Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
There was ALREADY a war.
Yes I know, Israel was attacked in the past, however there was a ceasefire which Hamas broke - again.
Getting another ceasefire without destroying Hamas will just guarantee another war down the line. Do you want another war down the line? I don't.
If you don’t want another war it’s an odd decision to create a whole generation of Hamas agents who would love to start another one. Your strategy is self-defeating.
The way to avoid creating a whole generation of Hamas agents is to 100% destroy Hamas today, then afterwards have a post-Hamas reconstruction and development like the Marshal plan in Germany.
Stick and carrot. Its worked before and can work again.
Allow Hamas to survive this, have a meaningless "ceasefire" then have Gaza returned to being a blockaded hellhole that can't develop as Hamas are there and you just guarantee another generation of Hamas agents.
You're advocating the latter, whether you understand it or not. Give peace a chance, vanquish Hamas then develop Gaza without them.
I do not say much on this conflict as the suffering is unbearable and Netanyahu and Hamas have to be stopped somehow
There can be no winners here, and honestly I just consider it is impossible to destroy Hamas 100%, especially now
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
The last thing Ukraine needs right now is to be likened to Israel.
Russia is not an insurgent terrorist organisation, it’s a vast nation state that fancies having a bit of its neighbours. Ukraine is not a nuclear armed regional hegemon, with settlements encroaching on Russian land and an ultra-nationalist populist leader in power.
Israel has its justifications for retaliating after 7th October but the situation is much less black and white than Ukraine where there is a good guy and a bad guy and very little need for nuance.
Israel is the good guy, it is a free democracy that has been attacked.
Hamas are the bad guys. They are evil, authoritarian terrorists.
The refusal to acknowledge Israel as the good guy here stems from antisemitism in my eyes. Anyone else would absolutely be acknowledged unequivocally as the good guy.
I wonder if the Tory Right are planning to go absolutely nuclear over race and Islam - something along the lines that every Muslim in Britain will have sign a pledge committing themselves unwaveringly to 'British Values' whilst repudiating anything deemed incompatible with 'Judeo-Christian' traditions, otherwise they face deportation or jail. (Rishi has got wind of this and has positioned himself in advance.) The likes of Anderson, Braverman and Truss do seem to be gearing up for something big.
I don’t think so. Look at their actual policies (as opposed to their GB news chat) and it’s clear they don’t have the stomach to go full fash. Maybe in future, but not before the election.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
The last thing Ukraine needs right now is to be likened to Israel.
Russia is not an insurgent terrorist organisation, it’s a vast nation state that fancies having a bit of its neighbours. Ukraine is not a nuclear armed regional hegemon, with settlements encroaching on Russian land and an ultra-nationalist populist leader in power.
Israel has its justifications for retaliating after 7th October but the situation is much less black and white than Ukraine where there is a good guy and a bad guy and very little need for nuance.
Israel is the good guy, it is a free democracy that has been attacked.
Hamas are the bad guys. They are evil, authoritarian terrorists.
The refusal to acknowledge Israel as the good guy here stems from antisemitism in my eyes. Anyone else would absolutely be acknowledged unequivocally as the good guy.
Israel is not the good guy. Not with the current government.
Are they better than Hamas, clearly. But it is quite clear why you see it as you do when you are so blinded to Israel's many flaws, probable war crimes and the fact you are quite happy to see thousands of people killed when it probably won't even work.
A 'like' for the header. Dismal leadership from both. If Trump becomes President and with the UK being outside the EU the lack of independent thought from our leaders is going to be very serious
It isn't, on Ukraine NATO is more important than the EU and we remain in that and on Israel and Palestine our position is largely neutral ie pushing for Hamas to release hostages and Israel to then agree a ceasefire like most European nations, Australia, the Biden US and Canada.
Trump's US would be a relative outlier from us and the rest of the West ie more pro Netanyahu in the Middle East and even supporting his occupation of most of Palestine and less pro Zelensky and pushing for him to agree a deal with Putin
Nutjob is pro other nutjob. Netanyahu is Trump but in Israel.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
There was ALREADY a war.
Yes I know, Israel was attacked in the past, however there was a ceasefire which Hamas broke - again.
Getting another ceasefire without destroying Hamas will just guarantee another war down the line. Do you want another war down the line? I don't.
If you don’t want another war it’s an odd decision to create a whole generation of Hamas agents who would love to start another one. Your strategy is self-defeating.
The way to avoid creating a whole generation of Hamas agents is to 100% destroy Hamas today, then afterwards have a post-Hamas reconstruction and development like the Marshal plan in Germany.
Stick and carrot. Its worked before and can work again.
Allow Hamas to survive this, have a meaningless "ceasefire" then have Gaza returned to being a blockaded hellhole that can't develop as Hamas are there and you just guarantee another generation of Hamas agents.
You're advocating the latter, whether you understand it or not. Give peace a chance, vanquish Hamas then develop Gaza without them.
Are you seriously saying that by destroying Rafah Hamas will never start again? When has this EVER happened?
Mark my words, destroying Rafah will set peace back. The US knows it. The UK knows it. Apparently you don’t.
I didn't say destroy Rafah, I said destroy Hamas.
If Hamas are in Rafah then that means going after them there, and anywhere else they hide.
When has this ever happened? I've given you examples: Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan etc.
Keep on fighting until there's an unconditional surrender and then rebuild. No ceasefire, complete and unconditional surrender.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
The last thing Ukraine needs right now is to be likened to Israel.
Russia is not an insurgent terrorist organisation, it’s a vast nation state that fancies having a bit of its neighbours. Ukraine is not a nuclear armed regional hegemon, with settlements encroaching on Russian land and an ultra-nationalist populist leader in power.
Israel has its justifications for retaliating after 7th October but the situation is much less black and white than Ukraine where there is a good guy and a bad guy and very little need for nuance.
Israel is the good guy, it is a free democracy that has been attacked.
Hamas are the bad guys. They are evil, authoritarian terrorists.
The refusal to acknowledge Israel as the good guy here stems from antisemitism in my eyes. Anyone else would absolutely be acknowledged unequivocally as the good guy.
Israel was the wronged party in October. But they have deliberately attacked civilian targets repeatedly while Ukraine have gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties (unlike Russia).
And Israel under Netanyahu and his far right coalition partners (and before, frankly) was behaving as a bully across the West Bank for years.
I was fiercely supportive of Israel in the weeks after the start of the war despite my distaste for their leadership, but they have really tested everyone’s tolerance since, in a way Ukraine has never done.
As for anti-semitism, I agree there is a disproportionate focus by some particularly on the left on the Israel Palestine conflict and AS is definitely part of it, but believing Israel cannot be criticised is a form of othering too.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
There was ALREADY a war.
Yes I know, Israel was attacked in the past, however there was a ceasefire which Hamas broke - again.
Getting another ceasefire without destroying Hamas will just guarantee another war down the line. Do you want another war down the line? I don't.
If you don’t want another war it’s an odd decision to create a whole generation of Hamas agents who would love to start another one. Your strategy is self-defeating.
The way to avoid creating a whole generation of Hamas agents is to 100% destroy Hamas today, then afterwards have a post-Hamas reconstruction and development like the Marshal plan in Germany.
Stick and carrot. Its worked before and can work again.
Allow Hamas to survive this, have a meaningless "ceasefire" then have Gaza returned to being a blockaded hellhole that can't develop as Hamas are there and you just guarantee another generation of Hamas agents.
You're advocating the latter, whether you understand it or not. Give peace a chance, vanquish Hamas then develop Gaza without them.
Are you seriously saying that by destroying Rafah Hamas will never start again? When has this EVER happened?
Mark my words, destroying Rafah will set peace back. The US knows it. The UK knows it. Apparently you don’t.
I didn't say destroy Rafah, I said destroy Hamas.
If Hamas are in Rafah then that means going after them there, and anywhere else they hide.
When has this ever happened? I've given you examples: Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan etc.
Keep on fighting until there's an unconditional surrender and then rebuild. No ceasefire, complete and unconditional surrender.
The Nazis did not disappear when a German city was bombed. What you are talking about is entirely different.
Israel are proposing to destroy and flatten a settlement which nobody believes will actually destroy Hamas. The ends do not justify the means.
It is legitimately staggering to have you sit here and not even think about the women and children you are sending to death.
What you will do, is whether you destroy Hamas or not, create a new generation of people with far less care for obliterating Israel. You will create another war with your actions.
The US knows it. The UK knows it. Enough is enough. Israel are warmongering nutjobs who have to be stopped.
Perhaps @BartholomewRoberts would like to explain how killing civilians trying to get food to stop them from starving is destroying Hamas? Is it possible that Israel are not as "good" as they appear?
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
The last thing Ukraine needs right now is to be likened to Israel.
Russia is not an insurgent terrorist organisation, it’s a vast nation state that fancies having a bit of its neighbours. Ukraine is not a nuclear armed regional hegemon, with settlements encroaching on Russian land and an ultra-nationalist populist leader in power.
Israel has its justifications for retaliating after 7th October but the situation is much less black and white than Ukraine where there is a good guy and a bad guy and very little need for nuance.
Israel is the good guy, it is a free democracy that has been attacked.
Hamas are the bad guys. They are evil, authoritarian terrorists.
The refusal to acknowledge Israel as the good guy here stems from antisemitism in my eyes. Anyone else would absolutely be acknowledged unequivocally as the good guy.
Israel is not the good guy. Not with the current government.
Are they better than Hamas, clearly. But it is quite clear why you see it as you do when you are so blinded to Israel's many flaws, probable war crimes and the fact you are quite happy to see thousands of people killed when it probably won't even work.
Israel are the good guy, even with the current government.
Disliking a democratic government doesn't make them the bad guy.
Thousands of people die in war, its sad but its reality, pretending otherwise is just kidding yourself. A "ceasefire" which leads to Palestine being blockaded once more is the worst thing that can happen.
Israel was the wronged party in October. But they have deliberately attacked civilian targets repeatedly while Ukraine have gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties (unlike Russia).
And Israel under Netanyahu and his far right coalition partners (and before, frankly) was behaving as a bully across the West Bank for years.
I was fiercely supportive of Israel in the weeks after the start of the war despite my distaste for their leadership, but they have really tested everyone’s tolerance since, in a way Ukraine has never done.
As for anti-semitism, I agree there is a disproportionate focus by some particularly on the left on the Israel Palestine conflict and AS is definitely part of it, but believing Israel cannot be criticised is a form of othering too.
Israel had the good will of virtually everyone who isn't a nutjob. The fact they've managed to piss everyone off including the US shows just had badly they have got it wrong. They had a lot of good will on their side which they've pissed away with their idiotic actions.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
The last thing Ukraine needs right now is to be likened to Israel.
Russia is not an insurgent terrorist organisation, it’s a vast nation state that fancies having a bit of its neighbours. Ukraine is not a nuclear armed regional hegemon, with settlements encroaching on Russian land and an ultra-nationalist populist leader in power.
Israel has its justifications for retaliating after 7th October but the situation is much less black and white than Ukraine where there is a good guy and a bad guy and very little need for nuance.
Israel is the good guy, it is a free democracy that has been attacked.
Hamas are the bad guys. They are evil, authoritarian terrorists.
The refusal to acknowledge Israel as the good guy here stems from antisemitism in my eyes. Anyone else would absolutely be acknowledged unequivocally as the good guy.
