A little thought experiment for Sunday – politicalbetting.com
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Are you aware of the number of Pacific Islanders in the NRL?Leon said:
I know you love League, but this is an anomaly. Elsewhere union is entirely dominant, and will inevitably win outdixiedean said:
Rugby Union in Australia is in a terrible state at all levels. Reports of some Brumbies players on Aus $20k a year. Private schools used to provide the Wallabies. Now they are all headed to NRL.Leon said:
Possibly worse. I've never seen an Australian side so devoid of spark and ideasMarqueeMark said:
Are they Chile in disguise?Leon said:Australia are, deservedly, going home straight from the first round. Terroyable
The worry is that they are in secular decline, and they have the next World Cup. It should have gone to Ireland, or the Celtic nations as a group. or the USA, or S America - Argentina/Uruguay/Chile
TV deal won't be good.
Then it is just a case of waiting for Oz to fall into line with the basic economics
Also Pacific island players will stop going to Australia if they can't play union, because then they lose the chance to play for their islands and real glory
In the end it is games like THIS that you remember as a player. Watched by your entire nation, in a World Cup
Union people have been nonchalantly asserting the inevitable death of League since 1995. It isn't dead yet. And in Oz it's strangling Union.0 -
100mph? That's already barely faster than the slow trains on the WCML. Fast trains do 125, and were meant to do 140.Leon said:
What is the effing point in that?Luckyguy1983 said:
Sounds like a good red wall policy then. The more those assorted ghouls and grifters are getting their corpulent jowls in a flap the better the policy is likely to be.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
My own thought is that it should go to Euston (if they've dug half of it up already) and stop at Birmingham.
Euston to Brum, 3 minutes quicker
Don't get me wrong, HS2 was always stupid, we are a small, compact, often dynamic nation, we don't need high speed rail like bigger countries with greater distances to deal with, this is an advantage. Unfortunately rail geeks got a hold of the correct idea that we need more capacity by loudly saying WE NEED HIGH SPEED - no we don't. 100mph (which we can do now) is entirely enough for Manc - Brum - London. Just increase capacity but knit the northern cities together with Crossrail and Metros
Anyway now tiz done. Yes they really have dug the holes. Just finish it
Whether it needed to be 200mph is a different question but a target of 180 would have been reasonable.0 -
The HS2 question is whether the prospective benefits exceed the costs to be incurred from here on. The resources used hitherto are irrelevant to this decision3
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No he hasn't, he has cut inflation, grown the economy and increased the Tory poll rating compared to what Truss left.RandallFlagg said:I reckon Sir Graham Brady is going to get some letters in the post this week. I honestly think a few MPs will come to the conclusion that (as ridiculous it will be have to have a fourth PM this parliament) getting rid of Sunak and having a sudden election with Mordaunt or Cleverley might their best option. Maybe, just maybe they'd benefit from some kind of new PM bounce and catch Labour off guard enough to prevent SKS getting a majority if they got lucky.
Sunak seems to have gone as mad as Truss and will lead them to a landslide defeat if he remains in charge.
Mordaunt or Cleverly are also lightweights compared to Sunak and neither would get a coronation from Tory MPs, indeed you might even get the membership electing Braverman or Badenoch PM if they got to the last 21 -
Yes, I am aware, that's why I mentioned Pacific Islandersdixiedean said:
Are you aware of the number of Pacific Islanders in the NRL?Leon said:
I know you love League, but this is an anomaly. Elsewhere union is entirely dominant, and will inevitably win outdixiedean said:
Rugby Union in Australia is in a terrible state at all levels. Reports of some Brumbies players on Aus $20k a year. Private schools used to provide the Wallabies. Now they are all headed to NRL.Leon said:
Possibly worse. I've never seen an Australian side so devoid of spark and ideasMarqueeMark said:
Are they Chile in disguise?Leon said:Australia are, deservedly, going home straight from the first round. Terroyable
The worry is that they are in secular decline, and they have the next World Cup. It should have gone to Ireland, or the Celtic nations as a group. or the USA, or S America - Argentina/Uruguay/Chile
TV deal won't be good.
Then it is just a case of waiting for Oz to fall into line with the basic economics
Also Pacific island players will stop going to Australia if they can't play union, because then they lose the chance to play for their islands and real glory
In the end it is games like THIS that you remember as a player. Watched by your entire nation, in a World Cup
Union people have been nonchalantly asserting the inevitable death of League since 1995. It isn't dead yet. And in Oz it's strangling Union.
If you can make the same money in union by going to France or the UK/Ireland AND then ALSO get the glory of playing for Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, etc, in a proper union World Cup, then you will play union, not league
I expect this to happen more often, these players will withdraw from NRL and go for northen hemisphere union0 -
But isn't that exactly what hasn't happened with HS2 (for phase 1 anyway) - and, indeed, is one of the problems?Fishing said:
No because of the signal it sends out to the contractors and consultants and other parasites who've landed us with this massive white elephant.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
Far too often in the public sector you see people knowingly under-estimating the costs of a project, then when they win it, and start work, they submit higher and higher costs knowing that the politicians will just increase the cost rather than take political flack for cancelling it, and if the worst comes to the worst they can usually blame the previous government somehow.
You saw it with the Olympics - the original estimate was £3 billion and the final cost was between £12 and £24 billion depending on who you ask. It's common, almost routine in defence procurement. The only difference with HS2 is that the total cost is an order of magnitude or two higher than most public sector procurement disasters.
Cancelling HS2 would be a strong signal that this kind of behaviour won't be tolerated any more, and projects need to deliver what they promised when they promised or be cancelled.
My understanding is that the contractors were required to cover 100% of the project risk - and therefore all of the submitted bids were much higher than expected in order to cover the cost of any potential overruns. It's one of the main reasons why the cost ballooned so much so early in the project's life.
I believe that things were intended to be a bit different with phase 2, with a more traditional risk management approach. But much of that's been cancelled already anyway, so we won't be seeing any benefits there.0 -
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Eddie Jones0 -
The worry is that rugby dominated by a few northern hemisphere teams will completely destroy rugby (league or union) in the SH
It was always a possibility0 -
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But when Sunak falls you will hail (as you did when Boris fell to Truss) "the King is dead, long live the Queen", be that Mordaunt, Badenoch, Braverman or Gove.HYUFD said:
No he hasn't, he has cut inflation, grown the economy and increased the Tory poll rating compared to what Truss left.RandallFlagg said:I reckon Sir Graham Brady is going to get some letters in the post this week. I honestly think a few MPs will come to the conclusion that (as ridiculous it will be have to have a fourth PM this parliament) getting rid of Sunak and having a sudden election with Mordaunt or Cleverley might their best option. Maybe, just maybe they'd benefit from some kind of new PM bounce and catch Labour off guard enough to prevent SKS getting a majority if they got lucky.
Sunak seems to have gone as mad as Truss and will lead them to a landslide defeat if he remains in charge.
Mordaunt or Cleverly are also lightweights compared to Sunak and neither would get a coronation from Tory MPs, indeed you might even get the membership electing Braverman or Badenoch PM if they got to the last 22 -
In Opposition maybe (albeit I never really hailed Truss), Barclay will also be a contender as will Tugendhat, maybe even Mogg.Mexicanpete said:...
But when Sunak falls you will hail (as you did when Boris fell to Truss) "the King is dead, long live the Queen", be that Mordaunt, Badenoch, Braverman or Gove.HYUFD said:
No he hasn't, he has cut inflation, grown the economy and increased the Tory poll rating compared to what Truss left.RandallFlagg said:I reckon Sir Graham Brady is going to get some letters in the post this week. I honestly think a few MPs will come to the conclusion that (as ridiculous it will be have to have a fourth PM this parliament) getting rid of Sunak and having a sudden election with Mordaunt or Cleverley might their best option. Maybe, just maybe they'd benefit from some kind of new PM bounce and catch Labour off guard enough to prevent SKS getting a majority if they got lucky.
