politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » “The next CON leader will not be a white man” – Tory inside
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That should be the worry of everyone. But in a referendum campaign I would have thought the difffering parties would be asked what their intention would be if the vote was YES - to leave.HurstLlama said:" its still completely possible to have a referendum, and then not get what we sign up for."
Actually it is impossible to have a referendum and to know what the alternatives are.
The terms of trade and the details of our relationship with the EU can only be settled after invoking Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty but that can only be invoked after we have voted to leave.
It is therefore impossible for the electorate to be given what I would call a fair vote.
The EU presumably would not be keen to offer an alternative as part of negotiations. But then again we do not know how semi detached these negotiations might leave us bearing in mind the inevitable Eurozone/EU integration. Cameron did say that he did not believe in 'ever closer union' so from his point of view the negotiations would involve resolving that.
One way or another under a Conservative govt we will become semi detached from the EU.
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Bond_James_Bond said:
Re torture. They also chained a prisoner to a wall in such a way that he couldn't stand up; wearing only a sweatshirt he died of cold sitting on a concrete floor all night in an unheated cell in winter. It is just literally incredible, unthinkable brutality.
There seems to be some pathological American addiction to euphemism. "Enhanced interrogation techniques" when they mean "Nazi-style torture", FFS. Specifically, "walling [smashing people into walls via a towel knotted around their neck], attention grasps, slapping, facial hold [physical assaults of one kind or another], stress positions, cramped confinement,
white noise and sleep deprivation" - the latter three often in combination for periods over a week.
The rectal "feeding" sounds like homosexual rape to me. Why aren't these people being jailed for 100 years?
Rectal rehydration is a long established technique, and one often used to give fluids in a combat situation:Bond_James_Bond said:Re torture. They also chained a prisoner to a wall in such a way that he couldn't stand up; wearing only a sweatshirt he died of cold sitting on a concrete floor all night in an unheated cell in winter. It is just literally incredible, unthinkable brutality.
There seems to be some pathological American addiction to euphemism. "Enhanced interrogation techniques" when they mean "Nazi-style torture", FFS. Specifically, "walling [smashing people into walls via a towel knotted around their neck], attention grasps, slapping, facial hold [physical assaults of one kind or another], stress positions, cramped confinement,
white noise and sleep deprivation" - the latter three often in combination for periods over a week.
The rectal "feeding" sounds like homosexual rape to me. Why aren't these people being jailed for 100 years?
http://www.realfirstaid.co.uk/rectal/
Not that I am suggesting the CIA acted properly!0 -
''A lot of the rightwingers defending these torturing quasi-rapists are the same people who think consensual homosexuality should be recriminalised.''
I don;t think any right wingers have defended these torturing quasi-rapists. Certainly not any on here.
This is a straw man.0 -
That's my problem.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But you're not a Quiet Man!TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm a mouthy bastard.
If I were Tory leader and someone defected to UKIP my language would have been very naughty.
Tory leader calls Mark Reckless a...0 -
So Cameron never gave a "cast iron guarantee" for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty?Flightpath said:
No it does not. Cameron broke no promises and the only phony id Farage peddling his big lie about the EU. Not that bigoted you cares tuppence about truth.LordWakefield said:
Well that rules out cast iron Dave and and his phony conservatives.Flightpath said:
Brilliant. Lets vote for the party that will give us a referendum.Socrates said:Britain would vote to leave EU: 47% to 34%
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/545654/Britain-Referendum-Vote-In-Out-Vote-Europe-EU-Survey
Could you point out what exactly I've said that is bigoted?
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Like it or not, it's the biggest scandal from the UK making the American news.TheWatcher said:
Blimey. Is there anything that you won't try and link to your strange obsession?Socrates said:
Like there's some pathological British addiction to child abuse, with everyone from MPs to Rotherham taxi drivers engaging in it and then getting it covered up?Bond_James_Bond said:Re torture. They also chained a prisoner to a wall in such a way that he couldn't stand up; wearing only a sweatshirt he died of cold sitting on a concrete floor all night in an unheated cell in winter. It is just literally incredible, unthinkable brutality.
There seems to be some pathological American addiction to euphemism. "Enhanced interrogation techniques" when they mean "Nazi-style torture", FFS. Specifically, "walling [smashing people into walls via a towel knotted around their neck], attention grasps, slapping, facial hold [physical assaults of one kind or another], stress positions, cramped confinement,
white noise and sleep deprivation" - the latter three often in combination for periods over a week.
The rectal "feeding" sounds like homosexual rape to me. Why aren't these people being jailed for 100 years?
This comic comes to mind:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/how_it_works.png
The problem here isn't "Americans". It's one particular faction that has grabbed control of one political party. This stuff hasn't been done since Obama came in, wasn't done under Clinton, and wasn't done under Bush Senior.0 -
The beauty of it all is that if anyone (pace @Socrates) doesn't like the premise of the question, then it's "out".Flightpath said:
That should be the worry of everyone. But in a referendum campaign I would have thought the difffering parties would be asked what their intention would be if the vote was YES - to leave.HurstLlama said:" its still completely possible to have a referendum, and then not get what we sign up for."
Actually it is impossible to have a referendum and to know what the alternatives are.
The terms of trade and the details of our relationship with the EU can only be settled after invoking Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty but that can only be invoked after we have voted to leave.
It is therefore impossible for the electorate to be given what I would call a fair vote.
The EU presumably would not be keen to offer an alternative as part of negotiations. But then again we do not know how semi detached these negotiations might leave us bearing in mind the inevitable Eurozone/EU integration. Cameron did say that he did not believe in 'ever closer union' so from his point of view the negotiations would involve resolving that.
One way or another under a Conservative govt we will become semi detached from the EU.
Any attempted bait & switch on the part of the Cons in saying "well they're going to do this, that or the other for us in future" which people don't believe? People have a choice to say "out".
It really is simplicity itself.0 -
No bother, Mr. J., we have all misread posts from time to time.JosiasJessop said:
Apologies Mr Llama, I misunderstood your post. Please ignore my post. (cue laughter from other posters and lurkers) :-)JosiasJessop said:
Just as long as the BOO campaign face up to the same responsibility, and detail what 'being our of the EU' means in terms of which bodies we will be part of and not part of, and the costs thereof.HurstLlama said:" its still completely possible to have a referendum, and then not get what we sign up for."
