A whimper of an ending to an eventful and influential career.
Michael Gove is only 56. It seems odd that he should retire from politics. Gove has no business background; he is a journalist. Is The Times editorship up for grabs?
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Wasn’t his Dad a GP?
When I was at University in the late 1980s, the place was filled with pharmacists (I shared a house with four of them).
Leaving aside the lavatorial humour about medical devices, and the skepticism about the @Foxy 's of this world ("pill rollers"), it was roughly "Community Pharmacy to make money, Hospital Pharmacy not to be bored".
Rishi's family would not be filthy rich, but they would be top 2-5% imo.
I'm sure they bought their own furniture.
From what I have read Sunak's parents are a lot like mine.
You save and save to ensure your kids and their kids have the best starting with education.
Debt, other than a mortgage, is the eighth deadliest sin.
Sunak and I were also taught the same thing, work hard and apply yourself and you'll be a success in everything you do.
For me that was true except when it comes to marriage, for Sunak it was true up and until he became PM.
He's no slacker like Boris Johnson.
Mine did similar - sent me to a private day school as they sort it suited. Architect then micro business (one to two employees), and an NHS physio in a special school.
Gove standing down - that's a shame, he was my pick for 2024's Portillo moment.
Who’s your pick now ?
Hunt maybe, except my impression is that the party hates him more than the country.
Braverman if it happens, but I suspect that she's safe, as are Patel and Badenoch.
Symbolically, JRM. He was never important, but he was always visible. And like Portillo, it might be that nothing becomes his political career like his leaving it.
To be a true Portillo moment, doesn't the loser need to be a genuine post-election leadership contender? It's not that Hunt or Rees-Mogg losing wouldn't be entertaining, but Portillo's loss was huge as he'd have been favourite for the leadership.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Sunak strikes me as the typical upper middle class kid trying to fit in at a school full of poshos and being a chronic overachiever yet also carrying a chip on his shoulder the rest of his life, about those who had it all handed it all to them on a plate. And God knows, I know, because I'm from the same background.
The awkwardness, the sense of displacement, never quite leaves you. Existing in their world but never quite being one of them.
I have it on good authority from his neighbours he was laughed at when he showed up at his constituency in brand new wellies and barbour and Landie, but looking like all the gear and no idea. We all know the type. It took me years to feel comfortable with myself - Sunak strikes me as the sort who's 40-odd years old and has *still* not learned to feel comfortable with himself.
This is the George Osborne story too, isn't it? Looked down on, bullied to the point of having to change his name, always a bit self-conscious about it, found success in his 20s and headed for the top.
But Osborne recognised the problem. He knew in 2005 that he'd not be the next Tory PM. And, sure, there was a point in the middle of the last decade where probably he began to think "maybe, just maybe...", but he'd had the chance to grow in to himself a bit more by then - and, besides, Brexit scuppered it.
It can't be that uncommon, certainly not in Tory circles - but what sets Rishi apart is, as you say, that he hasn't learned to overcome it. Why not?
The most obvious answer is simply that he was promoted too far, too soon.
If he'd stayed Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Boris, and then became Chancellor under whoever happened to succeed him, he'd now be in pole position to become leader after the election. And he would almost certainly have done a better job of it than he's made of being PM.
So... it's the Dom Cummings / Sajid Javid spat that we should blame for how things have ended up?
Is that George Osborne, son of Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock and Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet, co-founder of the firm of fabric and wallpaper designers Osborne & Little?
Yes. Bullied because his parents were "in trade" rather than being landowners. Madness, eh?
But even Sunak, a couple of notches further down the social scale, was still far beyond what the vast majority of us will ever experience. Or Gordon Brown, "humble son of the manse" - except that was a deeply respected position (and his father did a stint as Moderator of the CoS!), and he'd almost certainly have been the poshest boy in his school.
Its worth remembering that Sunak didn't go to Winchester until 6th form. He went to a much lesser (and cheaper school) until then. His parents are on film saying they saved everything to make the fees for his two years at Winchester.
I also wonder how going into such an environment from his background and at 16, rather than at 5 or 11 year olds, effected him. He does come across as the geeky try hard kid who is somewhat uncomfortable both around normal people and proper poshos, in a way for instance Cameron didn't.
That’s not correct - he went in Junior part, so 12/13. He went for a scholarship and didn’t get one so parents had to find the full amount.
I stand corrected, I thought he didn't go until after GCSEs, but you are right he went to Stroud prep school until 13.
Gove standing down - that's a shame, he was my pick for 2024's Portillo moment.
Who’s your pick now ?
Hunt maybe, except my impression is that the party hates him more than the country.
Braverman if it happens, but I suspect that she's safe, as are Patel and Badenoch.
Symbolically, JRM. He was never important, but he was always visible. And like Portillo, it might be that nothing becomes his political career like his leaving it.
Portillo's political career didn't end in 1997, though. He was back in Parliament two years later, was Shadow Chancellor, and stood for leader in 2001. It ended with a whimper in 2005 when he stood down to focus on wearing pastel blazers.
Its worth remembering that Sunak didn't go to Winchester until 6th form. He went to a much lesser (and cheaper school) until then. His parents are on film saying they saved everything to make the fees for his two years at Winchester.
I also wonder how going into such an environment from his background and at 16, rather than at 5 or 11 year olds, effected him. He does come across as the geeky try hard kid who is somewhat uncomfortable both around normal people and proper poshos, in a way for instance Cameron didn't.
You are correct however in that if he had gone at 16 it would have been different - some who came at 16/17 fitted in fine, others went “full wykehamist” like those who go to Oxford and wear cricket jumpers and walk around with a teddy bear because they think that’s what you do in a complete change from who they actually were thinking it would make them fit in rather than standing out as newbie idiots.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Sunak strikes me as the typical upper middle class kid trying to fit in at a school full of poshos and being a chronic overachiever yet also carrying a chip on his shoulder the rest of his life, about those who had it all handed it all to them on a plate. And God knows, I know, because I'm from the same background.
The awkwardness, the sense of displacement, never quite leaves you. Existing in their world but never quite being one of them.
I have it on good authority from his neighbours he was laughed at when he showed up at his constituency in brand new wellies and barbour and Landie, but looking like all the gear and no idea. We all know the type. It took me years to feel comfortable with myself - Sunak strikes me as the sort who's 40-odd years old and has *still* not learned to feel comfortable with himself.
This is the George Osborne story too, isn't it? Looked down on, bullied to the point of having to change his name, always a bit self-conscious about it, found success in his 20s and headed for the top.
But Osborne recognised the problem. He knew in 2005 that he'd not be the next Tory PM. And, sure, there was a point in the middle of the last decade where probably he began to think "maybe, just maybe...", but he'd had the chance to grow in to himself a bit more by then - and, besides, Brexit scuppered it.
It can't be that uncommon, certainly not in Tory circles - but what sets Rishi apart is, as you say, that he hasn't learned to overcome it. Why not?
The most obvious answer is simply that he was promoted too far, too soon.
If he'd stayed Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Boris, and then became Chancellor under whoever happened to succeed him, he'd now be in pole position to become leader after the election. And he would almost certainly have done a better job of it than he's made of being PM.
So... it's the Dom Cummings / Sajid Javid spat that we should blame for how things have ended up?
Winchester is resolutely middle class and majors in intellectual not social snobbery
Yup, nobody really gave a shit if you were titled, old money, son of a dictator, assisted places. If you were relatively thick you got a hard time and if you were an obnoxious prick you got a hard time. Nobody in my time used their titles and would be mortified if it was brought up.
But if you were a northerner.
"Nobody in my time used their titles"
Yes, but some people in your year had them. And if you didn't, and you weren't brought up in that environment, you will always be a bit of an outgroup/other. The sense of otherworldliness for a son of an immigrant pharmacist would be palpable. And it shows in Rishi today. The joys of the hidden class signifiers that still exist in our society today.
Rishi's problem - at least so I'm told by some of his neighbours who I know from my younger days - is that he shows up trying to be a bit what he's not. Whereas Osborne learned you could be adjacent to those types, and respected by them, without trying to pretend to be one.
Cf Tom Wambsgans in Succession. Rishi is exactly Season 1 Tom.
Just not the case. The typical parental job was GP, solicitor, provincial stockbroker. Rishi was bang on the median.
I will take your word for it.
There is a sense of awkwardness about him that I just ascribed to 'teenage years spent around people posher than he was' which, as I say, I recognise in myself.
In which case he still has that awkwardness about him, it just comes from somewhere else.
There was no shortage of bullying there - I sent my children elsewhere for that reason - and I wouldn't die of surprise to learn that he was on the receiving end of it, what with being brown and pharmacy not in the top quartile of middle class professions. Just dispelling the notion the place was like Versailles under the Sun King.
Gove standing down - that's a shame, he was my pick for 2024's Portillo moment.
Who’s your pick now ?
Hunt maybe, except my impression is that the party hates him more than the country.
