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This is not sustainable for the Tories – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,586
edited March 2024 in General
This is not sustainable for the Tories – politicalbetting.com

At the last election, the crossover age where voters were more likely to vote Tory than Labour was 45. At the next one it will be 68 @TheEconomist: https://t.co/AUz2fhgXxJ pic.twitter.com/HyzQFdKs3T

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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,873
    edited March 2024
    I am so old I remember when the Tories rightly criticised the Labour government for subsidising the public sector and the Trade Unions client base by transferring money from the private sector.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,877
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I am so old I remember when the Tories rightly criticised the Labour government for subsidising the public sector and the Trade Unions client base by transferring money from the private sector.

    I'm so old I can remember the Prime Minister standing in solidarity with protestors who blocked the roads. About a week ago, wasn't it?

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/mar/01/tories-accused-of-hypocrisy-farmers-protests-crackdown-climate-gaza
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,877
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I am so old I remember when the Tories rightly criticised the Labour government for subsidising the public sector and the Trade Unions client base by transferring money from the private sector.

    I'm so old I can remember the Prime Minister standing in Downing Street and condemning George Galloway in a passage that has been edited out of the official record of his speech.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-address-on-extremism-1-march-2024
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,627
    This, surely not, is good English syntax.

    But yes, the trend is not a good one for the Tories.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    It would be quite amusing if the pensioner vote was split between Reform UK and the Conservatives, thus obliterating both parties.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    edited March 2024
    FPT
    Alanbrooke said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    The Conservative party has spent the last few years whipping up Culture War against "the enemy within" and it is the core of their electoral strategy. They have deliberately and consciously whipped up hate against minority Britons.

    Complaining about division and sectarianism is like a fish complaining that the water is wet.
    So Sunak against Asians ? Cleverly against blacks ? Shapps against jews ? Badenoch against women ?

    I suspect not.
    In 'civilisation' Kenneth Clarke concludes to the effect that, the basis of success for western civilisation is having confidence in itself. The enduring point is that there are many cultural forces that seek to destroy our confidence in ourselves which is an existential problem that remains 50 years on. The objection to much 'woke' thinking is that it is not constructive as it starts from the premise that western civilisation is evil and beyond redemption. If you have this mindset as a starting point then the situation is pretty hopeless.

    The point about Trump and the 'far right' is that they do exude a form of self confidence, they promise to eradicate these threats; Islamists will be deported, the negative cultural forces will be shut down through reform of institutions and universities. If your assessment of the situation is that we are in a crisis / emergency, then it has a certain appeal.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,248
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I am so old I remember when the Tories rightly criticised the Labour government for subsidising the public sector and the Trade Unions client base by transferring money from the private sector.

    You must be really, really old if you can remember a Labour Government, it was a long time ago.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    OldKingCole said:

    Jonathan said:

    The very best people get more left wing as they get older. A minority, but they’re the ones paying attention not distracted by comfort and baubles. You have to love an 80 year old who still wants to change the world.

    As one of the, I think, two posters who are 80+, thank you!
    I’ve never thought that the world was as good as it could be, and while there was a time when it was better for me, that was because I was fit and strong, not old and physically feeble. I want a better world for my children and grandchildren.
    That’s why I don’t vote Conservative.
    You are the very best of us. If I get to 80, I would love to be like your good self.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,242
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I am so old I remember when the Tories rightly criticised the Labour government for subsidising the public sector and the Trade Unions client base by transferring money from the private sector.

    I'm so old I can remember the Prime Minister standing in Downing Street and condemning George Galloway in a passage that has been edited out of the official record of his speech.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-address-on-extremism-1-march-2024
    What on earth is he on about?

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,873
    Benpointer said:

    This, surely not, is good English syntax.

    But yes, the trend is not a good one for the Tories.

    Yeah, I've corrected it, I was switching between drafts.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,242
    darkage said:

    FPT

    Alanbrooke said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    The Conservative party has spent the last few years whipping up Culture War against "the enemy within" and it is the core of their electoral strategy. They have deliberately and consciously whipped up hate against minority Britons.

    Complaining about division and sectarianism is like a fish complaining that the water is wet.
    So Sunak against Asians ? Cleverly against blacks ? Shapps against jews ? Badenoch against women ?

    I suspect not.
    In 'civilisation' Kenneth Clarke concludes to the effect that, the basis of success for western civilisation is having confidence in itself. The enduring point is that there are many cultural forces that seek to destroy our confidence in ourselves which is an existential problem that remains 50 years on. The objection to much 'woke' thinking is that it is not constructive as it starts from the premise that western civilisation is evil and beyond redemption. If you have this mindset as a starting point then the situation is pretty hopeless.

    The point about Trump and the 'far right' is that they do exude a form of self confidence, they promise to eradicate these threats; Islamists will be deported, the negative cultural forces will be shut down through reform of institutions and universities. If your assessment of the situation is that we are in a crisis / emergency, then it has a certain appeal.
    I do not recognise your characterisation of "Woke". Any confident and secure culture can take criticism, and learn from it to be a better place.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,627
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Benpointer said:

    This, surely not, is good English syntax.

    But yes, the trend is not a good one for the Tories.

    Yeah, I've corrected it, I was switching between drafts.
    I thought channelling your inner Yoda, you were.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    So, what do the Tories do to attract younger voters, say those who are about to retire? There’s nothing aspirational about becoming a Tory. All parties are weird to an extent, but this current incarnation of the Tory party is bizarre.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,877
    DWP fraud investigation wrongly threatens to stop disability benefits over 88p
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/dwp-fraud-investigation-wrongly-threatens-32249191

    Makes you proud to be British!

    But there is a Kafka-esque side to this, beyond the usual heartless Tories or incompetent civil service (delete as to taste). Someone reported to the DWP that hubby Chris is hiding assets in an ISA and bank account. DWP demanded proof they are not his. NatWest refused to confirm the accounts were not his because they are not allowed to provide details of accounts that are not his.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,214
    TSE writes: “Workers of the United Kingdom, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!”

    Do we need some sort of political party for workers in the UK? A Workers Party of Britain?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,627
    edited March 2024
    Foxy said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I am so old I remember when the Tories rightly criticised the Labour government for subsidising the public sector and the Trade Unions client base by transferring money from the private sector.

    I'm so old I can remember the Prime Minister standing in Downing Street and condemning George Galloway in a passage that has been edited out of the official record of his speech.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-address-on-extremism-1-march-2024
    What on earth is he on about?

    Reads like the random ramblings of a demented has-been. (The text is not helped by the ellipses, tbf.)

    I was reminded of the 'Ronald Reagan' speech in Two Tribes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,364
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    DWP fraud investigation wrongly threatens to stop disability benefits over 88p
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/dwp-fraud-investigation-wrongly-threatens-32249191

    Makes you proud to be British!