Actually it is impossible to have a referendum and to know what the alternatives are.
The terms of trade and the details of our relationship with the EU can only be settled after invoking Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty but that can only be invoked after we have voted to leave.
It is therefore impossible for the electorate to be given what I would call a fair vote.
Agreement on that might be just as difficult as Cameron's negotiations, both inside Britain and with the organisations themselves.0 -
And I thought his legacy couldn't get any worse:
Tony Blair knew in detail about the CIA’s secret kidnap and interrogation programme after the September 11 attacks, a security source has told The Telegraph, the newspaper reported.
The then prime minster and Jack Straw, his foreign secretary, were kept informed “every step of the way” by MI6 and were shown Bush administration legal opinions that declared “enhanced interrogation” techniques such as waterboarding and stress positions to be legal, the source said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tony-blair-knew-everything-about-cia-interrogation-programme-9241863.html0 -
Flightpath throws around the word "bigot" all the time. It substitutes for argument.LordWakefield said:
So Cameron never gave a "cast iron guarantee" for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty?Flightpath said:
No it does not. Cameron broke no promises and the only phony id Farage peddling his big lie about the EU. Not that bigoted you cares tuppence about truth.LordWakefield said:
Well that rules out cast iron Dave and and his phony conservatives.Flightpath said:
Brilliant. Lets vote for the party that will give us a referendum.Socrates said:Britain would vote to leave EU: 47% to 34%
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/545654/Britain-Referendum-Vote-In-Out-Vote-Europe-EU-Survey
Could you point out what exactly I've said that is bigoted?0 -
"I don;t think any right wingers have defended these torturing quasi-rapists..."
Bruce Anderson comes to mind: he went on record saying he wouldn't be bothered if the US tortured an innocent or two, even children, and I doubt his attitude towards gays is an especially enlightened one. Perhaps the most egregious aspect of this vile man's nonsense is that *The Independent* hired him!0 -
I'm not comparing the USA to the Third Reich, I'm comparing the CIA to the Gestapo and the Kempeitai. In their methods they are identical.Socrates said:
While the US torture program is a terrible and horrific thing, it's clearly very different to what the Germans were up to in the 40s. US torture methods inadvertently caused one man to die. The Germans deliberately executed millions.TheWatcher said:
It's no different to what the Germans were up to in the 40's, boiling people alive and ripping off fingernails etcBond_James_Bond said:Re torture. They also chained a prisoner to a wall in such a way that he couldn't stand up; wearing only a sweatshirt he died of cold sitting on a concrete floor all night in an unheated cell in winter. It is just literally incredible, unthinkable brutality.
There seems to be some pathological American addiction to euphemism. "Enhanced interrogation techniques" when they mean "Nazi-style torture", FFS. Specifically, "walling [smashing people into walls via a towel knotted around their neck], attention grasps, slapping, facial hold [physical assaults of one kind or another], stress positions, cramped confinement,
white noise and sleep deprivation" - the latter three often in combination for periods over a week.
The rectal "feeding" sounds like homosexual rape to me. Why aren't these people being jailed for 100 years?
Rereading The Railway Man recently, I note the following similarities between Japanese and American interrogation methods:
- violent physical assault; Lomax was beaten with pickaxe handles, American detainees with fists, boots and by being smashed face-first into walls
- withholding of medical assistance; the CIA waterboarded a man with a head cold and doctors' role was limited to approving further torture
- exposure to extreme temperatures in stress positions: the Japanese made men stand at attention in full tropical sun for 3 days; the CIA chained men naked to walls in unheated cells in winter
- waterboarding: practice common to both CIA and Kempeitai
- confinement boxes: both shackled prisoners into boxes (CIA) / cages (Kempeitai) where they were unable to extend their limbs
- perpetual artificial light: the lights were left on all the time at Outram Road jail, as in the US prisons
- prisoners forced to sleep on concrete
- threats to prisoners' friends and families
- mock executions
On balance the CIA were actually worse - the Japanese did not routinely anally rape their prisoners.
I think the love of the obfuscatory euphemism is indeed characteristic of American officialdom. Does anyone else remember Norman Schwarzkopf mentioning "collateral damage to a religious facility" when he meant " we bombed a mosque"?
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Ed ms latest tweet on desperately seeking apprentices makes him look very in touch with the common man... none in the parks?0
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I can forgive Tristram for not liking public schools if he went to one, but Anthony Crosland also went to public school and he hated Grammar schools- a bit bizarre.
Ed's also weird, so are we to conclude that it's the parents that cause the trouble and that Philip Larkin was correct with that poem?0 -
"And you have interfered with my plans for the last time, Mr Bond!"Bond_James_Bond said:
I'm not comparing the USA to the Third Reich, I'm comparing the CIA to the Gestapo and the Kempeitai. In their methods they are identical.Socrates said:
While the US torture program is a terrible and horrific thing, it's clearly very different to what the Germans were up to in the 40s. US torture methods inadvertently caused one man to die. The Germans deliberately executed millions.TheWatcher said:
It's no different to what the Germans were up to in the 40's, boiling people alive and ripping off fingernails etc
Rereading The Railway Man recently, I note the following similarities between Japanese and American interrogation methods:
- violent physical assault; Lomax was beaten with pickaxe handles, American detainees with fists, boots and by being smashed face-first into walls
- withholding of medical assistance; the CIA waterboarded a man with a head cold and doctors' role was limited to approving further torture
- exposure to extreme temperatures in stress positions: the Japanese made men stand at attention in full tropical sun for 3 days; the CIA chained men naked to walls in unheated cells in winter
- waterboarding: practice common to both CIA and Kempeitai
- confinement boxes: both shackled prisoners into boxes (CIA) / cages (Kempeitai) where they were unable to extend their limbs
- perpetual artificial light: the lights were left on all the time at Outram Road jail, as in the US prisons
- prisoners forced to sleep on concrete
- threats to prisoners' friends and families
- mock executions
On balance the CIA were actually worse - the Japanese did not routinely anally rape their prisoners.
I think the love of the obfuscatory euphemism is indeed characteristic of American officialdom. Does anyone else remember Norman Schwarzkopf mentioning "collateral damage to a religious facility" when he meant " we bombed a mosque"?