Sunak seems to have gone as mad as Truss and will lead them to a landslide defeat if he remains in charge.
Mordaunt or Cleverly are also lightweights compared to Sunak and neither would get a coronation from Tory MPs, indeed you might even get the membership electing Braverman or Badenoch PM if they got to the last 2
However until then Sunak will almost certainly lead the Conservatives into the next general election now0 -
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.0 -
So one of Ireland, Saffers and the French to miss out?Leon said:
England will beat Fiji, Wales will surely beat the Argieslondonpubman said:
Excellent win for you well done.Penddu2 said:Wales have been awesome - I didnt see that scoreline coming. This should see a Wales v Arg/Sam QF and Eng v Fiji in the other
I expect England to beat Samoa so indeed Fiji almost certainly in the QF
Both teams in the semis, I reckon0 -
Have you seen the latest polls? Sunak is well heading towards Truss levels of unpopularity.HYUFD said:
No he hasn't, he has cut inflation, grown the economy and increased the Tory poll rating compared to what Truss left.RandallFlagg said:I reckon Sir Graham Brady is going to get some letters in the post this week. I honestly think a few MPs will come to the conclusion that (as ridiculous it will be have to have a fourth PM this parliament) getting rid of Sunak and having a sudden election with Mordaunt or Cleverley might their best option. Maybe, just maybe they'd benefit from some kind of new PM bounce and catch Labour off guard enough to prevent SKS getting a majority if they got lucky.
Sunak seems to have gone as mad as Truss and will lead them to a landslide defeat if he remains in charge.
Mordaunt or Cleverly are also lightweights compared to Sunak and neither would get a coronation from Tory MPs, indeed you might even get the membership electing Braverman or Badenoch PM if they got to the last 20 -
Only 20% behind in the polls! Prices only 18% higher than they were two years ago! All praise the mighty Sunak!HYUFD said:
No he hasn't, he has cut inflation, grown the economy and increased the Tory poll rating compared to what Truss left.RandallFlagg said:I reckon Sir Graham Brady is going to get some letters in the post this week. I honestly think a few MPs will come to the conclusion that (as ridiculous it will be have to have a fourth PM this parliament) getting rid of Sunak and having a sudden election with Mordaunt or Cleverley might their best option. Maybe, just maybe they'd benefit from some kind of new PM bounce and catch Labour off guard enough to prevent SKS getting a majority if they got lucky.
Sunak seems to have gone as mad as Truss and will lead them to a landslide defeat if he remains in charge.
Mordaunt or Cleverly are also lightweights compared to Sunak and neither would get a coronation from Tory MPs, indeed you might even get the membership electing Braverman or Badenoch PM if they got to the last 2
Let me know when he has Stopped the Boats.2 -
Isn't that the logic of the draw? I believe soMarqueeMark said:
So one of Ireland, Saffers and the French to miss out?Leon said:
England will beat Fiji, Wales will surely beat the Argieslondonpubman said:
Excellent win for you well done.Penddu2 said:Wales have been awesome - I didnt see that scoreline coming. This should see a Wales v Arg/Sam QF and Eng v Fiji in the other
I expect England to beat Samoa so indeed Fiji almost certainly in the QF
Both teams in the semis, I reckon0 -
Nick Tyrone
@NicholasTyrone
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4h
This week has left me wondering if Rishi Sunak’s overt goal is to be remembered as the worst British prime minister ever. He’s got Truss, Johnson and May to overcome, all stiff competition, but the last few days have given him legs.0 -
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And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster0 -
I suspect the next Conservative PM is not yet in parliament.HYUFD said:
In Opposition maybe (albeit I never really hailed Truss), Barclay will also be a contender as will Tugendhat, maybe even Mogg.Mexicanpete said:...
But when Sunak falls you will hail (as you did when Boris fell to Truss) "the King is dead, long live the Queen", be that Mordaunt, Badenoch, Braverman or Gove.HYUFD said:
No he hasn't, he has cut inflation, grown the economy and increased the Tory poll rating compared to what Truss left.RandallFlagg said:I reckon Sir Graham Brady is going to get some letters in the post this week. I honestly think a few MPs will come to the conclusion that (as ridiculous it will be have to have a fourth PM this parliament) getting rid of Sunak and having a sudden election with Mordaunt or Cleverley might their best option. Maybe, just maybe they'd benefit from some kind of new PM bounce and catch Labour off guard enough to prevent SKS getting a majority if they got lucky.
Sunak seems to have gone as mad as Truss and will lead them to a landslide defeat if he remains in charge.
Mordaunt or Cleverly are also lightweights compared to Sunak and neither would get a coronation from Tory MPs, indeed you might even get the membership electing Braverman or Badenoch PM if they got to the last 2
However until then Sunak will almost certainly lead the Conservatives into the next general election now
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The best 4 ranked nations (SA, NZ, France and Ireland) are in one half of the draw to the semis.Leon said:
Isn't that the logic of the draw? I believe soMarqueeMark said:
So one of Ireland, Saffers and the French to miss out?Leon said:
England will beat Fiji, Wales will surely beat the Argieslondonpubman said:
Excellent win for you well done.Penddu2 said:Wales have been awesome - I didnt see that scoreline coming. This should see a Wales v Arg/Sam QF and Eng v Fiji in the other
I expect England to beat Samoa so indeed Fiji almost certainly in the QF
Both teams in the semis, I reckon
So. Only two of them can make the semis. I confidently expect the two who do will go on to contest the final.0 -
Bully XL owners of course are Brexiters...
https://x.com/BarneyDavisES/status/1705568870050750489?s=20
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In terms of attendance at matches and TV viewers it isdixiedean said:0 -
The Tories were 30% behind in the polls under Truss, inflation almost halved from the level Truss left tooSandyRentool said:
Only 20% behind in the polls! Prices only 18% higher than they were two years ago! All praise the mighty Sunak!HYUFD said:
No he hasn't, he has cut inflation, grown the economy and increased the Tory poll rating compared to what Truss left.RandallFlagg said:I reckon Sir Graham Brady is going to get some letters in the post this week. I honestly think a few MPs will come to the conclusion that (as ridiculous it will be have to have a fourth PM this parliament) getting rid of Sunak and having a sudden election with Mordaunt or Cleverley might their best option. Maybe, just maybe they'd benefit from some kind of new PM bounce and catch Labour off guard enough to prevent SKS getting a majority if they got lucky.
Sunak seems to have gone as mad as Truss and will lead them to a landslide defeat if he remains in charge.
Mordaunt or Cleverly are also lightweights compared to Sunak and neither would get a coronation from Tory MPs, indeed you might even get the membership electing Braverman or Badenoch PM if they got to the last 2
Let me know when he has Stopped the Boats.0 -
Depends on the economy. If we follow the pattern of the 18 year Conservative government of 1979-1997, the 13 year Labour government of 1997-2010 and the 13 year current Tory government then the next Tory PM won't be in government yet.Fairliered said:
I suspect the next Conservative PM is not yet in parliament.HYUFD said:
In Opposition maybe (albeit I never really hailed Truss), Barclay will also be a contender as will Tugendhat, maybe even Mogg.Mexicanpete said:...
But when Sunak falls you will hail (as you did when Boris fell to Truss) "the King is dead, long live the Queen", be that Mordaunt, Badenoch, Braverman or Gove.HYUFD said:
No he hasn't, he has cut inflation, grown the economy and increased the Tory poll rating compared to what Truss left.RandallFlagg said:I reckon Sir Graham Brady is going to get some letters in the post this week. I honestly think a few MPs will come to the conclusion that (as ridiculous it will be have to have a fourth PM this parliament) getting rid of Sunak and having a sudden election with Mordaunt or Cleverley might their best option. Maybe, just maybe they'd benefit from some kind of new PM bounce and catch Labour off guard enough to prevent SKS getting a majority if they got lucky.
