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Oh dear, Rishi looks like a limpet – politicalbetting.com

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  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355
    Foxy said:

    If you have nothing to hide, why try to game the answers? Indeed a high score only sets a higher bar for your behaviour IRL.

    Because I'm not stupid.

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,012
    Carnyx said:

    Not at all. Very necessary for everyone. In my experience it is very brief and takes far less time than the wokehunters devote to complaining about it.
    Though the concept suffers from the problem of infinite regress. What unconscious bias is affecting the person who uses the term 'wokehunter'? What unconscious bias makes some people tend towards liking and approving 'unconscious bias' training?

    And who gets to decide who shall have which unconscious bias trained out of them? The question: Who? Whom? matters greatly here.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355
    IanB2 said:


    One can only water the soil; if it is already salty, little or nothing will grow.
    You learn by talking to other people who think differently to you, and understanding their point of view - not through activist inspired re-education programmes that hector you to have the "right" opinions.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355
    eek said:


    And when I'm given a course to do I always have to wear the "were I an employee what answer are they expecting here". and once in a while it's actually interesting see reason why Nigel Farage couldn't be told why his account was closed example I gave earlier...
    Then, you're the same as me.

    Anyway, I must work now.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,366
    eek said:

    As I said you seem to be paranoid about it - and that's something I just don't get.

    Mind you I contract and i'm perfectly happy that I may be shown the door at any point if they decide they no longer need me...

    And when I'm given a course to do I always have to wear the "were I an employee what answer are they expecting here". and once in a while it's actually interesting see reason why Nigel Farage couldn't be told why his account was closed example I gave earlier...
    Ultimately, having to do stuff you otherwise wouldn't want to do is the lot of an employee. That's still true if you are a senior employee.

    Or as the Church of England oath of obedience puts it,

    I, A B, do swear by Almighty God that I will pay true and canonical obedience to the Lord Bishop of C and his successors in all things lawful and honest: So help me God...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    edited April 2024

    Because I'm not stupid.

    Clearly this may be different but when I did unconscious bias training some years ago the results of the tests were known only to me. And quite surprising they were to me too.

    The point about unconscious bias is it's not the individual's fault (it's largely the environment you were raised in) and there's not that much you can do about it except be aware of it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    algarkirk said:

    Though the concept suffers from the problem of infinite regress. What unconscious bias is affecting the person who uses the term 'wokehunter'? What unconscious bias makes some people tend towards liking and approving 'unconscious bias' training?

    And who gets to decide who shall have which unconscious bias trained out of them? The question: Who? Whom? matters greatly here.
    The simple answers are

    (a) the complainants keep calling X and Y woke, ergo they are indeed wokehunting *in their own perception*, and that is am objective statement. Think of my tortoise copulating with a slipper, or trying to. It is a pretty fair statement to say that he was feeling randy, even if the object is not always what that same observer might think very sensible.

    (b) again an objective criterion which breaks the regress: it's the employer who requires it, as a result of legislation by HM Goverment (which has been partly or wholly Conservative-run for 14 years or so).
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,279

    My firm has just launched mandatory unconscious bias training - the overview cites BLM and a commitment to "systemic change" and includes a training tool that will assess my bias in gender, race and social mobility.

    I must complete it by the end of June.

    My commiserations. Grin and bear it, while reflecting on the wedge you're being paid for just sitting there.

    In preparation I'd suggest a read of 'The End of the World is Flat' by Simon Edge.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Clearly this may be different but when I did unconscious bias training some years ago the results of the tests were known only to me. And quite surprising they were to me too.

    The point about unconscious bias is it's not the individual's fault (it's largely the environment you were raised in) and there's not that much you can do about it except be aware of it.
    Same here.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235

    My firm has just launched mandatory unconscious bias training - the overview cites BLM and a commitment to "systemic change" and includes a training tool that will assess my bias in gender, race and social mobility.

    I must complete it by the end of June.

    I thought you were Director level ! Moving to a smaller company is your best bet for ridding yourself of that sort of stuff I think.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302

    However, you are not the Prime Minister, looking at precedents on when to call an election, so can be safely ignored.
    We can all be safely ignored on here but that would rather defeat the object of the site.

    For what it's worth, I think @Heathener's right on this point.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,012
    Carnyx said:

    The simple answers are

    (a) the complainants keep calling X and Y woke, ergo they are indeed wokehunting *in their own perception*, and that is am objective statement. Think of my tortoise copulating with a slipper, or trying to. It is a pretty fair statement to say that he was feeling randy, even if the object is not always what that same observer might think very sensible.

    (b) again an objective criterion which breaks the regress: it's the employer who requires it, as a result of legislation by HM Goverment (which has been partly or wholly Conservative-run for 14 years or so).
    Thanks. I am not up to speed. Which legislation requires employers to require this?

    I am wary of anyone who suggests that they can evaluate their own unconscious bias, as here, but possibly others need a bit of help.
  • On topic, we now have the April projection from Electoral Forecast. Sunak fans, look away now.

    Party 2019 Votes 2019 Seats Pred Votes Low Seats Pred Seat High Seats

    CON 44.7% 376 23.6% 32 90 214
    LAB 33.0% 197 43.3% 340 459 536
    LIB 11.8% 8 10.2% 20 49 61
    Reform 2.1% 0 12.1% 0 0 22
    Green 2.8% 1 5.5% 0 2 4
    SNP 4.0% 48 3.5% 10 28 44
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,233
    malcolmg said:

    I do the same ones every year Carnyx, crap like this, fraud, etc , etc. Janet and John stuff. You would have to be a brain dead moron or in wrong job not to understand them, you are there to work, not be a racist, mysoginist, get freebies or bungs, fiddle your timesheets , etc.
    Those are things you should do in your own time if so inclined.
    “..be a racist, mysoginist, get freebies or bungs, fiddle your timesheets” - yes, definitely “Those are things you should do in your own time” :-)

    I’ve always founds the trainings comic. The fraud training that can be summed up as “In the multi choice test, do you pick Committing The Obvious Fraud?”… all the others are the same.