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Precisely. It is symmetrical: there will no doubt be some uncertainty on the final terms if we stay in (I agree with Socrates that it won't be done and dusted), but there will of course be as much, or probably more, uncertainty on the terms if we leave. That's life: you have to make a choice on incomplete information. That would be no different whenever a choice between staying in or leaving was made.TOPPING said:The beauty of it all is that if anyone (pace @Socrates) doesn't like the premise of the question, then it's "out".
Any attempted bait & switch on the part of the Cons in saying "well they're going to do this, that or the other for us in future" which people don't believe? People have a choice to say "out".
It really is simplicity itself.
The intellectual contortions the Kippers get themselves into in order to justify trying to sabotage the referendum are a wonder to behold. Do we want to leave the EU or not? That is what the British people will have the opportunity to decide, if we get a Conservative government.0 -
The then Labour government were complicit in the perverted barbarity.A_Man_Called_Horse said:"I don;t think any right wingers have defended these torturing quasi-rapists..."
Bruce Anderson comes to mind: he went on record saying he wouldn't be bothered if the US tortured an innocent or two, even children, and I doubt his attitude towards gays is an especially enlightened one. Perhaps the most egregious aspect of this vile man's nonsense is that *The Independent* hired him!0 -
Quite unusual to find pilot quite so unaware of Rule 5 of the Rules of the Air Regulations.Ishmael_X said:
Unusual to see an anecdote which fails on so many different levels. The student himself wasn't flying the helicopter, so what has this got to do with his intelligence? Whoever was flying the helicopter was presumably qualified to do so, and I imagine helicopter pilots are taught to think carefully when landing anywhere about the possible effects of turbulence. Why would "lusty" (do you mean "sturdy"?) guests need to hold on to the guy (not guide) ropes, which would already be anchored to the ground? Why would any school, even one as vulgar and awful as Millfield, give permission to anyone to land a helicopter on a playing field on sports day?Roger said:Nigel
I always remember a sports day where the parents of one of our stupidest students arrived on the playing fields in his monogrammed helicopter blowing several of the stalls over and the marquee only being saved by some lusty guests holding the guide ropes. This student in a true meritocracy would now likely be on benefits
So where did I see him last week? Presenting the prime minister to his workforce as one of our leading buisiness men in the country (and a Tory donor) As someone said yesterday a fish rots from the head (or was it the tail) down and so it is with our class system. If we have any chance of making the country a better place the least we can do is give kids an equal start as soon as is possible0 -
To be fair to Jack Straw, he had more important things to worry about than torture -- such as passing laws criminalising the malicious breaking of shopkeepers' eggs!0
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There's a word for a political creed that considers individuals expendable in pursuit of the state's objectives.MonikerDiCanio said:
The then Labour government were complicit in the perverted barbarity.A_Man_Called_Horse said:"I don;t think any right wingers have defended these torturing quasi-rapists..."
Bruce Anderson comes to mind: he went on record saying he wouldn't be bothered if the US tortured an innocent or two, even children, and I doubt his attitude towards gays is an especially enlightened one. Perhaps the most egregious aspect of this vile man's nonsense is that *The Independent* hired him!
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Certainly puts a new interpretation on his role as middle East peace envoy.Socrates said:And I thought his legacy couldn't get any worse:
Tony Blair knew in detail about the CIA’s secret kidnap and interrogation programme after the September 11 attacks, a security source has told The Telegraph, the newspaper reported.
The then prime minster and Jack Straw, his foreign secretary, were kept informed “every step of the way” by MI6 and were shown Bush administration legal opinions that declared “enhanced interrogation” techniques such as waterboarding and stress positions to be legal, the source said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tony-blair-knew-everything-about-cia-interrogation-programme-9241863.html
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On PMQs, I notice that Harriet said that there has been a 90% fall in the number of sex discrimination cases brought to industrial tribunals. Apparently she thinks this is a bad thing.0
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Less work for lawyers?Richard_Nabavi said:On PMQs, I notice that Harriet said that there has been a 90% fall in the number of sex discrimination cases brought to industrial tribunals. Apparently she thinks this is a bad thing.
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From the article it sounds like age is bigger taboo than gender or race. Hillary Clinton is almost 10 years old than May.0
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Fresh from the DUP ruling out going into a coalition, Caroline Lucas has just ruled out the Greens going into coalition with the Conservatives. That does smack rather of me ruling myself out of consideration for the England football team.0
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Correct. The EU will not go away and we have to trade with it and deal with it.Richard_Nabavi said:
Precisely. It is symmetrical: there will no doubt be some uncertainty on the final terms if we stay in (I agree with Socrates that it won't be done and dusted), but there will of course be as much, or probably more, uncertainty on the terms if we leave. That's life: you have to make a choice on incomplete information. That would be no different whenever a choice between staying in or leaving was made.TOPPING said:The beauty of it all is that if anyone (pace @Socrates) doesn't like the premise of the question, then it's "out".
Any attempted bait & switch on the part of the Cons in saying "well they're going to do this, that or the other for us in future" which people don't believe? People have a choice to say "out".
It really is simplicity itself.
The intellectual contortions the Kippers get themselves into in order to justify trying to sabotage the referendum are a wonder to behold. Do we want to leave the EU or not? That is what the British people will have the opportunity to decide, if we get a Conservative government.
Immigration is not going to go away if we leave, but from UKIPs point of view the great joy is that it can still whip up prejudice against immigrants.
Perversly the way to reduce immigration is to improve the prosperity of the immigrant's home countries. And UKIP resents that.0 -
It's my understanding that what little assistance the US did provide was courtesy of George Schultz. The French were actually our most reliable ally.Socrates said:
What about imposing economic sanctions on Argentina after they invaded the Falklands, winning the Cold War for us, providing large funds for the establishment of democracies in Eastern Europe, liberating Kuwait to allow a continued energy supply, etc?Roger said:'Re torture. They also chained a prisoner to a wall in such a way that he couldn't stand up; wearing only a sweatshirt he died of cold sitting on a concrete floor all night in an unheated cell in winter. It is just literally incredible, unthinkable brutality........"
Good post 007.
Has anyone ever done a cost analysis of our 'special relationship' with the US?
Since '45 they've brought us nothing but expensive trouble and shame. We should have adopted the French model years ago and only dealt with them with a very long spoon.
