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The Past Is Not Another Country – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,087

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    The swastika is used to evoke the Nazi Party, with a small set of purposes, primarily to intimidate individuals or to undermine public order in the eyes of a reasonable person. There is no widespread use of swastikas in the UK for other purposes.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,915
    IanB2 said:

    Taz said:

    Glad to hear the Tories are sorting out the most important issue of the UK right now - gender specific toilets.

    Why not allow businesses to decide based on what their customers want ? Pointless red tape. More of it. It’s utterly pathetic. Why should the govt tell any organisation how to organise their toilets.
    Because Kemi B thinks there are votes in it.

    (Given that the button being pressed here is building regs and everyone knows that nobody is building anything anyway, this is selling a sizzle not a sausage. I doubt that those this is meant to impress will be impressed.)
    They just hope Labour will vote against it and they can make something of it.
    It’s worth pointing out that there’s a whole raft of legislation and planning guidelines on toilets in non-residential spaces. Disabled access, baby changing space etc etc.

    This can lead to endless fun for everyone. Imagine you have a grade I listed building. Open to the public…..
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,611
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Unless I've misunderstood, Netanyahu seems to be saying to Hamas:

    1. Unless you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah.
    2. If you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah anyway.

    Sounds like Netanyahu.

    However, I think it unlikely the Americans would agree to Rafah’s destruction if a ceasefire was signed.

    Another good reason for Hamas to agree for one.

    But they won’t because they’re (a) not actually fighting to win a ground war (b) don’t care any more than Netanyahu does about the ordinary people who are being killed and (c) are even madder than he is.
    Cheeks of the same arse
    A wicked slander upon* arses.

    *turned by autocorrect into 'up one!'
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,611
    EPG said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    The swastika is used to evoke the Nazi Party, with a small set of purposes, primarily to intimidate individuals or to undermine public order in the eyes of a reasonable person. There is no widespread use of swastikas in the UK for other purposes.
    Well, not now.

    It used to be the symbol of Nelson Publishing (for instance).

    I have a very beautiful leather bound set of Kipling's works - covered in swastikas.

    Plus a first edition of Buchan's Prester John ditto.

    There is of course a certain irony to this given the content of the books...
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,715
    EPG said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    The swastika is used to evoke the Nazi Party, with a small set of purposes, primarily to intimidate individuals or to undermine public order in the eyes of a reasonable person. There is no widespread use of swastikas in the UK for other purposes.
    Unless you live in Upminster, where it means "Underground station".

    https://www.mylondon.news/news/east-london-news/london-underground-station-massive-swastika-20564717

  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,801
    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    Standing for the Green Party? Joke.

    Not much evidence of a strong demand for rewilding.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,722
    edited May 6
    Andy_JS said:

    I am completely lost, if you don't know if somebody is a man or a woman, what should you call them?

    In the Derby area you could call them duck. The word can be used by anyone when talking to anyone else. Unusual to have a traditionally gender neutral word like that.
    A male duck or a female duck though?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,611
    kjh said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I am completely lost, if you don't know if somebody is a man or a woman, what should you call them?

    In the Derby area you could call them duck. The word can be used by anyone when talking to anyone else. Unusual to have a traditionally gender neutral word like that.
    A male duck or a female duck though?
    That question just shows the whole debate is just quackers.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,452
    Don’t abandon us, Muslim voters, part XXI 😂

    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1787475160129306767?s=61
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    DonkeysDonkeys Posts: 723
    edited May 6
    ydoethur said:

    Unless I've misunderstood, Netanyahu seems to be saying to Hamas:

    1. Unless you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah.
    2. If you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah anyway.

    Sounds like Netanyahu.

    However, I think it unlikely the Americans would agree to Rafah’s destruction if a ceasefire was signed.

    Another good reason for Hamas to agree for one.

    But they won’t because they’re (a) not actually fighting to win a ground war (b) don’t care any more than Netanyahu does about the ordinary people who are being killed and (c) are even madder than he is.
    On a): Gaza has been under siege since 2007. Hence the euphoria of the October breakout and prisoner capture. They're not fighting a sea battle either. See what they are fighting rather than what they're not. Their backs are to the wall. There have been other conflicts of that kind in world history.

    On b): so basically a group of powerful people separate from the large mass of people suffer from some kind of totally narcisstic martyrdom complex, making for an endgame worse than at Masada and Montsegur? They really don't give a toss for the large majority of Palestinians in Gaza? Put down the cartoon book and ask why a Palestinian picks up a weapon. What would you do? Most people who join the IRM are not at senior level or anywhere near it. Plus of course the IRM are not the only armed resistance organisation in Gaza. They're not even the only armed RO that took part in the October breakout. None of the organisations would have any support base whatsoever if they didn't give financial help to widows and orphans and to families of the jailed as well as the bereaved.

    c) - Netanyahu's not mad.

    How would the USA stop the Israelis from destroying Rafah? Threaten to force AIPAC to register under FARA? Will Congress vote for that?

    The USA will probably provide the scanners to screen the DPs before they let them on the evacuation ships.

    The USA is the country that keeps vetoing UNSC resolutions that are critical of Israel. They 'll do fuck all to hinder their rabid friends. If they make noises it's to do with Gulf money, but at the end of the day Gulf money doesn't count for fuck.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,452
    Donkeys said:

    ydoethur said:

    Unless I've misunderstood, Netanyahu seems to be saying to Hamas:

    1. Unless you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah.
    2. If you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah anyway.

    Sounds like Netanyahu.

    However, I think it unlikely the Americans would agree to Rafah’s destruction if a ceasefire was signed.

    Another good reason for Hamas to agree for one.

    But they won’t because they’re (a) not actually fighting to win a ground war (b) don’t care any more than Netanyahu does about the ordinary people who are being killed and (c) are even madder than he is.
    On a): Gaza has been under siege since 2007. Hence the euphoria of the October breakout and prisoner capture. They're not fighting a sea battle either. See what they are fighting rather than what they're not. Their backs are to the wall. There have been other conflicts of that kind in world history.

    On b): so basically a group of powerful people separate from the large mass of people suffer from some kind of totally narcisstic martyrdom complex, making for an endgame worse than at Masada and Montsegur? They really don't give a toss for the large majority of Palestinians in Gaza? Put down the cartoon book and ask why a Palestinian picks up a weapon. What would you do? Most people who join the IRM are not at senior level or anywhere near it. Plus of course the IRM are not the only armed resistance organisation in Gaza. They're not even the only armed RO that took part in the October breakout. None of the organisations would have any support base whatsoever if they didn't give financial help to widows and orphans and to families of the jailed as well as the bereaved.

    c) - Netanyahu's not mad.

    How would the USA stop the Israelis from destroying Rafah? Threaten to force AIPAC to register under FARA? Will Congress vote for that?

    The USA will probably provide the scanners to screen the DPs before they let them on the evacuation ships.

    The USA is the country that keeps vetoing UNSC resolutions that are critical of Israel. They 'll do fuck all to hinder their rabid friends. If they make noises it's to do with Gulf money, but at the end of the day Gulf money doesn't count for fuck.
    The US can’t, or won’t, stop it. It’s going to happen. Because the west is comfortable with it happening
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,915
    kjh said:

    MattW said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Are tiny cafes, which usually have only one loo, now required to have two before they can open?

    The change to building regulations will also allow contained, universal toilets in addition to single-sex toilets where space allows, or instead of single-sex toilets where there is not enough space.

    A universal toilet is defined by the government as a self-contained room with a toilet and sink for individual use.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2xly8vxreo

    Not that much Parliamentary time left though, even if the election is December.
    Single-sex toilets or single-gender toilets?
    Unless there are bouncers upskirting customers it will surely be the latter.

    The more they bang on about Woke and Trans the more votes the Tories lose.
    At last, a job for which Lozza is eminently qualified.


    He is quite unhinged.

    What turned a fairly successful actor, married to a lovely wife, into a loon?
    Feels awfully simplistic to say that the divorce sent him over the edge, but simplistic doesn't mean wrong.

    And once you start in the vortex of "will spout rubbish for clicks, likes or cash", it's awfully hard to get out. Even if it starts as a persona, it becomes the reality.

    (Aren't there stories from WW2 of Colditz prisoners feigning madness to try to escape and that sending them properly mad?)
    Last point - yes.

    There was also Douglas Bader preventing his orderly, who was an NCO or more junior working in an officers' camp, being repatriated as he had become entitled to be.

    'He's my lackey, and he's staying my lackey.'
    Bader appears to have been quite an unpleasant fellow. There are quite a few stories from Colditz. Also his political views were very simple and although proudly British one might view that he was fighting for the wrong side. I used to read his column in the Sunday Express when I was a youngster and it wasn't pleasant. And finally one of my closest friends' father was a fighter pilot in WW2 and slightly knew him and took an instant dislike to him saying he was incredibly arrogant.

    Still if you are going to win a war you probably need people like that.

    PS He also acknowledged that the film wasn't representative of him
    Yes, he once said that being played by Kenneth Moore was an incredible gift.

    Man of those who fought in the war weren’t exactly shining knights.

    Sailor Malan comes to mind.
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    DonkeysDonkeys Posts: 723
    Scotland: having looked at the idea that now that Humza Yousaf has been removed the Bute House Agreement will be restored, I decided no, it won't be... The Scottish Green Party are calling for Britain to end its complicity in the Gaza genocide:

    https://greens.scot/news/uk-must-end-complicity-in-gaza-genocide
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,087
    ydoethur said:

    EPG said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    The swastika is used to evoke the Nazi Party, with a small set of purposes, primarily to intimidate individuals or to undermine public order in the eyes of a reasonable person. There is no widespread use of swastikas in the UK for other purposes.
    Well, not now.

    It used to be the symbol of Nelson Publishing (for instance).

    I have a very beautiful leather bound set of Kipling's works - covered in swastikas.

    Plus a first edition of Buchan's Prester John ditto.

