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This is what having momentum looks like – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,027
edited August 4 in General
imageThis is what having momentum looks like – politicalbetting.com

NEW: Kamala Harris has wiped out Donald Trump’s lead across 7 battleground states, as she rides a wave of enthusiasm w/suburban women, young + Black voters.Harris was backed by 48% of voters to 47% for Trump — a statistical dead heat: https://t.co/9Lg4ZtMujH

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 27,325
    First as Harris will be come November
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,897
    Second like Trump
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,468
    As Hyufd rightly pointed out on the last thread though, on those numbers it would come down to Georgia, which you would guess would lean Republican at this moment.

    Of course, if Harris can sustain this momentum and Vance and Trump continue to spout mindless bullshit then the Republicans may unravel further. But the path remains narrow.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,435
    fpt
    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cicero said:

    Just a brief comment re: the Helter Skelter nonsense put out by a couple of posters last night.
    This site used to be a go to for partisan but informed debate. Reasonably knock about but the point is that it was reasonable and often very well informed. The comments last night were not acceptable. As now seems clear, the fascist right went to Southport for a paddy outside a Mosque. This is not politics, it was crime.
    Those talking about "sending them back" here last night fell into a very nasty, far right, rabbit hole for which there was little to no justification.
    Several long time posters are leaving PB because self indulgent egoists hijack threads and either genuinely post or assume a pose of supporting, nakedly racist or otherwise anti democratic crap. The site is becoming an unreadable parody of itself as a result.
    I would miss the old place, and appreciate the work RCS and TSE have done since the sad retirement of OGH, but unless these posters moderate themselves or get moderated, and quickly, then repeated unreadable threads will do their own work. Perhaps some may say it was some kind of joke, but it's a pretty sick joke when kids die and you are echoing EDL racist talking points.

    Oh you're the PB police guy, right?

    Just tell people they're being idiots and why, rather than trying to ban everything. I have no doubt your rhetorical skills are up to the job.
    No he's saying that some of the posters are potentially going to drive him (having already driven many other former posters) from this site.

    and I really didn't like having to point out the racist undertones many posters revealed themselves to have last night..
    Fair enough then let him leave.

    It's perfectly legitimate to be racist. Indicative of a failure of intelligence, of logic, of fear or of something else, all of which can helpfully be explained if anyone can be bothered. I began a reply to eg Leon yesterday but realised I couldn't be bothered in this instance.

    I have been bothered several times before, however, and Leon, probably also by his own admission, benefits from when people can be bothered to tell him what an arse he's being.

    @cicero should try that approach. Or indeed leave the site I'm sure he will be missed. Or perhaps not.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,468
    Incidentally I see Ismail Haniyeh had an unfortunate accident overnight in Tehran.

    Oh dear, how sad. Never mind.

    Equally, that will infuriate the Iranians and they may order Hezbollah to step up their attacks.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,468
    Foxy said:

    Kamala is surprising me.

    A far better campaigner than I remember.

    Trump will have a mega sulk when he loses to her.

    He can enjoy a long sulk in a Georgian prison when he finally gets locked up for at least one of his crimes.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,264
    Well calculated to wind up Trump.

    Vice President Harris: Donald, I do hope you'll reconsider to meet me on the debate stage. As the saying goes, if you got something to say, say it to my face
    https://x.com/KamalaHQ/status/1818431471482282010
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,587
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Kamala is surprising me.

    A far better campaigner than I remember.

    Trump will have a mega sulk when he loses to her.

    He can enjoy a long sulk in a Georgian prison when he finally gets locked up for at least one of his crimes.
    Are you saying "orange is the new black"?
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,755
    I said it the other day but I don’t think this will end up close. Trump doesn’t know how to deal with Harris. He has little positive to offer, now appears as old and stale as he is and has picked a ruinous veep candidate.

    The big question will be how far this affects down ballot races.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,264
    This is also momentum.

    July 20, -6%
    July 27, -15%
    https://x.com/Jemsinger/status/1818445807948910945
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 26,948
    Josh Shapiro odds-on for Kamala's running mate.

    While shredding some papers this morning, I came across an article from the Bush days suggesting a flurry of late Wikipedia edits could be predictive, and on that basis, Shapiro has about a page's worth over the past two days; more than Kelly and Beshear; but Tim Walz is up there. (Although even as I type this, I can see Walz's price drifting on Betfair so someone thinks it is all over.)

    Oddschecker shows 10/11 Shapiro in places but sfaict this is stale information and they have taken the markets down.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,468
    Nigelb said:

    This is also momentum.

    July 20, -6%
    July 27, -15%
    https://x.com/Jemsinger/status/1818445807948910945

    Or reverse thrust even
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,332
    ...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,264
    ydoethur said:

    As Hyufd rightly pointed out on the last thread though, on those numbers it would come down to Georgia, which you would guess would lean Republican at this moment.

    Of course, if Harris can sustain this momentum and Vance and Trump continue to spout mindless bullshit then the Republicans may unravel further. But the path remains narrow.

    Looking at the Harris rally in Georgia last night, I wouldn't assume that at all.

    I'd say it's a toss up.

    I'd put money in it - except the odds are currently a bit shorter than those available on Harris herself.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 79,996
    All that talk of Trump survives an assassination attempt = nailed on to win seems a distant memory.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,812
    Note on the RCP national popular vote average Trump still is ahead by 2% over Harris.
    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-harris

    Yet Harris now leads Trump by 2% on average in Michigan, Trump leads by just 0.2% in Wisconsin and Trump leads by 2.7% in Pennsylvania. So it is perfectly possible Trump could now win the popular vote but lose the EC this year, indeed if Harris picked Pennsylvania Governor Shapiro as her VP pick then on the Bloomberg swing states polls that might be the likeliest outcome

    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/michigan/trump-vs-harris
    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/wisconsin/trump-vs-harris
    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/pennsylvania/trump-vs-harris
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,468

    I said it the other day but I don’t think this will end up close. Trump doesn’t know how to deal with Harris. He has little positive to offer, now appears as old and stale as he is and has picked a ruinous veep candidate.

    The big question will be how far this affects down ballot races.

    Would be funny if the Dems could hold Ohio and Montana while flipping one of Florida or Texas.

    Holding the Senate is of course critical to making sure that when the older MAGA loons retire from SCOTUS (or snuff it) they aren’t replaced by mini-mes.

    Or for that matter Sotomayer.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,530
    Nigelb said:

    This is also momentum.

    July 20, -6%
    July 27, -15%
    https://x.com/Jemsinger/status/1818445807948910945

    What's the reverse of an ad-Vance?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,315

    All that talk of Trump survives an assassination attempt = nailed on to win seems a distant memory.

    I did point out at the time that Gerald Ford survived two assassination attempts and still lost the election.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,264
    The Harris campaign is addressing the for them awkward issue of the border head on.

    https://x.com/KamalaHQ/status/1818414386362409091

    "Donald Trump is trying to avoid going to prison."
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 58,998

    All that talk of Trump survives an assassination attempt = nailed on to win seems a distant memory.

    As some of us said at the time.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,899
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Harris still has work to do on those figures.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,011
    edited July 31
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    As Hyufd rightly pointed out on the last thread though, on those numbers it would come down to Georgia, which you would guess would lean Republican at this moment.

    Of course, if Harris can sustain this momentum and Vance and Trump continue to spout mindless bullshit then the Republicans may unravel further. But the path remains narrow.

    Looking at the Harris rally in Georgia last night, I wouldn't assume that at all.

    I'd say it's a toss up.

    I'd put money in it - except the odds are currently a bit shorter than those available on Harris herself.
    Yes - I think Harris has got a bounce that has pulled the race back to 50/50. Which is more than I thought she would get.

    Biden was on 45/55 and heading down.

    EDIT: either of Kelly or Shapiro would not be a drag on the ticket. Unlike Vance. The value of the VP pick in a positive, rather than negative way, is often overstated. Harris is in a good position here - a couple of good, solid candidates.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,468
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    As Hyufd rightly pointed out on the last thread though, on those numbers it would come down to Georgia, which you would guess would lean Republican at this moment.

    Of course, if Harris can sustain this momentum and Vance and Trump continue to spout mindless bullshit then the Republicans may unravel further. But the path remains narrow.

    Looking at the Harris rally in Georgia last night, I wouldn't assume that at all.

    I'd say it's a toss up.

    I'd put money in it - except the odds are currently a bit shorter than those available on Harris herself.
    Georgia is a state where the Republicans have made vast efforts to rig the vote. Closing polling stations in Democratic areas, refusing to allow people in queues to have food and water, complicating the registration process.

    This is one reason why Trump was not only very shocked at losing but thought Kemp would just find him some more votes so he could claim a win.

    Stacey Abrams led a Democratic machine that thwarted these moves by Herculean efforts in 2020, but she will need to be at least as good again.

    That said, one unknown is how Kemp will react to Trump not only dragging his efforts into the limelight but then trying to have him primaried. He may be less eager to manipulate things for Trump than he was four years ago.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,530
    Nigelb said:

    Well calculated to wind up Trump.

    Vice President Harris: Donald, I do hope you'll reconsider to meet me on the debate stage. As the saying goes, if you got something to say, say it to my face
    https://x.com/KamalaHQ/status/1818431471482282010

    Harris speaks there to a packed venue of 10,000.

  • Re Harris. Its all a bit redolent of the Cleggasm in 2010.

    This is a honeymoon period. She may win but things will turn to her policies come September.

  • TazTaz Posts: 13,384
    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cicero said:

    Just a brief comment re: the Helter Skelter nonsense put out by a couple of posters last night.
    This site used to be a go to for partisan but informed debate. Reasonably knock about but the point is that it was reasonable and often very well informed. The comments last night were not acceptable. As now seems clear, the fascist right went to Southport for a paddy outside a Mosque. This is not politics, it was crime.
    Those talking about "sending them back" here last night fell into a very nasty, far right, rabbit hole for which there was little to no justification.
    Several long time posters are leaving PB because self indulgent egoists hijack threads and either genuinely post or assume a pose of supporting, nakedly racist or otherwise anti democratic crap. The site is becoming an unreadable parody of itself as a result.
    I would miss the old place, and appreciate the work RCS and TSE have done since the sad retirement of OGH, but unless these posters moderate themselves or get moderated, and quickly, then repeated unreadable threads will do their own work. Perhaps some may say it was some kind of joke, but it's a pretty sick joke when kids die and you are echoing EDL racist talking points.

    Oh you're the PB police guy, right?

    Just tell people they're being idiots and why, rather than trying to ban everything. I have no doubt your rhetorical skills are up to the job.
    No he's saying that some of the posters are potentially going to drive him (having already driven many other former posters) from this site.

    and I really didn't like having to point out the racist undertones many posters revealed themselves to have last night..
    Fair enough then let him leave.

    It's perfectly legitimate to be racist. Indicative of a failure of intelligence, of logic, of fear or of something else, all of which can helpfully be explained if anyone can be bothered. I began a reply to eg Leon yesterday but realised I couldn't be bothered in this instance.

    I have been bothered several times before, however, and Leon, probably also by his own admission, benefits from when people can be bothered to tell him what an arse he's being.

    @cicero should try that approach. Or indeed leave the site I'm sure he will be missed. Or perhaps not.
    Who cares if people go or stay. Most of us don’t know each other in real life anyway. I doubt I would be missed and I doubt most people would be missed. Life and the group would just go on.

    Last night was interesting. Didn’t show the site at its best, but it is a very contentious issue and little children being murdered is bound to be emotive.

    However the term racism is somewhat Elastic. Eek and Bart were screaming racist at anyone who dared to disagree with them or their worldview. But that is a modern phenomenon and not just when it comes to race but also to other minority issues. Farooq cited racism when he left but that was down to Gaza.

    I would say only a couple of posts at most were crossing the line and I doubt anyone here is a racist either. No one got banned. The posts the day the footage came out of the lads battering Plod at the airport was far more contentious and ban hammer came out.

    People come, people go. Let them. The membership of any online group is fluid. As for why people leave unless they specifically say we don’t know. Some people simply decide why they left to advance their own hobby horse and project.



  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,393
    Kudos to Israel for getting the leader of Hamas.

    I'm sure all those Israel-critics who are saying they think Israel has a right to self-defence in theory but shouldn't be fighting Hamas in Palestine and should instead take the fight to the leaders of Hamas abroad will be lining up to congratulate Israel for what they have done overnight . . .
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,384

    Re Harris. Its all a bit redolent of the Cleggasm in 2010.

    This is a honeymoon period. She may win but things will turn to her policies come September.