    No actual knowledge imparted.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    The difference is PMs trailing in the polls don't want to call an early general election they likely lose and cut their length in office in the history books
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302

    On topic, we now have the April projection from Electoral Forecast. Sunak fans, look away now.

    Party 2019 Votes 2019 Seats Pred Votes Low Seats Pred Seat High Seats

    CON 44.7% 376 23.6% 32 90 214
    LAB 33.0% 197 43.3% 340 459 536
    LIB 11.8% 8 10.2% 20 49 61
    Reform 2.1% 0 12.1% 0 0 22
    Green 2.8% 1 5.5% 0 2 4
    SNP 4.0% 48 3.5% 10 28 44

    Tories on 32 seats lol. That would be hilarious.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,366

    On topic, we now have the April projection from Electoral Forecast. Sunak fans, look away now.

    Party 2019 Votes 2019 Seats Pred Votes Low Seats Pred Seat High Seats

    CON 44.7% 376 23.6% 32 90 214
    LAB 33.0% 197 43.3% 340 459 536
    LIB 11.8% 8 10.2% 20 49 61
    Reform 2.1% 0 12.1% 0 0 22
    Green 2.8% 1 5.5% 0 2 4
    SNP 4.0% 48 3.5% 10 28 44

    Helluva cliff edge we're tapdancing near. If the final score is C214L340, Team Sunak have dodged a whole firing squad worth of bullets. C32L536 on the other hand...
  • Helluva cliff edge we're tapdancing near. If the final score is C214L340, Team Sunak have dodged a whole firing squad worth of bullets. C32L536 on the other hand...
    Agreed, Stuart.


    The simplified table....


    Party Pred Votes Pred Seats

    CON 23.6% 90
    LAB 43.3% 459
    LIB 10.2 49
    Refor 12.1% 0
    Green 5.5% 2
    SNP 3.5% 28
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    HYUFD said:

    The difference is PMs trailing in the polls don't want to call an early general election they likely lose and cut their length in office in the history books

    Some of that but also, 'something may come up Mr Micawber'.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    I’m sure the Tories will claw back quite a few seats as some voters are fearful of giving Labour a huge majority .
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    algarkirk said:

    Thanks. I am not up to speed. Which legislation requires employers to require this?

    I am wary of anyone who suggests that they can evaluate their own unconscious bias, as here, but possibly others need a bit of help.
    On legislation: no direct link to specific acts demanding employee training, on the whole, I believe, to compare with the sort of law that mandates a trained first aider for x employees (?). More a general response by the employer in view of the various criminal and civil laws, which, for instance, make it possible to sue a university on the grounds that your lecturer shagged you and marked you down; or indeed for that lecturer to sue for unfair dismissal as a result of being sacked. And generally the less hassle of that kind the better the environment.

    No-one can evaluate unconscious bias. There are various training programmes to check for it and give some suggestions. Found it useful myself. As a result, much more sympathetic to modern ways of doing interviews, and so on, which help ensure one isn't missing stuff.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Me too, but who's saying that?

    My experience is: I was pretty sure I didn't have unconscious bias before I did a course; after it I am sure that: a) I do have some, b) so does everyone else, c) it's not my (or their) fault, d) I can't really change it, but e) I can be aware of it and recognise how it might affect my decisions.
    JUst so. Me too.
  • Yes, I suspect it's actually to give the company a defence: "look, all our people have done the training" and, as you say, it creates a nice little business for those who create them.

    I will report back once I've done it.
    And all this 'elf'n'safety industry is due to the Tories (Major?) introducing the no-win-no-fee claims system.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,012

    Me too, but who's saying that?

    My experience is: I was pretty sure I didn't have unconscious bias before I did a course; after it I am sure that: a) I do have some, b) so does everyone else, c) it's not my (or their) fault, d) I can't really change it, but e) I can be aware of it and recognise how it might affect my decisions.
    Yes we all have unconscious bias, no, we have no idea what most of them are, but they probably cover almost everything. It gives a name to a universal fact of human nature.
  • Tories on 32 seats lol. That would be hilarious.
    It's not that improbable.

    EC doesn't take account of swingback and tactical voting. Both are likely, neither is certain.
    If you get swingback but little tactical voting then it ain't so bad for the Blue Team, but if you get tactical voting and no swingback, even 32 might be a bit on the high side.

    I stress that this is not probable, but it certainly ain't impossible.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,233

    And all this 'elf'n'safety industry is due to the Tories (Major?) introducing the no-win-no-fee claims system.
    No, it isn't.

    It's due to the idea that companies are liable for stuff. The problem is the implementation.