    There is of course a certain irony to this given the content of the books...
    Correct, this has changed, and nobody waving a swastika today is alluding to antebellum Sanskritophilia, which is the difference.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,162
    Taz said:

    Don’t abandon us, Muslim voters, part XXI 😂

    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1787475160129306767?s=61

    That’s aid unimpeded by Hamas firing rockets at the aid checkpoints?
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,801
    kjh said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I am completely lost, if you don't know if somebody is a man or a woman, what should you call them?

    In the Derby area you could call them duck. The word can be used by anyone when talking to anyone else. Unusual to have a traditionally gender neutral word like that.
    A male duck or a female duck though?
    The Drake has stepped down.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,567
    Taz said:

    Don’t abandon us, Muslim voters, part XXI 😂

    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1787475160129306767?s=61

    The comments suggest more than a few aren't convinced by this new found earnestness
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,173
    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I am completely lost, if you don't know if somebody is a man or a woman, what should you call them?

    In the Derby area you could call them duck. The word can be used by anyone when talking to anyone else. Unusual to have a traditionally gender neutral word like that.
    A male duck or a female duck though?
    That question just shows the whole debate is just quackers.
    Not at all. Duck can be an individual of certain species within the family Anatinae, without reference to gender or sex.

    "I saw a pair of ducks on the pond this morning."
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,756

    dixiedean said:

    Are tiny cafes, which usually have only one loo, now required to have two before they can open?

    The change to building regulations will also allow contained, universal toilets in addition to single-sex toilets where space allows, or instead of single-sex toilets where there is not enough space.

    A universal toilet is defined by the government as a self-contained room with a toilet and sink for individual use.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2xly8vxreo

    Not that much Parliamentary time left though, even if the election is December.
    "Not enough space" being an extreeeeeeeeeeemly fluid (ahem) "standard".
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Slight u-turn from “Israel has that right” to cut off food & electricity, but who cares?

    With more than a million Palestinian civilians sheltering in Rafah, an Israeli offensive must not go ahead.

    There must be an immediate ceasefire, the immediate release of all hostages, and unimpeded aid into Gaza that can be delivered regularly, quickly and safely.


    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1787475160129306767?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,850
    Dura_Ace said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    This is staggeringly ignorant. The takbir is used in many social contexts as well as its liturgical primacy. It's the first line of both the adhan and iqama.

    It's ludicrously and offensively reductive to characterise it as a "rallying call for terrorists and extremists".
    Unfortunately, it's clearly both of these things. The offence is entirely something that Islam brings upon itself.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,689

    Andy_JS said:

    If Labour's main concern is avoiding complacency going into the election, Thrasher's figures have done them a service.

    Agreed. SKS could barely have asked for more. Great concern trolling by Slasher and Slavings.
    Professor Thrashers analysis, Labour just about 7 ahead in GE terms, dovetails perfectly with my own I gave out a week before Thrasher. So straight after the Hall debacle, are you sure this isn’t another case of experts telling you something you don’t like the sound of, so you choose to disbelieve it?
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,397
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Thanks, Cyclefree, an interesting read as always. It got me thinking about lawyers. Do I expect them to have higher ethical standards than the average person? Part of me does. Like doctors and chartered accountants they're meant to have a loyalty to something higher than their own interests The roll call of heroic lawyers in fiction is long. It's as long as that for doctors and much longer than for chartered accountants. Yet in truth I can't say that the lawyers I've known (numerous) have lived up to this. Perhaps that's because they've been of the corporate 'city' variety rather than anything like Rumpole or Atticus Finch. Lawyers rather like the PO ones in other words. People engaged in a well paid white-collar career rather than a profession.

    You don't expect them to be heroes, Kin, but you kind of expect them to obey the law. The PO's lawyers did not.

    Let's see if they get the same treatment as me and thee, if we did likewise.
    What makes this stand out - from what you might call routine poor or selfish behaviour in the corporate world - is that it involves knowingly ruining the lives of innocent people. These sorts of offences tend to be thought of as inherently less serious than the physical sort and I think that's wrong. They can be just as wicked. Eg you read about people being conned out of all their savings. The victims are left not just broke but broken. Here, we have financial loss plus loss of good name and (for some) jail and loss of freedom. So as white collar crime goes this is right up there. It's violence really and I think that's the best way to think about it. A white collar crime of violence.
    Yes, I agree.

    It's about as bad as it gets in my book, yet displays of genuine compassion and concern from those responsible have been almost entirely lacking. Threy just don't want to accept responsibility, which confirms as far as I am concerned that we are talking about the lowest form of pond life.

    The best suggestion I have heard to date is that they all the suspects should be imprisoned until such time as they can prove themselves innocent, which is after what happened to the Subpostmasters.

    As if, eh...?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,915
    Dura_Ace said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    This is staggeringly ignorant. The takbir is used in many social contexts as well as its liturgical primacy. It's the first line of both the adhan and iqama.

    It's ludicrously and offensively reductive to characterise it as a "rallying call for terrorists and extremists".
    Omnium said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    This is staggeringly ignorant. The takbir is used in many social contexts as well as its liturgical primacy. It's the first line of both the adhan and iqama.

    It's ludicrously and offensively reductive to characterise it as a "rallying call for terrorists and extremists".
    Unfortunately, it's clearly both of these things. The offence is entirely something that Islam brings upon itself.
    Bit like if L. Fox and chums have a little parade where they start chanting “Crusade!”
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,850

    Dura_Ace said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    This is staggeringly ignorant. The takbir is used in many social contexts as well as its liturgical primacy. It's the first line of both the adhan and iqama.

    It's ludicrously and offensively reductive to characterise it as a "rallying call for terrorists and extremists".
    Omnium said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    This is staggeringly ignorant. The takbir is used in many social contexts as well as its liturgical primacy. It's the first line of both the adhan and iqama.

    It's ludicrously and offensively reductive to characterise it as a "rallying call for terrorists and extremists".
    Unfortunately, it's clearly both of these things. The offence is entirely something that Islam brings upon itself.
    Bit like if L. Fox and chums have a little parade where they start chanting “Crusade!”
    Exactly that. We've mostly moved on though.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,689
    edited May 6

    I am no longer confident about my July bet, Rishi is going to let this run and run isn't he?

    No shit Sherlock.

    You want a July election because you want the Tories to lose and Labour in Downing Street.

    What possible reason has Rishi got to call an election?

    It'll be January 2025.
    The attack line “you are ramping an early election because you want a Labour government early whilst they are still comfortably ahead in the polls” i really don’t understand the mentality of. Early? About 15 weeks early? You are still calling that early election? What do you expect to change for better in 15 weeks?

    May and June, inflation will look very good, economic growth too. Maybe Rwanda flights will neutralise the fact boats keep coming in record numbers, the annual splurge tends to come from July.

    From July onward what can we expect? More boats, and perhaps problems with Rwanda Scheme. A Covid report has been promised. So too higher energy costs and food prices. Campaign season where you launch your re-election bid - from a morgue. Another fiscal event might be tricky too - rabbit from hat for tax cuts will be expected, but will OBR allow it? The NI cuts have already eaten headroom. It hasn’t been explained how Sunak’s Defence Spending increase Labour won’t commit to, is being properly funded by Sunak, another fiscal event will have to get that through the OBR.

    The Fink who worked with John Major has often commented, waiting till the last minute generated a squatting narrative, which itself worked against historic swingback.

    The excessive focus on every minutiae in relation to politics, during a month of General Election campaigning, surely means picking 5 weeks where some good news will be coming in to help you, and not bad news to undermine you. If the better news 5 weeks is June, the worse news stories and government data releases is September/October, then, genuine question, why exactly are you delaying?
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    DonkeysDonkeys Posts: 723
    "We cannot trust the promises of gentiles", declared Netanyahu yesterday.

    Perhaps the Egyptian authorities could prove him right by arresting the Israeli negotiators in Cairo and flying them up the Hague?
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,303
    Swinney returned as leader of the SNP (@ 17/2)
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    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,824
    EPG said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    The swastika is used to evoke the Nazi Party, with a small set of purposes, primarily to intimidate individuals or to undermine public order in the eyes of a reasonable person. There is no widespread use of swastikas in the UK for other purposes.
    That's why I said previously. Previously there were other, multicultural, uses for the swastika as a traditional Persian design used by Hindus, Buddhists and Jains. Nowadays its not used, due to its darker connotations.

    Similarly with Allahu Akbar. It may have once been an innocent phrase, but today it is a rallying cry for terrorists and extremists.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,303
    Pretty savage critique of Yousless

    @SkyNewsBreak

    SNP Leader John Swinney says the party is now "back on the front foot" - describing his leadership as the "beginning of a new chapter in our party’s history"
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,715

    I am no longer confident about my July bet, Rishi is going to let this run and run isn't he?

    No shit Sherlock.

    You want a July election because you want the Tories to lose and Labour in Downing Street.

    What possible reason has Rishi got to call an election?

    It'll be January 2025.
    The attack line “you are ramping an early election because you want a Labour government early whilst they are still comfortably ahead in the polls” i really don’t understand the mentality of. Early? About 15 weeks early? You are still calling that early election? What do you expect to change for better in 15 weeks?

    May and June, inflation will look very good, economic growth too. Maybe Rwanda flights will neutralise the fact boats keep coming in record numbers, the annual splurge tends to come from July.

    From July onward what can we expect? More boats, and perhaps problems with Rwanda Scheme. A Covid report has been promised. So too higher energy costs and food prices. Campaign season where you launch your re-election bid - from a morgue. Another fiscal event might be tricky too - rabbit from hat for tax cuts will be expected, but will OBR allow it? The NI cuts have already eaten headroom. It hasn’t been explained how Sunak’s Defence Spending increase Labour won’t commit to, is being properly funded by Sunak, another fiscal event will have to get that through the OBR.

    The Fink who worked with John Major has often commented, waiting till the last minute generated a squatting narrative, which itself worked against historic swingback.

    The excessive focus on every minutiae in relation to politics, during a month of General Election campaigning, surely means picking 5 weeks where some good news will be coming in to help you, and not bad news to undermine you. If the better news 5 weeks is June, the worse news stories is September/October, then, genuine question, why exactly are you delaying?
    Same reason that losing gamblers don't stop until they have lost their clothes and have to walk out wearing a wooden barrel to cover their modesty.

