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Planning your election night fun – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,844
edited June 26 in General
Planning your election night fun – politicalbetting.com

Most of you who follow me are election nerds so bookmark this.Estimated declaration times of General Election results: Chronological listhttps://t.co/yu5i1XJDEz

Read the full story here

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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,500
    Speaking of election nights, an interesting analysis of the Biden/Trump race and the reason why Biden is still the strongest candidate in terms of beating Trump:

    https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4734129-sorry-james-carville-biden-is-the-best-bet-to-beat-trump/
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,566
    nearly first
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,500
    FPT
    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    It appears that Visegrád 24, a Polish-Based Account with over a Million Followers who posts about the War in Ukraine and Israel has been Suspended for an Unknown Reason.

    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1805791410018193414

    The account is restored, but has (temporarily ?) lost its followers.

    Possibly a false DMCA takedown.
    There’s a big row going on in the US at the moment with regard to the CNN debate tomorrow night.

    CNN have pre-emptively written to Google asserting copyright on the broadcast, threatening to persue any Youtube commentators who are running comment or fact-check follow-along streams.

    Note that this isn’t just re-broadcasting the stream, which would be a DCMA violation, but adding commentary and criticism to it, which is considered fair use under the 1st Amendment.

    Fox News tried something similar a couple of years ago after the fact, getting commentary streams taken down afterwards, but backed down when the content producers threated to sue them.

    One such commentator has now gone to the considerable effort of intending to stream his show simultaneouly on YouTube, Rumble, and Twitter.

    The issue with Youtube is that their automated DCMA process will kill the stream first and ask questions later.

    Twitter have pre-emptively said this is definitely fair use, and they won’t be taking action against anyone running commentary on the debate.

    https://x.com/timcast/status/1805383637564616917?s=12
    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1805402421595648220?s=12
    Does that mean I could rebroadcast (eg) a live F1 race if I added my own commentary ?
    This sounds like CNN pushing it too far for a political debate imo.

    I think the more interesting thing is whether Mr Trump runs away, as I am expecting - and what they do instead? Hopefully a Tub of Lard or a Humpty-Trumpty (unlikely) or Donald Shmuck puppet.
    A giant inflatable shark, with a sign saying 'ask me for a loan' would be best.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,500
    I admire TSE's stamina coming off a major health event planning to pull an all-nighter. I shall have to go to bed as I have a lot to do the following day, but I'm hoping to be up around 5.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 6,817
    edited June 26
    Meanwhile the situation in Newton Abbot remains confusing, with two tactical voting sites still non-comital about the best way to defeat the incumbent. Not exactly helpful for those of us voting by post!

    It’s interesting that Nigel Farage came here. The only one of the main leaders to do so.

    I’m expecting a Cons HOLD but a case could be made for any of Con, Lab, LibDem, Reform. The MRPs are all equally confused, slightly favouring a CON hold but also dividing between Labour and LibDem, with Reform a very close 4th. Only 9% separated the 4 parties in the most recent Focaldata MRP.



  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,509
    Here's the Keir Starmer I've known for decades

    "Crudely, on almost every political dispute over our entire adult lives, Starmer has taken a position to the left of me, starting from the time when I regarded myself as on the centre-left.

    Starmer rattled tins to raise money for Arthur Scargill’s miners’ strike, while I opposed it; he thought Neil Kinnock too right-wing and I thought Kinnock too left-wing; he boycotted The Times during the Wapping dispute and acted as legal observer for the pickets, while I wrote my first article for the paper during the same period.

    He helped edit and produce a Marxist magazine, aided the defence in the McLibel trial, joined lawyers calling for a united Ireland and marched against the Iraq war. All very different to my own politics — which, as I say, doesn’t mean I was necessarily right and he wrong.

    This difference persisted until pretty recently. He served in Jeremy Corbyn’s shadow cabinet, which I thought unconscionable; pushed for a second referendum on Brexit, which I thought deeply unwise; and ran for the leadership praising Corbyn’s agenda as an inspiration and a sure base for the party, while I thought it both practically and electorally unrealistic.

    Which leaves me with this, in many ways reassuring, view. Starmer has not lied about his politics. He is someone with a left-wing instinct; he’s not Tony Blair, he’s not even Gordon Brown."


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/heres-the-keir-starmer-ive-known-for-decades-m68sq5q2g
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 6,817
    p.s. thanks for this @TSE

    Really helpful thread
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 6,817
    Heathener said:

    Meanwhile the situation in Newton Abbot remains confusing, with two tactical voting sites still non-comital about the best way to defeat the incumbent. Not exactly helpful for those of us voting by post!

    It’s interesting that Nigel Farage came here. The only one of the main leaders to do so.

    I’m expecting a Cons HOLD but a case could be made for any of Con, Lab, LibDem, Reform. The MRPs are all equally confused, slightly favouring a CON hold but also dividing between Labour and LibDem, with Reform a very close 4th. Only 9% separated the 4 parties in the most recent Focaldata MRP.



    p.s. for the avoidance of doubt, this is one picture: a single screenshot xx
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,187
    Cicero said:

    RefUK candidate in Salisbury booed after praising Putin. https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/reform-uk-candidate-salisbury-putin-julian-malins-kc-zpbghfgd5

    I think Farage really has blown it.

    Good. We do not need wannabe Quislings in our democracy.

    FPT

    Putin's catamite is at it again.

    Ukraine should agree to a peace deal with Russia or run the risk that every young Ukrainian man will be killed, Nigel Farage has said in an escalation of his views on the war.

    The Reform UK leader said that in the interests of peace, President Zelensky should rethink his ambition to reclaim all territory lost to President Putin’s invasion. Farage also launched a fresh attack on Boris Johnson for rejecting the prospect of a peace deal, which had resulted in countless deaths.

    Johnson has championed Britain’s support for Ukraine and remains close friends with Zelensky.

    Farage said greater efforts were needed to broker negotiations between Ukraine and Russia and that Britain and other western allies were being unrealistic in their support of Zelensky’s goal to drive the invading forces back into Russia.

    He said reclaiming Crimean territory was going to be “incredibly difficult”.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/nigel-farage-zelensky-should-seek-peace-or-risk-losing-every-young-ukrainian-man-gg5bp93nt
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,509
    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,846
    PPB for Binface, please.

    Japan's major broadcaster NHK is required to give airtime to candidates running for governor of Tokyo.

    Including the local Joker cosplay candidate

    https://x.com/PopulismUpdates/status/1805624924201271769
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,139
    edited June 26
    Curse of the new thread.
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    It appears that Visegrád 24, a Polish-Based Account with over a Million Followers who posts about the War in Ukraine and Israel has been Suspended for an Unknown Reason.

    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1805791410018193414

    The account is restored, but has (temporarily ?) lost its followers.

    Possibly a false DMCA takedown.
    There’s a big row going on in the US at the moment with regard to the CNN debate tomorrow night.

    CNN have pre-emptively written to Google asserting copyright on the broadcast, threatening to persue any Youtube commentators who are running comment or fact-check follow-along streams.

    Note that this isn’t just re-broadcasting the stream, which would be a DCMA violation, but adding commentary and criticism to it, which is considered fair use under the 1st Amendment.

    Fox News tried something similar a couple of years ago after the fact, getting commentary streams taken down afterwards, but backed down when the content producers threated to sue them.

    One such commentator has now gone to the considerable effort of intending to stream his show simultaneouly on YouTube, Rumble, and Twitter.

    The issue with Youtube is that their automated DCMA process will kill the stream first and ask questions later.