Braverman if it happens, but I suspect that she's safe, as are Patel and Badenoch.
Symbolically, JRM. He was never important, but he was always visible. And like Portillo, it might be that nothing becomes his political career like his leaving it.
Gove standing down - that's a shame, he was my pick for 2024's Portillo moment.
Who’s your pick now ?
Hunt maybe, except my impression is that the party hates him more than the country.
Braverman if it happens, but I suspect that she's safe, as are Patel and Badenoch.
Symbolically, JRM. He was never important, but he was always visible. And like Portillo, it might be that nothing becomes his political career like his leaving it.
Mordaunt would lose her seat on current polling and is the most likely top leadership contender to lose. Braverman and Badenoch’s seats are safer.
Though I do wonder if Penny might cling on against all odds as I suspect she has quite a good personal vote.
I doubt it. He'll just be plotting from HoL I suspect.
If there is one thing about Gove, he is always scheming and planning for his own benefit and survival. I am sure he has something lined up (no pun intended, well maybe it was).
Starmer would be the most dangerous PM since the 1970s - says Boris Johnson
Showing that Johnson would have run a much more effective campaign than Sunak.
Nah, the campaign would have been about Boris Johnson's parties.
Oh and lying about putting about known sexual predator in a position of authority.
There's a reason why Boris Johnson's ratings at the end were as bad as Corbyn's at his worst.
Do you really think that Boris Johnson would have made a worse fist of this GE than Sunak?
It's a fascinating counterfactual.
For what it's worth, I think Reform would be essentially nowhere, the Conservatives would be polling about six or seven points better, but the LDs and Labour would both also be up, albeit smaller amounts. Essentially, 12 points of Reform would go, mostly to the Conservatives, but some to WNV. But then again, so would some centrist Conservatives.
I think there is also the risk that tactical voting would be more pronounced in such a world.
Of course, the reality is that globally incumbents are getting hammered because wages have not kept up with prices.
And that is true irrespective of the colour of the rosette of the party in power.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Wasn’t his Dad a GP?
When I was at University in the late 1980s, the place was filled with pharmacists (I shared a house with four of them).
Leaving aside the lavatorial humour about medical devices, and the skepticism about the @Foxy 's of this world ("pill rollers"), it was roughly "Community Pharmacy to make money, Hospital Pharmacy not to be bored".
Rishi's family would not be filthy rich, but they would be top 2-5% imo.
I'm sure they bought their own furniture.
Well, I’m a retired pharmacist, son of a female pharmacist (and pharmacy owner) and I started in community pharmacy and then went into hospital. I don’t think we were ever in the top 2-5% but could be described as comfortable. And I’d agree about Hospital pharmacy not being as financially rewarding, but being more interesting than Community.
I'll admit it was quite the experience. All male.
One with that famous Sam Fox poster facing his window; one on the top floor with a chamber pot under the bed ("I did a number two in it .... once"), and so on ... all in a small terraced house in BD7 where it was either students or houses with random bricks picked out in the colours of the Pakistan flag.
Interestingly there was an Ahmadiyya presence in the area.
I lived in a terraced house in BD7, funnily enough. Wonder if we ever bumped into each other at Rios?
Gove standing down - that's a shame, he was my pick for 2024's Portillo moment.
Who’s your pick now ?
Hunt maybe, except my impression is that the party hates him more than the country.
Braverman if it happens, but I suspect that she's safe, as are Patel and Badenoch.
Symbolically, JRM. He was never important, but he was always visible. And like Portillo, it might be that nothing becomes his political career like his leaving it.
If Jacob Rees-Mogg loses on an election night I will be covering that with a thread headlined 'Tory gain.'
A whimper of an ending to an eventful and influential career.
Michael Gove is only 56. It seems odd that he should retire from politics. Gove has no business background; he is a journalist. Is The Times editorship up for grabs?
Everyone in their fifties should retire from the Tories. The next time the Tories are in office, Gove will likely be in his seventies.
I think the worst decision the Tories made for themselves was to ditch Johnson. But it was the best decision for the country.
Of course, Sunak supporting him in the first place makes me question his judgment. I only say this because he seems to think supporting JC makes SKS's judgment also questionable.
The Tory Party putting Johnson into Number 10 in the first place is something I will have to spend a lot of years getting over before I consider voting for them again.
A whimper of an ending to an eventful and influential career.
Michael Gove is only 56. It seems odd that he should retire from politics. Gove has no business background; he is a journalist. Is The Times editorship up for grabs?
He's not really going to be part of the next Tory leader's plans though, is he, even if he'd held his seat (I think he would, just, have but not certain). And he'll be well into his sixties at least before the Tories are back.
He was always a pretty capable minister (whether you agreed with him or not, he was driven and knew his brief). Suspect he'd be quite in demand, and knows the future doesn't hold much as an aging, backbench, opposition MP.
For us younger folks, the last bastions of the Tory Party we first got to really know when we were younger (and going through various parts of the school system) have all but now gone.
Change elections do tend to be era defining.
In my lifetime I've lived through two "change" elections (1997 and 2010) and you do see the names you're familiar with being swept away.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
The Tories were only too happy to condemn Mr Miliband for eating a bacon sandwich, though, so they can't very well complain now.
One difference with that was Team Miliband actually set that PR shot up to show how much of a normal bloke he was and he flopped it. But yes it the criticism was OTT. It is a sign of how unserious our media have become. As we found out during COVID most of them can't even add 2 + 2, but spend their lives on the tw@tter machine reposting total nonsense. It just gets worse and worse, that literally all they talk about.
As I said previous thread, the ICJ ruling on Israel, Israel's response, there are serious questions to ask Sunak and Starmer, what you going to do, still send arms?
The ICJ ruling is a bloody disgrace, especially when it's not tied to a release of the hostages.
Israel, who are not a party to the ICJ, are well within their rights to give an Arkell v Pressdram response to the ruling.
It might be, but it does raise tricky questions for the likes of US and UK politicians. Its a serious question to ask them, Israel has signalled already they will continue on, what is your position, why, do you have your own redlines, etc. Its grown up proper stuff that needs addressing.
The US quite rightly is not a party to the ICJ, like Israel.
After today's despicable ruling, I would support us quitting such a twisted institution too.
My personal red line would be the unconditional release of all Israeli hostages taken last year, the unconditional surrender and disarmament of Hamas, and for Hamas to face justice for what they have done.
When that happens, then I would support the war ending. Until then, Israel has the right to self defence and if Hamas are in Rafah then they should be targeted there until they surrender unconditionally. Anyone who denies Israel the right to self defence is wrong, and that includes it seems the ICJ.
As Nelson Mandela who understood apartheid better than anyone said in 1977
"We Know Too well That Our Freedom Is Incomplete Without the Freedom of the Palestinians"
Would love to know what the ANC would think, and how they would react, to a separatist movement in SA. Zulus demanding their historic lands back in a free state. I’m sure they will hand them over.
So you are a sympathiser of apartheid?
Even for a Tory on PB I think you'll find you're in a small minority
Yes roger, I sing Die Stem every morning as my houseboy serves me breakfast. You really are so unbelievably stupid that I thank god for the mercy that he gave you a modicum of artistic ability rather than leaving you bereft of any hope for a life.
There is a big difference between comparing two countries with historic grievances which might contradict positions held to being a racist apartheid loving knob. Now i spent a lot of time in SA under apartheid and after apartheid and even as a child I could see how disgusting it was under apartheid, sadly as an adult you haven’t reassessed your position on downblousing and the sad tale of Russian Oligarchs losing their lovely yachts.
Stick to a visual medium rather than words, it works for you and nobody gets to hear the crap going on inside your head.
Gove standing down - that's a shame, he was my pick for 2024's Portillo moment.
Who’s your pick now ?
Hunt maybe, except my impression is that the party hates him more than the country.
Braverman if it happens, but I suspect that she's safe, as are Patel and Badenoch.
Symbolically, JRM. He was never important, but he was always visible. And like Portillo, it might be that nothing becomes his political career like his leaving it.
To be a true Portillo moment, doesn't the loser need to be a genuine post-election leadership contender? It's not that Hunt or Rees-Mogg losing wouldn't be entertaining, but Portillo's loss was huge as he'd have been favourite for the leadership.
But also, you need to be a hate figure on the other side. Malcolm Rifkind was Foreign Secretary, objectively biggest beast to fall on the night, but nobody really minded him. If Mordaunt were to lose (and Portsmouth North is probably somewhere on the active battlefield), I doubt that there would be much 'ding dong the witch is dead' rejoicing.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Sunak strikes me as the typical upper middle class kid trying to fit in at a school full of poshos and being a chronic overachiever yet also carrying a chip on his shoulder the rest of his life, about those who had it all handed it all to them on a plate. And God knows, I know, because I'm from the same background.
The awkwardness, the sense of displacement, never quite leaves you. Existing in their world but never quite being one of them.
