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Brace yourselves, we're going to be talking about electoral reform a lot going forward

13

Comments

  • Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529
    edited July 8

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why do you have this obsession with building more masts?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,925

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 794

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Is there a big issue with them?

    Houses as a priority pls.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,020
    edited July 8
    Andy_JS said:

    "Mary Harrington
    @moveincircles

    Wake up babe New York City has invented bins

    Quote
    Liam Quigley
    @_elkue
    8h
    “Welcome to our trash revolution.” Mayor Adams introduces the new bin that buildings with 1-9 units will be required to use instead of loose bags of garbage"

    https://x.com/moveincircles/status/1810386106799530286

    Wait, were they seriously not using bins before now?

    That feels like its so simple it was mankind's third invention.
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 794
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Mary Harrington
    @moveincircles

    Wake up babe New York City has invented bins

    Quote
    Liam Quigley
    @_elkue
    8h
    “Welcome to our trash revolution.” Mayor Adams introduces the new bin that buildings with 1-9 units will be required to use instead of loose bags of garbage"

    https://x.com/moveincircles/status/1810386106799530286

    Wait, were they seriously not using bins before now?
    Not completely unknown in the UK. I had a flat on New Oxford Street c.2010 and I was just told to put rubbish out in a bag every morning and it would be picked up by council. I was discussing the amusing clip above with a friend and living in Bloombsbury Square he was the same.

    Kinda makes senses in these older places actually. Where would the bins go?
  • Andy_JS said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why do you have this obsession with building more masts?
    Why do you have this big obsession with Matthew Goodwin?
  • RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,020
    edited July 8
    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Very low turnouts at the election. (These numbers include spoilt papers, without them the percentage will be very slightly lower).

    "Manchester Rusholme 40.0%
    Leeds South 41.7%
    Kingston upon Hull East 42.2%
    Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney 42.7%
    Tipton and Wednesbury 42.9%
    Blackley and Middleton South 43.5%
    Birmingham Erdington 43.6%
    Birmingham Ladywood 43.7%
    Wolverhampton South East 43.7%
    Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North 43.9%"

    https://vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/19012/seat-turnout-2024-ge

    Tim Farron (31061) got more votes than Doncaster North (31002), Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney (29922), Kingston upon Hull East (29816) and Manchester Rusholme (29033) total turnout.
    He's had a bit of a ride has Farron - he won in 2005 by a few hundred votes, held on in 2015 with what may have been the highest LD majority remaining in the country of around 9k after a big increase in 2010, only to get nearly wiped out in 2017 with a majority under 1k, eked out a bit more of a lead in 2019, and now has a majority of over 20k, the highest ever seen in the seat.

    Wiki says it is the only seat Labour contested but failed to retain their deposit.
  • Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Is there a big issue with them?

    Houses as a priority pls.
    We lag WAY behind our neighbours. Housing then masts, agree with that. But better connectivity is essential for growth.
  • From now on, call me CorrectHorseBuildMastsBattery
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,874
    GIN1138 said:

    Don't think SKS will be in any rush to give up the voting system that gave him 411 seats on 34% if the national vote...

    But that's exactly what you should be doing.

    Scotland in 2015 was the tester, but it's now been proved that the old days of the 1950s to 2010s are dying if not dead. Gone are the days of two (then three) party politics with swings of 40 seats each election.

    You can now be a sitting government and gain seats and votes to take one of your best results since 1987 and then one cycle later go to the worst defeat since the Second World War.

    If it can happen to the Conservatives, it can happen to Labour - and indeed might.

    If Starmer was sensible, he'd realise the best way forward would be to at least entertain some sort of change.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,925
    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
  • James_MJames_M Posts: 103
    From my move in to the used EV market, battery health figures are tough to find. Some dealers don't really understand they exist and supposedly you have to ask dealers at service to do the tests and give you the state of health figure. So many owners don't ask either. In the end I went with a Kia as I have nearly 4 years of its 7 year warranty left.
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 794

    From now on, call me CorrectHorseBuildMastsBattery

    Your earlier posts seemed disproportionate but if you're prepared to change the only name you've ever had on this site then you must be serious. I'm convinced. Let's mast over the cotswolds.
  • RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,925
    edited July 8

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
    I was politely asking for more information so I could understand your position. It’s all well and good to say we need more masts, I just want to see the studies behind the claim.
  • From now on, call me CorrectHorseBuildMastsBattery

    Your earlier posts seemed disproportionate but if you're prepared to change the only name you've ever had on this site then you must be serious. I'm convinced. Let's mast over the cotswolds.
    We absolutely should. Why should any area of the UK be left behind? Masts everywhere to ensure full coverage, it is essential for growth.

    I know people think I am taking the piss but our neighbours manage it. Planning in this country is a joke for masts and connectivity in general.

    I am "obsessed" as it's my area of expertise, having worked for both Vodafone and O2.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,395
    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Very low turnouts at the election. (These numbers include spoilt papers, without them the percentage will be very slightly lower).

    "Manchester Rusholme 40.0%
    Leeds South 41.7%
    Kingston upon Hull East 42.2%
    Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney 42.7%
    Tipton and Wednesbury 42.9%
    Blackley and Middleton South 43.5%
    Birmingham Erdington 43.6%
    Birmingham Ladywood 43.7%
    Wolverhampton South East 43.7%
    Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North 43.9%"

    https://vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/19012/seat-turnout-2024-ge

    Tim Farron (31061) got more votes than Doncaster North (31002), Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney (29922), Kingston upon Hull East (29816) and Manchester Rusholme (29033) total turnout.
    He's had a bit of a ride has Farron - he won in 2005 by a few hundred votes, held on in 2015 with what may have been the highest LD majority remaining in the country of around 9k after a big increase in 2010, only to get nearly wiped out in 2017 with a majority under 1k, eked out a bit more of a lead in 2019, and now has a majority of over 20k, the highest ever seen in the seat.

    Wiki says it is the only seat Labour contested but failed to retain their deposit.
    Most remarkably it's a notional gain from the Tories.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
    I was politely asking for more information so I could understand your position. It’s all well and good to say we need more masts, I just want to see the studies behind the claim.
    It's self-evident that connectivity here is terrible, go abroad and compare.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,925
    edited July 8

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
    I was politely asking for more information so I could understand your position. It’s all well and good to say we need more masts, I just want to see the studies behind the claim.
    It's self-evident that connectivity here is terrible, go abroad and compare.
    Then it should be easy to back up your claim that 4/5G coverage is the main driver of economic growth.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,651

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
    Economic growth is driven by large conurbations, so way less than 100% is likely fine.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,562

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
    I was politely asking for more information so I could understand your position. It’s all well and good to say we need more masts, I just want to see the studies behind the claim.
    It's self-evident that connectivity here is terrible, go abroad and compare.
    Asia certainly, europe not so much. It is a bit embarassing that we can't have solid connectivity up the east and west coast mainlines, though.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,324
    edited July 8
    rjk said:

    ...PR, in contrast, can frustrate this: a party can govern badly, lose votes and vote share, and still get back into government via a coalition...

    I think your post has some great arguments, but I want to pick up on this. With STV, a party that is as unpopular as the Tories evidently were in GE 2024, will receive many fewer transfers, and therefore fewer seats, than in a list PR system. Arguably that's an element where STV is superior to a list PR system as the voter can effectively vote for the candidates of their choice and against other candidates.

    I also think that the question of coalitions is one where that is kinda up to the parties, and then the voters make their judgement on that at the next election. In practice, other parties are unlikely to choose to go into coalition with a party as unpopular as the Tories at GE 2024, because they will have the nous to recognise that the voters won't be happy about them doing so, and will react accordingly at the next election.

    The problem with FPTP being a one-note electoral system where the voters can only use it to tell the incumbent government to fuck off (or tell an anti-Semitic opposition leader to do likewise), is that then becomes the entire prism through which politics is debated. Ultimately democratic politics is about finding a peaceful way to settle disagreements that might otherwise become violent, and FPTP is a really bad way of doing that because it encourages a political discourse that is divisive, nihilistic and extreme in its rhetoric.

