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What would be happening if Corbyn was still LAB leader – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,741
edited August 2023 in General
What would be happening if Corbyn was still LAB leader – politicalbetting.com

Westminster Voting Intention (Corbyn as Labour Leader):LAB: 36% (-10)CON: 35% (+7)LDM: 15% (+4)RFM: 6% (=)GRN: 5% (=)SNP: 3% (=)Via @Moreincommon_, Aug 2023.Changes w/ Regular VI.

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  • Options
    Yardgnome-ism clearly will NOT be the flavor of the next UK GE.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,272
    I hesitate to post this (confirmation bias plus my feeling that one should fight when things get hard, not run away) but if the Telegraph is now posting stuff like this, things are not good.

    https://12ft.io/proxy?&q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/08/17/under-50-time-jump-ship-leave-britain
  • Options
    On topic - final sentence of OGH's learned commentary means what?

    Or did part of RS's remarks get ett by the tech?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,345
    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,272
    edited August 2023
    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".
  • Options
    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,650
    FPT

    Foxy said:

    Westminster Voting Intention (Corbyn as Labour Leader):

    LAB: 36% (-10)
    CON: 35% (+7)
    LDM: 15% (+4)
    RFM: 6% (=)
    GRN: 5% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via @Moreincommon_, Aug 2023.
    Changes w/ Regular VI.

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1692502327880556941?t=X8bfvMQ-SAuYGxTEqjxoMg&s=19

    @Bigjohnowls fans please explain.

    So the Tories would still lose...
    No, actually the polling effectively shows that the Conservatives would be 2% ahead now with Corbyn as leader. That's because the headline VI published by More in Common shows a Labour lead of only 15%. The headline VI figure incorporates the results of a forced choice question. The comparable base which the Corbyn polling is being measured against doesn't include a forced choice question and shows a Labour lead of 18%.

    The headline More in Common VI with Sunak and Starmer as leaders is:
    Lab 44%
    Con 29%
    LD 11%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 6%
    SNP 3%

    Apply the net change found if Corbyn were to replace Starmer and you would get
    Lab 34% (-10)
    Con 36% (+7)
    LD 15% (+4)
    Ref 6%
    Grn 6%
    SNP 3%

    Incidentally, More in Common also asked about the impact if Johnson not Sunak were Conservative leader and found that the Labour lead under Starmer would fall by 6%. The gloss really has worn off Sunak.

    The link to the More in Common August 2023 research and the data tables with the Corbyn and Johnson figures is here:
    https://www.moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/research/voting-intention-august-2023/

  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,594
    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to post this (confirmation bias plus my feeling that one should fight when things get hard, not run away) but if the Telegraph is now posting stuff like this, things are not good.

    https://12ft.io/proxy?&q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/08/17/under-50-time-jump-ship-leave-britain

    If the under 50s all leave before the next GE the Telegraph get their Con majority. What's not to like if you are the Daily Telegraph?
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,760
    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,565
    edited August 2023
    I think this supports my theory that GE17 flattered Jez (because of Brexit) and GE19 did the opposite (because of Brexit), his true 'par' appeal lying midway between the two, ie 'distinctly unappealing but just short of irredeemably toxic'.
  • Options
    NYT - Trump Plans to Skip G.O.P. Debate for Interview With Tucker Carlson

    Donald Trump’s apparent decision to skip the first debate is an affront both to the Republican National Committee and to Fox News, which is hosting the event.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,082
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    Tokmak and its railway now within range of tubed artillery, and the Russians not liking those cluster munitions. It's slow and expensive progress in terms of men and material.




  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,368
    "The Population of California Declined, Again
    In 2022, the state’s population dropped by roughly 138,400 people, to 38.94 million.
    By Soumya Karlamangla"

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/03/us/california-population-decline.html
  • Options
    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    Asking how well the Tory Party would do in next GE under Lord North, might well be useful pointer, as to how well CUP would perform in the following GE under Jacob Rees-Mogg.
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,117
    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to post this (confirmation bias plus my feeling that one should fight when things get hard, not run away) but if the Telegraph is now posting stuff like this, things are not good.

    https://12ft.io/proxy?&q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/08/17/under-50-time-jump-ship-leave-britain

    From the paper that celebrated the loss of FOM and now is telling people to leave the country . And trying to suggest America with its rampant gun crime and where half the country are nutjob Trump supporters is better than the UK . No thanks !