    But there is a Kafka-esque side to this, beyond the usual heartless Tories or incompetent civil service (delete as to taste). Someone reported to the DWP that hubby Chris is hiding assets in an ISA and bank account. DWP demanded proof they are not his. NatWest refused to confirm the accounts were not his because they are not allowed to provide details of accounts that are not his.

    Is this where British Gas customer service advisers go to top up their pensions?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,877
    Musk joins OpenAI lawsuit queue, says there's nothing 'open' about it
    GPT-4 has already reached AGI, and Microsoft shouldn't get its paws on it, court docs allege
    https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/01/elon_musk_sues_openai_gpt4/

    BIB for Leon!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,873
    bondegezou said:

    TSE writes: “Workers of the United Kingdom, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!”

    Do we need some sort of political party for workers in the UK? A Workers Party of Britain?

    No, solely down to the lack of an apostrophe in their name.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,214
    edited March 2024
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    bondegezou said:

    TSE writes: “Workers of the United Kingdom, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!”

    Do we need some sort of political party for workers in the UK? A Workers Party of Britain?

    No, solely down to the lack of an apostrophe in their name.
    It is a party of workers, not a party belonging to workers.

    See also Socialist Workers Party.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,873
    bondegezou said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    bondegezou said:

    TSE writes: “Workers of the United Kingdom, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!”

    Do we need some sort of political party for workers in the UK? A Workers Party of Britain?

    No, solely down to the lack of an apostrophe in their name.
    It is a party of workers, not a party belonging to workers.

    See also So Socialist Workers Party.
    I know, but my brain and eyes expect an apostrophe.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,246
    And the rain. It raineth
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,627
    That cross-over point looks to be pretty much right at the current State Retirement Age; perhaps the Tories should reduce SRA to 45 to give themselves a chance?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,770
    OldKingCole said:

    Jonathan said:

    The very best people get more left wing as they get older. A minority, but they’re the ones paying attention not distracted by comfort and baubles. You have to love an 80 year old who still wants to change the world.

    As one of the, I think, two posters who are 80+, thank you!
    I’ve never thought that the world was as good as it could be, and while there was a time when it was better for me, that was because I was fit and strong, not old and physically feeble. I want a better world for my children and grandchildren.
    That’s why I don’t vote Conservative.
    What a great post!
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    FPT

    Alanbrooke said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    The Conservative party has spent the last few years whipping up Culture War against "the enemy within" and it is the core of their electoral strategy. They have deliberately and consciously whipped up hate against minority Britons.

    Complaining about division and sectarianism is like a fish complaining that the water is wet.
    So Sunak against Asians ? Cleverly against blacks ? Shapps against jews ? Badenoch against women ?

    I suspect not.
    In 'civilisation' Kenneth Clarke concludes to the effect that, the basis of success for western civilisation is having confidence in itself. The enduring point is that there are many cultural forces that seek to destroy our confidence in ourselves which is an existential problem that remains 50 years on. The objection to much 'woke' thinking is that it is not constructive as it starts from the premise that western civilisation is evil and beyond redemption. If you have this mindset as a starting point then the situation is pretty hopeless.

    The point about Trump and the 'far right' is that they do exude a form of self confidence, they promise to eradicate these threats; Islamists will be deported, the negative cultural forces will be shut down through reform of institutions and universities. If your assessment of the situation is that we are in a crisis / emergency, then it has a certain appeal.
    I do not recognise your characterisation of "Woke". Any confident and secure culture can take criticism, and learn from it to be a better place.
    I accept that we have a different viewpoint on this - and there are also definitional issues with 'woke', so don't have anything to add. However I would recommend again the book 'cynical theories' by James Lindsey and Helen Pluckrose which sets out the opposing view.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,627
    Leon said:

    And the rain. It raineth

    Woke up to snow here this morning in Dorset.

    I blame Starmer and Davey.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    edited March 2024
    Starry said:

    The idea that all pensioners are middle class home owners, not living in poverty is nonsense. Perhaps those known by those working in the financial district of The City are all featherbed. My experience is that they lived in places where Thatcher's booming 80s were forgotten about. There was no nest to get them through the multiple recessions. Tax the rich. Not the poor on fixed incomes that are already struggling. Maybe TSE needs to visit pensioners north of the Watford Gap (and I don't mean the leafy suburbs of Chester!).

    It’s not a north south thing, there are of pensioners living modestly south of Watford. If you’re dependent on social care services, your not having a great time wherever you are at the moment.

    I remember meeting a lady in social housing, her house was damp and ivy has penetrated the window frame and gown on the inside wall. Subcontractors to the housing association had redecorated. The had painted emulsion over the ivy.

    This was on the south coast.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    Starry said:

    The idea that all pensioners are middle class home owners, not living in poverty is nonsense. Perhaps those known by those working in the financial district of The City are all featherbed. My experience is that they lived in places where Thatcher's booming 80s were forgotten about. There was no nest to get them through the multiple recessions. Tax the rich. Not the poor on fixed incomes that are already struggling. Maybe TSE needs to visit pensioners north of the Watford Gap (and I don't mean the leafy suburbs of Chester!).

    Yes, we know this, but the large majority of pensioners are homeowners - and both they and the rest of the grey vote (their ageing offspring, most of whom also managed to scramble onto the housing ladder, and who are looking forward to receiving both the state pension and enormous tax free capital gains through inheritance in the not too distant future) are heavily invested in the current settlement.

    There are excellent reasons why nobody will dare tax assets properly or get rid of the ruinously expensive triple lock, even as everything else crumbles around us: the grey vote controls the bulk of the wealth and the majority of the votes as well. Certainly a majority of all votes cast at the next election will come from people over the age of 55. It's also why Labour is going out of it's way to reassure the electorate that it will change as little of actual substance as possible: the winners of the existing settlement are legion and they won't tolerate being deprived of inflationary pensions and property prices. End of.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,877
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I am so old I remember when the Tories rightly criticised the Labour government for subsidising the public sector and the Trade Unions client base by transferring money from the private sector.

    I'm so old I can remember when we had year-on-year productivity growth.

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02791/

    Two words: George Osborne.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,226
    OldKingCole said:

    Jonathan said:

    The very best people get more left wing as they get older. A minority, but they’re the ones paying attention not distracted by comfort and baubles. You have to love an 80 year old who still wants to change the world.

    As one of the, I think, two posters who are 80+, thank you!
    I’ve never thought that the world was as good as it could be, and while there was a time when it was better for me, that was because I was fit and strong, not old and physically feeble. I want a better world for my children and grandchildren.
    That’s why I don’t vote Conservative.
    There are at least five of us who are 80+. I'm 81 next month.

    I'm a Red Lib Dem who has become more anti-Tory as I've matured.
    And tomorrow I'm off for a week of skiing in France so I won't be around as much.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,218
    Jonathan said:

    So, what do the Tories do to attract younger voters, say those who are about to retire? There’s nothing aspirational about becoming a Tory. All parties are weird to an extent, but this current incarnation of the Tory party is bizarre.