    Put in those terms, I would say that FPTP is an electoral system that favours divisive radicals, while STV is a natural fit for small-c conservatives.
  • EPG said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
    Economic growth is driven by large conurbations, so way less than 100% is likely fine.
    We're not close to 100%, that's the point. Right now rural communities are completely left behind.

    I know PB is full of people that don't use phones but still, please at least get with it. Every other country has realised this with FAR less restrictive planning than the UK.
  • carnforth said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
    I was politely asking for more information so I could understand your position. It’s all well and good to say we need more masts, I just want to see the studies behind the claim.
    It's self-evident that connectivity here is terrible, go abroad and compare.
    Asia certainly, europe not so much. It is a bit embarassing that we can't have solid connectivity up the east and west coast mainlines, though.
    Because the public reject the masts. Over-haul planning to allow taller sites + nearer to the railway (get NR giving up their assets) and the problem will disappear. Some green shoots on the Brighton Mainline but much more to do.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,651

    EPG said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
    Economic growth is driven by large conurbations, so way less than 100% is likely fine.
    We're not close to 100%, that's the point. Right now rural communities are completely left behind.

    I know PB is full of people that don't use phones but still, please at least get with it. Every other country has realised this with FAR less restrictive planning than the UK.
    Rural communities, from a purely economic point of view, do not need 5G. They need reliable contactless connectivity. Even 4G is largely quality of life. The old idea of levelling up was about higher growth in depressed Northern and Welsh towns than in productive regions. That was hard enough without making it about literally the countryside.
  • EPG said:

    EPG said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
    Economic growth is driven by large conurbations, so way less than 100% is likely fine.
    We're not close to 100%, that's the point. Right now rural communities are completely left behind.

    I know PB is full of people that don't use phones but still, please at least get with it. Every other country has realised this with FAR less restrictive planning than the UK.
    Rural communities, from a purely economic point of view, do not need 5G. They need reliable contactless connectivity. Even 4G is largely quality of life. The old idea of levelling up was about higher growth in depressed Northern and Welsh towns than in productive regions. That was hard enough without making it about literally the countryside.
    They don't even have 4G, because the MNOs can't build the masts easily enough to get it out to people.

    The SRN was a good start.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,020
    Eh, they'll muddle along fine.

    @TheVictCommons - When the new Parliament assembles tomorrow, more than half of MPs will not have sat in the Commons before. This exceeds the 38% of MPs who were new to parliamentary life in 1832. In this blog we looked at the impact of the 1832 Reform Act on the Commons: victoriancommons.wordpress.c…

    @pseaward1 - In fact you have to go back to the 1650s before you find a parliament in which more than 50% of its members had not previously sat in the House of Commons: true of the Short Parliament of April 1640 (261/486); of the Nominated Assembly of 1653 ....

    (though that one doesn't really count: 119/142); and Barebones parliament (281/439). All of those were special cases..

    https://nitter.poast.org/pseaward1/status/1810325498158879039#m
  • Eric Pickles for all his many faults was spot on, on Peston. Tories need to go away and figure out what they are for.

    I hope to God that is for anyone under the age of 95.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,395
    edited July 8
    Just modernise.
    We are not an instinctively conservative nation.
    Why not get ahead of the game for once?
    I hesitate to advise getting ahead of AI for fear of Leon.
    But why the fuck not be the first developed nation to embrace it rather than scrabbling around for ways to stop the future happening?
  • EPG said:

    EPG said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
    Economic growth is driven by large conurbations, so way less than 100% is likely fine.
    We're not close to 100%, that's the point. Right now rural communities are completely left behind.

    I know PB is full of people that don't use phones but still, please at least get with it. Every other country has realised this with FAR less restrictive planning than the UK.
    Rural communities, from a purely economic point of view, do not need 5G. They need reliable contactless connectivity. Even 4G is largely quality of life. The old idea of levelling up was about higher growth in depressed Northern and Welsh towns than in productive regions. That was hard enough without making it about literally the countryside.
    They don't even have 4G, because the MNOs can't build the masts easily enough to get it out to people.

    The SRN was a good start.
    I will credit the Tories with the SRN as a genuinely good idea. But needed more planning reform.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,851

    GIN1138 said:

    Don't think SKS will be in any rush to give up the voting system that gave him 411 seats on 34% if the national vote...

    But that's exactly what you should be doing.

    Scotland in 2015 was the tester, but it's now been proved that the old days of the 1950s to 2010s are dying if not dead. Gone are the days of two (then three) party politics with swings of 40 seats each election.

    You can now be a sitting government and gain seats and votes to take one of your best results since 1987 and then one cycle later go to the worst defeat since the Second World War.

    If it can happen to the Conservatives, it can happen to Labour - and indeed might.

    If Starmer was sensible, he'd realise the best way forward would be to at least entertain some sort of change.
    Mind you Churchill went down to landslide defeat in 1945 and won a general election to return to power in 1950, just 5 years later.

    Heath was trounced in 1966 by Wilson but won a clear majority at the next GE in 1970. So big swings over relatively short time frames have happened before Starmer did the same this year
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,518
    carnforth said:

    Roger said:

    If you want to kill some time and go down various intriguing rabbit holes, then the list of films on Rotten Tomatoes with 100% rating is fun. Local Hero is there, along with a film called Leave No Trace, which has stayed with me since I saw it in 2018 on a BAFTA screener.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_with_a_100%_rating_on_Rotten_Tomatoes

    Interesting. Leave No Trace was good but it wouldn't make it onto my 100 best films.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_with_a_0%_rating_on_Rotten_Tomatoes

    :lol:
    Rotten tomatoes' scoring system is binary: 100% fresh merely means no one hated it. Not a great signifier of greatness.
    But people there are born to hate...
  • PR now.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861
    edited July 8
    Roger said:

    If you want to kill some time and go down various intriguing rabbit holes, then the list of films on Rotten Tomatoes with 100% rating is fun. Local Hero is there, along with a film called Leave No Trace, which has stayed with me since I saw it in 2018 on a BAFTA screener.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_with_a_100%_rating_on_Rotten_Tomatoes

    Interesting. Leave No Trace was good but it wouldn't make it onto my 100 best films.
    I'm joining the conversation late but I was delighted to see one of my favourite films is on the Rotten Tomatoes best films list. 'The Swimmer' with Burt Lancaster.

    I was a teenager when I first saw it and was bowled over by it. Later, I was on a university placement and recommended the film to my supervisor when I saw that it was scheduled to be shown on TV that night. I was very enthusiastic - so he, his wife, their eight children and other extended family all planned their evening around my advice and watched the film. They were bemused my choice! And not entirely convinced!

    I think it's a great film. I didn't quite know why I liked it when I first saw it - and still don't. Anyone else a fan - or a critic?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,020
    viewcode said:

    I’ve been looking at the new Lib Dem intake.

    The median Lib Dem MP is a now a woman called Sarah who studied at a polytech and went on to set up a small charity in Wessex. With a few exceptions, they don’t look especially promising. Nor, to my way of thinking, classically liberal.

    As Starmer has done, Davey needs a few choice Lords appointments.

    "Polytechnics" haven't existed under that name since 1992. They'd've been born on/before 1974. Are they all fifty years old or older?
    The average age of MPs at a GE is usually about 50, so it is possible I suppose, though since nearly all the LD MPs are new I am assuming they are younger than is average. In 2019 5 of the 11 LD MPs were over 50.
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 794

    From now on, call me CorrectHorseBuildMastsBattery

    Your earlier posts seemed disproportionate but if you're prepared to change the only name you've ever had on this site then you must be serious. I'm convinced. Let's mast over the cotswolds.
    We absolutely should. Why should any area of the UK be left behind? Masts everywhere to ensure full coverage, it is essential for growth.

    I know people think I am taking the piss but our neighbours manage it. Planning in this country is a joke for masts and connectivity in general.

    I am "obsessed" as it's my area of expertise, having worked for both Vodafone and O2.
    Im certainly not opposed to more masts. But I'm skeptical that there are many places left (on a population weighted basis) where we need them for growth. Without going too much into me, I'm both tech savvy and in need of internet to do my job. But I don't need 5g speeds and am unlikely to do so in the next few years. And if I did need it, I have other options such as starlink or extremely recently virgin cable (I won't be signing up with latter tho; waiting for openreach to install full fibre so I can keep zen).