    The UK has its problems but at least you can go out without fear of getting your head blown off !
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,088
    nico679 said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to post this (confirmation bias plus my feeling that one should fight when things get hard, not run away) but if the Telegraph is now posting stuff like this, things are not good.

    https://12ft.io/proxy?&q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/08/17/under-50-time-jump-ship-leave-britain

    From the paper that celebrated the loss of FOM and now is telling people to leave the country . And trying to suggest America with its rampant gun crime and where half the country are nutjob Trump supporters is better than the UK . No thanks !

    The UK has its problems but at least you can go out without fear of getting your head blown off !
    It’s just clickbait nonsense.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,346
    If Corbyn was still Labour leader the Tories as the headline poll shows would have a chance of a fifth consecutive general election victory and their longest period in power since Lord Liverpool in the early 19th century rather than potentially their worst defeat since 1997 on current polls.

    Fortunately voters have Corbyn a landslide defeat in 2019 to force Labour to dump him as leader, which they did and replaced him with the more centrist Starmer
  • Options

    Anyway, it's my 10th wedding anniversary so I'm off for the night.

    Have a good evening, everyone.

    Congratulations!
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 4,166
    FPT someone brought up the potential new Argentine Pres. has he made any pronouncements on the Falklands? Surely if you were Putin you would be chucking money at him to ramp it up to divert UK defence attention/spending/kit there and so reduce what’s coming at him in Ukraine? I’m too lazy to research it myself so if anyone knows it’s much appreciated.
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    Jezbollah as LOTO? In 2023? He'd have organised a peace conference calling for Ukraine to surrender.
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 4,166

    Anyway, it's my 10th wedding anniversary so I'm off for the night.

    Have a good evening, everyone.

    Congrats and have fun. Just think, ten years ago you were a Stag, tonight you will eat Venison.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,565

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
    Yes. I agree. Starmer is nailing it as regards winning the election and I'm on board with it. We just have to remove the Cons. But on the left we can dream of a Labour leader *of* the left who is brighter and more contemporary than Jeremy Corbyn. I know we can because I do!
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,346
    boulay said:

    FPT someone brought up the potential new Argentine Pres. has he made any pronouncements on the Falklands? Surely if you were Putin you would be chucking money at him to ramp it up to divert UK defence attention/spending/kit there and so reduce what’s coming at him in Ukraine? I’m too lazy to research it myself so if anyone knows it’s much appreciated.

    He has said he supports self determination by the Falkland Islanders and diplomacy, he would actually be a better President for the UK than the current one.

    The Kirchners and their party have been much more bellicose on the Falklands than Milei is and the Kirchners are also pro Putin

    "Falklands: Milei favors diplomacy and the Hong Kong model, respecting people's wishes — MercoPress" https://en.mercopress.com/2023/08/14/falklands-milei-favors-diplomacy-and-the-hong-kong-model-respecting-people-s-wishes
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 4,166
    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    FPT someone brought up the potential new Argentine Pres. has he made any pronouncements on the Falklands? Surely if you were Putin you would be chucking money at him to ramp it up to divert UK defence attention/spending/kit there and so reduce what’s coming at him in Ukraine? I’m too lazy to research it myself so if anyone knows it’s much appreciated.

    He has said he supports self determination by the Falkland Islanders and diplomacy, he would actually be a better President for the UK than the current one.

    The Kirchners and their party have been much more bellicose on the Falklands than Milei is and the Kirchners are also pro Putin

    "Falklands: Milei favors diplomacy and the Hong Kong model, respecting people's wishes — MercoPress" https://en.mercopress.com/2023/08/14/falklands-milei-favors-diplomacy-and-the-hong-kong-model-respecting-people-s-wishes
    Thanks for the answer, although the Hong Kong model doesn’t bode well…
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,117
    Sunak could do with a winnable war . He can then turn up on an aircraft carrier with a bomber jacket saying mission accomplished and the right wing press can fawn at his feet calling him the next Winston Churchill !

    He then can ride a wave of nationalism and no one messes with Global Britain euphoria to the next election !
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,346
    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
    Yes. I agree. Starmer is nailing it as regards winning the election and I'm on board with it. We just have to remove the Cons. But on the left we can dream of a Labour leader *of* the left who is brighter and more contemporary than Jeremy Corbyn. I know we can because I do!
    Even Starmer would be the most leftwing elected PM we have had since Harold Wilson
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,565
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
    Yes. I agree. Starmer is nailing it as regards winning the election and I'm on board with it. We just have to remove the Cons. But on the left we can dream of a Labour leader *of* the left who is brighter and more contemporary than Jeremy Corbyn. I know we can because I do!
    Even Starmer would be the most leftwing elected PM we have had since Harold Wilson
    Yep. And respect for insisting on 'would' over 'will'. Very disciplined.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,594
    ...
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
    Yes. I agree. Starmer is nailing it as regards winning the election and I'm on board with it. We just have to remove the Cons. But on the left we can dream of a Labour leader *of* the left who is brighter and more contemporary than Jeremy Corbyn. I know we can because I do!
    Even Starmer would be the most leftwing elected PM we have had since Harold Wilson
    You keep repeating this with no substantiation. Anyway, I was a big fan of Harold. I only wish Starmer were as wily.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,420
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    I do not think they have anything to do with each other at all.