Don't you dare imply that I am being anti-Semitic. You really are in the pits.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
There was ALREADY a war.
Yes I know, Israel was attacked in the past, however there was a ceasefire which Hamas broke - again.
Getting another ceasefire without destroying Hamas will just guarantee another war down the line. Do you want another war down the line? I don't.
If you don’t want another war it’s an odd decision to create a whole generation of Hamas agents who would love to start another one. Your strategy is self-defeating.
The way to avoid creating a whole generation of Hamas agents is to 100% destroy Hamas today, then afterwards have a post-Hamas reconstruction and development like the Marshal plan in Germany.
Stick and carrot. Its worked before and can work again.
Allow Hamas to survive this, have a meaningless "ceasefire" then have Gaza returned to being a blockaded hellhole that can't develop as Hamas are there and you just guarantee another generation of Hamas agents.
You're advocating the latter, whether you understand it or not. Give peace a chance, vanquish Hamas then develop Gaza without them.
Are you seriously saying that by destroying Rafah Hamas will never start again? When has this EVER happened?
Mark my words, destroying Rafah will set peace back. The US knows it. The UK knows it. Apparently you don’t.
I didn't say destroy Rafah, I said destroy Hamas.
If Hamas are in Rafah then that means going after them there, and anywhere else they hide.
When has this ever happened? I've given you examples: Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan etc.
Keep on fighting until there's an unconditional surrender and then rebuild. No ceasefire, complete and unconditional surrender.
The Nazis did not disappear when a German city was bombed. What you are talking about is entirely different.
Israel are proposing to destroy and flatten a settlement which nobody believes will actually destroy Hamas. The ends do not justify the means.
It is legitimately staggering to have you sit here and not even think about the women and children you are sending to death.
What you will do, is whether you destroy Hamas or not, create a new generation of people with far less care for obliterating Israel. You will create another war with your actions.
The US knows it. The UK knows it. Enough is enough. Israel are warmongering nutjobs who have to be stopped.
Which war followed the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
I don't want to see innocents killed and Israel has bent over backwards to minimise civilian casualties, which I completely support. If they were bombing indiscriminately as they've been falsely accused of there'd be over a million dead by now rather than merely tens of thousands.
Israel should continue to be proportionate but also enforce its goals until Hamas are completely and utterly destroyed or unconditionally surrender.
Which war followed the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
I don't want to see innocents killed and Israel has bent over backwards to minimise civilian casualties, which I completely support. If they were bombing indiscriminately as they've been falsely accused of there'd be over a million dead by now rather than merely tens of thousands.
Israel should continue to be proportionate but also enforce its goals until Hamas are completely and utterly destroyed or unconditionally surrender.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
The last thing Ukraine needs right now is to be likened to Israel.
Russia is not an insurgent terrorist organisation, it’s a vast nation state that fancies having a bit of its neighbours. Ukraine is not a nuclear armed regional hegemon, with settlements encroaching on Russian land and an ultra-nationalist populist leader in power.
Israel has its justifications for retaliating after 7th October but the situation is much less black and white than Ukraine where there is a good guy and a bad guy and very little need for nuance.
Israel is the good guy, it is a free democracy that has been attacked.
Hamas are the bad guys. They are evil, authoritarian terrorists.
The refusal to acknowledge Israel as the good guy here stems from antisemitism in my eyes. Anyone else would absolutely be acknowledged unequivocally as the good guy.
Don't you dare imply that I am being anti-Semitic. You really are in the pits.
If the shoe fits. 🤷♂️
Why else do you deny Israel the right to self-defence and to destroy Hamas wherever they may be?
Every other nation has that right, why don't Israel?
Which war followed the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
I don't want to see innocents killed and Israel has bent over backwards to minimise civilian casualties, which I completely support. If they were bombing indiscriminately as they've been falsely accused of there'd be over a million dead by now rather than merely tens of thousands.
Israel should continue to be proportionate but also enforce its goals until Hamas are completely and utterly destroyed or unconditionally surrender.
You are a lost cause.
Why are civilian casualties so low if Israel aren't doing so?
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
The last thing Ukraine needs right now is to be likened to Israel.
Russia is not an insurgent terrorist organisation, it’s a vast nation state that fancies having a bit of its neighbours. Ukraine is not a nuclear armed regional hegemon, with settlements encroaching on Russian land and an ultra-nationalist populist leader in power.
Israel has its justifications for retaliating after 7th October but the situation is much less black and white than Ukraine where there is a good guy and a bad guy and very little need for nuance.
Israel is the good guy, it is a free democracy that has been attacked.
Hamas are the bad guys. They are evil, authoritarian terrorists.
The refusal to acknowledge Israel as the good guy here stems from antisemitism in my eyes. Anyone else would absolutely be acknowledged unequivocally as the good guy.
Israel is not the good guy. Not with the current government.
Are they better than Hamas, clearly. But it is quite clear why you see it as you do when you are so blinded to Israel's many flaws, probable war crimes and the fact you are quite happy to see thousands of people killed when it probably won't even work.
Israel are the good guy, even with the current government.
No They aren't they are committing a plausible genocide
Israel was the wronged party in October. But they have deliberately attacked civilian targets repeatedly while Ukraine have gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties (unlike Russia).
And Israel under Netanyahu and his far right coalition partners (and before, frankly) was behaving as a bully across the West Bank for years.
I was fiercely supportive of Israel in the weeks after the start of the war despite my distaste for their leadership, but they have really tested everyone’s tolerance since, in a way Ukraine has never done.
As for anti-semitism, I agree there is a disproportionate focus by some particularly on the left on the Israel Palestine conflict and AS is definitely part of it, but believing Israel cannot be criticised is a form of othering too.
Israel had the good will of virtually everyone who isn't a nutjob. The fact they've managed to piss everyone off including the US shows just had badly they have got it wrong. They had a lot of good will on their side which they've pissed away with their idiotic actions.
They must think we are stupid.
You are, to be frank.
Hamas need to be destroyed, even you in theory acknowledge this, but you refuse to provide any alternative way to do so beyond what Israel are doing.
You bemoan the casualties of war, but don't provide any practical alternative. That is to be frank stupid.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
There was ALREADY a war.
Yes I know, Israel was attacked in the past, however there was a ceasefire which Hamas broke - again.
Getting another ceasefire without destroying Hamas will just guarantee another war down the line. Do you want another war down the line? I don't.
If you don’t want another war it’s an odd decision to create a whole generation of Hamas agents who would love to start another one. Your strategy is self-defeating.
Hamas attacked, and in so doing declared war on Israel. Israel responded.
Hamas and Israel want this war (votes in the HoC notwithstanding).
Would you rather Israel had done nothing after October 7th. Would it have been politically possible to do nothing.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
There was ALREADY a war.
Yes I know, Israel was attacked in the past, however there was a ceasefire which Hamas broke - again.
Getting another ceasefire without destroying Hamas will just guarantee another war down the line. Do you want another war down the line? I don't.
If you don’t want another war it’s an odd decision to create a whole generation of Hamas agents who would love to start another one. Your strategy is self-defeating.
The way to avoid creating a whole generation of Hamas agents is to 100% destroy Hamas today, then afterwards have a post-Hamas reconstruction and development like the Marshal plan in Germany.
Stick and carrot. Its worked before and can work again.
Allow Hamas to survive this, have a meaningless "ceasefire" then have Gaza returned to being a blockaded hellhole that can't develop as Hamas are there and you just guarantee another generation of Hamas agents.
You're advocating the latter, whether you understand it or not. Give peace a chance, vanquish Hamas then develop Gaza without them.
Are you seriously saying that by destroying Rafah Hamas will never start again? When has this EVER happened?
Mark my words, destroying Rafah will set peace back. The US knows it. The UK knows it. Apparently you don’t.
Israel was the wronged party in October. But they have deliberately attacked civilian targets repeatedly while Ukraine have gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties (unlike Russia).
And Israel under Netanyahu and his far right coalition partners (and before, frankly) was behaving as a bully across the West Bank for years.
I was fiercely supportive of Israel in the weeks after the start of the war despite my distaste for their leadership, but they have really tested everyone’s tolerance since, in a way Ukraine has never done.
As for anti-semitism, I agree there is a disproportionate focus by some particularly on the left on the Israel Palestine conflict and AS is definitely part of it, but believing Israel cannot be criticised is a form of othering too.
Israel had the good will of virtually everyone who isn't a nutjob. The fact they've managed to piss everyone off including the US shows just had badly they have got it wrong. They had a lot of good will on their side which they've pissed away with their idiotic actions.
They must think we are stupid.
You are, to be frank.
Hamas need to be destroyed, even you in theory acknowledge this, but you refuse to provide any alternative way to do so beyond what Israel are doing.
You bemoan the casualties of war, but don't provide any practical alternative. That is to be frank stupid.
If there is one thing we have learnt it is that you do not destroy terrorist organizations with violence. Israel have ensured hamas recruits for decades to come.
Hamas attacked, and in so doing declared war on Israel. Israel responded.
Hamas and Israel want this war (votes in the HoC notwithstanding).
Would you rather Israel had done nothing after October 7th. Would it have been politically possible to do nothing.
I supported Israel entirely in their response up until when they pissed away the good will they had with their idiotic actions re. Rafah. Same as how the US and UK feel. I am not alone in this.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
There was ALREADY a war.
Yes I know, Israel was attacked in the past, however there was a ceasefire which Hamas broke - again.
Getting another ceasefire without destroying Hamas will just guarantee another war down the line. Do you want another war down the line? I don't.
If you don’t want another war it’s an odd decision to create a whole generation of Hamas agents who would love to start another one. Your strategy is self-defeating.
The way to avoid creating a whole generation of Hamas agents is to 100% destroy Hamas today, then afterwards have a post-Hamas reconstruction and development like the Marshal plan in Germany.
Stick and carrot. Its worked before and can work again.
Allow Hamas to survive this, have a meaningless "ceasefire" then have Gaza returned to being a blockaded hellhole that can't develop as Hamas are there and you just guarantee another generation of Hamas agents.
You're advocating the latter, whether you understand it or not. Give peace a chance, vanquish Hamas then develop Gaza without them.
Are you seriously saying that by destroying Rafah Hamas will never start again? When has this EVER happened?
Mark my words, destroying Rafah will set peace back. The US knows it. The UK knows it. Apparently you don’t.
What peace. The one that existed on October 6th?
Hamas have obviously set peace back far more than Israel. But Israel are choosing to set it back yet further.
What symbols do you believe in? What items mean things to you?
I quite like those big ones you bang together that make that metallic noise.
Other than that I think they are overrated. Would never desecrate a war memorial though as they generally remember working class men who lost their lives fighting fascism
Israel was the wronged party in October. But they have deliberately attacked civilian targets repeatedly while Ukraine have gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties (unlike Russia).
And Israel under Netanyahu and his far right coalition partners (and before, frankly) was behaving as a bully across the West Bank for years.
I was fiercely supportive of Israel in the weeks after the start of the war despite my distaste for their leadership, but they have really tested everyone’s tolerance since, in a way Ukraine has never done.
As for anti-semitism, I agree there is a disproportionate focus by some particularly on the left on the Israel Palestine conflict and AS is definitely part of it, but believing Israel cannot be criticised is a form of othering too.
Israel had the good will of virtually everyone who isn't a nutjob. The fact they've managed to piss everyone off including the US shows just had badly they have got it wrong. They had a lot of good will on their side which they've pissed away with their idiotic actions.