    This probably goes for at least 95% of those who need internet to work remotely / set up a business.
  • bobbobbobbob Posts: 100

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
    I’ve always thought England never really gets the benefit of being so densely populated

    We should have the best and cheapest connectivity, transport, utilities etc but we never do

    Never understood why

    Maybe too much is London which is perhaps TOO densely populated ??
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,129
    edited July 8
    dixiedean said:

    One of the most remarkable and telling features of all this is that Reform sympathetic posters keep insisting that they are going to succeed in the low wage low house price high employment areas of the North and Lancashire and Yorkshire.
    (Hence fevered ramping of the 2 Barnsley seats, Rotherham, Sunderland and Yvette Cooper).
    Whilst all empirical evidence suggests they are doing best in the elderly less educated coastal areas of the East of England.
    It's almost as if they want the mirror to reflect something different of themselves.

    The two Barnsley seats were definitely in the MRP. Sky News had Barnsley South at 99% to go Reform.

    Here's the top 7 seats by Reform % in the country:

    46.18% Clacton
    42.78% Ashfield
    38.36% Boston and Skegness
    35.30% Great Yarmouth
    33.21% Barnsley South
    31.80% Makerfield
    30.79% South Basildon and East Thurrock

    In the event the Labour vote held up very well in their heartlands, whereas the Tory vote completely cratered. It didn't win but I'm placing that bet (@ 8-1) every time.

    HYUFD's assertion that Reform would have won under AV in Rotherham is of course complete codswallop !

    Wonder if anyone bet against Labour in Leicester...
  • timpletimple Posts: 123
    dixiedean said:

    IanB2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    kjh said:

    algarkirk said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Don't think SKS will be in any rush to give up the voting system that gave him 411 seats on 34% if the national vote...

    There is more to elections than maths. To win 411 seats out of the 630 you stand in involves (obviously) actually coming first in a bare knuckle and bloody cage fight which anyone can join on 411 separate occasions on the same day. Even to form a bare majority government you have to win 325 of them. And you lose even if you lose by one vote.

    Anyone who can can do that in the face of the barbarian horde that makes up the UK voter deserves to win, completely regardless of what % vote they got in totality.

    The case for FPTP is remarkably strong.

    Horses win races even though the others run nearly as fast. You still have to win it
    The horse race (or alternatively the school sports race) that is often given is nonsense. It is not comparable. In a horse race if you add another horse it doesn't slow down the fastest horse. It still wins. In an election adding another candidate takes votes away from other candidates and often disproportionately, so the winner now comes second.
    That's because it's an electoral system not a tortured sport analogy.
    I've favoured multi member STV for a while now. With larger constituencies electing between 3 and 5 MP's.
    Still think Labour would have come close to a majority even on 34% by virtue of being relatively
    transfer friendly from Greens, LD's, diverse Lefties and in Scotland.
    Reform would have got more, as they ought. But suffered from no transfers.
    STV also ticks other boxes, by accident or design, which most Brits would think important.

    Most obviously, the constituency link. Indeed, for urban areas, the boundaries for cities would be more sensible, as the boundary commission could take each of the major cities, make a constituency out of it coterminous with local government boundaries, and allocate the appropriate number of MPs. If the city shrank or grew, you could add or deduct an MP, rather than carving a bit off and attached to the countryside. Seats like Romsey where a corner of Southampton left over has been tacked on, wouldn’t exist. Away from cities it wouldn’t be so neat, but you could still make a better stab at sensible areas, aligned to counties, with the flexibility offered by multi-member seats but of varying size.

    Then there’s the bar against fringe parties, which is inherent automatically because STB typically requires 15-25% of the vote in a multi-member seat to get any representation at all. We wouldn’t have the huge range of nutter parties that countries with pure PR often have.

    Then there’s the single vote - while voters are able to number all the candidates in order, marking just a first preference would be acceptable, and could even be done with an X.
    I would add wrt fringe candidates (nutters or not).
    The opportunity for their desires to be reflected in the final result by use of transfers.
    There are folk in Liverpool (believe it or not) with views to the Right of Labour. They could possibly combine to cobble together a single LD MP out of five on a good day.
    Those to the Left might get a Green or miscellaneous Lefty too.
    It might encourage more to come out and actually vote.
    STV also allows the "will" of the people to be transparent. Under FPTP we currently have a debate post election about how many people voted tactically and what that means for Labours notional vote share etc. under STV we know exactly how many were elected in 1st choice, 2nd choice etc.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Labour under Clement Attlee won the 1950 general election; Conservatives under Churchill won the 1951 general election.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,260

    GIN1138 said:

    Don't think SKS will be in any rush to give up the voting system that gave him 411 seats on 34% if the national vote...

    But that's exactly what you should be doing.

    Scotland in 2015 was the tester, but it's now been proved that the old days of the 1950s to 2010s are dying if not dead. Gone are the days of two (then three) party politics with swings of 40 seats each election.

    You can now be a sitting government and gain seats and votes to take one of your best results since 1987 and then one cycle later go to the worst defeat since the Second World War.

    If it can happen to the Conservatives, it can happen to Labour - and indeed might.

    If Starmer was sensible, he'd realise the best way forward would be to at least entertain some sort of change.
    That's not the way politicians think though and even if SKS did personally want to implement PR his backbenchers wouldn't wear it.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,033

    OT. This may already have been mentioned but if the Telegraph hadn't already jumped the shark a long time ago this would be a contender for the most stupid/brass eared article of all time

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/08/james-timpson-is-the-most-dangerous-man-in-britain/

    Next week:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/32/wallace-and-gromit-are-serial-killers/
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,548
    https://x.com/ryanobles/status/1810444530120003818

    NEW: Rep. @AOC tells us she spoke to President Biden over the weekend and it’s time to end the speculation over his future:

    “Joe Biden is our nominee. He is not leaving this race. He is in this race and I support him.”
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,947
    viewcode said:

    OT. This may already have been mentioned but if the Telegraph hadn't already jumped the shark a long time ago this would be a contender for the most stupid/brass eared article of all time

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/08/james-timpson-is-the-most-dangerous-man-in-britain/

    Next week:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/32/wallace-and-gromit-are-serial-killers/
    I am always been very suspicious of Thomas the Tank engine....
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,813
    Rocket fans can watch a SpaceX launch at half past so 10 mins or so
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu0a8byXE_4
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,548
    edited July 8
    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1810452583212777559

    PENNSYLVANIA
    Trump 48% (+5)
    Biden 43%
    .
    WISCONSIN
    Trump 47% (+3)
    Biden 44%
    .
    MICHIGAN
    Trump 45% (+1)
    Biden 44%
    .
    NEVADA
    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%
    .
    GEORGIA
    Trump 47% (+5)
    Biden 42%
    .
    ARIZONA
    Trump 46% (+4)
    Biden 42%

    .@EmersonPolling / Democrats for the Next Generation, RV, 6/30-7/2


    https://nypost.com/2024/07/08/us-news/biden-lags-behind-in-all-of-the-key-battleground-states-by-4-point-average-new-poll/
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332

    https://x.com/ryanobles/status/1810444530120003818

    NEW: Rep. @AOC tells us she spoke to President Biden over the weekend and it’s time to end the speculation over his future:

    “Joe Biden is our nominee. He is not leaving this race. He is in this race and I support him.”

    Lets wait for 10 days and see.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1810452583212777559

    PENNSYLVANIA
    Trump 48% (+5)
    Biden 43%
    .
    WISCONSIN
    Trump 47% (+3)
    Biden 44%
    .
    MICHIGAN
    Trump 45% (+1)
    Biden 44%
    .
    NEVADA
    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%
    .
    GEORGIA
    Trump 47% (+5)
    Biden 42%
    .
    ARIZONA
    Trump 46% (+4)
    Biden 42%

    .@EmersonPolling / Democrats for the Next Generation, RV, 6/30-7/2


    https://nypost.com/2024/07/08/us-news/biden-lags-behind-in-all-of-the-key-battleground-states-by-4-point-average-new-poll/

    Biden has to stand down, and fairly soon.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,033
    Yokes said:

    https://x.com/ryanobles/status/1810444530120003818

    NEW: Rep. @AOC tells us she spoke to President Biden over the weekend and it’s time to end the speculation over his future:

    “Joe Biden is our nominee. He is not leaving this race. He is in this race and I support him.”