    1. is quite possibly wrong, since US intelligence's guesses have not proved better than random - except for the prediction of the invasion itself, which was detailed and spot on.

    The F16s aren't going to be relevant until halfway through next year, probably.

    What would make a difference, immediately and significantly, would be the supply of HIMARS rockets with cluster munition warheads.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
    Yes. I agree. Starmer is nailing it as regards winning the election and I'm on board with it. We just have to remove the Cons. But on the left we can dream of a Labour leader *of* the left who is brighter and more contemporary than Jeremy Corbyn. I know we can because I do!
    Even Starmer would be the most leftwing elected PM we have had since Harold Wilson
    Well considering this present government is the most leftwing since Harold Wilson (even if the PM wasn't elected) that's not exactly a challenge.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,420
    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    FPT someone brought up the potential new Argentine Pres. has he made any pronouncements on the Falklands? Surely if you were Putin you would be chucking money at him to ramp it up to divert UK defence attention/spending/kit there and so reduce what’s coming at him in Ukraine? I’m too lazy to research it myself so if anyone knows it’s much appreciated.

    He has said he supports self determination by the Falkland Islanders and diplomacy, he would actually be a better President for the UK than the current one.

    The Kirchners and their party have been much more bellicose on the Falklands than Milei is and the Kirchners are also pro Putin

    "Falklands: Milei favors diplomacy and the Hong Kong model, respecting people's wishes — MercoPress" https://en.mercopress.com/2023/08/14/falklands-milei-favors-diplomacy-and-the-hong-kong-model-respecting-people-s-wishes
    Thanks for the answer, although the Hong Kong model doesn’t bode well…
    The Falkland is entirely defensible; Hong Kong wasn't even vaguely so.
    The HK treaty model would therefore be fine.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,953
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
    Yes. I agree. Starmer is nailing it as regards winning the election and I'm on board with it. We just have to remove the Cons. But on the left we can dream of a Labour leader *of* the left who is brighter and more contemporary than Jeremy Corbyn. I know we can because I do!
    Even Starmer would be the most leftwing elected PM we have had since Harold Wilson
    Given we've only had Blair in between, it's not a very useful comparison.

    Who would you consider the most right-wing Conservative elected - the list is Heath, Thatcher, Major, Cameron and Johnson? I discount May because she never won a majority - all the others did at least once.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,565
    edited August 2023

    Anyway, it's my 10th wedding anniversary so I'm off for the night.

    Have a good evening, everyone.

    Congratulations!
    Ditto. So if he's on here later it's time to worry!
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,420

    Anyway, it's my 10th wedding anniversary so I'm off for the night.

    Have a good evening, everyone.

    Wishing you many happy decades more.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,420
    Ghedebrav said:

    nico679 said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to post this (confirmation bias plus my feeling that one should fight when things get hard, not run away) but if the Telegraph is now posting stuff like this, things are not good.

    https://12ft.io/proxy?&q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/08/17/under-50-time-jump-ship-leave-britain

    From the paper that celebrated the loss of FOM and now is telling people to leave the country . And trying to suggest America with its rampant gun crime and where half the country are nutjob Trump supporters is better than the UK . No thanks !

    The UK has its problems but at least you can go out without fear of getting your head blown off !
    It’s just clickbait nonsense.
    That, and an admission of sorts.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,082
    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    FPT someone brought up the potential new Argentine Pres. has he made any pronouncements on the Falklands? Surely if you were Putin you would be chucking money at him to ramp it up to divert UK defence attention/spending/kit there and so reduce what’s coming at him in Ukraine? I’m too lazy to research it myself so if anyone knows it’s much appreciated.

    He has said he supports self determination by the Falkland Islanders and diplomacy, he would actually be a better President for the UK than the current one.