    Twitter have pre-emptively said this is definitely fair use, and they won’t be taking action against anyone running commentary on the debate.

    https://x.com/timcast/status/1805383637564616917?s=12
    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1805402421595648220?s=12
    Does that mean I could rebroadcast (eg) a live F1 race if I added my own commentary ?
    If you’re in the USA, and you’re actually making critique of what’s happening in the race, and the F1 race is in a corner of the screen rather than full-screen, and you’re prepared to go to court against F1, and persuade Youtube not to take it down when F1 tells them to, then possibly. Some people actually do this, but with just a timing screen as the feed and doing their own commentary. https://youtube.com/watch?v=xNEpNQNdDOo

    This is Timcast’s video from the GOP debate a few months ago, as an example of how political commentators use this. He has five talking heads on screen, discussing what’s happening at the debate which is also on their screen. 350,000 views.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=Pggv7h7FQ6s (it’s two hours long, so randomly scan to the middle somewhere).
    Note that their source is a stream on Rumble, rather than a stream directly from Fox News which was the broadcaster for this event.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,846
    Sandpit said:

    I’m three hours ahead of most of you, so get some sleep early in the evening with the alarm for 01:50, catch the exit poll and probably drift back to sleep. Alarm again for 04:30, which is as the results start coming in after the first few that rush to be first.

    One bottle of Champagne on ice, ready to be opened and quickly consumed in response to the first Conservative gain.

    I hope you've a backup bottle, just in case you need to drown your sorrow ?
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,730
    Heathener said:

    Meanwhile the situation in Newton Abbot remains confusing, with two tactical voting sites still non-comital about the best way to defeat the incumbent. Not exactly helpful for those of us voting by post!

    It’s interesting that Nigel Farage came here. The only one of the main leaders to do so.

    I’m expecting a Cons HOLD but a case could be made for any of Con, Lab, LibDem, Reform. The MRPs are all equally confused, slightly favouring a CON hold but also dividing between Labour and LibDem, with Reform a very close 4th. Only 9% separated the 4 parties in the most recent Focaldata MRP.



    I voted (Green) in the Newton Abbot constituency in 2015. Unless there has been major demographic change in the area due to overspill from Exeter, I would say that Lib Dem is the very obvious tactical vote. Very, very obvious.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 25,511
    edited June 26
    For election night I have been saving some small glass bottles of Coke that seem to have disappeared from the shops. I do not drink, or take small-c coke, even though that might help stay awake. Coverage from Channel 4, probably, as the BBC has become too gimmicky of late, although I suspect I'll end up relying on pb as I watch all my bets go down. The problem is the gaps between the exit poll and the first few results, and later on when declarations come in so fast I can't keep up.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,139
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    I’m three hours ahead of most of you, so get some sleep early in the evening with the alarm for 01:50, catch the exit poll and probably drift back to sleep. Alarm again for 04:30, which is as the results start coming in after the first few that rush to be first.

    One bottle of Champagne on ice, ready to be opened and quickly consumed in response to the first Conservative gain.

    I hope you've a backup bottle, just in case you need to drown your sorrow ?
    That’s a bottle of whisky, which will have likely disappeared by the time the sun comes up!
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,436

    Here's the Keir Starmer I've known for decades

    "Crudely, on almost every political dispute over our entire adult lives, Starmer has taken a position to the left of me, starting from the time when I regarded myself as on the centre-left.

    Starmer rattled tins to raise money for Arthur Scargill’s miners’ strike, while I opposed it; he thought Neil Kinnock too right-wing and I thought Kinnock too left-wing; he boycotted The Times during the Wapping dispute and acted as legal observer for the pickets, while I wrote my first article for the paper during the same period.

    He helped edit and produce a Marxist magazine, aided the defence in the McLibel trial, joined lawyers calling for a united Ireland and marched against the Iraq war. All very different to my own politics — which, as I say, doesn’t mean I was necessarily right and he wrong.

    This difference persisted until pretty recently. He served in Jeremy Corbyn’s shadow cabinet, which I thought unconscionable; pushed for a second referendum on Brexit, which I thought deeply unwise; and ran for the leadership praising Corbyn’s agenda as an inspiration and a sure base for the party, while I thought it both practically and electorally unrealistic.

    Which leaves me with this, in many ways reassuring, view. Starmer has not lied about his politics. He is someone with a left-wing instinct; he’s not Tony Blair, he’s not even Gordon Brown."


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/heres-the-keir-starmer-ive-known-for-decades-m68sq5q2g

    It's a good piece, especially when you include the other side of the story. That Starmer is bright, diligent and willing to change his actions in response to evidence and experience. Someone who Finkelstein expects to disagree with but also respect.

    Like you, I'd much rather have all those positives embodied in people with centre-right instincts. But that isn't on the menu right now, and that is the Conservatives' shame.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,500
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    I’m three hours ahead of most of you, so get some sleep early in the evening with the alarm for 01:50, catch the exit poll and probably drift back to sleep. Alarm again for 04:30, which is as the results start coming in after the first few that rush to be first.

    One bottle of Champagne on ice, ready to be opened and quickly consumed in response to the first Conservative gain.

    I hope you've a backup bottle, just in case you need to drown your sorrow ?
    That’s a bottle of whisky, which will have likely disappeared by the time the sun comes up!
    I hope nobody is doing drinking games on the number of Labour gains. Even though I remain quite bearish on Labour's prospects, I think that would be unwise.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,846

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Does anyone other than BJO think Starmer will be 'Tory lite' ?
    And he won't be voting for him.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,879

    For election night I have been saving some small glass bottles of Coke that seem to have disappeared from the shops. I do not drink, or take small-c coke, even though that might help stay awake. Coverage from Channel 4, probably, as the BBC has become too gimmicky of late, although I suspect I'll end up relying on pb as I watch all my bets go down. The problem is the gaps between the exit poll and the first few results, and later on when declarations come in so fast I can't keep up.

    I'm missing this one; I've got a race a few days later. I'll stay up to see the 22.00 exit poll (surely there must be one?), then I'll go to bed. I wake up early anyway.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 6,817
    edited June 26
    Cicero said:

    RefUK candidate in Salisbury booed after praising Putin. https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/reform-uk-candidate-salisbury-putin-julian-malins-kc-zpbghfgd5

    I think Farage really has blown it.

    Good. We do not need wannabe Quislings in our democracy.

    This is where I think Leon notably misreads this country. We are not the same as mainland Europe and don’t necessarily follow ‘behind’ their trends, which is an odd thing to have to remind a so-called brexiteer.

    A good case can be made for saying that we had our rightward surge in 2016 and again in 2019, especially since migration was a big factor in those votes on top of EU centralised control.

    That we are now almost certainly about to elect a Centre-Left Government may buck the continental trend, or it may show that we are, in fact, 10 years ahead of them.

    Either way, and you can ignore the last bit, the main point is that we are not a typical mainland European country. We are an island nation with both an inward and outward facing dynamic.

    We don’t generally do extremism. Since 1945, which was exceptional, we have never elected an extreme government of Right or Left. And however much froth and bubble they produce, neither Marxists nor Fascists have succeeded in winning a majority here.

    Thankfully. Long may that continue.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,656
    @Survation
    NEW Survation Telephone Tracker for
    @GMB
    - Poll 3/4

    LAB 41% (-)
    CON 18% (-2)
    REF 14% (-1)
    LD 12% (-)
    GRE 5% (-1)
    SNP 2% (nc)
    OTH 7% (+2)

    F/w 21st - 25th June. Changes vs. 19th June 2024.

    https://x.com/Survation/status/1805856893602046259
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 19,758
    24th, like the Conservatives if anywhere has that many candidates.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,509

    Here's the Keir Starmer I've known for decades

    "Crudely, on almost every political dispute over our entire adult lives, Starmer has taken a position to the left of me, starting from the time when I regarded myself as on the centre-left.

    Starmer rattled tins to raise money for Arthur Scargill’s miners’ strike, while I opposed it; he thought Neil Kinnock too right-wing and I thought Kinnock too left-wing; he boycotted The Times during the Wapping dispute and acted as legal observer for the pickets, while I wrote my first article for the paper during the same period.

    He helped edit and produce a Marxist magazine, aided the defence in the McLibel trial, joined lawyers calling for a united Ireland and marched against the Iraq war. All very different to my own politics — which, as I say, doesn’t mean I was necessarily right and he wrong.