    Lets wait for 10 days and see.
    Whilst I actually agree with you, I can't help thinking that the only thing that will happen is that he will go wheeeeee-splat.

  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    edited July 8
    I think those commenters below who say that you generally dont need ultra fast 5G for most tasks, in business terms at least, are correct.

    The reality is that the staple of connectivity in business will remain cabled connections with 5G used for mobile applications, just as 4G is now and 3G before it. There is a reason for that, coming in on a wire is more reliable and predictable than over the air.

    NI has some of the largest percentage penetration of ultra Fibre to the Premises in urban and rural, both Openreach and Alt Nets through a mix of Openreach often using the region as a test bed and a lot of public subsidy for build. Place is still a public sector dominated economy and probably will be for as far as the time eye can see. It hasnt exactly made us any more dynamic in these parts. Whilst good connectivity does matter for economies, its standalone benefits may somewhat be oversold.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,033
    edited July 8

    If you want to kill some time and go down various intriguing rabbit holes, then the list of films on Rotten Tomatoes with 100% rating is fun. Local Hero is there, along with a film called Leave No Trace, which has stayed with me since I saw it in 2018 on a BAFTA screener.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_with_a_100%_rating_on_Rotten_Tomatoes

    The 21st century ones seem mostly worthy rather than artistic. The mid-20th-century ones seem better: I was glad to see Black Narcissus, a work that makes me proud to be British. I used to share a house with a French art student amongst others, so I used to keep a list in my head of British world-class greats. Powell and Pressburger, and Hitchcock usually sufficed for films, but I had to dig out Turner for painting. There are others, but I was young and stupid and pretentious and knew nothing.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529
    The Commons is siting tomorrow from 2:30pm to elect a Speaker.

    https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/e6d0653f-760e-4b77-8563-475fe9cc43f3
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,260
    Andy_JS said:

    The Commons is siting tomorrow from 2:30pm to elect a Speaker.

    https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/e6d0653f-760e-4b77-8563-475fe9cc43f3

    Is there any doubt about Speaker Hoyle getting the nod?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,947
    Andy_JS said:


    Biden has to stand down, and fairly soon.

    Put a fork it in, its done.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529
    GIN1138 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Commons is siting tomorrow from 2:30pm to elect a Speaker.

    https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/e6d0653f-760e-4b77-8563-475fe9cc43f3

    Is there any doubt about Speaker Hoyle getting the nod?
    I don't think so.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,621
    Yokes said:

    I think those commenters below who say that you generally dont need ultra fast 5G for most tasks, in business terms at least, are correct.

    The reality is that the staple of connectivity in business will remain cabled connections with 5G used for mobile applications, just as 4G is now and 3G before it. There is a reason for that, coming in on a wire is more reliable and predictable than over the air.

    NI has some of the largest percentage penetration of ultra Fibre to the Premises in urban and rural, both Openreach and Alt Nets through a mix of Openreach often using the region as a test bed and a lot of public subsidy for build. Place is still a public sector dominated economy and probably will be for as far as the time eye can see. It hasnt exactly made us any more dynamic in these parts. Whilst good connectivity does matter for economies, its standalone benefits may somewhat be oversold.

    I would have thought that masts will be superseded by satellites fairly soon anyway.

    The excitement over lots of new development is going to lead to some serious misallocations of cash - for example, the Scottish Government has a similar attitude to Horse about masts, but this has lead them to spend millions in remote areas where you might get one or two hillwalkers or estate workers a day if you're lucky.

    A waste. Those masts would be better placed in remote towns. Better still, cash for rural areas would be devolved to local councils so they can the decide the best way to spend it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,988
    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Very low turnouts at the election. (These numbers include spoilt papers, without them the percentage will be very slightly lower).

    "Manchester Rusholme 40.0%
    Leeds South 41.7%
    Kingston upon Hull East 42.2%
    Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney 42.7%
    Tipton and Wednesbury 42.9%
    Blackley and Middleton South 43.5%
    Birmingham Erdington 43.6%
    Birmingham Ladywood 43.7%
    Wolverhampton South East 43.7%
    Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North 43.9%"

    https://vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/19012/seat-turnout-2024-ge

    Tim Farron (31061) got more votes than Doncaster North (31002), Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney (29922), Kingston upon Hull East (29816) and Manchester Rusholme (29033) total turnout.
    He's had a bit of a ride has Farron - he won in 2005 by a few hundred votes, held on in 2015 with what may have been the highest LD majority remaining in the country of around 9k after a big increase in 2010, only to get nearly wiped out in 2017 with a majority under 1k, eked out a bit more of a lead in 2019, and now has a majority of over 20k, the highest ever seen in the seat.

    Wiki says it is the only seat Labour contested but failed to retain their deposit.
    Did anyone (apart from the Speaker) get a higher percentage of the vote in their constituency ?
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,127
    GIN1138 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Commons is siting tomorrow from 2:30pm to elect a Speaker.

    https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/e6d0653f-760e-4b77-8563-475fe9cc43f3

    Is there any doubt about Speaker Hoyle getting the nod?
    Wouldn't think so. There will have to be elections for the three deputies though with Laing and Winterton stepping down and Evans being unseated.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,297
    edited July 9
    Better film lists can be found on the “They Shoot Pictures, Don’t They” website. I believe it even has exportable excel files.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,988
    Guess who was just in Moscow ?

    Orbán praises Trump as ‘the man of peace,’ says Biden will likely lose electionm
    https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/08/orban-trump-biden-election-00166745
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,795
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Mary Harrington
    @moveincircles

    Wake up babe New York City has invented bins

    Quote
    Liam Quigley
    @_elkue
    8h
    “Welcome to our trash revolution.” Mayor Adams introduces the new bin that buildings with 1-9 units will be required to use instead of loose bags of garbage"

    https://x.com/moveincircles/status/1810386106799530286

    Wait, were they seriously not using bins before now?

    That feels like its so simple it was mankind's third invention.
    General Waste invented the dust bin!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,795
    Nigelb said:

    Guess who was just in Moscow ?

    Orbán praises Trump as ‘the man of peace,’ says Biden will likely lose electionm
    https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/08/orban-trump-biden-election-00166745

    Just an Orban legend.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,607
    edited July 9

    If you want to kill some time and go down various intriguing rabbit holes, then the list of films on Rotten Tomatoes with 100% rating is fun. Local Hero is there, along with a film called Leave No Trace, which has stayed with me since I saw it in 2018 on a BAFTA screener.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_with_a_100%_rating_on_Rotten_Tomatoes

    Mädchen in Uniform isn't a bad film, but only 22 reviews. An early talkie from the Weimar period about lesbian love is more remarkable for its sympathetic portrayal than the quality of film.

    It looks like a lot of these films have small number of reviews from similar specialist audiences.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,077
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Very low turnouts at the election. (These numbers include spoilt papers, without them the percentage will be very slightly lower).

    "Manchester Rusholme 40.0%
    Leeds South 41.7%
    Kingston upon Hull East 42.2%
    Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney 42.7%
    Tipton and Wednesbury 42.9%
    Blackley and Middleton South 43.5%
    Birmingham Erdington 43.6%
    Birmingham Ladywood 43.7%
    Wolverhampton South East 43.7%
    Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North 43.9%"

    https://vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/19012/seat-turnout-2024-ge

    Tim Farron (31061) got more votes than Doncaster North (31002), Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney (29922), Kingston upon Hull East (29816) and Manchester Rusholme (29033) total turnout.
    He's had a bit of a ride has Farron - he won in 2005 by a few hundred votes, held on in 2015 with what may have been the highest LD majority remaining in the country of around 9k after a big increase in 2010, only to get nearly wiped out in 2017 with a majority under 1k, eked out a bit more of a lead in 2019, and now has a majority of over 20k, the highest ever seen in the seat.