    The Kirchners and their party have been much more bellicose on the Falklands than Milei is and the Kirchners are also pro Putin

    "Falklands: Milei favors diplomacy and the Hong Kong model, respecting people's wishes — MercoPress" https://en.mercopress.com/2023/08/14/falklands-milei-favors-diplomacy-and-the-hong-kong-model-respecting-people-s-wishes
    Thanks for the answer, although the Hong Kong model doesn’t bode well…
    Milei is interesting. Described as “far right” but that moniker has been thrown around a bit loosely recently. He seems to be a bit of a Bolsonaro, combined with a smattering of Redwood and Dan Hannan. Not an ultra-nationalist. To me far right implies ethnic supremacism, which doesn’t seem to feature.

    Argentina is one of those democracies with outsized political importance considering its diminutive economy and population. Like Greece, Serbia or New Zealand.
  • Options

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
    Yes. I agree. Starmer is nailing it as regards winning the election and I'm on board with it. We just have to remove the Cons. But on the left we can dream of a Labour leader *of* the left who is brighter and more contemporary than Jeremy Corbyn. I know we can because I do!
    Even Starmer would be the most leftwing elected PM we have had since Harold Wilson
    You keep repeating this with no substantiation. Anyway, I was a big fan of Harold. I only wish Starmer were as wily.
    He plods, sure. What was that fairly friendly profile that described Starmer as a tortoise?

    But he does the habit of getting what he wants.
  • Options
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
    Yes. I agree. Starmer is nailing it as regards winning the election and I'm on board with it. We just have to remove the Cons. But on the left we can dream of a Labour leader *of* the left who is brighter and more contemporary than Jeremy Corbyn. I know we can because I do!
    Even Starmer would be the most leftwing elected PM we have had since Harold Wilson
    Given we've only had Blair in between, it's not a very useful comparison.

    Who would you consider the most right-wing Conservative elected - the list is Heath, Thatcher, Major, Cameron and Johnson? I discount May because she never won a majority - all the others did at least once.
    You think Blair is the most left wing PM since Wilson? Bold statement.

    How do we define left? Tax? Spend? Redistribution?

    Is the share of taxation overall higher or lower now than when Blair left office? Or when Brown did?

    Is spending on redistribution/"social protection" higher or lower now than when Blair left office? Or when Brown did?
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 4,166
    Don’t cha just love BBC radio 4 comedy. Just tuned in as saw a new show and was treated by the host and Spanish comedian mocking Brits in hackneyed terms, the best was the Spanish chap ranting about us not being able to pronounce Paella and Mallorca as he pronounces at the same time as not speaking with a perfect English accent whilst using English words. We are a truly evil nation.

    Yay, now the Malawian comedian having a go, followed by an Aussie making the audience roar mocking King Charles. What an enormous pile of wank. Just turning off at the point that “white men” have been blamed for everything.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,345

    NYT - Trump Plans to Skip G.O.P. Debate for Interview With Tucker Carlson

    Donald Trump’s apparent decision to skip the first debate is an affront both to the Republican National Committee and to Fox News, which is hosting the event.

    Interestingly, Tucker's Twitter (sorry "X") show has been a bit of a failure. Even his most popular videos have only been watched a few hundred thousand times, while others have failed to break the 100k barrier.

    And when you're only producing one video every four days, that isn't a great performance.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,209

    NYT - Trump Plans to Skip G.O.P. Debate for Interview With Tucker Carlson

    Donald Trump’s apparent decision to skip the first debate is an affront both to the Republican National Committee and to Fox News, which is hosting the event.

    What a shocking decision.

    Really it makes a lot of sense though, there's no upside for him. What's the RNC going to do about it?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,345

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
    Yes. I agree. Starmer is nailing it as regards winning the election and I'm on board with it. We just have to remove the Cons. But on the left we can dream of a Labour leader *of* the left who is brighter and more contemporary than Jeremy Corbyn. I know we can because I do!
    Even Starmer would be the most leftwing elected PM we have had since Harold Wilson
    Given we've only had Blair in between, it's not a very useful comparison.

    Who would you consider the most right-wing Conservative elected - the list is Heath, Thatcher, Major, Cameron and Johnson? I discount May because she never won a majority - all the others did at least once.
    You think Blair is the most left wing PM since Wilson? Bold statement.

    How do we define left? Tax? Spend? Redistribution?

    Is the share of taxation overall higher or lower now than when Blair left office? Or when Brown did?

    Is spending on redistribution/"social protection" higher or lower now than when Blair left office? Or when Brown did?
    @HYUFD chose his words very carefully: he said elected Prime Minister.

    In other words, no Callaghan, no Brown, no Sunak, and no Truss.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,209
    rcs1000 said:

    NYT - Trump Plans to Skip G.O.P. Debate for Interview With Tucker Carlson

    Donald Trump’s apparent decision to skip the first debate is an affront both to the Republican National Committee and to Fox News, which is hosting the event.