Sunak seems to have gone as mad as Truss and will lead them to a landslide defeat if he remains in charge.
Mordaunt or Cleverly are also lightweights compared to Sunak and neither would get a coronation from Tory MPs, indeed you might even get the membership electing Braverman or Badenoch PM if they got to the last 2
However until then Sunak will almost certainly lead the Conservatives into the next general election now
Blair wasn't elected until 1983, Cameron wasn't elected until 2001 and Starmer wasn't elected until 2015.
However in 1945 and 1964 the Tories were only out for 6 years and in 1974 only out for 5 years (and Labour was only out for 4 years after 1970)0 -
Yes, probably rightdixiedean said:
The best 4 ranked nations (SA, NZ, France and Ireland) are in one half of the draw to the semis.Leon said:
Isn't that the logic of the draw? I believe soMarqueeMark said:
So one of Ireland, Saffers and the French to miss out?Leon said:
England will beat Fiji, Wales will surely beat the Argieslondonpubman said:
Excellent win for you well done.Penddu2 said:Wales have been awesome - I didnt see that scoreline coming. This should see a Wales v Arg/Sam QF and Eng v Fiji in the other
I expect England to beat Samoa so indeed Fiji almost certainly in the QF
Both teams in the semis, I reckon
So. Only two of them can make the semis. I confidently expect the two who do will go on to contest the final.0 -
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster1 -
Or even born? (One can but hope).Fairliered said:
I suspect the next Conservative PM is not yet in parliament.HYUFD said:
In Opposition maybe (albeit I never really hailed Truss), Barclay will also be a contender as will Tugendhat, maybe even Mogg.Mexicanpete said:...
But when Sunak falls you will hail (as you did when Boris fell to Truss) "the King is dead, long live the Queen", be that Mordaunt, Badenoch, Braverman or Gove.HYUFD said:
No he hasn't, he has cut inflation, grown the economy and increased the Tory poll rating compared to what Truss left.RandallFlagg said:I reckon Sir Graham Brady is going to get some letters in the post this week. I honestly think a few MPs will come to the conclusion that (as ridiculous it will be have to have a fourth PM this parliament) getting rid of Sunak and having a sudden election with Mordaunt or Cleverley might their best option. Maybe, just maybe they'd benefit from some kind of new PM bounce and catch Labour off guard enough to prevent SKS getting a majority if they got lucky.
Sunak seems to have gone as mad as Truss and will lead them to a landslide defeat if he remains in charge.
Mordaunt or Cleverly are also lightweights compared to Sunak and neither would get a coronation from Tory MPs, indeed you might even get the membership electing Braverman or Badenoch PM if they got to the last 2
However until then Sunak will almost certainly lead the Conservatives into the next general election now0 -
In fairness the overall speed *is* important in market share - especially capturing from air. And part of that is train speed, sure, but also in line design - straightish, no Stephenson bottlenecks, etc. And capacity. No commuter trains. Or trains laden with Sainsburys stock for Inverness.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster1 -
Just bloody finish HS2 and stop faffing around. And build a spur to LHR sharpish.
Foreign investors fly into Heathrow. They will never invest in large numbers in anything other than large industrial plants more than a couple of hours absolute max from the airport (in most cases no more than an hour). So at least the midlands and North West need a direct rail link from LHR. Or make Manchester airport significantly better connected on long haul.
Almost all multinationals with European headquarters in Switzerland are within an hour of Zurich or Geneva airport for the same reason.3 -
How the bloody hell did they get such unbalanced seeding?Leon said:
Yes, probably rightdixiedean said:
The best 4 ranked nations (SA, NZ, France and Ireland) are in one half of the draw to the semis.Leon said:
Isn't that the logic of the draw? I believe soMarqueeMark said:
So one of Ireland, Saffers and the French to miss out?Leon said:
England will beat Fiji, Wales will surely beat the Argieslondonpubman said:
Excellent win for you well done.Penddu2 said:Wales have been awesome - I didnt see that scoreline coming. This should see a Wales v Arg/Sam QF and Eng v Fiji in the other
I expect England to beat Samoa so indeed Fiji almost certainly in the QF
Both teams in the semis, I reckon
So. Only two of them can make the semis. I confidently expect the two who do will go on to contest the final.
ISTR this has been an issue at previous tournaments, with the draw made ridiculously early on rankings in place at the time.1 -
Alternatively. They may beat each other to a pulp in the quarters.dixiedean said:
The best 4 ranked nations (SA, NZ, France and Ireland) are in one half of the draw to the semis.Leon said:
Isn't that the logic of the draw? I believe soMarqueeMark said:
So one of Ireland, Saffers and the French to miss out?Leon said:
England will beat Fiji, Wales will surely beat the Argieslondonpubman said:
Excellent win for you well done.Penddu2 said:Wales have been awesome - I didnt see that scoreline coming. This should see a Wales v Arg/Sam QF and Eng v Fiji in the other
I expect England to beat Samoa so indeed Fiji almost certainly in the QF
Both teams in the semis, I reckon
So. Only two of them can make the semis. I confidently expect the two who do will go on to contest the final.
And it could be Fiji v Argentina in the final.0 -
Don't bring logic and reason into it when there are tabloid populist votes to be won by scrapping stuff that actually builds a future for the country and spending the money on hated IHT cuts.TimS said:Just bloody finish HS2 and stop faffing around. And build a spur to LHR sharpish.
Foreign investors fly into Heathrow. They will never invest in large numbers in anything other than large industrial plants more than a couple of hours absolute max from the airport (in most cases no more than an hour). So at least the midlands and North West need a direct rail link from LHR. Or make Manchester airport significantly better connected on long haul.
Almost all multinationals with European headquarters in Switzerland are within an hour of Zurich or Geneva airport for the same reason.
0 -
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink2 -
Cameron didn't first get elected until 2001, four years after the 1997 debacle.Fairliered said:
I suspect the next Conservative PM is not yet in parliament.HYUFD said:
In Opposition maybe (albeit I never really hailed Truss), Barclay will also be a contender as will Tugendhat, maybe even Mogg.Mexicanpete said:...
But when Sunak falls you will hail (as you did when Boris fell to Truss) "the King is dead, long live the Queen", be that Mordaunt, Badenoch, Braverman or Gove.HYUFD said:
No he hasn't, he has cut inflation, grown the economy and increased the Tory poll rating compared to what Truss left.RandallFlagg said:I reckon Sir Graham Brady is going to get some letters in the post this week. I honestly think a few MPs will come to the conclusion that (as ridiculous it will be have to have a fourth PM this parliament) getting rid of Sunak and having a sudden election with Mordaunt or Cleverley might their best option. Maybe, just maybe they'd benefit from some kind of new PM bounce and catch Labour off guard enough to prevent SKS getting a majority if they got lucky.
Sunak seems to have gone as mad as Truss and will lead them to a landslide defeat if he remains in charge.
Mordaunt or Cleverly are also lightweights compared to Sunak and neither would get a coronation from Tory MPs, indeed you might even get the membership electing Braverman or Badenoch PM if they got to the last 2
However until then Sunak will almost certainly lead the Conservatives into the next general election now0 -
The WCML doesn't go through Essex!Leon said:
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster0 -
What's the best time to cancel/ruin a huge infrastructure project? 13 years into your party's time in office?