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Torture is both morally wrong and provides little reliable intelligence, still the CIA can hardly be compared to the NKVD.0 -
@Richard_Nabavi
"The intellectual contortions the Kippers get themselves into in order to justify trying to sabotage the referendum are a wonder to behold"
I do hope that remark wasn't aimed at me, Old Chap. I am not trying to sabotage anything, merely pointing out that what you call "some uncertainty" will in fact be a leap in the dark because nobody can know what our relationship with the EU will be if we decide to leave until after we have decided to leave.0 -
It doesn't make it worse, Socco, just confirms what we knew already.Socrates said:And I thought his legacy couldn't get any worse:
Tony Blair knew in detail about the CIA’s secret kidnap and interrogation programme after the September 11 attacks, a security source has told The Telegraph, the newspaper reported.
The then prime minster and Jack Straw, his foreign secretary, were kept informed “every step of the way” by MI6 and were shown Bush administration legal opinions that declared “enhanced interrogation” techniques such as waterboarding and stress positions to be legal, the source said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tony-blair-knew-everything-about-cia-interrogation-programme-9241863.html
Blair's major failing was a blind allegiance to the US. It didn't work out too bad whilst Clinton was in the Oval Office, but when Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld moved in he was locked in to supporting a disastrous administration, more or less regardless of its policies and without any influence over them.
Whether he approved of the torture or not, he would have been powerless to do anything about it. I suppose therefore he just shrugged and decided there was nothing he could do about it.0 -
Mr Bond - the gestapo killed millions. The CIA haven't.
Were the CIA in any way effective in their methods? That must have some bearing. I'm guessing the suggestion is it did not.
I'm sure in WW2 we used some extreme methods. But then we did not have to worry about much, other than national survival, certainly not senate committees and adverse publicity which helps your supposed enemies.0 -
If you watch Fox news, you will see and hear a lot of "right wingers" defending the CIA. In fact, the way they see it, by investigating the CIA, Obama and the Democrats have struck a blow for Al Queda.taffys said:''A lot of the rightwingers defending these torturing quasi-rapists are the same people who think consensual homosexuality should be recriminalised.''
I don;t think any right wingers have defended these torturing quasi-rapists. Certainly not any on here.
This is a straw man.
It made me quite cross. Not cross enough to find myself siding with @LuckyPutinPuppet1983, but pretty cross.0 -
Rubbish. Blair is a far more blood-thirsty warmonger than any of the yanks you mention.Peter_the_Punter said:
It doesn't make it worse, Socco, just confirms what we knew already.Socrates said:And I thought his legacy couldn't get any worse:
Tony Blair knew in detail about the CIA’s secret kidnap and interrogation programme after the September 11 attacks, a security source has told The Telegraph, the newspaper reported.
The then prime minster and Jack Straw, his foreign secretary, were kept informed “every step of the way” by MI6 and were shown Bush administration legal opinions that declared “enhanced interrogation” techniques such as waterboarding and stress positions to be legal, the source said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tony-blair-knew-everything-about-cia-interrogation-programme-9241863.html
Blair's major failing was a blind allegiance to the US. It didn't work out too bad whilst Clinton was in the Oval Office, but when Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld moved in he was locked in to supporting a disastrous administration, more or less regardless of its policies and without any influence over them.
Whether he approved of the torture or not, he would have been powerless to do anything about it. I suppose therefore he just shrugged and decided there was nothing he could do about it.0 -
Socrates
The analysis you linked me to is fascinating.
The authors point out that immigrants bring with them the benefit of their education paid for by their home country. They estimate this amounts to £49 billion over 1995-2011. This is not included in their calculation in table 6.
They also say "In our analysis we consider immigrants’ children under the age of 16 as immigrants regardless of birth country but classify as natives everyone who is at least
16 and UK born, regardless of parents’ birthplace. This choice, it should be noted,
suggests that we are neglecting the contribution that these the children of immigrants
will make when they enter the labour market. [But they are counting their cost of education] Likewise, we are neglecting the costs of educating the immigrants themselves, which – other than the cost of educating thenative born workforce – has been borne not by British taxpayers but by taxpayers in the origin country. [The £49 billion referred to above].
Thus, while assigning to immigrants the cost of educating their
UK-born children, we are unable to assign to them the benefits that their children will
bring after leaving the education system and entering the labour market. In this sense,
all the results presented below are underestimates of immigrants’ net fiscal
contribution."
So overall their paper strongly suggests a net positive economic impact of immigration.
From your remarks I suspect that we both believe that immigration should be better managed by taking a more hard-headed cost benefit approach. However I am not emotionally engaged in the debate and would probably put the optimal net immigration target somewhat higher than you. I don't have a figure in mind.0 -
The counter-factual is a Britain that decided that it would behave broadly as Germany and France did. Would that have been better? With the benefit of hindsight, I think the answer is clearly yes.Peter_the_Punter said:
It doesn't make it worse, Socco, just confirms what we knew already.Socrates said:And I thought his legacy couldn't get any worse:
Tony Blair knew in detail about the CIA’s secret kidnap and interrogation programme after the September 11 attacks, a security source has told The Telegraph, the newspaper reported.
The then prime minster and Jack Straw, his foreign secretary, were kept informed “every step of the way” by MI6 and were shown Bush administration legal opinions that declared “enhanced interrogation” techniques such as waterboarding and stress positions to be legal, the source said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tony-blair-knew-everything-about-cia-interrogation-programme-9241863.html
Blair's major failing was a blind allegiance to the US. It didn't work out too bad whilst Clinton was in the Oval Office, but when Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld moved in he was locked in to supporting a disastrous administration, more or less regardless of its policies and without any influence over them.
Whether he approved of the torture or not, he would have been powerless to do anything about it. I suppose therefore he just shrugged and decided there was nothing he could do about it.
But in defence of Tony Blair (words I rarely write), he and the Foreign Office presumably formed the view that someone had to act as a restraining influence on the US, or the world looked as though it would come under the sway of a unipolar hyperpower that paid no regard to the previously established rules of international law. Britain was uniquely well-placed to play that role.
Imagine a world where the USA had invaded Iraq by itself and the later reconstruction had been more of a success. Do you think that it would have stopped there?
Tony Blair sought to stabilise the world by tempering American passions, and did so at the expense of his own integrity, lying to get the nation's support of the invasion. Yet it proved to be unnecessary. In many ways, it is a story worthy of a Shakespearean tragedy.0 -
I was about to say that people with TLAs never become leaders. But than I remembered FDR and then JFK.TheScreamingEagles said:
So I'm glad I didn't.0 -
In fact, the way they see it, by investigating the CIA, Obama and the Democrats have struck a blow for Al Queda.