    By doing the sort of U-turns that a party can only do in opposition, and probably only wants to do after a couple of defeats.

    And they will have to be biggies, on social attitudes as much as economic ones. Since 1979, the Conservatives have done well by tracking the boomers and giving them what they want. That strategy is about to stop working.

    In related news, here's some evidence of voting habits setting early-ish;

    One thing I've just noticed is the seeming progression of that Liberal bump from 74 to 97, roughly as those first time 74 voters age. Looking at wider data, seems to fade mid-2000s. Did that election create a cohort of abnormally Liberal voters?

    https://twitter.com/Dylan_Difford/status/1763677561597415825
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,246
    Jonathan said:

    The very best people get more left wing as they get older. A minority, but they’re the ones paying attention not distracted by comfort and baubles. You have to love an 80 year old who still wants to change the world.

    Technically, this process is known to neurologists as “dementia.”

    Or “dementia praecox” in middle aged types like you. A truly sad affliction and you have my sympathies.

    In the very young it is quite healthy albeit unsightly and is more akin to acne
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,242
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I am so old I remember when the Tories rightly criticised the Labour government for subsidising the public sector and the Trade Unions client base by transferring money from the private sector.

    I'm so old I can remember when we had year-on-year productivity growth.

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02791/

    Two words: George Osborne.
    I am old enough to remember when UK imports and exports grew.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6d044f4b-18a8-4987-b39e-804778a85747
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,248
    edited March 2024
    Benpointer said:

    Leon said:

    And the rain. It raineth

    Woke up to snow here this morning in Dorset.

    I blame Starmer and Davey.
    "Snowflakes" are so woke. Perhaps we need another Downing Street declaration condemning woke snow.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,877
    Stuartinromford said:

    Jonathan said:

    So, what do the Tories do to attract younger voters, say those who are about to retire? There’s nothing aspirational about becoming a Tory. All parties are weird to an extent, but this current incarnation of the Tory party is bizarre.

    By doing the sort of U-turns that a party can only do in opposition, and probably only wants to do after a couple of defeats.

    And they will have to be biggies, on social attitudes as much as economic ones. Since 1979, the Conservatives have done well by tracking the boomers and giving them what they want. That strategy is about to stop working.

    In related news, here's some evidence of voting habits setting early-ish;

    One thing I've just noticed is the seeming progression of that Liberal bump from 74 to 97, roughly as those first time 74 voters age. Looking at wider data, seems to fade mid-2000s. Did that election create a cohort of abnormally Liberal voters?

    https://twitter.com/Dylan_Difford/status/1763677561597415825
    No and yes. As I've said before, it is not that voters move to the right but that the zeitgeist moves to the left. The Conservative government moving to the right does not find a rich seam of votes there because voters have stayed where they were.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,242
    Stuartinromford said:

    Jonathan said:

    So, what do the Tories do to attract younger voters, say those who are about to retire? There’s nothing aspirational about becoming a Tory. All parties are weird to an extent, but this current incarnation of the Tory party is bizarre.

    By doing the sort of U-turns that a party can only do in opposition, and probably only wants to do after a couple of defeats.

    And they will have to be biggies, on social attitudes as much as economic ones. Since 1979, the Conservatives have done well by tracking the boomers and giving them what they want. That strategy is about to stop working.

    In related news, here's some evidence of voting habits setting early-ish;

    One thing I've just noticed is the seeming progression of that Liberal bump from 74 to 97, roughly as those first time 74 voters age. Looking at wider data, seems to fade mid-2000s. Did that election create a cohort of abnormally Liberal voters?

    https://twitter.com/Dylan_Difford/status/1763677561597415825
    The voting pattern with age is a relatively recent phenomenon and changes quite a bit between election:



    Though Tories will need to think long and hard about how to fix it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,505
    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    FPT

    Alanbrooke said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    The Conservative party has spent the last few years whipping up Culture War against "the enemy within" and it is the core of their electoral strategy. They have deliberately and consciously whipped up hate against minority Britons.

    Complaining about division and sectarianism is like a fish complaining that the water is wet.
    So Sunak against Asians ? Cleverly against blacks ? Shapps against jews ? Badenoch against women ?

    I suspect not.
    In 'civilisation' Kenneth Clarke concludes to the effect that, the basis of success for western civilisation is having confidence in itself. The enduring point is that there are many cultural forces that seek to destroy our confidence in ourselves which is an existential problem that remains 50 years on. The objection to much 'woke' thinking is that it is not constructive as it starts from the premise that western civilisation is evil and beyond redemption. If you have this mindset as a starting point then the situation is pretty hopeless.

    The point about Trump and the 'far right' is that they do exude a form of self confidence, they promise to eradicate these threats; Islamists will be deported, the negative cultural forces will be shut down through reform of institutions and universities. If your assessment of the situation is that we are in a crisis / emergency, then it has a certain appeal.
    I do not recognise your characterisation of "Woke". Any confident and secure culture can take criticism, and learn from it to be a better place.
    @darkage ’s critique is certainly true of some left/‘woke’ thinking - but it is, I think, also true of quite a lot of thinking on the right.

    It’s a fair point, though, about the appeal of self confidence - however vile the politics itself might be. As demonstrated by everyone from the Bolsheviks to the Nazis.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    Jonathan said:

    So, what do the Tories do to attract younger voters, say those who are about to retire? There’s nothing aspirational about becoming a Tory. All parties are weird to an extent, but this current incarnation of the Tory party is bizarre.

    The feed the aspiration to retire. As will Labour when they get in. This is the point at which I remind the site once again that pensioner incomes after taking account of housing costs exceed those of working age households.

    There's nothing to be gained from work unless you earn, inherit or are gifted enough to buy a house, which means you can afford to retire and plan a lifestyle of new cars every year and cruise holidays to the Amalfi Coast. Poorer people have to spend virtually everything on subsistence (food, fuel and rent) and can therefore look forward to a future of living in poverty and working until they drop down dead. This is how society chooses to show them that they are regarded as worthless.

    Working life is just a slog you're meant to endure to earn retirement. If you can't afford retirement, tough.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    edited March 2024
    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The very best people get more left wing as they get older. A minority, but they’re the ones paying attention not distracted by comfort and baubles. You have to love an 80 year old who still wants to change the world.

    Technically, this process is known to neurologists as “dementia.”

    Or “dementia praecox” in middle aged types like you. A truly sad affliction and you have my sympathies.

    In the very young it is quite healthy albeit unsightly and is more akin to acne
    Having supported my father through dementia for ten years until his death last year and with Mikes recent news, I find insults/jokes using dementia in pretty bad taste. Even for Leon!