    Interestingly, Tucker's Twitter (sorry "X") show has been a bit of a failure. Even his most popular videos have only been watched a few hundred thousand times, while others have failed to break the 100k barrier.

    And when you're only producing one video every four days, that isn't a great performance.
    Musk must be very disappointed, what a shame.

    I assume it's because people can already get their fill of conspiracist ranting on youtube and other platforms already - for all the moaning about the 'mainstream' media, people like seeing pandering of that nature from a 'proper' show on Fox or whatever, it gives it more gravitas.
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,469

    NYT - Trump Plans to Skip G.O.P. Debate for Interview With Tucker Carlson

    Donald Trump’s apparent decision to skip the first debate is an affront both to the Republican National Committee and to Fox News, which is hosting the event.

    Wonder if his campaign is worried about him being savaged by Christie in the debates. My impression is that Christie is in this mainly to do as much damage to Trump as possible not because he thinks he has any chance of actually winning.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,116
    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    FPT someone brought up the potential new Argentine Pres. has he made any pronouncements on the Falklands? Surely if you were Putin you would be chucking money at him to ramp it up to divert UK defence attention/spending/kit there and so reduce what’s coming at him in Ukraine? I’m too lazy to research it myself so if anyone knows it’s much appreciated.

    He has said he supports self determination by the Falkland Islanders and diplomacy, he would actually be a better President for the UK than the current one.

    The Kirchners and their party have been much more bellicose on the Falklands than Milei is and the Kirchners are also pro Putin

    "Falklands: Milei favors diplomacy and the Hong Kong model, respecting people's wishes — MercoPress" https://en.mercopress.com/2023/08/14/falklands-milei-favors-diplomacy-and-the-hong-kong-model-respecting-people-s-wishes
    The Hong Kong model…? Hmmm, how well has that model turned out in Hong Kong?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,209
    Andy_JS said:

    "The Population of California Declined, Again
    In 2022, the state’s population dropped by roughly 138,400 people, to 38.94 million.
    By Soumya Karlamangla"

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/03/us/california-population-decline.html

    Texas to become the biggest state in due course?
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,562

    Anyway, it's my 10th wedding anniversary so I'm off for the night.

    Have a good evening, everyone.

    What’s the wife doing while you’re out?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,209
    kinabalu said:

    I think this supports my theory that GE17 flattered Jez (because of Brexit) and GE19 did the opposite (because of Brexit), his true 'par' appeal lying midway between the two, ie 'distinctly unappealing but just short of irredeemably toxic'.

    The difference between being Jeremy or Piers.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,116
    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    FPT someone brought up the potential new Argentine Pres. has he made any pronouncements on the Falklands? Surely if you were Putin you would be chucking money at him to ramp it up to divert UK defence attention/spending/kit there and so reduce what’s coming at him in Ukraine? I’m too lazy to research it myself so if anyone knows it’s much appreciated.

    He has said he supports self determination by the Falkland Islanders and diplomacy, he would actually be a better President for the UK than the current one.

    The Kirchners and their party have been much more bellicose on the Falklands than Milei is and the Kirchners are also pro Putin

    "Falklands: Milei favors diplomacy and the Hong Kong model, respecting people's wishes — MercoPress" https://en.mercopress.com/2023/08/14/falklands-milei-favors-diplomacy-and-the-hong-kong-model-respecting-people-s-wishes
    Thanks for the answer, although the Hong Kong model doesn’t bode well…
    Milei is interesting. Described as “far right” but that moniker has been thrown around a bit loosely recently. He seems to be a bit of a Bolsonaro, combined with a smattering of Redwood and Dan Hannan. Not an ultra-nationalist. To me far right implies ethnic supremacism, which doesn’t seem to feature.

    Argentina is one of those democracies with outsized political importance considering its diminutive economy and population. Like Greece, Serbia or New Zealand.
    He’s the modern version of far right, all vaccine conspiracies and the like.

  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
    Yes. I agree. Starmer is nailing it as regards winning the election and I'm on board with it. We just have to remove the Cons. But on the left we can dream of a Labour leader *of* the left who is brighter and more contemporary than Jeremy Corbyn. I know we can because I do!
    Even Starmer would be the most leftwing elected PM we have had since Harold Wilson
    Given we've only had Blair in between, it's not a very useful comparison.

    Who would you consider the most right-wing Conservative elected - the list is Heath, Thatcher, Major, Cameron and Johnson? I discount May because she never won a majority - all the others did at least once.
    You think Blair is the most left wing PM since Wilson? Bold statement.

    How do we define left? Tax? Spend? Redistribution?