    She has certainly lit a fire under the Democrats. The test will be her policies. I suspect she will not be found wanting. I also expect her to have a better policy platform than the Trumpdozer.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,011

    All that talk of Trump survives an assassination attempt = nailed on to win seems a distant memory.

    I did point out at the time that Gerald Ford survived two assassination attempts and still lost the election.
    And Teddy Roosevelt survived an assassination in a way that Hollywood would refuse to put in a B movie.

    Coughed to check that a lung wasn’t hit. Confronted his attacker. Then gave the rest of his speech with the bullet still in him.

    Then lost the election.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,995

    Re Harris. Its all a bit redolent of the Cleggasm in 2010.

    This is a honeymoon period. She may win but things will turn to her policies come September.

    Yes, I'm a bit worried that this might all fall away. However, the Dems are undoubtedly in a better position now that they were a few weeks ago. They needed to make a change and they have.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,530
    HYUFD said:

    Note on the RCP national popular vote average Trump still is ahead by 2% over Harris.
    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-harris

    Yet Harris now leads Trump by 2% on average in Michigan, Trump leads by just 0.2% in Wisconsin and Trump leads by 2.7% in Pennsylvania. So it is perfectly possible Trump could now win the popular vote but lose the EC this year, indeed if Harris picked Pennsylvania Governor Shapiro as her VP pick then on the Bloomberg swing states polls that might be the likeliest outcome

    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/michigan/trump-vs-harris
    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/wisconsin/trump-vs-harris
    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/pennsylvania/trump-vs-harris

    You are out of date on Pennsylvania - Susquehanna Polling in a poll released yesterday has her up by 4% there:

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4800420-harris-lead-pennsylvania-casey-mccormick-poll/
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,315

    Re Harris. Its all a bit redolent of the Cleggasm in 2010.

    This is a honeymoon period. She may win but things will turn to her policies come September.

    So she's going to be in government after the election, I think she and all right thinking people everywhere will take that.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,332
    I don't know if Harris can win, but the MAGA meltdown she has caused so far is sublime
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,011
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    As Hyufd rightly pointed out on the last thread though, on those numbers it would come down to Georgia, which you would guess would lean Republican at this moment.

    Of course, if Harris can sustain this momentum and Vance and Trump continue to spout mindless bullshit then the Republicans may unravel further. But the path remains narrow.

    Looking at the Harris rally in Georgia last night, I wouldn't assume that at all.

    I'd say it's a toss up.

    I'd put money in it - except the odds are currently a bit shorter than those available on Harris herself.
    Watching political rallies, especially American style ones, doesn’t tell you much. Packing the front of the audience with the loudest supporters, flags… it’s all orchestrated to the nth degree.

    Unless the candidate is penniless or a complete moron.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,899
    Nigelb said:

    The Harris campaign is addressing the for them awkward issue of the border head on.

    https://x.com/KamalaHQ/status/1818414386362409091

    "Donald Trump is trying to avoid going to prison."

    Not entirely convinced by this ad. The first part is fair enough where they point to how Trump blocked various measures. Claiming Harris will be the one to fix the broken immigration system when she didn't the last time (even though strictly speaking it wasn't her job), less so.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,198
    This surge in both enthusiasm and support has just about got Harris back to evens. It is a vivid demonstration of how Biden was sleep walking to defeat.

    But it is still incredibly tight. If Harris can get a boost from a good VP choice (unlike Trump) and really deliver at her Party Conference (unlike Trump) it may become less so. But we are still in the land of maybes.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,439

    Re Harris. Its all a bit redolent of the Cleggasm in 2010.

    This is a honeymoon period. She may win but things will turn to her policies come September.

    So she's going to be in government after the election, I think she and all right thinking people everywhere will take that.
    With a bit of luck Trump will implode and take with him some of the more worrying GOP aspects.
  • Taz said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cicero said:

    Just a brief comment re: the Helter Skelter nonsense put out by a couple of posters last night.
    This site used to be a go to for partisan but informed debate. Reasonably knock about but the point is that it was reasonable and often very well informed. The comments last night were not acceptable. As now seems clear, the fascist right went to Southport for a paddy outside a Mosque. This is not politics, it was crime.
    Those talking about "sending them back" here last night fell into a very nasty, far right, rabbit hole for which there was little to no justification.
    Several long time posters are leaving PB because self indulgent egoists hijack threads and either genuinely post or assume a pose of supporting, nakedly racist or otherwise anti democratic crap. The site is becoming an unreadable parody of itself as a result.
    I would miss the old place, and appreciate the work RCS and TSE have done since the sad retirement of OGH, but unless these posters moderate themselves or get moderated, and quickly, then repeated unreadable threads will do their own work. Perhaps some may say it was some kind of joke, but it's a pretty sick joke when kids die and you are echoing EDL racist talking points.

    Oh you're the PB police guy, right?

    Just tell people they're being idiots and why, rather than trying to ban everything. I have no doubt your rhetorical skills are up to the job.
    No he's saying that some of the posters are potentially going to drive him (having already driven many other former posters) from this site.

    and I really didn't like having to point out the racist undertones many posters revealed themselves to have last night..
    Fair enough then let him leave.

    It's perfectly legitimate to be racist. Indicative of a failure of intelligence, of logic, of fear or of something else, all of which can helpfully be explained if anyone can be bothered. I began a reply to eg Leon yesterday but realised I couldn't be bothered in this instance.

    I have been bothered several times before, however, and Leon, probably also by his own admission, benefits from when people can be bothered to tell him what an arse he's being.

    @cicero should try that approach. Or indeed leave the site I'm sure he will be missed. Or perhaps not.
    Who cares if people go or stay. Most of us don’t know each other in real life anyway. I doubt I would be missed and I doubt most people would be missed. Life and the group would just go on.

    Last night was interesting. Didn’t show the site at its best, but it is a very contentious issue and little children being murdered is bound to be emotive.

    However the term racism is somewhat Elastic. Eek and Bart were screaming racist at anyone who dared to disagree with them or their worldview. But that is a modern phenomenon and not just when it comes to race but also to other minority issues. Farooq cited racism when he left but that was down to Gaza.

    I would say only a couple of posts at most were crossing the line and I doubt anyone here is a racist either. No one got banned. The posts the day the footage came out of the lads battering Plod at the airport was far more contentious and ban hammer came out.

    People come, people go. Let them. The membership of any online group is fluid. As for why people leave unless they specifically say we don’t know. Some people simply decide why they left to advance their own hobby horse and project.



    The value of the place is that you have to read and defend your own posts against those who diametrically oppose what you say (and often know a lot about partucular fields). Not a silo where everyone agrees with a "constitutional" set of views (unlike most places online).

    You also have to be able to debate - ie make your case, again rare on t'internet

    Once you go into ad-hom mode shouting Racist or whatever you are losing. (When people do cross the line then they get banned)
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,279

    All that talk of Trump survives an assassination attempt = nailed on to win seems a distant memory.

    The Dems planned it to perfection. Try and take him out, if it doesn’t work then blow it from the news cycle by substituting Joe with Kamala.
  • boulay said:

    All that talk of Trump survives an assassination attempt = nailed on to win seems a distant memory.

    The Dems planned it to perfection. Try and take him out, if it doesn’t work then blow it from the news cycle by substituting Joe with Kamala.
    The assasination was a Dem plot?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,899
    edited July 31
    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cicero said:

    Just a brief comment re: the Helter Skelter nonsense put out by a couple of posters last night.
    This site used to be a go to for partisan but informed debate. Reasonably knock about but the point is that it was reasonable and often very well informed. The comments last night were not acceptable. As now seems clear, the fascist right went to Southport for a paddy outside a Mosque. This is not politics, it was crime.
    Those talking about "sending them back" here last night fell into a very nasty, far right, rabbit hole for which there was little to no justification.
    Several long time posters are leaving PB because self indulgent egoists hijack threads and either genuinely post or assume a pose of supporting, nakedly racist or otherwise anti democratic crap. The site is becoming an unreadable parody of itself as a result.
    I would miss the old place, and appreciate the work RCS and TSE have done since the sad retirement of OGH, but unless these posters moderate themselves or get moderated, and quickly, then repeated unreadable threads will do their own work. Perhaps some may say it was some kind of joke, but it's a pretty sick joke when kids die and you are echoing EDL racist talking points.

    Oh you're the PB police guy, right?

    Just tell people they're being idiots and why, rather than trying to ban everything. I have no doubt your rhetorical skills are up to the job.
    No he's saying that some of the posters are potentially going to drive him (having already driven many other former posters) from this site.

    and I really didn't like having to point out the racist undertones many posters revealed themselves to have last night..
    Fair enough then let him leave.

    It's perfectly legitimate to be racist. Indicative of a failure of intelligence, of logic, of fear or of something else, all of which can helpfully be explained if anyone can be bothered. I began a reply to eg Leon yesterday but realised I couldn't be bothered in this instance.

    I have been bothered several times before, however, and Leon, probably also by his own admission, benefits from when people can be bothered to tell him what an arse he's being.

    @cicero should try that approach. Or indeed leave the site I'm sure he will be missed. Or perhaps not.
    I preferred the discussion about porridge. It is at least a topic I and the others contributing to it know something about. We didn't have to reach for wild rumours and scurrilous accusations.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,198
    FF43 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Harris still has work to do on those figures.
    Those figures, specifically Pennsylvania, point to Shapiro being VP.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,035

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    As Hyufd rightly pointed out on the last thread though, on those numbers it would come down to Georgia, which you would guess would lean Republican at this moment.

    Of course, if Harris can sustain this momentum and Vance and Trump continue to spout mindless bullshit then the Republicans may unravel further. But the path remains narrow.

    Looking at the Harris rally in Georgia last night, I wouldn't assume that at all.

    I'd say it's a toss up.

    I'd put money in it - except the odds are currently a bit shorter than those available on Harris herself.
    Watching political rallies, especially American style ones, doesn’t tell you much. Packing the front of the audience with the loudest supporters, flags… it’s all orchestrated to the nth degree.

    Unless the candidate is penniless or a complete moron.
    Bonus points for putting on a pop concert before the political speaker, as Harris did last night.

    https://x.com/sav_says_/status/1818420983797354598
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,002
    Nigelb said:

    Well calculated to wind up Trump.

    Vice President Harris: Donald, I do hope you'll reconsider to meet me on the debate stage. As the saying goes, if you got something to say, say it to my face
    https://x.com/KamalaHQ/status/1818431471482282010

    I'm enjoying the trolling of Trump ok these lines. And calling him and Vance weird. Reminiscent of someone standing up to the biggest bully in school.

    Harris has a lot more energy and positivity in the way she speaks than was generally accepted wisdom 2 weeks ago.

    Trump is flailing in how to respond to her so far.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,530
    tlg86 said:

    Re Harris. Its all a bit redolent of the Cleggasm in 2010.

    This is a honeymoon period. She may win but things will turn to her policies come September.

    Yes, I'm a bit worried that this might all fall away. However, the Dems are undoubtedly in a better position now that they were a few weeks ago. They needed to make a change and they have.
    The $200m++ raised isn't going away (other than as ad spends to hack way at Trump's credibility).

    And I'd suggest the tsunami of supporters signing up for door-knocking aren't going to have buyers remorse between now and early November.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,530
    Ratters said:

    Nigelb said:

    Well calculated to wind up Trump.

    Vice President Harris: Donald, I do hope you'll reconsider to meet me on the debate stage. As the saying goes, if you got something to say, say it to my face
    https://x.com/KamalaHQ/status/1818431471482282010

    I'm enjoying the trolling of Trump ok these lines. And calling him and Vance weird. Reminiscent of someone standing up to the biggest bully in school.

    Harris has a lot more energy and positivity in the way she speaks than was generally accepted wisdom 2 weeks ago.

    Trump is flailing in how to respond to her so far.
    Difficult to teach on old racist new tricks...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 26,948

    Taz said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cicero said:

    Just a brief comment re: the Helter Skelter nonsense put out by a couple of posters last night.
    This site used to be a go to for partisan but informed debate. Reasonably knock about but the point is that it was reasonable and often very well informed. The comments last night were not acceptable. As now seems clear, the fascist right went to Southport for a paddy outside a Mosque. This is not politics, it was crime.
    Those talking about "sending them back" here last night fell into a very nasty, far right, rabbit hole for which there was little to no justification.
    Several long time posters are leaving PB because self indulgent egoists hijack threads and either genuinely post or assume a pose of supporting, nakedly racist or otherwise anti democratic crap. The site is becoming an unreadable parody of itself as a result.
    I would miss the old place, and appreciate the work RCS and TSE have done since the sad retirement of OGH, but unless these posters moderate themselves or get moderated, and quickly, then repeated unreadable threads will do their own work. Perhaps some may say it was some kind of joke, but it's a pretty sick joke when kids die and you are echoing EDL racist talking points.