    Fear not, I am not upset. My old man would have out thought you even with advanced vascular dementia. He had type of distilled intelligence who could cut a man down to size with a severe look or a single word. Don’t ask me how I know. 😉
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,246
    Foxy said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I am so old I remember when the Tories rightly criticised the Labour government for subsidising the public sector and the Trade Unions client base by transferring money from the private sector.

    I'm so old I can remember when we had year-on-year productivity growth.

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02791/

    Two words: George Osborne.
    I am old enough to remember when UK imports and exports grew.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6d044f4b-18a8-4987-b39e-804778a85747
    I am old enough to remember when we slaved under the vile, undemocratic yoke of the unelected Eurocrats, and had to give a fuck what “Ursula von der Leyen” thinks about anything

    Future generations will look back on this period as a dire aberration in 3600 years of noble British independence
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 1,015
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/chancellor-backs-british-business-with-pension-fund-reforms

    Chaos coming in the Defined Contribution Pension market - If funds have a bad year will not be able to accept new contributions and have to invest in UK business -what a UK business is not defined.. They are doing well currently because they invest in Apple and Meta -non UK companies.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,246
    The biography of Simon Bolivar is brilliant. Mainly because various countries keep trying to go to war with England and get the shit beaten out of them. And then they creep about in fear of our naval wrath

    Its like looking at photos of yourself 30 years ago when you were really quite good looking

    Sigh
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,627
    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    FPT

    Alanbrooke said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    The Conservative party has spent the last few years whipping up Culture War against "the enemy within" and it is the core of their electoral strategy. They have deliberately and consciously whipped up hate against minority Britons.

    Complaining about division and sectarianism is like a fish complaining that the water is wet.
    So Sunak against Asians ? Cleverly against blacks ? Shapps against jews ? Badenoch against women ?

    I suspect not.
    In 'civilisation' Kenneth Clarke concludes to the effect that, the basis of success for western civilisation is having confidence in itself. The enduring point is that there are many cultural forces that seek to destroy our confidence in ourselves which is an existential problem that remains 50 years on. The objection to much 'woke' thinking is that it is not constructive as it starts from the premise that western civilisation is evil and beyond redemption. If you have this mindset as a starting point then the situation is pretty hopeless.

    The point about Trump and the 'far right' is that they do exude a form of self confidence, they promise to eradicate these threats; Islamists will be deported, the negative cultural forces will be shut down through reform of institutions and universities. If your assessment of the situation is that we are in a crisis / emergency, then it has a certain appeal.
    I do not recognise your characterisation of "Woke". Any confident and secure culture can take criticism, and learn from it to be a better place.
    What puzzles me is darkage's view that 'woke' thinking... starts from the premise that western civilisation is evil and beyond redemption.

    Surely if 'woke' has any meaning it is an awareness of prejudice and discrimination; awareness as in awake, leading to 'woke'.

    I appreciate that some on the Right have manipulated 'woke' to cover a multitude of attitudes and behaviours, many of which have very little widespread support on the Left. 'Woke' is used as a catch-all to summarise all their fears and dislikes, but the point is it's a construct of the Right.

    So far, fair enough. The issue for me is the 'logic' that goes: you are on the Left; Left = Woke; Woke = all these extreme positions; therefore: you are an extremist threatening Western civilisation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,246
    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The very best people get more left wing as they get older. A minority, but they’re the ones paying attention not distracted by comfort and baubles. You have to love an 80 year old who still wants to change the world.

    Technically, this process is known to neurologists as “dementia.”

    Or “dementia praecox” in middle aged types like you. A truly sad affliction and you have my sympathies.

    In the very young it is quite healthy albeit unsightly and is more akin to acne
    Having supported my father through dementia for ten years until his death last year and with Mikes recent news, I find insults/jokes using dementia in pretty bad taste. Even for Leon!

    Fear not, I am not upset. My old man would have out thought you even with advanced vascular dementia. He had type of distilled intelligence who could cut a man down to size with a severe look or a single word. Don’t ask me how I know. 😉
    My mum is dying of dementia right now. She would call fie and scorn on your snowflakey nonsense, and then she would call you Brian and ask if you’re here to sweep the chimney
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,242
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    FPT

    Alanbrooke said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    The Conservative party has spent the last few years whipping up Culture War against "the enemy within" and it is the core of their electoral strategy. They have deliberately and consciously whipped up hate against minority Britons.

    Complaining about division and sectarianism is like a fish complaining that the water is wet.
    So Sunak against Asians ? Cleverly against blacks ? Shapps against jews ? Badenoch against women ?

    I suspect not.
    In 'civilisation' Kenneth Clarke concludes to the effect that, the basis of success for western civilisation is having confidence in itself. The enduring point is that there are many cultural forces that seek to destroy our confidence in ourselves which is an existential problem that remains 50 years on. The objection to much 'woke' thinking is that it is not constructive as it starts from the premise that western civilisation is evil and beyond redemption. If you have this mindset as a starting point then the situation is pretty hopeless.

    The point about Trump and the 'far right' is that they do exude a form of self confidence, they promise to eradicate these threats; Islamists will be deported, the negative cultural forces will be shut down through reform of institutions and universities. If your assessment of the situation is that we are in a crisis / emergency, then it has a certain appeal.
    I do not recognise your characterisation of "Woke". Any confident and secure culture can take criticism, and learn from it to be a better place.
    @darkage ’s critique is certainly true of some left/‘woke’ thinking - but it is, I think, also true of quite a lot of thinking on the right.

    It’s a fair point, though, about the appeal of self confidence - however vile the politics itself might be. As demonstrated by everyone from the Bolsheviks to the Nazis.
    I think there are at least as many on the right who find fault the country and people as on the left.

    Being aware of what is wrong with the place is the first step in improving it, whatever your politics.

    The idea that we should reject all cultural and historical criticism is not self confidence, it is insecure arrogance. It makes for an eggshell society that collapses quickly.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,661
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I am so old I remember when the Tories rightly criticised the Labour government for subsidising the public sector and the Trade Unions client base by transferring money from the private sector.

    I'm so old I can remember the Prime Minister standing in solidarity with protestors who blocked the roads. About a week ago, wasn't it?

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/mar/01/tories-accused-of-hypocrisy-farmers-protests-crackdown-climate-gaza
    I'm so old I remember when Prime Ministers stood on the same podium (well, tarmac) as extremist fanatics and conspiracy theorists. Real PMs too, not LotOs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/25/sunak-stands-with-net-zero-and-climate-conspiracy-group-at-farming-protest
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,246
    edited March 2024
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The very best people get more left wing as they get older. A minority, but they’re the ones paying attention not distracted by comfort and baubles. You have to love an 80 year old who still wants to change the world.

    Technically, this process is known to neurologists as “dementia.”

    Or “dementia praecox” in middle aged types like you. A truly sad affliction and you have my sympathies.