    Is the share of taxation overall higher or lower now than when Blair left office? Or when Brown did?

    Is spending on redistribution/"social protection" higher or lower now than when Blair left office? Or when Brown did?
    @HYUFD chose his words very carefully: he said elected Prime Minister.

    In other words, no Callaghan, no Brown, no Sunak, and no Truss.
    Yes. And I see no evidence that Blair is to the right of Johnson.

    As a share of GDP ...
    Who left taxes higher: Blair or Johnson?
    Who left social protection expenditure higher: Blair or Johnson?

    Or same question for their Chancellor's if you like, Brown v Sunak.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,209

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    FPT someone brought up the potential new Argentine Pres. has he made any pronouncements on the Falklands? Surely if you were Putin you would be chucking money at him to ramp it up to divert UK defence attention/spending/kit there and so reduce what’s coming at him in Ukraine? I’m too lazy to research it myself so if anyone knows it’s much appreciated.

    He has said he supports self determination by the Falkland Islanders and diplomacy, he would actually be a better President for the UK than the current one.

    The Kirchners and their party have been much more bellicose on the Falklands than Milei is and the Kirchners are also pro Putin

    "Falklands: Milei favors diplomacy and the Hong Kong model, respecting people's wishes — MercoPress" https://en.mercopress.com/2023/08/14/falklands-milei-favors-diplomacy-and-the-hong-kong-model-respecting-people-s-wishes
    The Hong Kong model…? Hmmm, how well has that model turned out in Hong Kong?
    Lasted a surprisingly long time to be honest. The CCP got properly spooked a few years ago and sadly learned their lesson.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,345
    kle4 said:

    NYT - Trump Plans to Skip G.O.P. Debate for Interview With Tucker Carlson

    Donald Trump’s apparent decision to skip the first debate is an affront both to the Republican National Committee and to Fox News, which is hosting the event.

    What a shocking decision.

    Really it makes a lot of sense though, there's no upside for him. What's the RNC going to do about it?
    While it's been likely for some time, it is not without its risks.

    Firstly, no one is going to watch Tucker's show.

    Secondly, what if someone really shines in the debate?

    (Not only that, but the NYTimes polling has shown what the most effective line for Republicans is: "yes, I like former President Trump too. But with inditement after inditement, making him the nominee is asking to but Biden back in the White House." With Trump not there, pretty much everyone can hammer than point home. Alongside, maybe, him being frit.)
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,221
    edited August 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
    Yes. I agree. Starmer is nailing it as regards winning the election and I'm on board with it. We just have to remove the Cons. But on the left we can dream of a Labour leader *of* the left who is brighter and more contemporary than Jeremy Corbyn. I know we can because I do!
    Even Starmer would be the most leftwing elected PM we have had since Harold Wilson
    Given we've only had Blair in between, it's not a very useful comparison.

    Who would you consider the most right-wing Conservative elected - the list is Heath, Thatcher, Major, Cameron and Johnson? I discount May because she never won a majority - all the others did at least once.
    You think Blair is the most left wing PM since Wilson? Bold statement.

    How do we define left? Tax? Spend? Redistribution?

    Is the share of taxation overall higher or lower now than when Blair left office? Or when Brown did?

    Is spending on redistribution/"social protection" higher or lower now than when Blair left office? Or when Brown did?
    @HYUFD chose his words very carefully: he said elected Prime Minister.

    In other words, no Callaghan, no Brown, no Sunak, and no Truss.
    Er. No such thing as an elected PM (unless you reckon the PCP or the Party as an electorate within the constitutional meaning of the word).

    It's only elected MPs.

    And all PMs are 'elected' in the other sense by their party or party members.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,607
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,209
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    NYT - Trump Plans to Skip G.O.P. Debate for Interview With Tucker Carlson

    Donald Trump’s apparent decision to skip the first debate is an affront both to the Republican National Committee and to Fox News, which is hosting the event.

    What a shocking decision.

    Really it makes a lot of sense though, there's no upside for him. What's the RNC going to do about it?
    While it's been likely for some time, it is not without its risks.

    Firstly, no one is going to watch Tucker's show.

    Secondly, what if someone really shines in the debate?

    (Not only that, but the NYTimes polling has shown what the most effective line for Republicans is: "yes, I like former President Trump too. But with inditement after inditement, making him the nominee is asking to but Biden back in the White House." With Trump not there, pretty much everyone can hammer than point home. Alongside, maybe, him being frit.)
    Maybe, although will really no one watch Tucker's show for this one at least? Trump is box office, and so batsh*t he somehow still managed to surprise.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
    That's true, but this time last year would you have been ok with the thought that in a years time the question would be how or when Ukraine would liberate the territory that it hasn't liberated yet?