    They hope that their losses are bad luck, not bad judgement, and that their luck is about to turn.

    Whatever PNV + UNS says, however eminent the professor using PNV + UNS is to predict a hung parliament, the geography of the results is horrible for the Conservatives. Losing in Farnborough, Havant, North Yorkshire etc does not presage a good win in the general.

    I agree that the most likely way is down from here. It has been for a while. But given how bad the current situation for the Conservatives (let's say 165 seats, as bad as Major in 1997), the downside of hanging on (140? 120? 100?) isn't as bad as the current sunk Sunak losses. So they might as well hang on.

    And who knows, maybe the horse will learn to sing.
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,469

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Olly said:

    Latest gem from Matt Goodwin.

    In some areas of Britain we are now witnessing the rise of a darker, tribal, more sectarian politics which, ironically, is emerging under the banner of the so-called ‘liberal progressive’ Greens"

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1787422914385428734

    Darker, tribal more sectarian politics?

    Goodwin has real Chutzpah.
    Incompetent writing, because it is hopelessly ambiguous, too. Unless 'Britain' means 'England'.

    Edit: and in any case he's about half a century out of date (at least) for Glasgow.
    Speaking of which, amazing scenes at Ibrox yesterday.
    (open the tweet below for the bigger picture)



    https://x.com/silviotattiscon/status/1787101006846673392?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q




    ASLEF?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,611
    Donkeys said:

    ydoethur said:

    Unless I've misunderstood, Netanyahu seems to be saying to Hamas:

    1. Unless you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah.
    2. If you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah anyway.

    Sounds like Netanyahu.

    However, I think it unlikely the Americans would agree to Rafah’s destruction if a ceasefire was signed.

    Another good reason for Hamas to agree for one.

    But they won’t because they’re (a) not actually fighting to win a ground war (b) don’t care any more than Netanyahu does about the ordinary people who are being killed and (c) are even madder than he is.
    On a): Gaza has been under siege since 2007. Hence the euphoria of the October breakout and prisoner capture. They're not fighting a sea battle either. See what they are fighting rather than what they're not. Their backs are to the wall. There have been other conflicts of that kind in world history.

    On b): so basically a group of powerful people separate from the large mass of people suffer from some kind of totally narcisstic martyrdom complex, making for an endgame worse than at Masada and Montsegur? They really don't give a toss for the large majority of Palestinians in Gaza? Put down the cartoon book and ask why a Palestinian picks up a weapon. What would you do? Most people who join the IRM are not at senior level or anywhere near it. Plus of course the IRM are not the only armed resistance organisation in Gaza. They're not even the only armed RO that took part in the October breakout. None of the organisations would have any support base whatsoever if they didn't give financial help to widows and orphans and to families of the jailed as well as the bereaved.

    c) - Netanyahu's not mad.

    How would the USA stop the Israelis from destroying Rafah? Threaten to force AIPAC to register under FARA? Will Congress vote for that?

    The USA will probably provide the scanners to screen the DPs before they let them on the evacuation ships.

    The USA is the country that keeps vetoing UNSC resolutions that are critical of Israel. They 'll do fuck all to hinder their rabid friends. If they make noises it's to do with Gulf money, but at the end of the day Gulf money doesn't count for fuck.
    You forgot the bit about the red heifer.
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    OllyOlly Posts: 42
    Donkeys said:

    "We cannot trust the promises of gentiles", declared Netanyahu yesterday.

    Perhaps the Egyptian authorities could prove him right by arresting the Israeli negotiators in Cairo and flying them up the Hague?

    Imagine if someone said "We cannot trust the promises of Jews". They would be out of public life in a heartbeat. And yet there is Netanyahu making such statements and still with Americas full support.
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    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,252
    Does anyone think Rishi will be going round to the Palace this week?
  • Options
    BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 1,206
    Just imagine if Richard Leonard was still Scots Labour leader
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,915
    Omnium said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    This is staggeringly ignorant. The takbir is used in many social contexts as well as its liturgical primacy. It's the first line of both the adhan and iqama.

    It's ludicrously and offensively reductive to characterise it as a "rallying call for terrorists and extremists".
    Omnium said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    This is staggeringly ignorant. The takbir is used in many social contexts as well as its liturgical primacy. It's the first line of both the adhan and iqama.

    It's ludicrously and offensively reductive to characterise it as a "rallying call for terrorists and extremists".
    Unfortunately, it's clearly both of these things. The offence is entirely something that Islam brings upon itself.
    Bit like if L. Fox and chums have a little parade where they start chanting “Crusade!”
    Exactly that. We've mostly moved on though.
    Moved on?

    I’m getting the band back together, and we’ll go and relieve some heretics of the burden of their heresy. And their money.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,737
    edited May 6
    Omnium said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    This is staggeringly ignorant. The takbir is used in many social contexts as well as its liturgical primacy. It's the first line of both the adhan and iqama.

    It's ludicrously and offensively reductive to characterise it as a "rallying call for terrorists and extremists".
    Omnium said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    This is staggeringly ignorant. The takbir is used in many social contexts as well as its liturgical primacy. It's the first line of both the adhan and iqama.

    It's ludicrously and offensively reductive to characterise it as a "rallying call for terrorists and extremists".
    Unfortunately, it's clearly both of these things. The offence is entirely something that Islam brings upon itself.
    Bit like if L. Fox and chums have a little parade where they start chanting “Crusade!”
    Exactly that. We've mostly moved on though.
    A moving on we have not yet done is to see the Crusades in the same sort of light as we see the conquest and occupation of Jerusalem/Judah/Israel (other sites and names for them are available) by the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Eastern Romans, Persians again, Arabs/Muslims in multiple forms up to the Ottomans and so on. Neither better nor worse. Just sad.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,541

    Labour's lead over the Tories is down to just 7%, according to an updated National Equivalent Vote estimate.

    Sky Elections Analyst Prof Michael Thrasher says Labour's lead needs to be double that to secure a majority.
    @skynews

    You are Rishi Sunak and I claim my £5!

    We have been discussing this since Thrasher made his analysis. No Wales, no Scotland and no caveat as to why a thesis based on council elections *could* be bollocks.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,156
    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    I am completely lost, if you don't know if somebody is a man or a woman, what should you call them?

    mate , pal , sunshine , hundreds to pick from
    There is a bit of a gap as to an entirely neutral term.

    'Mate' - I'm not your mate, 'Pal' - suggests a certain aggression, 'Sunshine' - unwise , 'Good person' - even more unwise!

    Mostly though the 'Excuse me, (fill in the label)' just finishes up as 'Excuse me'. (Sir works mostly, but feels daft for oiks, madam is often ok, miss equally so, young lady works, but old lady never does, and 'lady' sounds rude)

    Comrade usually avoids a discussion; a 'quizzical" glance and a hurry to avoid what is obviously a strange person.
  • Options
    MJWMJW Posts: 1,400
    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    Nothing wrong with those, but I believe the serious objection to the Greens' candidate in Leeds is that he celebrated Hamas' actions on 7 October and has tweeted stuff about Palestine being returned from the 'white settler-colonialists' to its 'indigenous' inhabitants on a since deleted account.

    That's what Leeds Jewish Representative Councils have written to the Greens about.

    Which if stood up is dangerously awful and unacceptable in the case of the first, and in the case of the second is ahistorical racist nonsense (A majority of Israelis are of Middle Eastern origin even if you don't count Ashkenazi Jews as such) that would not sound out of place in the mouths of the BNP if directed from, say a Brit.

    The Mail obviously whip things up, but those who always deny the problem and say racist sentiments are acceptable because they are 'pro-Palestinian' are just as bad as the Mail in allowing the spread of hate.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,756

    Glad to hear the Tories are sorting out the most important issue of the UK right now - gender specific toilets.

    Makes sense IF you are convinced that your so-called political career is swirling is in the toilet . . . soon to be flushed down the drain . . .
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,689

    Does anyone think Rishi will be going round to the Palace this week?

    Definitely not. He’ll wait till next Monday.
  • Options
    DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 470
    I still think January 2025 because for it to be any other date requires a decision that those making it can be blamed for. Why did we go for July 2024 before the Rwanda flights were fully running? Why did we go for October 2024 before the effects of the fiscal event could be felt by the public? If there's no decision made then it will be January 2025 by default.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,915
    edited May 6

    EPG said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    The swastika is used to evoke the Nazi Party, with a small set of purposes, primarily to intimidate individuals or to undermine public order in the eyes of a reasonable person. There is no widespread use of swastikas in the UK for other purposes.
    That's why I said previously. Previously there were other, multicultural, uses for the swastika as a traditional Persian design used by Hindus, Buddhists and Jains. Nowadays its not used, due to its darker connotations.

    Similarly with Allahu Akbar. It may have once been an innocent phrase, but today it is a rallying cry for terrorists and extremists.
    The “other way” swastika is used quite a bit in India and Nepal.

    I spent a bit of time trying to explain to a little old lady why the tourists wouldn’t buy one version of the little, hand made brass boxes she was selling. Lovely little local festival, trying to remember where in Nepal.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,611
    Scott_xP said:

    Pretty savage critique of Yousless

    @SkyNewsBreak

    SNP Leader John Swinney says the party is now "back on the front foot" - describing his leadership as the "beginning of a new chapter in our party’s history"

    I reckon Forbes would have done it better.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,611

    Does anyone think Rishi will be going round to the Palace this week?

    Unlikely. I think Charles has had to cut down on the face to face time.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,737
    Scott_xP said:

    Pretty savage critique of Yousless

    @SkyNewsBreak

    SNP Leader John Swinney says the party is now "back on the front foot" - describing his leadership as the "beginning of a new chapter in our party’s history"

    If I heard his speech right the history of the SNP now has a non barking dog where the giant names of Salmond and Sturgeon once shone in bright lights. Salmond Who? Sturgeon Who?
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,824
    Taz said:

    Donkeys said:

    ydoethur said:

    Unless I've misunderstood, Netanyahu seems to be saying to Hamas:

    1. Unless you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah.
    2. If you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah anyway.

    Sounds like Netanyahu.