All this to help them finance a tax cut bung to the children of wealthy parents.1 -
Report in iirc Spectator saying Hunt was keener on HS2 than Rishi (who seems to have hated the idea since day one - possibly because it is not a helicopter).Scott_xP said:@NatashaC
Tory MP Steve Brine suggests on Westminster Hour that Jeremy Hunt wants to find a way to make HS2 go ahead and it would be "odd" if they canned the Manchester leg just days before party conference in Manchester. Could a fudge could be on the cards?
3 -
What an embarrassment. And to not even have the connection to Euston. Labour really should commit to finishing HS2 but I fear they won’t .0
-
Careful with that vase.Fairliered said:
I suspect the next Conservative PM is not yet in parliament.HYUFD said:
In Opposition maybe (albeit I never really hailed Truss), Barclay will also be a contender as will Tugendhat, maybe even Mogg.Mexicanpete said:...
But when Sunak falls you will hail (as you did when Boris fell to Truss) "the King is dead, long live the Queen", be that Mordaunt, Badenoch, Braverman or Gove.HYUFD said:
No he hasn't, he has cut inflation, grown the economy and increased the Tory poll rating compared to what Truss left.RandallFlagg said:I reckon Sir Graham Brady is going to get some letters in the post this week. I honestly think a few MPs will come to the conclusion that (as ridiculous it will be have to have a fourth PM this parliament) getting rid of Sunak and having a sudden election with Mordaunt or Cleverley might their best option. Maybe, just maybe they'd benefit from some kind of new PM bounce and catch Labour off guard enough to prevent SKS getting a majority if they got lucky.
Sunak seems to have gone as mad as Truss and will lead them to a landslide defeat if he remains in charge.
Mordaunt or Cleverly are also lightweights compared to Sunak and neither would get a coronation from Tory MPs, indeed you might even get the membership electing Braverman or Badenoch PM if they got to the last 2
However until then Sunak will almost certainly lead the Conservatives into the next general election now
0 -
At what cost and instead of what other capital projects?nico679 said:What an embarrassment. And to not even have the connection to Euston. Labour really should commit to finishing HS2 but I fear they won’t .
0 -
Or ever will be. That's real hope.dixiedean said:
Or even born? (One can but hope).Fairliered said:
I suspect the next Conservative PM is not yet in parliament.HYUFD said:
In Opposition maybe (albeit I never really hailed Truss), Barclay will also be a contender as will Tugendhat, maybe even Mogg.Mexicanpete said:...
But when Sunak falls you will hail (as you did when Boris fell to Truss) "the King is dead, long live the Queen", be that Mordaunt, Badenoch, Braverman or Gove.HYUFD said:
No he hasn't, he has cut inflation, grown the economy and increased the Tory poll rating compared to what Truss left.RandallFlagg said:I reckon Sir Graham Brady is going to get some letters in the post this week. I honestly think a few MPs will come to the conclusion that (as ridiculous it will be have to have a fourth PM this parliament) getting rid of Sunak and having a sudden election with Mordaunt or Cleverley might their best option. Maybe, just maybe they'd benefit from some kind of new PM bounce and catch Labour off guard enough to prevent SKS getting a majority if they got lucky.
Sunak seems to have gone as mad as Truss and will lead them to a landslide defeat if he remains in charge.
Mordaunt or Cleverly are also lightweights compared to Sunak and neither would get a coronation from Tory MPs, indeed you might even get the membership electing Braverman or Badenoch PM if they got to the last 2
However until then Sunak will almost certainly lead the Conservatives into the next general election now0 -
An important point about international investors here.TimS said:Just bloody finish HS2 and stop faffing around. And build a spur to LHR sharpish.
Foreign investors fly into Heathrow. They will never invest in large numbers in anything other than large industrial plants more than a couple of hours absolute max from the airport (in most cases no more than an hour). So at least the midlands and North West need a direct rail link from LHR. Or make Manchester airport significantly better connected on long haul.
Almost all multinationals with European headquarters in Switzerland are within an hour of Zurich or Geneva airport for the same reason.
Likewise, we really need Manchester Airport, which has half-decent connections, as a central hub for the whole northern cluster from Deeside to Hull.0 -
Times: Osborne rails against scrapping HS2.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/17060637677447499870 -
Are there other capital projects in the pipeline ? By the time Sunak has tried to bribe the country into voting for him I doubt they’ll be much left to fill a few pot holes .FrankBooth said:
At what cost and instead of what other capital projects?nico679 said:What an embarrassment. And to not even have the connection to Euston. Labour really should commit to finishing HS2 but I fear they won’t .
0 -
Keir Starmer was first elected in 2015, five years after Labour's 2010 defeat. Tony Blair was first elected in 1983, four years after Labour's defeat in 1979. So it's getting to be a bit of a pattern that the next PM for the "out" party is someone who becomes an MP the election after the party's defeat.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Cameron didn't first get elected until 2001, four years after the 1997 debacle.Fairliered said:
I suspect the next Conservative PM is not yet in parliament.HYUFD said:
In Opposition maybe (albeit I never really hailed Truss), Barclay will also be a contender as will Tugendhat, maybe even Mogg.Mexicanpete said:...
But when Sunak falls you will hail (as you did when Boris fell to Truss) "the King is dead, long live the Queen", be that Mordaunt, Badenoch, Braverman or Gove.HYUFD said:
No he hasn't, he has cut inflation, grown the economy and increased the Tory poll rating compared to what Truss left.RandallFlagg said:I reckon Sir Graham Brady is going to get some letters in the post this week. I honestly think a few MPs will come to the conclusion that (as ridiculous it will be have to have a fourth PM this parliament) getting rid of Sunak and having a sudden election with Mordaunt or Cleverley might their best option. Maybe, just maybe they'd benefit from some kind of new PM bounce and catch Labour off guard enough to prevent SKS getting a majority if they got lucky.
Sunak seems to have gone as mad as Truss and will lead them to a landslide defeat if he remains in charge.
Mordaunt or Cleverly are also lightweights compared to Sunak and neither would get a coronation from Tory MPs, indeed you might even get the membership electing Braverman or Badenoch PM if they got to the last 2
However until then Sunak will almost certainly lead the Conservatives into the next general election now1 -
He's on the right track.rottenborough said:Times: Osborne rails against scrapping HS2.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/17060637677447499874 -
You're absolutely spot on about the last.Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
Wigan to Leeds is a laughable journey by public transport. And they are both on the main stems.
Make it Burnley to Barnsley and it becomes untenable.1 -
Yes, 125 mph = 200 kph.Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
On HS1 in Kent it's 140 mph =224 kph.0 -
We had this debate in 2009/10 and now there are literally tunnelling machines boring through earth.Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
It has been decided by a previous generation of politicians and should be bloody finished.
No other european country carries on like this.
United Kingdom of Dither.5 -
-
"Let's have a heated debate"rottenborough said:
We had this debate in 2009/10 and now there are literally tunnelling machines boring through earth.Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
It has been decided by a previous generation of politicians and should be bloody finished.
No other european country carries on like this.
United Kingdom of Dither.0 -
I see the stain on humanity has been busy interfering with a live criminal case and is effectively saying police should be able to shoot anyone they like . She’s busy burnishing her right wing credentials. One can only imagine what her conference speech will look like. I expect an anti ECHR tirade with a side order of migrant bashing topped off with a return to the death penalty . This should though be manna from heaven for the baying mob of Tory party members who will lap up the hate fest !1
-
Exactly.nico679 said:
Are there other capital projects in the pipeline ? By the time Sunak has tried to bribe the country into voting for him I doubt they’ll be much left to fill a few pot holes .FrankBooth said:
At what cost and instead of what other capital projects?nico679 said:What an embarrassment. And to not even have the connection to Euston. Labour really should commit to finishing HS2 but I fear they won’t .
He seems to think scrapping Manchester leg of HS2 gives him money to spend on tax cuts.