I have it on good authority from his neighbours he was laughed at when he showed up at his constituency in brand new wellies and barbour and Landie, but looking like all the gear and no idea. We all know the type. It took me years to feel comfortable with myself - Sunak strikes me as the sort who's 40-odd years old and has *still* not learned to feel comfortable with himself.
This is the George Osborne story too, isn't it? Looked down on, bullied to the point of having to change his name, always a bit self-conscious about it, found success in his 20s and headed for the top.
But Osborne recognised the problem. He knew in 2005 that he'd not be the next Tory PM. And, sure, there was a point in the middle of the last decade where probably he began to think "maybe, just maybe...", but he'd had the chance to grow in to himself a bit more by then - and, besides, Brexit scuppered it.
It can't be that uncommon, certainly not in Tory circles - but what sets Rishi apart is, as you say, that he hasn't learned to overcome it. Why not?
The most obvious answer is simply that he was promoted too far, too soon.
If he'd stayed Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Boris, and then became Chancellor under whoever happened to succeed him, he'd now be in pole position to become leader after the election. And he would almost certainly have done a better job of it than he's made of being PM.
So... it's the Dom Cummings / Sajid Javid spat that we should blame for how things have ended up?
Winchester is resolutely middle class and majors in intellectual not social snobbery
Yup, nobody really gave a shit if you were titled, old money, son of a dictator, assisted places. If you were relatively thick you got a hard time and if you were an obnoxious prick you got a hard time. Nobody in my time used their titles and would be mortified if it was brought up.
But if you were a northerner.
"Nobody in my time used their titles"
Yes, but some people in your year had them. And if you didn't, and you weren't brought up in that environment, you will always be a bit of an outgroup/other. The sense of otherworldliness for a son of an immigrant pharmacist would be palpable. And it shows in Rishi today. The joys of the hidden class signifiers that still exist in our society today.
Rishi's problem - at least so I'm told by some of his neighbours who I know from my younger days - is that he shows up trying to be a bit what he's not. Whereas Osborne learned you could be adjacent to those types, and respected by them, without trying to pretend to be one.
Cf Tom Wambsgans in Succession. Rishi is exactly Season 1 Tom.
"The thing about me is that I’m a terrible, terrible cunt."
Gove standing down - that's a shame, he was my pick for 2024's Portillo moment.
Who’s your pick now ?
Hunt maybe, except my impression is that the party hates him more than the country.
Braverman if it happens, but I suspect that she's safe, as are Patel and Badenoch.
Symbolically, JRM. He was never important, but he was always visible. And like Portillo, it might be that nothing becomes his political career like his leaving it.
If Jacob Rees-Mogg loses on an election night I will be covering that with a thread headlined 'Tory gain.'
A whimper of an ending to an eventful and influential career.
Michael Gove is only 56. It seems odd that he should retire from politics. Gove has no business background; he is a journalist. Is The Times editorship up for grabs?
Everyone in their fifties should retire from the Tories. The next time the Tories are in office, Gove will likely be in his seventies.
Never say never. Though it has just occurred to me that GBNews has been in trouble for having serving MPs present programmes, and Gove is a journalist with television experience.
People should expect a labour govt and work out what it means for them. That’s what I’m doing. Labour will win. No doubt about that. What it means to the individual is what matters
A whimper of an ending to an eventful and influential career.
Michael Gove is only 56. It seems odd that he should retire from politics. Gove has no business background; he is a journalist. Is The Times editorship up for grabs?
Everyone in their fifties should retire from the Tories. The next time the Tories are in office, Gove will likely be in his seventies.
Never say never. Though it has just occurred to me that GBNews has been in trouble for having serving MPs present programmes, and Gove is a journalist with television experience.
That was my initial thought, but then I remember how much Rupert Murdoch is a fan. I think its much more likely its somewhere like the Times + Times Radio.
A whimper of an ending to an eventful and influential career.
Michael Gove is only 56. It seems odd that he should retire from politics. Gove has no business background; he is a journalist. Is The Times editorship up for grabs?
Everyone in their fifties should retire from the Tories. The next time the Tories are in office, Gove will likely be in his seventies.
Never say never. Though it has just occurred to me that GBNews has been in trouble for having serving MPs present programmes, and Gove is a journalist with television experience.
I'd have thought Gove would be more suitable for radio.
A whimper of an ending to an eventful and influential career.
Michael Gove is only 56. It seems odd that he should retire from politics. Gove has no business background; he is a journalist. Is The Times editorship up for grabs?
Everyone in their fifties should retire from the Tories. The next time the Tories are in office, Gove will likely be in his seventies.
Trouble is that most people in their fifties have retired from voting Conservative.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Sunak strikes me as the typical upper middle class kid trying to fit in at a school full of poshos and being a chronic overachiever yet also carrying a chip on his shoulder the rest of his life, about those who had it all handed it all to them on a plate. And God knows, I know, because I'm from the same background.
The awkwardness, the sense of displacement, never quite leaves you. Existing in their world but never quite being one of them.
I have it on good authority from his neighbours he was laughed at when he showed up at his constituency in brand new wellies and barbour and Landie, but looking like all the gear and no idea. We all know the type. It took me years to feel comfortable with myself - Sunak strikes me as the sort who's 40-odd years old and has *still* not learned to feel comfortable with himself.
This is the George Osborne story too, isn't it? Looked down on, bullied to the point of having to change his name, always a bit self-conscious about it, found success in his 20s and headed for the top.
But Osborne recognised the problem. He knew in 2005 that he'd not be the next Tory PM. And, sure, there was a point in the middle of the last decade where probably he began to think "maybe, just maybe...", but he'd had the chance to grow in to himself a bit more by then - and, besides, Brexit scuppered it.
It can't be that uncommon, certainly not in Tory circles - but what sets Rishi apart is, as you say, that he hasn't learned to overcome it. Why not?
The most obvious answer is simply that he was promoted too far, too soon.
If he'd stayed Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Boris, and then became Chancellor under whoever happened to succeed him, he'd now be in pole position to become leader after the election. And he would almost certainly have done a better job of it than he's made of being PM.
So... it's the Dom Cummings / Sajid Javid spat that we should blame for how things have ended up?
Winchester is resolutely middle class and majors in intellectual not social snobbery
Yup, nobody really gave a shit if you were titled, old money, son of a dictator, assisted places. If you were relatively thick you got a hard time and if you were an obnoxious prick you got a hard time. Nobody in my time used their titles and would be mortified if it was brought up.
But if you were a northerner.
"Nobody in my time used their titles"
Yes, but some people in your year had them. And if you didn't, and you weren't brought up in that environment, you will always be a bit of an outgroup/other. The sense of otherworldliness for a son of an immigrant pharmacist would be palpable. And it shows in Rishi today. The joys of the hidden class signifiers that still exist in our society today.
Rishi's problem - at least so I'm told by some of his neighbours who I know from my younger days - is that he shows up trying to be a bit what he's not. Whereas Osborne learned you could be adjacent to those types, and respected by them, without trying to pretend to be one.
Cf Tom Wambsgans in Succession. Rishi is exactly Season 1 Tom.
"The thing about me is that I’m a terrible, terrible cunt."
If I had known we could use the “C” word I could have kept my reply to Roger down to one word.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Wasn’t his Dad a GP?
When I was at University in the late 1980s, the place was filled with pharmacists (I shared a house with four of them).
Leaving aside the lavatorial humour about medical devices, and the skepticism about the @Foxy 's of this world ("pill rollers"), it was roughly "Community Pharmacy to make money, Hospital Pharmacy not to be bored".
Rishi's family would not be filthy rich, but they would be top 2-5% imo.
I'm sure they bought their own furniture.
Well, I’m a retired pharmacist, son of a female pharmacist (and pharmacy owner) and I started in community pharmacy and then went into hospital. I don’t think we were ever in the top 2-5% but could be described as comfortable. And I’d agree about Hospital pharmacy not being as financially rewarding, but being more interesting than Community.
I'll admit it was quite the experience. All male.
One with that famous Sam Fox poster facing his window; one on the top floor with a chamber pot under the bed ("I did a number two in it .... once"), and so on ... all in a small terraced house in BD7 where it was either students or houses with random bricks picked out in the colours of the Pakistan flag.
Interestingly there was an Ahmadiyya presence in the area.
I lived in a terraced house in BD7, funnily enough. Wonder if we ever bumped into each other at Rios?
Me: 85-88. I was in Shearbridge Hall (now a car park), Little Horton, Oulton Terrace, then Lidget Green.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
Can you provide some comment if you're just going to copy and paste Tweets? I know I do it but I also provide a question or some thought on it. You are just a Twitter feed and it's starting to grate.
(If PB would prefer I didn't post Tweets with comment I will happily stop - but I like to reference what I am talking about.)
Reposting tweets can be interesting if they provide new information or a story e.g. I think this story over Sunak appearing to mislead the campaigner over the Manchester bombing is interesting. What we don't need then is 20 more tweets that are basically saying the same thing, what a knobhead, liar, etc, same as 20 more tweets from journalists all circle jerking about Sunak photoed near an exit sign on a plane (of all places). GE campaigns are busy and fast moving, there is already plenty of signal and ridiculous amount of noise.