    This difference persisted until pretty recently. He served in Jeremy Corbyn’s shadow cabinet, which I thought unconscionable; pushed for a second referendum on Brexit, which I thought deeply unwise; and ran for the leadership praising Corbyn’s agenda as an inspiration and a sure base for the party, while I thought it both practically and electorally unrealistic.

    Which leaves me with this, in many ways reassuring, view. Starmer has not lied about his politics. He is someone with a left-wing instinct; he’s not Tony Blair, he’s not even Gordon Brown."


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/heres-the-keir-starmer-ive-known-for-decades-m68sq5q2g

    It's a good piece, especially when you include the other side of the story. That Starmer is bright, diligent and willing to change his actions in response to evidence and experience. Someone who Finkelstein expects to disagree with but also respect.

    Like you, I'd much rather have all those positives embodied in people with centre-right instincts. But that isn't on the menu right now, and that is the Conservatives' shame.
    It is, but just because it isn't on the menu doesn't mean you have to order what's top of the list.
  • Options
    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,186
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    I’m three hours ahead of most of you, so get some sleep early in the evening with the alarm for 01:50, catch the exit poll and probably drift back to sleep. Alarm again for 04:30, which is as the results start coming in after the first few that rush to be first.

    One bottle of Champagne on ice, ready to be opened and quickly consumed in response to the first Conservative gain.

    I hope you've a backup bottle, just in case you need to drown your sorrow ?
    That’s a bottle of whisky, which will have likely disappeared by the time the sun comes up!
    I hope nobody is doing drinking games on the number of Labour gains. Even though I remain quite bearish on Labour's prospects, I think that would be unwise.
    Did that in 1997. It soon became clear that it was a Very Bad Idea.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,509
    Nigelb said:

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Does anyone other than BJO think Starmer will be 'Tory lite' ?
    And he won't be voting for him.
    Yes, there are several "one nation" Tories who've convinced themselves of the same.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 6,817
    Scott_xP said:

    @Survation
    NEW Survation Telephone Tracker for
    @GMB
    - Poll 3/4

    LAB 41% (-)
    CON 18% (-2)
    REF 14% (-1)
    LD 12% (-)
    GRE 5% (-1)
    SNP 2% (nc)
    OTH 7% (+2)

    F/w 21st - 25th June. Changes vs. 19th June 2024.

    https://x.com/Survation/status/1805856893602046259

    Just about 1 week to go and still no real sign of Conservative swingback.

    Let’s see if the betting ‘Plague upon both your houses’ causes a dent to Labour
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 21,643

    Nigelb said:

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Does anyone other than BJO think Starmer will be 'Tory lite' ?
    And he won't be voting for him.
    Yes, there are several "one nation" Tories who've convinced themselves of the same.
    I'd argue most of the left/right battle is of low importance given our fiscal and demographic constraints. Competence, attention to detail and consistency are far more important and on those I suggest Starmer is very similar to successful centre right politicians. He does have different instincts but we are not in an economic situation where there is much scope for spending or tax cuts.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,213

    ydoethur said:

    I admire TSE's stamina coming off a major health event planning to pull an all-nighter. I shall have to go to bed as I have a lot to do the following day, but I'm hoping to be up around 5.

    I always have an election day siesta which gives me the energy for an all nighter.

    This will be the fourth general election in a row that I've pulled an all nighter so I can edit PB.
    As soon as the election was announced I booked off the Friday morning, and have a pretty light afternoon.

    This is our Cup Final.
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,024
    Dropped into a bit of The Wurzels there:

    "Aarrnd they be a very good indicator"
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 6,817

    Heathener said:

    Meanwhile the situation in Newton Abbot remains confusing, with two tactical voting sites still non-comital about the best way to defeat the incumbent. Not exactly helpful for those of us voting by post!

    It’s interesting that Nigel Farage came here. The only one of the main leaders to do so.

    I’m expecting a Cons HOLD but a case could be made for any of Con, Lab, LibDem, Reform. The MRPs are all equally confused, slightly favouring a CON hold but also dividing between Labour and LibDem, with Reform a very close 4th. Only 9% separated the 4 parties in the most recent Focaldata MRP.



    I voted (Green) in the Newton Abbot constituency in 2015. Unless there has been major demographic change in the area due to overspill from Exeter, I would say that Lib Dem is the very obvious tactical vote. Very, very obvious.
    Yeah it’s not obvious now, let alone ‘very very’ hence the confusion amongst tactical voting sites and MRPs. The boundary changes in particular pulled in more of a Labour demographic.

    All I would say anecdotally is that the LibDems who were campaigning hard have pulled out resources, whilst Labour who were piling everyone across to Plymouth Moor have been upping their campaigning in Newton Abbot.
    Meanwhile Nigel Farage held a rally here.

    I’m expecting a Con HOLD but it could be close across all of the 4. Certainly anything but obvious.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,139
    Nigelb said:

    PPB for Binface, please.

    Japan's major broadcaster NHK is required to give airtime to candidates running for governor of Tokyo.

    Including the local Joker cosplay candidate

    https://x.com/PopulismUpdates/status/1805624924201271769

    Binface got a PPB for the London mayoral election

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=IBM2gwJ4luE

    Yes, someone should have put up 650 deposits for a Binface Party, and he could realistically ask for a seat at one of the debates.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,879

    Nigelb said:

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Does anyone other than BJO think Starmer will be 'Tory lite' ?
    And he won't be voting for him.
    Yes, there are several "one nation" Tories who've convinced themselves of the same.
    He'll be 'Tory lite' because he's reoccupied the centre ground. Because he wants to win the election and actually be able to do stuff.

    Whereas the so-called 'Conservative' party have lurched rightwards and become unelectable.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,187

    For election night I have been saving some small glass bottles of Coke that seem to have disappeared from the shops. I do not drink, or take small-c coke, even though that might help stay awake. Coverage from Channel 4, probably, as the BBC has become too gimmicky of late, although I suspect I'll end up relying on pb as I watch all my bets go down. The problem is the gaps between the exit poll and the first few results, and later on when declarations come in so fast I can't keep up.

    Whatever you do on election night do not drink Red Bull as that counts as an endorsement of Max Verstappen.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,509

    Nigelb said:

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Does anyone other than BJO think Starmer will be 'Tory lite' ?
    And he won't be voting for him.
    Yes, there are several "one nation" Tories who've convinced themselves of the same.
    I'd argue most of the left/right battle is of low importance given our fiscal and demographic constraints. Competence, attention to detail and consistency are far more important and on those I suggest Starmer is very similar to successful centre right politicians. He does have different instincts but we are not in an economic situation where there is much scope for spending or tax cuts.
    You can suggest what you like.

    He's a socialist and that will determine the policy decisions of his government.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,509
    Roger said:

    Here's the Keir Starmer I've known for decades

    "Crudely, on almost every political dispute over our entire adult lives, Starmer has taken a position to the left of me, starting from the time when I regarded myself as on the centre-left.

    Starmer rattled tins to raise money for Arthur Scargill’s miners’ strike, while I opposed it; he thought Neil Kinnock too right-wing and I thought Kinnock too left-wing; he boycotted The Times during the Wapping dispute and acted as legal observer for the pickets, while I wrote my first article for the paper during the same period.

    He helped edit and produce a Marxist magazine, aided the defence in the McLibel trial, joined lawyers calling for a united Ireland and marched against the Iraq war. All very different to my own politics — which, as I say, doesn’t mean I was necessarily right and he wrong.

    This difference persisted until pretty recently. He served in Jeremy Corbyn’s shadow cabinet, which I thought unconscionable; pushed for a second referendum on Brexit, which I thought deeply unwise; and ran for the leadership praising Corbyn’s agenda as an inspiration and a sure base for the party, while I thought it both practically and electorally unrealistic.

    Which leaves me with this, in many ways reassuring, view. Starmer has not lied about his politics. He is someone with a left-wing instinct; he’s not Tony Blair, he’s not even Gordon Brown."