They must think we are stupid.
You are, to be frank.
Hamas need to be destroyed, even you in theory acknowledge this, but you refuse to provide any alternative way to do so beyond what Israel are doing.
You bemoan the casualties of war, but don't provide any practical alternative. That is to be frank stupid.
If there is one thing we have learnt it is that you do not destroy terrorist organizations with violence. Israel have ensured hamas recruits for decades to come.
You absolutely can destroy terrorist organisations with violence, if that is what it takes. Plenty of examples of them being vanquished all over the globe. See for instance the Tamil Tigers and many, many, many more.
Key is to use the window created by destroying them to then provide a better alternative, but destroying them has to come first.
A ceasefire that sees Hamas retain Gaza and Gaza revert back to being blockaded as a result will guarantee Hamas recruits for decades to come.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
There was ALREADY a war.
Yes I know, Israel was attacked in the past, however there was a ceasefire which Hamas broke - again.
Getting another ceasefire without destroying Hamas will just guarantee another war down the line. Do you want another war down the line? I don't.
If you don’t want another war it’s an odd decision to create a whole generation of Hamas agents who would love to start another one. Your strategy is self-defeating.
The way to avoid creating a whole generation of Hamas agents is to 100% destroy Hamas today, then afterwards have a post-Hamas reconstruction and development like the Marshal plan in Germany.
Stick and carrot. Its worked before and can work again.
Allow Hamas to survive this, have a meaningless "ceasefire" then have Gaza returned to being a blockaded hellhole that can't develop as Hamas are there and you just guarantee another generation of Hamas agents.
You're advocating the latter, whether you understand it or not. Give peace a chance, vanquish Hamas then develop Gaza without them.
Are you seriously saying that by destroying Rafah Hamas will never start again? When has this EVER happened?
Mark my words, destroying Rafah will set peace back. The US knows it. The UK knows it. Apparently you don’t.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
There was ALREADY a war.
Yes I know, Israel was attacked in the past, however there was a ceasefire which Hamas broke - again.
Getting another ceasefire without destroying Hamas will just guarantee another war down the line. Do you want another war down the line? I don't.
If you don’t want another war it’s an odd decision to create a whole generation of Hamas agents who would love to start another one. Your strategy is self-defeating.
The way to avoid creating a whole generation of Hamas agents is to 100% destroy Hamas today, then afterwards have a post-Hamas reconstruction and development like the Marshal plan in Germany.
Stick and carrot. Its worked before and can work again.
Allow Hamas to survive this, have a meaningless "ceasefire" then have Gaza returned to being a blockaded hellhole that can't develop as Hamas are there and you just guarantee another generation of Hamas agents.
You're advocating the latter, whether you understand it or not. Give peace a chance, vanquish Hamas then develop Gaza without them.
Are you seriously saying that by destroying Rafah Hamas will never start again? When has this EVER happened?
Mark my words, destroying Rafah will set peace back. The US knows it. The UK knows it. Apparently you don’t.
What peace. The one that existed on October 6th?
Hamas have obviously set peace back far more than Israel. But Israel are choosing to set it back yet further.
Peace is what happens after the war is won, not before. 🤦♂️
A ceasefire that sees Gaza blockaded is not peace.
Hamas attacked, and in so doing declared war on Israel. Israel responded.
Hamas and Israel want this war (votes in the HoC notwithstanding).
Would you rather Israel had done nothing after October 7th. Would it have been politically possible to do nothing.
I supported Israel entirely in their response up until when they pissed away the good will they had with their idiotic actions re. Rafah. Same as how the US and UK feel. I am not alone in this.
No indeed but that is not a feasible way of looking at the conflict.
When would you have stopped if you were Israel. Plenty were out on the streets on October 8th.
The first mention of the war or any activity by any party by Oxfam (ie ignoring those by Hamas on October 7th) was on October 13th. Calling for a ceasefire.
Hamas attacked, and in so doing declared war on Israel. Israel responded.
Hamas and Israel want this war (votes in the HoC notwithstanding).
Would you rather Israel had done nothing after October 7th. Would it have been politically possible to do nothing.
I supported Israel entirely in their response up until when they pissed away the good will they had with their idiotic actions re. Rafah. Same as how the US and UK feel. I am not alone in this.
No indeed but that is not a feasible way of looking at the conflict.
When would you have stopped if you were Israel. Plenty were out on the streets on October 8th.
The first mention of the war or any activity by any party by Oxfam (ie ignoring those by Hamas on October 7th) was on October 13th. Calling for a ceasefire.
But lumping me in with these people is dishonest and frankly shows up anyone to be a bit silly.
There have been nutjobs advocating a ceasefire since day one, I was not one of those people. I am just agreeing with where the UK Government and US Government are now, which is that what Israel intends to do next is idiotic, self-defeating and won't solve any problems.
I would have stopped now, as the US and UK have advocated for.
Do you think killing civilians trying to get food is acceptable?
Hamas attacked, and in so doing declared war on Israel. Israel responded.
Hamas and Israel want this war (votes in the HoC notwithstanding).
Would you rather Israel had done nothing after October 7th. Would it have been politically possible to do nothing.
I supported Israel entirely in their response up until when they pissed away the good will they had with their idiotic actions re. Rafah. Same as how the US and UK feel. I am not alone in this.
No indeed but that is not a feasible way of looking at the conflict.
When would you have stopped if you were Israel. Plenty were out on the streets on October 8th.
The first mention of the war or any activity by any party by Oxfam (ie ignoring those by Hamas on October 7th) was on October 13th. Calling for a ceasefire.
But lumping me in with these people is dishonest and frankly shows up anyone to be a bit silly.
There have been nutjobs advocating a ceasefire since day one, I was not one of those people. I am just agreeing with where the UK Government and US Government are now, which is that what Israel intends to do next is idiotic, self-defeating and won't solve any problems.
I would have stopped now, as the US and UK have advocated for.
Do you think killing civilians trying to get food is acceptable?
If there is a ceasefire that sees Hamas survive and Gaza goes back to being blockaded then what happens next?
No chance of peace, no chance of development, no chance of reconstruction. You're condemning Gaza to decades more misery. What a tragedy that would be.
To answer your question, deliberately killing civilians is never OK. Only one side in my view has done that.
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
There needs to be a Marshal Plan style redevelopment of Gaza. Stuff their faces with gold and ensure that people are profitably and gainfully employed so don't regress back into terrorism.
If Israel don't destroy Hamas, and Hamas survive this and Gaza is blockaded once more, that can't happen.
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Israel will create a MUCH worse version of Hamas.
You cannot destroy Hamas, nobody thinks this is at all tangible, not even I think, Israel. The people left are going to want to either join Hamas or be more willing to support their aims. They won't stop thinking it because they killed some others. They can see what is happening.
Perhaps @BartholomewRoberts would like to explain how killing civilians trying to get food to stop them from starving is destroying Hamas? Is it possible that Israel are not as "good" as they appear?
If you look at October 7th, then the 'Palestinians' are not as good as they appear.
If you decouple Hamas from the Palestinians, then you also need to decouple 'Israelis' from the actions of the Netanyahu government.
What is happening is awful and tragic, and Netanyahu is going way too far; so far, in fact, it imperils the existence of the Israeli state by removing much of the worldwide support that has helped it for seven decades. Some may celebrate the end of the Israeli state; I fear that it would be very bad for the worldwide Jewish community. And that's Bibi's madness.
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Israel will create a MUCH worse version of Hamas.
You cannot destroy Hamas, nobody thinks this is at all tangible, not even I think, Israel. The people left are going to want to either join Hamas or be more willing to support their aims. They won't stop thinking it because they killed some others. They can see what is happening.
Why can't you destroy Hamas?
Do you think Sri Lanka couldn't destroy the Tamil Tigers?
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Israel will create a MUCH worse version of Hamas.
You cannot destroy Hamas, nobody thinks this is at all tangible, not even I think, Israel. The people left are going to want to either join Hamas or be more willing to support their aims. They won't stop thinking it because they killed some others. They can see what is happening.
What is a 'much worse version of Hamas'?
It's not as though Hamas are nice and cuddly; as October 7th shows, they want to kill as many Jews as possible.
Perhaps @BartholomewRoberts would like to explain how killing civilians trying to get food to stop them from starving is destroying Hamas? Is it possible that Israel are not as "good" as they appear?
If you look at October 7th, then the 'Palestinians' are not as good as they appear.
If you decouple Hamas from the Palestinians, then you also need to decouple 'Israelis' from the actions of the Netanyahu government.
What is happening is awful and tragic, and Netanyahu is going way too far; so far, in fact, it imperils the existence of the Israeli state by removing much of the worldwide support that has helped it for seven decades. Some may celebrate the end of the Israeli state; I fear that it would be very bad for the worldwide Jewish community. And that's Bibi's madness.
Palestinians are absolutely not good at all! They support Hamas, well many of them do.
I happen to think at this point the Palestinian people are less bad than the Israeli Government. But Hamas are the worst, clearly.
I do not celebrate the end of Israel at all, I want them around as a viable state for good, as they deserve. But their leadership is damaging that. Not me.
Israel was the wronged party in October. But they have deliberately attacked civilian targets repeatedly while Ukraine have gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties (unlike Russia).
And Israel under Netanyahu and his far right coalition partners (and before, frankly) was behaving as a bully across the West Bank for years.
I was fiercely supportive of Israel in the weeks after the start of the war despite my distaste for their leadership, but they have really tested everyone’s tolerance since, in a way Ukraine has never done.
As for anti-semitism, I agree there is a disproportionate focus by some particularly on the left on the Israel Palestine conflict and AS is definitely part of it, but believing Israel cannot be criticised is a form of othering too.
Israel had the good will of virtually everyone who isn't a nutjob. The fact they've managed to piss everyone off including the US shows just had badly they have got it wrong. They had a lot of good will on their side which they've pissed away with their idiotic actions.
They must think we are stupid.
You are, to be frank.
Hamas need to be destroyed, even you in theory acknowledge this, but you refuse to provide any alternative way to do so beyond what Israel are doing.
You bemoan the casualties of war, but don't provide any practical alternative. That is to be frank stupid.
If there is one thing we have learnt it is that you do not destroy terrorist organizations with violence. Israel have ensured hamas recruits for decades to come.
You absolutely can destroy terrorist organisations with violence, if that is what it takes. Plenty of examples of them being vanquished all over the globe. See for instance the Tamil Tigers and many, many, many more.
Key is to use the window created by destroying them to then provide a better alternative, but destroying them has to come first.
A ceasefire that sees Hamas retain Gaza and Gaza revert back to being blockaded as a result will guarantee Hamas recruits for decades to come.
Like the IDF the Sri Lankan army killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians in the process. Many are still held in camps. Is it a lasting peace? I'm not sure. And Western governments were far more active in demanding a ceasefire in this case, of course.
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Israel will create a MUCH worse version of Hamas.
You cannot destroy Hamas, nobody thinks this is at all tangible, not even I think, Israel. The people left are going to want to either join Hamas or be more willing to support their aims. They won't stop thinking it because they killed some others. They can see what is happening.
What is a 'much worse version of Hamas'?
It's not as though Hamas are nice and cuddly; as October 7th shows, they want to kill as many Jews as possible.
A much larger group that will not be willing to ever negotiate ever again. The amount of deaths, destruction and suffering will only increase.