3 -
(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
·
4h
Who in their right mind would say “let’s float we’re thinking of axing HS2 a week before our conference in Manchester, leave it hanging so it sits over everything like a wet blanket, and do it while spinning Rishi’s taking hard choices and levelling with the voters”.0 -
It wasn't before though, Churchill was elected first in 1900 and became PM in 1940, lost in 1945 and returned to power in 1951. Attlee was first elected in 1922, led Labour to defeat in 1935 and led Labour back to power in 1945. Wilson was first elected in 1945, Labour lost power in 1951 and he first became PM in 1964.SirNorfolkPassmore said:
Keir Starmer was first elected in 2015, five years after Labour's 2010 defeat. Tony Blair was first elected in 1983, four years after Labour's defeat in 1979. So it's getting to be a bit of a pattern that the next PM for the "out" party is someone who becomes an MP the election after the party's defeat.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Cameron didn't first get elected until 2001, four years after the 1997 debacle.Fairliered said:
I suspect the next Conservative PM is not yet in parliament.HYUFD said:
In Opposition maybe (albeit I never really hailed Truss), Barclay will also be a contender as will Tugendhat, maybe even Mogg.Mexicanpete said:...
But when Sunak falls you will hail (as you did when Boris fell to Truss) "the King is dead, long live the Queen", be that Mordaunt, Badenoch, Braverman or Gove.HYUFD said:
No he hasn't, he has cut inflation, grown the economy and increased the Tory poll rating compared to what Truss left.RandallFlagg said:I reckon Sir Graham Brady is going to get some letters in the post this week. I honestly think a few MPs will come to the conclusion that (as ridiculous it will be have to have a fourth PM this parliament) getting rid of Sunak and having a sudden election with Mordaunt or Cleverley might their best option. Maybe, just maybe they'd benefit from some kind of new PM bounce and catch Labour off guard enough to prevent SKS getting a majority if they got lucky.
Sunak seems to have gone as mad as Truss and will lead them to a landslide defeat if he remains in charge.
Mordaunt or Cleverly are also lightweights compared to Sunak and neither would get a coronation from Tory MPs, indeed you might even get the membership electing Braverman or Badenoch PM if they got to the last 2
However until then Sunak will almost certainly lead the Conservatives into the next general election now
Heath was first elected in 1950, the Tories lost power in 1964 and he became PM in 1970.
0 -
Yes.Gardenwalker said:
An important point about international investors here.TimS said:Just bloody finish HS2 and stop faffing around. And build a spur to LHR sharpish.
Foreign investors fly into Heathrow. They will never invest in large numbers in anything other than large industrial plants more than a couple of hours absolute max from the airport (in most cases no more than an hour). So at least the midlands and North West need a direct rail link from LHR. Or make Manchester airport significantly better connected on long haul.
Almost all multinationals with European headquarters in Switzerland are within an hour of Zurich or Geneva airport for the same reason.
Likewise, we really need Manchester Airport, which has half-decent connections, as a central hub for the whole northern cluster from Deeside to Hull.
You can catch a direct train from Newcastle to Manchester Airport.0 -
Today's shot from Sunak's malfunctioning ChatGPT 'I'm PM' style bot:
Neil Henderson
@hendopolis
·
10m
MAIL: Rapists barred from early release #TomorrowsPapersToday1 -
Super malfunctioning crisis club Everton (and we are) are a point behind Chelsea after 6 games.
We have Luton and Bournemouth at home next.0 -
Starmer should say to Sunak at next PMQs:
"You were the adult in the room once."
0 -
The Alien Queen is popping out more eggs this week with Sunak going hard on crime .
0 -
Yes, it wasn't a pattern before it became a pattern. Thanks for pointing that out.HYUFD said:
It wasn't before though, Churchill was elected first in 1900 and became PM in 1940, lost in 1945 and returned to power in 1951. Attlee was first elected in 1922, led Labour to defeat in 1935 and led Labour back to power in 1945. Wilson was first elected in 1945, Labour lost power in 1951 and he first became PM in 1964.SirNorfolkPassmore said:
Keir Starmer was first elected in 2015, five years after Labour's 2010 defeat. Tony Blair was first elected in 1983, four years after Labour's defeat in 1979. So it's getting to be a bit of a pattern that the next PM for the "out" party is someone who becomes an MP the election after the party's defeat.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Cameron didn't first get elected until 2001, four years after the 1997 debacle.Fairliered said:
I suspect the next Conservative PM is not yet in parliament.HYUFD said:
In Opposition maybe (albeit I never really hailed Truss), Barclay will also be a contender as will Tugendhat, maybe even Mogg.Mexicanpete said:...
But when Sunak falls you will hail (as you did when Boris fell to Truss) "the King is dead, long live the Queen", be that Mordaunt, Badenoch, Braverman or Gove.HYUFD said:
No he hasn't, he has cut inflation, grown the economy and increased the Tory poll rating compared to what Truss left.RandallFlagg said:I reckon Sir Graham Brady is going to get some letters in the post this week. I honestly think a few MPs will come to the conclusion that (as ridiculous it will be have to have a fourth PM this parliament) getting rid of Sunak and having a sudden election with Mordaunt or Cleverley might their best option. Maybe, just maybe they'd benefit from some kind of new PM bounce and catch Labour off guard enough to prevent SKS getting a majority if they got lucky.
Sunak seems to have gone as mad as Truss and will lead them to a landslide defeat if he remains in charge.
Mordaunt or Cleverly are also lightweights compared to Sunak and neither would get a coronation from Tory MPs, indeed you might even get the membership electing Braverman or Badenoch PM if they got to the last 2
However until then Sunak will almost certainly lead the Conservatives into the next general election now
Heath was first elected in 1950, the Tories lost power in 1964 and he became PM in 1970.0 -
Thankfully he hasn't brought logic or reason into it. Ireland does way better than the UK at attracting inward investment, and it's because they keep CT low, not because they have 200bn worth of shitty white elephant rail that someone decided would be a good idea for the EEC back in the 1950's.rottenborough said:
Don't bring logic and reason into it when there are tabloid populist votes to be won by scrapping stuff that actually builds a future for the country and spending the money on hated IHT cuts.TimS said:Just bloody finish HS2 and stop faffing around. And build a spur to LHR sharpish.
Foreign investors fly into Heathrow. They will never invest in large numbers in anything other than large industrial plants more than a couple of hours absolute max from the airport (in most cases no more than an hour). So at least the midlands and North West need a direct rail link from LHR. Or make Manchester airport significantly better connected on long haul.
Almost all multinationals with European headquarters in Switzerland are within an hour of Zurich or Geneva airport for the same reason.0 -
Leicester City have won more of their last 18 Premier League fixtures than Chelsea, and we aren't even in the division anymore.dixiedean said:Super malfunctioning crisis club Everton (and we are) are a point behind Chelsea after 6 games.
We have Luton and Bournemouth at home next.
New manager and signings are working out well for us in the Championship. Nice to see a winning team again.0 -
We absolutely do need more capacity on the north/south lines. I'm sick of having to stand up all the way from London to B'ham or Manchester, which has happened a number of times this year.Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink0 -
On the odd occasion it isn’t cancelled or starts at Yorkdixiedean said:
Yes.Gardenwalker said:
An important point about international investors here.TimS said:Just bloody finish HS2 and stop faffing around. And build a spur to LHR sharpish.
Foreign investors fly into Heathrow. They will never invest in large numbers in anything other than large industrial plants more than a couple of hours absolute max from the airport (in most cases no more than an hour). So at least the midlands and North West need a direct rail link from LHR. Or make Manchester airport significantly better connected on long haul.
Almost all multinationals with European headquarters in Switzerland are within an hour of Zurich or Geneva airport for the same reason.