Whichever side you are on, Al Qaeda is undoubtedly the winner here.0 -
No, it wasn't aimed at you, and I agree with you.HurstLlama said:
I do hope that remark wasn't aimed at me, Old Chap. I am not trying to sabotage anything, merely pointing out that what you call "some uncertainty" will in fact be a leap in the dark because nobody can know what our relationship with the EU will be if we decide to leave until after we have decided to leave.0 -
People with TLAs tend to die in office, so IDS had a lucky escape.Flightpath said:
I was about to say that people with TLAs never become leaders. But than I remembered FDR and then JFK.TheScreamingEagles said:
So I'm glad I didn't.
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You have traduced his comment. At the time of the Euro elections Cameron said if the treaty was not ratified before the (possibly then imminent general election) then he would give a referendum if elected. It was clearly stated in the manifesto. Brown delayed the election and signed the treaty. Cameron and the tory party voted against the treaty.LordWakefield said:
So Cameron never gave a "cast iron guarantee" for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty?Flightpath said:
No it does not. Cameron broke no promises and the only phony id Farage peddling his big lie about the EU. Not that bigoted you cares tuppence about truth.LordWakefield said:
Well that rules out cast iron Dave and and his phony conservatives.Flightpath said:
Brilliant. Lets vote for the party that will give us a referendum.Socrates said:Britain would vote to leave EU: 47% to 34%
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/545654/Britain-Referendum-Vote-In-Out-Vote-Europe-EU-Survey
Could you point out what exactly I've said that is bigoted?
Labour signed the trreaty thus demonstrating their compliance with the EU.
Cameron does not want ever closer union he wants to renegotiate our place in the EU. He promises a referendum after negotiations.
The only phony based on the facts is you - you who are happy to act to see that pro-EU Miliband and his pro Eu party are elected. I stand happy in my disgust of you thank you very much.
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I think that is over-generous. Indeed you could make a decent case for the proposition that Tony Blair was the only leader outside the US in a position to do something about it. And, even if he wasn't, he didn't have to associate us with what the US was doing.Peter_the_Punter said:Whether he approved of the torture or not, he would have been powerless to do anything about it. I suppose therefore he just shrugged and decided there was nothing he could do about it.
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Pah, Total Recall.Sunil_Prasannan said:
The best Sci-Fi film ever!Casino_Royale said:
Reminds me a bit of the Wrath of Khan.TheScreamingEagles said:
I like the term explosive cyclogenesis.OblitusSumMe said:
Oh no. That terminology started in America... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomb_(meteorology) with an article in a journal of the American Meteorological Society by a pair of MIT scientists.TheScreamingEagles said:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, I must concur. 'Weatherbomb' is ridiculous.
Weatherbomb sounds like a film the Syfy channel would make, and they've made films like Sharknado.
I believe weatherbomb came from the Met Office.
They also believe in Global Warming, so you can tell they are silly sausages.
*Innocent Face*
I think the preferred technical term is "explosive cyclogenesis".
We really should stop Americans ruining our language.0 -
Um, what's a TLA?rcs1000 said:
People with TLAs tend to die in office, so IDS had a lucky escape.Flightpath said:
I was about to say that people with TLAs never become leaders. But than I remembered FDR and then JFK.TheScreamingEagles said:
So I'm glad I didn't.0 -
ThreeSunil_Prasannan said:
Um, what's a TLA?rcs1000 said:
People with TLAs tend to die in office, so IDS had a lucky escape.Flightpath said:
I was about to say that people with TLAs never become leaders. But than I remembered FDR and then JFK.TheScreamingEagles said:
So I'm glad I didn't.
Letter
Acronym0 -
Well done you for reading the thing through.Barnesian said:Socrates
The analysis you linked me to is fascinating.
The authors point out that immigrants bring with them the benefit of their education paid for by their home country. They estimate this amounts to £49 billion over 1995-2011. This is not included in their calculation in table 6.
They also say "In our analysis we consider immigrants’ children under the age of 16 as immigrants regardless of birth country but classify as natives everyone who is at least
16 and UK born, regardless of parents’ birthplace. This choice, it should be noted,
suggests that we are neglecting the contribution that these the children of immigrants
will make when they enter the labour market. [But they are counting their cost of education] Likewise, we are neglecting the costs of educating the immigrants themselves, which – other than the cost of educating thenative born workforce – has been borne not by British taxpayers but by taxpayers in the origin country. [The £49 billion referred to above].
Thus, while assigning to immigrants the cost of educating their
UK-born children, we are unable to assign to them the benefits that their children will
bring after leaving the education system and entering the labour market. In this sense,
all the results presented below are underestimates of immigrants’ net fiscal
contribution."
So overall their paper strongly suggests a net positive economic impact of immigration.
From your remarks I suspect that we both believe that immigration should be better managed by taking a more hard-headed cost benefit approach. However I am not emotionally engaged in the debate and would probably put the optimal net immigration target somewhat higher than you. I don't have a figure in mind.
I think several studies have concluded that immigration is a (perhaps small) net positive to the host nation in terms of increased return on capital (as wages fall) and expanded GDP but that there is a section of the host population (namely those where there is competition with immigrants for jobs) which lose out immediately.
It is for these people that presumably the Kippers are standing up.
IMO they are not doing a very good job at articulating the actual dynamics involved, but then neither are the other parties.
I'm not sure of the political implications of saying something along the lines of: "you may have lost your job but don't worry it's for the greater good and anyway, when your ex-boss builds a new factory you may get a job there."
Probably not wildly positive.0 -
Pah GattacaPlato said:Pah, Total Recall.
Sunil_Prasannan said:
The best Sci-Fi film ever!Casino_Royale said:
Reminds me a bit of the Wrath of Khan.TheScreamingEagles said:
I like the term explosive cyclogenesis.OblitusSumMe said:
Oh no. That terminology started in America... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomb_(meteorology) with an article in a journal of the American Meteorological Society by a pair of MIT scientists.TheScreamingEagles said:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, I must concur. 'Weatherbomb' is ridiculous.
Weatherbomb sounds like a film the Syfy channel would make, and they've made films like Sharknado.
I believe weatherbomb came from the Met Office.