    Oh you're the PB police guy, right?

    Just tell people they're being idiots and why, rather than trying to ban everything. I have no doubt your rhetorical skills are up to the job.
    No he's saying that some of the posters are potentially going to drive him (having already driven many other former posters) from this site.

    and I really didn't like having to point out the racist undertones many posters revealed themselves to have last night..
    Fair enough then let him leave.

    It's perfectly legitimate to be racist. Indicative of a failure of intelligence, of logic, of fear or of something else, all of which can helpfully be explained if anyone can be bothered. I began a reply to eg Leon yesterday but realised I couldn't be bothered in this instance.

    I have been bothered several times before, however, and Leon, probably also by his own admission, benefits from when people can be bothered to tell him what an arse he's being.

    @cicero should try that approach. Or indeed leave the site I'm sure he will be missed. Or perhaps not.
    Who cares if people go or stay. Most of us don’t know each other in real life anyway. I doubt I would be missed and I doubt most people would be missed. Life and the group would just go on.

    Last night was interesting. Didn’t show the site at its best, but it is a very contentious issue and little children being murdered is bound to be emotive.

    However the term racism is somewhat Elastic. Eek and Bart were screaming racist at anyone who dared to disagree with them or their worldview. But that is a modern phenomenon and not just when it comes to race but also to other minority issues. Farooq cited racism when he left but that was down to Gaza.

    I would say only a couple of posts at most were crossing the line and I doubt anyone here is a racist either. No one got banned. The posts the day the footage came out of the lads battering Plod at the airport was far more contentious and ban hammer came out.

    People come, people go. Let them. The membership of any online group is fluid. As for why people leave unless they specifically say we don’t know. Some people simply decide why they left to advance their own hobby horse and project.



    The value of the place is that you have to read and defend your own posts against those who diametrically oppose what you say (and often know a lot about partucular fields). Not a silo where everyone agrees with a "constitutional" set of views (unlike most places online).

    You also have to be able to debate - ie make your case, again rare on t'internet

    Once you go into ad-hom mode shouting Racist or whatever you are losing. (When people do cross the line then they get banned)
    The trouble is that even when not offensive it gets tedious for the rest of us reading page after page of Punch & Judy posts from the same two or three people making the same two or three points over and over and over again whether it be about houses or roads or migrants or murders. If you've typed the same thing three times in the past hour then FFS admit you will never persuade the other guy and just stop.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,435
    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cicero said:

    Just a brief comment re: the Helter Skelter nonsense put out by a couple of posters last night.
    This site used to be a go to for partisan but informed debate. Reasonably knock about but the point is that it was reasonable and often very well informed. The comments last night were not acceptable. As now seems clear, the fascist right went to Southport for a paddy outside a Mosque. This is not politics, it was crime.
    Those talking about "sending them back" here last night fell into a very nasty, far right, rabbit hole for which there was little to no justification.
    Several long time posters are leaving PB because self indulgent egoists hijack threads and either genuinely post or assume a pose of supporting, nakedly racist or otherwise anti democratic crap. The site is becoming an unreadable parody of itself as a result.
    I would miss the old place, and appreciate the work RCS and TSE have done since the sad retirement of OGH, but unless these posters moderate themselves or get moderated, and quickly, then repeated unreadable threads will do their own work. Perhaps some may say it was some kind of joke, but it's a pretty sick joke when kids die and you are echoing EDL racist talking points.

    Oh you're the PB police guy, right?

    Just tell people they're being idiots and why, rather than trying to ban everything. I have no doubt your rhetorical skills are up to the job.
    No he's saying that some of the posters are potentially going to drive him (having already driven many other former posters) from this site.

    and I really didn't like having to point out the racist undertones many posters revealed themselves to have last night..
    Fair enough then let him leave.

    It's perfectly legitimate to be racist. Indicative of a failure of intelligence, of logic, of fear or of something else, all of which can helpfully be explained if anyone can be bothered. I began a reply to eg Leon yesterday but realised I couldn't be bothered in this instance.

    I have been bothered several times before, however, and Leon, probably also by his own admission, benefits from when people can be bothered to tell him what an arse he's being.

    @cicero should try that approach. Or indeed leave the site I'm sure he will be missed. Or perhaps not.
    I preferred the discussion about porridge. It is at least a topic I and the others contributing to it know something about. We didn't have to reach for wild rumours and scurrilous accusations.
    Your kidding, right.

    I would have thought the salt vs sugar debate would make the trans/Israel-Gaza arguments pale into insignificance.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,800

    Kudos to Israel for getting the leader of Hamas.

    I'm sure all those Israel-critics who are saying they think Israel has a right to self-defence in theory but shouldn't be fighting Hamas in Palestine and should instead take the fight to the leaders of Hamas abroad will be lining up to congratulate Israel for what they have done overnight . . .

    Yes. I am. Particularly as it was in Iran, the ultimate sponsor of all this.
  • ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    Y

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    FF43 said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    The new government will never have more goodwill than they do now, a month into a large majority.

    Yet they’ve actually been very timid with the annoucements, and made some basic errors such as cancelling infrastructure projects to pay for current spending, especially their old friends in the public sector unions.

    The 22% raise for those who already earn well above average wage comes across as particularly egregious, and will no doubt inspire other unions to ask for the same. A 22% offer that’s been described as derisory by the union involved, the leader of which does his best to come across as Arthur Scargill with a stethoscope.

    It's a curious set of infrastructure projects that have been cancelled because most of them were pie in sky crap (the restoring your railway ones) or could be argued to be ongoing expenditure (is it really investment if you are replacing an existing hospital)...

    You then have the very contentious A303 Stonehenge tunnel and an A27 scheme which the locals seem to actively hate...

    So I see a couple of political point scoring victories (A303,A27) hidden in the cost cutting there, a pile of populist crap (the restoring railways "projects") and a question over what is investment..
    I don’t know about the A27, but the A303 has been top of the agenda for at least three decades now, and the HS2 link to Euston leaves a white elephant of a line that no-one actually going to London is going to use except with promotional fares, and adds more human congestion to the reduced number of trains on the legacy main lines. The Thames crossing has already spend a quarter of a billion on paperwork, and don’t start me on Heathrow’s third runway.

    All of these should have been done a long, long time ago, and it’s disappointing to see a new government kick the can just as the last one did. And the one before that.
    Heathrow's third runway isn't a money issue - that would be paid for by Heathrow.

    As for HS2 - my opinion is that once it was designed it should have been built as is - but Euston should be being advertised as the 2/3 different projects it is so that people know where the money is going...
    I'm less concerned about delaying the final part to Euston (a) because I think they will do it eventually and (b) it doesn't invalidate the rest of the line.

    Much play is made that people don't want to journey to Old Oak Common. But they mostly don't want to go to Euston either. Almost everyone wants to go to a station in London and from there take local transport to their final destination. Old Oak Common fulfills that role as does Euston. A third of passengers would choose to get off at Old Oak Common anyway, it's marginal for many of the rest and almost everyone will make the trip to Old Oak Common if that's where the station is. The main effect is to overload the Elizabeth Line.

    I'm a lot more concerned about the section to Crewe. If you don't put the capacity in to a similar specification as the southern part, it undermines the whole project.
    edit - you already made both my points further down..

    Isn't the Birmingham to Crewe bit the most economically viable part of the entire project?

    After that I thought it was the HSb (Eastern Leg) and then the bit to Manchester?
    Mm - define 'economically viable'.

    Birmingham to Crewe is certainly the least costly. But I'd say 'economically viable' would be your balance of costs and benefits. So:
    a) what benefits does the economic case of the business case say it delivers?
    b) does it deliver those if the other sections are not delivered?
    c) what about the other non-quantified benefits (which are in all likelihood greater than those which have been quantified) - e.g. regeneration benefits, e.g. capacity relief, e.g. sections which deliver parts of other proposed investments?


    Answer: it's complicated!


    Its not that complicated.

    If they don't build phase 2a to Crewe, six tracks (four Trent Valley and Two HS2) will converge on un grade separated Colwich Junction and two track Shugborough Tunnel.

    It's a total clusterfuck. That is such a pinchpoint that an upgrade to bypass it all was already planned before being canned when HS2 came along.
    Er, the Stone avoiding line diverges *before* Shugborough Tunnel. So it's four lines, not two, that operate there.

    It would still be a pinch point but not quite as bad a one as you think.
    Colwich is where the line to stoke on trent goes of and the WCML goes down to 2 track north of it through Shugborough Tunnel.

    All it carries is two of the Euston to Manchesters per hour (down trains thereof also conflict with up trains from Stafford at Colwich).

    If the "stone avoiding line" had a route back to the West Coast Main Line north of Stafford, you might have a point, but it dosent south of Crewe. Although the Stoke to Crewe Line being electrified in the last few years helps.
    It carries far more than 2tph at peak periods. More like 8 (or four each way).

    Also, if there were no crossover at Stone it couldn't carry trains to Stoke.

    I agree it would be better if it were grade separated, but your earlier claim of 'six tracks going down to two tracks' was simply daft.
    Eh?

    You can't go Colwich - Stone Avoiding line - back to WCML (before Crewe and slowly at any rate)

    It is basically a branch.

    The WCML is four track, then two HS2 tracks will join it a few miles before it becomes 2 track through Shugborough Tunnel.

    As to 4TPH in the peak service, to Stoke avoiding Stafford is still 2PH (3 tph from Manchester to Euton, but one goes via Wilmslow and Crewe).

    There is an extra Manchester to Euston via Stoke in the morning peak, but that goes via Stafford and Birmingham, same as all the Crosscountries (as did the London Midland Euston to Crewe via Stafford and Stoke before they decided to bypass Stoke and send it fast from Stafford to Crewe).
    Rail planning is one of those areas in which it is quite astonishing how many really quite knowledgeable people there are on here.
    Although they don't include that particular poster, who not only doesn't know the track layout but describes a line as 'basically a branch' before noting it takes fast services...
    Yeah, what the fuck would I know after a lifetime spent in the industry.

    Suggest you look up some easy to access publically available resources like then one below before talking out of the back of your head.

    https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/sta
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,851

    Re Harris. Its all a bit redolent of the Cleggasm in 2010.

    This is a honeymoon period. She may win but things will turn to her policies come September.

    One difference, of course, is that at the time of the Cleggasm, the Lib Dems did not have the technology set up to capture the support and get it organised on the ground.

    I have the feeling that Harris and the Democrats do.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,755

    Re Harris. Its all a bit redolent of the Cleggasm in 2010.

    This is a honeymoon period. She may win but things will turn to her policies come September.

    And it’s clear that her policies will scare folk less than the Project 2025 blueprint that Trump is desperately trying to detach himself from.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,558
    What ever happened to Momentum?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,800
    edited July 31
    I'm surprised our resident conspiracy theorist hasn't *enhanced* photographs of Trump's ear.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,279

    boulay said:

    All that talk of Trump survives an assassination attempt = nailed on to win seems a distant memory.

    The Dems planned it to perfection. Try and take him out, if it doesn’t work then blow it from the news cycle by substituting Joe with Kamala.
    The assasination was a Dem plot?
    Might not have been a serious post.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,360

    What ever happened to Momentum?

    They Won The Argument.

    Do Jeremy and the Independents coalesce into the pure purist party of their dreams?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,254

    What ever happened to Momentum?

    They Won The Argument.

    Do Jeremy and the Independents coalesce into the pure purist party of their dreams?
    QTWTAIN I think.
  • Taz said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cicero said:

    Just a brief comment re: the Helter Skelter nonsense put out by a couple of posters last night.
    This site used to be a go to for partisan but informed debate. Reasonably knock about but the point is that it was reasonable and often very well informed. The comments last night were not acceptable. As now seems clear, the fascist right went to Southport for a paddy outside a Mosque. This is not politics, it was crime.
    Those talking about "sending them back" here last night fell into a very nasty, far right, rabbit hole for which there was little to no justification.
    Several long time posters are leaving PB because self indulgent egoists hijack threads and either genuinely post or assume a pose of supporting, nakedly racist or otherwise anti democratic crap. The site is becoming an unreadable parody of itself as a result.
    I would miss the old place, and appreciate the work RCS and TSE have done since the sad retirement of OGH, but unless these posters moderate themselves or get moderated, and quickly, then repeated unreadable threads will do their own work. Perhaps some may say it was some kind of joke, but it's a pretty sick joke when kids die and you are echoing EDL racist talking points.