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/heres-the-keir-starmer-ive-known-for-decades-m68sq5q2g

    Being to the left of Finklestein hardly tells you much other than how journalists can make a story out of nothing. It is no more surprising than if he'd described Starmer as being to the left of Sunak which we hope with all our hearts he will be
    Roger: wrong about everything, all the time.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,879

    Nigelb said:

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Does anyone other than BJO think Starmer will be 'Tory lite' ?
    And he won't be voting for him.
    Yes, there are several "one nation" Tories who've convinced themselves of the same.
    I'd argue most of the left/right battle is of low importance given our fiscal and demographic constraints. Competence, attention to detail and consistency are far more important and on those I suggest Starmer is very similar to successful centre right politicians. He does have different instincts but we are not in an economic situation where there is much scope for spending or tax cuts.
    You can suggest what you like.

    He's a socialist and that will determine the policy decisions of his government.
    Yes, but there's sane socialism and insane socialism (which is how I'd refer to Corbyn's views). Whereas there's sane conservatism and insane conservatism. And the current Conservative party is firmly in the latter category.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,500

    For election night I have been saving some small glass bottles of Coke that seem to have disappeared from the shops. I do not drink, or take small-c coke, even though that might help stay awake. Coverage from Channel 4, probably, as the BBC has become too gimmicky of late, although I suspect I'll end up relying on pb as I watch all my bets go down. The problem is the gaps between the exit poll and the first few results, and later on when declarations come in so fast I can't keep up.

    Whatever you do on election night do not drink Red Bull as that counts as an endorsement of Max Verstappen.
    Going to be difficult to drink a McLaren though.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,139
    ydoethur said:

    For election night I have been saving some small glass bottles of Coke that seem to have disappeared from the shops. I do not drink, or take small-c coke, even though that might help stay awake. Coverage from Channel 4, probably, as the BBC has become too gimmicky of late, although I suspect I'll end up relying on pb as I watch all my bets go down. The problem is the gaps between the exit poll and the first few results, and later on when declarations come in so fast I can't keep up.

    Whatever you do on election night do not drink Red Bull as that counts as an endorsement of Max Verstappen.
    Going to be difficult to drink a McLaren though.
    Don’t drink and drive.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,846

    For election night I have been saving some small glass bottles of Coke that seem to have disappeared from the shops. I do not drink, or take small-c coke, even though that might help stay awake. Coverage from Channel 4, probably, as the BBC has become too gimmicky of late, although I suspect I'll end up relying on pb as I watch all my bets go down. The problem is the gaps between the exit poll and the first few results, and later on when declarations come in so fast I can't keep up.

    Whatever you do on election night do not drink Red Bull as that counts as an endorsement of Max Verstappen.
    It is also, appropriately, quite disgusting.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 19,758

    Here's the Keir Starmer I've known for decades

    "Crudely, on almost every political dispute over our entire adult lives, Starmer has taken a position to the left of me, starting from the time when I regarded myself as on the centre-left.

    Starmer rattled tins to raise money for Arthur Scargill’s miners’ strike, while I opposed it; he thought Neil Kinnock too right-wing and I thought Kinnock too left-wing; he boycotted The Times during the Wapping dispute and acted as legal observer for the pickets, while I wrote my first article for the paper during the same period.

    He helped edit and produce a Marxist magazine, aided the defence in the McLibel trial, joined lawyers calling for a united Ireland and marched against the Iraq war. All very different to my own politics — which, as I say, doesn’t mean I was necessarily right and he wrong.

    This difference persisted until pretty recently. He served in Jeremy Corbyn’s shadow cabinet, which I thought unconscionable; pushed for a second referendum on Brexit, which I thought deeply unwise; and ran for the leadership praising Corbyn’s agenda as an inspiration and a sure base for the party, while I thought it both practically and electorally unrealistic.

    Which leaves me with this, in many ways reassuring, view. Starmer has not lied about his politics. He is someone with a left-wing instinct; he’s not Tony Blair, he’s not even Gordon Brown."


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/heres-the-keir-starmer-ive-known-for-decades-m68sq5q2g

    This seems to be a bit blatantly obvious.

    'Starmer has been to the left of Danny the Fink for a long time.'

    Lions and Tiger and Bears, Oh MY !!!
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,213

    Nigelb said:

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Does anyone other than BJO think Starmer will be 'Tory lite' ?
    And he won't be voting for him.
    Yes, there are several "one nation" Tories who've convinced themselves of the same.
    I'd argue most of the left/right battle is of low importance given our fiscal and demographic constraints. Competence, attention to detail and consistency are far more important and on those I suggest Starmer is very similar to successful centre right politicians. He does have different instincts but we are not in an economic situation where there is much scope for spending or tax cuts.
    You can suggest what you like.

    He's a socialist and that will determine the policy decisions of his government.
    A Socialist, yes (that is how he self identifies) but a pragmatic one, a patriot and capable of managing competing priorities.

    A bit similar to another charisma free London Lawyer who had a landslide victory.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,361
    edited June 26
    Scott_xP said:

    @Survation
    NEW Survation Telephone Tracker for
    @GMB
    - Poll 3/4

    LAB 41% (-)
    CON 18% (-2)
    REF 14% (-1)
    LD 12% (-)
    GRE 5% (-1)
    SNP 2% (nc)
    OTH 7% (+2)

    F/w 21st - 25th June. Changes vs. 19th June 2024.

    https://x.com/Survation/status/1805856893602046259

    Broken, sleazy, everyone but Labour and Others on the slide?

    (With apologies to Sunil)
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,384
    Scott_xP said:

    @Survation
    NEW Survation Telephone Tracker for
    @GMB
    - Poll 3/4

    LAB 41% (-)
    CON 18% (-2)
    REF 14% (-1)
    LD 12% (-)
    GRE 5% (-1)
    SNP 2% (nc)
    OTH 7% (+2)

    F/w 21st - 25th June. Changes vs. 19th June 2024.

    https://x.com/Survation/status/1805856893602046259

    Others surging. Plaid Cymru, Yorkshire Party or Hamas?
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 21,643

    Nigelb said:

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Does anyone other than BJO think Starmer will be 'Tory lite' ?
    And he won't be voting for him.
    Yes, there are several "one nation" Tories who've convinced themselves of the same.
    I'd argue most of the left/right battle is of low importance given our fiscal and demographic constraints. Competence, attention to detail and consistency are far more important and on those I suggest Starmer is very similar to successful centre right politicians. He does have different instincts but we are not in an economic situation where there is much scope for spending or tax cuts.
    You can suggest what you like.

    He's a socialist and that will determine the policy decisions of his government.
    Maybe 5-10%. Our demographics and finances,75% +.

    Rishi is a small state capitalist, but can't do what he wants because of our demographics and finances.
    Truss is a small state capitalist, tried and failed to do what she wants because of our demographics and finances.
    Boris, didn't care, and let the government be run according to our demographics and finances.

    Starmer is wise enough to realise what he can't change, and will let the governmnet be run according to our demographics and finances. But he does also care and will give it more thought and attention.

    There will be an improvement, how significant, sustainable or sufficient I don't know, but after the last few years I will be happy enough with going in the right direction.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,846
    ydoethur said:

    For election night I have been saving some small glass bottles of Coke that seem to have disappeared from the shops. I do not drink, or take small-c coke, even though that might help stay awake. Coverage from Channel 4, probably, as the BBC has become too gimmicky of late, although I suspect I'll end up relying on pb as I watch all my bets go down. The problem is the gaps between the exit poll and the first few results, and later on when declarations come in so fast I can't keep up.

    Whatever you do on election night do not drink Red Bull as that counts as an endorsement of Max Verstappen.
    Going to be difficult to drink a McLaren though.
    Find some Papaya juice.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,187
    Nigelb said:

    For election night I have been saving some small glass bottles of Coke that seem to have disappeared from the shops. I do not drink, or take small-c coke, even though that might help stay awake. Coverage from Channel 4, probably, as the BBC has become too gimmicky of late, although I suspect I'll end up relying on pb as I watch all my bets go down. The problem is the gaps between the exit poll and the first few results, and later on when declarations come in so fast I can't keep up.