Hamas are vile, what will come next will be worse.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
There was ALREADY a war.
Yes I know, Israel was attacked in the past, however there was a ceasefire which Hamas broke - again.
Getting another ceasefire without destroying Hamas will just guarantee another war down the line. Do you want another war down the line? I don't.
If you don’t want another war it’s an odd decision to create a whole generation of Hamas agents who would love to start another one. Your strategy is self-defeating.
The way to avoid creating a whole generation of Hamas agents is to 100% destroy Hamas today, then afterwards have a post-Hamas reconstruction and development like the Marshal plan in Germany.
Stick and carrot. Its worked before and can work again.
Allow Hamas to survive this, have a meaningless "ceasefire" then have Gaza returned to being a blockaded hellhole that can't develop as Hamas are there and you just guarantee another generation of Hamas agents.
You're advocating the latter, whether you understand it or not. Give peace a chance, vanquish Hamas then develop Gaza without them.
Are you seriously saying that by destroying Rafah Hamas will never start again? When has this EVER happened?
Mark my words, destroying Rafah will set peace back. The US knows it. The UK knows it. Apparently you don’t.
I didn't say destroy Rafah, I said destroy Hamas.
If Hamas are in Rafah then that means going after them there, and anywhere else they hide.
When has this ever happened? I've given you examples: Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan etc.
Keep on fighting until there's an unconditional surrender and then rebuild. No ceasefire, complete and unconditional surrender.
The Nazis did not disappear when a German city was bombed. What you are talking about is entirely different.
Israel are proposing to destroy and flatten a settlement which nobody believes will actually destroy Hamas. The ends do not justify the means.
It is legitimately staggering to have you sit here and not even think about the women and children you are sending to death.
What you will do, is whether you destroy Hamas or not, create a new generation of people with far less care for obliterating Israel. You will create another war with your actions.
The US knows it. The UK knows it. Enough is enough. Israel are warmongering nutjobs who have to be stopped.
Even Xi and Putin want a ceasefire in Gaza and Israeli troops to withdraw. Currently Netanyahu is therefore relatively isolated internationally, his only significant overseas supporter at present is Milei of Argentina and to a lesser extent Rishi.
Netanyahu therefore really wants a Trump victory in November to get the US firmly back on his side
Israel was the wronged party in October. But they have deliberately attacked civilian targets repeatedly while Ukraine have gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties (unlike Russia).
And Israel under Netanyahu and his far right coalition partners (and before, frankly) was behaving as a bully across the West Bank for years.
I was fiercely supportive of Israel in the weeks after the start of the war despite my distaste for their leadership, but they have really tested everyone’s tolerance since, in a way Ukraine has never done.
As for anti-semitism, I agree there is a disproportionate focus by some particularly on the left on the Israel Palestine conflict and AS is definitely part of it, but believing Israel cannot be criticised is a form of othering too.
Israel had the good will of virtually everyone who isn't a nutjob. The fact they've managed to piss everyone off including the US shows just had badly they have got it wrong. They had a lot of good will on their side which they've pissed away with their idiotic actions.
They must think we are stupid.
You are, to be frank.
Hamas need to be destroyed, even you in theory acknowledge this, but you refuse to provide any alternative way to do so beyond what Israel are doing.
You bemoan the casualties of war, but don't provide any practical alternative. That is to be frank stupid.
If there is one thing we have learnt it is that you do not destroy terrorist organizations with violence. Israel have ensured hamas recruits for decades to come.
You absolutely can destroy terrorist organisations with violence, if that is what it takes. Plenty of examples of them being vanquished all over the globe. See for instance the Tamil Tigers and many, many, many more.
Key is to use the window created by destroying them to then provide a better alternative, but destroying them has to come first.
A ceasefire that sees Hamas retain Gaza and Gaza revert back to being blockaded as a result will guarantee Hamas recruits for decades to come.
Like the IDF the Sri Lankan army killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians in the process. Many are still held in camps. Is it a lasting peace? I'm not sure. And Western governments were far more active in demanding a ceasefire in this case, of course.
Yes and those calling for a ceasefire need to be told to mind their own business and the war must continue until there is unconditional surrender. A ceasefire that sees Gaza go back to being blockaded would be the worst thing to happen.
Which is how the Tamils were destroyed. The last remaining fighters surrendered.
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Israel will create a MUCH worse version of Hamas.
You cannot destroy Hamas, nobody thinks this is at all tangible, not even I think, Israel. The people left are going to want to either join Hamas or be more willing to support their aims. They won't stop thinking it because they killed some others. They can see what is happening.
Why can't you destroy Hamas?
Do you think Sri Lanka couldn't destroy the Tamil Tigers?
Are you honestly saying that if "Hamas" is destroyed, there will be nobody left in Palestine that supports their aims or sympathises with them? Unless you want to destroy Palestine completely, then I do not see it. Of course, that is what their leadership will happily do with you as their accomplice. It won't stop until they destroy Palestine completely.
I think it is time to go and have a nice hot bath and relax in bed with a book, before this forum becomes any more nasty
For me, Mrs C has some mutton stew on the stove, and I am just about to open some Cotes de Rhone and return to a rather interesting book on early nineteenth century evolutionary thought in Edinburgh. Far more constructive.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
There was ALREADY a war.
Yes I know, Israel was attacked in the past, however there was a ceasefire which Hamas broke - again.
Getting another ceasefire without destroying Hamas will just guarantee another war down the line. Do you want another war down the line? I don't.
If you don’t want another war it’s an odd decision to create a whole generation of Hamas agents who would love to start another one. Your strategy is self-defeating.
The way to avoid creating a whole generation of Hamas agents is to 100% destroy Hamas today, then afterwards have a post-Hamas reconstruction and development like the Marshal plan in Germany.
Stick and carrot. Its worked before and can work again.
Allow Hamas to survive this, have a meaningless "ceasefire" then have Gaza returned to being a blockaded hellhole that can't develop as Hamas are there and you just guarantee another generation of Hamas agents.
You're advocating the latter, whether you understand it or not. Give peace a chance, vanquish Hamas then develop Gaza without them.
Are you seriously saying that by destroying Rafah Hamas will never start again? When has this EVER happened?
Mark my words, destroying Rafah will set peace back. The US knows it. The UK knows it. Apparently you don’t.
I didn't say destroy Rafah, I said destroy Hamas.
If Hamas are in Rafah then that means going after them there, and anywhere else they hide.
When has this ever happened? I've given you examples: Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan etc.
Keep on fighting until there's an unconditional surrender and then rebuild. No ceasefire, complete and unconditional surrender.
The Nazis did not disappear when a German city was bombed. What you are talking about is entirely different.
Israel are proposing to destroy and flatten a settlement which nobody believes will actually destroy Hamas. The ends do not justify the means.
It is legitimately staggering to have you sit here and not even think about the women and children you are sending to death.
What you will do, is whether you destroy Hamas or not, create a new generation of people with far less care for obliterating Israel. You will create another war with your actions.
The US knows it. The UK knows it. Enough is enough. Israel are warmongering nutjobs who have to be stopped.
Even Xi and Putin want a ceasefire in Gaza and Israeli troops to withdraw. Currently Netanyahu is therefore relatively isolated internationally, his only significant overseas supporter at present is Milei of Argentina and to a lesser extent Rishi.
Netanyahu therefore really wants a Trump victory in November to get the US firmly back on his side
Well if Xi and Putin want it, then it must happen. 🤦♂️
It doesn't matter if Israel is totally isolated, they can and should press on until the enemy surrenders unconditionally. Then the war is won and peace can come afterwards, not before.
I am very happy to discuss these matters but I would kindly ask you to remove the anti-Semitic banner from me which you've used in an attempt to shut down what I am saying.
I am not anti-Semitic, I support Israel's right to exist. I am not a nutjob that has called for a ceasefire from day one or goes on marches in favour of Hamas.
Please do not lump me in with those people. If you continue I'll put you on ignore.
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Depends where the Gazans end up. There is a body of thought on the pro Nehtanyahu side that sees them expunged and once that happens they will never return.
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Israel will create a MUCH worse version of Hamas.
You cannot destroy Hamas, nobody thinks this is at all tangible, not even I think, Israel. The people left are going to want to either join Hamas or be more willing to support their aims. They won't stop thinking it because they killed some others. They can see what is happening.
What is a 'much worse version of Hamas'?
It's not as though Hamas are nice and cuddly; as October 7th shows, they want to kill as many Jews as possible.
A much larger group that will not be willing to ever negotiate ever again. The amount of deaths, destruction and suffering will only increase.
Hamas are vile, what will come next will be worse.
What 'negotiation' prevented October 7th?
Hamas can't get any worse; their aims are as obvious as they are sick. What *may* change is any restraint that their backers put on them; but that's a different thing.
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Israel will create a MUCH worse version of Hamas.
You cannot destroy Hamas, nobody thinks this is at all tangible, not even I think, Israel. The people left are going to want to either join Hamas or be more willing to support their aims. They won't stop thinking it because they killed some others. They can see what is happening.
Why can't you destroy Hamas?
Do you think Sri Lanka couldn't destroy the Tamil Tigers?
Are you honestly saying that if "Hamas" is destroyed, there will be nobody left in Palestine that supports their aims or sympathises with them? Unless you want to destroy Palestine completely, then I do not see it. Of course, that is what their leadership will happily do with you as their accomplice. It won't stop until they destroy Palestine completely.
If you revert back to Gaza being blockaded then you can guarantee misery for Palestinians and that they'll continue to support Hamas.
I'm calling for a twin track approach. First destroy Hamas, second have a Marshal Plan style development that sees people have a happy, healthy, developed and free future post-Hamas.
You pointedly ignore the second element. But the second element can only happen if the first is done first.
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Israel will create a MUCH worse version of Hamas.
You cannot destroy Hamas, nobody thinks this is at all tangible, not even I think, Israel. The people left are going to want to either join Hamas or be more willing to support their aims. They won't stop thinking it because they killed some others. They can see what is happening.
What is a 'much worse version of Hamas'?
It's not as though Hamas are nice and cuddly; as October 7th shows, they want to kill as many Jews as possible.
A much larger group that will not be willing to ever negotiate ever again. The amount of deaths, destruction and suffering will only increase.
Hamas are vile, what will come next will be worse.
What 'negotiation' prevented October 7th?
Hamas can't get any worse; their aims are as obvious as they are sick. What *may* change is any restraint that their backers put on them; but that's a different thing.
They can get a lot worse. They will have a lot more supporters and will have a lot more destruction and death the next iteration can cause.
Hamas are vile absolutely - but Israel are not being intelligent by flattening them and assuming nothing will appear in its place.
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Israel will create a MUCH worse version of Hamas.
You cannot destroy Hamas, nobody thinks this is at all tangible, not even I think, Israel. The people left are going to want to either join Hamas or be more willing to support their aims. They won't stop thinking it because they killed some others. They can see what is happening.
Why can't you destroy Hamas?
Do you think Sri Lanka couldn't destroy the Tamil Tigers?
Geography.
The Tamil Tigers were on the island of Sri Lanka, and there is a load of sea before you get to anywhere else. With effort, the Sri Lanka state could control all the island and be safe.
The Nazis were in the government of Germany. With effort, the allies could occupy that land and squeeze the Nazis out of existence.
The leadership of Hamas is largely based in Qatar. Israel could turn Gaza into a pile of rubble, and Hamas still wouldn't be destroyed and Israel still wouldn't be safe.