    Oh, and Health and Safety is vital - the lessons there are written in blood.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    algarkirk said:

    Yes we all have unconscious bias, no, we have no idea what most of them are, but they probably cover almost everything. It gives a name to a universal fact of human nature.
    Broadly true but we can get some insights into what our own unconscious biases are and that can be helpful.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103
    Carnyx said:

    JUst so. Me too.
    Everybody has some bias for certain, more likely to just make you paranoid and make crazy decisions to try and fit the bias of the unconcious bias education propaganda you were fed.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    malcolmg said:

    Everybody has some bias for certain, more likely to just make you paranoid and make crazy decisions to try and fit the bias of the unconcious bias education propaganda you were fed.
    Well, if that describes one main effect on me, it's certainly one way to describe being more systematic and careful when doing job application assessments!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,670
    edited April 2024
    An interesting short 3 minute video about a *stacked* pedestrian / cycling / road tunnel under a railway, due to the need to replace an urban level crossing and restricted width.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmDLSHLWcIE
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    Elon is far less discerning than Leon when it come to believing and amplifying conspiracy theories posted on X.
    https://twitter.com/MattGertz/status/1775272762409721895

    He might be a genius at running engineering businesses, but he's a clueless idiot when it comes to politics.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,233
    MattW said:

    An interesting short 3 minute video about a *stacked* pedestrian / cycling / road tunnel under a railway, due to the need to replace an urban level crossing and restricted width.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmDLSHLWcIE

    Thoughts about the “High Speed Bus Road” route mentioned.

    Since it is an immutable law that railways in the U.K. must cost £1bn per mile or something, what about Bus/Coach roads?

    With the advent of electric vehicles…. Hmmmmm
  • It does worry me that someone like Nick Palmer hasn’t worked out that it is the Tories who need to be ousted from government and not the LibDems: https://labourlist.org/2024/04/labour-lib-dem-bar-charts-campaigning-general-election-2024-rural-seats/

    (Although the article is dated 1st April so perhaps he meant it as a joke.)

    More seriously, though, why are there still some in the opposition parties who haven't learned that if they fight amongst themselves it will simply lead to more Tories clinging onto their seats?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103
    Carnyx said:

    Well, if that describes one main effect on me, it's certainly one way to describe being more systematic and careful when doing job application assessments!
    However you may be being more biased in other ways now as you are conciously biased as well as unconciously now perhaps.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,163

    It's not that improbable.

    EC doesn't take account of swingback and tactical voting. Both are likely, neither is certain.
    If you get swingback but little tactical voting then it ain't so bad for the Blue Team, but if you get tactical voting and no swingback, even 32 might be a bit on the high side.

    I stress that this is not probable, but it certainly ain't impossible.
    A question worth asking is: does Sunak have the ability to run a halfway competent election campaign?

    It's possible the Tories will overall run a better campaign than Labour and gain some ground as a result. There might well be competent people in the background.

    But it wouldn't surprise me to see the wheels come off a Sunak-led election campaign. What happens if your campaign is a Theresa May style disaster, but you start the campaign 20 points behind rather than 20 points ahead? We might find out.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,820

    Yes, I suspect it's actually to give the company a defence: "look, all our people have done the training" and, as you say, it creates a nice little business for those who create them.

    I will report back once I've done it.
    if you're managing more than 1 person you have to do this so the company can cover itself if it turns out you been treating them inequitably.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,685
    @TopDog

    Never heard of you, but great article!
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,366

    It does worry me that someone like Nick Palmer hasn’t worked out that it is the Tories who need to be ousted from government and not the LibDems: https://labourlist.org/2024/04/labour-lib-dem-bar-charts-campaigning-general-election-2024-rural-seats/

    (Although the article is dated 1st April so perhaps he meant it as a joke.)

    More seriously, though, why are there still some in the opposition parties who haven't learned that if they fight amongst themselves it will simply lead to more Tories clinging onto their seats?

    The saving grace is that the number of seats where that's going to be a decisive issue is probably pretty small.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715
    I have done them in the past. Four pictures of people. Some combination of black, white, Asian, South Asian, male, female, one in a wheelchair, one with one hand, one in a smart suit, one in business casual (ugh).

    Question: which one of these do you think is a bricklayer.

    Absurd.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,685
    Foxy said:

    If you have nothing to hide, why try to game the answers? Indeed a high score only sets a higher bar for your behaviour IRL.




    Princess Leia said "It's a trap!" , not once, but TWICE, in the previous Star Wars movie:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjONM1919rQ
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774

    It does worry me that someone like Nick Palmer hasn’t worked out that it is the Tories who need to be ousted from government and not the LibDems: https://labourlist.org/2024/04/labour-lib-dem-bar-charts-campaigning-general-election-2024-rural-seats/

    (Although the article is dated 1st April so perhaps he meant it as a joke.)

    More seriously, though, why are there still some in the opposition parties who haven't learned that if they fight amongst themselves it will simply lead to more Tories clinging onto their seats?

    There's a distinct 'what's best for Labour is best for the country' vibe there.
    FPTP duopoly mindset.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    Carnyx said:

    Just so. Me too.
    The problem here is perhaps that those designing, administering and reviewing the results of such courses imagine that they are somehow immune to their own particular biases.

    I simultaneously have some sympathy with Casino, and think that he seriously overreacts to what is a relatively minor irritation.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,945
    ydoethur said:

    Callaghan didn’t go to the polls in 1978 because (as with Brown in 2007) his internal polling showed a picture a good deal less rosy than the one the papers were painting. He decided it would be better to wait and see what happened. Unfortunately for him it was the Winter of Discontent.

    Brown, had he gone in 2009, would have lost very badly. The extra six months gave time for doubts about Cameron’s vacuity to surface. Didn’t help Labour’s poll share - they still had the worst result in terms of the popular vote of any government since 1832 - but it cost the Tories enough votes to put even a small majority out of reach.

    That’s clearly what Sunak is hoping for here. It may happen, as well, although I don’t think it will even come close to saving his government.
    A hung parliament won't save his government (Sunak's). Let's be honest, the direction of travel is everything. If the Cons lose 100 seats and Labour gains them, whilst technically the Conservatives could form a coalition government, no one will work with them. We saw this in 2010, and heck, even February 1974.