    Rather than whether Russia is going to be able to still push on to take even more land.

    The fact that Russia is being purely defensive and stretched at that is a good sign.

    Russia is depleting it's forces and has fewer and fewer stockpiled Cold War machines to add to the mix.

    Ukraine hasn't even got it's F16s yet. It's forces are strengthening not weakening.

    This war is currently ratcheting one way. Long may that continue.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,209
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
    Throwing masses of men at the problem definitely seems to have had some effect. And they have generally withdrawn in better order than would be helpful unfortunately. Fingers crossed.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,607
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
    Yes. I agree. Starmer is nailing it as regards winning the election and I'm on board with it. We just have to remove the Cons. But on the left we can dream of a Labour leader *of* the left who is brighter and more contemporary than Jeremy Corbyn. I know we can because I do!
    Even Starmer would be the most leftwing elected PM we have had since Harold Wilson
    You think? I don't see him being more left wing than Brown or Callaghan to be honest. I accept he is playing his cards pretty close to his chest.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,368
    edited August 2023
    O/T

    Question: which country in north-west Europe (and indeed also northern Europe as a whole) has the lowest suicide rate?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,399

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    FPT someone brought up the potential new Argentine Pres. has he made any pronouncements on the Falklands? Surely if you were Putin you would be chucking money at him to ramp it up to divert UK defence attention/spending/kit there and so reduce what’s coming at him in Ukraine? I’m too lazy to research it myself so if anyone knows it’s much appreciated.

    He has said he supports self determination by the Falkland Islanders and diplomacy, he would actually be a better President for the UK than the current one.

    The Kirchners and their party have been much more bellicose on the Falklands than Milei is and the Kirchners are also pro Putin

    "Falklands: Milei favors diplomacy and the Hong Kong model, respecting people's wishes — MercoPress" https://en.mercopress.com/2023/08/14/falklands-milei-favors-diplomacy-and-the-hong-kong-model-respecting-people-s-wishes
    Thanks for the answer, although the Hong Kong model doesn’t bode well…
    Milei is interesting. Described as “far right” but that moniker has been thrown around a bit loosely recently. He seems to be a bit of a Bolsonaro, combined with a smattering of Redwood and Dan Hannan. Not an ultra-nationalist. To me far right implies ethnic supremacism, which doesn’t seem to feature.

    Argentina is one of those democracies with outsized political importance considering its diminutive economy and population. Like Greece, Serbia or New Zealand.
    He’s the modern version of far right, all vaccine conspiracies and the like.
    He says he's pro-vaccines and pro-science:

    https://twitter.com/C5N/status/1462897053856641027
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,607

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
    That's true, but this time last year would you have been ok with the thought that in a years time the question would be how or when Ukraine would liberate the territory that it hasn't liberated yet?

    Rather than whether Russia is going to be able to still push on to take even more land.

    The fact that Russia is being purely defensive and stretched at that is a good sign.

    Russia is depleting it's forces and has fewer and fewer stockpiled Cold War machines to add to the mix.

    Ukraine hasn't even got it's F16s yet. It's forces are strengthening not weakening.

    This war is currently ratcheting one way. Long may that continue.
    My fear is that the last few months have seriously hurt Ukraine with a lot of very good men lost for not much return. I am not sure how long they can sustain this.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,116
    Javier Milei is…

    Pro-Trump
    Pro-gun
    Anti-abortion
    Anti-workers’ rights
    Pro-Al Capone
    Anti-sex education
    Vaccine sceptical
    Pro-selling human organs
    Pro-tantric sex
    Pro-Israel
    Anti-tax
    Doesn’t believe in climate change
    Mixed views on trans rights
    Sang in a Rolling Stones cover band
    Pro-free love
    Pro-group sex
    Catholic
    Pro-dog
    Anti-government funding of science
    Pro-Bitcoin
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,607
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Question: which country in north-west Europe (and indeed also northern Europe as a whole) has the lowest suicide rate?

    Us?
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 4,166

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    FPT someone brought up the potential new Argentine Pres. has he made any pronouncements on the Falklands? Surely if you were Putin you would be chucking money at him to ramp it up to divert UK defence attention/spending/kit there and so reduce what’s coming at him in Ukraine? I’m too lazy to research it myself so if anyone knows it’s much appreciated.

    He has said he supports self determination by the Falkland Islanders and diplomacy, he would actually be a better President for the UK than the current one.