    However, I think it unlikely the Americans would agree to Rafah’s destruction if a ceasefire was signed.

    Another good reason for Hamas to agree for one.

    But they won’t because they’re (a) not actually fighting to win a ground war (b) don’t care any more than Netanyahu does about the ordinary people who are being killed and (c) are even madder than he is.
    On a): Gaza has been under siege since 2007. Hence the euphoria of the October breakout and prisoner capture. They're not fighting a sea battle either. See what they are fighting rather than what they're not. Their backs are to the wall. There have been other conflicts of that kind in world history.

    On b): so basically a group of powerful people separate from the large mass of people suffer from some kind of totally narcisstic martyrdom complex, making for an endgame worse than at Masada and Montsegur? They really don't give a toss for the large majority of Palestinians in Gaza? Put down the cartoon book and ask why a Palestinian picks up a weapon. What would you do? Most people who join the IRM are not at senior level or anywhere near it. Plus of course the IRM are not the only armed resistance organisation in Gaza. They're not even the only armed RO that took part in the October breakout. None of the organisations would have any support base whatsoever if they didn't give financial help to widows and orphans and to families of the jailed as well as the bereaved.

    c) - Netanyahu's not mad.

    How would the USA stop the Israelis from destroying Rafah? Threaten to force AIPAC to register under FARA? Will Congress vote for that?

    The USA will probably provide the scanners to screen the DPs before they let them on the evacuation ships.

    The USA is the country that keeps vetoing UNSC resolutions that are critical of Israel. They 'll do fuck all to hinder their rabid friends. If they make noises it's to do with Gulf money, but at the end of the day Gulf money doesn't count for fuck.
    The US can’t, or won’t, stop it. It’s going to happen. Because the west is comfortable with it happening
    As it should be.

    It should have happened months ago.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,241

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Olly said:

    Latest gem from Matt Goodwin.

    In some areas of Britain we are now witnessing the rise of a darker, tribal, more sectarian politics which, ironically, is emerging under the banner of the so-called ‘liberal progressive’ Greens"

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1787422914385428734

    Darker, tribal more sectarian politics?

    Goodwin has real Chutzpah.
    Incompetent writing, because it is hopelessly ambiguous, too. Unless 'Britain' means 'England'.

    Edit: and in any case he's about half a century out of date (at least) for Glasgow.
    Speaking of which, amazing scenes at Ibrox yesterday.
    (open the tweet below for the bigger picture)



    https://x.com/silviotattiscon/status/1787101006846673392?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q


    I though rugby's quite popular in Scotland ?

    *checks link*

    Very good.


  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,967
    kjh said:

    MattW said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Are tiny cafes, which usually have only one loo, now required to have two before they can open?

    The change to building regulations will also allow contained, universal toilets in addition to single-sex toilets where space allows, or instead of single-sex toilets where there is not enough space.

    A universal toilet is defined by the government as a self-contained room with a toilet and sink for individual use.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2xly8vxreo

    Not that much Parliamentary time left though, even if the election is December.
    Single-sex toilets or single-gender toilets?
    Unless there are bouncers upskirting customers it will surely be the latter.

    The more they bang on about Woke and Trans the more votes the Tories lose.
    At last, a job for which Lozza is eminently qualified.


    He is quite unhinged.

    What turned a fairly successful actor, married to a lovely wife, into a loon?
    Feels awfully simplistic to say that the divorce sent him over the edge, but simplistic doesn't mean wrong.

    And once you start in the vortex of "will spout rubbish for clicks, likes or cash", it's awfully hard to get out. Even if it starts as a persona, it becomes the reality.

    (Aren't there stories from WW2 of Colditz prisoners feigning madness to try to escape and that sending them properly mad?)
    Last point - yes.

    There was also Douglas Bader preventing his orderly, who was an NCO or more junior working in an officers' camp, being repatriated as he had become entitled to be.

    'He's my lackey, and he's staying my lackey.'
    Bader appears to have been quite an unpleasant fellow. There are quite a few stories from Colditz. Also his political views were very simple and although proudly British one might view that he was fighting for the wrong side. I used to read his column in the Sunday Express when I was a youngster and it wasn't pleasant. And finally one of my closest friends' father was a fighter pilot in WW2 and slightly knew him and took an instant dislike to him saying he was incredibly arrogant.

    Still if you are going to win a war you probably need people like that.

    PS He also acknowledged that the film wasn't representative of him
    Except that in the war he was arguing the wrong side of effective tactics / strategy in the Battle of Britain.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,067

    EPG said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    The swastika is used to evoke the Nazi Party, with a small set of purposes, primarily to intimidate individuals or to undermine public order in the eyes of a reasonable person. There is no widespread use of swastikas in the UK for other purposes.
    That's why I said previously. Previously there were other, multicultural, uses for the swastika as a traditional Persian design used by Hindus, Buddhists and Jains. Nowadays its not used, due to its darker connotations.

    Similarly with Allahu Akbar. It may have once been an innocent phrase, but today it is a rallying cry for terrorists and extremists.
    Swastika ubiquitous in Taiwan to denote Buddhist, therefore vegan, restaurant.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,852
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Morning all. On reading through the last thread, some thoughts on Thrashergate. I think it was Wulfrun Phil who posted some polling evidence from 2023 locals of GE VI being wider than LE VI. Whilst that is indeed a piece of supporting evidence, some caution needs applying in that the LE question was about an election about to happen (minds made up) and the GE is, as with all opinion polling between terms, about a date far off not yet defined and, as such, it becomes to some extent a measure of dissatisfaction and with more DKs than likely once minds focussed. Differential weighting would also apply given turnout expectations in both type of election which complicates a dual question poll. So, whilst it does suggest support that at a GE the gap might be wider, putting a figure on it you can rely on is too tricky (and admittedly might be more than 7 or 8% as those polls showed as well as less). Reliance on opinion polling cost May dearly - she continued to focus on places she was getting nowhere near whereas Labour were far more canny and reactive to the ground shifting. The 5 million votes just cast give us a good generic overview of where we stand - somewhat worse for the blues than the Thrasher NEV (which is just a projection of votes cast, not a forecast of votes to come) and somewhat better than the current opinion polling average, the art for the party strategists will be defining just where the line is right now. I'd say about a 10 to 12 point lead for Labour if we voted tomorrow.
    Tactical voting - complicated this time due to boundary changes and imo likely to favour Labour not the LDs as the spectacular opinion poll leads and the seat forecast polls are making Labour look competitive everywhere. Thus we might end up with some (not by any means loads though) seats looking like 1983 - with a big third place vote because the 'tactical' shot was the wrong one

    Beneath Thrasher there is the valid bigger picture point that there is little enthusiasm for Labour, and the locals show that people are willing to shop elsewhere when alternatives are available and credible.

    But it’s a shame that his analysis seems to have compounded a number of errors. Firstly, assuming no change in Scotland and Wales, when in the former at least all the evidence points to significant change. Secondly, by what they’ve done with the ‘others’ - seven other gains doesn’t seem credibly the result of any UNS model unless it’s a simplistic one that treats voters for the disparate range of other parties as one bloc backing a single candidate, which is obvious nonsense. Otherwise where are these seven other gains in England? Thirdly, by dropping local voters into a national model without any adjustment, when we all know people vote differently in local elections and the LDs in particular pick up local votes thay they never get in a GE.

    And the gross error is that, while the national government and national Tory politicians are widely despised, not all voters punish their local councils and councillors accordingly, especially where they’re doing a reasonable job.

    The only counter-argument is that Reform didn’t put up many LE candidates but presumably in the Genny Lec will stand everywhere? Thus potentially syphoning off more unhappy Tories. But that could be balanced off by some who are telling pollsters they are Reform voters as a protest but won’t actually carry through.
    That's all fair comment and the NEV has been grossly abused no doubt.
    If Reform are being overstated in polling as seems likely then we are not a million miles away from a low 40s high 20s scenario perhaps. Something in the 10 to 14 point lead range - enough for a pretty comprehensive win through to Blair styley. I still fancy about a 90 seat majority.
    One other factor - Galloway standing everywhere (he says, he's already got 150 in place though). As we saw with Yakoob in West Midlands, he picked up 60,000 votes and only announced five weeks ago standing on a gaza ticket. They need to start prompting WPB in polling, if he's at 1% or no show then forget it, but if they start hitting 3% then he becomes a complicating factor. Where they stood Thursday they generally did pretty well. Blackburn, Rochdale, Halifax, Oldham, Birmingham etc could be interesting.
    London gives a perfect dry run of how Conservatives v Reform would likely pan out in the general election. Reform contested every available seat, against the Conservatives, and they did not make much of an inroad into their vote.

    They may have prevented the Conservatives from flipping Ealing/Hillingdon, but that was about it.

    The Conservatives will pick up some of the vote that went to independents, in general election conditions, probably enough to get above 30%+, but I agree that Labour are more than 7% ahead, when it comes to the GE/
    By way of comparison, take a look at these:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_United_Kingdom_local_elections

    Labour lost nearly two third of their seats, and won just 7% of the total. If one read straight across from these elections, to the General, they would be heading for one of the worst defeats in the post war period. But, in the end, they performed quite respectably in the general election.
    I suspect Labour's vote will be very efficient - depressed where it doesn't matter (Gaza effect) with big swings/tactical voting where
    it needs it in the marginals.

    I expect Reform to try their best to put up a candidate everywhere but they won't be able to campaign everywhere and their airtime will be heavily crowded out.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,241
    The development of EV manufacturing will make an interesting study in a few years' time.

    Sadly, we're peripheral to the action.

    As Chinese EVs face obstacles entering US and EU markets through the front door, I’m closely watching their efforts to enter through side doors.

    Geely is the most interesting case, using its ownership of Volvo and Polestar to sell Chinese-made EVs to US and EU markets. Polestar is headquartered in Sweden but manufactures its EVs in China, which are then exported to US and EU markets. Volvo’s EVs are made in a network of plants across the US, EU, and China.