    For the Conservatives its a majority or bust. And if they know they won't get a majority then its bust.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,685

    My firm has just launched mandatory unconscious bias training - the overview cites BLM and a commitment to "systemic change" and includes a training tool that will assess my bias in gender, race and social mobility.

    I must complete it by the end of June.

    [Sunil struggles to stop bursting out laughing :lol: ]
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214

    It's not that improbable.

    EC doesn't take account of swingback and tactical voting. Both are likely, neither is certain.
    If you get swingback but little tactical voting then it ain't so bad for the Blue Team, but if you get tactical voting and no swingback, even 32 might be a bit on the high side.

    I stress that this is not probable, but it certainly ain't impossible.
    It is pretty improbable, though not outright impossible. The key to it is that Reform 'high' number of 22 MPs - if they can take that many MPs then they'll be making enough inroads in enough 'safe' Tory seats that there'll be a pincer effect with Labour and the Lib Dems (primarily) gaining a lot more as the Tory vote just sinks.

    But for the Tories to be down in the 30s means losing a *lot* of seats where neither Labour nor the Lib Dems have much local data or organisation (though nor do the Tories, in a lot of cases), and both are starting *far* behind. It could happen but it'd need a vote split something like 45 / 19 / 10 / 18.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327

    There's a lot of emerging evidence now that unconscious bias training courses are either ineffective - and actually waste time and money - or slightly negative as they reinforce people identifying along identity group lines and thus contribute to polarisation.

    What's so fascinating here is that many on the liberal-left think Juche is an effective re-education programme for the delinquents.

    That isn't true.

    I can't speak for the entire liberal -left but perhaps we think assimilating as much evidence and making judgement calls on the back of that evidence is healthy.

    Your view is; some bastard is trying to brainwash me, which I suspect is a wholly false narrative.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    Labour should not make much effort in seats where the Lib Dems are second to the Tories .

    They could be accused of being overly confident and assuming this poll lead will hold up . If the Tories close the gap then tactical voting is more important .

    The number one priority is to remove the Tories .

    Labour and the Lib Dems need to come to an arrangement.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,160
    Tres said:

    if you're managing more than 1 person you have to do this so the company can cover itself if it turns out you been treating them inequitably.
    CCHQ could probably pick up a few hundred votes with "Sunak to ban unconscious bias training". Will be in the Telegraph next week.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774

    That isn't true.

    I can't speak for the entire liberal -left but perhaps we think assimilating as much evidence and making judgement calls on the back of that evidence is healthy.

    Your view is; some bastard is trying to brainwash me, which I suspect is a wholly false narrative.
    Largely, but not wholly false, IMO.
  • nico679 said:

    Labour should not make much effort in seats where the Lib Dems are second to the Tories .

    They could be accused of being overly confident and assuming this poll lead will hold up . If the Tories close the gap then tactical voting is more important .

    The number one priority is to remove the Tories .

    Labour and the Lib Dems need to come to an arrangement.

    These things can usually be done best with a nod and a wink. I can certainly remember telling a Labour Candidate why I was voting LD in Guildford, and he said 'That's right, but don't tell anyone I said that.'

    It's gaming the system, but when you have a crap system, what are you supposed to do?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited April 2024
    Nigelb said:

    The problem here is perhaps that those designing, administering and reviewing the results of such courses imagine that they are somehow immune to their own particular biases.

    I simultaneously have some sympathy with Casino, and think that he seriously overreacts to what is a relatively minor irritation.
    Mm. It's a fair point to raise, your first para, but certainly the courses I did seemed reasonably open-ended to the degree that the only implicit bias was that there was a potential problem which needed to be dealt with - edit: actually, it was fairly explicit!

    The other point that might be made is that we are all vulnerable - so even if some HR procedures are of no value to us personally others might well be. Consider, for instance, unconscious bias against the older employee. Even *conscious* bias was perfectly legal until quite recently. So new employees need to understand the situation. And so on.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045

    It does worry me that someone like Nick Palmer hasn’t worked out that it is the Tories who need to be ousted from government and not the LibDems: https://labourlist.org/2024/04/labour-lib-dem-bar-charts-campaigning-general-election-2024-rural-seats/

    (Although the article is dated 1st April so perhaps he meant it as a joke.)

    More seriously, though, why are there still some in the opposition parties who haven't learned that if they fight amongst themselves it will simply lead to more Tories clinging onto their seats?

    It could be a saving grace for some Tories, and damage the potential tactical voting that @Peter_the_Punter refers to above.

    If Labour (as per that article) have started to look with eager eyes on the very deep targets (coming from a poor third with mid-teens scores on the previous notionals and minimal local government presence), then they will clash with Lib Dem higher targets (the example given is around a top 20 LD target and around a 208 Labour target, and one I know very intimately).

    The Tories will certainly be hoping to hold on through the middle on a seat they might have nearly given up on before.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,724
    Tres said:

    if you're managing more than 1 person you have to do this so the company can cover itself if it turns out you been treating them inequitably.
    Unconscious bias training is not legally mandated. The Government advises against it: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/written-ministerial-statement-on-unconscious-bias-training
  • It is pretty improbable, though not outright impossible. The key to it is that Reform 'high' number of 22 MPs - if they can take that many MPs then they'll be making enough inroads in enough 'safe' Tory seats that there'll be a pincer effect with Labour and the Lib Dems (primarily) gaining a lot more as the Tory vote just sinks.