    In the very young it is quite healthy albeit unsightly and is more akin to acne
    Perhaps PB isn't the best place to be making jokes about dementia, particularly in light of recent events.
    Then I shall restrict myself entirely to well composed photos of champagne flutes with fine perlage
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,627
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I am so old I remember when the Tories rightly criticised the Labour government for subsidising the public sector and the Trade Unions client base by transferring money from the private sector.

    I'm so old I can remember when we had year-on-year productivity growth.

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02791/

    Two words: George Osborne.
    I am old enough to remember when UK imports and exports grew.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6d044f4b-18a8-4987-b39e-804778a85747
    I am old enough to remember when we slaved under the vile, undemocratic yoke of the unelected Eurocrats, and had to give a fuck what “Ursula von der Leyen” thinks about anything

    Future generations will look back on this period as a dire aberration in 3600 years of noble British independence
    Only 3,600 years? Who was in charge before the noble British/Roman/Anglo-Saxon/Normans began their long period of independence, of never succumbing to the yoke of a foreign invader?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,627
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I am so old I remember when the Tories rightly criticised the Labour government for subsidising the public sector and the Trade Unions client base by transferring money from the private sector.

    I'm so old I can remember when we had year-on-year productivity growth.

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02791/

    Two words: George Osborne.
    That's another graph Labour need to use in their election campaign posters. Really they could create a whole series which simply show: 1997-2010 - not too shabby; 2010-2024 - fecking awful.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,661
    Benpointer said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I am so old I remember when the Tories rightly criticised the Labour government for subsidising the public sector and the Trade Unions client base by transferring money from the private sector.

    I'm so old I can remember when we had year-on-year productivity growth.

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02791/

    Two words: George Osborne.
    I am old enough to remember when UK imports and exports grew.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6d044f4b-18a8-4987-b39e-804778a85747
    I am old enough to remember when we slaved under the vile, undemocratic yoke of the unelected Eurocrats, and had to give a fuck what “Ursula von der Leyen” thinks about anything

    Future generations will look back on this period as a dire aberration in 3600 years of noble British independence
    Only 3,600 years? Who was in charge before the noble British/Roman/Anglo-Saxon/Normans began their long period of independence, of never succumbing to the yoke of a foreign invader?
    Bit racist, too. Beakerist, or was that the lot before?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,661
    DavidL said:

    Jonathan said:

    So, what do the Tories do to attract younger voters, say those who are about to retire? There’s nothing aspirational about becoming a Tory. All parties are weird to an extent, but this current incarnation of the Tory party is bizarre.

    As a sort of fellow traveller with the Tory Party what I would be looking for is a party that believes in aspiration, progress and opportunity. That wants equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes. That recognises that the role of the State is to help those who need it, not to nanny, bully or direct those who don't. Who believe in sound money, low inflation and low debts so that we do not spend our children's inheritance.

    There will always be plenty of space for a centre right party in this country, indeed I would go so far as to say it is the natural party of government of this country. I am just not sure that the current Conservative party is it.
    Balance of payments, a functioning legal system, proper water and sewerage, don't forget those.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,627
    Mexicanpete said:

    Benpointer said:

    Leon said:

    And the rain. It raineth

    Woke up to snow here this morning in Dorset.

    I blame Starmer and Davey.
    "Snowflakes" are so woke. Perhaps we need another Downing Street declaration condemning woke snow.
    You've got me there Mexican. Simplifying it for PB-rightists:

    Woke up to snow here this morning in Dorset.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    A really good thread @TSE

    Succint, penetrating, incisive. In a few words you have nailed it.

    Unless Labour screw it up, which they’re perfectly capable of doing, I’m beginning to think this will a long time in the political wilderness for the Conservatives. We could be looking at two decades.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,311
    Barnesian said:

    OldKingCole said:

    Jonathan said:

    The very best people get more left wing as they get older. A minority, but they’re the ones paying attention not distracted by comfort and baubles. You have to love an 80 year old who still wants to change the world.

    As one of the, I think, two posters who are 80+, thank you!
    I’ve never thought that the world was as good as it could be, and while there was a time when it was better for me, that was because I was fit and strong, not old and physically feeble. I want a better world for my children and grandchildren.
    That’s why I don’t vote Conservative.
    There are at least five of us who are 80+. I'm 81 next month.

    I'm a Red Lib Dem who has become more anti-Tory as I've matured.
    And tomorrow I'm off for a week of skiing in France so I won't be around as much.
    Always willing to learn. Glad to find out both that there are at least five over 80’s and that you are fit and well.
    A word of warning, though. I was reasonably fit at 80, but, looking back, there were signs of problems in the future. By 84 my general fitness was significantly worse.
    So enjoy your skiing and make some memories!
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,776
    darkage said:

    FPT

    Alanbrooke said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    The Conservative party has spent the last few years whipping up Culture War against "the enemy within" and it is the core of their electoral strategy. They have deliberately and consciously whipped up hate against minority Britons.

    Complaining about division and sectarianism is like a fish complaining that the water is wet.
    So Sunak against Asians ? Cleverly against blacks ? Shapps against jews ? Badenoch against women ?

    I suspect not.
    In 'civilisation' Kenneth Clarke concludes to the effect that, the basis of success for western civilisation is having confidence in itself. The enduring point is that there are many cultural forces that seek to destroy our confidence in ourselves which is an existential problem that remains 50 years on. The objection to much 'woke' thinking is that it is not constructive as it starts from the premise that western civilisation is evil and beyond redemption. If you have this mindset as a starting point then the situation is pretty hopeless.

    The point about Trump and the 'far right' is that they do exude a form of self confidence, they promise to eradicate these threats; Islamists will be deported, the negative cultural forces will be shut down through reform of institutions and universities. If your assessment of the situation is that we are in a crisis / emergency, then it has a certain appeal.
    I largely disagree with that.

    Ignoring the extremes at both ends, the broader (middle of the road) "anti-woke" narrative is the more destructive. It's a retreat from change and improvement, a fear of admitting to any problems and challenges, and a lack of confidence in our ability to rise up and doing anything about the real issues we have.

    As TSE points out, the right are at their best when they are aspirational, facing up to challenges and opportunities (Mrs T and the hole in the ozone layer, unemployment, technology). That's why I was a Tory member through the 1990s and 2000s.

    The (centre) right has become so intellectually bankrupt that they'd rather pretend these issues don't exist (because the only proposed solutions are coming from left of centre) rather than come up with solutions of their own.

    The Tories need to get the boot and come back with some people capable of thinking about the problems we face rather than falling back on scapegoating and "if we just walk slowly towards the machine guns this time we'll break through" austerity.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    Sunak has decided that stoking division and then pretending to offer solutions/ pretending to care will help the Tories improve their polling .