    Wiki says it is the only seat Labour contested but failed to retain their deposit.
    Did anyone (apart from the Speaker) get a higher percentage of the vote in their constituency ?
    62% of the vote must surely be the record this Parliament. As noted elsewhere, the Lib Dems have several majorities that would normally be impregnable.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,529
    Eabhal said:

    Yokes said:

    I think those commenters below who say that you generally dont need ultra fast 5G for most tasks, in business terms at least, are correct.

    The reality is that the staple of connectivity in business will remain cabled connections with 5G used for mobile applications, just as 4G is now and 3G before it. There is a reason for that, coming in on a wire is more reliable and predictable than over the air.

    NI has some of the largest percentage penetration of ultra Fibre to the Premises in urban and rural, both Openreach and Alt Nets through a mix of Openreach often using the region as a test bed and a lot of public subsidy for build. Place is still a public sector dominated economy and probably will be for as far as the time eye can see. It hasnt exactly made us any more dynamic in these parts. Whilst good connectivity does matter for economies, its standalone benefits may somewhat be oversold.

    I would have thought that masts will be superseded by satellites fairly soon anyway.

    The excitement over lots of new development is going to lead to some serious misallocations of cash - for example, the Scottish Government has a similar attitude to Horse about masts, but this has lead them to spend millions in remote areas where you might get one or two hillwalkers or estate workers a day if you're lucky.

    A waste. Those masts would be better placed in remote towns. Better still, cash for rural areas would be devolved to local councils so they can the decide the best way to spend it.
    I doubt satellites will take over from masts, except in very rural areas.

    As for Scotland.... When I was walking the coast just over twenty years ago, there was a Scottish scheme to connect up every village with t'Internet. It meant that wherever I want, I could go into a local village building and connect cheaply to the Internet. Mobile coverage was also good - better, in fact, than many places in England. For this and other reasons, I'd ague that Scotland has a better view on rural connectivity than England do.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,077
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Don't think SKS will be in any rush to give up the voting system that gave him 411 seats on 34% if the national vote...

    But that's exactly what you should be doing.

    Scotland in 2015 was the tester, but it's now been proved that the old days of the 1950s to 2010s are dying if not dead. Gone are the days of two (then three) party politics with swings of 40 seats each election.

    You can now be a sitting government and gain seats and votes to take one of your best results since 1987 and then one cycle later go to the worst defeat since the Second World War.

    If it can happen to the Conservatives, it can happen to Labour - and indeed might.

    If Starmer was sensible, he'd realise the best way forward would be to at least entertain some sort of change.
    That's not the way politicians think though and even if SKS did personally want to implement PR his backbenchers wouldn't wear it.
    He could set up a Royal Commission to report in a tear or two while party and popular opinion thinks about the issue and gets to some form if national consensus.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,529

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    A question: is planning the biggest (or a significant) barrier to the companies providing more masts?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,621

    Eabhal said:

    Yokes said:

    I think those commenters below who say that you generally dont need ultra fast 5G for most tasks, in business terms at least, are correct.

    The reality is that the staple of connectivity in business will remain cabled connections with 5G used for mobile applications, just as 4G is now and 3G before it. There is a reason for that, coming in on a wire is more reliable and predictable than over the air.

    NI has some of the largest percentage penetration of ultra Fibre to the Premises in urban and rural, both Openreach and Alt Nets through a mix of Openreach often using the region as a test bed and a lot of public subsidy for build. Place is still a public sector dominated economy and probably will be for as far as the time eye can see. It hasnt exactly made us any more dynamic in these parts. Whilst good connectivity does matter for economies, its standalone benefits may somewhat be oversold.

    I would have thought that masts will be superseded by satellites fairly soon anyway.

    The excitement over lots of new development is going to lead to some serious misallocations of cash - for example, the Scottish Government has a similar attitude to Horse about masts, but this has lead them to spend millions in remote areas where you might get one or two hillwalkers or estate workers a day if you're lucky.

    A waste. Those masts would be better placed in remote towns. Better still, cash for rural areas would be devolved to local councils so they can the decide the best way to spend it.
    I doubt satellites will take over from masts, except in very rural areas.

    As for Scotland.... When I was walking the coast just over twenty years ago, there was a Scottish scheme to connect up every village with t'Internet. It meant that wherever I want, I could go into a local village building and connect cheaply to the Internet. Mobile coverage was also good - better, in fact, than many places in England. For this and other reasons, I'd ague that Scotland has a better view on rural connectivity than England do.
    That's great, and where you want more masts.

    It's just that they have a policy if covering every spot in the country (including areas without road access), which seems inefficient use of cash to me.

    I'm currently digging into whether the Labour reforms will help with walking and cycling provision in England. It's not just housing and energy that suffers from NIMBYism!
  • Ally_B1Ally_B1 Posts: 49
    bobbob said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
    I’ve always thought England never really gets the benefit of being so densely populated

    We should have the best and cheapest connectivity, transport, utilities etc but we never do

    Never understood why

    Maybe too much is London which is perhaps TOO densely populated ??
    Looks like there is quite a lot of the UK that lacks any mobile coverage according to this map. My own experience suggests that there is usually no mobile signal near most Heritage Railways.
    https://www.nperf.com/en/map/GB/-/24751.EE-Mobile/signal?ll=54.584796743678744&lg=-3.5815429687500004&zoom=6
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,621
    The Timpson appointment has gone down extremely well in my typically "hang 'em" FB groups. People even pondering if the balaclava scooter youths should be offered jobs and apprenticeships instead of fines and jail time.

    This is quite a dramatic change. All irrelevant in Scotland of course but still.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,316
    IanB2 said:

    As I said yesterday, the clever approach would be to launch some sort of cross-party consideration, aimed to conclude before the next election. If there’s any sort of (non-Tory) consensus, the proposal goes into the manifestos of those parties that sign up to it, for the next (FPTP) election, and if those parties win a collective majority, it gets enacted for the election after.

    That gives Labour two terms and ten years to push through its current plans, avoids another dreaded referendum, and introduces a fairer system before the Tories are likely to have resolved their identity crisis and be back in the game, and probably at the point where voters have had enough of big majority Labour.

    If by some miracle there’s pressure to go faster, then do STV for local government in the meantime.

    That’s what Labour should do, if they took a mature long-term view.

    Thanks Ian, that all sounds perfectly sensible, so I guess it has no chance of happening.

    Would it be possible for PB to pass its own law banning posters who have had a Damascene conversion now that they realise that FPTP can injure their own Party?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,529
    Ally_B1 said:

    bobbob said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
    I’ve always thought England never really gets the benefit of being so densely populated

    We should have the best and cheapest connectivity, transport, utilities etc but we never do

    Never understood why

    Maybe too much is London which is perhaps TOO densely populated ??
    Looks like there is quite a lot of the UK that lacks any mobile coverage according to this map. My own experience suggests that there is usually no mobile signal near most Heritage Railways.
    https://www.nperf.com/en/map/GB/-/24751.EE-Mobile/signal?ll=54.584796743678744&lg=-3.5815429687500004&zoom=6
    Ally_B1? Heritage railways? Does 61264 mean anything to you? ;)
  • CosmicCosmic Posts: 34
    bobbob said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
    I’ve always thought England never really gets the benefit of being so densely populated

    We should have the best and cheapest connectivity, transport, utilities etc but we never do

    Never understood why

    Maybe too much is London which is perhaps TOO densely populated ??
    Personally I think it's because English people like to live in towns of 10-50k people, quite evenly spread across the country, rather than big metropolises.

    Contrast that, to say East Asia where you often either live in a huge city with a metro system and skyscrapers, or you're a poor farmer.

    It makes all kinds of businesses, services and transport options less viable.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,189
    Andy_JS said:

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1810452583212777559

    PENNSYLVANIA
    Trump 48% (+5)
    Biden 43%
    .
    WISCONSIN
    Trump 47% (+3)
    Biden 44%
    .
    MICHIGAN
    Trump 45% (+1)
    Biden 44%
    .
    NEVADA
    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%
    .
    GEORGIA
    Trump 47% (+5)
    Biden 42%
    .
    ARIZONA
    Trump 46% (+4)
    Biden 42%

    .@EmersonPolling / Democrats for the Next Generation, RV, 6/30-7/2


    https://nypost.com/2024/07/08/us-news/biden-lags-behind-in-all-of-the-key-battleground-states-by-4-point-average-new-poll/

    Biden has to stand down, and fairly soon.
    What's interesting about those polling numbers is that apart from Nevada and Pennsylvania, the other 4 states have the same lead for Trump as the previous Emerson poll held before the debate in mid-June.