    Oh you're the PB police guy, right?

    Just tell people they're being idiots and why, rather than trying to ban everything. I have no doubt your rhetorical skills are up to the job.
    No he's saying that some of the posters are potentially going to drive him (having already driven many other former posters) from this site.

    and I really didn't like having to point out the racist undertones many posters revealed themselves to have last night..
    Fair enough then let him leave.

    It's perfectly legitimate to be racist. Indicative of a failure of intelligence, of logic, of fear or of something else, all of which can helpfully be explained if anyone can be bothered. I began a reply to eg Leon yesterday but realised I couldn't be bothered in this instance.

    I have been bothered several times before, however, and Leon, probably also by his own admission, benefits from when people can be bothered to tell him what an arse he's being.

    @cicero should try that approach. Or indeed leave the site I'm sure he will be missed. Or perhaps not.
    Who cares if people go or stay. Most of us don’t know each other in real life anyway. I doubt I would be missed and I doubt most people would be missed. Life and the group would just go on.

    Last night was interesting. Didn’t show the site at its best, but it is a very contentious issue and little children being murdered is bound to be emotive.

    However the term racism is somewhat Elastic. Eek and Bart were screaming racist at anyone who dared to disagree with them or their worldview. But that is a modern phenomenon and not just when it comes to race but also to other minority issues. Farooq cited racism when he left but that was down to Gaza.

    I would say only a couple of posts at most were crossing the line and I doubt anyone here is a racist either. No one got banned. The posts the day the footage came out of the lads battering Plod at the airport was far more contentious and ban hammer came out.

    People come, people go. Let them. The membership of any online group is fluid. As for why people leave unless they specifically say we don’t know. Some people simply decide why they left to advance their own hobby horse and project.



    The value of the place is that you have to read and defend your own posts against those who diametrically oppose what you say (and often know a lot about partucular fields). Not a silo where everyone agrees with a "constitutional" set of views (unlike most places online).

    You also have to be able to debate - ie make your case, again rare on t'internet

    Once you go into ad-hom mode shouting Racist or whatever you are losing. (When people do cross the line then they get banned)
    The trouble is that even when not offensive it gets tedious for the rest of us reading page after page of Punch & Judy posts from the same two or three people making the same two or three points over and over and over again whether it be about houses or roads or migrants or murders. If you've typed the same thing three times in the past hour then FFS admit you will never persuade the other guy and just stop.
    One thing I have learned since I left in 2016 is that you can make your point and leave it. You don't have to rebut every poster that rebuts you (let their post speak for itself and the readers make their own mind up. Also leave it a while and see what replies others make to said rebuttal. I sometimes still succomb though.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,254

    Re Harris. Its all a bit redolent of the Cleggasm in 2010.

    This is a honeymoon period. She may win but things will turn to her policies come September.

    And it’s clear that her policies will scare folk less than the Project 2025 blueprint that Trump is desperately trying to detach himself from.
    Hopefully independents who don't want to live in Gilead will see her home.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,812

    HYUFD said:

    Note on the RCP national popular vote average Trump still is ahead by 2% over Harris.
    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-harris

    Yet Harris now leads Trump by 2% on average in Michigan, Trump leads by just 0.2% in Wisconsin and Trump leads by 2.7% in Pennsylvania. So it is perfectly possible Trump could now win the popular vote but lose the EC this year, indeed if Harris picked Pennsylvania Governor Shapiro as her VP pick then on the Bloomberg swing states polls that might be the likeliest outcome

    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/michigan/trump-vs-harris
    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/wisconsin/trump-vs-harris
    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/pennsylvania/trump-vs-harris

    You are out of date on Pennsylvania - Susquehanna Polling in a poll released yesterday has her up by 4% there:

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4800420-harris-lead-pennsylvania-casey-mccormick-poll/
    That poll was taken over the same timeframe as the Bloomberg Pennsylvania poll which has Trump up 4% there.

    So overall it remains close there
  • boulay said:

    boulay said:

    All that talk of Trump survives an assassination attempt = nailed on to win seems a distant memory.

    The Dems planned it to perfection. Try and take him out, if it doesn’t work then blow it from the news cycle by substituting Joe with Kamala.
    The assasination was a Dem plot?
    Might not have been a serious post.
    Beware Poes law!
  • eekeek Posts: 27,325
    Taz said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cicero said:

    Just a brief comment re: the Helter Skelter nonsense put out by a couple of posters last night.
    This site used to be a go to for partisan but informed debate. Reasonably knock about but the point is that it was reasonable and often very well informed. The comments last night were not acceptable. As now seems clear, the fascist right went to Southport for a paddy outside a Mosque. This is not politics, it was crime.
    Those talking about "sending them back" here last night fell into a very nasty, far right, rabbit hole for which there was little to no justification.
    Several long time posters are leaving PB because self indulgent egoists hijack threads and either genuinely post or assume a pose of supporting, nakedly racist or otherwise anti democratic crap. The site is becoming an unreadable parody of itself as a result.
    I would miss the old place, and appreciate the work RCS and TSE have done since the sad retirement of OGH, but unless these posters moderate themselves or get moderated, and quickly, then repeated unreadable threads will do their own work. Perhaps some may say it was some kind of joke, but it's a pretty sick joke when kids die and you are echoing EDL racist talking points.

    Oh you're the PB police guy, right?

    Just tell people they're being idiots and why, rather than trying to ban everything. I have no doubt your rhetorical skills are up to the job.
    No he's saying that some of the posters are potentially going to drive him (having already driven many other former posters) from this site.

    and I really didn't like having to point out the racist undertones many posters revealed themselves to have last night..
    Fair enough then let him leave.

    It's perfectly legitimate to be racist. Indicative of a failure of intelligence, of logic, of fear or of something else, all of which can helpfully be explained if anyone can be bothered. I began a reply to eg Leon yesterday but realised I couldn't be bothered in this instance.

    I have been bothered several times before, however, and Leon, probably also by his own admission, benefits from when people can be bothered to tell him what an arse he's being.

    @cicero should try that approach. Or indeed leave the site I'm sure he will be missed. Or perhaps not.
    Who cares if people go or stay. Most of us don’t know each other in real life anyway. I doubt I would be missed and I doubt most people would be missed. Life and the group would just go on.

    Last night was interesting. Didn’t show the site at its best, but it is a very contentious issue and little children being murdered is bound to be emotive.

    However the term racism is somewhat Elastic. Eek and Bart were screaming racist at anyone who dared to disagree with them or their worldview. But that is a modern phenomenon and not just when it comes to race but also to other minority issues. Farooq cited racism when he left but that was down to Gaza.

    I would say only a couple of posts at most were crossing the line and I doubt anyone here is a racist either. No one got banned. The posts the day the footage came out of the lads battering Plod at the airport was far more contentious and ban hammer came out.

    People come, people go. Let them. The membership of any online group is fluid. As for why people leave unless they specifically say we don’t know. Some people simply decide why they left to advance their own hobby horse and project.



    Um, no I called out a poster for posting something that was a racist leap in logic. Now I like the poster but on that one issue he did show a side of him I wasn't expecting..
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,468
    edited July 31

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    Y

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    FF43 said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    The new government will never have more goodwill than they do now, a month into a large majority.

    Yet they’ve actually been very timid with the annoucements, and made some basic errors such as cancelling infrastructure projects to pay for current spending, especially their old friends in the public sector unions.

    The 22% raise for those who already earn well above average wage comes across as particularly egregious, and will no doubt inspire other unions to ask for the same. A 22% offer that’s been described as derisory by the union involved, the leader of which does his best to come across as Arthur Scargill with a stethoscope.

    It's a curious set of infrastructure projects that have been cancelled because most of them were pie in sky crap (the restoring your railway ones) or could be argued to be ongoing expenditure (is it really investment if you are replacing an existing hospital)...

    You then have the very contentious A303 Stonehenge tunnel and an A27 scheme which the locals seem to actively hate...

    So I see a couple of political point scoring victories (A303,A27) hidden in the cost cutting there, a pile of populist crap (the restoring railways "projects") and a question over what is investment..
    I don’t know about the A27, but the A303 has been top of the agenda for at least three decades now, and the HS2 link to Euston leaves a white elephant of a line that no-one actually going to London is going to use except with promotional fares, and adds more human congestion to the reduced number of trains on the legacy main lines. The Thames crossing has already spend a quarter of a billion on paperwork, and don’t start me on Heathrow’s third runway.

    All of these should have been done a long, long time ago, and it’s disappointing to see a new government kick the can just as the last one did. And the one before that.
    Heathrow's third runway isn't a money issue - that would be paid for by Heathrow.

    As for HS2 - my opinion is that once it was designed it should have been built as is - but Euston should be being advertised as the 2/3 different projects it is so that people know where the money is going...
    I'm less concerned about delaying the final part to Euston (a) because I think they will do it eventually and (b) it doesn't invalidate the rest of the line.

    Much play is made that people don't want to journey to Old Oak Common. But they mostly don't want to go to Euston either. Almost everyone wants to go to a station in London and from there take local transport to their final destination. Old Oak Common fulfills that role as does Euston. A third of passengers would choose to get off at Old Oak Common anyway, it's marginal for many of the rest and almost everyone will make the trip to Old Oak Common if that's where the station is. The main effect is to overload the Elizabeth Line.

    I'm a lot more concerned about the section to Crewe. If you don't put the capacity in to a similar specification as the southern part, it undermines the whole project.
    edit - you already made both my points further down..

    Isn't the Birmingham to Crewe bit the most economically viable part of the entire project?

    After that I thought it was the HSb (Eastern Leg) and then the bit to Manchester?
    Mm - define 'economically viable'.

    Birmingham to Crewe is certainly the least costly. But I'd say 'economically viable' would be your balance of costs and benefits. So:
    a) what benefits does the economic case of the business case say it delivers?
    b) does it deliver those if the other sections are not delivered?
    c) what about the other non-quantified benefits (which are in all likelihood greater than those which have been quantified) - e.g. regeneration benefits, e.g. capacity relief, e.g. sections which deliver parts of other proposed investments?


    Answer: it's complicated!


    Its not that complicated.

    If they don't build phase 2a to Crewe, six tracks (four Trent Valley and Two HS2) will converge on un grade separated Colwich Junction and two track Shugborough Tunnel.

    It's a total clusterfuck. That is such a pinchpoint that an upgrade to bypass it all was already planned before being canned when HS2 came along.
    Er, the Stone avoiding line diverges *before* Shugborough Tunnel. So it's four lines, not two, that operate there.

    It would still be a pinch point but not quite as bad a one as you think.
    Colwich is where the line to stoke on trent goes of and the WCML goes down to 2 track north of it through Shugborough Tunnel.

    All it carries is two of the Euston to Manchesters per hour (down trains thereof also conflict with up trains from Stafford at Colwich).

    If the "stone avoiding line" had a route back to the West Coast Main Line north of Stafford, you might have a point, but it dosent south of Crewe. Although the Stoke to Crewe Line being electrified in the last few years helps.
    It carries far more than 2tph at peak periods. More like 8 (or four each way).

    Also, if there were no crossover at Stone it couldn't carry trains to Stoke.

    I agree it would be better if it were grade separated, but your earlier claim of 'six tracks going down to two tracks' was simply daft.
    Eh?

    You can't go Colwich - Stone Avoiding line - back to WCML (before Crewe and slowly at any rate)

    It is basically a branch.

    The WCML is four track, then two HS2 tracks will join it a few miles before it becomes 2 track through Shugborough Tunnel.

    As to 4TPH in the peak service, to Stoke avoiding Stafford is still 2PH (3 tph from Manchester to Euton, but one goes via Wilmslow and Crewe).

    There is an extra Manchester to Euston via Stoke in the morning peak, but that goes via Stafford and Birmingham, same as all the Crosscountries (as did the London Midland Euston to Crewe via Stafford and Stoke before they decided to bypass Stoke and send it fast from Stafford to Crewe).
    Rail planning is one of those areas in which it is quite astonishing how many really quite knowledgeable people there are on here.
    Although they don't include that particular poster, who not only doesn't know the track layout but describes a line as 'basically a branch' before noting it takes fast services...
    Yeah, what the fuck would I know after a lifetime spent in the industry.

    Suggest you look up some easy to access publically available resources like then one below before talking out of the back of your head.

    https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/sta
    Or I could do what I do fairly frequently, living only a few miles away, and go and look at the track...

    Given your very strange pronouncements on the MML and HS2 I'm inclined to say the answer to your first question is 'not a lot,' if I'm honest.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,264

    Re Harris. Its all a bit redolent of the Cleggasm in 2010.