    But for the Tories to be down in the 30s means losing a *lot* of seats where neither Labour nor the Lib Dems have much local data or organisation (though nor do the Tories, in a lot of cases), and both are starting *far* behind. It could happen but it'd need a vote split something like 45 / 19 / 10 / 18.
    Yes, and for the avoidance of doubt, David, this is not an outcome I would particularly relish. You understand my views on good government and effective oppositin, no doubt.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327
    Nigelb said:

    Largely, but not wholly false, IMO.
    I suspect it depends on the course material and the presenter.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045

    These things can usually be done best with a nod and a wink. I can certainly remember telling a Labour Candidate why I was voting LD in Guildford, and he said 'That's right, but don't tell anyone I said that.'

    It's gaming the system, but when you have a crap system, what are you supposed to do?
    That can fall down when a local party decides not to play along.

    Who would you consider best placed in a seat with:

    Previous notionals of Con 50, LD 31, Lab 16
    County Council representation of Con 5, LD 5, Green 1 (0 Lab)
    District Council of Con 1, LD 20, Lab 3, Green 3

    And where the LDs have been working it hard since 2019 and Labour have only just started?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    I suspect it depends on the course material and the presenter.
    Also, it seems to form a very small part of the overall training courses - on such things as racial discrimination, staff selection, IT behaviour (security, emails, etc.), and so on and so forth. I suspect it's used as a stalking horse or scapegoat for all those things which stop one behaving as one would sometines like.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    edited April 2024
    nico679 said:

    Labour should not make much effort in seats where the Lib Dems are second to the Tories .

    They could be accused of being overly confident and assuming this poll lead will hold up . If the Tories close the gap then tactical voting is more important .

    The number one priority is to remove the Tories .

    Labour and the Lib Dems need to come to an arrangement.

    There won't be any formal arrangements between Labour and the Lib Dems but once the campaign stars "non political" organisations like Best for Britain will promote tactical voting and publish lists showing which party is best placed to beat the Tory in each constituency. Their recommendations will be taken up by the parties on the ground and this will do a lot to reduce the risk of LD/Labour infighting letting the Tories through the middle.

    And Labour has a long-standing policy of twinning safe and unwinnable constituencies with marginals and targets. Activists in seats where the Lib Dems are the main challengers will be sent to other constituencies where Labour's prospect are brighter.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,945
    Tres said:

    if you're managing more than 1 person you have to do this so the company can cover itself if it turns out you been treating them inequitably.
    This seems unlikely.
    I work for a Council run school. I haven't, and am not aware of anyone else having unconscious bias training.
    In fact, I haven't had any equality nor diversity training in the two years I've worked there. Safeguarding, yes.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327

    These things can usually be done best with a nod and a wink. I can certainly remember telling a Labour Candidate why I was voting LD in Guildford, and he said 'That's right, but don't tell anyone I said that.'

    It's gaming the system, but when you have a crap system, what are you supposed to do?
    Labour are a bit thick that they haven't cottoned on that FPTP is not their friend. What is it? FPTP has delivered circa 25 years of Labour Governments in the last 75
  • A question worth asking is: does Sunak have the ability to run a halfway competent election campaign?

    It's possible the Tories will overall run a better campaign than Labour and gain some ground as a result. There might well be competent people in the background.

    But it wouldn't surprise me to see the wheels come off a Sunak-led election campaign. What happens if your campaign is a Theresa May style disaster, but you start the campaign 20 points behind rather than 20 points ahead? We might find out.
    It's a possibility that has been little mentioned, LP, but I agree with you.

    Starmer isn't charismatic, but he is competent, and he may well come across better in a campaign that allows people to get to know him better. I thought Sunak was a good pick at the time, but he's surprised on the downside since taking office. If that continues through a GE campaign, Conservative Party Central Office has a problem.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,670
    edited April 2024

    It could be a saving grace for some Tories, and damage the potential tactical voting that @Peter_the_Punter refers to above.

    If Labour (as per that article) have started to look with eager eyes on the very deep targets (coming from a poor third with mid-teens scores on the previous notionals and minimal local government presence), then they will clash with Lib Dem higher targets (the example given is around a top 20 LD target and around a 208 Labour target, and one I know very intimately).

    The Tories will certainly be hoping to hold on through the middle on a seat they might have nearly given up on before.
    Those would perhaps need lowish RefUK votes wrt Tories, too.

    How many have that?

    In this part of the red wall it feels as if the Torys and RefUK are going to sink into the abyss together, still eating each other like a double ouroboros.

    I'm sure @TSE has a suitable, similar Greek myth he can recount.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103

    I suspect it depends on the course material and the presenter.
    Bet it is nearly 100% online "Janet and John " stuff with a test at end of each section a la Topping's excellent post on it.
  • Labour are a bit thick that they haven't cottoned on that FPTP is not their friend. What is it? FPTP has delivered circa 25 years of Labour Governments in the last 75
    It's just a crap system, MP, and should be abolished, but it is self-perpetuatiing.
  • DonkeysDonkeys Posts: 723
    edited April 2024
    The US warned Russia on 6 March that Crocus City Hall was a potential terrorist target. Both have confirmed it. That was the day before the US warned its citizens to avoid large gatherings. This makes a scenario similar to the 1999 Moscow apartment block bombings improbable, albeit not impossible.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,576

    It could be a saving grace for some Tories, and damage the potential tactical voting that @Peter_the_Punter refers to above.

    If Labour (as per that article) have started to look with eager eyes on the very deep targets (coming from a poor third with mid-teens scores on the previous notionals and minimal local government presence), then they will clash with Lib Dem higher targets (the example given is around a top 20 LD target and around a 208 Labour target, and one I know very intimately).

