative isn't that they happily pay more tax it's that they stop working, work less or move which would reduce our tax take and growth, and store up bigger demographic challenges for us in future.

    We already subject pensions to a lifetime limit, which is calculated to not be absurdly generous, and that keeps people working hard and not quitting. And it's just starting to work in getting people ready for retirement.

    Your ideas are bad ideas, and that's why they need to be called out. Particularly because you and your ilk don't seem intellectually able enough to spot it.
    How about we reduce taxes on those working for a living all the time so they don't stop working, work less or move? Why should only those who are saving for a pension avoid that, shouldn't those saving for a deposit or paying a mortgage or any other cost in life be able to do that if that's their choice?
    We have tax free savings regimes for people who want to save for deposits.

    I have sympathy with CR’s point here - we need more people saving more money into private pensions, not less. There is a conversation around exactly where the bounds of generosity are set, perhaps, but pensions saving should not be discouraged generally.
    I agree, but the incentives are truly plentiful anyway. Extra incentives aren't needed for the wealthy. Of course the nutty PA claw back at £100k causes a huge number of additional pension contributions, but if that anomaly was sorted it would disappear.
    Yes. If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system.
    I would suggest fixing the cliff edge coming welcome would benefit 100x more people and bring more into full time work than fixing a cliffedge for the 1%
    No idea what 'the cliff edge coming welcome' is but I take your point about just 1% being bothered about the 100k cliff edge.
    Perhaps more people should be bothered about it, because it encourages behaviours that don’t benefit the exchequer.
    Not much. And certainly not to the extent that "If you fixed the 100k cliff edge you’d fix a lot of problems in the system".

    Equalising the tax on earned and unearned income would have much more benefit.

    And as Pagan pointed out, reducing the 55% marginal UC 'tax' would impact a a lot more people.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel brings in a little 5% extra tax on interest and rental income...
    Me neither. In fact, I'd be disappointed if she doesn't.
    You want rents to go up by 5%?
    Good point. I'd freeze rents too. Allow them to increase by CPI each year.
    Then welcome to less homes to rent and those that are left becoming more neglected that is what happened last time we had rent controls
    If you want affordable rents then the solution is to build more houses.

    If there were enough houses then would-be landlords should face a choice of letting out a home for a lower rent, or having no tenant and paying all bills on the home themselves with no income coming in.

    In a free market rents should be considerably cheaper than a mortgage. If a tenant can afford to pay the landlord's mortgage they should be able to pay their own and cut out the middle man.
    I'm not sure about that. Rent has to cover maintenance costs as well as mortgage costs. So in an efficient market I'd expect the total cost of home ownership - mortgage and maintenance - to be about equal to rental costs. And so that means that rent > mortgage.
    Rents are inflated versus mortgages because, if you're on low pay you can get UC help with rent but not with a mortgage.
    Which can be rewritten as the government spends tens of billions to subsidise landlords through inflated rents.
This discussion has been closed.