    Now Volvo is gearing up to launch its mass-market $35,000 EX30 (in image) to compete with Tesla’s Model Y in the US. The EX30 will be made in China but will take advantage of a “duty drawback” program where import tariffs are refunded because Volvo also exports cars from the US. In other words, Geely, a Chinese automaker, is able to use existing US-based production through Volvo’s South Carolina plant to enable Chinese-made EVs to be sold to the US market.

    This is not a bad thing for the US. Volvo has been expanding its South Carolina plant to produce its luxury EX90 electric SUVs. I can imagine Volvo might eventually shift future EX30 production from China to its South Carolina plant if the economics work out better--or under pressure from the US...

    https://twitter.com/kyleichan/status/1787493660407292260
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,452

    Taz said:

    Don’t abandon us, Muslim voters, part XXI 😂

    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1787475160129306767?s=61

    The comments suggest more than a few aren't convinced by this new found earnestness
    Their cynicism does them credit.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,567
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Don’t abandon us, Muslim voters, part XXI 😂

    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1787475160129306767?s=61

    The comments suggest more than a few aren't convinced by this new found earnestness
    Their cynicism does them credit.
    I await their reaction when Keir claims Labour led the charge against war
  • Options
    OllyOlly Posts: 42

    Taz said:

    Donkeys said:

    ydoethur said:

    Unless I've misunderstood, Netanyahu seems to be saying to Hamas:

    1. Unless you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah.
    2. If you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah anyway.

    Sounds like Netanyahu.

    However, I think it unlikely the Americans would agree to Rafah’s destruction if a ceasefire was signed.

    Another good reason for Hamas to agree for one.

    But they won’t because they’re (a) not actually fighting to win a ground war (b) don’t care any more than Netanyahu does about the ordinary people who are being killed and (c) are even madder than he is.
    On a): Gaza has been under siege since 2007. Hence the euphoria of the October breakout and prisoner capture. They're not fighting a sea battle either. See what they are fighting rather than what they're not. Their backs are to the wall. There have been other conflicts of that kind in world history.

    On b): so basically a group of powerful people separate from the large mass of people suffer from some kind of totally narcisstic martyrdom complex, making for an endgame worse than at Masada and Montsegur? They really don't give a toss for the large majority of Palestinians in Gaza? Put down the cartoon book and ask why a Palestinian picks up a weapon. What would you do? Most people who join the IRM are not at senior level or anywhere near it. Plus of course the IRM are not the only armed resistance organisation in Gaza. They're not even the only armed RO that took part in the October breakout. None of the organisations would have any support base whatsoever if they didn't give financial help to widows and orphans and to families of the jailed as well as the bereaved.

    c) - Netanyahu's not mad.

    How would the USA stop the Israelis from destroying Rafah? Threaten to force AIPAC to register under FARA? Will Congress vote for that?

    The USA will probably provide the scanners to screen the DPs before they let them on the evacuation ships.

    The USA is the country that keeps vetoing UNSC resolutions that are critical of Israel. They 'll do fuck all to hinder their rabid friends. If they make noises it's to do with Gulf money, but at the end of the day Gulf money doesn't count for fuck.
    The US can’t, or won’t, stop it. It’s going to happen. Because the west is comfortable with it happening
    As it should be.

    It should have happened months ago.
    Do you have any compassion in your heart or is it just war, war, war with you.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,611
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Olly said:

    Latest gem from Matt Goodwin.

    In some areas of Britain we are now witnessing the rise of a darker, tribal, more sectarian politics which, ironically, is emerging under the banner of the so-called ‘liberal progressive’ Greens"

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1787422914385428734

    Darker, tribal more sectarian politics?

    Goodwin has real Chutzpah.
    Incompetent writing, because it is hopelessly ambiguous, too. Unless 'Britain' means 'England'.

    Edit: and in any case he's about half a century out of date (at least) for Glasgow.
    Speaking of which, amazing scenes at Ibrox yesterday.
    (open the tweet below for the bigger picture)



    https://x.com/silviotattiscon/status/1787101006846673392?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q


    I though rugby's quite popular in Scotland ?

    *checks link*

    Very good.


    It's a brilliant piece of cropping.

    Is the Twitter account in League with the SNP?
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,824
    Olly said:

    Taz said:

    Donkeys said:

    ydoethur said:

    Unless I've misunderstood, Netanyahu seems to be saying to Hamas:

    1. Unless you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah.
    2. If you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah anyway.

    Sounds like Netanyahu.

    However, I think it unlikely the Americans would agree to Rafah’s destruction if a ceasefire was signed.

    Another good reason for Hamas to agree for one.

    But they won’t because they’re (a) not actually fighting to win a ground war (b) don’t care any more than Netanyahu does about the ordinary people who are being killed and (c) are even madder than he is.
    On a): Gaza has been under siege since 2007. Hence the euphoria of the October breakout and prisoner capture. They're not fighting a sea battle either. See what they are fighting rather than what they're not. Their backs are to the wall. There have been other conflicts of that kind in world history.

    On b): so basically a group of powerful people separate from the large mass of people suffer from some kind of totally narcisstic martyrdom complex, making for an endgame worse than at Masada and Montsegur? They really don't give a toss for the large majority of Palestinians in Gaza? Put down the cartoon book and ask why a Palestinian picks up a weapon. What would you do? Most people who join the IRM are not at senior level or anywhere near it. Plus of course the IRM are not the only armed resistance organisation in Gaza. They're not even the only armed RO that took part in the October breakout. None of the organisations would have any support base whatsoever if they didn't give financial help to widows and orphans and to families of the jailed as well as the bereaved.

    c) - Netanyahu's not mad.

    How would the USA stop the Israelis from destroying Rafah? Threaten to force AIPAC to register under FARA? Will Congress vote for that?

    The USA will probably provide the scanners to screen the DPs before they let them on the evacuation ships.

    The USA is the country that keeps vetoing UNSC resolutions that are critical of Israel. They 'll do fuck all to hinder their rabid friends. If they make noises it's to do with Gulf money, but at the end of the day Gulf money doesn't count for fuck.
    The US can’t, or won’t, stop it. It’s going to happen. Because the west is comfortable with it happening
    As it should be.

    It should have happened months ago.
    Do you have any compassion in your heart or is it just war, war, war with you.
    Of course I have compassion.

    I have compassion for the innocent Ukrainians and Israelis who were brutally attacked by invading Russians and Hamas.

    I want them to win their wars unequivocally so they are never so attacked again.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,137
    ydoethur said:

    To quote Alexandre Dumas, 'they'll find extenuating circumstances.'

    Clearly lots of these lawyers should be facing not merely being struck off but criminal charges. But I'm betting it won't. Too many awkward questions for others who don't want that can of worms opened.

    Turns out lawyers, even incompetent ones, are very good at ensuring lawyers don't face many consequences.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,967
    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    Police & Crime Commissioner Results summary, which I have not seen before:


    If you plug the gaps with the Mayoralities then Labour outnumber the Conservatives
    For Derbyshire PCC, Reform could have cost the Conservatives:

  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,426
    edited May 6
    isam said:

    Slight u-turn from “Israel has that right” to cut off food & electricity, but who cares?

    With more than a million Palestinian civilians sheltering in Rafah, an Israeli offensive must not go ahead.

    There must be an immediate ceasefire, the immediate release of all hostages, and unimpeded aid into Gaza that can be delivered regularly, quickly and safely.


    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1787475160129306767?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Wait a minute, I thought pols in general and Starmer in particular calling for this and that in Gaza would be empty posturing that wouldn't make any difference*

    *Except with UK Muslim voters obvs.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,064

    Olly said:

    Taz said:

    Donkeys said:

    ydoethur said:

    Unless I've misunderstood, Netanyahu seems to be saying to Hamas:

    1. Unless you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah.
    2. If you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah anyway.

    Sounds like Netanyahu.

    However, I think it unlikely the Americans would agree to Rafah’s destruction if a ceasefire was signed.

    Another good reason for Hamas to agree for one.

    But they won’t because they’re (a) not actually fighting to win a ground war (b) don’t care any more than Netanyahu does about the ordinary people who are being killed and (c) are even madder than he is.
    On a): Gaza has been under siege since 2007. Hence the euphoria of the October breakout and prisoner capture. They're not fighting a sea battle either. See what they are fighting rather than what they're not. Their backs are to the wall. There have been other conflicts of that kind in world history.

    On b): so basically a group of powerful people separate from the large mass of people suffer from some kind of totally narcisstic martyrdom complex, making for an endgame worse than at Masada and Montsegur? They really don't give a toss for the large majority of Palestinians in Gaza? Put down the cartoon book and ask why a Palestinian picks up a weapon. What would you do? Most people who join the IRM are not at senior level or anywhere near it. Plus of course the IRM are not the only armed resistance organisation in Gaza. They're not even the only armed RO that took part in the October breakout. None of the organisations would have any support base whatsoever if they didn't give financial help to widows and orphans and to families of the jailed as well as the bereaved.

    c) - Netanyahu's not mad.

    How would the USA stop the Israelis from destroying Rafah? Threaten to force AIPAC to register under FARA? Will Congress vote for that?

    The USA will probably provide the scanners to screen the DPs before they let them on the evacuation ships.

    The USA is the country that keeps vetoing UNSC resolutions that are critical of Israel. They 'll do fuck all to hinder their rabid friends. If they make noises it's to do with Gulf money, but at the end of the day Gulf money doesn't count for fuck.
    The US can’t, or won’t, stop it. It’s going to happen. Because the west is comfortable with it happening
    As it should be.

    It should have happened months ago.
    Do you have any compassion in your heart or is it just war, war, war with you.
    Of course I have compassion.

    I have compassion for the innocent Ukrainians and Israelis who were brutally attacked by invading Russians and Hamas.

    I want them to win their wars unequivocally so they are never so attacked again.
    Do you believe military victory is the only way to achieve lasting peace?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,822
    Olly said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Are tiny cafes, which usually have only one loo, now required to have two before they can open?

    The change to building regulations will also allow contained, universal toilets in addition to single-sex toilets where space allows, or instead of single-sex toilets where there is not enough space.