    The Tories will certainly be hoping to hold on through the middle on a seat they might have nearly given up on before.
    Is that why thee's no Reform candidate listed (yet) for Witham?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,342
    edited April 2024

    It's a lot of Woke bollocks. It won't make a smidgen of a difference to anything.

    But, we keep being told by the likes of you that such things don't exist. Now, you'll pivot seamlessly to "what's the problem?" and "it will do you good".

    Watch.
    That’s the same tactic they use with immigration

    Pre opening of floodgates

    “There will only be 13,000 A8 immigrants, no big deal”

    Turns out there are about 3 million and that’s undermined job security and held wages down at the bottom end

    “It’s vital for the economy, you EUracist”
  • That can fall down when a local party decides not to play along.

    Who would you consider best placed in a seat with:

    Previous notionals of Con 50, LD 31, Lab 16
    County Council representation of Con 5, LD 5, Green 1 (0 Lab)
    District Council of Con 1, LD 20, Lab 3, Green 3

    And where the LDs have been working it hard since 2019 and Labour have only just started?
    Oh, it's problematic alright, Andy. My own seat of Tewkesbury is a good example. But nerds like us ought to do their best.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045

    Oh, it's problematic alright, Andy. My own seat of Tewkesbury is a good example. But nerds like us ought to do their best.
    I thought this one was quite straightforward.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774

    Labour are a bit thick that they haven't cottoned on that FPTP is not their friend. What is it? FPTP has delivered circa 25 years of Labour Governments in the last 75
    They still though cherish the idea of replacing the Tories as the "natural party of government".

    Which is a pretty undemocratic concept, IMO.
  • DonkeysDonkeys Posts: 723
    edited April 2024
    TOPPING said:

    I have done them in the past. Four pictures of people. Some combination of black, white, Asian, South Asian, male, female, one in a wheelchair, one with one hand, one in a smart suit, one in business casual (ugh).

    Question: which one of these do you think is a bricklayer.

    Absurd.

    1. It's like Mansonian conditioning. 2+2=5 is everywhere in British culture nowadays.

    2. It's also illustration of mass white-collar overemployment since the onset of widespread computerisation about 40 years ago.

    1 can go on. 2 can't.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    edited April 2024

    Labour are a bit thick that they haven't cottoned on that FPTP is not their friend. What is it? FPTP has delivered circa 25 years of Labour Governments in the last 75
    In 1945, 1966, 1997 and 2001 and 2005 and on current polls FPTP was/is Labour's friend delivering big majorities. In 2017 FPTP got Corbyn just 60 odd seats from a majority.

    Corbynites often tend to oppose PR on the basis that the road to socialism does not lie in post election coalition governments with the Liberal Democrats. It was always the Roy Jenkins Social Democrats and LDs who were most in favour of PR (along with the Greens now and Reform)
  • Petition to invent a new word as woke is meaningless.
  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 437

    Is it true that "for the Tories to be down in the 30s means losing a *lot* of seats where neither Labour nor the Lib Dems have much local data or organisation"?

    I live in a classic Blue Wall seat: on paper among the Tories' 50 safest. Since 2019, the Tory vote has collapsed in local elections, and our Parish, District and County councils are now dominated by anti-Tories. Whether they can break through to take the Parliamentary seat is debateable: the anti-Tory vote is split between LDs, Lab and Greens and there's not a shred of evidence Reform has any local following, so there's a depressingly high chance the much-maligned local Tory will survive.

    But what's absolutely NOT true is that the LDs lack data or organisation. Unlike either Lab or Tories, the LDs have both everywhere in the Westminster seat- and their activists are fit enough to organise the less fit into backroom tasks, while no Tory has been seen canvassing, telling or pumping out leaflets for at least 7 years. And in the naturally Labour-leaning parts of the Parliamentary constituency, Labour has similar campaigning strength..

    Over the past 20 years, in this bit of the Blue Wall we've seen two profound political changes. The Tories' traditional role as social backdrop to the area has disappeared. And with it, the Tories' ability to understand the mentality of this bit of Middle England. Here at least (and OK, the area's particular uniqueness is the astronomic proportion of the electorate with postgraduate degrees) it's the anti-Tories who understand this - and the Tories who still live (for their few remaining years) in the forelock-tugging 1950s
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327
    malcolmg said:

    Bet it is nearly 100% online "Janet and John " stuff with a test at end of each section a la Topping's excellent post on it.
    Well you are obviously using the wrong training provider.

    My courses focus on legislation, regulation,
    and obligations to the above. Compliance with for example, the Equalities Act 2010 , Equal Pay Act 1970, Sex Discrimination Act 1975, Race Relations Act 1976, the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 and GDPR.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    That can fall down when a local party decides not to play along.

    Who would you consider best placed in a seat with:

    Previous notionals of Con 50, LD 31, Lab 16
    County Council representation of Con 5, LD 5, Green 1 (0 Lab)
    District Council of Con 1, LD 20, Lab 3, Green 3

    And where the LDs have been working it hard since 2019 and Labour have only just started?
    Local parties do not have the option of "not playing along" - all Labour's targeting is done centrally and members are contacted directly telling them where they should be concentrating their efforts. Of course a few may ignore the instructions but this will have no practical impact on the ground - the kind of members who ignore party priorities are not those likely to be able to run effective local campaigns. And anyway most party members will be on board with the targeting strategy.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,366

    It could be a saving grace for some Tories, and damage the potential tactical voting that @Peter_the_Punter refers to above.