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Israel will create a MUCH worse version of Hamas.
You cannot destroy Hamas, nobody thinks this is at all tangible, not even I think, Israel. The people left are going to want to either join Hamas or be more willing to support their aims. They won't stop thinking it because they killed some others. They can see what is happening.
Why can't you destroy Hamas?
Do you think Sri Lanka couldn't destroy the Tamil Tigers?
Are you honestly saying that if "Hamas" is destroyed, there will be nobody left in Palestine that supports their aims or sympathises with them? Unless you want to destroy Palestine completely, then I do not see it. Of course, that is what their leadership will happily do with you as their accomplice. It won't stop until they destroy Palestine completely.
If you revert back to Gaza being blockaded then you can guarantee misery for Palestinians and that they'll continue to support Hamas.
I'm calling for a twin track approach. First destroy Hamas, second have a Marshal Plan style development that sees people have a happy, healthy, developed and free future post-Hamas.
You pointedly ignore the second element. But the second element can only happen if the first is done first.
After destroying a settlement, do you honestly think these people are going to be willing to countenance anything to do with Israel ever again?
The playwright Victor I. Cazares is 3 months into a protest during which he refuses to take his daily HIV medicine until the Broadway theater he works for officially condemns Israel.
He is willing to risk contracting AIDS for a ceasefire
Most of the leadership is in other countries . You might reduce their ability to send rockets into Israel but you’re not going to eliminate all the fighters or their ideology .
Israel seems to be using a collective punishment and making life so horrific that they hope Gazans will turn against Hamas .
They have essentially bet everything on that scenario . What happens if anger and revenge become the response ?
It remains my belief that only giving the Palestinians realistic hope for a better future will end the cycle of violence .
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Israel will create a MUCH worse version of Hamas.
You cannot destroy Hamas, nobody thinks this is at all tangible, not even I think, Israel. The people left are going to want to either join Hamas or be more willing to support their aims. They won't stop thinking it because they killed some others. They can see what is happening.
Why can't you destroy Hamas?
Do you think Sri Lanka couldn't destroy the Tamil Tigers?
Geography.
The Tamil Tigers were on the island of Sri Lanka, and there is a load of sea before you get to anywhere else. With effort, the Sri Lanka state could control all the island and be safe.
The Nazis were in the government of Germany. With effort, the allies could occupy that land and squeeze the Nazis out of existence.
The leadership of Hamas is largely based in Qatar. Israel could turn Gaza into a pile of rubble, and Hamas still wouldn't be destroyed and Israel still wouldn't be safe.
Hence the problem.
Qatar and Israel are separated by a vast geography too, with Saudi Arabia and other states in-between.
So long as Hamas are eliminated from Gaza then I'd consider them vanquished. Them existing in Qatar is Qatar's problem.
Israel/Palestine is potentially catastrophic for Starmer and it's a trap he could easily fall into.
He could get out of it with a bold speech, as intimated in the header, but since that'd actually require strong leadership rather than tedious tactical triangulation it might be beyond him.
I'm not sure how he comes up with a speech that doesn't upset one side of the people he needs to keep happy...
You know who'd have had no problem whatever with a speech like this?
Tony Blair.
Iraq suggests otherwise.
Look at the speech he gave before and how he rallied public support (which had a majority in favour) before. Look at how he did it repeatedly for many years before, and even after. He was a political master. Teflon Tony. And that was for a reason.
Not everything about Blair and his political skills can be spiked just be saying: "Iraq".
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Israel will create a MUCH worse version of Hamas.
You cannot destroy Hamas, nobody thinks this is at all tangible, not even I think, Israel. The people left are going to want to either join Hamas or be more willing to support their aims. They won't stop thinking it because they killed some others. They can see what is happening.
Why can't you destroy Hamas?
Do you think Sri Lanka couldn't destroy the Tamil Tigers?
Are you honestly saying that if "Hamas" is destroyed, there will be nobody left in Palestine that supports their aims or sympathises with them? Unless you want to destroy Palestine completely, then I do not see it. Of course, that is what their leadership will happily do with you as their accomplice. It won't stop until they destroy Palestine completely.
If you revert back to Gaza being blockaded then you can guarantee misery for Palestinians and that they'll continue to support Hamas.
I'm calling for a twin track approach. First destroy Hamas, second have a Marshal Plan style development that sees people have a happy, healthy, developed and free future post-Hamas.
You pointedly ignore the second element. But the second element can only happen if the first is done first.
After destroying a settlement, do you honestly think these people are going to be willing to countenance anything to do with Israel ever again?
Perhaps, but it is the only chance they will.
If you don't destroy them and just blockade Gaza instead then you condemn them to misery.
You can't have a lasting peace without a positive future for Gazans. You can't have a positive future for Gazans without the blockade being lifted. You can't lift the blockade without Hamas being destroyed.
Most of the leadership is in other countries . You might reduce their ability to send rockets into Israel but you’re not going to eliminate all the fighters or their ideology .
Israel seems to be using a collective punishment and making life so horrific that they hope Gazans will turn against Hamas .
They have essentially bet everything on that scenario . What happens if anger and revenge become the response ?
It remains my belief that only giving the Palestinians realistic hope for a better future will end the cycle of violence .
I don't think you can every eliminate an idea, and that's what eliminating Hamas means. As long as some Palestinians want to remove Jews from the land, you'll have something like Hamas.
But in the medium to long term, you can make the idea irrelevant. And one way to do that would be to make both Palestine and Israel prosperous. If both sides are too busy making money; if their quality of life is good or excellent, there will be less (sadly, not no) reason to go around killing each other.
And whilst Israel has proven itself to be a fairly successful state, it's far more difficult for Palestine to do that if it is split into two non-contiguous areas. This is an aspect of the 'two nation' solution that I have some trouble with, and don't know of a workable solution to.
I think it is time to go and have a nice hot bath and relax in bed with a book, before this forum becomes any more nasty
For me, Mrs C has some mutton stew on the stove, and I am just about to open some Cotes de Rhone and return to a rather interesting book on early nineteenth century evolutionary thought in Edinburgh. Far more constructive.
I cooked a lamb tagine earlier with pomegranate seeds and accompanied by couscous, fresh coriander, lemon zest and Greek yogurt. Yum. My daughter loved it.
I also like the bath idea. I will be reading King Charles III by Robert Hardman, which I'm finding very interesting so far.
Israel was the wronged party in October. But they have deliberately attacked civilian targets repeatedly while Ukraine have gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties (unlike Russia).
And Israel under Netanyahu and his far right coalition partners (and before, frankly) was behaving as a bully across the West Bank for years.
I was fiercely supportive of Israel in the weeks after the start of the war despite my distaste for their leadership, but they have really tested everyone’s tolerance since, in a way Ukraine has never done.
As for anti-semitism, I agree there is a disproportionate focus by some particularly on the left on the Israel Palestine conflict and AS is definitely part of it, but believing Israel cannot be criticised is a form of othering too.
Israel had the good will of virtually everyone who isn't a nutjob. The fact they've managed to piss everyone off including the US shows just had badly they have got it wrong. They had a lot of good will on their side which they've pissed away with their idiotic actions.
They must think we are stupid.
You are, to be frank.
Hamas need to be destroyed, even you in theory acknowledge this, but you refuse to provide any alternative way to do so beyond what Israel are doing.
You bemoan the casualties of war, but don't provide any practical alternative. That is to be frank stupid.
If there is one thing we have learnt it is that you do not destroy terrorist organizations with violence. Israel have ensured hamas recruits for decades to come.
You absolutely can destroy terrorist organisations with violence, if that is what it takes. Plenty of examples of them being vanquished all over the globe. See for instance the Tamil Tigers and many, many, many more.
Key is to use the window created by destroying them to then provide a better alternative, but destroying them has to come first.
A ceasefire that sees Hamas retain Gaza and Gaza revert back to being blockaded as a result will guarantee Hamas recruits for decades to come.
Like the IDF the Sri Lankan army killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians in the process. Many are still held in camps. Is it a lasting peace? I'm not sure. And Western governments were far more active in demanding a ceasefire in this case, of course.
Yes and those calling for a ceasefire need to be told to mind their own business and the war must continue until there is unconditional surrender. A ceasefire that sees Gaza go back to being blockaded would be the worst thing to happen.
Which is how the Tamils were destroyed. The last remaining fighters surrendered.
I think you meant the Tigers not the Tamils here...
I think you have to go back to first principles. Why are Hamas bad? Because they kill innocent people. So if destroying Hamas means killing even more innocent people, then it's self defeating. It's different of course if you have a "side" in the Israel/Palestine debate, but unlike you I don't. I just wish they would agree a fair solution and stop killing each other.
Clear skies tonight in Tallinn and the Northern Lights are dancing again.
Spring may not be so far away, the snow in Tallinn has mostly gone, and a more purposeful atmosphere seems to pervade the lanes and streets of the old city. A couple of degrees of frost, but they days are lengthening by five or six minutes each day. Daylight is returning after the long winter darkness.
The murder of Navalny hit people hard here, the loss of all hope of change in Russia was expected, yet still as Putin continues to double down again and again, the inevitability of war is hard to accept. Yet as the Loathsome Lavrov extends his threats to include Moldova and the Estonian High Command places the militia on more or less immediate readiness (and the defence budget touches 4% of GDP), what was once unthinkable has become a common place.
Yet the murder of Navalny, the disqualification of Nadezhdin and the renewed repression in Russia is not a sign of the strength of the Putin regime. Neither is the increasingly shrill threats of nuclear attack being made against France and the UK. The truth is that Putin and his fellow mafiosi in the Kremlin are terrified of the consequences of their own actions. Though it is true that the West, especially the United States, is not covering itself in glory, the accession of Sweden means that it joins with Finland and Poland to provide a military force that is fully capable of matching the degraded and weakening Russian forces without other assistance. Though Putin hopes his useful idiots in the GOP will destroy NATO by detaching the US, the reality is that even the compromised German armed forces are receiving a shot in the arm that undermines the Russian military playbook and the French and British are covering the Nordic battalions.
Whatever the truth of British assistance to Ukraine, the fact is that the Russian Black Sea fleet is drastically weakened and the Russian Air Force is being degraded in like manner, even before the arrival of F-16s and full on NATO assistance. Without a functioning air force, the Russian forces on the ground will be incredibly vulnerable.
Though we now expect the war to spread, partly as the result of Western weakness in facing the Russian challenge, we do not think that this will increase the chances of a Russian victory. Though Russian bravado is high, the truth is that Russia is facing a strategic defeat, as the Baltic becomes a NATO lake and the the forces of Finland and Sweden fully integrate with the other NATO forces. For the first time, Estonia now has strategic depth in defence. Increasingly the view is now that any Russian incursion here will fail and would lead to an outright Russian military defeat.
Let us trust that these are not hopes as ephemeral as the northern dancers in the skies above the Estonian capital tonight.
Israel was the wronged party in October. But they have deliberately attacked civilian targets repeatedly while Ukraine have gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties (unlike Russia).
And Israel under Netanyahu and his far right coalition partners (and before, frankly) was behaving as a bully across the West Bank for years.
I was fiercely supportive of Israel in the weeks after the start of the war despite my distaste for their leadership, but they have really tested everyone’s tolerance since, in a way Ukraine has never done.