They also believe in Global Warming, so you can tell they are silly sausages.
*Innocent Face*
I think the preferred technical term is "explosive cyclogenesis".
We really should stop Americans ruining our language.
0 -
Blair could have put a stop to Rendition Flights using British facilities.Richard_Nabavi said:
I think that is over-generous. Indeed you could make a decent case for the proposition that Tony Blair was the only leader outside the US in a position to do something about it. And, even if he wasn't, he didn't have to associate us with what the US was doing.Peter_the_Punter said:Whether he approved of the torture or not, he would have been powerless to do anything about it. I suppose therefore he just shrugged and decided there was nothing he could do about it.
0 -
Pah, Galaxy QuestTCPoliticalBetting said:
Pah GattacaPlato said:Pah, Total Recall.
Sunil_Prasannan said:
The best Sci-Fi film ever!Casino_Royale said:
Reminds me a bit of the Wrath of Khan.TheScreamingEagles said:
I like the term explosive cyclogenesis.OblitusSumMe said:
Oh no. That terminology started in America... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomb_(meteorology) with an article in a journal of the American Meteorological Society by a pair of MIT scientists.TheScreamingEagles said:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, I must concur. 'Weatherbomb' is ridiculous.
Weatherbomb sounds like a film the Syfy channel would make, and they've made films like Sharknado.
I believe weatherbomb came from the Met Office.
They also believe in Global Warming, so you can tell they are silly sausages.
*Innocent Face*
I think the preferred technical term is "explosive cyclogenesis".
We really should stop Americans ruining our language.0 -
Best science fiction film of all time is undoubtedly Close Encounters Of The Third Kind.
Anyone who mentions 2001 will have a monolith put where no simian should encounter monolith.0 -
Those numbers were snapshot of the costs in that particular time period. It doesn't include future tax from the children admittedly, but it doesn't include future costs either (be it years of schooling for existing children post-2011, costs of educating children yet to be had, or future healthcare and pension costs. If someone wants to do a projected lifetime analysis of the costs and benefits, I'd be interested to see it, but it's dishonest to add just the future tax without the future costs. What this is is the costs and revenues from immigrants in any one time period, and that shows not just a negative, but a huge negative.Barnesian said:Socrates
The analysis you linked me to is fascinating.
The authors point out that immigrants bring with them the benefit of their education paid for by their home country. They estimate this amounts to £49 billion over 1995-2011. This is not included in their calculation in table 6.
They also say "In our analysis we consider immigrants’ children under the age of 16 as immigrants regardless of birth country but classify as natives everyone who is at least
16 and UK born, regardless of parents’ birthplace. This choice, it should be noted,
suggests that we are neglecting the contribution that these the children of immigrants
will make when they enter the labour market. [But they are counting their cost of education] Likewise, we are neglecting the costs of educating the immigrants themselves, which – other than the cost of educating thenative born workforce – has been borne not by British taxpayers but by taxpayers in the origin country. [The £49 billion referred to above].
Thus, while assigning to immigrants the cost of educating their
UK-born children, we are unable to assign to them the benefits that their children will
bring after leaving the education system and entering the labour market. In this sense,
all the results presented below are underestimates of immigrants’ net fiscal
contribution."
So overall their paper strongly suggests a net positive economic impact of immigration.
From your remarks I suspect that we both believe that immigration should be better managed by taking a more hard-headed cost benefit approach. However I am not emotionally engaged in the debate and would probably put the optimal net immigration target somewhat higher than you. I don't have a figure in mind.0 -
I remember someone once claiming that PCMCIA stood for:Socrates said:
ThreeSunil_Prasannan said:
Um, what's a TLA?rcs1000 said:
People with TLAs tend to die in office, so IDS had a lucky escape.Flightpath said:
I was about to say that people with TLAs never become leaders. But than I remembered FDR and then JFK.TheScreamingEagles said:
So I'm glad I didn't.
Letter
Acronym
People
Can't
Memorise
Computer
Industry
Acronyms0 -
Alien.Plato said:Pah, Total Recall.
Sunil_Prasannan said:
The best Sci-Fi film ever!Casino_Royale said:
Reminds me a bit of the Wrath of Khan.TheScreamingEagles said:
I like the term explosive cyclogenesis.OblitusSumMe said:
Oh no. That terminology started in America... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomb_(meteorology) with an article in a journal of the American Meteorological Society by a pair of MIT scientists.TheScreamingEagles said:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, I must concur. 'Weatherbomb' is ridiculous.
Weatherbomb sounds like a film the Syfy channel would make, and they've made films like Sharknado.
I believe weatherbomb came from the Met Office.
They also believe in Global Warming, so you can tell they are silly sausages.
*Innocent Face*
I think the preferred technical term is "explosive cyclogenesis".
We really should stop Americans ruining our language.0 -
No, I agree he could and should have done something about it, Richard, but I think Bush et al were pretty dismissive of him.Richard_Nabavi said:
I think that is over-generous. Indeed you could make a decent case for the proposition that Tony Blair was the only leader outside the US in a position to do something about it. And, even if he wasn't, he didn't have to associate us with what the US was doing.Peter_the_Punter said:Whether he approved of the torture or not, he would have been powerless to do anything about it. I suppose therefore he just shrugged and decided there was nothing he could do about it.
It probably wouldn't have made a difference but he should still have done the right thing.
My recollection is that European Leaders generally edged away from the US during that period, but 'Europe' was no more popular in this country then than it is now, so there would not have been many votes in aligning more with European Leaders. All the same, it would have been better for us and maybe even the US had he done so.
0 -
Socialism.Bond_James_Bond said:
There's a word for a political creed that considers individuals expendable in pursuit of the state's objectives.MonikerDiCanio said:
The then Labour government were complicit in the perverted barbarity.A_Man_Called_Horse said:"I don;t think any right wingers have defended these torturing quasi-rapists..."
Bruce Anderson comes to mind: he went on record saying he wouldn't be bothered if the US tortured an innocent or two, even children, and I doubt his attitude towards gays is an especially enlightened one. Perhaps the most egregious aspect of this vile man's nonsense is that *The Independent* hired him!