    This is a honeymoon period. She may win but things will turn to her policies come September.

    It's not really comparable.

    How many 10k seat stadiums did Clegg fill ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,812
    @tomhfh
    The average house price in Redcar is £164,115.

    The average house price in London is £693,969.

    Guess which has had their housing target cut, and which has seen their housing target balloon?

    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1818413582314352735
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,393
    Nigelb said:

    Re Harris. Its all a bit redolent of the Cleggasm in 2010.

    This is a honeymoon period. She may win but things will turn to her policies come September.

    It's not really comparable.

    How many 10k seat stadiums did Clegg fill ?
    If filling stadiums with loyal supporters won you elections then Trump would have won in 2020, and Britain's Trump (Jeremy Corbyn) would have won in 2017.

    Thankfully its every voter and not just the zealots in stadiums that choose the victor.

    Equally thankfully Kamala's support seems to be deep and showing in polls and not just stadia.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,435
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cicero said:

    Just a brief comment re: the Helter Skelter nonsense put out by a couple of posters last night.
    This site used to be a go to for partisan but informed debate. Reasonably knock about but the point is that it was reasonable and often very well informed. The comments last night were not acceptable. As now seems clear, the fascist right went to Southport for a paddy outside a Mosque. This is not politics, it was crime.
    Those talking about "sending them back" here last night fell into a very nasty, far right, rabbit hole for which there was little to no justification.
    Several long time posters are leaving PB because self indulgent egoists hijack threads and either genuinely post or assume a pose of supporting, nakedly racist or otherwise anti democratic crap. The site is becoming an unreadable parody of itself as a result.
    I would miss the old place, and appreciate the work RCS and TSE have done since the sad retirement of OGH, but unless these posters moderate themselves or get moderated, and quickly, then repeated unreadable threads will do their own work. Perhaps some may say it was some kind of joke, but it's a pretty sick joke when kids die and you are echoing EDL racist talking points.

    Oh you're the PB police guy, right?

    Just tell people they're being idiots and why, rather than trying to ban everything. I have no doubt your rhetorical skills are up to the job.
    No he's saying that some of the posters are potentially going to drive him (having already driven many other former posters) from this site.

    and I really didn't like having to point out the racist undertones many posters revealed themselves to have last night..
    Fair enough then let him leave.

    It's perfectly legitimate to be racist. Indicative of a failure of intelligence, of logic, of fear or of something else, all of which can helpfully be explained if anyone can be bothered. I began a reply to eg Leon yesterday but realised I couldn't be bothered in this instance.

    I have been bothered several times before, however, and Leon, probably also by his own admission, benefits from when people can be bothered to tell him what an arse he's being.

    @cicero should try that approach. Or indeed leave the site I'm sure he will be missed. Or perhaps not.
    Who cares if people go or stay. Most of us don’t know each other in real life anyway. I doubt I would be missed and I doubt most people would be missed. Life and the group would just go on.

    Last night was interesting. Didn’t show the site at its best, but it is a very contentious issue and little children being murdered is bound to be emotive.

    However the term racism is somewhat Elastic. Eek and Bart were screaming racist at anyone who dared to disagree with them or their worldview. But that is a modern phenomenon and not just when it comes to race but also to other minority issues. Farooq cited racism when he left but that was down to Gaza.

    I would say only a couple of posts at most were crossing the line and I doubt anyone here is a racist either. No one got banned. The posts the day the footage came out of the lads battering Plod at the airport was far more contentious and ban hammer came out.

    People come, people go. Let them. The membership of any online group is fluid. As for why people leave unless they specifically say we don’t know. Some people simply decide why they left to advance their own hobby horse and project.



    Um, no I called out a poster for posting something that was a racist leap in logic. Now I like the poster but on that one issue he did show a side of him I wasn't expecting..
    You just answered your own question/conundrum.

    If it was a leap of logic then point out the logic fail. I mean why bother is the only question but as we are all here talking about stuff it seems appropriate to do so.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,393
    edited July 31
    HYUFD said:

    @tomhfh
    The average house price in Redcar is £164,115.

    The average house price in London is £693,969.

    Guess which has had their housing target cut, and which has seen their housing target balloon?

    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1818413582314352735

    This Northerner welcomes more houses in the North.

    And as we discussed last night, house prices in Redcar are extremely expensive and unaffordable. That average price is over 5x the median income of £32k.

    A 3x income to price ratio would mean that prices in Redcar should be circa £96k not £164k. A 2x income to price ratio, which would be even better and what it was when some on this site bought their first home, would make prices £64k.

    Cutting London's target is wrong. Increasing targets in Redcar or anywhere else* in the North is not.

    * According to the ONS the only place in the entire country with a sub-3x affordability ratio is Copeland. Though even in Copeland its only just affordable at 2.9x . . . the rest of the country, even the more relatively 'affordable' bits like Redcar are 5x plus.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,812
    edited July 31

    Nigelb said:

    Re Harris. Its all a bit redolent of the Cleggasm in 2010.

    This is a honeymoon period. She may win but things will turn to her policies come September.

    It's not really comparable.

    How many 10k seat stadiums did Clegg fill ?
    If filling stadiums with loyal supporters won you elections then Trump would have won in 2020, and Britain's Trump (Jeremy Corbyn) would have won in 2017.

    Thankfully its every voter and not just the zealots in stadiums that choose the victor.

    Equally thankfully Kamala's support seems to be deep and showing in polls and not just stadia.
    Corbyn did get a hung parliament and remove the Tory majority in 2017 and Trump won and beat Hillary Clinton in 2016.

    At the moment Harris is polling below even Hillary's 48% 2016 voteshare on average and well below Biden's 51% 2020 voteshare. However she seems to be polling better in battleground states where she needs to than Hillary did so her more efficient vote may see her home
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,500
    Mr. HYUFD, Corbyn benefited from May's incomprehensibly awful campaign implosion, much as Johnson benefited from Corbyn being seen as atrocious, and Starmer from a huge desire to get rid of the Conservatives.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,711
    edited July 31
    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cicero said:

    Just a brief comment re: the Helter Skelter nonsense put out by a couple of posters last night.
    This site used to be a go to for partisan but informed debate. Reasonably knock about but the point is that it was reasonable and often very well informed. The comments last night were not acceptable. As now seems clear, the fascist right went to Southport for a paddy outside a Mosque. This is not politics, it was crime.
    Those talking about "sending them back" here last night fell into a very nasty, far right, rabbit hole for which there was little to no justification.
    Several long time posters are leaving PB because self indulgent egoists hijack threads and either genuinely post or assume a pose of supporting, nakedly racist or otherwise anti democratic crap. The site is becoming an unreadable parody of itself as a result.
    I would miss the old place, and appreciate the work RCS and TSE have done since the sad retirement of OGH, but unless these posters moderate themselves or get moderated, and quickly, then repeated unreadable threads will do their own work. Perhaps some may say it was some kind of joke, but it's a pretty sick joke when kids die and you are echoing EDL racist talking points.

    Oh you're the PB police guy, right?

    Just tell people they're being idiots and why, rather than trying to ban everything. I have no doubt your rhetorical skills are up to the job.
    No he's saying that some of the posters are potentially going to drive him (having already driven many other former posters) from this site.

    and I really didn't like having to point out the racist undertones many posters revealed themselves to have last night..
    Fair enough then let him leave.

    It's perfectly legitimate to be racist. Indicative of a failure of intelligence, of logic, of fear or of something else, all of which can helpfully be explained if anyone can be bothered. I began a reply to eg Leon yesterday but realised I couldn't be bothered in this instance.

    I have been bothered several times before, however, and Leon, probably also by his own admission, benefits from when people can be bothered to tell him what an arse he's being.

    @cicero should try that approach. Or indeed leave the site I'm sure he will be missed. Or perhaps not.
    There are three or four seriously unpleasant racists on here. Why should those who want to talk elections and politics like Cicero and twenty or so others have to wade through their sludge in order to enjoy the pleasurable and informative parts of this site?

    Most of us through family friends and other connections know people like those being traduced and it isn't pleasant.
    Its also a huge insult to TSE and Robert who have done an extraordinary job maintaining the site as a gem for informative conversation.

    Yesterday's thread had a few really ugly posts and even worse the support of some very insideous 'likes'
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,812

    HYUFD said:

    @tomhfh
    The average house price in Redcar is £164,115.

    The average house price in London is £693,969.

    Guess which has had their housing target cut, and which has seen their housing target balloon?

    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1818413582314352735

    This Northerner welcomes more houses in the North.

    And as we discussed last night, house prices in Redcar are extremely expensive and unaffordable. That average price is over 5x the median income of £32k.

    A 3x income to price ratio would mean that prices in Redcar should be circa £96k not £164k. A 2x income to price ratio, which would be even better and what it was when some on this site bought their first home, would make prices £64k.

    Cutting London's target is wrong. Increasing targets in Redcar or anywhere else* in the North is not.

    * According to the ONS the only place in the entire country with a sub-3x affordability ratio is Copeland. Though even in Copeland its only just affordable at 2.9x . . . the rest of the country, even the more relatively 'affordable' bits like Redcar are 5x plus.
    Houses in Redcar are not expensive at all relative to London. Indeed a couple both earning average wage in Redcar would find the average house price there was less than 3 times their combined salary.

    The average house price in London though is over 6 times the combined salary of even a couple each earning average London salary
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,384
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cicero said:

    Just a brief comment re: the Helter Skelter nonsense put out by a couple of posters last night.
    This site used to be a go to for partisan but informed debate. Reasonably knock about but the point is that it was reasonable and often very well informed. The comments last night were not acceptable. As now seems clear, the fascist right went to Southport for a paddy outside a Mosque. This is not politics, it was crime.
    Those talking about "sending them back" here last night fell into a very nasty, far right, rabbit hole for which there was little to no justification.
    Several long time posters are leaving PB because self indulgent egoists hijack threads and either genuinely post or assume a pose of supporting, nakedly racist or otherwise anti democratic crap. The site is becoming an unreadable parody of itself as a result.
    I would miss the old place, and appreciate the work RCS and TSE have done since the sad retirement of OGH, but unless these posters moderate themselves or get moderated, and quickly, then repeated unreadable threads will do their own work. Perhaps some may say it was some kind of joke, but it's a pretty sick joke when kids die and you are echoing EDL racist talking points.

    Oh you're the PB police guy, right?

    Just tell people they're being idiots and why, rather than trying to ban everything. I have no doubt your rhetorical skills are up to the job.
    No he's saying that some of the posters are potentially going to drive him (having already driven many other former posters) from this site.

    and I really didn't like having to point out the racist undertones many posters revealed themselves to have last night..
    Fair enough then let him leave.

    It's perfectly legitimate to be racist. Indicative of a failure of intelligence, of logic, of fear or of something else, all of which can helpfully be explained if anyone can be bothered. I began a reply to eg Leon yesterday but realised I couldn't be bothered in this instance.

    I have been bothered several times before, however, and Leon, probably also by his own admission, benefits from when people can be bothered to tell him what an arse he's being.

    @cicero should try that approach. Or indeed leave the site I'm sure he will be missed. Or perhaps not.
    Who cares if people go or stay. Most of us don’t know each other in real life anyway. I doubt I would be missed and I doubt most people would be missed. Life and the group would just go on.

    Last night was interesting. Didn’t show the site at its best, but it is a very contentious issue and little children being murdered is bound to be emotive.

    However the term racism is somewhat Elastic. Eek and Bart were screaming racist at anyone who dared to disagree with them or their worldview. But that is a modern phenomenon and not just when it comes to race but also to other minority issues. Farooq cited racism when he left but that was down to Gaza.

    I would say only a couple of posts at most were crossing the line and I doubt anyone here is a racist either. No one got banned. The posts the day the footage came out of the lads battering Plod at the airport was far more contentious and ban hammer came out.

    People come, people go. Let them. The membership of any online group is fluid. As for why people leave unless they specifically say we don’t know. Some people simply decide why they left to advance their own hobby horse and project.



    Um, no I called out a poster for posting something that was a racist leap in logic. Now I like the poster but on that one issue he did show a side of him I wasn't expecting..
    So it is "a poster" now not many posters as you said earlier.