    A universal toilet is defined by the government as a self-contained room with a toilet and sink for individual use.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2xly8vxreo

    Not that much Parliamentary time left though, even if the election is December.
    Single-sex toilets or single-gender toilets?
    Unless there are bouncers upskirting customers it will surely be the latter.

    The more they bang on about Woke and Trans the more votes the Tories lose.
    At last, a job for which Lozza is eminently qualified.


    He is quite unhinged.

    What turned a fairly successful actor, married to a lovely wife, into a loon?
    I liked him in Lewis. It’s sad to see what’s happened
    It’s quite tragic, and it’s happened to lots of people on all sides of politics. I think it comes from taking a fairly controversial position, and then being simultaneously persecuted for it and being liked by others. So you get addicted to the “likes” and also angered by the persecution. And so yet got more extreme (because angry) and more obsessive (because of the addictive dopamine hit of the likes)

    It’s possibly happening to someone as intelligent and sensible as J K Rowling. I agree with her completely on trans issues but when Elon musk (!!) tells you that you’re getting a bit monomaniacal and relentless then you probably are

    It’s happened to people on the left (corbynites). It’s arguably happened (albeit in a different way) to the most insane Remoaners. It’s yet another negative product of social media and Laurence fox is a sad example
    To be fair i would say many of your positions are more extreme than Laurence Foxes.
    Only on upskirting
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,064
    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    Police & Crime Commissioner Results summary, which I have not seen before:


    If you plug the gaps with the Mayoralities then Labour outnumber the Conservatives
    For Derbyshire PCC, Reform could have cost the Conservatives:

    I think the LD vote would have provided more Labour second preferences than Conservative ones, so the overall result would still have been a Labour win.
  • Options
    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,561
    On topic: I appreciate what Cyclefree has done on this scandal.

    I would like to add a general point that may help in preventing similar scandals: This is from Martin Mayer's "Today and Tomorrow in America", published in 1975:
    "The great advantage of decision-making in an economic market is that markets automatically, routinely, force the recognition of error. Presumably, computers will someday make it possible for a bureaucratic society to recognize and correct mistakes, but this presumption is likely to remain just that, because bureaucracies are fundmentally motivated by fear of the discovery of error." (p. 36)*

    Those who pay even a little attention to the news will be able to think of examples of that last point in bureaucracies as different as the Catholic Church and the old KGB. Since bureaucracies of some sort are inescapable in the modern world, we need to think hard about ways to tame them, so they are less likely to cover up errors. For example, in the US government, it is sometimes possible for "whistleblowers" to get quite substantial monetary rewards.

    In the US, we are going to need such checks on bureaucratic cover-ups even more, because of a general decline in the character of the people here. To be blunt, Americans are more likely to lie and steal than we were 60 years ago, so we should expect even more cover-ups from our bureacracies.

    (*It will reassure some of you to learn that Mayer immediately follows that by a discussion of the ways markets can fail, for example, short time horizons. And it should worry some of you to learn that financial markets are worse at correcting errors than most other markets,)
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,156
    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    Police & Crime Commissioner Results summary, which I have not seen before:


    If you plug the gaps with the Mayoralities then Labour outnumber the Conservatives
    For Derbyshire PCC, Reform could have cost the Conservatives:

    Under the old system.......
    Remind me again, whose idea was it to change?
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,824

    Olly said:

    Taz said:

    Donkeys said:

    ydoethur said:

    Unless I've misunderstood, Netanyahu seems to be saying to Hamas:

    1. Unless you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah.
    2. If you agree to our terms for a ceasefire, we're going to destroy Rafah anyway.

    Sounds like Netanyahu.

    However, I think it unlikely the Americans would agree to Rafah’s destruction if a ceasefire was signed.

    Another good reason for Hamas to agree for one.

    But they won’t because they’re (a) not actually fighting to win a ground war (b) don’t care any more than Netanyahu does about the ordinary people who are being killed and (c) are even madder than he is.
    On a): Gaza has been under siege since 2007. Hence the euphoria of the October breakout and prisoner capture. They're not fighting a sea battle either. See what they are fighting rather than what they're not. Their backs are to the wall. There have been other conflicts of that kind in world history.

    On b): so basically a group of powerful people separate from the large mass of people suffer from some kind of totally narcisstic martyrdom complex, making for an endgame worse than at Masada and Montsegur? They really don't give a toss for the large majority of Palestinians in Gaza? Put down the cartoon book and ask why a Palestinian picks up a weapon. What would you do? Most people who join the IRM are not at senior level or anywhere near it. Plus of course the IRM are not the only armed resistance organisation in Gaza. They're not even the only armed RO that took part in the October breakout. None of the organisations would have any support base whatsoever if they didn't give financial help to widows and orphans and to families of the jailed as well as the bereaved.

    c) - Netanyahu's not mad.

    How would the USA stop the Israelis from destroying Rafah? Threaten to force AIPAC to register under FARA? Will Congress vote for that?

    The USA will probably provide the scanners to screen the DPs before they let them on the evacuation ships.

    The USA is the country that keeps vetoing UNSC resolutions that are critical of Israel. They 'll do fuck all to hinder their rabid friends. If they make noises it's to do with Gulf money, but at the end of the day Gulf money doesn't count for fuck.
    The US can’t, or won’t, stop it. It’s going to happen. Because the west is comfortable with it happening
    As it should be.

    It should have happened months ago.
    Do you have any compassion in your heart or is it just war, war, war with you.
    Of course I have compassion.

    I have compassion for the innocent Ukrainians and Israelis who were brutally attacked by invading Russians and Hamas.

    I want them to win their wars unequivocally so they are never so attacked again.
    Do you believe military victory is the only way to achieve lasting peace?
    No.

    I've said that after Israel has utterly destroyed Hamas there should be a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians to live securely and prosperously.

    Something that is utterly impossible if Hamas survives and there is a misguided ceasefire that sees Gaza returned to being an open air blockaded prison.

    First win the war, then secure the peace.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,137

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    Context is rather important.

    I think it was Pratchett who gave the example of a photo of someone smiling whilst holding a knife - perfectly acceptable if cutting a birthday cake, less so if standing over the body of the postman.

    I don't think a cry of God is great has yet been so polluted that even in contexts other than violent extremists it must automatically be unacceptable.
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,340

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    The extreme pride Russians are taking in destroying a human aid truck that was delivering clean water to old women is honestly both sickening and completely expected.
    https://twitter.com/AndrewPerpetua/status/1787089111397855614

    Remember, we 'poked' them into this. It isn't Russia's fault; it's ours. The Ukrainians are Nazis and don't exist as a country, and are being led by a dictator.

    So say some of the 'appeasers' on here...
    Who on here has said this?
    The poked comment, Nick Palmer, a couple of days before Russia's invasion. A staggeringly ill-judged comment, and one that implied Putin's invasion was *our* fault. Ukrainians are Nazi's - implied by various, including Nick and, naturally, our old friend @Dura_Ace. The Ukrainians are being led by a dictator - @Dura_Ace (*) . Ukraine doesn't exist as a country: again, implied by some of those posters.

    Good enough, or do you want me to find actual posts?

    (*) Unsurprisingly, this is currently a thread in pro-Russian propaganda.
    Yes please find the actual posts so we can judge if you are putting words into Nick Palmer's mouth that he didn't actually say.
    He did. It was a few days before the invasion, back in February 2022. You can believe me or not: but he said it.

    But Google doesn't appear to be behaving wrt searches for some odd reason. Perhaps my Googlefu is broken.

    (If you argue the context may matter; fair enough. But I'm LOLing at your insipid defence of him over this.)

    Edit: and ISTR that Nick also propagated the "We promised no eastwards NATO expansion" lie.
    And where are the quotes from Nick saying 'Putin's invasion is our fault' or 'Ukrainians are Nazis'? And context matters here. I think it's reasonable to argue that Western policy has been a failure, and to look at what would have made more sense, without starting a witch hunt by the Morality Police. For example, you could argue it was incoherent for the EU offer trade deals to take Ukraine out of the Russian economic sphere without the West first being prepared to guarantee Ukrainian security.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,611

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    Police & Crime Commissioner Results summary, which I have not seen before:


    If you plug the gaps with the Mayoralities then Labour outnumber the Conservatives
    For Derbyshire PCC, Reform could have cost the Conservatives:

    Under the old system.......
    Remind me again, whose idea was it to change?
    Almost all changes to the voting system have been designed to benefit the party in power.

    But the decision to scrap instant runoff voting in these elections was the most imposingly inept attempt to rig the voting system since Gladstone put through the 1884 Reform Act by handing control of redistricting to his political opponents.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,137

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    Police & Crime Commissioner Results summary, which I have not seen before:


    If you plug the gaps with the Mayoralities then Labour outnumber the Conservatives
    For Derbyshire PCC, Reform could have cost the Conservatives:

    Under the old system.......
    Remind me again, whose idea was it to change?
    Changing it saved several PCCs.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,137
    edited May 6
    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    The extreme pride Russians are taking in destroying a human aid truck that was delivering clean water to old women is honestly both sickening and completely expected.
    https://twitter.com/AndrewPerpetua/status/1787089111397855614

    Remember, we 'poked' them into this. It isn't Russia's fault; it's ours. The Ukrainians are Nazis and don't exist as a country, and are being led by a dictator.

    So say some of the 'appeasers' on here...
    Who on here has said this?
    The poked comment, Nick Palmer, a couple of days before Russia's invasion. A staggeringly ill-judged comment, and one that implied Putin's invasion was *our* fault. Ukrainians are Nazi's - implied by various, including Nick and, naturally, our old friend @Dura_Ace. The Ukrainians are being led by a dictator - @Dura_Ace (*) . Ukraine doesn't exist as a country: again, implied by some of those posters.

    Good enough, or do you want me to find actual posts?

    (*) Unsurprisingly, this is currently a thread in pro-Russian propaganda.
    Yes please find the actual posts so we can judge if you are putting words into Nick Palmer's mouth that he didn't actually say.
    He did. It was a few days before the invasion, back in February 2022. You can believe me or not: but he said it.

    But Google doesn't appear to be behaving wrt searches for some odd reason. Perhaps my Googlefu is broken.