Those who post tweets should also post the link to the original so those of us who care can see it with the photo and in context.
It's such a great image I'm going to use my quota to day to post it:
It is an amazing image - what were the chances of managing to get a photo of someone on a plane with an exit sign. Must be terrible planning by the Tories to use a plane with exit signs. Madness.
Next some genius journo will manage to get a photo of Rishi somewhere where there is a sign for loos and we can giggle about him going down the pan.
Luckily Sir Keir avoids such places with exits and bogs because his genius campaign team.
It's getting fucking tedious already
It's also making me feel sorry for Sunak. He's doing his best, he's not very good at basic politics, he got publicly humiliated during his stupid Downing St speech. Enough. He's going to lose. It really does begin to feel like bullying, especially as his such a tiny tot of a man
Yes, it's pissing me off too.
The guy's alright.
He may be "alright" but that isn't the point and nor are the ludicrous photo opportunities.
The point is he leads the Government - he is the one who is held accountable for the actions of the Government elected in 2019 and the one who should be able to answer the questions and concerns people have about whether this Government deserves re-election based on its record.
IF people think their lot has deteriorated and society is worse off than it was in December 2019, they may decide to look at alternatives. The Prime Minister has to take the criticism and answer the statistical evidence - politics is "rough trade" as someone once said and sometimes you have to take the rough with the jagged in that job.
He's going to get the criticism, but nobody's going to remember the Blacks Swans of the last Prliament. Frankly I think Starmer would have locked us up longer and bankrupted us sooner. Sunak certainly made his mistakes but I see nothing that says Starmer would have done better.
Of course - Covid is already ancient history for many. The fact of the matter is (and you can argue against fate, chance or destiny as much as you like) the Conservatives won the December 2019 election and were the ones in charge. As to what Starmer, Corbyn or Davey would have done, completely and utterly immaterial. They weren't in charge - Johnson was Prime Minister, Sunak was his Chancellor, the response to the crisis was theirs.
People should expect a labour govt and work out what it means for them. That’s what I’m doing. Labour will win. No doubt about that. What it means to the individual is what matters
And in my view, it can’t be worse than the short termist shit we’ve seen for the last 14 years
A whimper of an ending to an eventful and influential career.
Michael Gove is only 56. It seems odd that he should retire from politics. Gove has no business background; he is a journalist. Is The Times editorship up for grabs?
Everyone in their fifties should retire from the Tories. The next time the Tories are in office, Gove will likely be in his seventies.
Never say never. Though it has just occurred to me that GBNews has been in trouble for having serving MPs present programmes, and Gove is a journalist with television experience.
I'd have thought Gove would be more suitable for radio.
There isn't really "radio" now as an audio only offering. Same as podcasts. Its audio-visual content.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Sunak strikes me as the typical upper middle class kid trying to fit in at a school full of poshos and being a chronic overachiever yet also carrying a chip on his shoulder the rest of his life, about those who had it all handed it all to them on a plate. And God knows, I know, because I'm from the same background.
The awkwardness, the sense of displacement, never quite leaves you. Existing in their world but never quite being one of them.
I have it on good authority from his neighbours he was laughed at when he showed up at his constituency in brand new wellies and barbour and Landie, but looking like all the gear and no idea. We all know the type. It took me years to feel comfortable with myself - Sunak strikes me as the sort who's 40-odd years old and has *still* not learned to feel comfortable with himself.
This is the George Osborne story too, isn't it? Looked down on, bullied to the point of having to change his name, always a bit self-conscious about it, found success in his 20s and headed for the top.
But Osborne recognised the problem. He knew in 2005 that he'd not be the next Tory PM. And, sure, there was a point in the middle of the last decade where probably he began to think "maybe, just maybe...", but he'd had the chance to grow in to himself a bit more by then - and, besides, Brexit scuppered it.
It can't be that uncommon, certainly not in Tory circles - but what sets Rishi apart is, as you say, that he hasn't learned to overcome it. Why not?
The most obvious answer is simply that he was promoted too far, too soon.
If he'd stayed Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Boris, and then became Chancellor under whoever happened to succeed him, he'd now be in pole position to become leader after the election. And he would almost certainly have done a better job of it than he's made of being PM.
So... it's the Dom Cummings / Sajid Javid spat that we should blame for how things have ended up?
Winchester is resolutely middle class and majors in intellectual not social snobbery
Yup, nobody really gave a shit if you were titled, old money, son of a dictator, assisted places. If you were relatively thick you got a hard time and if you were an obnoxious prick you got a hard time. Nobody in my time used their titles and would be mortified if it was brought up.
But if you were a northerner.
"Nobody in my time used their titles"
Yes, but some people in your year had them. And if you didn't, and you weren't brought up in that environment, you will always be a bit of an outgroup/other. The sense of otherworldliness for a son of an immigrant pharmacist would be palpable. And it shows in Rishi today. The joys of the hidden class signifiers that still exist in our society today.
Rishi's problem - at least so I'm told by some of his neighbours who I know from my younger days - is that he shows up trying to be a bit what he's not. Whereas Osborne learned you could be adjacent to those types, and respected by them, without trying to pretend to be one.
Cf Tom Wambsgans in Succession. Rishi is exactly Season 1 Tom.
Just not the case. The typical parental job was GP, solicitor, provincial stockbroker. Rishi was bang on the median.
I will take your word for it.
There is a sense of awkwardness about him that I just ascribed to 'teenage years spent around people posher than he was' which, as I say, I recognise in myself.
In which case he still has that awkwardness about him, it just comes from somewhere else.
There was no shortage of bullying there - I sent my children elsewhere for that reason - and I wouldn't die of surprise to learn that he was on the receiving end of it, what with being brown and pharmacy not in the top quartile of middle class professions. Just dispelling the notion the place was like Versailles under the Sun King.
I can see Rishi as "the kid who got bullied" at any private school in the 90s to be honest. Nerdy, unsporty, a bit awkward and (as it was the 90s) a bit brown (deeply unpleasant by modern standards, but those were the times).
The sad thing is I know a couple of types who were like that from my school days, and they're hyper confident and absolutely masters of their domain now... While Rishi as a 44 year old still somehow comes off as "that kid you want to give a wedgie to".
I don't know why that is, but it's his equivalent of Ed Miliband eating a bacon buttie - even though it should have absolutely no bearing on his ability to run the country, it's that perceptual filter we all have that says "yep, he's up for the job" vs "he's not". And Rishi seems like the kid who never grew out of his shell.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Sunak strikes me as the typical upper middle class kid trying to fit in at a school full of poshos and being a chronic overachiever yet also carrying a chip on his shoulder the rest of his life, about those who had it all handed it all to them on a plate. And God knows, I know, because I'm from the same background.
The awkwardness, the sense of displacement, never quite leaves you. Existing in their world but never quite being one of them.
I have it on good authority from his neighbours he was laughed at when he showed up at his constituency in brand new wellies and barbour and Landie, but looking like all the gear and no idea. We all know the type. It took me years to feel comfortable with myself - Sunak strikes me as the sort who's 40-odd years old and has *still* not learned to feel comfortable with himself.
This is the George Osborne story too, isn't it? Looked down on, bullied to the point of having to change his name, always a bit self-conscious about it, found success in his 20s and headed for the top.
But Osborne recognised the problem. He knew in 2005 that he'd not be the next Tory PM. And, sure, there was a point in the middle of the last decade where probably he began to think "maybe, just maybe...", but he'd had the chance to grow in to himself a bit more by then - and, besides, Brexit scuppered it.
It can't be that uncommon, certainly not in Tory circles - but what sets Rishi apart is, as you say, that he hasn't learned to overcome it. Why not?
The most obvious answer is simply that he was promoted too far, too soon.
If he'd stayed Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Boris, and then became Chancellor under whoever happened to succeed him, he'd now be in pole position to become leader after the election. And he would almost certainly have done a better job of it than he's made of being PM.
So... it's the Dom Cummings / Sajid Javid spat that we should blame for how things have ended up?
Winchester is resolutely middle class and majors in intellectual not social snobbery
Yup, nobody really gave a shit if you were titled, old money, son of a dictator, assisted places. If you were relatively thick you got a hard time and if you were an obnoxious prick you got a hard time. Nobody in my time used their titles and would be mortified if it was brought up.
But if you were a northerner.
"Nobody in my time used their titles"
Yes, but some people in your year had them. And if you didn't, and you weren't brought up in that environment, you will always be a bit of an outgroup/other. The sense of otherworldliness for a son of an immigrant pharmacist would be palpable. And it shows in Rishi today. The joys of the hidden class signifiers that still exist in our society today.
Rishi's problem - at least so I'm told by some of his neighbours who I know from my younger days - is that he shows up trying to be a bit what he's not. Whereas Osborne learned you could be adjacent to those types, and respected by them, without trying to pretend to be one.