    This is his problem , if you don’t like him then you’re just going to be deeply cynical of his motives given his recent record and who he chose to have in his cabinet .

    And there are a lot of people who loathe Sunak and will come to the same conclusion .
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,627
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The very best people get more left wing as they get older. A minority, but they’re the ones paying attention not distracted by comfort and baubles. You have to love an 80 year old who still wants to change the world.

    Technically, this process is known to neurologists as “dementia.”

    Or “dementia praecox” in middle aged types like you. A truly sad affliction and you have my sympathies.

    In the very young it is quite healthy albeit unsightly and is more akin to acne
    Perhaps PB isn't the best place to be making jokes about dementia, particularly in light of recent events.
    An arse is always going to spew shit.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    p.s. Driving to the airport with my hitherto tory-voting friend the other day, we were swerving around pot holes. Actually, no, we were swerving around craters.

    With uncharacteristic venom she gesticulated and said, 'this is what people care about, the shambolic state of the country not some stupid red herring about a tiny number of migrants.’

    The “anti-woke” mantra will be looked back on as a bizarre and disingenuous distraction from people’s real concerns.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,776
    Benpointer said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I am so old I remember when the Tories rightly criticised the Labour government for subsidising the public sector and the Trade Unions client base by transferring money from the private sector.

    I'm so old I can remember when we had year-on-year productivity growth.

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02791/

    Two words: George Osborne.
    That's another graph Labour need to use in their election campaign posters. Really they could create a whole series which simply show: 1997-2010 - not too shabby; 2010-2024 - fecking awful.
    We all know that the only graphs that work are the special LD ones.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,951
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Jonathan said:

    So, what do the Tories do to attract younger voters, say those who are about to retire? There’s nothing aspirational about becoming a Tory. All parties are weird to an extent, but this current incarnation of the Tory party is bizarre.

    As a sort of fellow traveller with the Tory Party what I would be looking for is a party that believes in aspiration, progress and opportunity. That wants equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes. That recognises that the role of the State is to help those who need it, not to nanny, bully or direct those who don't. Who believe in sound money, low inflation and low debts so that we do not spend our children's inheritance.

    There will always be plenty of space for a centre right party in this country, indeed I would go so far as to say it is the natural party of government of this country. I am just not sure that the current Conservative party is it.
    Sounds more like the Lib Dems to me, but I agree.

    I cannot see myself voting Conservative again. I simply don't agree with their world view.
    My problems with the current Tory party are many but I agree with you about their world view.

    They are far too focused on protecting the haves and seem cruelly indifferent to the have nots. The penal levels of tax on income can only be offset by those with the capital to make high pension contributions or contrive to make their profits into capital gains instead. They protect wealth not income. Their monetary discipline is almost non existent. They think the solution to our difficulties lies in tax cuts rather than investing to help those in need. It is the worst traits of Conservatism with few to none of the redeeming features. It's disappointing.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    nico679 said:

    Sunak has decided that stoking division and then pretending to offer solutions/ pretending to care will help the Tories improve their polling .

    This is his problem , if you don’t like him then you’re just going to be deeply cynical of his motives given his recent record and who he chose to have in his cabinet .

    And there are a lot of people who loathe Sunak and will come to the same conclusion .

    In a different way we have both just said the same thing x
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,627
    mwadams said:

    Benpointer said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I am so old I remember when the Tories rightly criticised the Labour government for subsidising the public sector and the Trade Unions client base by transferring money from the private sector.

    I'm so old I can remember when we had year-on-year productivity growth.

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02791/

    Two words: George Osborne.
    That's another graph Labour need to use in their election campaign posters. Really they could create a whole series which simply show: 1997-2010 - not too shabby; 2010-2024 - fecking awful.
    We all know that the only graphs that work are the special LD ones.
    Lol. As I posted that, I also pondered if graphs are a bit of a switch-off to a significant proportion of the population. I dunno, they are used a lot in the media - do they work in getting a message across?

    Can't hurt is my view.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,218
    Heathener said:

    A really good thread @TSE

    Succint, penetrating, incisive. In a few words you have nailed it.

    Unless Labour screw it up, which they’re perfectly capable of doing, I’m beginning to think this will a long time in the political wilderness for the Conservatives. We could be looking at two decades.

    And if it's two decades, that's probably it. The Conservative electorate, such as it is, will have shuffled off its mortal coil.

    As for what replaces it, who knows? It could be fusion with the Faragists, or it could be a recreation of the 2010 coalition in a single party. Or something else, but I'm not clear what.

    Either way, FPTP only really allows for two parties to thrive.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,776
    pigeon said:

    Jonathan said:

    So, what do the Tories do to attract younger voters, say those who are about to retire? There’s nothing aspirational about becoming a Tory. All parties are weird to an extent, but this current incarnation of the Tory party is bizarre.

    The feed the aspiration to retire. As will Labour when they get in. This is the point at which I remind the site once again that pensioner incomes after taking account of housing costs exceed those of working age households.

    There's nothing to be gained from work unless you earn, inherit or are gifted enough to buy a house, which means you can afford to retire and plan a lifestyle of new cars every year and cruise holidays to the Amalfi Coast. Poorer people have to spend virtually everything on subsistence (food, fuel and rent) and can therefore look forward to a future of living in poverty and working until they drop down dead. This is how society chooses to show them that they are regarded as worthless.

    Working life is just a slog you're meant to endure to earn retirement. If you can't afford retirement, tough.
    The notion that younger people (under 50s) believe they are going to be able to retire comfortably is an entertaining one. And older but not yet retired people 50s-60s already *know* they are not going to be retiring any time soon. Is it any surprise that crossover point has reached 68?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,951
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Jonathan said:

    So, what do the Tories do to attract younger voters, say those who are about to retire? There’s nothing aspirational about becoming a Tory. All parties are weird to an extent, but this current incarnation of the Tory party is bizarre.

    As a sort of fellow traveller with the Tory Party what I would be looking for is a party that believes in aspiration, progress and opportunity. That wants equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes. That recognises that the role of the State is to help those who need it, not to nanny, bully or direct those who don't. Who believe in sound money, low inflation and low debts so that we do not spend our children's inheritance.

    There will always be plenty of space for a centre right party in this country, indeed I would go so far as to say it is the natural party of government of this country. I am just not sure that the current Conservative party is it.
    Balance of payments, a functioning legal system, proper water and sewerage, don't forget those.
    Oh I don't think I will ever forget the balance of payments. But yes, I agree.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,641
    Benpointer said:

    Jonathan said:

    The very best people get more left wing as they get older. A minority, but they’re the ones paying attention not distracted by comfort and baubles. You have to love an 80 year old who still wants to change the world.

    I concur. Mrs. P. is a fine example.