As for anti-semitism, I agree there is a disproportionate focus by some particularly on the left on the Israel Palestine conflict and AS is definitely part of it, but believing Israel cannot be criticised is a form of othering too.
Israel had the good will of virtually everyone who isn't a nutjob. The fact they've managed to piss everyone off including the US shows just had badly they have got it wrong. They had a lot of good will on their side which they've pissed away with their idiotic actions.
They must think we are stupid.
You are, to be frank.
Hamas need to be destroyed, even you in theory acknowledge this, but you refuse to provide any alternative way to do so beyond what Israel are doing.
You bemoan the casualties of war, but don't provide any practical alternative. That is to be frank stupid.
If there is one thing we have learnt it is that you do not destroy terrorist organizations with violence. Israel have ensured hamas recruits for decades to come.
You absolutely can destroy terrorist organisations with violence, if that is what it takes. Plenty of examples of them being vanquished all over the globe. See for instance the Tamil Tigers and many, many, many more.
Key is to use the window created by destroying them to then provide a better alternative, but destroying them has to come first.
A ceasefire that sees Hamas retain Gaza and Gaza revert back to being blockaded as a result will guarantee Hamas recruits for decades to come.
Like the IDF the Sri Lankan army killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians in the process. Many are still held in camps. Is it a lasting peace? I'm not sure. And Western governments were far more active in demanding a ceasefire in this case, of course.
Yes and those calling for a ceasefire need to be told to mind their own business and the war must continue until there is unconditional surrender. A ceasefire that sees Gaza go back to being blockaded would be the worst thing to happen.
Which is how the Tamils were destroyed. The last remaining fighters surrendered.
I think you meant the Tigers not the Tamils here...
I think you have to go back to first principles. Why are Hamas bad? Because they kill innocent people. So if destroying Hamas means killing even more innocent people, then it's self defeating. It's different of course if you have a "side" in the Israel/Palestine debate, but unlike you I don't. I just wish they would agree a fair solution and stop killing each other.
Yes, you're right, I meant the Tigers sorry.
A ceasefire is self-defeating though.
A ceasefire means more misery, rightly blockading Gaza because TINA thanks to Hamas. It means no future for Palestinians, which means more recruited to Hamas and its ilk, and means more violence.
We need to break the cycle of violence. A ceasefire doesn't do that. Defeating Hamas then having a Marshal Plan afterwards just might. Not will, but might, and might is better than won't.
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Israel will create a MUCH worse version of Hamas.
You cannot destroy Hamas, nobody thinks this is at all tangible, not even I think, Israel. The people left are going to want to either join Hamas or be more willing to support their aims. They won't stop thinking it because they killed some others. They can see what is happening.
What is a 'much worse version of Hamas'?
It's not as though Hamas are nice and cuddly; as October 7th shows, they want to kill as many Jews as possible.
Really? Israel has killed 30,000 people inside of 5 MONTHS, far more than Hamas killed in 18 YEARS...
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Israel will create a MUCH worse version of Hamas.
You cannot destroy Hamas, nobody thinks this is at all tangible, not even I think, Israel. The people left are going to want to either join Hamas or be more willing to support their aims. They won't stop thinking it because they killed some others. They can see what is happening.
What is a 'much worse version of Hamas'?
It's not as though Hamas are nice and cuddly; as October 7th shows, they want to kill as many Jews as possible.
Really? Israel has killed 30,000 people inside of 5 MONTHS, far more than Hamas killed in 18 YEARS...
Here is the basic problem for Israel. Lets assume for a moment that Israel manages to destroy Hamas. Totally.
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
Israel will create a MUCH worse version of Hamas.
You cannot destroy Hamas, nobody thinks this is at all tangible, not even I think, Israel. The people left are going to want to either join Hamas or be more willing to support their aims. They won't stop thinking it because they killed some others. They can see what is happening.
Why can't you destroy Hamas?
Do you think Sri Lanka couldn't destroy the Tamil Tigers?
Are you honestly saying that if "Hamas" is destroyed, there will be nobody left in Palestine that supports their aims or sympathises with them? Unless you want to destroy Palestine completely, then I do not see it. Of course, that is what their leadership will happily do with you as their accomplice. It won't stop until they destroy Palestine completely.
If you revert back to Gaza being blockaded then you can guarantee misery for Palestinians and that they'll continue to support Hamas.
I'm calling for a twin track approach. First destroy Hamas, second have a Marshal Plan style development that sees people have a happy, healthy, developed and free future post-Hamas.
You pointedly ignore the second element. But the second element can only happen if the first is done first.
After destroying a settlement, do you honestly think these people are going to be willing to countenance anything to do with Israel ever again?
I think the mistake people make about manh Israelis is the "Palestinian land" holds no resonance for them because as far as they are concerned they were evicted from Israel by force c.2000 years ago, which led to them being displaced all over the world, and the original injustice was that and the Palestinians shouldn't really be there in the first place. Further, no-one else has ever looked out for them - and nor have they consistently been able to rely on anyone, save fellow Jews - so they need to take and make Israel their own to be safe and secure.
I don't agree with this simplistic view btw, but it does explain much of their thinking. And I sometimes think it bleeds into why they have little sympathy with the Palestinians too.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
Russia is illegally occupying eastern Ukraine (and bits of Georgia, Moldova and some Japanese islands). Israel is illegally occupying Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
War is sad I agree, its not my fault that there's a war happening just because I want to see the war resolved with the right side victorious.
Sometimes wars are worth fighting. Defeating the Nazis in WWII, defeating the Japanese in WWII, defeating the Russians in Ukraine and defeating Hamas in Gaza are all prime examples where evil authoritarians need to be defeated.
You claim to want them removed in theory but oppose any necessary action to remove them in practice.
Since when did I oppose Israel removing Hamas with deadly force?
I just don't believe that destroying Rafah and killing potentially thousands of women and children is a response that helps anyone. It's not like it's controversial to say that.
If Hamas are in Rafah then they need to be confronted there.
How else can Hamas be destroyed, in practice?
Not wishy washy intentions, practical alternative steps to vanquish them please.
Israel has stopped fuel getting into Gaza because it was being used to power the ventilation systems of the tunnels that it claims are hiding Hamas operatives. Given that it must know where these ventilation systems are, why has it not destroyed all such facilities, forcing those hiding in the tunnels to the surface?
That's one practical suggestion. Most are not disputing that eliminating Hamas as a military force is a desirable objective, but they are claiming that Israel is using an unnecessarily slow and destructive approach to doing so, in order to make it impossible for the civilian residents Gaza to continue living there. If that were true, it would not be a justified response.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
War is sad I agree, its not my fault that there's a war happening just because I want to see the war resolved with the right side victorious.
Sometimes wars are worth fighting. Defeating the Nazis in WWII, defeating the Japanese in WWII, defeating the Russians in Ukraine and defeating Hamas in Gaza are all prime examples where evil authoritarians need to be defeated.
You claim to want them removed in theory but oppose any necessary action to remove them in practice.
Since when did I oppose Israel removing Hamas with deadly force?
I just don't believe that destroying Rafah and killing potentially thousands of women and children is a response that helps anyone. It's not like it's controversial to say that.
If Hamas are in Rafah then they need to be confronted there.
How else can Hamas be destroyed, in practice?
Not wishy washy intentions, practical alternative steps to vanquish them please.
Israel has stopped fuel getting into Gaza because it was being used to power the ventilation systems of the tunnels that it claims are hiding Hamas operatives. Given that it must know where these ventilation systems are, why has it not destroyed all such facilities, forcing those hiding in the tunnels to the surface?
That's one practical suggestion. Most are not disputing that eliminating Hamas as a military force is a desirable objective, but they are claiming that Israel is using an unnecessarily slow and destructive approach to doing so, in order to make it impossible for the civilian residents Gaza to continue living there. If that were true, it would not be a justified response.
Back in 1967, the IDF of that era conquered Gaza in just 48 hours...
I think it is time to go and have a nice hot bath and relax in bed with a book, before this forum becomes any more nasty
For me, Mrs C has some mutton stew on the stove, and I am just about to open some Cotes de Rhone and return to a rather interesting book on early nineteenth century evolutionary thought in Edinburgh. Far more constructive.
I found out recently that Pukka Pies make pies you can cook in a microwave. This enormous advancement in humanity has been shamelessly overlooked.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
Russia is illegally occupying eastern Ukraine (and bits of Georgia, Moldova and some Japanese islands). Israel is illegally occupying Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan.
Russia occupied eastern Ukraine after it attacked Ukraine unprovoked.
Israel is only occupying land it won in defensive wars initiated by their neighbours seeking to destroy them.
The two are completely different.
If the Ukraine war ends with Ukraine occupying Belgorod and Voronezh then that would be comparable.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
The last thing Ukraine needs right now is to be likened to Israel.
Russia is not an insurgent terrorist organisation, it’s a vast nation state that fancies having a bit of its neighbours. Ukraine is not a nuclear armed regional hegemon, with settlements encroaching on Russian land and an ultra-nationalist populist leader in power.
Israel has its justifications for retaliating after 7th October but the situation is much less black and white than Ukraine where there is a good guy and a bad guy and very little need for nuance.
Israel is the good guy, it is a free democracy that has been attacked.
Hamas are the bad guys. They are evil, authoritarian terrorists.
The refusal to acknowledge Israel as the good guy here stems from antisemitism in my eyes. Anyone else would absolutely be acknowledged unequivocally as the good guy.
Israel was the wronged party in October. But they have deliberately attacked civilian targets repeatedly while Ukraine have gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties (unlike Russia).
And Israel under Netanyahu and his far right coalition partners (and before, frankly) was behaving as a bully across the West Bank for years.
I was fiercely supportive of Israel in the weeks after the start of the war despite my distaste for their leadership, but they have really tested everyone’s tolerance since, in a way Ukraine has never done.
As for anti-semitism, I agree there is a disproportionate focus by some particularly on the left on the Israel Palestine conflict and AS is definitely part of it, but believing Israel cannot be criticised is a form of othering too.
To be fair, I think some of this is utterly shit PR (they probably don't think it even matters, because it's none of anyone else's business) by Israel.
Gaza is very very densely populated and Hamas infrastructure is deeply woven into civilian buildings, including schools, hospitals, and community centres, and quite deliberately so.
However, that carelessness probably bleeds into other areas, for similar reasons, like on bombing and refugee management that could minimise them a bit and help wirh international opinion, but there's no doubt in my mind it's very difficult to prosecute any war in Gaza against Hamas without civilian casualties.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
Russia is illegally occupying eastern Ukraine (and bits of Georgia, Moldova and some Japanese islands). Israel is illegally occupying Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan.
Russia occupied eastern Ukraine after it attacked Ukraine unprovoked.
Israel is only occupying land it won in defensive wars initiated by their neighbours seeking to destroy them.
The two are completely different.
If the Ukraine war ends with Ukraine occupying Belgorod and Voronezh then that would be comparable.
They are NOT completely different. Illegal occupation in both cases.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
Russia is illegally occupying eastern Ukraine (and bits of Georgia, Moldova and some Japanese islands). Israel is illegally occupying Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan.
Russia occupied eastern Ukraine after it attacked Ukraine unprovoked.
Israel is only occupying land it won in defensive wars initiated by their neighbours seeking to destroy them.
The two are completely different.
If the Ukraine war ends with Ukraine occupying Belgorod and Voronezh then that would be comparable.