Cf Tom Wambsgans in Succession. Rishi is exactly Season 1 Tom.
Just not the case. The typical parental job was GP, solicitor, provincial stockbroker. Rishi was bang on the median.
I will take your word for it.
There is a sense of awkwardness about him that I just ascribed to 'teenage years spent around people posher than he was' which, as I say, I recognise in myself.
In which case he still has that awkwardness about him, it just comes from somewhere else.
There was no shortage of bullying there - I sent my children elsewhere for that reason - and I wouldn't die of surprise to learn that he was on the receiving end of it, what with being brown and pharmacy not in the top quartile of middle class professions. Just dispelling the notion the place was like Versailles under the Sun King.
Our lives tend to repeat themselves. He went from a school that was posher than he was to a marriage where the wife's family was eye-wateringly richer and more powerful than he was.
A whimper of an ending to an eventful and influential career.
Michael Gove is only 56. It seems odd that he should retire from politics. Gove has no business background; he is a journalist. Is The Times editorship up for grabs?
He knew he was about to lose. Simple.
At least Jeremy Hunt isn’t being a coward. (So far)
Gove standing down - that's a shame, he was my pick for 2024's Portillo moment.
Who’s your pick now ?
Hunt maybe, except my impression is that the party hates him more than the country.
Braverman if it happens, but I suspect that she's safe, as are Patel and Badenoch.
Symbolically, JRM. He was never important, but he was always visible. And like Portillo, it might be that nothing becomes his political career like his leaving it.
If Jacob Rees-Mogg loses on an election night I will be covering that with a thread headlined 'Tory gain.'
OK.
But if things go pear shaped in Newcastle-under-Lyme, you must on no account deploy the header Bell End.
Gove standing down - that's a shame, he was my pick for 2024's Portillo moment.
Who’s your pick now ?
Hunt maybe, except my impression is that the party hates him more than the country.
Braverman if it happens, but I suspect that she's safe, as are Patel and Badenoch.
Symbolically, JRM. He was never important, but he was always visible. And like Portillo, it might be that nothing becomes his political career like his leaving it.
To be a true Portillo moment, doesn't the loser need to be a genuine post-election leadership contender? It's not that Hunt or Rees-Mogg losing wouldn't be entertaining, but Portillo's loss was huge as he'd have been favourite for the leadership.
But also, you need to be a hate figure on the other side. Malcolm Rifkind was Foreign Secretary, objectively biggest beast to fall on the night, but nobody really minded him. If Mordaunt were to lose (and Portsmouth North is probably somewhere on the active battlefield), I doubt that there would be much 'ding dong the witch is dead' rejoicing.
Well, might be a little bit in a corner of Richmondshire.
People should expect a labour govt and work out what it means for them. That’s what I’m doing. Labour will win. No doubt about that. What it means to the individual is what matters
Ruin from a different direction is all it means. Work on how to get them out as soon as possible. Nothing they have said in any way suggests a vision or plan. Vacuous soundbites about 'renewal' and 'change'. Bleak, meagre, buggins turn stuff. It will happen so it's already time to think about what comes next.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
The Tories were only too happy to condemn Mr Miliband for eating a bacon sandwich, though, so they can't very well complain now.
One difference with that was Team Miliband actually set that PR shot up to show how much of a normal bloke he was and he flopped it. But yes it the criticism was OTT. It is a sign of how unserious our media have become. As we found out during COVID most of them can't even add 2 + 2, but spend their lives on the tw@tter machine reposting total nonsense. It just gets worse and worse, that literally all they talk about.
As I said previous thread, the ICJ ruling on Israel, Israel's response, there are serious questions to ask Sunak and Starmer, what you going to do, still send arms?
The ICJ ruling is a bloody disgrace, especially when it's not tied to a release of the hostages.
Israel, who are not a party to the ICJ, are well within their rights to give an Arkell v Pressdram response to the ruling.
It might be, but it does raise tricky questions for the likes of US and UK politicians. Its a serious question to ask them, Israel has signalled already they will continue on, what is your position, why, do you have your own redlines, etc. Its grown up proper stuff that needs addressing.
The US quite rightly is not a party to the ICJ, like Israel.
After today's despicable ruling, I would support us quitting such a twisted institution too.
My personal red line would be the unconditional release of all Israeli hostages taken last year, the unconditional surrender and disarmament of Hamas, and for Hamas to face justice for what they have done.
When that happens, then I would support the war ending. Until then, Israel has the right to self defence and if Hamas are in Rafah then they should be targeted there until they surrender unconditionally. Anyone who denies Israel the right to self defence is wrong, and that includes it seems the ICJ.
As Nelson Mandela who understood apartheid better than anyone said in 1977
"We Know Too well That Our Freedom Is Incomplete Without the Freedom of the Palestinians"
Would love to know what the ANC would think, and how they would react, to a separatist movement in SA. Zulus demanding their historic lands back in a free state. I’m sure they will hand them over.
So you are a sympathiser of apartheid?
Even for a Tory on PB I think you'll find you're in a small minority
Have you been in touch with Paula Vennels to offer words of comfort to this victim.
People should expect a labour govt and work out what it means for them. That’s what I’m doing. Labour will win. No doubt about that. What it means to the individual is what matters
Ruin from a different direction is all it means. Work on how to get them out as soon as possible. Nothing they have said in any way suggests a vision or plan. Vacuous soundbites about 'renewal' and 'change'. Bleak, meagre, buggins turn stuff. It will happen so it's already time to think about what comes next.
It may well be a different party. I personally feel - despite many calling me silly - that the Tories may well split.
People should expect a labour govt and work out what it means for them. That’s what I’m doing. Labour will win. No doubt about that. What it means to the individual is what matters
And in my view, it can’t be worse than the short termist shit we’ve seen for the last 14 years
Couldn’t care less about that. It’s going to happen. What does it mean to me. Kevan Jones standing down means I won’t vote for the first time since I was able to, in a GE.. I’d vote for him in a heartbeat
Gove standing down - that's a shame, he was my pick for 2024's Portillo moment.
Who’s your pick now ?
Hunt maybe, except my impression is that the party hates him more than the country.
Braverman if it happens, but I suspect that she's safe, as are Patel and Badenoch.
Symbolically, JRM. He was never important, but he was always visible. And like Portillo, it might be that nothing becomes his political career like his leaving it.
To be a true Portillo moment, doesn't the loser need to be a genuine post-election leadership contender? It's not that Hunt or Rees-Mogg losing wouldn't be entertaining, but Portillo's loss was huge as he'd have been favourite for the leadership.
But also, you need to be a hate figure on the other side. Malcolm Rifkind was Foreign Secretary, objectively biggest beast to fall on the night, but nobody really minded him. If Mordaunt were to lose (and Portsmouth North is probably somewhere on the active battlefield), I doubt that there would be much 'ding dong the witch is dead' rejoicing.
Rifkind was a big 'alt universe' moment. Had he been around 97 to 01 building a profile as shadow FS he'd have been better placed to win in 01 and the Tories could have opposed Iraq and etc etc
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Wasn’t his Dad a GP?
When I was at University in the late 1980s, the place was filled with pharmacists (I shared a house with four of them).
Leaving aside the lavatorial humour about medical devices, and the skepticism about the @Foxy 's of this world ("pill rollers"), it was roughly "Community Pharmacy to make money, Hospital Pharmacy not to be bored".
Rishi's family would not be filthy rich, but they would be top 2-5% imo.
I'm sure they bought their own furniture.
From what I have read Sunak's parents are a lot like mine.
You save and save to ensure your kids and their kids have the best starting with education.
Debt, other than a mortgage, is the eighth deadliest sin.
Sunak and I were also taught the same thing, work hard and apply yourself and you'll be a success in everything you do.
For me that was true except when it comes to marriage, for Sunak it was true up and until he became PM.
He's no slacker like Boris Johnson.
Yes, Sunak is actually quite exemplary. His parents slaved away to give him a great start, he has clearly worked bloody hard to get where he is
He's not from old money, he's not got a title, he's the product of one family doing its very best for their kids. His backstory is, in fact, admirable - and he's done it with brown skin in a largely white country. Enough of the sneering
I'm still not gonna vote for him, but I will defend him from the sneerers
Sunak's big handicap is that his life experiences has nothing in common with those of the great mass of the population. This comes through time and time again (£1,000 bet; comments on working-class; asking a homeless man if he works in business; asking Welsh voters if they are looking forward to Euros; etc.)
He’s a massively privileged totally out-of-touch banker. The moment he became leader, after losing to Lettuce Liz, my tory friend put her head in her hands. She just said straightaway, ‘He will be hopeless: doesn’t have a clue about ordinary people.’
His attacks on disabled people, the mentally ill, boat people, trans people and his attempt to shoehorn into Britain a Nasty Party Singapore-style society cause nothing but utter contempt from me.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Wasn’t his Dad a GP?