    Also the more recent Morning Consult poll has these numbers:
    Wisconsin Biden by 3
    Michigan Biden by 5
    Arizona Trump by 3
    Pennsylvania Trump by 7
    Nevada Trump by 3
    Georgia Trump by 1

    The previous Morning Consult state polling seems to have been in May.
    Wisconsin Trump by 1
    Michigan Biden by 1
    Arizona Trump by 5
    Pennsylvania Trump by 2
    Nevada Even
    Georgia Trump by 3

    So Biden polling better in 4 states now than in May, and worse in Pennsylvania and Nevada.


  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,529
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Yokes said:

    I think those commenters below who say that you generally dont need ultra fast 5G for most tasks, in business terms at least, are correct.

    The reality is that the staple of connectivity in business will remain cabled connections with 5G used for mobile applications, just as 4G is now and 3G before it. There is a reason for that, coming in on a wire is more reliable and predictable than over the air.

    NI has some of the largest percentage penetration of ultra Fibre to the Premises in urban and rural, both Openreach and Alt Nets through a mix of Openreach often using the region as a test bed and a lot of public subsidy for build. Place is still a public sector dominated economy and probably will be for as far as the time eye can see. It hasnt exactly made us any more dynamic in these parts. Whilst good connectivity does matter for economies, its standalone benefits may somewhat be oversold.

    I would have thought that masts will be superseded by satellites fairly soon anyway.

    The excitement over lots of new development is going to lead to some serious misallocations of cash - for example, the Scottish Government has a similar attitude to Horse about masts, but this has lead them to spend millions in remote areas where you might get one or two hillwalkers or estate workers a day if you're lucky.

    A waste. Those masts would be better placed in remote towns. Better still, cash for rural areas would be devolved to local councils so they can the decide the best way to spend it.
    I doubt satellites will take over from masts, except in very rural areas.

    As for Scotland.... When I was walking the coast just over twenty years ago, there was a Scottish scheme to connect up every village with t'Internet. It meant that wherever I want, I could go into a local village building and connect cheaply to the Internet. Mobile coverage was also good - better, in fact, than many places in England. For this and other reasons, I'd ague that Scotland has a better view on rural connectivity than England do.
    That's great, and where you want more masts.

    It's just that they have a policy if covering every spot in the country (including areas without road access), which seems inefficient use of cash to me.

    I'm currently digging into whether the Labour reforms will help with walking and cycling provision in England. It's not just housing and energy that suffers from NIMBYism!
    AIUI (and my native in-house expert is asleep) the problem comes with 5G which, whilst it can handle humongous data rates, has one set of frequencies that can be stopped by the tears of a passing canary.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,988
    .
    kamski said:

    Andy_JS said:

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1810452583212777559

    PENNSYLVANIA
    Trump 48% (+5)
    Biden 43%
    .
    WISCONSIN
    Trump 47% (+3)
    Biden 44%
    .
    MICHIGAN
    Trump 45% (+1)
    Biden 44%
    .
    NEVADA
    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%
    .
    GEORGIA
    Trump 47% (+5)
    Biden 42%
    .
    ARIZONA
    Trump 46% (+4)
    Biden 42%

    .@EmersonPolling / Democrats for the Next Generation, RV, 6/30-7/2


    https://nypost.com/2024/07/08/us-news/biden-lags-behind-in-all-of-the-key-battleground-states-by-4-point-average-new-poll/

    Biden has to stand down, and fairly soon.
    What's interesting about those polling numbers is that apart from Nevada and Pennsylvania, the other 4 states have the same lead for Trump as the previous Emerson poll held before the debate in mid-June.

    Also the more recent Morning Consult poll has these numbers:
    Wisconsin Biden by 3
    Michigan Biden by 5
    Arizona Trump by 3
    Pennsylvania Trump by 7
    Nevada Trump by 3
    Georgia Trump by 1

    The previous Morning Consult state polling seems to have been in May.
    Wisconsin Trump by 1
    Michigan Biden by 1
    Arizona Trump by 5
    Pennsylvania Trump by 2
    Nevada Even
    Georgia Trump by 3

    So Biden polling better in 4 states now than in May, and worse in Pennsylvania and Nevada.

    It's entirely possible that Biden could still win.
    (And given the choice between him and Trump I'd vote fur him without hesitation.)

    But that doesn't change my opinion that he ought to have stepped down.
    As it stands, he's given the Democrats little option but to rally round him - and there's a sizeable chunk of the party who would have (and had) done so anyway.

    But if he has another couple of episodes like the debate night...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,079
    Nigelb said:

    .

    kamski said:

    Andy_JS said:

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1810452583212777559

    PENNSYLVANIA
    Trump 48% (+5)
    Biden 43%
    .
    WISCONSIN
    Trump 47% (+3)
    Biden 44%
    .
    MICHIGAN
    Trump 45% (+1)
    Biden 44%
    .
    NEVADA
    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%
    .
    GEORGIA
    Trump 47% (+5)
    Biden 42%
    .
    ARIZONA
    Trump 46% (+4)
    Biden 42%

    .@EmersonPolling / Democrats for the Next Generation, RV, 6/30-7/2


    https://nypost.com/2024/07/08/us-news/biden-lags-behind-in-all-of-the-key-battleground-states-by-4-point-average-new-poll/

    Biden has to stand down, and fairly soon.
    What's interesting about those polling numbers is that apart from Nevada and Pennsylvania, the other 4 states have the same lead for Trump as the previous Emerson poll held before the debate in mid-June.

    Also the more recent Morning Consult poll has these numbers:
    Wisconsin Biden by 3
    Michigan Biden by 5
    Arizona Trump by 3
    Pennsylvania Trump by 7
    Nevada Trump by 3
    Georgia Trump by 1

    The previous Morning Consult state polling seems to have been in May.
    Wisconsin Trump by 1
    Michigan Biden by 1
    Arizona Trump by 5
    Pennsylvania Trump by 2
    Nevada Even
    Georgia Trump by 3

    So Biden polling better in 4 states now than in May, and worse in Pennsylvania and Nevada.

    It's entirely possible that Biden could still win.
    (And given the choice between him and Trump I'd vote fur him without hesitation.)

    But that doesn't change my opinion that he ought to have stepped down.
    As it stands, he's given the Democrats little option but to rally round him - and there's a sizeable chunk of the party who would have (and had) done so anyway.

    But if he has another couple of episodes like the debate night...
    He is on a downward mental spiral. (As for that matter is Trump, but Trump is probably a year or two behind Biden.)

    And that means that the next debate will probably be worse.

    Fear of Trump alone won't win the election for the Democrats. Biden's inability to recognize his mental frailties - which is not uncommon - is a major problem for the Dems.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,189
    Nigelb said:

    .

    kamski said:

    Andy_JS said:

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1810452583212777559

    PENNSYLVANIA
    Trump 48% (+5)
    Biden 43%
    .
    WISCONSIN
    Trump 47% (+3)
    Biden 44%
    .
    MICHIGAN
    Trump 45% (+1)
    Biden 44%
    .
    NEVADA
    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%
    .
    GEORGIA
    Trump 47% (+5)
    Biden 42%
    .
    ARIZONA
    Trump 46% (+4)
    Biden 42%

    .@EmersonPolling / Democrats for the Next Generation, RV, 6/30-7/2


    https://nypost.com/2024/07/08/us-news/biden-lags-behind-in-all-of-the-key-battleground-states-by-4-point-average-new-poll/

    Biden has to stand down, and fairly soon.
    What's interesting about those polling numbers is that apart from Nevada and Pennsylvania, the other 4 states have the same lead for Trump as the previous Emerson poll held before the debate in mid-June.

    Also the more recent Morning Consult poll has these numbers:
    Wisconsin Biden by 3
    Michigan Biden by 5
    Arizona Trump by 3
    Pennsylvania Trump by 7
    Nevada Trump by 3
    Georgia Trump by 1

    The previous Morning Consult state polling seems to have been in May.
    Wisconsin Trump by 1
    Michigan Biden by 1
    Arizona Trump by 5
    Pennsylvania Trump by 2
    Nevada Even
    Georgia Trump by 3

    So Biden polling better in 4 states now than in May, and worse in Pennsylvania and Nevada.