Likewise, we really need Manchester Airport, which has half-decent connections, as a central hub for the whole northern cluster from Deeside to Hull.
You can catch a direct train from Newcastle to Manchester Airport.0 -
Osborne is poisonously wrong about precisely everything. A foul odour of greasy self-interest under a surface varnish of whatever the latest wokey crap is going permeates everything he says.Sunil_Prasannan said:
He's on the right track.rottenborough said:Times: Osborne rails against scrapping HS2.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/17060637677447499870 -
Isn't he a bit of a wet?Sunil_Prasannan said:0 -
Dan Neidle
@DanNeidle
Fun point about abolishing inheritance tax is that it could crash the alternative investment market (AIM) - the £90bn UK market for smaller/growth stocks
Dan Neidle
@DanNeidle
·
14h
The completely predictable result is that people have piled into AIM shares to avoid inheritance tax.
One estimate is that *ONE THIRD* of all AIM shares are held for tax reasons. That's £30bn.0 -
And yet Chelsea never seem to get the crisis club moniker.Foxy said:
Leicester City have won more of their last 18 Premier League fixtures than Chelsea, and we aren't even in the division anymore.dixiedean said:Super malfunctioning crisis club Everton (and we are) are a point behind Chelsea after 6 games.
We have Luton and Bournemouth at home next.
New manager and signings are working out well for us in the Championship. Nice to see a winning team again.0 -
A cursory glance at the Osborne/Heseltine piece and it looks like sheer drivel. Talk of abandoning the north??????
Isn't it this kind of attitude that so grates with people. That the midlands/north lives off the beneficence of the south. If you can't get to London in an hour fifteen you have no economic future. What other country would think in such stupid terms. All the evidence on HS2 was that the prime beneficiary would be London.2 -
Belfast will probably get High Speed Rail within the next few years. The line links Belfast to Cork via Dublin.Luckyguy1983 said:
Thankfully he hasn't brought logic or reason into it. Ireland does way better than the UK at attracting inward investment, and it's because they keep CT low, not because they have 200bn worth of shitty white elephant rail that someone decided would be a good idea for the EEC back in the 1950's.rottenborough said:
Don't bring logic and reason into it when there are tabloid populist votes to be won by scrapping stuff that actually builds a future for the country and spending the money on hated IHT cuts.TimS said:Just bloody finish HS2 and stop faffing around. And build a spur to LHR sharpish.
Foreign investors fly into Heathrow. They will never invest in large numbers in anything other than large industrial plants more than a couple of hours absolute max from the airport (in most cases no more than an hour). So at least the midlands and North West need a direct rail link from LHR. Or make Manchester airport significantly better connected on long haul.
Almost all multinationals with European headquarters in Switzerland are within an hour of Zurich or Geneva airport for the same reason.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41191171.html
0 -
If Sunak cancels HS2 but announces comprehensive tram networks for all northern cities and their suburbs, integrated with a new east-west intercity line, then you really would have some "levelling up".Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
These urban areas are perfect for trams, running full pelt between towns while replacing buses in the city centres. Have the same rolling stock everywhere, design standards etc, so it's easy to scale, and have one ticketing system across rail & tram, capped at £10 per day.
You don't have to tear up countryside or knock buildings down, as you just run them along the roads. Bypass the NIMBYs.
2 -
The prisons are full to bursting.nico679 said:The Alien Queen is popping out more eggs this week with Sunak going hard on crime .
Has he proposed building more to handle his crime crack down?
Devastating piece in Prospect the other week about the state of UK prisons.
1 -
Do both.Eabhal said:
If Sunak cancels HS2 but announces comprehensive tram networks for all northern cities and their suburbs, integrated with a new east-west intercity line, then you really would have some "levelling up".Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
These urban areas are perfect for trams, running full pelt between towns while replacing buses in the city centres. Have the same rolling stock everywhere, design standards etc, so it's easy to scale, and have one ticketing system across rail & tram, capped at £10 per day.
You don't have to tear up countryside or knock buildings down, as you just run them along the roads. Bypass the NIMBYs.
Why is this all so frigging difficult?5 -
It's rare that we see the "Face Eating Leopards Party" meme so literally interpreted.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12554797/XL-Bully-campaigner-attacked-dog.html0 -
Ooh Miss, I know the answer to that one!rottenborough said:
Do both.Eabhal said:
If Sunak cancels HS2 but announces comprehensive tram networks for all northern cities and their suburbs, integrated with a new east-west intercity line, then you really would have some "levelling up".Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
These urban areas are perfect for trams, running full pelt between towns while replacing buses in the city centres. Have the same rolling stock everywhere, design standards etc, so it's easy to scale, and have one ticketing system across rail & tram, capped at £10 per day.
You don't have to tear up countryside or knock buildings down, as you just run them along the roads. Bypass the NIMBYs.
Why is this all so frigging difficult?
Is it because we are skint?2 -
Rishi Sunak has frozen the 40% tax rate at £50k
Reduced the 45p band to £125k.
Increased corporation tax.
Not saying getting rid of IHT is a good idea but it's best to see things in the round.0 -
That's what I suggested earlier today, build new roads with trams (and cycle routes I said) linking towns and cities and incorporating new towns and cities with roads, cycles and trams designed from day one of the new town.Eabhal said:
If Sunak cancels HS2 but announces comprehensive tram networks for all northern cities and their suburbs, integrated with a new east-west intercity line, then you really would have some "levelling up".Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
These urban areas are perfect for trams, running full pelt between towns while replacing buses in the city centres. Have the same rolling stock everywhere, design standards etc, so it's easy to scale, and have one ticketing system across rail & tram, capped at £10 per day.
You don't have to tear up countryside or knock buildings down, as you just run them along the roads. Bypass the NIMBYs.
You seemed to object to that this morning, but if you've come around to the idea that's great.
1 -
There's very little point in it, but at least it would go from somewhere to somewhere, and be slightly less of a f***ing embarrassment. I'm between that and the 'just down tools and everyone fuck off' option. Fast forward the inevitable and make it into a cycle route.Leon said:
What is the effing point in that?Luckyguy1983 said:
Sounds like a good red wall policy then. The more those assorted ghouls and grifters are getting their corpulent jowls in a flap the better the policy is likely to be.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
My own thought is that it should go to Euston (if they've dug half of it up already) and stop at Birmingham.
Euston to Brum, 3 minutes quicker
Don't get me wrong, HS2 was always stupid, we are a small, compact, often dynamic nation, we don't need high speed rail like bigger countries with greater distances to deal with, this is an advantage. Unfortunately rail geeks got a hold of the correct idea that we need more capacity by loudly saying WE NEED HIGH SPEED - no we don't. 100mph (which we can do now) is entirely enough for Manc - Brum - London. Just increase capacity but knit the northern cities together with Crossrail and Metros
Anyway now tiz done. Yes they really have dug the holes. Just finish it0 -
Rishi isn't!Foxy said:
Ooh Miss, I know the answer to that one!rottenborough said:
Do both.Eabhal said:
If Sunak cancels HS2 but announces comprehensive tram networks for all northern cities and their suburbs, integrated with a new east-west intercity line, then you really would have some "levelling up".Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
These urban areas are perfect for trams, running full pelt between towns while replacing buses in the city centres. Have the same rolling stock everywhere, design standards etc, so it's easy to scale, and have one ticketing system across rail & tram, capped at £10 per day.
You don't have to tear up countryside or knock buildings down, as you just run them along the roads. Bypass the NIMBYs.
Why is this all so frigging difficult?
Is it because we are skint?0 -
That would be good too!rottenborough said:
Do both.Eabhal said:
If Sunak cancels HS2 but announces comprehensive tram networks for all northern cities and their suburbs, integrated with a new east-west intercity line, then you really would have some "levelling up".Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
These urban areas are perfect for trams, running full pelt between towns while replacing buses in the city centres. Have the same rolling stock everywhere, design standards etc, so it's easy to scale, and have one ticketing system across rail & tram, capped at £10 per day.