    Whatever you do on election night do not drink Red Bull as that counts as an endorsement of Max Verstappen.
    It is also, appropriately, quite disgusting.
    Yup, I drank some circa 2008, never again.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 6,817

    Nigelb said:

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Does anyone other than BJO think Starmer will be 'Tory lite' ?
    And he won't be voting for him.
    Yes, there are several "one nation" Tories who've convinced themselves of the same.
    He'll be 'Tory lite' because he's reoccupied the centre ground. Because he wants to win the election and actually be able to do stuff.

    Whereas the so-called 'Conservative' party have lurched rightwards and become unelectable.
    I think some of the tories incl on here are going through a bereavement process.

    They’ve gone from defending the indefensible to telling themselves everything will be alright in 2029, to jumping up and down about what a Socialist nasty Mr Starmer will prove to be.

    They have only themselves to blame for their mess and the sooner they stop pointing the finger elsewhere and sort themselves out, the better.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 19,379
    Nigelb said:

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Does anyone other than BJO think Starmer will be 'Tory lite' ?
    And he won't be voting for him.
    Since Braverman Patel Rwanda and Brexit it's difficult to remember what 'normal' Tory looks like
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,173
    I have never drunk an energy drink. Unless Lucozade as a sick child counts.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,879
    Heathener said:


    Nigelb said:

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Does anyone other than BJO think Starmer will be 'Tory lite' ?
    And he won't be voting for him.
    Yes, there are several "one nation" Tories who've convinced themselves of the same.
    He'll be 'Tory lite' because he's reoccupied the centre ground. Because he wants to win the election and actually be able to do stuff.

    Whereas the so-called 'Conservative' party have lurched rightwards and become unelectable.
    I think some of the tories incl on here are going through a bereavement process.

    They’ve gone from defending the indefensible to telling themselves everything will be alright in 2029, to jumping up and down about what a Socialist nasty Mr Starmer will prove to be.

    They have only themselves to blame for their mess and the sooner they stop pointing the finger elsewhere and sort themselves out, the better.
    The Conservative Party needs to ask themselves why they're in this situation. You can blame individuals, or say it's a tired government after nearly 15 years in power, but the problem goes much deeper than that IMO.

    I fear that after the election the Conservatives will double-down on what they're doing at the moment, and further damage a brand that is currently lower than dogmuck.

    They need a Cameron-like figure to start the process of fixing the damage.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,500

    I have never drunk an energy drink. Unless Lucozade as a sick child counts.

    Interesting question: would lucozade count as a child's sick?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,361
    Looking forward to election night.

    Sunak has really messed up with his choice of election date - clashes with a long-planned theatre trip to London. I will be on the train in the cell-phone black hole west of Salisbury for the exit poll.

    Should be home by 11:00pm though. No chance for an afternoon siesta apart from a doze on the train maybe. Will aim to stay up until 4:00 or 5:00am to see the fun (hopefully).
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,384

    Nigelb said:

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Does anyone other than BJO think Starmer will be 'Tory lite' ?
    And he won't be voting for him.
    Yes, there are several "one nation" Tories who've convinced themselves of the same.
    I'd argue most of the left/right battle is of low importance given our fiscal and demographic constraints. Competence, attention to detail and consistency are far more important and on those I suggest Starmer is very similar to successful centre right politicians. He does have different instincts but we are not in an economic situation where there is much scope for spending or tax cuts.
    You can suggest what you like.

    He's a socialist and that will determine the policy decisions of his government.
    Just rejoice at that news.

    Change is coming.

    The country will be in a better place by the end of this parliament. And better again by the end of a second term.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,430
    edited June 26
    Election night won't be fun. Once the exit poll is out it's game over. The BBC will be stocking up.on champagne however
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 21,643
    Nigelb said:

    For election night I have been saving some small glass bottles of Coke that seem to have disappeared from the shops. I do not drink, or take small-c coke, even though that might help stay awake. Coverage from Channel 4, probably, as the BBC has become too gimmicky of late, although I suspect I'll end up relying on pb as I watch all my bets go down. The problem is the gaps between the exit poll and the first few results, and later on when declarations come in so fast I can't keep up.

    Whatever you do on election night do not drink Red Bull as that counts as an endorsement of Max Verstappen.
    It is also, appropriately, quite disgusting.
    It needs a double vodka to balance the flavour imo.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 12,365
    Heathener said:

    Cicero said:

    RefUK candidate in Salisbury booed after praising Putin. https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/reform-uk-candidate-salisbury-putin-julian-malins-kc-zpbghfgd5

    I think Farage really has blown it.

    Good. We do not need wannabe Quislings in our democracy.

    This is where I think Leon notably misreads this country. We are not the same as mainland Europe and don’t necessarily follow ‘behind’ their trends, which is an odd thing to have to remind a so-called brexiteer.

    A good case can be made for saying that we had our rightward surge in 2016 and again in 2019, especially since migration was a big factor in those votes on top of EU centralised control.

    That we are now almost certainly about to elect a Centre-Left Government may buck the continental trend, or it may show that we are, in fact, 10 years ahead of them.

    Either way, and you can ignore the last bit, the main point is that we are not a typical mainland European country. We are an island nation with both an inward and outward facing dynamic.

    We don’t generally do extremism. Since 1945, which was exceptional, we have never elected an extreme government of Right or Left. And however much froth and bubble they produce, neither Marxists nor Fascists have succeeded in winning a majority here.

    Thankfully. Long may that continue.
    I'm sad to see people just buying into the narrative of there being a significant rightward surge in Europe in general.
    As I attempted to show shortly after the results, there were countervailing currents in Europe. But people focus selectively so they highlighted the countries that fitted the narrative and stayed quiet on the ones that flowed the other direction.
    And before anyone says, it's not just that some countries get inherently more focus. In the past few years, Sweden had a lot of focus when it was going towards the right. In this election the result was a kind of stasis so oops we don't analyse that result.

    People invested in politics get sucked in my these narratives because they want to feel something is happening. It's easier to justify the investment of time and emotion when you can kid yourself that a great historical tide is flowing even if in reality it's just the waves on the shore.

    And of course, for some it's wishful thinking. You see it a lot on here. The country's about to take a moderate turn to the left. But where does that leave my "EVERYTHING FLOWING TO THE RIGHT!" story? Oh, easy, this incoming government will fail fast and the people will quickly wake up to our Lord and Saviour, Sir Nigel of Faragistan. And so a future that is so obviously unwritten collapses, in their minds, to a single inevitable conclusion.
    The obvious wrongness of this sense of inevitability ought to lead us to question every step they've made to get there. Including the recent past. What happened in the European elections is not what these people say happened. The picture is considerably more mixed and nuanced. But one of two blaring cakeholes shout a lie and everyone sort of absorbs it as gospel without checking.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 11,043

    Scott_xP said:

    @Survation
    NEW Survation Telephone Tracker for
    @GMB
    - Poll 3/4

    LAB 41% (-)
    CON 18% (-2)
    REF 14% (-1)
    LD 12% (-)
    GRE 5% (-1)
    SNP 2% (nc)
    OTH 7% (+2)

    F/w 21st - 25th June. Changes vs. 19th June 2024.

    https://x.com/Survation/status/1805856893602046259

    Broken, sleazy, everyone but Labour and Others on the slide?

    (With apologies to Sunil)
    And Lib Dems
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,213

    Election night won't be fun. Once the exit poll is out it's game over. The BBC will be stocking up.on champagne however

    I like the sound of an exotic poll. Binface takes Richmond?
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,436
    MattW said:

    Here's the Keir Starmer I've known for decades

    "Crudely, on almost every political dispute over our entire adult lives, Starmer has taken a position to the left of me, starting from the time when I regarded myself as on the centre-left.