    (If you argue the context may matter; fair enough. But I'm LOLing at your insipid defence of him over this.)

    Edit: and ISTR that Nick also propagated the "We promised no eastwards NATO expansion" lie.
    And where are the quotes from Nick saying 'Putin's invasion is our fault' or 'Ukrainians are Nazis'? And context matters here. I think it's reasonable to argue that Western policy has been a failure, and to look at what would have made more sense, without starting a witch hunt by the Morality Police. For example, you could argue it was incoherent for the EU offer trade deals to take Ukraine out of the Russian economic sphere without the West first being prepared to guarantee Ukrainian security.
    He did talk about provoking the Russians I believe. People can interpret that to different extents (and to some people reacting at all counts as provocatiob), and he's a good man so i put it down to carelessness, but it was both nonsense and unwittingly parroting a Putin pretext. It's possible to argue a more complex view of contributory factors without such morally loaded terms I'd say - you offer one such example.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,967
    edited May 6
    ydoethur said:

    EPG said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    The swastika is used to evoke the Nazi Party, with a small set of purposes, primarily to intimidate individuals or to undermine public order in the eyes of a reasonable person. There is no widespread use of swastikas in the UK for other purposes.
    Well, not now.

    It used to be the symbol of Nelson Publishing (for instance).

    I have a very beautiful leather bound set of Kipling's works - covered in swastikas.

    Plus a first edition of Buchan's Prester John ditto.

    There is of course a certain irony to this given the content of the books...
    There's a very interesting short video about the Swastika in other contexts (the word is from a Sanskrit meaning conducive of wellbeing), by Dr Mark Felton.

    They are all over Essex County Hall in Chelmsford, for example.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuB2L6SN6Lg

    I'm partially convinced that it is perhaps time to rehabilitate the non-Nazi version of the symbol.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,756
    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    Police & Crime Commissioner Results summary, which I have not seen before:


    If you plug the gaps with the Mayoralities then Labour outnumber the Conservatives
    For Derbyshire PCC, Reform could have cost the Conservatives:

    IF that is 85% or more of Reform voters had voted for the Tory (either in actual FPTP or theoretical STV).

    How realistic is that?
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,824
    kle4 said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    Context is rather important.

    I think it was Pratchett who gave the example of a photo of someone smiling whilst holding a knife - perfectly acceptable if cutting a birthday cake, less so if standing over the body of the postman.

    I don't think a cry of God is great has yet been so polluted that even in contexts other than violent extremists it must automatically be unacceptable.
    Yes context matter and context means that it I think it is so polluted that nobody should be shouting it at rallies/protests unless they're deliberately trying to make that violent connection.

    Just as using your analogy context means nobody should be shouting and waving a knife at a rally/protest either.

    Saying it in a religious context may be different, like the birthday cake analogy.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,876
    Asked if he would implement in full the Cass Review, ‘Honest John’ Swinney - First Minister in-waiting - could not bring himself to give an unequivocal YES. Stop playing politics with children’s lives FFS.

    https://x.com/dalgetysusan/status/1787494121029923033
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,030

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    Police & Crime Commissioner Results summary, which I have not seen before:


    If you plug the gaps with the Mayoralities then Labour outnumber the Conservatives
    For Derbyshire PCC, Reform could have cost the Conservatives:

    IF that is 85% or more of Reform voters had voted for the Tory (either in actual FPTP or theoretical STV).

    How realistic is that?
    Not very, as we are repeatedly told on here.
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,567
    Joe has had a phone call with Bibi to try and dissuade him from action in Rafah. Going in tonight then........
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,283
    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    The extreme pride Russians are taking in destroying a human aid truck that was delivering clean water to old women is honestly both sickening and completely expected.
    https://twitter.com/AndrewPerpetua/status/1787089111397855614

    Remember, we 'poked' them into this. It isn't Russia's fault; it's ours. The Ukrainians are Nazis and don't exist as a country, and are being led by a dictator.

    So say some of the 'appeasers' on here...
    Who on here has said this?
    The poked comment, Nick Palmer, a couple of days before Russia's invasion. A staggeringly ill-judged comment, and one that implied Putin's invasion was *our* fault. Ukrainians are Nazi's - implied by various, including Nick and, naturally, our old friend @Dura_Ace. The Ukrainians are being led by a dictator - @Dura_Ace (*) . Ukraine doesn't exist as a country: again, implied by some of those posters.

    Good enough, or do you want me to find actual posts?

    (*) Unsurprisingly, this is currently a thread in pro-Russian propaganda.
    Yes please find the actual posts so we can judge if you are putting words into Nick Palmer's mouth that he didn't actually say.
    He did. It was a few days before the invasion, back in February 2022. You can believe me or not: but he said it.

    But Google doesn't appear to be behaving wrt searches for some odd reason. Perhaps my Googlefu is broken.

    (If you argue the context may matter; fair enough. But I'm LOLing at your insipid defence of him over this.)

    Edit: and ISTR that Nick also propagated the "We promised no eastwards NATO expansion" lie.
    And where are the quotes from Nick saying 'Putin's invasion is our fault' or 'Ukrainians are Nazis'? And context matters here. I think it's reasonable to argue that Western policy has been a failure, and to look at what would have made more sense, without starting a witch hunt by the Morality Police. For example, you could argue it was incoherent for the EU offer trade deals to take Ukraine out of the Russian economic sphere without the West first being prepared to guarantee Ukrainian security.
    When he said that we should not poke Russia into invading Ukraine. Or when he said we told Russia we would not expand NATO eastwards (we did not); etc etc. I'm not going to go searching through loads of posts on a Bank Holiday Monday; feel free to. It was a few days before the invasion in Feb 22. Knock yourself out; have fun.

    And you're falling into the same trap. Russia is a big beast (hint: it isn't), and for some insane reason it deserves the right to control all its neighbouring states because of that. WTF should any country - Ukraine, the Baltic states, Romania etc, etc, not join a progressive alliance of countries if that alliance makes them a good offer? When you say the above about Ukraine, do you also apply it to (say) Estonia?

    Putin has invaded Ukraine because he has warped views on Russia's history; it's power, democracy and self-determination, and because he is butt-sore that Russia's a diminished power on the world stage after 1989.

    It was not our fault. Putin has a vision of Russia in the future, and will use *anything* we do as an excuse to fulfil that vision; however many people have to die or enslaved in the process. And naive idiots, or malign entities, will blame us for Putin's evil.
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    OllyOlly Posts: 42
    Leon said:

    Olly said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Are tiny cafes, which usually have only one loo, now required to have two before they can open?

    The change to building regulations will also allow contained, universal toilets in addition to single-sex toilets where space allows, or instead of single-sex toilets where there is not enough space.

    A universal toilet is defined by the government as a self-contained room with a toilet and sink for individual use.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2xly8vxreo

    Not that much Parliamentary time left though, even if the election is December.
    Single-sex toilets or single-gender toilets?
    Unless there are bouncers upskirting customers it will surely be the latter.

    The more they bang on about Woke and Trans the more votes the Tories lose.
    At last, a job for which Lozza is eminently qualified.


    He is quite unhinged.

    What turned a fairly successful actor, married to a lovely wife, into a loon?
    I liked him in Lewis. It’s sad to see what’s happened
    It’s quite tragic, and it’s happened to lots of people on all sides of politics. I think it comes from taking a fairly controversial position, and then being simultaneously persecuted for it and being liked by others. So you get addicted to the “likes” and also angered by the persecution. And so yet got more extreme (because angry) and more obsessive (because of the addictive dopamine hit of the likes)

    It’s possibly happening to someone as intelligent and sensible as J K Rowling. I agree with her completely on trans issues but when Elon musk (!!) tells you that you’re getting a bit monomaniacal and relentless then you probably are

    It’s happened to people on the left (corbynites). It’s arguably happened (albeit in a different way) to the most insane Remoaners. It’s yet another negative product of social media and Laurence fox is a sad example
    To be fair i would say many of your positions are more extreme than Laurence Foxes.
    Only on upskirting
    Do you agree with this statement made today by Fox.


    Imagine what we could achieve if Britain stood up for itself with the same confidence as Islam does?

    I have huge respect for how seriously and unabashedly Muslim political campaigners put forward their demands.

    We either learn from them, and soon, or Britain is finished.

    https://x.com/LozzaFox/status/1787500420400546061
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    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,561
    edited May 6
    Off topic: What is the name of that cartoonist, who appears here from time to time, the most recent being one showing your PM on a plank, and titled "Result". And where do they work?

    And, while I am on the subject, am I correct in thinking that Steve Bell no longer works for the Guardian?

    (My favorite living cartoonist is Michael Ramirez. You can see his work at "gocomics", for example: https://www.gocomics.com/michaelramirez/2024/05/04 )
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    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,824

    Joe has had a phone call with Bibi to try and dissuade him from action in Rafah. Going in tonight then........

    Bibi has been pissweak on Hamas for years and is being pissweak taking the fight to Rafah now. Should have been done months ago.

    He is Israel's Chamberlain. They need to replace him and find their Churchill who can win the war.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,756
    Re: the woeful (and likely criminal?) failure of PO to properly disclose evidence, you UKers are NOT alone . . .

    Seattle Times - WA State Patrol fined $750,000 for failing to disclose public records after crash

    The Washington State Patrol has been fined $750,000 for public-disclosure failures surrounding a couple’s efforts to find out why troopers dismissed a citation given to a driver believed responsible for a crash that killed their son.

    [Judge] Chushcoff, in an order issued April 12, found the State Patrol “failed to conduct reasonable searches for records responsive” to more than 40 public disclosure requests filed by Bart and Penny Adler of Olympia and their attorneys for information into the investigation of a Sept. 2, 2020, collision on Highway 512 that killed their 23-year-old son, Isaac.

    In all, the court found the State Patrol failed to “properly produce” more than 647 records — and concealed another 1,700 emails and other documents the judge found were responsive to the Adlers’ repeated requests.

    The Adlers’ public records lawsuit turned up evidence that investigating troopers failed to prepare a “Fatality Packet” — including all reports, diagrams and photographs detailing the crash — for nearly nine months after it occurred, and that during that time, dash-camera video and other records were destroyed, according to court documents. . . .