When I was at University in the late 1980s, the place was filled with pharmacists (I shared a house with four of them).
Leaving aside the lavatorial humour about medical devices, and the skepticism about the @Foxy 's of this world ("pill rollers"), it was roughly "Community Pharmacy to make money, Hospital Pharmacy not to be bored".
Rishi's family would not be filthy rich, but they would be top 2-5% imo.
I'm sure they bought their own furniture.
Indeed. "He buys his own furniture" is surely the most withering putdown of that era, and explains entirely the difference between being around them - and maybe if you're lucky even being as rich as them - but never quite being one of them.
I remember asking my first year uni girlfriend if she'd like to come home with me that summer, as she was having a spat with her parents. "Don't worry, I'll be in the east wing and I doubt I'll even see them," came the droll reply. So somewhat larger than the McMansion I grew up in (with furniture my parents bought, obviously).
But these are again the narcissisms of small differences. One group of quite rich people with money and wealth from industry, vs another group of very rich people often with land and titles.
The top 0.1% vs the top 1% or so, all trying to establish a pecking order.
Meanwhile all of them are getting elected to the top jobs in the country, crushing the rights of LGBTQ people, eliminating disabled benefits if you can't dance to the right tune to get a sick note, and selling off billion dollar PPE contracts to your mates in the Dependencies.
I recommend quitting the English class system entirely, as I have done (without trying, it just sort of happened after enough of a bizarrely different life). It is refreshing. If anyone tries to impress me with their schooling/noble lineage I now find it excruciatingly embarrassing, to the point of comedy. It's all so ludicrous - and, in Britain, achingly parochial. Who was that guy, Charles? He used to do it. Jeez. Thank God he's waddled off to spend more time with his 2nd son syndrome
Great achievement or wild experience is impressive - nothing else
At the same time I wonder at my old self, that used to care about this shit. That old version of me was a fool
People should expect a labour govt and work out what it means for them. That’s what I’m doing. Labour will win. No doubt about that. What it means to the individual is what matters
Ruin from a different direction is all it means. Work on how to get them out as soon as possible. Nothing they have said in any way suggests a vision or plan. Vacuous soundbites about 'renewal' and 'change'. Bleak, meagre, buggins turn stuff. It will happen so it's already time to think about what comes next.
It may well be a different party. I personally feel - despite many calling me silly - that the Tories may well split.
I hope it is. There is no hope left in dying Gondor
I think Surrey Heath will stay Tory although it could be close, if the Tories are sensible though they will pick a well known local councillor as it will certainly be a LD target seat
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Wasn’t his Dad a GP?
When I was at University in the late 1980s, the place was filled with pharmacists (I shared a house with four of them).
Leaving aside the lavatorial humour about medical devices, and the skepticism about the @Foxy 's of this world ("pill rollers"), it was roughly "Community Pharmacy to make money, Hospital Pharmacy not to be bored".
Rishi's family would not be filthy rich, but they would be top 2-5% imo.
I'm sure they bought their own furniture.
From what I have read Sunak's parents are a lot like mine.
You save and save to ensure your kids and their kids have the best starting with education.
Debt, other than a mortgage, is the eighth deadliest sin.
Sunak and I were also taught the same thing, work hard and apply yourself and you'll be a success in everything you do.
For me that was true except when it comes to marriage, for Sunak it was true up and until he became PM.
He's no slacker like Boris Johnson.
Yes, Sunak is actually quite exemplary. His parents slaved away to give him a great start, he has clearly worked bloody hard to get where he is
He's not from old money, he's not got a title, he's the product of one family doing its very best for their kids. His backstory is, in fact, admirable - and he's done it with brown skin in a largely white country. Enough of the sneering
I'm still not gonna vote for him, but I will defend him from the sneerers
Sunak's big handicap is that his life experiences has nothing in common with those of the great mass of the population. This comes through time and time again (£1,000 bet; comments on working-class; asking a homeless man if he works in business; asking Welsh voters if they are looking forward to Euros; etc.)
He’s a massively privileged totally out-of-touch banker. The moment he became leader, after losing to Lettuce Liz, my tory friend put her head in her hands. She just said straightaway, ‘He will be hopeless: doesn’t have a clue about ordinary people.’
His attacks on disabled people, the mentally ill, boat people, trans people and his attempt to shoehorn into Britain a Nasty Party Singapore-style society cause nothing but utter contempt from me.
Hasn't Johnson just committed libel in the Mail re Jimmy Saville and SKS?
He always brags about his time as head of Crown Prosecution Service, and how he takes responsibility for everything that took place on his watch – except of course for the failure to prosecute the paedophile, necrophiliac and BBC superstar, Jimmy Savile. Just, as they say, sayin'...
That looks to be arguably just the safe side of the line, and obfuscated enough, to be technically defensible as a description.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Wasn’t his Dad a GP?
When I was at University in the late 1980s, the place was filled with pharmacists (I shared a house with four of them).
Leaving aside the lavatorial humour about medical devices, and the skepticism about the @Foxy 's of this world ("pill rollers"), it was roughly "Community Pharmacy to make money, Hospital Pharmacy not to be bored".
Rishi's family would not be filthy rich, but they would be top 2-5% imo.
I'm sure they bought their own furniture.
Indeed. "He buys his own furniture" is surely the most withering putdown of that era, and explains entirely the difference between being around them - and maybe if you're lucky even being as rich as them - but never quite being one of them.
I remember asking my first year uni girlfriend if she'd like to come home with me that summer, as she was having a spat with her parents. "Don't worry, I'll be in the east wing and I doubt I'll even see them," came the droll reply. So somewhat larger than the McMansion I grew up in (with furniture my parents bought, obviously).
But these are again the narcissisms of small differences. One group of quite rich people with money and wealth from industry, vs another group of very rich people often with land and titles.
The top 0.1% vs the top 1% or so, all trying to establish a pecking order.
Meanwhile all of them are getting elected to the top jobs in the country, crushing the rights of LGBTQ people, eliminating disabled benefits if you can't dance to the right tune to get a sick note, and selling off billion dollar PPE contracts to your mates in the Dependencies.
I recommend quitting the English class system entirely, as I have done (without trying, it just sort of happened after enough of a bizarrely different life). It is refreshing. If anyone tries to impress me with ther schooling/noble lineage I now find it excruciatingly embarrassing, to the point of comedy. And I really do. It's all so ludicrous - and, in Britain, achingly parochial. Who was that guy, Charles? He used to do it. Jeez. Thank God he's waddled off to spend more time with his 2nd son syndrome
Great achievement or wild experience is impressive - nothing else
"Do not speak slightingly of society - only people who can't get into it do that"
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Wasn’t his Dad a GP?
When I was at University in the late 1980s, the place was filled with pharmacists (I shared a house with four of them).
Leaving aside the lavatorial humour about medical devices, and the skepticism about the @Foxy 's of this world ("pill rollers"), it was roughly "Community Pharmacy to make money, Hospital Pharmacy not to be bored".
Rishi's family would not be filthy rich, but they would be top 2-5% imo.
I'm sure they bought their own furniture.
Indeed. "He buys his own furniture" is surely the most withering putdown of that era, and explains entirely the difference between being around them - and maybe if you're lucky even being as rich as them - but never quite being one of them.
I remember asking my first year uni girlfriend if she'd like to come home with me that summer, as she was having a spat with her parents. "Don't worry, I'll be in the east wing and I doubt I'll even see them," came the droll reply. So somewhat larger than the McMansion I grew up in (with furniture my parents bought, obviously).
But these are again the narcissisms of small differences. One group of quite rich people with money and wealth from industry, vs another group of very rich people often with land and titles.
The top 0.1% vs the top 1% or so, all trying to establish a pecking order.
Meanwhile all of them are getting elected to the top jobs in the country, crushing the rights of LGBTQ people, eliminating disabled benefits if you can't dance to the right tune to get a sick note, and selling off billion dollar PPE contracts to your mates in the Dependencies.
I recommend quitting the English class system entirely, as I have done (without trying, it just sort of happened after enough of a bizarrely different life). It is refreshing. If anyone tries to impress me with ther schooling/noble lineage I now find it excruciatingly embarrassing, to the point of comedy. And I really do. It's all so ludicrous - and, in Britain, achingly parochial. Who was that guy, Charles? He used to do it. Jeez. Thank God he's waddled off to spend more time with his 2nd son syndrome
Great achievement or wild experience is impressive - nothing else
"Do not speak slightingly of society - only people who can't get into it do that"
Nice quote, I also presume it refers to British society. I now spend 60-70% of my time outside Britain. In the end that has an effect on you, and one I did not expect
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Sunak strikes me as the typical upper middle class kid trying to fit in at a school full of poshos and being a chronic overachiever yet also carrying a chip on his shoulder the rest of his life, about those who had it all handed it all to them on a plate. And God knows, I know, because I'm from the same background.
The awkwardness, the sense of displacement, never quite leaves you. Existing in their world but never quite being one of them.