    Starmer rattled tins to raise money for Arthur Scargill’s miners’ strike, while I opposed it; he thought Neil Kinnock too right-wing and I thought Kinnock too left-wing; he boycotted The Times during the Wapping dispute and acted as legal observer for the pickets, while I wrote my first article for the paper during the same period.

    He helped edit and produce a Marxist magazine, aided the defence in the McLibel trial, joined lawyers calling for a united Ireland and marched against the Iraq war. All very different to my own politics — which, as I say, doesn’t mean I was necessarily right and he wrong.

    This difference persisted until pretty recently. He served in Jeremy Corbyn’s shadow cabinet, which I thought unconscionable; pushed for a second referendum on Brexit, which I thought deeply unwise; and ran for the leadership praising Corbyn’s agenda as an inspiration and a sure base for the party, while I thought it both practically and electorally unrealistic.

    Which leaves me with this, in many ways reassuring, view. Starmer has not lied about his politics. He is someone with a left-wing instinct; he’s not Tony Blair, he’s not even Gordon Brown."


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/heres-the-keir-starmer-ive-known-for-decades-m68sq5q2g

    This seems to be a bit blatantly obvious.

    'Starmer has been to the left of Danny the Fink for a long time.'

    Lions and Tiger and Bears, Oh MY !!!
    It's the standard first half of a column; here is the case against X. The column itself then does the classic pivot, "but despite all that..."

    Yes, he's left wing- more than Brown, much more than Blair. But a decisive slice of the electorate seems to have decided that that is preferable to right wingers, when those right wingers are a parade of crooks, nutters and nobodies. And the electorate are right, even when they're wrong.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,139
    edited June 26

    Nigelb said:

    For election night I have been saving some small glass bottles of Coke that seem to have disappeared from the shops. I do not drink, or take small-c coke, even though that might help stay awake. Coverage from Channel 4, probably, as the BBC has become too gimmicky of late, although I suspect I'll end up relying on pb as I watch all my bets go down. The problem is the gaps between the exit poll and the first few results, and later on when declarations come in so fast I can't keep up.

    Whatever you do on election night do not drink Red Bull as that counts as an endorsement of Max Verstappen.
    It is also, appropriately, quite disgusting.
    It needs a double vodka to balance the flavour imo.
    They’re really dangerous! The first one just goes straight down, and so you take a second, then before you know it you’ve had eight of them and are totally screwed up for the next 48 hours. Memories of Ibiza 2001 :D
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,361
    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Survation
    NEW Survation Telephone Tracker for
    @GMB
    - Poll 3/4

    LAB 41% (-)
    CON 18% (-2)
    REF 14% (-1)
    LD 12% (-)
    GRE 5% (-1)
    SNP 2% (nc)
    OTH 7% (+2)

    F/w 21st - 25th June. Changes vs. 19th June 2024.

    https://x.com/Survation/status/1805856893602046259

    Broken, sleazy, everyone but Labour and Others on the slide?

    (With apologies to Sunil)
    And Lib Dems
    Good point. I am a poor substitute for The Sunil.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,230

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Socialism or incompetence. Pick your poison.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,230

    I have never drunk an energy drink. Unless Lucozade as a sick child counts.

    Would you like a medal?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,361

    Election night won't be fun. Once the exit poll is out it's game over. The BBC will be stocking up.on champagne however

    You must be joking! How many Portillo moments do we have to look forward to?

    How many cabinet members will lose their seats, I wonder?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,213
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    For election night I have been saving some small glass bottles of Coke that seem to have disappeared from the shops. I do not drink, or take small-c coke, even though that might help stay awake. Coverage from Channel 4, probably, as the BBC has become too gimmicky of late, although I suspect I'll end up relying on pb as I watch all my bets go down. The problem is the gaps between the exit poll and the first few results, and later on when declarations come in so fast I can't keep up.

    Whatever you do on election night do not drink Red Bull as that counts as an endorsement of Max Verstappen.
    It is also, appropriately, quite disgusting.
    It needs a double vodka to balance the flavour imo.
    They’re really dangerous! The first one just goes straight down, and so you take a second, then before you know it you’ve had eight of them and are totally screwed up for the next 48 hours. Memories of Ibiza 2001.
    I keep some in the car for long journeys back and forth to the IoW.

    It's not do bad.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,139
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    For election night I have been saving some small glass bottles of Coke that seem to have disappeared from the shops. I do not drink, or take small-c coke, even though that might help stay awake. Coverage from Channel 4, probably, as the BBC has become too gimmicky of late, although I suspect I'll end up relying on pb as I watch all my bets go down. The problem is the gaps between the exit poll and the first few results, and later on when declarations come in so fast I can't keep up.

    Whatever you do on election night do not drink Red Bull as that counts as an endorsement of Max Verstappen.
    It is also, appropriately, quite disgusting.
    It needs a double vodka to balance the flavour imo.
    They’re really dangerous! The first one just goes straight down, and so you take a second, then before you know it you’ve had eight of them and are totally screwed up for the next 48 hours. Memories of Ibiza 2001.
    I keep some in the car for long journeys back and forth to the IoW.

    It's not do bad.
    Hopefully without the double vodkas!
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,031
    This perfectly summarises the lunacy and idiocy of our immigration debate. A long and worthy FT article about the necessity for immigration, and how we must therefore have an honest debate about immigration

    Fair enough. But at the end it says “comments are not enabled for this article”. So we’re not actually allowed to have an honest debate about immigration; presumably the FT is scared someone - everyone - will say “er we don’t want so much immigration”. Great. Thanks for the honest debate

    https://www.ft.com/content/b445db9a-0583-452b-bb90-3d8ca1ebf3ba
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,361
    edited June 26

    I have never drunk an energy drink. Unless Lucozade as a sick child counts.

    Beer is an energy drink - a pint of ale contains c. 200 kCal ;-)
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 12,129
    Heathener said:


    Nigelb said:

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Does anyone other than BJO think Starmer will be 'Tory lite' ?
    And he won't be voting for him.
    Yes, there are several "one nation" Tories who've convinced themselves of the same.
    He'll be 'Tory lite' because he's reoccupied the centre ground. Because he wants to win the election and actually be able to do stuff.

    Whereas the so-called 'Conservative' party have lurched rightwards and become unelectable.
    I think some of the tories incl on here are going through a bereavement process.

    They’ve gone from defending the indefensible to telling themselves everything will be alright in 2029, to jumping up and down about what a Socialist nasty Mr Starmer will prove to be.

    They have only themselves to blame for their mess and the sooner they stop pointing the finger elsewhere and sort themselves out, the better.
    For the umpteenth time: the Tories have not lurched rightwards.

    The process should be:
    centre-right government gets elected > centre-right government governs competently in centre-right fashion > centre-right things happen > if voters approve, centre-right government gets re-elected


    Instead, we've had:
    2019 Cons get elected > 2019 Cons govern incompetently > state drifts leftwards > in reaction to which, various Conservatives both within and without government call for increasingly rightward things > but nothing actually happens > neither centrists not right wingers are happy > 2024 Cons get obliterated at polls

    We don't need the Cons to tack to the left nor to the right. We just need them to be more competent.

    In defence of the current government, a handful of low-key competent things have indeed happened, including the first thing Sunak achieved when coming into office (something to do with Northern Ireland?). But the shambolic has tended to outweigh the good.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,436
    Foxy said:

    Election night won't be fun. Once the exit poll is out it's game over. The BBC will be stocking up.on champagne however

    I like the sound of an exotic poll. Binface takes Richmond?
    A Joe Exotic poll. Losing candidates are fed to tigers.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 19,758
    A short video with Ed & Emily Davey about their role as carers, with Beth Rigby.

    It's only 1:19, so I hope it's a teaser for a longer interview.

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1805495751495066087
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,247
    edited June 26

    Heathener said:


    Nigelb said:

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Does anyone other than BJO think Starmer will be 'Tory lite' ?
    And he won't be voting for him.
    Yes, there are several "one nation" Tories who've convinced themselves of the same.
    He'll be 'Tory lite' because he's reoccupied the centre ground. Because he wants to win the election and actually be able to do stuff.