0 -
@TCPoliticalBetting
I hope someone buys you a dictionary for Christmas.0 -
When I was running BT's broadband roll-out - I told my colleagues that ADSL stood for Acronyms Don't Sell Lines.rcs1000 said:
I remember someone once claiming that PCMCIA stood for:Socrates said:
ThreeSunil_Prasannan said:
Um, what's a TLA?rcs1000 said:
People with TLAs tend to die in office, so IDS had a lucky escape.Flightpath said:
I was about to say that people with TLAs never become leaders. But than I remembered FDR and then JFK.TheScreamingEagles said:
So I'm glad I didn't.
Letter
Acronym
People
Can't
Memorise
Computer
Industry
Acronyms0 -
Gattaca has the best sound track.Plato said:Pah, Galaxy Quest
TCPoliticalBetting said:
Pah GattacaPlato said:Pah, Total Recall.
Sunil_Prasannan said:
The best Sci-Fi film ever!Casino_Royale said:
Reminds me a bit of the Wrath of Khan.TheScreamingEagles said:
I like the term explosive cyclogenesis.OblitusSumMe said:
Oh no. That terminology started in America... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomb_(meteorology) with an article in a journal of the American Meteorological Society by a pair of MIT scientists.TheScreamingEagles said:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, I must concur. 'Weatherbomb' is ridiculous.
Weatherbomb sounds like a film the Syfy channel would make, and they've made films like Sharknado.
I believe weatherbomb came from the Met Office.
They also believe in Global Warming, so you can tell they are silly sausages.
*Innocent Face*
I think the preferred technical term is "explosive cyclogenesis".
We really should stop Americans ruining our language.
0 -
The winners here are the people that believe in transparency towards criminal activity. Those behind the torture regime have had their reputations destroyed, and rightfully so. I only hope that the US will now investigate those responsible for this criminal activity. Sadly, Obama is not doing so, which is the greatest mistake he's made in office.taffys said:In fact, the way they see it, by investigating the CIA, Obama and the Democrats have struck a blow for Al Queda.
Whichever side you are on, Al Qaeda is undoubtedly the winner here.0 -
Inception has the best soundtrack!TCPoliticalBetting said:
Gattaca has the best sound track.Plato said:Pah, Galaxy Quest
TCPoliticalBetting said:
Pah GattacaPlato said:Pah, Total Recall.
Sunil_Prasannan said:
The best Sci-Fi film ever!Casino_Royale said:
Reminds me a bit of the Wrath of Khan.TheScreamingEagles said:
I like the term explosive cyclogenesis.OblitusSumMe said:
Oh no. That terminology started in America... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomb_(meteorology) with an article in a journal of the American Meteorological Society by a pair of MIT scientists.TheScreamingEagles said:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, I must concur. 'Weatherbomb' is ridiculous.
Weatherbomb sounds like a film the Syfy channel would make, and they've made films like Sharknado.
I believe weatherbomb came from the Met Office.
They also believe in Global Warming, so you can tell they are silly sausages.
*Innocent Face*
I think the preferred technical term is "explosive cyclogenesis".
We really should stop Americans ruining our language.0 -
John Carpenter's The Thing.Socrates said:
Alien.Plato said:Pah, Total Recall.
Sunil_Prasannan said:
The best Sci-Fi film ever!Casino_Royale said:
Reminds me a bit of the Wrath of Khan.TheScreamingEagles said:
I like the term explosive cyclogenesis.OblitusSumMe said:
Oh no. That terminology started in America... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomb_(meteorology) with an article in a journal of the American Meteorological Society by a pair of MIT scientists.TheScreamingEagles said:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, I must concur. 'Weatherbomb' is ridiculous.
Weatherbomb sounds like a film the Syfy channel would make, and they've made films like Sharknado.
I believe weatherbomb came from the Met Office.
They also believe in Global Warming, so you can tell they are silly sausages.
*Innocent Face*
I think the preferred technical term is "explosive cyclogenesis".
We really should stop Americans ruining our language.0 -
2001 is certainly better than Close Encounters, but the best SF film is Ridley Scott's Bladerunner.antifrank said:Best science fiction film of all time is undoubtedly Close Encounters Of The Third Kind.
Anyone who mentions 2001 will have a monolith put where no simian should encounter monolith.0 -
LlG.Flightpath said:
I was about to say that people with TLAs never become leaders. But than I remembered FDR and then JFK.TheScreamingEagles said:
So I'm glad I didn't.
0 -
Balderdash.antifrank said:Best science fiction film of all time is undoubtedly Close Encounters Of The Third Kind.
Anyone who mentions 2001 will have a monolith put where no simian should encounter monolith.
I rewatched 2001 at the cinema a few weeks ago.
Whilst Wrath of Khan is the best scifi film ever, 2001 and the Avengers Assemble are a close second.
I'm pb's resident geek. I know what I'm talking about.0 -
Thanks very much (sorry, TVM!)Socrates said:
ThreeSunil_Prasannan said:
Um, what's a TLA?rcs1000 said:
People with TLAs tend to die in office, so IDS had a lucky escape.Flightpath said:
I was about to say that people with TLAs never become leaders. But than I remembered FDR and then JFK.TheScreamingEagles said:
So I'm glad I didn't.
Letter
Acronym0 -
I don't think anyone is arguing that immigration cannot be a very positive thing for the host nation. It is the scale and scope that can be damaging and taking, as Barnesian suggests, a hard-headed cost-benefit approach will reduce or eliminate that damage.TOPPING said:
Well done you for reading the thing through.Barnesian said:Socrates
The analysis you linked me to is fascinating.
The authors point out that immigrants bring with them the benefit of their education paid for by their home country. They estimate this amounts to £49 billion over 1995-2011. This is not included in their calculation in table 6.
They also say "In our analysis we consider immigrants’ children under the age of 16 as immigrants regardless of birth country but classify as natives everyone who is at least
16 and UK born, regardless of parents’ birthplace. This choice, it should be noted,
suggests that we are neglecting the contribution that these the children of immigrants
will make when they enter the labour market. [But they are counting their cost of education] Likewise, we are neglecting the costs of educating the immigrants themselves, which – other than the cost of educating thenative born workforce – has been borne not by British taxpayers but by taxpayers in the origin country. [The £49 billion referred to above].
Thus, while assigning to immigrants the cost of educating their
UK-born children, we are unable to assign to them the benefits that their children will
bring after leaving the education system and entering the labour market. In this sense,
all the results presented below are underestimates of immigrants’ net fiscal
contribution."
So overall their paper strongly suggests a net positive economic impact of immigration.