    "and I really didn't like having to point out the racist undertones many posters revealed themselves to have last night.."
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,446
    All these numbers say to me is that Trump is a really, really unpopular candidate beyond his base. The Democrats had two years to find someone to take him on and destroy him and what he stands for but they didn't. So now they have Harris - sentient, relatively young but also not great. This would not have even been close if the Democrats had acted responsibly and made clear to Biden long ago that he was a one term president.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,384
    Roger said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cicero said:

    Just a brief comment re: the Helter Skelter nonsense put out by a couple of posters last night.
    This site used to be a go to for partisan but informed debate. Reasonably knock about but the point is that it was reasonable and often very well informed. The comments last night were not acceptable. As now seems clear, the fascist right went to Southport for a paddy outside a Mosque. This is not politics, it was crime.
    Those talking about "sending them back" here last night fell into a very nasty, far right, rabbit hole for which there was little to no justification.
    Several long time posters are leaving PB because self indulgent egoists hijack threads and either genuinely post or assume a pose of supporting, nakedly racist or otherwise anti democratic crap. The site is becoming an unreadable parody of itself as a result.
    I would miss the old place, and appreciate the work RCS and TSE have done since the sad retirement of OGH, but unless these posters moderate themselves or get moderated, and quickly, then repeated unreadable threads will do their own work. Perhaps some may say it was some kind of joke, but it's a pretty sick joke when kids die and you are echoing EDL racist talking points.

    Oh you're the PB police guy, right?

    Just tell people they're being idiots and why, rather than trying to ban everything. I have no doubt your rhetorical skills are up to the job.
    No he's saying that some of the posters are potentially going to drive him (having already driven many other former posters) from this site.

    and I really didn't like having to point out the racist undertones many posters revealed themselves to have last night..
    Fair enough then let him leave.

    It's perfectly legitimate to be racist. Indicative of a failure of intelligence, of logic, of fear or of something else, all of which can helpfully be explained if anyone can be bothered. I began a reply to eg Leon yesterday but realised I couldn't be bothered in this instance.

    I have been bothered several times before, however, and Leon, probably also by his own admission, benefits from when people can be bothered to tell him what an arse he's being.

    @cicero should try that approach. Or indeed leave the site I'm sure he will be missed. Or perhaps not.
    There are three or four seriously unpleasant racists on here. Why should those who want to talk elections and politics like Cicero and twenty or so others have to wade through their sludge in order to enjoy the pleasurable and informative parts of this site?

    Most of us through family friends and other connections know people like those being traduced and it isn't pleasant.
    Its also a huge insult to TSE and Robert who have done an extraordinary job maintaining the site as a gem for informative conversation.

    Yesterday's thread had a few really ugly posts and even worse the support of some very insideous 'likes'
    Prejudice is an awful thing, I agree.

    You, yourself, are full of prejudice against people who dared to vote Brexit because it inconveniences your rather privileged lifestyle with a place in France. You have made some extremely unpleasant comments about Brexit voters.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,035

    All these numbers say to me is that Trump is a really, really unpopular candidate beyond his base. The Democrats had two years to find someone to take him on and destroy him and what he stands for but they didn't. So now they have Harris - sentient, relatively young but also not great. This would not have even been close if the Democrats had acted responsibly and made clear to Biden long ago that he was a one term president.

    American politics would be in a much better place if neither Biden nor Trump had tried to continue, made their decisions at the start of the year, and allowed the parties to run regular primaries to battle through their ideas.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,812
    edited July 31

    Mr. HYUFD, Corbyn benefited from May's incomprehensibly awful campaign implosion, much as Johnson benefited from Corbyn being seen as atrocious, and Starmer from a huge desire to get rid of the Conservatives.

    Boris got more at his rallies than Theresa did too though as Obama got more at his rallies than Hillary Clinton did, rally crowd size is not exactly correlated to election results but not entirely divorced from them either.

    Starmer also got just 33% this year, just 1% more than Corbyn got in 2019 and 7% less than Corbyn got in 2017 even if it got him lots of seats as the right split between Tories and Reform

  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited July 31
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    Y

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    FF43 said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    The new government will never have more goodwill than they do now, a month into a large majority.

    Yet they’ve actually been very timid with the annoucements, and made some basic errors such as cancelling infrastructure projects to pay for current spending, especially their old friends in the public sector unions.

    The 22% raise for those who already earn well above average wage comes across as particularly egregious, and will no doubt inspire other unions to ask for the same. A 22% offer that’s been described as derisory by the union involved, the leader of which does his best to come across as Arthur Scargill with a stethoscope.

    It's a curious set of infrastructure projects that have been cancelled because most of them were pie in sky crap (the restoring your railway ones) or could be argued to be ongoing expenditure (is it really investment if you are replacing an existing hospital)...

    You then have the very contentious A303 Stonehenge tunnel and an A27 scheme which the locals seem to actively hate...

    So I see a couple of political point scoring victories (A303,A27) hidden in the cost cutting there, a pile of populist crap (the restoring railways "projects") and a question over what is investment..
    I don’t know about the A27, but the A303 has been top of the agenda for at least three decades now, and the HS2 link to Euston leaves a white elephant of a line that no-one actually going to London is going to use except with promotional fares, and adds more human congestion to the reduced number of trains on the legacy main lines. The Thames crossing has already spend a quarter of a billion on paperwork, and don’t start me on Heathrow’s third runway.

    All of these should have been done a long, long time ago, and it’s disappointing to see a new government kick the can just as the last one did. And the one before that.
    Heathrow's third runway isn't a money issue - that would be paid for by Heathrow.

    As for HS2 - my opinion is that once it was designed it should have been built as is - but Euston should be being advertised as the 2/3 different projects it is so that people know where the money is going...
    I'm less concerned about delaying the final part to Euston (a) because I think they will do it eventually and (b) it doesn't invalidate the rest of the line.

    Much play is made that people don't want to journey to Old Oak Common. But they mostly don't want to go to Euston either. Almost everyone wants to go to a station in London and from there take local transport to their final destination. Old Oak Common fulfills that role as does Euston. A third of passengers would choose to get off at Old Oak Common anyway, it's marginal for many of the rest and almost everyone will make the trip to Old Oak Common if that's where the station is. The main effect is to overload the Elizabeth Line.

    I'm a lot more concerned about the section to Crewe. If you don't put the capacity in to a similar specification as the southern part, it undermines the whole project.
    edit - you already made both my points further down..

    Isn't the Birmingham to Crewe bit the most economically viable part of the entire project?

    After that I thought it was the HSb (Eastern Leg) and then the bit to Manchester?
    Mm - define 'economically viable'.

    Birmingham to Crewe is certainly the least costly. But I'd say 'economically viable' would be your balance of costs and benefits. So:
    a) what benefits does the economic case of the business case say it delivers?
    b) does it deliver those if the other sections are not delivered?
    c) what about the other non-quantified benefits (which are in all likelihood greater than those which have been quantified) - e.g. regeneration benefits, e.g. capacity relief, e.g. sections which deliver parts of other proposed investments?


    Answer: it's complicated!


    Its not that complicated.

    If they don't build phase 2a to Crewe, six tracks (four Trent Valley and Two HS2) will converge on un grade separated Colwich Junction and two track Shugborough Tunnel.

    It's a total clusterfuck. That is such a pinchpoint that an upgrade to bypass it all was already planned before being canned when HS2 came along.
    Er, the Stone avoiding line diverges *before* Shugborough Tunnel. So it's four lines, not two, that operate there.

    It would still be a pinch point but not quite as bad a one as you think.
    Colwich is where the line to stoke on trent goes of and the WCML goes down to 2 track north of it through Shugborough Tunnel.

    All it carries is two of the Euston to Manchesters per hour (down trains thereof also conflict with up trains from Stafford at Colwich).

    If the "stone avoiding line" had a route back to the West Coast Main Line north of Stafford, you might have a point, but it dosent south of Crewe. Although the Stoke to Crewe Line being electrified in the last few years helps.
    It carries far more than 2tph at peak periods. More like 8 (or four each way).

    Also, if there were no crossover at Stone it couldn't carry trains to Stoke.

    I agree it would be better if it were grade separated, but your earlier claim of 'six tracks going down to two tracks' was simply daft.
    Eh?

    You can't go Colwich - Stone Avoiding line - back to WCML (before Crewe and slowly at any rate)

    It is basically a branch.

    The WCML is four track, then two HS2 tracks will join it a few miles before it becomes 2 track through Shugborough Tunnel.

    As to 4TPH in the peak service, to Stoke avoiding Stafford is still 2PH (3 tph from Manchester to Euton, but one goes via Wilmslow and Crewe).

    There is an extra Manchester to Euston via Stoke in the morning peak, but that goes via Stafford and Birmingham, same as all the Crosscountries (as did the London Midland Euston to Crewe via Stafford and Stoke before they decided to bypass Stoke and send it fast from Stafford to Crewe).
    Rail planning is one of those areas in which it is quite astonishing how many really quite knowledgeable people there are on here.
    Although they don't include that particular poster, who not only doesn't know the track layout but describes a line as 'basically a branch' before noting it takes fast services...
    Yeah, what the fuck would I know after a lifetime spent in the industry.

    Suggest you look up some easy to access publically available resources like then one below before talking out of the back of your head.

    https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/sta
    Or I could do what I do fairly frequently, living only a few miles away, and go and look at the track...

    Given your very strange pronouncements on the MML and HS2 I'm inclined to say the answer to your first question is 'not a lot,' if I'm honest.

    Looking at the track from the ground isn't particularly helpful in understanding how a complex layout like Colwich works, nor the usefulness and traffic density of the various routes from it.

    A look at Whitehouse Junction (where the two tracks through Shugborough Tunnel widen back to four) and Hixon (on what you call the Stone Avoiding Line (actually it is no such thing - it passes through Stone Station on seaparate tracks where the platforms were demolished in the '60s)) on real time trains will show you that all bar a very small number of the large number of passenger and freight trains passing through Colwich Junction run through the two track bottleneck that is Shugborough Tunnel.

    The site will show you that of the 27 trains that run south from or two Colwich Junction, passing either Whitehouse Jct or Hixon between 9 AM and 10 AM:

    * 23 pass through Shugborough Tunnel and Whitehouse Junction between 9AM and 10AM.

    * Just 4 pass through Hixon on your so called Stone avoiding Line between 9AM and 10AM .


    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:WHHSJN/2024-07-31/0835

    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:COLWHXN/2024-07-31/0822
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,577
    Morning all :)

    Apologies for going off-topic.

    As I mentioned last evening, the "problem" isn't just between communities but within communities as well with those who have been here for two or three generations and settled albeit within fairly well defined neighbourhoods struggling with the more recently arrived.

    To be controversial (which I try not to be but based on my personal experience in East London), something has changed whether it's economic, cultural or technological. The incoming Romanians or Albanians to this part of London can live quite happily with only the minimum contact with other people outside their ethnicity. They have their own shops, businesses and hairdressers, I suspect they can watch their own tv programmes via satellite or cable or stream and they often live and work amongst their own people so they have only rudimentary English.

    The one exception are the children who go to schools and learn English - if there's a positive in the current situation it's the next generation(s) will be more British and will integrate more.

    People like people like themselves.

    Even those who came here 50-60 years ago face the intra-generational challenges of assimilation. The second generation finds it easier than the first and the third easier than the second. Back in the 60s and 70s, the ability to insulate was much less than now. In truth, the older established residents of Banglatown see the new arrivals almost as strangers.

    Yet immigration and assimilation has both changed the immigrants and the indigenous population - Britain has changed and evolved and however attractive the 1950s and 1960s may seem in hindsight, we aren't going back to that romanticised idyll.

    If there is a recognition growing the economy and building 300,000 dwellings per year is a requirement and if we can't source the capacity to do this from within our own population, then we need skilled labour or labour to whom we can give the skills whether it's a plumber, a sparks or a chippy or whatever.

    None of this has changed with the change of Government and if there are solutions, they won't be quick or easy. I suppose there's a choice - insularity, a tough immigration policy (one in, one out?), an assertion of traditional values and identity combined with heavy policing of some immigrant areas but with a recognition economic growth and progress will be sluggish at best or a more open approach where people come, work and improve the economy but with the recognition the social and cultural impacts of such a policy won't be uniformly positive and a cohesive society might be one of the casualties.

    Neither option is attractive.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,435
    Roger said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cicero said:

    Just a brief comment re: the Helter Skelter nonsense put out by a couple of posters last night.
    This site used to be a go to for partisan but informed debate. Reasonably knock about but the point is that it was reasonable and often very well informed. The comments last night were not acceptable. As now seems clear, the fascist right went to Southport for a paddy outside a Mosque. This is not politics, it was crime.
    Those talking about "sending them back" here last night fell into a very nasty, far right, rabbit hole for which there was little to no justification.
    Several long time posters are leaving PB because self indulgent egoists hijack threads and either genuinely post or assume a pose of supporting, nakedly racist or otherwise anti democratic crap. The site is becoming an unreadable parody of itself as a result.
    I would miss the old place, and appreciate the work RCS and TSE have done since the sad retirement of OGH, but unless these posters moderate themselves or get moderated, and quickly, then repeated unreadable threads will do their own work. Perhaps some may say it was some kind of joke, but it's a pretty sick joke when kids die and you are echoing EDL racist talking points.