    Whereas the so-called 'Conservative' party have lurched rightwards and become unelectable.
    I think some of the tories incl on here are going through a bereavement process.

    They’ve gone from defending the indefensible to telling themselves everything will be alright in 2029, to jumping up and down about what a Socialist nasty Mr Starmer will prove to be.

    They have only themselves to blame for their mess and the sooner they stop pointing the finger elsewhere and sort themselves out, the better.
    The Conservative Party needs to ask themselves why they're in this situation. You can blame individuals, or say it's a tired government after nearly 15 years in power, but the problem goes much deeper than that IMO.

    I fear that after the election the Conservatives will double-down on what they're doing at the moment, and further damage a brand that is currently lower than dogmuck.

    They need a Cameron-like figure to start the process of fixing the damage.
    Tommy Tugs?

    But they'll pick the odious Jenrick, the vile Braverman or the entitled Badenoch. Priti Patel might end up as the sensible compromise candidate. You could probably do much worse.
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 19,771

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    All that is true.

    The problem is that Starmer is still the least worst option.

    Yes he might be to the left of Gordon Brown, but the Tories have so lost their way they are too.

    Under Rishi Sunak the Tories have objectively put up taxes and increased redistribution (welfare) to higher rates than under Gordon Brown.

    The only difference is that while Labour believe in redistributing from rich to poor, the Tories have been taken over by a cult of redistribution from workers to pensioners.

    I don't particularly want higher taxes. But if I'm going to be taxed either way, I'd rather my taxes go to those who need it more, than those who live rent free and asset rich and don't need the extra income.

    Plus with Starmer in office it gives the Tories space to figure out why they've lost so badly and how to win back voters in the future.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,243
    Nigelb said:

    PPB for Binface, please.

    Japan's major broadcaster NHK is required to give airtime to candidates running for governor of Tokyo.

    Including the local Joker cosplay candidate

    https://x.com/PopulismUpdates/status/1805624924201271769

    The best use of the free NHK slot was by the anti-license-fee party, the Party to Protect the People from NHK.

    This time around they're taking advantage of the free poster display candidates get all over Tokyo. They've registered 22 candidates at a cost of 3 million yen each, and they're selling the poster spaces to the highest bidder. They've variously being used to advertise brothels, ponzi schemes or just somebody who was really proud of the picture his kid drew and wanted everyone to see it.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,792

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Socialism or incompetence. Pick your poison.
    With Labour, we'll have both.

    Every Labour Government leaves office with unemployment higher than it inherited.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,213
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    For election night I have been saving some small glass bottles of Coke that seem to have disappeared from the shops. I do not drink, or take small-c coke, even though that might help stay awake. Coverage from Channel 4, probably, as the BBC has become too gimmicky of late, although I suspect I'll end up relying on pb as I watch all my bets go down. The problem is the gaps between the exit poll and the first few results, and later on when declarations come in so fast I can't keep up.

    Whatever you do on election night do not drink Red Bull as that counts as an endorsement of Max Verstappen.
    It is also, appropriately, quite disgusting.
    It needs a double vodka to balance the flavour imo.
    They’re really dangerous! The first one just goes straight down, and so you take a second, then before you know it you’ve had eight of them and are totally screwed up for the next 48 hours. Memories of Ibiza 2001.
    I keep some in the car for long journeys back and forth to the IoW.

    It's not do bad.
    Hopefully without the double vodkas!
    Never drink the stuff. Single Malt or VSOP Brandy for us 1%ers!

    Not mixed with Red Bull obviously.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,857
    In some ways regretfully I'll be at a count, so won't have a great deal of time to follow other declarations and see the big names tumble.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 6,817
    edited June 26
    Energy drinks? Freshly-squeezed orange juice for me but it’s pricey. You can get it in certain Sainsbury’s outlets. Not the M&S already-bottled kind (which is decent), but with actual oranges that you watch being crushed before your eyes. Twickenham station Sainsbury’s outlet has one, maybe others? And I’m sure lots of you will know cafes and shops that do it.

    Anyway, I’m rambling and I’m off out.

    xx
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,857

    Nigelb said:

    PPB for Binface, please.

    Japan's major broadcaster NHK is required to give airtime to candidates running for governor of Tokyo.

    Including the local Joker cosplay candidate

    https://x.com/PopulismUpdates/status/1805624924201271769

    The best use of the free NHK slot was by the anti-license-fee party, the Party to Protect the People from NHK.

    This time around they're taking advantage of the free poster display candidates get all over Tokyo. They've registered 22 candidates at a cost of 3 million yen each, and they're selling the poster spaces to the highest bidder. They've variously being used to advertise brothels, ponzi schemes or just somebody who was really proud of the picture his kid drew and wanted everyone to see it.
    Brilliant.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,656
    Cookie said:


    Instead, we've had:
    2019 Cons get elected > 2019 Cons govern incompetently > state drifts leftwards > in reaction to which, various Conservatives both within and without government call for increasingly rightward things > but nothing actually happens > neither centrists not right wingers are happy > 2024 Cons get obliterated at polls

    2019 fantasists offer the electorate the moon on a stick and get elected > moon not delivered, some element of stick > 2024 fantasists get obliterated
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,568

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Socialism or incompetence. Pick your poison.
    Incompetence please.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,436

    Heathener said:


    Nigelb said:

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Does anyone other than BJO think Starmer will be 'Tory lite' ?
    And he won't be voting for him.
    Yes, there are several "one nation" Tories who've convinced themselves of the same.
    He'll be 'Tory lite' because he's reoccupied the centre ground. Because he wants to win the election and actually be able to do stuff.

    Whereas the so-called 'Conservative' party have lurched rightwards and become unelectable.
    I think some of the tories incl on here are going through a bereavement process.

    They’ve gone from defending the indefensible to telling themselves everything will be alright in 2029, to jumping up and down about what a Socialist nasty Mr Starmer will prove to be.

    They have only themselves to blame for their mess and the sooner they stop pointing the finger elsewhere and sort themselves out, the better.
    The Conservative Party needs to ask themselves why they're in this situation. You can blame individuals, or say it's a tired government after nearly 15 years in power, but the problem goes much deeper than that IMO.

    I fear that after the election the Conservatives will double-down on what they're doing at the moment, and further damage a brand that is currently lower than dogmuck.

    They need a Cameron-like figure to start the process of fixing the damage.
    Tommy Tugs?

    But they'll pick the odious Jenrick, the vile Braverman or the entitled Badenoch. Priti Patel might end up as the sensible compromise candidate. You could probably do much worse.
    When the pupil is ready, the teacher appears.

    At the moment, the Conservative Party simply isn't ready to be led in a way that the electorate will respond to positively.

    That's likely to change, eventually. It could happen immediately after the coming tonking, but that's pretty unlikely. In recent cycles, it has taken several defeats. The more interesting question this time is how little Conservative Party will be left when it comes to its senses.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,656

    Every Labour Government leaves office with unemployment higher than it inherited.

    This time that includes much of the current cabinet

    And there was much rejoicing...
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,857

    Election night won't be fun. Once the exit poll is out it's game over. The BBC will be stocking up.on champagne however

    You must be joking! How many Portillo moments do we have to look forward to?

    How many cabinet members will lose their seats, I wonder?
    Sadly most Cabinet Members are in seats that are usually rock solid safe, so unless it's sn extinction level event the majority should retain their seats.

    But we should get a good handful at the very least.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,213

    Scott_xP said:

    @Survation
    NEW Survation Telephone Tracker for
    @GMB
    - Poll 3/4

    LAB 41% (-)
    CON 18% (-2)
    REF 14% (-1)
    LD 12% (-)
    GRE 5% (-1)
    SNP 2% (nc)
    OTH 7% (+2)

    F/w 21st - 25th June. Changes vs. 19th June 2024.

    https://x.com/Survation/status/1805856893602046259

    Others surging. Plaid Cymru, Yorkshire Party or Hamas?
    Independents have a lot of posters up in Leicester, and Vaz office been very busy everytime I pass.