They are NOT completely different. Illegal occupation in both cases.
They are completely different.
One was an unprovoked war of aggression, the other was self-defence.
The two are entirely different.
Since Egypt and Jordan don't want the land back anymore, Israel is stuck with an occupation it can't end either, since the aggressor they seized the land from in self-defence no longer wants it back.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
Russia is illegally occupying eastern Ukraine (and bits of Georgia, Moldova and some Japanese islands). Israel is illegally occupying Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan.
Russia occupied eastern Ukraine after it attacked Ukraine unprovoked.
Israel is only occupying land it won in defensive wars initiated by their neighbours seeking to destroy them.
The two are completely different.
If the Ukraine war ends with Ukraine occupying Belgorod and Voronezh then that would be comparable.
They are NOT completely different. Illegal occupation in both cases.
They are completely different.
One was an unprovoked war of aggression, the other was self-defence.
The two are entirely different.
Since Egypt and Jordan don't want the land back anymore, Israel is stuck with an occupation it can't end either, since the aggressor they seized the land from in self-defence no longer wants it back.
Israel undertook a land-grab in 1967 pure and simple.
BTW Egypt and Jordan formally ceded the territory to the State of Palestine in 1988, in case you forget.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
Russia is illegally occupying eastern Ukraine (and bits of Georgia, Moldova and some Japanese islands). Israel is illegally occupying Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan.
Russia occupied eastern Ukraine after it attacked Ukraine unprovoked.
Israel is only occupying land it won in defensive wars initiated by their neighbours seeking to destroy them.
The two are completely different.
If the Ukraine war ends with Ukraine occupying Belgorod and Voronezh then that would be comparable.
They are NOT completely different. Illegal occupation in both cases.
They are completely different.
One was an unprovoked war of aggression, the other was self-defence.
The two are entirely different.
Since Egypt and Jordan don't want the land back anymore, Israel is stuck with an occupation it can't end either, since the aggressor they seized the land from in self-defence no longer wants it back.
Israel undertook a land-grab in 1967 pure and simple.
BTW Egypt and Jordan formally ceded the territory to the State of Palestine in 1988, in case you forget.
Egypt and Jordan tried to wipe out the state of Israel. Again.
If Israel had wanted to do a land grab they were well equipped to deport everyone from "Greater Israel" and to annex all those lands. If they'd done that, ironically, by now there'd probably be peace too.
Quite rightly they did not.
There's no such thing as "the State of Palestine" in case you forget. There would have been, but Arafat rejected the peace process.
I think it is time to go and have a nice hot bath and relax in bed with a book, before this forum becomes any more nasty
For me, Mrs C has some mutton stew on the stove, and I am just about to open some Cotes de Rhone and return to a rather interesting book on early nineteenth century evolutionary thought in Edinburgh. Far more constructive.
I found out recently that Pukka Pies make pies you can cook in a microwave. This enormous advancement in humanity has been shamelessly overlooked.
I think it is time to go and have a nice hot bath and relax in bed with a book, before this forum becomes any more nasty
For me, Mrs C has some mutton stew on the stove, and I am just about to open some Cotes de Rhone and return to a rather interesting book on early nineteenth century evolutionary thought in Edinburgh. Far more constructive.
I found out recently that Pukka Pies make pies you can cook in a microwave. This enormous advancement in humanity has been shamelessly overlooked.
I think it is time to go and have a nice hot bath and relax in bed with a book, before this forum becomes any more nasty
For me, Mrs C has some mutton stew on the stove, and I am just about to open some Cotes de Rhone and return to a rather interesting book on early nineteenth century evolutionary thought in Edinburgh. Far more constructive.
I found out recently that Pukka Pies make pies you can cook in a microwave. This enormous advancement in humanity has been shamelessly overlooked.
I think it is time to go and have a nice hot bath and relax in bed with a book, before this forum becomes any more nasty
For me, Mrs C has some mutton stew on the stove, and I am just about to open some Cotes de Rhone and return to a rather interesting book on early nineteenth century evolutionary thought in Edinburgh. Far more constructive.
I found out recently that Pukka Pies make pies you can cook in a microwave. This enormous advancement in humanity has been shamelessly overlooked.
Credit to Starmer and Sunak for not pandering to the hate-filled extremists in the far-left and far-right.
Israel has the right and responsibility for self-defence from the monsters that are Hamas who must be destroyed, which is not yet accomplished. Israel needs to go into Rafah and anywhere else that Hamas might be hiding.
If Hamas want an end to the war, they can release all hostages, disband and relinquish their arms.
The fact you are so willing to see so many people killed is really sad.
(And before you try and make out that I don't want to see Hamas removed as you did last time, the answer is still, they should be removed.)
Warmongers gonna warmonger. The man is obsessed although Ukraine seems to have fallen off the radar.
Are you talking to me again now? You seemed very angry the other day, hope you've calmed down now. More of a mental health check in than anything else.
No. Bart. He seems obsessed with war, it was Ukraine before this.
Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Hamas chose to attack Israel.
I fully support the victim of both attacks having the right of self-defence, absolutely.
No apologies for that. If Russia and Hamas didn't do the attacks, there'd be no war.
The last thing Ukraine needs right now is to be likened to Israel.
Russia is not an insurgent terrorist organisation, it’s a vast nation state that fancies having a bit of its neighbours. Ukraine is not a nuclear armed regional hegemon, with settlements encroaching on Russian land and an ultra-nationalist populist leader in power.
Israel has its justifications for retaliating after 7th October but the situation is much less black and white than Ukraine where there is a good guy and a bad guy and very little need for nuance.
Israel is the good guy, it is a free democracy that has been attacked.
Hamas are the bad guys. They are evil, authoritarian terrorists.
The refusal to acknowledge Israel as the good guy here stems from antisemitism in my eyes. Anyone else would absolutely be acknowledged unequivocally as the good guy.
Israel was the wronged party in October. But they have deliberately attacked civilian targets repeatedly while Ukraine have gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties (unlike Russia).
And Israel under Netanyahu and his far right coalition partners (and before, frankly) was behaving as a bully across the West Bank for years.
I was fiercely supportive of Israel in the weeks after the start of the war despite my distaste for their leadership, but they have really tested everyone’s tolerance since, in a way Ukraine has never done.
As for anti-semitism, I agree there is a disproportionate focus by some particularly on the left on the Israel Palestine conflict and AS is definitely part of it, but believing Israel cannot be criticised is a form of othering too.
To be fair, I think some of this is utterly shit PR (they probably don't think it even matters, because it's none of anyone else's business) by Israel.
Gaza is very very densely populated and Hamas infrastructure is deeply woven into civilian buildings, including schools, hospitals, and community centres, and quite deliberately so.
However, that carelessness probably bleeds into other areas, for similar reasons, like on bombing and refugee management that could minimise them a bit and help wirh international opinion, but there's no doubt in my mind it's very difficult to prosecute any war in Gaza against Hamas without civilian casualties.
The thing that really sticks out is that Israel are making so little effort to supply food to civilians in Gaza that other countries are now having to drop food from planes. Israel does seem to be falling well short of its obligations under international law to look after civilians in a conflict zone.
The fact that they're fighting against Hamas - whose entire military strategy is predicated on treating all Jews as combatants - doesn't give them a pass on sticking to the rules. But it does mean that a unilateral Israeli ceasefire isn't the cure-all its advocates pretend it is.
I must confess to some confusion about this. Unlike the famous pictures of Truss, it's not inherently ridiculous. If this is the worst that can be thrown at Labour, they are home and hosed.
I must confess to some confusion about this. Unlike the famous pictures of Truss, it's not inherently ridiculous. If this is the worst that can be thrown at Labour, they are home and hosed.
It’s a bit strange I think. The worst they can throw at Labour is their flip flopping double standards, but it’s allowed to laugh at silly photos I think
I must confess to some confusion about this. Unlike the famous pictures of Truss, it's not inherently ridiculous. If this is the worst that can be thrown at Labour, they are home and hosed.
It's definitely comparable with the ludicrous Truss posing like she's on the loo in her trouser suit pictures, not because it's the same, but because it's awful in a different way. This one looks genuinely sinister. The casually crossed legs make it all the worse. You could do a top 5 terrible recent lady politician pics.
Jeremy Hunt considering further public spending total cuts to boost tax giveaway
National Insurance could be cut by 2p again in the budget if the chancellor succeeds in finding the right mix of revenue raising measures and spending cuts.
Comments
There can be no winners here, and honestly I just consider it is impossible to destroy Hamas 100%, especially now
Hamas are the bad guys. They are evil, authoritarian terrorists.
The refusal to acknowledge Israel as the good guy here stems from antisemitism in my eyes. Anyone else would absolutely be acknowledged unequivocally as the good guy.
Are they better than Hamas, clearly. But it is quite clear why you see it as you do when you are so blinded to Israel's many flaws, probable war crimes and the fact you are quite happy to see thousands of people killed when it probably won't even work.
After you have finished your porridge
If Hamas are in Rafah then that means going after them there, and anywhere else they hide.
When has this ever happened? I've given you examples: Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan etc.
Keep on fighting until there's an unconditional surrender and then rebuild. No ceasefire, complete and unconditional surrender.
And Israel under Netanyahu and his far right coalition partners (and before, frankly) was behaving as a bully across the West Bank for years.
I was fiercely supportive of Israel in the weeks after the start of the war despite my distaste for their leadership, but they have really tested everyone’s tolerance since, in a way Ukraine has never done.
As for anti-semitism, I agree there is a disproportionate focus by some particularly on the left on the Israel Palestine conflict and AS is definitely part of it, but believing Israel cannot be criticised is a form of othering too.
Israel are proposing to destroy and flatten a settlement which nobody believes will actually destroy Hamas. The ends do not justify the means.
It is legitimately staggering to have you sit here and not even think about the women and children you are sending to death.
What you will do, is whether you destroy Hamas or not, create a new generation of people with far less care for obliterating Israel. You will create another war with your actions.
The US knows it. The UK knows it. Enough is enough. Israel are warmongering nutjobs who have to be stopped.
Disliking a democratic government doesn't make them the bad guy.
Thousands of people die in war, its sad but its reality, pretending otherwise is just kidding yourself. A "ceasefire" which leads to Palestine being blockaded once more is the worst thing that can happen.
They must think we are stupid.
I don't want to see innocents killed and Israel has bent over backwards to minimise civilian casualties, which I completely support. If they were bombing indiscriminately as they've been falsely accused of there'd be over a million dead by now rather than merely tens of thousands.
Israel should continue to be proportionate but also enforce its goals until Hamas are completely and utterly destroyed or unconditionally surrender.
Why else do you deny Israel the right to self-defence and to destroy Hamas wherever they may be?
Every other nation has that right, why don't Israel?
Which other genocide have you supported Philip?
https://www.roads.org.uk/blog/oxfords-ground-zero
Hamas need to be destroyed, even you in theory acknowledge this, but you refuse to provide any alternative way to do so beyond what Israel are doing.
You bemoan the casualties of war, but don't provide any practical alternative. That is to be frank stupid.
Hamas and Israel want this war (votes in the HoC notwithstanding).
Would you rather Israel had done nothing after October 7th. Would it have been politically possible to do nothing.
Other than that I think they are overrated. Would never desecrate a war memorial though as they generally remember working class men who lost their lives fighting fascism
Key is to use the window created by destroying them to then provide a better alternative, but destroying them has to come first.