    It's entirely possible that Biden could still win.
    (And given the choice between him and Trump I'd vote fur him without hesitation.)

    But that doesn't change my opinion that he ought to have stepped down.
    As it stands, he's given the Democrats little option but to rally round him - and there's a sizeable chunk of the party who would have (and had) done so anyway.

    But if he has another couple of episodes like the debate night...
    Yes, but the latest round of polling is maybe not really bad enough to convince him. Though the Pennsylvania numbers are terrible. Hard to see Biden winning without Pennsylvania.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,296
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
    I was politely asking for more information so I could understand your position. It’s all well and good to say we need more masts, I just want to see the studies behind the claim.
    It's self-evident that connectivity here is terrible, go abroad and compare.
    Then it should be easy to back up your claim that 4/5G coverage is the main driver of economic growth.
    He is dribbling absolute bollox
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,129
    Cicero said:

    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Very low turnouts at the election. (These numbers include spoilt papers, without them the percentage will be very slightly lower).

    "Manchester Rusholme 40.0%
    Leeds South 41.7%
    Kingston upon Hull East 42.2%
    Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney 42.7%
    Tipton and Wednesbury 42.9%
    Blackley and Middleton South 43.5%
    Birmingham Erdington 43.6%
    Birmingham Ladywood 43.7%
    Wolverhampton South East 43.7%
    Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North 43.9%"

    https://vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/19012/seat-turnout-2024-ge

    Tim Farron (31061) got more votes than Doncaster North (31002), Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney (29922), Kingston upon Hull East (29816) and Manchester Rusholme (29033) total turnout.
    He's had a bit of a ride has Farron - he won in 2005 by a few hundred votes, held on in 2015 with what may have been the highest LD majority remaining in the country of around 9k after a big increase in 2010, only to get nearly wiped out in 2017 with a majority under 1k, eked out a bit more of a lead in 2019, and now has a majority of over 20k, the highest ever seen in the seat.

    Wiki says it is the only seat Labour contested but failed to retain their deposit.
    Did anyone (apart from the Speaker) get a higher percentage of the vote in their constituency ?
    62% of the vote must surely be the record this Parliament. As noted elsewhere, the Lib Dems have several majorities that would normally be impregnable.
    Walton, Bootle, Knowsley and West Derby all had a higher vote % for Labour but fewer votes. Farron beat Liverpool Riverside in % terms. Hoyle had the highest vote % overall, in 2019 he was beaten by plenty of Labour strongholds including Birmingham Ladywood where Labour went from 79.2% of the vote to within 3000 of losing the seat !
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,397
    edited July 9
    Eabhal said:

    The Timpson appointment has gone down extremely well in my typically "hang 'em" FB groups. People even pondering if the balaclava scooter youths should be offered jobs and apprenticeships instead of fines and jail time.

    This is quite a dramatic change. All irrelevant in Scotland of course but still.

    I think it's a good appointment. I do think the odds are that he quits in frustration after being thwarted by the blob and realising that his appointment was a gimmick, but I hope not.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 688
    Keith sounding like a normal person in Cardiff....

    https://x.com/adavies4/status/1810310621495222674?t=2z24SJNbBiinBQYZyrvKxw&s=19
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,397
    Penddu2 said:
    What does a normal person in Cardiff sound like?
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 688

    Penddu2 said:
    What does a normal person in Cardiff sound like?
    Nothing like Rishi Sunak.....
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,397

    Nigelb said:

    Guess who was just in Moscow ?

    Orbán praises Trump as ‘the man of peace,’ says Biden will likely lose electionm
    https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/08/orban-trump-biden-election-00166745

    Just an Orban legend.
    Someone should suspend Orban you for that pun.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,716
    I spoke to someone yesterday who was trying to make the pointbtgat the Tories would have won the Election if Reform had stood aside. Pointless trying to put him right...
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449

    Nigelb said:

    Guess who was just in Moscow ?

    Orbán praises Trump as ‘the man of peace,’ says Biden will likely lose electionm
    https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/08/orban-trump-biden-election-00166745

    Just an Orban legend.
    Someone should suspend Orban you for that pun.
    Are Biden’s problems with Sub-orban voters?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,296

    carnforth said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Labour must introduce planning reform to build more 4G/5G masts ASAP.

    Why?
    Because we are lagging behind our neighbours and mobile/internet connectivity is the driver of economic growth.
    It would be interesting to see studies on this. Once you get to a basic level of service wrt bandwidth fewer businesses can take advantage.
    4G/5G in this country is an utter joke, as a societal leveller it's essential to get as close to 100% geographic as possible.

    I know you don't understand this but at least try and keep up.
    I was politely asking for more information so I could understand your position. It’s all well and good to say we need more masts, I just want to see the studies behind the claim.
    It's self-evident that connectivity here is terrible, go abroad and compare.
    Asia certainly, europe not so much. It is a bit embarassing that we can't have solid connectivity up the east and west coast mainlines, though.
    Because the public reject the masts. Over-haul planning to allow taller sites + nearer to the railway (get NR giving up their assets) and the problem will disappear. Some green shoots on the Brighton Mainline but much more to do.
    They are as ugly as F**k, nearly as bad as satellite dishes used to be
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,397

    Nigelb said:

    Guess who was just in Moscow ?

    Orbán praises Trump as ‘the man of peace,’ says Biden will likely lose electionm
    https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/08/orban-trump-biden-election-00166745

    Just an Orban legend.
    Someone should suspend Orban you for that pun.
    Are Biden’s problems with Sub-orban voters?
    He's polling badly with voters in the Vale of GlamOrban.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,079

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Yokes said:

    I think those commenters below who say that you generally dont need ultra fast 5G for most tasks, in business terms at least, are correct.

    The reality is that the staple of connectivity in business will remain cabled connections with 5G used for mobile applications, just as 4G is now and 3G before it. There is a reason for that, coming in on a wire is more reliable and predictable than over the air.

    NI has some of the largest percentage penetration of ultra Fibre to the Premises in urban and rural, both Openreach and Alt Nets through a mix of Openreach often using the region as a test bed and a lot of public subsidy for build. Place is still a public sector dominated economy and probably will be for as far as the time eye can see. It hasnt exactly made us any more dynamic in these parts. Whilst good connectivity does matter for economies, its standalone benefits may somewhat be oversold.

    I would have thought that masts will be superseded by satellites fairly soon anyway.

    The excitement over lots of new development is going to lead to some serious misallocations of cash - for example, the Scottish Government has a similar attitude to Horse about masts, but this has lead them to spend millions in remote areas where you might get one or two hillwalkers or estate workers a day if you're lucky.

    A waste. Those masts would be better placed in remote towns. Better still, cash for rural areas would be devolved to local councils so they can the decide the best way to spend it.
    I doubt satellites will take over from masts, except in very rural areas.

    As for Scotland.... When I was walking the coast just over twenty years ago, there was a Scottish scheme to connect up every village with t'Internet. It meant that wherever I want, I could go into a local village building and connect cheaply to the Internet. Mobile coverage was also good - better, in fact, than many places in England. For this and other reasons, I'd ague that Scotland has a better view on rural connectivity than England do.
    That's great, and where you want more masts.

    It's just that they have a policy if covering every spot in the country (including areas without road access), which seems inefficient use of cash to me.

    I'm currently digging into whether the Labour reforms will help with walking and cycling provision in England. It's not just housing and energy that suffers from NIMBYism!
    AIUI (and my native in-house expert is asleep) the problem comes with 5G which, whilst it can handle humongous data rates, has one set of frequencies that can be stopped by the tears of a passing canary.
    That's mmWave 5G: I'm not sure that's been deployed yet in the UK. Most UK 5G is on very similar spectrum to to existing mobile networks.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,079

    Eabhal said:

    Yokes said:

    I think those commenters below who say that you generally dont need ultra fast 5G for most tasks, in business terms at least, are correct.