    If Labour (as per that article) have started to look with eager eyes on the very deep targets (coming from a poor third with mid-teens scores on the previous notionals and minimal local government presence), then they will clash with Lib Dem higher targets (the example given is around a top 20 LD target and around a 208 Labour target, and one I know very intimately).

    The Tories will certainly be hoping to hold on through the middle on a seat they might have nearly given up on before.
    My impression is that there was, if not a Sordid Deal, at least a conveniently shared understanding of the realities of the electoral map in the earlier years of the Parliament. Possibly oiled by a deniable "oops, I'm forever leaving bits of paper around" conversation in the backroom of a dingy Westminster pub.

    Trouble is, that was predicated on the Conservatives polling in the mid thirties. That's rather been overtaken by events. There probably is now a large group of seats where, left to their own devices, voters will catapult Labour from third to first. Galling if you are a Lib Dem, but them's the breaks.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327
    Nigelb said:

    They still though cherish the idea of replacing the Tories as the "natural party of government".

    Which is a pretty undemocratic concept, IMO.
    ...and unrealistic.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    Donkeys said:

    The US warned Russia on 6 March that Crocus City Hall was a potential terrorist target. Both have confirmed it. That was the day before the US warned its citizens to avoid large gatherings. This makes a scenario similar to the 1999 Moscow apartment block bombings improbable, albeit not impossible.

    Meanwhile, this is the new normal in Europe.
    It should not be accepted as such.

    In March alone, Russian terrorists used over 400 missiles of various types, 600 "Shahed" drones, and over 3,000 guided aerial bombs against Ukraine.

    This terror is wreaking havoc on cities and villages throughout Ukraine, and Russia is particularly relentless in bombarding frontline and border areas.

    Our city of over a million people, Kharkiv, has been subjected to missile and drone strikes since the full-scale war began. Recently, Russian terrorists also began to use aerial bombs against Kharkiv. The city sees daily humiliation and pain, as well as daily losses. Critical infrastructure has been destroyed, and ordinary residential buildings are being demolished on a daily basis.

    None of this will be possible when Ukraine receives reliable air defense systems capable of saving lives and restoring security to our cities. "Patriots" in the hands of Ukrainians have demonstrated that all forms of Russian terror can be defeated.

    This is what our Kharkiv, as well as all of our cities and communities, require right now, as Russian strikes threaten their lives.

    https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1775428667532775431
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327
    HYUFD said:

    In 1945, 1966, 1997 and 2001 and 2005 and on current polls FPTP was/is Labour's friend delivering big majorities. In 2017 FPTP got Corbyn just 60 odd seats from a majority.

    Corbynites often tend to oppose PR on the basis that the road to socialism does not lie in post election coalition governments with the Liberal Democrats. It was always the Roy Jenkins Social Democrats and LDs who were most in favour of PR (along with the Greens now and Reform)
    Thank you Lord Astor. Mandy Rice-Davies sends her regards.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited April 2024

    Unconscious bias training is not legally mandated. The Government advises against it: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/written-ministerial-statement-on-unconscious-bias-training
    It’s mostly coming from the US, headed by institutional investors under the label ESG (environmental, social, and governance) and more recently DEI (diversity, equity, and inclusion). Some of the American DEI courses are straightforward “Critical Race Theory” as espoused by organisations such as Black Liver Matter, and are not going to make workplaces anything than much more adversarial, dividing people into “Oppressor” and “Oppressed” groups based on immutable characteristics.

    https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/blackrock-ceo-slammed-force-behaviors-dei-initiatives

    Of course, done properly courses around discrimination can be incredibly useful, yet most of them are anything but.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,163

    It's a possibility that has been little mentioned, LP, but I agree with you.

    Starmer isn't charismatic, but he is competent, and he may well come across better in a campaign that allows people to get to know him better. I thought Sunak was a good pick at the time, but he's surprised on the downside since taking office. If that continues through a GE campaign, Conservative Party Central Office has a problem.
    In terms of whether Sunak will have a good campaign the evidence stacks up as follows.

    BAD CAMPAIGN
    Poor judgement.
    Comes across as insincere.
    Uncanny valley in interviews with the public.
    Appeared to just give up on recent by-elections.

    GOOD CAMPAIGN
    Uxbridge by-election shows that if they can find a wedge issue they can exploit it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    JUST IN: An extraordinary filing from Jack Smith tonight that is almost incredulous at how legally incorrect Judge Cannon's jury instruction scenarios are re: Trump's claim that he designted reams of classified info as "personal" on the way out of the WH.
    https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1775370773705687271

    Lawyers might enjoy reading the entire thing.
    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.648652/gov.uscourts.flsd.648652.428.0_1.pdf

    The rest of us have an opportunity to learn what is a writ of mandamus.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandamus#Federal_courts
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327
    edited April 2024
    ...

    In terms of whether Sunak will have a good campaign the evidence stacks up as follows.

    BAD CAMPAIGN
    Poor judgement.
    Comes across as insincere.
    Uncanny valley in interviews with the public.
    Appeared to just give up on recent by-elections.

    GOOD CAMPAIGN
    Uxbridge by-election shows that if they can find a wedge issue they can exploit it.
    Check out the swing in Uxbridge, and it was a wedge issue of the moment.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    edited April 2024
    Balmoral is fully opened to the public for the first time at £100 a ticket, including tea and tour

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13265155/king-charles-opens-balmoral-doors-public-tickets-cost.html
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,022
    edited April 2024
    Is TopDog a regular on the site? I've got to say there is virtually nothing in this article that I agree with. Thatcher and Blair didn't win elections I would suggest because of timing. If governments are ahead after 4 years they hold elections. If not they wait as long as they can for something to turn up. The exceptions being Heath, effectively unable to govern due to labour relations, May thinking she could get a big majority (and then didn't) and Johnson because Parliament was descending into farce.