    Issac Adler was stopped at a red light on Highway 512 near Interstate 5 when his Subaru was struck from behind by a speeding vehicle . . . .

    Bart Adler said the State Patrol treated his son’s death “as a matter of no consequence.

    “They treated our son like roadkill,” he said. . . .
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,611

    Re: the woeful (and likely criminal?) failure of PO to properly disclose evidence, you UKers are NOT alone . . .

    Seattle Times - WA State Patrol fined $750,000 for failing to disclose public records after crash

    The Washington State Patrol has been fined $750,000 for public-disclosure failures surrounding a couple’s efforts to find out why troopers dismissed a citation given to a driver believed responsible for a crash that killed their son.

    [Judge] Chushcoff, in an order issued April 12, found the State Patrol “failed to conduct reasonable searches for records responsive” to more than 40 public disclosure requests filed by Bart and Penny Adler of Olympia and their attorneys for information into the investigation of a Sept. 2, 2020, collision on Highway 512 that killed their 23-year-old son, Isaac.

    In all, the court found the State Patrol failed to “properly produce” more than 647 records — and concealed another 1,700 emails and other documents the judge found were responsive to the Adlers’ repeated requests.

    The Adlers’ public records lawsuit turned up evidence that investigating troopers failed to prepare a “Fatality Packet” — including all reports, diagrams and photographs detailing the crash — for nearly nine months after it occurred, and that during that time, dash-camera video and other records were destroyed, according to court documents. . . .

    Issac Adler was stopped at a red light on Highway 512 near Interstate 5 when his Subaru was struck from behind by a speeding vehicle . . . .

    Bart Adler said the State Patrol treated his son’s death “as a matter of no consequence.

    “They treated our son like roadkill,” he said. . . .

    So basically, powerful people the world over are cheating, lying, cowardly c****?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,601

    EPG said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    The swastika is used to evoke the Nazi Party, with a small set of purposes, primarily to intimidate individuals or to undermine public order in the eyes of a reasonable person. There is no widespread use of swastikas in the UK for other purposes.
    That's why I said previously. Previously there were other, multicultural, uses for the swastika as a traditional Persian design used by Hindus, Buddhists and Jains. Nowadays its not used, due to its darker connotations.

    Similarly with Allahu Akbar. It may have once been an innocent phrase, but today it is a rallying cry for terrorists and extremists.
    The “other way” swastika is used quite a bit in India and Nepal.

    I used to have a house in my ward whose front door was decorated in them. A bit of a double take the first time I knocked on their door. They were Hindus, and really nice people.
  • Options
    SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 6,382

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    Police & Crime Commissioner Results summary, which I have not seen before:


    If you plug the gaps with the Mayoralities then Labour outnumber the Conservatives
    For Derbyshire PCC, Reform could have cost the Conservatives:

    IF that is 85% or more of Reform voters had voted for the Tory (either in actual FPTP or theoretical STV).

    How realistic is that?
    I agree. If it had been an alternative vote election as these used to be, Labour would have had ample transfers from the Lib Dems to get well over the line. If it had been FPTP but RefUK just hadn't stood, 85% of them turning up and uniformally voting Tory is wholly unrealistic.

    RefUK will cost the Tories at the margins, but this isn't realistically an example. In cases where the difference between the Tory vote and the winner's vote is around half or less of the RefUK vote, that's where it's plausible that they made the difference.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,756
    ydoethur said:

    Re: the woeful (and likely criminal?) failure of PO to properly disclose evidence, you UKers are NOT alone . . .

    Seattle Times - WA State Patrol fined $750,000 for failing to disclose public records after crash

    The Washington State Patrol has been fined $750,000 for public-disclosure failures surrounding a couple’s efforts to find out why troopers dismissed a citation given to a driver believed responsible for a crash that killed their son.

    [Judge] Chushcoff, in an order issued April 12, found the State Patrol “failed to conduct reasonable searches for records responsive” to more than 40 public disclosure requests filed by Bart and Penny Adler of Olympia and their attorneys for information into the investigation of a Sept. 2, 2020, collision on Highway 512 that killed their 23-year-old son, Isaac.

    In all, the court found the State Patrol failed to “properly produce” more than 647 records — and concealed another 1,700 emails and other documents the judge found were responsive to the Adlers’ repeated requests.

    The Adlers’ public records lawsuit turned up evidence that investigating troopers failed to prepare a “Fatality Packet” — including all reports, diagrams and photographs detailing the crash — for nearly nine months after it occurred, and that during that time, dash-camera video and other records were destroyed, according to court documents. . . .

    Issac Adler was stopped at a red light on Highway 512 near Interstate 5 when his Subaru was struck from behind by a speeding vehicle . . . .

    Bart Adler said the State Patrol treated his son’s death “as a matter of no consequence.

    “They treated our son like roadkill,” he said. . . .

    So basically, powerful people the world over are cheating, lying, cowardly c****?
    "Powerful" not quite the right word, methinks. More like well-place, or rather ill-placed.

    The WSP fuckup detailed in article, appears to have been due to (habitual?) incompetence rather than corrupt machination as with (allegedly) the PO Scandal.

    Not that that makes it much (or any) better.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,601
    edited May 6

    Does anyone think Rishi will be going round to the Palace this week?

    Definitely not. He’ll wait till next Monday.
    Sunak needs to find out for when Farage has booked his holiday, pdq
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,156

    Re: the woeful (and likely criminal?) failure of PO to properly disclose evidence, you UKers are NOT alone . . .

    Seattle Times - WA State Patrol fined $750,000 for failing to disclose public records after crash

    The Washington State Patrol has been fined $750,000 for public-disclosure failures surrounding a couple’s efforts to find out why troopers dismissed a citation given to a driver believed responsible for a crash that killed their son.

    [Judge] Chushcoff, in an order issued April 12, found the State Patrol “failed to conduct reasonable searches for records responsive” to more than 40 public disclosure requests filed by Bart and Penny Adler of Olympia and their attorneys for information into the investigation of a Sept. 2, 2020, collision on Highway 512 that killed their 23-year-old son, Isaac.

    In all, the court found the State Patrol failed to “properly produce” more than 647 records — and concealed another 1,700 emails and other documents the judge found were responsive to the Adlers’ repeated requests.

    The Adlers’ public records lawsuit turned up evidence that investigating troopers failed to prepare a “Fatality Packet” — including all reports, diagrams and photographs detailing the crash — for nearly nine months after it occurred, and that during that time, dash-camera video and other records were destroyed, according to court documents. . . .

    Issac Adler was stopped at a red light on Highway 512 near Interstate 5 when his Subaru was struck from behind by a speeding vehicle . . . .

    Bart Adler said the State Patrol treated his son’s death “as a matter of no consequence.

    “They treated our son like roadkill,” he said. . . .

    The State Patrol have been held accountable though, 'fairly' quickly. This has been going on for around 20 years.
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    AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 817
    Curtice gives a measured response to the Rishi's straw-grasping over the NEV+UNS silliness:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68964302
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    It is a very commonly used phrase in Muslim communities and in Arab (including non-Muslim Arab) communities. It is a phrase said billions of times a day around the world. Over 99.9999% of the time it has nothing to do with terrorism and extremism.
    Somehow, I don’t think that the Green councillor (given his record), intended it innocently.
  • Options
    AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 817
    Sean_F said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    It is a very commonly used phrase in Muslim communities and in Arab (including non-Muslim Arab) communities. It is a phrase said billions of times a day around the world. Over 99.9999% of the time it has nothing to do with terrorism and extremism.
    Somehow, I don’t think that the Green councillor (given his record), intended it innocently.
    It was being used in celebration of his election victory, wasn't it? It's about as offensive as a christian saying something like "thank god" as an expression of relief.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,915
    IanB2 said:

    EPG said:

    Olly said:

    Have you seen the front page of the daily mail today. Really trying to stir things up.

    Disgusting from The Daily Mail.

    What's wrong with being pro-Gaza?
    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    The way this paper is creating & spreading fear, is appalling

    https://x.com/miqdaad/status/1787232991132987546

    What's wrong with shouting Allahu Akbar?

    About the same thing as is wrong with drawing a swastika.

    It is a rallying call for terrorists and extremists, even if it may have once previously had innocent meanings.
    The swastika is used to evoke the Nazi Party, with a small set of purposes, primarily to intimidate individuals or to undermine public order in the eyes of a reasonable person. There is no widespread use of swastikas in the UK for other purposes.
    That's why I said previously. Previously there were other, multicultural, uses for the swastika as a traditional Persian design used by Hindus, Buddhists and Jains. Nowadays its not used, due to its darker connotations.

    Similarly with Allahu Akbar. It may have once been an innocent phrase, but today it is a rallying cry for terrorists and extremists.
    The “other way” swastika is used quite a bit in India and Nepal.

    I used to have a house in my ward whose front door was decorated in them. A bit of a double take the first time I knocked on their door. They were Hindus, and really nice people.
    We had a couple move in next door, from India. They painted a swastika with dots on the doorstep in some red powder.

    My wife was a bit startled, until I explained what it meant.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    Police & Crime Commissioner Results summary, which I have not seen before:


    If you plug the gaps with the Mayoralities then Labour outnumber the Conservatives
    For Derbyshire PCC, Reform could have cost the Conservatives:

    IF that is 85% or more of Reform voters had voted for the Tory (either in actual FPTP or theoretical STV).

    How realistic is that?
    Perhaps 65%, but not 85%.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,303
    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Pretty savage critique of Yousless

    @SkyNewsBreak

    SNP Leader John Swinney says the party is now "back on the front foot" - describing his leadership as the "beginning of a new chapter in our party’s history"

    If I heard his speech right the history of the SNP now has a non barking dog where the giant names of Salmond and Sturgeon once shone in bright lights. Salmond Who? Sturgeon Who?
    @JournoStephen

    Some SNP trivia:

    Since 22 September 1990, when Gordon Wilson stood down, the SNP has been led by Alex Salmond, someone who was Alex Salmond’s deputy, or someone who was Alex Salmond’s assistant.
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