    Oh you're the PB police guy, right?

    Just tell people they're being idiots and why, rather than trying to ban everything. I have no doubt your rhetorical skills are up to the job.
    No he's saying that some of the posters are potentially going to drive him (having already driven many other former posters) from this site.

    and I really didn't like having to point out the racist undertones many posters revealed themselves to have last night..
    Fair enough then let him leave.

    It's perfectly legitimate to be racist. Indicative of a failure of intelligence, of logic, of fear or of something else, all of which can helpfully be explained if anyone can be bothered. I began a reply to eg Leon yesterday but realised I couldn't be bothered in this instance.

    I have been bothered several times before, however, and Leon, probably also by his own admission, benefits from when people can be bothered to tell him what an arse he's being.

    @cicero should try that approach. Or indeed leave the site I'm sure he will be missed. Or perhaps not.
    There are three or four seriously unpleasant racists on here. Why should those who want to talk elections and politics like Cicero and twenty or so others have to wade through their sludge in order to enjoy the pleasurable and informative parts of this site?

    Most of us through family friends and other connections know people like those being traduced and it isn't pleasant.
    Its also a huge insult to TSE and Robert who have done an extraordinary job maintaining the site as a gem for informative conversation.

    Yesterday's thread had a few really ugly posts and even worse the support of some very insideous 'likes'
    Racism is a thing and imo it is usually predicated on fear, ignorance, and lack of logic. I think what we see on here is an echoing of racist ideas rather than racism (although the distinction matters not on the written page).

    To state the bleedin' obvious, and as a quick glance at its content will confirm, PB is not just about elections and politics. It is a microcosm of society whereby we all benefit from hearing views of a wide range of people and hence I don't think it out of place to "discuss" racism when someone on here makes what appears to be a racist comment.

    If you really object to someone's views then skip over the post.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,393
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @tomhfh
    The average house price in Redcar is £164,115.

    The average house price in London is £693,969.

    Guess which has had their housing target cut, and which has seen their housing target balloon?

    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1818413582314352735

    This Northerner welcomes more houses in the North.

    And as we discussed last night, house prices in Redcar are extremely expensive and unaffordable. That average price is over 5x the median income of £32k.

    A 3x income to price ratio would mean that prices in Redcar should be circa £96k not £164k. A 2x income to price ratio, which would be even better and what it was when some on this site bought their first home, would make prices £64k.

    Cutting London's target is wrong. Increasing targets in Redcar or anywhere else* in the North is not.

    * According to the ONS the only place in the entire country with a sub-3x affordability ratio is Copeland. Though even in Copeland its only just affordable at 2.9x . . . the rest of the country, even the more relatively 'affordable' bits like Redcar are 5x plus.
    Houses in Redcar are not expensive at all relative to London. Indeed a couple both earning average wage in Redcar would find the average house price there was less than 3 times their combined salary.

    The average house price in London though is over 6 times the combined salary of even a couple each earning average London salary
    "Relative to London" is irrelevant.

    Houses in Redcar are very expensive relative to Redcar.

    Check the ONS chart. House price to income ratio in Redcar has reached a record high of unaffordability, for Redcar.

    3x a couple's combined salary is extremely expensive and not what we should be aiming for, 3x median salary is the ratio houses used to be and what we should get house price ratios back down to. Anywhere higher than 3x median salary needs massively more construction until houses are affordable once more.

    Everyone working full time should be able to afford a house of their own.

    ONS Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/housingaffordabilityinenglandandwales/2022
    Specifically Redcar: https://i.ibb.co/429VZ8m/image.png
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,812
    Sandpit said:

    All these numbers say to me is that Trump is a really, really unpopular candidate beyond his base. The Democrats had two years to find someone to take him on and destroy him and what he stands for but they didn't. So now they have Harris - sentient, relatively young but also not great. This would not have even been close if the Democrats had acted responsibly and made clear to Biden long ago that he was a one term president.

    American politics would be in a much better place if neither Biden nor Trump had tried to continue, made their decisions at the start of the year, and allowed the parties to run regular primaries to battle through their ideas.
    Yes, albeit if Haley had won the GOP primaries and Harris had won the Democratic primaries I don't think anyone doubts Haley would have won comfortably.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,315
    Well this will not be inflationary at all.

    The new government has confirmed two major changes to how the minimum wage is set.

    Jonathan Reynolds, the new business secretary, has ordered the Low Pay Commission (LPC) to change its remit so the body must in future factor in the cost of living when deciding the rate of the minimum wage and national living wage.

    The measure is likely to further blur the difference between the minimum wage and the national living wage - long reflecting unhappiness in the labour movement about the latter.


    https://news.sky.com/story/shake-up-of-minimum-pay-calculations-comes-with-risks-attached-13187519
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,727
    HYUFD said:

    @tomhfh
    The average house price in Redcar is £164,115.

    The average house price in London is £693,969.

    Guess which has had their housing target cut, and which has seen their housing target balloon?

    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1818413582314352735

    Good morning

    At least Reeves will be able to look at London as an excellent source of tax revenue as she amends IHT rules in Oct
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 26,948
    HYUFD said:

    @tomhfh
    The average house price in Redcar is £164,115.

    The average house price in London is £693,969.

    Guess which has had their housing target cut, and which has seen their housing target balloon?

    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1818413582314352735

    Heaven forfend we should build more affordable housing up north somewhere.

    Almost uniquely among our peers, Britain's economic activity is concentrated in one corner. It is not sustainable. We need new towns, or at least refurbished or expanded old ones. Transport links between them would be nice too but that's off the agenda.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,812
    edited July 31

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @tomhfh
    The average house price in Redcar is £164,115.

    The average house price in London is £693,969.

    Guess which has had their housing target cut, and which has seen their housing target balloon?

    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1818413582314352735

    This Northerner welcomes more houses in the North.

    And as we discussed last night, house prices in Redcar are extremely expensive and unaffordable. That average price is over 5x the median income of £32k.

    A 3x income to price ratio would mean that prices in Redcar should be circa £96k not £164k. A 2x income to price ratio, which would be even better and what it was when some on this site bought their first home, would make prices £64k.

    Cutting London's target is wrong. Increasing targets in Redcar or anywhere else* in the North is not.

    * According to the ONS the only place in the entire country with a sub-3x affordability ratio is Copeland. Though even in Copeland its only just affordable at 2.9x . . . the rest of the country, even the more relatively 'affordable' bits like Redcar are 5x plus.
    Houses in Redcar are not expensive at all relative to London. Indeed a couple both earning average wage in Redcar would find the average house price there was less than 3 times their combined salary.

    The average house price in London though is over 6 times the combined salary of even a couple each earning average London salary
    "Relative to London" is irrelevant.

    Houses in Redcar are very expensive relative to Redcar.

    Check the ONS chart. House price to income ratio in Redcar has reached a record high of unaffordability, for Redcar.

    3x a couple's combined salary is extremely expensive and not what we should be aiming for, 3x median salary is the ratio houses used to be and what we should get house price ratios back down to. Anywhere higher than 3x median salary needs massively more construction until houses are affordable once more.

    Everyone working full time should be able to afford a house of their own.

    ONS Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/housingaffordabilityinenglandandwales/2022
    Specifically Redcar: https://i.ibb.co/429VZ8m/image.png
    3x combined salary is what we should be aiming for while most couples both work.

    If mothers (or indeed a few more fathers) mainly stayed at home with the children and did the housework and cooked dinner and dropped the kids off at school 1950s style while their spouse or partner went to work then 3x individual median salary as was normal in the 1950s is what we should be aiming for but that is not the situation now and that also inflates house prices
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,393
    stodge said:

    f there is a recognition growing the economy and building 300,000 dwellings per year is a requirement and if we can't source the capacity to do this from within our own population, then we need skilled labour or labour to whom we can give the skills whether it's a plumber, a sparks or a chippy or whatever.

    None of this has changed with the change of Government and if there are solutions, they won't be quick or easy. I suppose there's a choice - insularity, a tough immigration policy (one in, one out?), an assertion of traditional values and identity combined with heavy policing of some immigrant areas but with a recognition economic growth and progress will be sluggish at best or a more open approach where people come, work and improve the economy but with the recognition the social and cultural impacts of such a policy won't be uniformly positive and a cohesive society might be one of the casualties.

    Neither option is attractive.

    I have nothing against immigration and if more people want to come to this country, I couldn't care less, we just need commensurate investment to keep up. But this is a myth that we can't source the capacity in this country, we can. What people mean when they say they can't is they can't source it at the price they'd like to pay.

    We have 3 million people working in the construction sector in this country. It doesn't take 10 people an entire year of full time work to build a single house.

    Obviously the construction sector goes beyond constructing homes, but skills are mostly transferable as well as people being able to train in new skills if the pay is appropriate.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,035
    edited July 31

    HYUFD said:

    @tomhfh
    The average house price in Redcar is £164,115.

    The average house price in London is £693,969.

    Guess which has had their housing target cut, and which has seen their housing target balloon?

    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1818413582314352735

    Heaven forfend we should build more affordable housing up north somewhere.

    Almost uniquely among our peers, Britain's economic activity is concentrated in one corner. It is not sustainable. We need new towns, or at least refurbished or expanded old ones. Transport links between them would be nice too but that's off the agenda.
    There needs to be a whole series of new towns in the South. Start at Milton Keynes and Bicester, and follow the roads and rail lines towards London, building alongside the transport links and adding access to them.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,393
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @tomhfh
    The average house price in Redcar is £164,115.

    The average house price in London is £693,969.

    Guess which has had their housing target cut, and which has seen their housing target balloon?

    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1818413582314352735

    This Northerner welcomes more houses in the North.

    And as we discussed last night, house prices in Redcar are extremely expensive and unaffordable. That average price is over 5x the median income of £32k.

    A 3x income to price ratio would mean that prices in Redcar should be circa £96k not £164k. A 2x income to price ratio, which would be even better and what it was when some on this site bought their first home, would make prices £64k.

    Cutting London's target is wrong. Increasing targets in Redcar or anywhere else* in the North is not.

    * According to the ONS the only place in the entire country with a sub-3x affordability ratio is Copeland. Though even in Copeland its only just affordable at 2.9x . . . the rest of the country, even the more relatively 'affordable' bits like Redcar are 5x plus.
    Houses in Redcar are not expensive at all relative to London. Indeed a couple both earning average wage in Redcar would find the average house price there was less than 3 times their combined salary.

    The average house price in London though is over 6 times the combined salary of even a couple each earning average London salary
    "Relative to London" is irrelevant.

    Houses in Redcar are very expensive relative to Redcar.

    Check the ONS chart. House price to income ratio in Redcar has reached a record high of unaffordability, for Redcar.

    3x a couple's combined salary is extremely expensive and not what we should be aiming for, 3x median salary is the ratio houses used to be and what we should get house price ratios back down to. Anywhere higher than 3x median salary needs massively more construction until houses are affordable once more.

    Everyone working full time should be able to afford a house of their own.

    ONS Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/housingaffordabilityinenglandandwales/2022
    Specifically Redcar: https://i.ibb.co/429VZ8m/image.png
    3x combined salary is what we should be aiming for while most couples both work.

    If mothers (or indeed a few more fathers) mainly stayed at home with the children and did the housework and cooked dinner and dropped the kids off at school 1950s style while their spouse or partner went to work then 3x individual median salary as was normal in the 1950s is what we should be aiming for but that is not the situation now and that also inflates house prices
    No, 3x median salary is what we should be aiming for.

    If both members of a couple are working then the second income ought to be able to go on affording improving quality of life, luxuries like holidays etc, not just inflate the cost of houses.
  • M

    Well this will not be inflationary at all.

    The new government has confirmed two major changes to how the minimum wage is set.

    Jonathan Reynolds, the new business secretary, has ordered the Low Pay Commission (LPC) to change its remit so the body must in future factor in the cost of living when deciding the rate of the minimum wage and national living wage.

    The measure is likely to further blur the difference between the minimum wage and the national living wage - long reflecting unhappiness in the labour movement about the latter.


    https://news.sky.com/story/shake-up-of-minimum-pay-calculations-comes-with-risks-attached-13187519

    Also, their abolition of lower minimum wages for young people 18-21 will also be inflationary and cause major youth unemployment issues as there will be no incentive for employers to take on a youngster with no work experience and incomplete maturity over someone older who will be more mature and have employment experience (even if not in that field).