    Many former Prime ministers would have done different things to Sunak and might have made a better fist of the job than he has. I don't think any of them would have held an election early when the polls didn't state a likely victory.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327

    Is TopDog a regular on the site? I've got to say there is virtually nothing in this article that I agree with. Thatcher and Blair didn't win elections I would suggest because of timing. If governments are ahead after 4 years they hold elections. If not they wait as long as they can for something to turn up. The exceptions being Heath, effectively unable to govern due to labour relations, May thinking she could get a big majority (and then didn't) and Johnson because Parliament was descending into farce.Top

    Many former Prime ministers would have done different things to Sunak and might have made a better fist of the job than he has. I don't think any of them would have held an election early when the polls didn't state a likely victory.

    On the back of your post perhaps @TopDog is really "BigDog".
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,279
    Do posters really not know who TopDog Is?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    Nigelb said:

    JUST IN: An extraordinary filing from Jack Smith tonight that is almost incredulous at how legally incorrect Judge Cannon's jury instruction scenarios are re: Trump's claim that he designted reams of classified info as "personal" on the way out of the WH.
    https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1775370773705687271

    Lawyers might enjoy reading the entire thing.
    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.648652/gov.uscourts.flsd.648652.428.0_1.pdf

    The rest of us have an opportunity to learn what is a writ of mandamus.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandamus#Federal_courts

    Trumps luck must surely run out at some point . The judge is clearly a Trump arse licker and should be removed .
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited April 2024
    boulay said:

    Rather than “bias” it can just be accidental ignorance which would be fairer as less accusatory. For example had my eyes opened to a form of unconscious ignorance on here yesterday. There was a link to an article about the number of pregnancies in Texas resulting from rape since Roe v wade was squashed.

    I looked at the figure, think it was 26,000, and thought that’s got to be absolute bullshit. 26,000 women pregnant from rapes must mean that significantly higher numbers were raped which just can’t be true.

    I looked at the population of Texas and thought it’s below half of the UK so that would mean there must be double maybe in UK so I looked up UK stats.

    I just couldn’t believe that many women are raped each year. Seriously staggered. I thought it was a couple of thousand, which would be grim enough but the figures are huge.

    So I learnt something that countered my beliefs which might have coloured my judgement on issues and arguments. I didn’t have a bias in any way but I just didn’t know.

    So if we are trying to “improve” people then maybe best to come at it from an enlightening angle rather than a hectoring angle.
    I was startled by that too at the same time - but mentally thought, start with one per cent of women being raped a year, which sounds about right as an order of magnitude, more so than 0.1 per cent, and that is [edit] not too far off ten times the number of pregnancies reported.

    Can't remember ever being hectored, though ...
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,163

    ...

    Check out the swing in Uxbridge, and it was a wedge issue of the moment.
    The swing in Uxbridge was 6.7%.
    The swing in Selby and Aintsy, on the same day, was 23.7%.

    Obviously they would need to find a different issue to be the wedge, and it would have to have widespread applicability, but when they did have such an issue they were able to use it effectively to create a massive difference in the swing against them.

    If the Tories had been complete no-hopers then they'd have contrived to bungle that campaign and also lose Uxbridge.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,685
    HYUFD said:

    Balmoral is fully opened to the public for the first time at £100 a ticket, including tea and tour

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13265155/king-charles-opens-balmoral-doors-public-tickets-cost.html

    Rip-off merchants!!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile, this is the new normal in Europe.
    It should not be accepted as such.

    In March alone, Russian terrorists used over 400 missiles of various types, 600 "Shahed" drones, and over 3,000 guided aerial bombs against Ukraine.

    This terror is wreaking havoc on cities and villages throughout Ukraine, and Russia is particularly relentless in bombarding frontline and border areas.

    Our city of over a million people, Kharkiv, has been subjected to missile and drone strikes since the full-scale war began. Recently, Russian terrorists also began to use aerial bombs against Kharkiv. The city sees daily humiliation and pain, as well as daily losses. Critical infrastructure has been destroyed, and ordinary residential buildings are being demolished on a daily basis.

    None of this will be possible when Ukraine receives reliable air defense systems capable of saving lives and restoring security to our cities. "Patriots" in the hands of Ukrainians have demonstrated that all forms of Russian terror can be defeated.

    This is what our Kharkiv, as well as all of our cities and communities, require right now, as Russian strikes threaten their lives.

    https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1775428667532775431
    Well he’s not wrong, Patriot is a bloody good air defence system.

    Now come on NATO countries, and send everything they can get their hands on to defend Kharkiv, a city the size of Manchester that’s seeing daily bombings worse then the IRA ever did to the place.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,685
    HYUFD said:

    In 1945, 1966, 1997 and 2001 and 2005 and on current polls FPTP was/is Labour's friend delivering big majorities. In 2017 FPTP got Corbyn just 60 odd seats from a majority.

    Corbynites often tend to oppose PR on the basis that the road to socialism does not lie in post election coalition governments with the Liberal Democrats. It was always the Roy Jenkins Social Democrats and LDs who were most in favour of PR (along with the Greens now and Reform)
    You forgot 2015.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,724
    isam said:

    That’s the same tactic they use with immigration

    Pre opening of floodgates

    “There will only be 13,000 A8 immigrants, no big deal”

    Turns out there are about 3 million and that’s undermined job security and held wages down at the bottom end

    “It’s vital for the economy, you EUracist”
    Yet immigration has gone up since Brexit. Who lied to you on that one?
This discussion has been closed.