    Farmer's daughter, voted Tory when I met her, now well to the left of me, fundamentally because she is a lovely person who cares about others and the world in general.
    Are you married to my wife?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,242
    edited March 2024
    Icarus said:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/chancellor-backs-british-business-with-pension-fund-reforms

    Chaos coming in the Defined Contribution Pension market - If funds have a bad year will not be able to accept new contributions and have to invest in UK business -what a UK business is not defined.. They are doing well currently because they invest in Apple and Meta -non UK companies.

    I am old enough to remember when we didn't have government directing private citizens where to invest their savings. PM Starmer's Socialist government is ruining the country, with only Sunak as a voice in the wilderness calling him out for it at PMQs.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,253
    DavidL said:

    Jonathan said:

    So, what do the Tories do to attract younger voters, say those who are about to retire? There’s nothing aspirational about becoming a Tory. All parties are weird to an extent, but this current incarnation of the Tory party is bizarre.

    As a sort of fellow traveller with the Tory Party what I would be looking for is a party that believes in aspiration, progress and opportunity. That wants equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes. That recognises that the role of the State is to help those who need it, not to nanny, bully or direct those who don't. Who believe in sound money, low inflation and low debts so that we do not spend our children's inheritance.

    There will always be plenty of space for a centre right party in this country, indeed I would go so far as to say it is the natural party of government of this country. I am just not sure that the current Conservative party is it.
    Good morning

    I am on the same page and certainly the ERG and other right wing Tories are not

    However, I see nothing in Starmer's offering that does not continue the pandering to pensioners as he was the first to confirm the triple lock will be a manifesto commitment for his term in office when in truth it is unsustainable

    Indeed apart from non dom and vat on private schools, and even non dom may be hijacked by Hunt, just where are the differences especially in Reeves fiscal discipline affirmed every day

    I also fear for those in rental properties as they near retirement as unlike mortgagees their mortgages are likely to be paid by the time they retire, but for renters there is no prospects of mitigating their rent when they retire

    As @DavidL says there is a place for a centre right party but that party may well be quite a long time away and the fear must be if Starmer fails the right will rise as evidenced in Europe

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,173
    Benpointer said:

    Leon said:

    And the rain. It raineth

    Woke up to snow here this morning in Dorset.

    I blame Starmer and Davey.
    Proof that 1st March does indeed mark the start of Spring.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,945
    nico679 said:

    Sunak has decided that stoking division and then pretending to offer solutions/ pretending to care will help the Tories improve their polling .

    This is his problem , if you don’t like him then you’re just going to be deeply cynical of his motives given his recent record and who he chose to have in his cabinet .

    And there are a lot of people who loathe Sunak and will come to the same conclusion .

    It might help if he had actually done something about any of the issues he keep raising.

    But he hasn't.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,253
    Jonathan said:

    A prescription for conservative recovery

    Switch off gb news
    Forget the conspiracy theories
    Sack the nutters
    Go hard on corruption and favours for mates. Jail people who milk the system
    End the war against doctors and institutions
    Ditch ideological positions and dog whistle politics

    Find a simple message around making hard work and enterprise pay.
    Reward work, tax the idle rich.

    I have not watched GB news nor do I intend to
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    Heading off on one of the world’s great railway journeys shortly but just to add that the tories are also wrong to assume that bribing home owning pensioners is an infallible vote winner.

    Scroll back up this page, or follow recent events on pb, and you will all know that health is rightly a major concern as people get older.

    The NHS is in a terrible state. The ideological wealthy Right seem to want to run it into the ground.

    The rest of us, which is 99% of the electorate, would rather like the NHS to be fit for purpose once again. And we don’t mind paying a bit more if that fixes it.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    A prescription for conservative recovery

    Switch off gb news
    Forget the conspiracy theories
    Sack the nutters
    Go hard on corruption and favours for mates. Jail people who milk the system
    End the war against doctors and institutions
    Ditch ideological positions and dog whistle politics

    Find a simple message around making hard work and enterprise pay.
    Reward work, tax the idle rich.

    I have not watched GB news nor do I intend to
    Congratulations. It’s a cesspit. You’re on the right path.

  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,736
    edited March 2024
    I think in some ways people still become more left wing as they get older. They care more about most public services because they use them more, and become more comfortable with people (of working age) being taxed more. They also become more socially liberal, just not as much as the generations below them.

    Your average “racist uncle” who makes inappropriate comments to the ladies and talks jokingly about homos is still probably much more enlightened and/or circumspect on these things than he would have been as a younger man in the 1970s.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,559
    Starry said:

    The idea that all pensioners are middle class home owners, not living in poverty is nonsense. Perhaps those known by those working in the financial district of The City are all featherbed. My experience is that they lived in places where Thatcher's booming 80s were forgotten about. There was no nest to get them through the multiple recessions. Tax the rich. Not the poor on fixed incomes that are already struggling. Maybe TSE needs to visit pensioners north of the Watford Gap (and I don't mean the leafy suburbs of Chester!).

    Agree, plenty of rich whingers on here always berating pensioners and claiming they are loaded just because their parents are loaded. Pathetic.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,675
    darkage said:

    FPT

    Alanbrooke said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    The Conservative party has spent the last few years whipping up Culture War against "the enemy within" and it is the core of their electoral strategy. They have deliberately and consciously whipped up hate against minority Britons.

    Complaining about division and sectarianism is like a fish complaining that the water is wet.
    So Sunak against Asians ? Cleverly against blacks ? Shapps against jews ? Badenoch against women ?

    I suspect not.
    In 'civilisation' Kenneth Clarke concludes to the effect that, the basis of success for western civilisation is having confidence in itself. The enduring point is that there are many cultural forces that seek to destroy our confidence in ourselves which is an existential problem that remains 50 years on. The objection to much 'woke' thinking is that it is not constructive as it starts from the premise that western civilisation is evil and beyond redemption. If you have this mindset as a starting point then the situation is pretty hopeless.

    The point about Trump and the 'far right' is that they do exude a form of self confidence, they promise to eradicate these threats; Islamists will be deported, the negative cultural forces will be shut down through reform of institutions and universities. If your assessment of the situation is that we are in a crisis / emergency, then it has a certain appeal.
    The objection to anti woke thinking is it starts from the premise that western civilisation is so weak that it will fall apart at the slightest criticism.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,246
    Heathener said:

    Heading off on one of the world’s great railway journeys shortly but just to add that the tories are also wrong to assume that bribing home owning pensioners is an infallible vote winner.

    Scroll back up this page, or follow recent events on pb, and you will all know that health is rightly a major concern as people get older.

    The NHS is in a terrible state. The ideological wealthy Right seem to want to run it into the ground.

    The rest of us, which is 99% of the electorate, would rather like the NHS to be fit for purpose once again. And we don’t mind paying a bit more if that fixes it.