    The reality is that the staple of connectivity in business will remain cabled connections with 5G used for mobile applications, just as 4G is now and 3G before it. There is a reason for that, coming in on a wire is more reliable and predictable than over the air.

    NI has some of the largest percentage penetration of ultra Fibre to the Premises in urban and rural, both Openreach and Alt Nets through a mix of Openreach often using the region as a test bed and a lot of public subsidy for build. Place is still a public sector dominated economy and probably will be for as far as the time eye can see. It hasnt exactly made us any more dynamic in these parts. Whilst good connectivity does matter for economies, its standalone benefits may somewhat be oversold.

    I would have thought that masts will be superseded by satellites fairly soon anyway.

    The excitement over lots of new development is going to lead to some serious misallocations of cash - for example, the Scottish Government has a similar attitude to Horse about masts, but this has lead them to spend millions in remote areas where you might get one or two hillwalkers or estate workers a day if you're lucky.

    A waste. Those masts would be better placed in remote towns. Better still, cash for rural areas would be devolved to local councils so they can the decide the best way to spend it.
    I doubt satellites will take over from masts, except in very rural areas.

    As for Scotland.... When I was walking the coast just over twenty years ago, there was a Scottish scheme to connect up every village with t'Internet. It meant that wherever I want, I could go into a local village building and connect cheaply to the Internet. Mobile coverage was also good - better, in fact, than many places in England. For this and other reasons, I'd ague that Scotland has a better view on rural connectivity than England do.
    Satellites aren't going to take over from masts because - even when deployed in clusters of tens of thousands - they offer relatively limited bandwidth. They're amazing for rural areas, but they'd be terrible in London. (Doubly so because you really need a clear line-of-sight for Starlink type systems.)
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,806
    stjohn said:

    Roger said:

    If you want to kill some time and go down various intriguing rabbit holes, then the list of films on Rotten Tomatoes with 100% rating is fun. Local Hero is there, along with a film called Leave No Trace, which has stayed with me since I saw it in 2018 on a BAFTA screener.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_with_a_100%_rating_on_Rotten_Tomatoes

    Interesting. Leave No Trace was good but it wouldn't make it onto my 100 best films.
    I'm joining the conversation late but I was delighted to see one of my favourite films is on the Rotten Tomatoes best films list. 'The Swimmer' with Burt Lancaster.

    I was a teenager when I first saw it and was bowled over by it. Later, I was on a university placement and recommended the film to my supervisor when I saw that it was scheduled to be shown on TV that night. I was very enthusiastic - so he, his wife, their eight children and other extended family all planned their evening around my advice and watched the film. They were bemused my choice! And not entirely convinced!

    I think it's a great film. I didn't quite know why I liked it when I first saw it - and still don't. Anyone else a fan - or a critic?
    Yeah, I’ve always thought it was an interesting film. Stumbled on it one night in the mid 80s and was somewhat mesmerised.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,741
    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Yokes said:

    I think those commenters below who say that you generally dont need ultra fast 5G for most tasks, in business terms at least, are correct.

    The reality is that the staple of connectivity in business will remain cabled connections with 5G used for mobile applications, just as 4G is now and 3G before it. There is a reason for that, coming in on a wire is more reliable and predictable than over the air.

    NI has some of the largest percentage penetration of ultra Fibre to the Premises in urban and rural, both Openreach and Alt Nets through a mix of Openreach often using the region as a test bed and a lot of public subsidy for build. Place is still a public sector dominated economy and probably will be for as far as the time eye can see. It hasnt exactly made us any more dynamic in these parts. Whilst good connectivity does matter for economies, its standalone benefits may somewhat be oversold.

    I would have thought that masts will be superseded by satellites fairly soon anyway.

    The excitement over lots of new development is going to lead to some serious misallocations of cash - for example, the Scottish Government has a similar attitude to Horse about masts, but this has lead them to spend millions in remote areas where you might get one or two hillwalkers or estate workers a day if you're lucky.

    A waste. Those masts would be better placed in remote towns. Better still, cash for rural areas would be devolved to local councils so they can the decide the best way to spend it.
    I doubt satellites will take over from masts, except in very rural areas.

    As for Scotland.... When I was walking the coast just over twenty years ago, there was a Scottish scheme to connect up every village with t'Internet. It meant that wherever I want, I could go into a local village building and connect cheaply to the Internet. Mobile coverage was also good - better, in fact, than many places in England. For this and other reasons, I'd ague that Scotland has a better view on rural connectivity than England do.
    Satellites aren't going to take over from masts because - even when deployed in clusters of tens of thousands - they offer relatively limited bandwidth. They're amazing for rural areas, but they'd be terrible in London. (Doubly so because you really need a clear line-of-sight for Starlink type systems.)
    That 2G Starlink direct to cellphone is pretty rad though. Ruins the plot of Alive, Castaway and the like
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,205

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Yokes said:

    I think those commenters below who say that you generally dont need ultra fast 5G for most tasks, in business terms at least, are correct.

    The reality is that the staple of connectivity in business will remain cabled connections with 5G used for mobile applications, just as 4G is now and 3G before it. There is a reason for that, coming in on a wire is more reliable and predictable than over the air.

    NI has some of the largest percentage penetration of ultra Fibre to the Premises in urban and rural, both Openreach and Alt Nets through a mix of Openreach often using the region as a test bed and a lot of public subsidy for build. Place is still a public sector dominated economy and probably will be for as far as the time eye can see. It hasnt exactly made us any more dynamic in these parts. Whilst good connectivity does matter for economies, its standalone benefits may somewhat be oversold.

    I would have thought that masts will be superseded by satellites fairly soon anyway.

    The excitement over lots of new development is going to lead to some serious misallocations of cash - for example, the Scottish Government has a similar attitude to Horse about masts, but this has lead them to spend millions in remote areas where you might get one or two hillwalkers or estate workers a day if you're lucky.

    A waste. Those masts would be better placed in remote towns. Better still, cash for rural areas would be devolved to local councils so they can the decide the best way to spend it.
    I doubt satellites will take over from masts, except in very rural areas.

    As for Scotland.... When I was walking the coast just over twenty years ago, there was a Scottish scheme to connect up every village with t'Internet. It meant that wherever I want, I could go into a local village building and connect cheaply to the Internet. Mobile coverage was also good - better, in fact, than many places in England. For this and other reasons, I'd ague that Scotland has a better view on rural connectivity than England do.
    That's great, and where you want more masts.

    It's just that they have a policy if covering every spot in the country (including areas without road access), which seems inefficient use of cash to me.

    I'm currently digging into whether the Labour reforms will help with walking and cycling provision in England. It's not just housing and energy that suffers from NIMBYism!
    AIUI (and my native in-house expert is asleep) the problem comes with 5G which, whilst it can handle humongous data rates, has one set of frequencies that can be stopped by the tears of a passing canary.
    IMHO 5G isn't suitable for general roll out. 4G connections are usually reliable if you get one, 5G is temperamental as anything. The number of times I've been in city centres and had 5G signal and no actual data connection is embarrassing.

    I'm not sure what the point of faster mobile data rates is either for most users. Once you can stream 4K video reliably (which IIRC 4G will do), what else is there that really needs a faster connection?

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,607
    Penddu2 said:
    That's lovely.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,806
    Andy_JS said:

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1810452583212777559

    PENNSYLVANIA
    Trump 48% (+5)
    Biden 43%
    .
    WISCONSIN
    Trump 47% (+3)
    Biden 44%
    .
    MICHIGAN
    Trump 45% (+1)
    Biden 44%
    .
    NEVADA
    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%
    .
    GEORGIA
    Trump 47% (+5)
    Biden 42%
    .
    ARIZONA
    Trump 46% (+4)
    Biden 42%

    .@EmersonPolling / Democrats for the Next Generation, RV, 6/30-7/2


    https://nypost.com/2024/07/08/us-news/biden-lags-behind-in-all-of-the-key-battleground-states-by-4-point-average-new-poll/

    Biden has to stand down, and fairly soon.
    Yes, I agree, but equally I don’t trust most American polling. It’s usually designed to provide a result that frames somebody’s desired outcome. Push polling. Goodwin appears to be on the same track.

    You only have to look at who commissioned this one.
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