From your remarks I suspect that we both believe that immigration should be better managed by taking a more hard-headed cost benefit approach. However I am not emotionally engaged in the debate and would probably put the optimal net immigration target somewhat higher than you. I don't have a figure in mind.
I think several studies have concluded that immigration is a (perhaps small) net positive to the host nation in terms of increased return on capital (as wages fall) and expanded GDP but that there is a section of the host population (namely those where there is competition with immigrants for jobs) which lose out immediately.
It is for these people that presumably the Kippers are standing up.
IMO they are not doing a very good job at articulating the actual dynamics involved, but then neither are the other parties.
I'm not sure of the political implications of saying something along the lines of: "you may have lost your job but don't worry it's for the greater good and anyway, when your ex-boss builds a new factory you may get a job there."
Probably not wildly positive.0 -
I was shocked to find out what the acronym NORWICH stood for.0
-
Star Wars
That is all.0 -
Richardo Monteban will be forever the owner of Fantasy Island with Tatu?TheScreamingEagles said:
Balderdash.antifrank said:Best science fiction film of all time is undoubtedly Close Encounters Of The Third Kind.
Anyone who mentions 2001 will have a monolith put where no simian should encounter monolith.
I rewatched 2001 at the cinema a few weeks ago.
Whilst Wrath of Khan is the best scifi film ever, 2001 and the Avengers Assemble are a close second.
I'm pb's resident geek. I know what I'm talking about.0 -
One of the truly great scifi films is on BBC2 this Saturday.
Forbidden Planet.0 -
I can see the argument, Frank, but there is ample evidence that Bush and his advisers were dismissive of Blair. His influence was negligible.antifrank said:
The counter-factual is a Britain that decided that it would behave broadly as Germany and France did. Would that have been better? With the benefit of hindsight, I think the answer is clearly yes.Peter_the_Punter said:
It doesn't make it worse, Socco, just confirms what we knew already.Socrates said:And I thought his legacy couldn't get any worse:
Tony Blair knew in detail about the CIA’s secret kidnap and interrogation programme after the September 11 attacks, a security source has told The Telegraph, the newspaper reported.
The then prime minster and Jack Straw, his foreign secretary, were kept informed “every step of the way” by MI6 and were shown Bush administration legal opinions that declared “enhanced interrogation” techniques such as waterboarding and stress positions to be legal, the source said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tony-blair-knew-everything-about-cia-interrogation-programme-9241863.html
Blair's major failing was a blind allegiance to the US. It didn't work out too bad whilst Clinton was in the Oval Office, but when Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld moved in he was locked in to supporting a disastrous administration, more or less regardless of its policies and without any influence over them.
Whether he approved of the torture or not, he would have been powerless to do anything about it. I suppose therefore he just shrugged and decided there was nothing he could do about it.
But in defence of Tony Blair (words I rarely write), he and the Foreign Office presumably formed the view that someone had to act as a restraining influence on the US, or the world looked as though it would come under the sway of a unipolar hyperpower that paid no regard to the previously established rules of international law. Britain was uniquely well-placed to play that role.
Imagine a world where the USA had invaded Iraq by itself and the later reconstruction had been more of a success. Do you think that it would have stopped there?
Tony Blair sought to stabilise the world by tempering American passions, and did so at the expense of his own integrity, lying to get the nation's support of the invasion. Yet it proved to be unnecessary. In many ways, it is a story worthy of a Shakespearean tragedy.
He may of course have had the best of intentions, and been disappointed to find how little impact his views had. In hindsite, it is obvious. But he was wrong, badly wrong, and his foreign policy in the post-Clinton years looks worse and worse with the passage of time.0 -
Overrated nonsense with a decent twist in Empire.Scott_P said:Star Wars
That is all.
But George Lucas ruined my childhood with his special editions.
Han fired first your bearded tosspot.
And the less said about episodes I to III0 -
Strictly speaking it should be KORWICH?TheScreamingEagles said:I was shocked to find out what the acronym NORWICH stood for.
0 -
Phonetically it is Norwich.ThomasNashe said:
Strictly speaking it should be KORWICH?TheScreamingEagles said:I was shocked to find out what the acronym NORWICH stood for.
0 -
Have you seen the George Lucas Special Edition trailer for VII?TheScreamingEagles said:
But George Lucas ruined my childhood with his special editions.
Awesome.0 -
Cue conversation about that fact that Knickers is spelled with a "K" and whether the use of Norwich would contravene the Post Office Telecommunications Act and if so how should the Bishop of Norwich sign a telegram.TheScreamingEagles said:I was shocked to find out what the acronym NORWICH stood for.
0 -
The numbers who died at the hands of the Gestapo or the Japanese security services were many orders of magnitude greater than those who died at the hands of the CIA, so I don't think it's worth comparing them.
That doesn't alter the fact that this report has revealed a scandal.0 -
That is a good one.TheScreamingEagles said:One of the truly great scifi films is on BBC2 this Saturday.
Forbidden Planet.
I'm one of the very few people who enjoyed David Lynch's version of Dune.
0 -
Never saw the movie, but the board game is a great multi-player derivation of the books.Sean_F said:
That is a good one.TheScreamingEagles said:One of the truly great scifi films is on BBC2 this Saturday.
Forbidden Planet.
I'm one of the very few people who enjoyed David Lynch's version of Dune.
0 -
Indeed. A scandal which shames America and which will be used by IS and others to justify/excuse their own brutality.Sean_F said:
The numbers who died at the hands of the Gestapo or the Japanese security services were many orders of magnitude greater than those who died at the hands of the CIA, so I don't think it's worth comparing them.
That doesn't alter the fact that this report has revealed a scandal.
Not just morally wrong but stupid too.
0 -
New thread.0
-
Terminator (x3) for me0
-
I enjoyed that game too. Like most multi-player games it suffered from the problem of being able to get enough people together, with sufficient supplies of alcohol, long enough to play it to a finish but it was great fun.NickPalmer said:
Never saw the movie, but the board game is a great multi-player derivation of the books.Sean_F said:
That is a good one.TheScreamingEagles said:One of the truly great scifi films is on BBC2 this Saturday.
Forbidden Planet.
I'm one of the very few people who enjoyed David Lynch's version of Dune.
I re-read the book quite recently too and was surprised just how good it was.0 -
Donnie Darko is also up there.0
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