I have it on good authority from his neighbours he was laughed at when he showed up at his constituency in brand new wellies and barbour and Landie, but looking like all the gear and no idea. We all know the type. It took me years to feel comfortable with myself - Sunak strikes me as the sort who's 40-odd years old and has *still* not learned to feel comfortable with himself.
This is the George Osborne story too, isn't it? Looked down on, bullied to the point of having to change his name, always a bit self-conscious about it, found success in his 20s and headed for the top.
But Osborne recognised the problem. He knew in 2005 that he'd not be the next Tory PM. And, sure, there was a point in the middle of the last decade where probably he began to think "maybe, just maybe...", but he'd had the chance to grow in to himself a bit more by then - and, besides, Brexit scuppered it.
It can't be that uncommon, certainly not in Tory circles - but what sets Rishi apart is, as you say, that he hasn't learned to overcome it. Why not?
The most obvious answer is simply that he was promoted too far, too soon.
If he'd stayed Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Boris, and then became Chancellor under whoever happened to succeed him, he'd now be in pole position to become leader after the election. And he would almost certainly have done a better job of it than he's made of being PM.
So... it's the Dom Cummings / Sajid Javid spat that we should blame for how things have ended up?
Winchester is resolutely middle class and majors in intellectual not social snobbery
Yup, nobody really gave a shit if you were titled, old money, son of a dictator, assisted places. If you were relatively thick you got a hard time and if you were an obnoxious prick you got a hard time. Nobody in my time used their titles and would be mortified if it was brought up.
But if you were a northerner.
"Nobody in my time used their titles"
Yes, but some people in your year had them. And if you didn't, and you weren't brought up in that environment, you will always be a bit of an outgroup/other. The sense of otherworldliness for a son of an immigrant pharmacist would be palpable. And it shows in Rishi today. The joys of the hidden class signifiers that still exist in our society today.
Rishi's problem - at least so I'm told by some of his neighbours who I know from my younger days - is that he shows up trying to be a bit what he's not. Whereas Osborne learned you could be adjacent to those types, and respected by them, without trying to pretend to be one.
Cf Tom Wambsgans in Succession. Rishi is exactly Season 1 Tom.
"The thing about me is that I’m a terrible, terrible cunt."
Which makes Boris very much the Roman character. There wasn’t really a Truss.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Wasn’t his Dad a GP?
When I was at University in the late 1980s, the place was filled with pharmacists (I shared a house with four of them).
Leaving aside the lavatorial humour about medical devices, and the skepticism about the @Foxy 's of this world ("pill rollers"), it was roughly "Community Pharmacy to make money, Hospital Pharmacy not to be bored".
Rishi's family would not be filthy rich, but they would be top 2-5% imo.
I'm sure they bought their own furniture.
Indeed. "He buys his own furniture" is surely the most withering putdown of that era, and explains entirely the difference between being around them - and maybe if you're lucky even being as rich as them - but never quite being one of them.
I remember asking my first year uni girlfriend if she'd like to come home with me that summer, as she was having a spat with her parents. "Don't worry, I'll be in the east wing and I doubt I'll even see them," came the droll reply. So somewhat larger than the McMansion I grew up in (with furniture my parents bought, obviously).
But these are again the narcissisms of small differences. One group of quite rich people with money and wealth from industry, vs another group of very rich people often with land and titles.
The top 0.1% vs the top 1% or so, all trying to establish a pecking order.
Meanwhile all of them are getting elected to the top jobs in the country, crushing the rights of LGBTQ people, eliminating disabled benefits if you can't dance to the right tune to get a sick note, and selling off billion dollar PPE contracts to your mates in the Dependencies.
I recommend quitting the English class system entirely, as I have done (without trying, it just sort of happened after enough of a bizarrely different life). It is refreshing. If anyone tries to impress me with ther schooling/noble lineage I now find it excruciatingly embarrassing, to the point of comedy. And I really do. It's all so ludicrous - and, in Britain, achingly parochial. Who was that guy, Charles? He used to do it. Jeez. Thank God he's waddled off to spend more time with his 2nd son syndrome
Great achievement or wild experience is impressive - nothing else
Indeed.
We ascribe a certain otherworldliness to these people when really they've none nothing to deserve it.
As the conversation between Hemingway and Fitzgerald supposedly went:
Fitz: "The rich aren't like you and me, Ernest." Hemingway: "Yes, Scott. They have more money."
I was never happier than in New York, because the Yanks just saw me as another English tw*t, rather than trying to dissect my accent, education and familial background to see where I sat in the pecking order.
Oh well. If Labour put up CGT at the next budget as I suspect they will, I'll be off to Portugal anyway.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Wasn’t his Dad a GP?
When I was at University in the late 1980s, the place was filled with pharmacists (I shared a house with four of them).
Leaving aside the lavatorial humour about medical devices, and the skepticism about the @Foxy 's of this world ("pill rollers"), it was roughly "Community Pharmacy to make money, Hospital Pharmacy not to be bored".
Rishi's family would not be filthy rich, but they would be top 2-5% imo.
I'm sure they bought their own furniture.
Indeed. "He buys his own furniture" is surely the most withering putdown of that era, and explains entirely the difference between being around them - and maybe if you're lucky even being as rich as them - but never quite being one of them.
I remember asking my first year uni girlfriend if she'd like to come home with me that summer, as she was having a spat with her parents. "Don't worry, I'll be in the east wing and I doubt I'll even see them," came the droll reply. So somewhat larger than the McMansion I grew up in (with furniture my parents bought, obviously).
But these are again the narcissisms of small differences. One group of quite rich people with money and wealth from industry, vs another group of very rich people often with land and titles.
The top 0.1% vs the top 1% or so, all trying to establish a pecking order.
Meanwhile all of them are getting elected to the top jobs in the country, crushing the rights of LGBTQ people, eliminating disabled benefits if you can't dance to the right tune to get a sick note, and selling off billion dollar PPE contracts to your mates in the Dependencies.
I recommend quitting the English class system entirely, as I have done (without trying, it just sort of happened after enough of a bizarrely different life). It is refreshing. If anyone tries to impress me with ther schooling/noble lineage I now find it excruciatingly embarrassing, to the point of comedy. And I really do. It's all so ludicrous - and, in Britain, achingly parochial. Who was that guy, Charles? He used to do it. Jeez. Thank God he's waddled off to spend more time with his 2nd son syndrome
Great achievement or wild experience is impressive - nothing else
"Do not speak slightingly of society - only people who can't get into it do that"
Nice quote, I also presume it refers to British society. I now spend 60-70% of my time outside Britain. In the end that has an effect on you, and one I did not expect
I heartily reocmmend it
It's Oscar Wilde from The Importance of Being Earnest.
Stop caring about it so much. The proper response to people who try to make you feel small because they're friends with Camilla is to nod politely and get on with being brilliant in your own way. They will respect that. All this claiming that Elon Musk is the new Louis Catorz feels like you still care.
This is the worst election launch in British history, isn’t it?
I suspect if I’m completely honest it’s only us obsessives who are really paying any attention. At the moment I suspect most of the country are simply aware there’s an election coming and Sunak got rained on, and are probably looking forward to the bank holiday.
I have been mindful of the 'be careful what you wish for' maxim but sod it, I hope the Tories get utterly obliterated.
Let Reform take over the Tory remnants and turn them into a right-wing minority pressure group. Let the LDs fight it out with homeless One Nation Tories for the centre-right vote. Let Labour have a huge majority with the risks that brings - it's worth it to purge the country of the Tories.
Unfettered StarmerLabour will no doubt be boring, unambitious and safe. They'll get a few things right and cock a few things up, but honestly it's time the current Conservative Party was consigned to the dustbin of history.
Gove standing down - that's a shame, he was my pick for 2024's Portillo moment.
Who’s your pick now ?
Hunt maybe, except my impression is that the party hates him more than the country.
Braverman if it happens, but I suspect that she's safe, as are Patel and Badenoch.
Symbolically, JRM. He was never important, but he was always visible. And like Portillo, it might be that nothing becomes his political career like his leaving it.
JRM I’d love.
Mordaunt possibly ?
Penny's swordsmanship ensures she survives.
Jess Phillips, Thangham Debonnaire and maybe Jezza. I'm looking at Streeting too.
This is the worst election launch in British history, isn’t it?
I suspect if I’m completely honest it’s only us obsessives who are really paying any attention. At the moment I suspect most of the country are simply aware there’s an election coming and Sunak got rained on, and are probably looking forward to the bank holiday.
Reform UK have had to remove more than 100 general election candidates since the start of the year, more than a dozen of whom were sacked after offensive and racist comments were revealed.
The populist party is now also facing a race against time to meet its pledge to stand a full slate of candidates. It needs to select for as many as 160 constituencies before the cut-off point for nominations in 14 days.
I'm thinking of putting my name forward and then once selected campaigning for more public spending, higher taxes and rejoining the EU. Every party needs its mavericks.