    It is disastrous utopian meddling of the worst sort.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,393
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    @tomhfh
    The average house price in Redcar is £164,115.

    The average house price in London is £693,969.

    Guess which has had their housing target cut, and which has seen their housing target balloon?

    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1818413582314352735

    Heaven forfend we should build more affordable housing up north somewhere.

    Almost uniquely among our peers, Britain's economic activity is concentrated in one corner. It is not sustainable. We need new towns, or at least refurbished or expanded old ones. Transport links between them would be nice too but that's off the agenda.
    There needs to be a whole series of new towns in the South. Start at Milton Keynes and Biscester, and follow the roads and rail lines towards London, building alongside the transport links and adding access to them.
    There does, but there also needs to be a whole series of new towns in the North too.

    And towns (and villages and cities) need to get bigger across the country too.

    Its not either/or, its all of the above.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,468

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @tomhfh
    The average house price in Redcar is £164,115.

    The average house price in London is £693,969.

    Guess which has had their housing target cut, and which has seen their housing target balloon?

    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1818413582314352735

    This Northerner welcomes more houses in the North.

    And as we discussed last night, house prices in Redcar are extremely expensive and unaffordable. That average price is over 5x the median income of £32k.

    A 3x income to price ratio would mean that prices in Redcar should be circa £96k not £164k. A 2x income to price ratio, which would be even better and what it was when some on this site bought their first home, would make prices £64k.

    Cutting London's target is wrong. Increasing targets in Redcar or anywhere else* in the North is not.

    * According to the ONS the only place in the entire country with a sub-3x affordability ratio is Copeland. Though even in Copeland its only just affordable at 2.9x . . . the rest of the country, even the more relatively 'affordable' bits like Redcar are 5x plus.
    Houses in Redcar are not expensive at all relative to London. Indeed a couple both earning average wage in Redcar would find the average house price there was less than 3 times their combined salary.

    The average house price in London though is over 6 times the combined salary of even a couple each earning average London salary
    "Relative to London" is irrelevant.

    Houses in Redcar are very expensive relative to Redcar.

    Check the ONS chart. House price to income ratio in Redcar has reached a record high of unaffordability, for Redcar.

    3x a couple's combined salary is extremely expensive and not what we should be aiming for, 3x median salary is the ratio houses used to be and what we should get house price ratios back down to. Anywhere higher than 3x median salary needs massively more construction until houses are affordable once more.

    Everyone working full time should be able to afford a house of their own.

    ONS Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/housingaffordabilityinenglandandwales/2022
    Specifically Redcar: https://i.ibb.co/429VZ8m/image.png
    3x combined salary is what we should be aiming for while most couples both work.

    If mothers (or indeed a few more fathers) mainly stayed at home with the children and did the housework and cooked dinner and dropped the kids off at school 1950s style while their spouse or partner went to work then 3x individual median salary as was normal in the 1950s is what we should be aiming for but that is not the situation now and that also inflates house prices
    No, 3x median salary is what we should be aiming for.

    If both members of a couple are working then the second income ought to be able to go on affording improving quality of life, luxuries like holidays etc, not just inflate the cost of houses.
    Would you support a ban on mortgages over 3x the main earner's salary?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,393

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @tomhfh
    The average house price in Redcar is £164,115.

    The average house price in London is £693,969.

    Guess which has had their housing target cut, and which has seen their housing target balloon?

    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1818413582314352735

    This Northerner welcomes more houses in the North.

    And as we discussed last night, house prices in Redcar are extremely expensive and unaffordable. That average price is over 5x the median income of £32k.

    A 3x income to price ratio would mean that prices in Redcar should be circa £96k not £164k. A 2x income to price ratio, which would be even better and what it was when some on this site bought their first home, would make prices £64k.

    Cutting London's target is wrong. Increasing targets in Redcar or anywhere else* in the North is not.

    * According to the ONS the only place in the entire country with a sub-3x affordability ratio is Copeland. Though even in Copeland its only just affordable at 2.9x . . . the rest of the country, even the more relatively 'affordable' bits like Redcar are 5x plus.
    Houses in Redcar are not expensive at all relative to London. Indeed a couple both earning average wage in Redcar would find the average house price there was less than 3 times their combined salary.

    The average house price in London though is over 6 times the combined salary of even a couple each earning average London salary
    "Relative to London" is irrelevant.

    Houses in Redcar are very expensive relative to Redcar.

    Check the ONS chart. House price to income ratio in Redcar has reached a record high of unaffordability, for Redcar.

    3x a couple's combined salary is extremely expensive and not what we should be aiming for, 3x median salary is the ratio houses used to be and what we should get house price ratios back down to. Anywhere higher than 3x median salary needs massively more construction until houses are affordable once more.

    Everyone working full time should be able to afford a house of their own.

    ONS Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/housingaffordabilityinenglandandwales/2022
    Specifically Redcar: https://i.ibb.co/429VZ8m/image.png
    3x combined salary is what we should be aiming for while most couples both work.

    If mothers (or indeed a few more fathers) mainly stayed at home with the children and did the housework and cooked dinner and dropped the kids off at school 1950s style while their spouse or partner went to work then 3x individual median salary as was normal in the 1950s is what we should be aiming for but that is not the situation now and that also inflates house prices
    No, 3x median salary is what we should be aiming for.

    If both members of a couple are working then the second income ought to be able to go on affording improving quality of life, luxuries like holidays etc, not just inflate the cost of houses.
    Would you support a ban on mortgages over 3x the main earner's salary?
    No.

    I believe in supply and demand.

    I would support ramping up supply until prices come down.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,727
    TOPPING said:

    Roger said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cicero said:

    Just a brief comment re: the Helter Skelter nonsense put out by a couple of posters last night.
    This site used to be a go to for partisan but informed debate. Reasonably knock about but the point is that it was reasonable and often very well informed. The comments last night were not acceptable. As now seems clear, the fascist right went to Southport for a paddy outside a Mosque. This is not politics, it was crime.
    Those talking about "sending them back" here last night fell into a very nasty, far right, rabbit hole for which there was little to no justification.
    Several long time posters are leaving PB because self indulgent egoists hijack threads and either genuinely post or assume a pose of supporting, nakedly racist or otherwise anti democratic crap. The site is becoming an unreadable parody of itself as a result.
    I would miss the old place, and appreciate the work RCS and TSE have done since the sad retirement of OGH, but unless these posters moderate themselves or get moderated, and quickly, then repeated unreadable threads will do their own work. Perhaps some may say it was some kind of joke, but it's a pretty sick joke when kids die and you are echoing EDL racist talking points.

    Oh you're the PB police guy, right?

    Just tell people they're being idiots and why, rather than trying to ban everything. I have no doubt your rhetorical skills are up to the job.
    No he's saying that some of the posters are potentially going to drive him (having already driven many other former posters) from this site.

    and I really didn't like having to point out the racist undertones many posters revealed themselves to have last night..
    Fair enough then let him leave.

    It's perfectly legitimate to be racist. Indicative of a failure of intelligence, of logic, of fear or of something else, all of which can helpfully be explained if anyone can be bothered. I began a reply to eg Leon yesterday but realised I couldn't be bothered in this instance.

    I have been bothered several times before, however, and Leon, probably also by his own admission, benefits from when people can be bothered to tell him what an arse he's being.

    @cicero should try that approach. Or indeed leave the site I'm sure he will be missed. Or perhaps not.
    There are three or four seriously unpleasant racists on here. Why should those who want to talk elections and politics like Cicero and twenty or so others have to wade through their sludge in order to enjoy the pleasurable and informative parts of this site?

    Most of us through family friends and other connections know people like those being traduced and it isn't pleasant.
    Its also a huge insult to TSE and Robert who have done an extraordinary job maintaining the site as a gem for informative conversation.

    Yesterday's thread had a few really ugly posts and even worse the support of some very insideous 'likes'
    Racism is a thing and imo it is usually predicated on fear, ignorance, and lack of logic. I think what we see on here is an echoing of racist ideas rather than racism (although the distinction matters not on the written page).

    To state the bleedin' obvious, and as a quick glance at its content will confirm, PB is not just about elections and politics. It is a microcosm of society whereby we all benefit from hearing views of a wide range of people and hence I don't think it out of place to "discuss" racism when someone on here makes what appears to be a racist comment.

    If you really object to someone's views then skip over the post.
    I would just say that some unpleasant things were said last night and emotions are understandably high following the tragedy in Southport, but this forum does have a wide spectrum of views and I have enormous respect for TSE and Robert who moderate the posts and it is not upto posters to seek the banning of other posters who views they do not like in an attempt to control a narrative more in line with their views
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,468

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @tomhfh
    The average house price in Redcar is £164,115.

    The average house price in London is £693,969.

    Guess which has had their housing target cut, and which has seen their housing target balloon?

    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1818413582314352735

    This Northerner welcomes more houses in the North.

    And as we discussed last night, house prices in Redcar are extremely expensive and unaffordable. That average price is over 5x the median income of £32k.

    A 3x income to price ratio would mean that prices in Redcar should be circa £96k not £164k. A 2x income to price ratio, which would be even better and what it was when some on this site bought their first home, would make prices £64k.

    Cutting London's target is wrong. Increasing targets in Redcar or anywhere else* in the North is not.

    * According to the ONS the only place in the entire country with a sub-3x affordability ratio is Copeland. Though even in Copeland its only just affordable at 2.9x . . . the rest of the country, even the more relatively 'affordable' bits like Redcar are 5x plus.
    Houses in Redcar are not expensive at all relative to London. Indeed a couple both earning average wage in Redcar would find the average house price there was less than 3 times their combined salary.

    The average house price in London though is over 6 times the combined salary of even a couple each earning average London salary
    "Relative to London" is irrelevant.

    Houses in Redcar are very expensive relative to Redcar.

    Check the ONS chart. House price to income ratio in Redcar has reached a record high of unaffordability, for Redcar.

    3x a couple's combined salary is extremely expensive and not what we should be aiming for, 3x median salary is the ratio houses used to be and what we should get house price ratios back down to. Anywhere higher than 3x median salary needs massively more construction until houses are affordable once more.

    Everyone working full time should be able to afford a house of their own.

    ONS Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/housingaffordabilityinenglandandwales/2022
    Specifically Redcar: https://i.ibb.co/429VZ8m/image.png
    3x combined salary is what we should be aiming for while most couples both work.

    If mothers (or indeed a few more fathers) mainly stayed at home with the children and did the housework and cooked dinner and dropped the kids off at school 1950s style while their spouse or partner went to work then 3x individual median salary as was normal in the 1950s is what we should be aiming for but that is not the situation now and that also inflates house prices
    No, 3x median salary is what we should be aiming for.

    If both members of a couple are working then the second income ought to be able to go on affording improving quality of life, luxuries like holidays etc, not just inflate the cost of houses.
    Would you support a ban on mortgages over 3x the main earner's salary?
    No.

    I believe in supply and demand.

    I would support ramping up supply until prices come down.
    Demand is potentially infinite unless you restrict immigration.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,198

    Well this will not be inflationary at all.

    The new government has confirmed two major changes to how the minimum wage is set.

    Jonathan Reynolds, the new business secretary, has ordered the Low Pay Commission (LPC) to change its remit so the body must in future factor in the cost of living when deciding the rate of the minimum wage and national living wage.

    The measure is likely to further blur the difference between the minimum wage and the national living wage - long reflecting unhappiness in the labour movement about the latter.


    https://news.sky.com/story/shake-up-of-minimum-pay-calculations-comes-with-risks-attached-13187519

    The minimum wage must be driven by economics and the demand for labour. If we have high employment, like now, and a shortage of labour it is sensible to increase the NMW by quite a lot because it incentivises work, encourages the more productive use of labour, reduces benefit contributions from the state and improves equality, all of which are good things.

    But if we start to find unemployment increasing we need to reduce the cost of employing people so that demand for labour increases again and people are not priced out of the jobs market.

    Of course we want people on the NMW to have a decent standard of living, not least because all too often we as a country end up topping up incomes if they don't. But it is not the criteria by which this yardstick should move: it is a macro policy not a micro one.
  • HYUFD said:

    @tomhfh
    The average house price in Redcar is £164,115.

    The average house price in London is £693,969.

    Guess which has had their housing target cut, and which has seen their housing target balloon?

    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1818413582314352735

    Good morning

    At least Reeves will be able to look at London as an excellent source of tax revenue as she amends IHT rules in Oct
    I doubt they will do more than mess with reliefs. It is council tax revaluation that London needs to fear.
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