You don't have to tear up countryside or knock buildings down, as you just run them along the roads. Bypass the NIMBYs.
Why is this all so frigging difficult?
Glasgow, Manchester/Liverpool, Birmingham, Bradford/Leeds are the obvious candidates for massive tram systems given the number of car-dependent satellite towns.
But once you get going, you shouldn't stop. That's what's so infuriating - we build one new line (Edinburgh) and then fail to retain the expertise, or provide business certainty, by dawdling for a few years.0 -
We'll have to sea how this story ends.Scott_xP said:@NatashaC
Tory MP Steve Brine suggests on Westminster Hour that Jeremy Hunt wants to find a way to make HS2 go ahead and it would be "odd" if they canned the Manchester leg just days before party conference in Manchester. Could a fudge could be on the cards?0 -
He increased the NI threshold and cut fuel and petrol dutyFrankBooth said:Rishi Sunak has frozen the 40% tax rate at £50k
Reduced the 45p band to £125k.
Increased corporation tax.
Not saying getting rid of IHT is a good idea but it's best to see things in the round.0 -
The benefit of a tram network is you don't need to knock buildings down and tear up countryside to deliver it.BartholomewRoberts said:
That's what I suggested earlier today, build new roads with trams (and cycle routes I said) linking towns and cities and incorporating new towns and cities with roads, cycles and trams designed from day one of the new town.Eabhal said:
If Sunak cancels HS2 but announces comprehensive tram networks for all northern cities and their suburbs, integrated with a new east-west intercity line, then you really would have some "levelling up".Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
These urban areas are perfect for trams, running full pelt between towns while replacing buses in the city centres. Have the same rolling stock everywhere, design standards etc, so it's easy to scale, and have one ticketing system across rail & tram, capped at £10 per day.
You don't have to tear up countryside or knock buildings down, as you just run them along the roads. Bypass the NIMBYs.
You seemed to object to that this morning, but if you've come around to the idea that's great.
Just use the existing road network and save billions.
Your "new roads" tram network wouldn't actually go anywhere, just trundle round a low density estate on the outskirts of Warrington.
Just be honest - you don't want any space taken away from drivers. Stop this weird charade.0 -
In fact, given a tram takes 250 cars off the road every 5 minutes, it massively increases road capacity.Eabhal said:
The benefit of a tram network is you don't need to knock buildings down and tear up countryside to deliver it.BartholomewRoberts said:
That's what I suggested earlier today, build new roads with trams (and cycle routes I said) linking towns and cities and incorporating new towns and cities with roads, cycles and trams designed from day one of the new town.Eabhal said:
If Sunak cancels HS2 but announces comprehensive tram networks for all northern cities and their suburbs, integrated with a new east-west intercity line, then you really would have some "levelling up".Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
These urban areas are perfect for trams, running full pelt between towns while replacing buses in the city centres. Have the same rolling stock everywhere, design standards etc, so it's easy to scale, and have one ticketing system across rail & tram, capped at £10 per day.
You don't have to tear up countryside or knock buildings down, as you just run them along the roads. Bypass the NIMBYs.
You seemed to object to that this morning, but if you've come around to the idea that's great.
Just use the existing road network and save billions.
Your "new roads" tram network wouldn't actually go anywhere, just trundle round a low density estate on the outskirts of Warrington.
Just be honest - you don't want any space taken away from drivers. Stop this weird charade.0 -
It's capital investment spread over at least 20 years to build something that will at least one hundred years.Foxy said:
Ooh Miss, I know the answer to that one!rottenborough said:
Do both.Eabhal said:
If Sunak cancels HS2 but announces comprehensive tram networks for all northern cities and their suburbs, integrated with a new east-west intercity line, then you really would have some "levelling up".Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
These urban areas are perfect for trams, running full pelt between towns while replacing buses in the city centres. Have the same rolling stock everywhere, design standards etc, so it's easy to scale, and have one ticketing system across rail & tram, capped at £10 per day.
You don't have to tear up countryside or knock buildings down, as you just run them along the roads. Bypass the NIMBYs.
Why is this all so frigging difficult?
Is it because we are skint?
The asset remains on the nation's books.
If we had got on and built it when inflation was low it would not be costing what it does now.
Dither, dither, dither.0 -
Forget about the wisdom of having Namibia at the World Cup, how have they managed to end up with a format that looks likely to see France or South Africa knocked out at the Quarter Final stage, but England or Fiji making it to the Semi-Final?Leon said:
Now now. Don't get carried awayPenddu2 said:
LoLLeon said:
England will beat Fiji....londonpubman said:
Excellent win for you well done.Penddu2 said:Wales have been awesome - I didnt see that scoreline coming. This should see a Wales v Arg/Sam QF and Eng v Fiji in the other
I expect England to beat Samoa so indeed Fiji almost certainly in the QF
I reckon we will. They edged us last time. but we will surely have learned. I suspect we beat them, and progress to the semis0 -
As well as the money angle, the country simply doesn't have the workforce capacity. Pretty sure a PBer with direct experience (not naming 'cos I don't want to misattribute if I have remembered wrong) said that the country can only do one large Crossrail/HS2 project at a time. You would need to spend several years building that up before doing more, and you'd really want to be sure that you could afford to spend the future money on keeping that workforce employed on more projects in the future, or it would have been something of a waste.rottenborough said:
Do both.Eabhal said:
If Sunak cancels HS2 but announces comprehensive tram networks for all northern cities and their suburbs, integrated with a new east-west intercity line, then you really would have some "levelling up".Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
These urban areas are perfect for trams, running full pelt between towns while replacing buses in the city centres. Have the same rolling stock everywhere, design standards etc, so it's easy to scale, and have one ticketing system across rail & tram, capped at £10 per day.
You don't have to tear up countryside or knock buildings down, as you just run them along the roads. Bypass the NIMBYs.
Why is this all so frigging difficult?0 -
We need a cross-party consensus on a 50% or 100% increase in infrastructure spending over the next 50 years, as a guaranteed %age of GDP (similar to Defence). That would give business the security to invest in more equipment and train more staff up.LostPassword said:
As well as the money angle, the country simply doesn't have the workforce capacity. Pretty sure a PBer with direct experience (not naming 'cos I don't want to misattribute if I have remembered wrong) said that the country can only do one large Crossrail/HS2 project at a time. You would need to spend several years building that up before doing more, and you'd really want to be sure that you could afford to spend the future money on keeping that workforce employed on more projects in the future, or it would have been something of a waste.rottenborough said:
Do both.Eabhal said:
If Sunak cancels HS2 but announces comprehensive tram networks for all northern cities and their suburbs, integrated with a new east-west intercity line, then you really would have some "levelling up".Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
These urban areas are perfect for trams, running full pelt between towns while replacing buses in the city centres. Have the same rolling stock everywhere, design standards etc, so it's easy to scale, and have one ticketing system across rail & tram, capped at £10 per day.
You don't have to tear up countryside or knock buildings down, as you just run them along the roads. Bypass the NIMBYs.
Why is this all so frigging difficult?
0 -
Although HS2 isn't about speed, the biggest speed improvement, if 2B had gone ahead, would have been Birmingham <-> Leeds, down from 1h55 to 50mins.dixiedean said:
You're absolutely spot on about the last.Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
Wigan to Leeds is a laughable journey by public transport. And they are both on the main stems.