A ceasefire that sees Hamas retain Gaza and Gaza revert back to being blockaded as a result will guarantee Hamas recruits for decades to come.
A ceasefire that sees Gaza blockaded is not peace.
When would you have stopped if you were Israel. Plenty were out on the streets on October 8th.
The first mention of the war or any activity by any party by Oxfam (ie ignoring those by Hamas on October 7th) was on October 13th. Calling for a ceasefire.
There have been nutjobs advocating a ceasefire since day one, I was not one of those people. I am just agreeing with where the UK Government and US Government are now, which is that what Israel intends to do next is idiotic, self-defeating and won't solve any problems.
I would have stopped now, as the US and UK have advocated for.
Do you think killing civilians trying to get food is acceptable?
No chance of peace, no chance of development, no chance of reconstruction. You're condemning Gaza to decades more misery. What a tragedy that would be.
To answer your question, deliberately killing civilians is never OK. Only one side in my view has done that.
Now can you answer my question please?
What happens then? Israel reoccupies what is left of Gaza. The population are smashed, and angry. And the next iteration of the anti-Israel resistance movement will arise...
If Israel don't destroy Hamas, and Hamas survive this and Gaza is blockaded once more, that can't happen.
You cannot destroy Hamas, nobody thinks this is at all tangible, not even I think, Israel. The people left are going to want to either join Hamas or be more willing to support their aims. They won't stop thinking it because they killed some others. They can see what is happening.
If you decouple Hamas from the Palestinians, then you also need to decouple 'Israelis' from the actions of the Netanyahu government.
What is happening is awful and tragic, and Netanyahu is going way too far; so far, in fact, it imperils the existence of the Israeli state by removing much of the worldwide support that has helped it for seven decades. Some may celebrate the end of the Israeli state; I fear that it would be very bad for the worldwide Jewish community. And that's Bibi's madness.
Do you think Sri Lanka couldn't destroy the Tamil Tigers?
It's not as though Hamas are nice and cuddly; as October 7th shows, they want to kill as many Jews as possible.
I happen to think at this point the Palestinian people are less bad than the Israeli Government. But Hamas are the worst, clearly.
I do not celebrate the end of Israel at all, I want them around as a viable state for good, as they deserve. But their leadership is damaging that. Not me.
Hamas are vile, what will come next will be worse.
Netanyahu therefore really wants a Trump victory in November to get the US firmly back on his side
Which is how the Tamils were destroyed. The last remaining fighters surrendered.
It doesn't matter if Israel is totally isolated, they can and should press on until the enemy surrenders unconditionally. Then the war is won and peace can come afterwards, not before.
I am not anti-Semitic, I support Israel's right to exist. I am not a nutjob that has called for a ceasefire from day one or goes on marches in favour of Hamas.
Please do not lump me in with those people. If you continue I'll put you on ignore.
Hamas can't get any worse; their aims are as obvious as they are sick. What *may* change is any restraint that their backers put on them; but that's a different thing.
I'm calling for a twin track approach. First destroy Hamas, second have a Marshal Plan style development that sees people have a happy, healthy, developed and free future post-Hamas.
You pointedly ignore the second element. But the second element can only happen if the first is done first.
Hamas are vile absolutely - but Israel are not being intelligent by flattening them and assuming nothing will appear in its place.
The Tamil Tigers were on the island of Sri Lanka, and there is a load of sea before you get to anywhere else. With effort, the Sri Lanka state could control all the island and be safe.
The Nazis were in the government of Germany. With effort, the allies could occupy that land and squeeze the Nazis out of existence.
The leadership of Hamas is largely based in Qatar. Israel could turn Gaza into a pile of rubble, and Hamas still wouldn't be destroyed and Israel still wouldn't be safe.
Hence the problem.
He is willing to risk contracting AIDS for a ceasefire
https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1764194445149241481?s=61
Most of the leadership is in other countries . You might reduce their ability to send rockets into Israel but you’re not going to eliminate all the fighters or their ideology .
Israel seems to be using a collective punishment and making life so horrific that they hope Gazans will turn against Hamas .
They have essentially bet everything on that scenario . What happens if anger and revenge become the response ?
It remains my belief that only giving the Palestinians realistic hope for a better future will end the cycle of violence .
So long as Hamas are eliminated from Gaza then I'd consider them vanquished. Them existing in Qatar is Qatar's problem.
Not everything about Blair and his political skills can be spiked just be saying: "Iraq".
If you don't destroy them and just blockade Gaza instead then you condemn them to misery.
You can't have a lasting peace without a positive future for Gazans.
You can't have a positive future for Gazans without the blockade being lifted.
You can't lift the blockade without Hamas being destroyed.
Once you've eliminated the impossible ...
But in the medium to long term, you can make the idea irrelevant. And one way to do that would be to make both Palestine and Israel prosperous. If both sides are too busy making money; if their quality of life is good or excellent, there will be less (sadly, not no) reason to go around killing each other.
And whilst Israel has proven itself to be a fairly successful state, it's far more difficult for Palestine to do that if it is split into two non-contiguous areas. This is an aspect of the 'two nation' solution that I have some trouble with, and don't know of a workable solution to.
I also like the bath idea. I will be reading King Charles III by Robert Hardman, which I'm finding very interesting so far.
I think you have to go back to first principles. Why are Hamas bad? Because they kill innocent people. So if destroying Hamas means killing even more innocent people, then it's self defeating. It's different of course if you have a "side" in the Israel/Palestine debate, but unlike you I don't. I just wish they would agree a fair solution and stop killing each other.
Spring may not be so far away, the snow in Tallinn has mostly gone, and a more purposeful atmosphere seems to pervade the lanes and streets of the old city. A couple of degrees of frost, but they days are lengthening by five or six minutes each day. Daylight is returning after the long winter darkness.
The murder of Navalny hit people hard here, the loss of all hope of change in Russia was expected, yet still as Putin continues to double down again and again, the inevitability of war is hard to accept. Yet as the Loathsome Lavrov extends his threats to include Moldova and the Estonian High Command places the militia on more or less immediate readiness (and the defence budget touches 4% of GDP), what was once unthinkable has become a common place.
Yet the murder of Navalny, the disqualification of Nadezhdin and the renewed repression in Russia is not a sign of the strength of the Putin regime. Neither is the increasingly shrill threats of nuclear attack being made against France and the UK. The truth is that Putin and his fellow mafiosi in the Kremlin are terrified of the consequences of their own actions. Though it is true that the West, especially the United States, is not covering itself in glory, the accession of Sweden means that it joins with Finland and Poland to provide a military force that is fully capable of matching the degraded and weakening Russian forces without other assistance. Though Putin hopes his useful idiots in the GOP will destroy NATO by detaching the US, the reality is that even the compromised German armed forces are receiving a shot in the arm that undermines the Russian military playbook and the French and British are covering the Nordic battalions.
Whatever the truth of British assistance to Ukraine, the fact is that the Russian Black Sea fleet is drastically weakened and the Russian Air Force is being degraded in like manner, even before the arrival of F-16s and full on NATO assistance. Without a functioning air force, the Russian forces on the ground will be incredibly vulnerable.
Though we now expect the war to spread, partly as the result of Western weakness in facing the Russian challenge, we do not think that this will increase the chances of a Russian victory. Though Russian bravado is high, the truth is that Russia is facing a strategic defeat, as the Baltic becomes a NATO lake and the the forces of Finland and Sweden fully integrate with the other NATO forces. For the first time, Estonia now has strategic depth in defence. Increasingly the view is now that any Russian incursion here will fail and would lead to an outright Russian military defeat.
Let us trust that these are not hopes as ephemeral as the northern dancers in the skies above the Estonian capital tonight.
A ceasefire is self-defeating though.
A ceasefire means more misery, rightly blockading Gaza because TINA thanks to Hamas. It means no future for Palestinians, which means more recruited to Hamas and its ilk, and means more violence.
We need to break the cycle of violence. A ceasefire doesn't do that. Defeating Hamas then having a Marshal Plan afterwards just might. Not will, but might, and might is better than won't.
I don't agree with this simplistic view btw, but it does explain much of their thinking. And I sometimes think it bleeds into why they have little sympathy with the Palestinians too.
Israel is illegally occupying Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan.
That's one practical suggestion. Most are not disputing that eliminating Hamas as a military force is a desirable objective, but they are claiming that Israel is using an unnecessarily slow and destructive approach to doing so, in order to make it impossible for the civilian residents Gaza to continue living there. If that were true, it would not be a justified response.
https://www.pukkapies.co.uk/steak-pie-microwavable/
Israel is only occupying land it won in defensive wars initiated by their neighbours seeking to destroy them.
The two are completely different.
If the Ukraine war ends with Ukraine occupying Belgorod and Voronezh then that would be comparable.
Gaza is very very densely populated and Hamas infrastructure is deeply woven into civilian buildings, including schools, hospitals, and community centres, and quite deliberately so.
However, that carelessness probably bleeds into other areas, for similar reasons, like on bombing and refugee management that could minimise them a bit and help wirh international opinion, but there's no doubt in my mind it's very difficult to prosecute any war in Gaza against Hamas without civilian casualties.
One was an unprovoked war of aggression, the other was self-defence.
The two are entirely different.
Since Egypt and Jordan don't want the land back anymore, Israel is stuck with an occupation it can't end either, since the aggressor they seized the land from in self-defence no longer wants it back.
BTW Egypt and Jordan formally ceded the territory to the State of Palestine in 1988, in case you forget.
If Israel had wanted to do a land grab they were well equipped to deport everyone from "Greater Israel" and to annex all those lands. If they'd done that, ironically, by now there'd probably be peace too.
Quite rightly they did not.
There's no such thing as "the State of Palestine" in case you forget. There would have been, but Arafat rejected the peace process.
https://x.com/rigby113/status/1764228592215392406?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
SL2 route (commenced running yesterday), from Walthamstow to the Woolwich Ferry. I had just got off at Gants Hill after riding it from Walthamstow.
Ambil - a wild tobacco paste with jungle varietals
And
Mamba - pure green coca powder with sacred herbs
And it’s not even tea time
BidenTrump has dementia newshttps://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/03/trump-confuses-obama-biden-virginia-rally
"Richmond crowd reportedly went silent as 77-year-old mixed up the president and ex-president for third time in past six months"
The fact that they're fighting against Hamas - whose entire military strategy is predicated on treating all Jews as combatants - doesn't give them a pass on sticking to the rules. But it does mean that a unilateral Israeli ceasefire isn't the cure-all its advocates pretend it is.
Theresa May looking helpless and shrivelled into the sofa: https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/fashion/theresa-mays-fashion-instinct-we-dissect-the-prime-ministers-vogue-shoot-a3495261.html
Nadine Dorries standing on a table:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2196561/MP-Nadine-Dorries-flaunts-Tatler-photo-shoot-slams-sexist-Cameron.html
Truss could probably fill a top 5 alone.
Male politicians are lucky that nobody cares how they look or tries to do anything more ambitious than shoot them sitting on the edge of a desk.
National Insurance could be cut by 2p again in the budget if the chancellor succeeds in finding the right mix of revenue raising measures and spending cuts.
https://news.sky.com/story/chancellor-jeremy-hunt-considering-further-public-spending-cut-to-boost-tax-giveaway-in-budget-13086803
So I suspect we will see that kept the way it is but Labour will be reversing it by putting 2-3p on Income Tax..