Seriously, though. His handlers really, *really* hate him, don’t they?
(picture goes here)
This is getting rather pathetic. There are exit signs everywhere on a plane. Somebody takes a photo on their iphone its now a PR disaster. If Team Sunak was running around trying to cover up every exit sign or man-handling any journo who tries to take a snap, the press would be saying look how thin skinned he is.
Yes. It's less a sign of how rubbish Sunak or his campaign team are, but if how deeply unpopular he is that journos are scrabbling around to find/invent examples of him being crap.
Unless there comes to be a bit more substance to it I think it will be a game they will tire of pretty soon.
I think we can rely on Sunak to supply the substance. He is genuinely the guy in the video bragging about how he knew some working, well actually lower middle, class chaps at Oxford, huzzah. There's a lot of rich comedy to come.
With all due respect, Sunak doesn't really come from money. His parents owned a pharmacy and worked - one might imagine - 18 hour days to pay for their son to go to Winchester.
He went from there to Oxford to a Hedge Fund to Parliament. And I'm sure the connections he made on the way helped, but he isn't from some uber wealthy family or from old or new money.
Wasn’t his Dad a GP?
When I was at University in the late 1980s, the place was filled with pharmacists (I shared a house with four of them).
Leaving aside the lavatorial humour about medical devices, and the skepticism about the @Foxy 's of this world ("pill rollers"), it was roughly "Community Pharmacy to make money, Hospital Pharmacy not to be bored".
Rishi's family would not be filthy rich, but they would be top 2-5% imo.
I'm sure they bought their own furniture.
Indeed. "He buys his own furniture" is surely the most withering putdown of that era, and explains entirely the difference between being around them - and maybe if you're lucky even being as rich as them - but never quite being one of them.
I remember asking my first year uni girlfriend if she'd like to come home with me that summer, as she was having a spat with her parents. "Don't worry, I'll be in the east wing and I doubt I'll even see them," came the droll reply. So somewhat larger than the McMansion I grew up in (with furniture my parents bought, obviously).
But these are again the narcissisms of small differences. One group of quite rich people with money and wealth from industry, vs another group of very rich people often with land and titles.
The top 0.1% vs the top 1% or so, all trying to establish a pecking order.
Meanwhile all of them are getting elected to the top jobs in the country, crushing the rights of LGBTQ people, eliminating disabled benefits if you can't dance to the right tune to get a sick note, and selling off billion dollar PPE contracts to your mates in the Dependencies.
I recommend quitting the English class system entirely, as I have done (without trying, it just sort of happened after enough of a bizarrely different life). It is refreshing. If anyone tries to impress me with ther schooling/noble lineage I now find it excruciatingly embarrassing, to the point of comedy. And I really do. It's all so ludicrous - and, in Britain, achingly parochial. Who was that guy, Charles? He used to do it. Jeez. Thank God he's waddled off to spend more time with his 2nd son syndrome
Great achievement or wild experience is impressive - nothing else
"Do not speak slightingly of society - only people who can't get into it do that"
Nice quote, I also presume it refers to British society. I now spend 60-70% of my time outside Britain. In the end that has an effect on you, and one I did not expect
I heartily reocmmend it
It's Oscar Wilde from The Importance of Being Earnest.
Stop caring about it so much. The proper response to people who try to make you feel small because they're friends with Camilla is to nod politely and get on with being brilliant in your own way. They will respect that. All this claiming that Elon Musk is the new Louis Catorz feels like you still care.
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But even Sunak, a couple of notches further down the social scale, was still far beyond what the vast majority of us will ever experience. Or Gordon Brown, "humble son of the manse" - except that was a deeply respected position (and his father did a stint as Moderator of the CoS!), and he'd almost certainly have been the poshest boy in his school.
Starmer is 60. Gove is 56.
Maybe he is talking about the Con leadership??
I believe he has been working behind scenes for Kemi???
Mordaunt possibly ?
I doubt it. He'll just be plotting from HoL I suspect.
For what it's worth, I think Reform would be essentially nowhere, the Conservatives would be polling about six or seven points better, but the LDs and Labour would both also be up, albeit smaller amounts. Essentially, 12 points of Reform would go, mostly to the Conservatives, but some to WNV. But then again, so would some centrist Conservatives.
I think there is also the risk that tactical voting would be more pronounced in such a world.
Of course, the reality is that globally incumbents are getting hammered because wages have not kept up with prices.
And that is true irrespective of the colour of the rosette of the party in power.
Of course, Sunak supporting him in the first place makes me question his judgment. I only say this because he seems to think supporting JC makes SKS's judgment also questionable.
The Tory Party putting Johnson into Number 10 in the first place is something I will have to spend a lot of years getting over before I consider voting for them again.
He was always a pretty capable minister (whether you agreed with him or not, he was driven and knew his brief). Suspect he'd be quite in demand, and knows the future doesn't hold much as an aging, backbench, opposition MP.
In my lifetime I've lived through two "change" elections (1997 and 2010) and you do see the names you're familiar with being swept away.
There is a big difference between comparing two countries with historic grievances which might contradict positions held to being a racist apartheid loving knob. Now i spent a lot of time in SA under apartheid and after apartheid and even as a child I could see how disgusting it was under apartheid, sadly as an adult you haven’t reassessed your position on downblousing and the sad tale of Russian Oligarchs losing their lovely yachts.
Stick to a visual medium rather than words, it works for you and nobody gets to hear the crap going on inside your head.
Logan RoyRupert Murdoch is a huge fan.Outside chance of The Telegraph.
There aren't going to be many Tory MPs left soon.
The sad thing is I know a couple of types who were like that from my school days, and they're hyper confident and absolutely masters of their domain now... While Rishi as a 44 year old still somehow comes off as "that kid you want to give a wedgie to".
I don't know why that is, but it's his equivalent of Ed Miliband eating a bacon buttie - even though it should have absolutely no bearing on his ability to run the country, it's that perceptual filter we all have that says "yep, he's up for the job" vs "he's not". And Rishi seems like the kid who never grew out of his shell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9EnbLQzkJ8
Two minutes from tonight's HIGNFY.
At least Jeremy Hunt isn’t being a coward. (So far)
But if things go pear shaped in Newcastle-under-Lyme, you must on no account deploy the header Bell End.
It will happen so it's already time to think about what comes next.
On BBC4 Top of the Pops replays it's 22nd February 1996, and the current track is Lifted by the Lighthouse Family.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcfour
His attacks on disabled people, the mentally ill, boat people, trans people and his attempt to shoehorn into Britain a Nasty Party Singapore-style society cause nothing but utter contempt from me.
Great achievement or wild experience is impressive - nothing else
At the same time I wonder at my old self, that used to care about this shit. That old version of me was a fool
Oh, Brady don't hurt me
Don't hurt me
No more
Not meant to be personally rude, I promise. Just true. The more people back people like Suella the further away from No.10 the Party will be.
I heartily reocmmend it
Hadaway and shite
(Not quite sure what it means !)
We ascribe a certain otherworldliness to these people when really they've none nothing to deserve it.
As the conversation between Hemingway and Fitzgerald supposedly went:
Fitz: "The rich aren't like you and me, Ernest."
Hemingway: "Yes, Scott. They have more money."
I was never happier than in New York, because the Yanks just saw me as another English tw*t, rather than trying to dissect my accent, education and familial background to see where I sat in the pecking order.
Oh well. If Labour put up CGT at the next budget as I suspect they will, I'll be off to Portugal anyway.
https://x.com/daaronovitch/status/1794068737781338473?s=61
Stop caring about it so much. The proper response to people who try to make you feel small because they're friends with Camilla is to nod politely and get on with being brilliant in your own way. They will respect that. All this claiming that Elon Musk is the new Louis Catorz feels like you still care.
But yes, it’s been pretty bad.
Oh well, it falls to me.
Let Reform take over the Tory remnants and turn them into a right-wing minority pressure group. Let the LDs fight it out with homeless One Nation Tories for the centre-right vote. Let Labour have a huge majority with the risks that brings - it's worth it to purge the country of the Tories.
Unfettered StarmerLabour will no doubt be boring, unambitious and safe. They'll get a few things right and cock a few things up, but honestly it's time the current Conservative Party was consigned to the dustbin of history.
Jess Phillips, Thangham Debonnaire and maybe Jezza. I'm looking at Streeting too.
But not so much in Wales (Rishi to note) 😈
7:11 PM · May 24, 2024
https://x.com/daaronovitch/status/1794068737781338473?s=61
TSE and I both suggested it on this here pb. Damn! Aaronovitch beat me by 10 minutes.
The populist party is now also facing a race against time to meet its pledge to stand a full slate of candidates. It needs to select for as many as 160 constituencies before the cut-off point for nominations in 14 days.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/may/24/reform-uk-forced-to-remove-more-than-100-general-election-candidates-in-2024
I'm thinking of putting my name forward and then once selected campaigning for more public spending, higher taxes and rejoining the EU. Every party needs its mavericks.