Make it Burnley to Barnsley and it becomes untenable.3 -
This is what we should have done. The UK-Ultaspeed project, first proposed in 2005. If we'd started it then, it would have been available by now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Ultraspeed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmCGySum36w0 -
No interoperability with the existing network, and therefore little point.Andy_JS said:This is what we should have done. The UK-Ultaspeed project, first proposed in 2005. If we'd started it then, it would have been available by now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Ultraspeed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmCGySum36w0 -
Well, maybe, but if such a consensus came about as a result of political pressure from the voters then it would likely be a lot more durable.Eabhal said:
We need a cross-party consensus on a 50% or 100% increase in infrastructure spending over the next 50 years, as a guaranteed %age of GDP (similar to Defence). That would give business the security to invest in more equipment and train more staff up.LostPassword said:
As well as the money angle, the country simply doesn't have the workforce capacity. Pretty sure a PBer with direct experience (not naming 'cos I don't want to misattribute if I have remembered wrong) said that the country can only do one large Crossrail/HS2 project at a time. You would need to spend several years building that up before doing more, and you'd really want to be sure that you could afford to spend the future money on keeping that workforce employed on more projects in the future, or it would have been something of a waste.rottenborough said:
Do both.Eabhal said:
If Sunak cancels HS2 but announces comprehensive tram networks for all northern cities and their suburbs, integrated with a new east-west intercity line, then you really would have some "levelling up".Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
These urban areas are perfect for trams, running full pelt between towns while replacing buses in the city centres. Have the same rolling stock everywhere, design standards etc, so it's easy to scale, and have one ticketing system across rail & tram, capped at £10 per day.
You don't have to tear up countryside or knock buildings down, as you just run them along the roads. Bypass the NIMBYs.
Why is this all so frigging difficult?
And, anyway, that's the easy part. The difficult part is working out how to pay for it. Britain is in a deep, deep, hole, and still digging deeper. The implied drops in personal consumption that would be necessary to: close the budget deficit, close the current account deficit, keep up with the costs of the demographic transition *and* pay for increased infrastructure spending (let alone the funding crisis in social care, or demands for rearmament, or education, the financial collapse of local government, underfunding of the criminal justice system, etc, etc) must be pretty eye-watering.2 -
Except that its debt:GDP ratio is the second lowest in the G7, its demographic prospects better than most, and it retains monetary sovereignty - indeed its currency still has minor reserve status.LostPassword said:
Well, maybe, but if such a consensus came about as a result of political pressure from the voters then it would likely be a lot more durable.Eabhal said:
We need a cross-party consensus on a 50% or 100% increase in infrastructure spending over the next 50 years, as a guaranteed %age of GDP (similar to Defence). That would give business the security to invest in more equipment and train more staff up.LostPassword said:
As well as the money angle, the country simply doesn't have the workforce capacity. Pretty sure a PBer with direct experience (not naming 'cos I don't want to misattribute if I have remembered wrong) said that the country can only do one large Crossrail/HS2 project at a time. You would need to spend several years building that up before doing more, and you'd really want to be sure that you could afford to spend the future money on keeping that workforce employed on more projects in the future, or it would have been something of a waste.rottenborough said:
Do both.Eabhal said:
If Sunak cancels HS2 but announces comprehensive tram networks for all northern cities and their suburbs, integrated with a new east-west intercity line, then you really would have some "levelling up".Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
These urban areas are perfect for trams, running full pelt between towns while replacing buses in the city centres. Have the same rolling stock everywhere, design standards etc, so it's easy to scale, and have one ticketing system across rail & tram, capped at £10 per day.
You don't have to tear up countryside or knock buildings down, as you just run them along the roads. Bypass the NIMBYs.
Why is this all so frigging difficult?
And, anyway, that's the easy part. The difficult part is working out how to pay for it. Britain is in a deep, deep, hole, and still digging deeper. The implied drops in personal consumption that would be necessary to: close the budget deficit, close the current account deficit, keep up with the costs of the demographic transition *and* pay for increased infrastructure spending (let alone the funding crisis in social care, or demands for rearmament, or education, the financial collapse of local government, underfunding of the criminal justice system, etc, etc) must be pretty eye-watering.
Quite simply, what is missing is imagination and leadership.0 -
Just had a bit of a shock to see that the AfD are only 1% away from being in second place in Berlin according to the latest opinion poll.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Berlin_state_election#Opinion_polls0 -
Of course I don't want any space taken away from drivers.Eabhal said:
The benefit of a tram network is you don't need to knock buildings down and tear up countryside to deliver it.BartholomewRoberts said:
That's what I suggested earlier today, build new roads with trams (and cycle routes I said) linking towns and cities and incorporating new towns and cities with roads, cycles and trams designed from day one of the new town.Eabhal said:
If Sunak cancels HS2 but announces comprehensive tram networks for all northern cities and their suburbs, integrated with a new east-west intercity line, then you really would have some "levelling up".Leon said:
It's late. I'm tired and mildy emotionalCarnyx said:
Erm, what are you on? West Coast trains in Essex? I don't think even the East Coast ones go through Essex.Leon said:
And yet high speed trains are successfully operated in countries like Italy, which isn't THAT much bigger than the UK, or in Spain, which has a much smaller populationSandyRentool said:
The business case is shot for two reasons:AlsoLei said:
I'm quite sure that the business case for it no longer looks as good as it once did, given all the fucking around that's been done to the project already.Leon said:
Sunk cost fallacy? Except this could easily have been applied to so many infra endeavoursFishing said:
No we don't. If it doesn't make sense any more, we should stop.Leon said:
Well, they've withdrawn the whole idea after floating it consistently in multiple papers and TV studios for days. So I don't know about the polling, but I suggest it wend down like a leather bucket of cold Irish sick with various MPs, businessmen, mayors, pundits, grandees, and political advisors who can read social media and PBLuckyguy1983 said:
How has it proven unpopular? Have there been any polls?Leon said:I wonder if the Tories are so deluded they thought half-cancelling HS2 was going to be popular
Was HS2 a bad idea badly done? Yes, and yes
Do we now have to follow through and finish the damn thing? Yes
Yes, we have to finish it now, and then learn from the sobering experience
But if they trash it, they might as well cancel all infrastructure projects for the next 20 years. Investors and contractors will see public projects as being too risky, and no-one will want to touch them.
Only this week, the government have been trying to find investment partners for the £30bn Sizewell C nuclear power plant, which will be the next biggest project after Hinkley Point C and HS2.
Who the fuck would sign up to invest in anything if HS2 collapses at this late stage?
Former 5 day a week commuters either WFH permanently or adopting a hybrid pattern. So no need for extra commuter trains.
Business meetings being held in jimjams over Teams rather than in person. So no need for an Executive Relief Train to get folk from the northern wastelands into That London for 9am.
We didn't need to go for this ultra-impressive high speed spec, that was a main part of the problem
If you watch a WCML train shooting through Essex my God they go fast. 100-150mph? You don't need faster
I have seen trains shooting through towns north of London and thought, "fucking hell, they're fast" - certainly fast enough for the UK. 200kph? We don't need 300kph. We are a small compact country
What we DO painfully need is metro systems in the north that interlink
These urban areas are perfect for trams, running full pelt between towns while replacing buses in the city centres. Have the same rolling stock everywhere, design standards etc, so it's easy to scale, and have one ticketing system across rail & tram, capped at £10 per day.
You don't have to tear up countryside or knock buildings down, as you just run them along the roads. Bypass the NIMBYs.
You seemed to object to that this morning, but if you've come around to the idea that's great.
Just use the existing road network and save billions.
Your "new roads" tram network wouldn't actually go anywhere, just trundle round a low density estate on the outskirts of Warrington.
Just be honest - you don't want any space taken away from drivers. Stop this weird charade.
I want space taken away from the countryside and used for infrastructure and new towns.
Why the hell would would we take space away from our already limited infrastructure, rather than building new infrastructure?
What you call "tearing up the countryside" is what you need to do to build new towns and cities which the country desperately needs.1
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