    Don’t forget to take a thermos of pre-boiled water. These trains can charge over 3p for a cup of the hot stuff
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,627
    Icarus said:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/chancellor-backs-british-business-with-pension-fund-reforms

    Chaos coming in the Defined Contribution Pension market - If funds have a bad year will not be able to accept new contributions and have to invest in UK business -what a UK business is not defined.. They are doing well currently because they invest in Apple and Meta -non UK companies.

    It doesn't actually say that pensions funds won't be able to invest abroad does it, just that they will have to disclose. Most companies and members will just shrug their shoulders.

    The press release does include this gem though:

    The government’s auto enrolment rollout has driven a huge growth in the amount of investment entering UK pension funds, from less than £90 billion in 2012 to around £116 billion in 2022.

    £90bn in 2012 = £114bn in 2022 after inflation. So the 'huge growth' is 1.75% over 10 years.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,945
    "An unverifiable story records that [Galloway] once asked Donald Dewar, the late Scottish Secretary and First Minister, why people took such an instant dislike to him. “Because it saves time, George,” replied Donald."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/01/george-galloways-return-is-a-nightmare-for-keir-starmer/
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    edited March 2024
    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Heading off on one of the world’s great railway journeys shortly but just to add that the tories are also wrong to assume that bribing home owning pensioners is an infallible vote winner.

    Scroll back up this page, or follow recent events on pb, and you will all know that health is rightly a major concern as people get older.

    The NHS is in a terrible state. The ideological wealthy Right seem to want to run it into the ground.

    The rest of us, which is 99% of the electorate, would rather like the NHS to be fit for purpose once again. And we don’t mind paying a bit more if that fixes it.

    Don’t forget to take a thermos of pre-boiled water. These trains can charge over 3p for a cup of the hot stuff
    You’re such a dick.


  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,627
    malcolmg said:

    Starry said:

    The idea that all pensioners are middle class home owners, not living in poverty is nonsense. Perhaps those known by those working in the financial district of The City are all featherbed. My experience is that they lived in places where Thatcher's booming 80s were forgotten about. There was no nest to get them through the multiple recessions. Tax the rich. Not the poor on fixed incomes that are already struggling. Maybe TSE needs to visit pensioners north of the Watford Gap (and I don't mean the leafy suburbs of Chester!).

    Agree, plenty of rich whingers on here always berating pensioners and claiming they are loaded just because their parents are loaded. Pathetic.
    Says the chief supporter of the 'something for nothing (for me)' society.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,661
    edited March 2024
    Jonathan said:

    The very best people get more left wing as they get older. A minority, but they’re the ones paying attention not distracted by comfort and baubles. You have to love an 80 year old who still wants to change the world.

    I've bcome less right wing as I get older - though still centrist dad. Not 80 yet by a long shot. But there's something in the argument here today that the Tories have dragged the notion of the right wing off the graph and down the page.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,253
    Heathener said:

    Heading off on one of the world’s great railway journeys shortly but just to add that the tories are also wrong to assume that bribing home owning pensioners is an infallible vote winner.

    Scroll back up this page, or follow recent events on pb, and you will all know that health is rightly a major concern as people get older.

    The NHS is in a terrible state. The ideological wealthy Right seem to want to run it into the ground.

    The rest of us, which is 99% of the electorate, would rather like the NHS to be fit for purpose once again. And we don’t mind paying a bit more if that fixes it.

    Which railway as in our travelling days we loved railway travel and did the Ghan and the blue train in South Africa, have done Moscow to St Petersberg and even the South Island of New Zealand rather quaint Tranz Alpine train
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,661
    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    darkage said:

    FPT

    Alanbrooke said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    The Conservative party has spent the last few years whipping up Culture War against "the enemy within" and it is the core of their electoral strategy. They have deliberately and consciously whipped up hate against minority Britons.

    Complaining about division and sectarianism is like a fish complaining that the water is wet.
    So Sunak against Asians ? Cleverly against blacks ? Shapps against jews ? Badenoch against women ?

    I suspect not.
    In 'civilisation' Kenneth Clarke concludes to the effect that, the basis of success for western civilisation is having confidence in itself. The enduring point is that there are many cultural forces that seek to destroy our confidence in ourselves which is an existential problem that remains 50 years on. The objection to much 'woke' thinking is that it is not constructive as it starts from the premise that western civilisation is evil and beyond redemption. If you have this mindset as a starting point then the situation is pretty hopeless.

    The point about Trump and the 'far right' is that they do exude a form of self confidence, they promise to eradicate these threats; Islamists will be deported, the negative cultural forces will be shut down through reform of institutions and universities. If your assessment of the situation is that we are in a crisis / emergency, then it has a certain appeal.
    The objection to anti woke thinking is it starts from the premise that western civilisation is so weak that it will fall apart at the slightest criticism.
    Indeed, the shock of being told that My Island Story isn't, erm, regarded as quite sound even in the Departments of History at Cambridge and Oxford.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,824
    Heathener said:

    Heading off on one of the world’s great railway journeys shortly but just to add that the tories are also wrong to assume that bribing home owning pensioners is an infallible vote winner.

    Scroll back up this page, or follow recent events on pb, and you will all know that health is rightly a major concern as people get older.

    The NHS is in a terrible state. The ideological wealthy Right seem to want to run it into the ground.

    The rest of us, which is 99% of the electorate, would rather like the NHS to be fit for purpose once again. And we don’t mind paying a bit more if that fixes it.

    And yet spending on the NHS has never been higher. Record numbers of staff of all kinds.

    It’s almost as if giving money to an organisation doesn’t automatically generate results.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,246
    edited March 2024
    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Heading off on one of the world’s great railway journeys shortly but just to add that the tories are also wrong to assume that bribing home owning pensioners is an infallible vote winner.

    Scroll back up this page, or follow recent events on pb, and you will all know that health is rightly a major concern as people get older.

    The NHS is in a terrible state. The ideological wealthy Right seem to want to run it into the ground.

    The rest of us, which is 99% of the electorate, would rather like the NHS to be fit for purpose once again. And we don’t mind paying a bit more if that fixes it.

    Don’t forget to take a thermos of pre-boiled water. These trains can charge over 3p for a cup of the hot stuff
    You’re such a dick.


    If you’re really clever you may be able to steal some of those free sachets of salt from the buffet car on the “world’s greatest railway journey” which you could secretly hoard in your purse, saving you any more spending on table salt for the next 9 weeks
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,661
    edited March 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/mar/02/government-documents-said-to-blow-gaping-hole-in-its-case-for-cumbrian-coalmine


    Mr Gove not having a good week.

    'When Michael Gove, the levelling up secretary, approved plans to build the Woodhouse Colliery near Whitehaven in December 2022, he said the UK would need the coal in order to carry on making steel.

    But the newly revealed documents, drafted around the same time at the then Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS), say the opposite. According to these papers, officials predict with “high certainty” that technology such as electric arc furnaces will lead to the successful decarbonisation of UK steel production by 2035.'
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