    I think this will be the lowest Con+Lab share in modern history.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 12,365

    Foxy said:

    Election night won't be fun. Once the exit poll is out it's game over. The BBC will be stocking up.on champagne however

    I like the sound of an exotic poll. Binface takes Richmond?
    A Joe Exotic poll. Losing candidates are fed to tigers.
    I don't often call for people to be banned on here, but mods, please, this is disgusting animal cruelty.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,879
    In other news, VW and Rivian are partially joining forces:

    https://x.com/VWGroup/status/1805845370649432499
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,792
    edited June 26
    Scott_xP said:

    Every Labour Government leaves office with unemployment higher than it inherited.

    This time that includes much of the current cabinet

    And there was much rejoicing...
    A rather twattish point, even by your high standard of twattish points.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 12,129
    Scott_xP said:

    Cookie said:


    Instead, we've had:
    2019 Cons get elected > 2019 Cons govern incompetently > state drifts leftwards > in reaction to which, various Conservatives both within and without government call for increasingly rightward things > but nothing actually happens > neither centrists not right wingers are happy > 2024 Cons get obliterated at polls

    2019 fantasists offer the electorate the moon on a stick and get elected > moon not delivered, some element of stick > 2024 fantasists get obliterated
    In defence of the 2019 Cons:
    1) Almost anything was better than Corbyn, and
    2) While Levelling Up was, er, a challenging aim, it was a worthwhile one and one I believed in and still do. But a challenging aim was rendered pretty much impossible by Covid and Ukraine, which have impoverished us in a way utterly unanticipated.

    Still, at least the 2019 Cons purported to believe in Levelling Up. That pretty much died with the cancellation of HS2 (actually probably with the election of Rishi Sunak - ironically the first Northern MP we've had since Tony Blair).
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 19,771

    Nigelb said:

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Does anyone other than BJO think Starmer will be 'Tory lite' ?
    And he won't be voting for him.
    Yes, there are several "one nation" Tories who've convinced themselves of the same.
    He'll be 'Tory lite' because he's reoccupied the centre ground. Because he wants to win the election and actually be able to do stuff.

    Whereas the so-called 'Conservative' party have lurched rightwards and become unelectable.
    Is it the Tories increasing taxes to a higher rate than Gordon Brown you consider lurching rightwards?

    Or is it the Tories increasing redistribution (welfare) to a higher rate than Gordon Browm you consider lurching rightwards?

    The problem is the Tories have neither lurched rightwards not leftwards, doing either would probably be less bad than what's happened.

    They've simply lurched.

    They've totally lost control and lurched from one scandal to the next, one event to the next, with no grip, no control and no clear long term economic plan.

    Partially that's out of their control to be fair, the events of the last few years have been manic, but still they're tired, lost, dazed and no longer fit for office.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,500
    edited June 26

    Scott_xP said:

    Every Labour Government leaves office with unemployment higher than it inherited.

    This time that includes much of the current cabinet

    And there was much rejoicing...
    A rather twattish point, even by your high standard of twattish points.
    To be fair, the more I look at the last Commons, the more I am reminded of Lloyd George's famous bon mot on the Lords: '500 men chosen accidentally from among the unemployed.'
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,399
    Heathener said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Survation
    NEW Survation Telephone Tracker for
    @GMB
    - Poll 3/4

    LAB 41% (-)
    CON 18% (-2)
    REF 14% (-1)
    LD 12% (-)
    GRE 5% (-1)
    SNP 2% (nc)
    OTH 7% (+2)

    F/w 21st - 25th June. Changes vs. 19th June 2024.

    https://x.com/Survation/status/1805856893602046259

    Just about 1 week to go and still no real sign of Conservative swingback.

    Let’s see if the betting ‘Plague upon both your houses’ causes a dent to Labour
    One week to go and polls still steadily consistent with the possibility of Tories getting 40-80 seats and the majority of big cheeses gone. And political betting leading the news constantly.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 6,817
    Farooq said:

    Heathener said:

    Cicero said:

    RefUK candidate in Salisbury booed after praising Putin. https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/reform-uk-candidate-salisbury-putin-julian-malins-kc-zpbghfgd5

    I think Farage really has blown it.

    Good. We do not need wannabe Quislings in our democracy.

    This is where I think Leon notably misreads this country. We are not the same as mainland Europe and don’t necessarily follow ‘behind’ their trends, which is an odd thing to have to remind a so-called brexiteer.

    A good case can be made for saying that we had our rightward surge in 2016 and again in 2019, especially since migration was a big factor in those votes on top of EU centralised control.

    That we are now almost certainly about to elect a Centre-Left Government may buck the continental trend, or it may show that we are, in fact, 10 years ahead of them.

    Either way, and you can ignore the last bit, the main point is that we are not a typical mainland European country. We are an island nation with both an inward and outward facing dynamic.

    We don’t generally do extremism. Since 1945, which was exceptional, we have never elected an extreme government of Right or Left. And however much froth and bubble they produce, neither Marxists nor Fascists have succeeded in winning a majority here.

    Thankfully. Long may that continue.
    I'm sad to see people just buying into the narrative of there being a significant rightward surge in Europe in general.
    As I attempted to show shortly after the results, there were countervailing currents in Europe. But people focus selectively so they highlighted the countries that fitted the narrative and stayed quiet on the ones that flowed the other direction.
    And before anyone says, it's not just that some countries get inherently more focus. In the past few years, Sweden had a lot of focus when it was going towards the right. In this election the result was a kind of stasis so oops we don't analyse that result.

    People invested in politics get sucked in my these narratives because they want to feel something is happening. It's easier to justify the investment of time and emotion when you can kid yourself that a great historical tide is flowing even if in reality it's just the waves on the shore.

    And of course, for some it's wishful thinking. You see it a lot on here. The country's about to take a moderate turn to the left. But where does that leave my "EVERYTHING FLOWING TO THE RIGHT!" story? Oh, easy, this incoming government will fail fast and the people will quickly wake up to our Lord and Saviour, Sir Nigel of Faragistan. And so a future that is so obviously unwritten collapses, in their minds, to a single inevitable conclusion.
    The obvious wrongness of this sense of inevitability ought to lead us to question every step they've made to get there. Including the recent past. What happened in the European elections is not what these people say happened. The picture is considerably more mixed and nuanced. But one of two blaring cakeholes shout a lie and everyone sort of absorbs it as gospel without checking.
    It’s a really good point. And it’s always easy to get swept along by hyperbole, for example from our anti-migrant migrant, when the facts don’t really support the thesis.

    As you may know, I am of the view that the far right always flatter to deceive in France. I lived for a time in the south-west where the Le Pen dynasty have long had vocal support. Maybe they will have more of a profile this time but there’s a ceiling to their support.

    A little like that fairly pointless piece by Danny the Fink, journalists strive to earn their keep.

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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,213

    Hislop's comment. If you are a usual Tory, and you're voting for Starmer, be in no doubt: you are voting to embrace aspects of socialism:

    "This is an important piece of journalism in that it adds to our understanding of the enigma that is Starmer. It affirms that the man has integrity and is prepared to modify his views when confronted by evidence.

    If Labour wins, the electorate has to accept that the government will embrace aspects of socialism. The government will not be Tory lite. The Tory Party destroyed its traditional conservative core. The price of this is something more radical. However, something radical is needed. The Tories have wasted 14 years in government. Radical change is never painless, as we discovered under Thatcher.

    Let us hope that Starmer has her mettle."

    Socialism or incompetence. Pick your poison.
    With Labour, we'll have both.

    Every Labour Government leaves office with unemployment higher than it inherited.
    Somewhat higher unemployment would be a good thing. Full employment causes labour shortages in various areas, increasing the demand for immigration, and reducing the need for upskilling of British workers.

    Similarly Employers NI as a tax on jobs is a good thing
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