    The Kirchners and their party have been much more bellicose on the Falklands than Milei is and the Kirchners are also pro Putin

    "Falklands: Milei favors diplomacy and the Hong Kong model, respecting people's wishes — MercoPress" https://en.mercopress.com/2023/08/14/falklands-milei-favors-diplomacy-and-the-hong-kong-model-respecting-people-s-wishes
    Thanks for the answer, although the Hong Kong model doesn’t bode well…
    Milei is interesting. Described as “far right” but that moniker has been thrown around a bit loosely recently. He seems to be a bit of a Bolsonaro, combined with a smattering of Redwood and Dan Hannan. Not an ultra-nationalist. To me far right implies ethnic supremacism, which doesn’t seem to feature.

    Argentina is one of those democracies with outsized political importance considering its diminutive economy and population. Like Greece, Serbia or New Zealand.
    He’s the modern version of far right, all vaccine conspiracies and the like.
    He says he's pro-vaccines and pro-science:

    https://twitter.com/C5N/status/1462897053856641027
    There are two countries I wish/ wonder what would have happened if they had been colonised and been part of the British Empire, Argentina and Mexico. I know that Britain had big influence on Argentina but never formative control and Mexico might have been another Australia - what a stunning messed up country.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,082

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
    That's true, but this time last year would you have been ok with the thought that in a years time the question would be how or when Ukraine would liberate the territory that it hasn't liberated yet?

    Rather than whether Russia is going to be able to still push on to take even more land.

    The fact that Russia is being purely defensive and stretched at that is a good sign.

    Russia is depleting it's forces and has fewer and fewer stockpiled Cold War machines to add to the mix.

    Ukraine hasn't even got it's F16s yet. It's forces are strengthening not weakening.

    This war is currently ratcheting one way. Long may that continue.
    The F16s thing is really odd. I really don’t get why there’s reluctance on supplying them. First flown in 1974, just about the most prevalent fighter jet worldwide, it’s hardly some cutting edge new generation super-weapon.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,082

    Javier Milei is…

    Pro-Trump
    Pro-gun
    Anti-abortion
    Anti-workers’ rights
    Pro-Al Capone
    Anti-sex education
    Vaccine sceptical
    Pro-selling human organs
    Pro-tantric sex
    Pro-Israel
    Anti-tax
    Doesn’t believe in climate change
    Mixed views on trans rights
    Sang in a Rolling Stones cover band
    Pro-free love
    Pro-group sex
    Catholic
    Pro-dog
    Anti-government funding of science
    Pro-Bitcoin

    Basically some typical crypto-bro off Twitter then.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,491
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
    Yes. I agree. Starmer is nailing it as regards winning the election and I'm on board with it. We just have to remove the Cons. But on the left we can dream of a Labour leader *of* the left who is brighter and more contemporary than Jeremy Corbyn. I know we can because I do!
    Even Starmer would be the most leftwing elected PM we have had since Harold Wilson
    You think? I don't see him being more left wing than Brown or Callaghan to be honest. I accept he is playing his cards pretty close to his chest.
    Well, there's Callaghan as he would have wanted to be in an ideal world, and Callaghan as the IMF forced him to be...
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
    That's true, but this time last year would you have been ok with the thought that in a years time the question would be how or when Ukraine would liberate the territory that it hasn't liberated yet?

    Rather than whether Russia is going to be able to still push on to take even more land.

    The fact that Russia is being purely defensive and stretched at that is a good sign.

    Russia is depleting it's forces and has fewer and fewer stockpiled Cold War machines to add to the mix.

    Ukraine hasn't even got it's F16s yet. It's forces are strengthening not weakening.

    This war is currently ratcheting one way. Long may that continue.
    My fear is that the last few months have seriously hurt Ukraine with a lot of very good men lost for not much return. I am not sure how long they can sustain this.
    Well wars often last years like this.

    If they don't make a major breakthrough this year, and I hope they do, then hopefully they can regroup, be reinforced and go again next year with better armaments and F16s to support them.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,607
    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
    That's true, but this time last year would you have been ok with the thought that in a years time the question would be how or when Ukraine would liberate the territory that it hasn't liberated yet?

    Rather than whether Russia is going to be able to still push on to take even more land.

    The fact that Russia is being purely defensive and stretched at that is a good sign.

    Russia is depleting it's forces and has fewer and fewer stockpiled Cold War machines to add to the mix.

    Ukraine hasn't even got it's F16s yet. It's forces are strengthening not weakening.

    This war is currently ratcheting one way. Long may that continue.
    The F16s thing is really odd. I really don’t get why there’s reluctance on supplying them. First flown in 1974, just about the most prevalent fighter jet worldwide, it’s hardly some cutting edge new generation super-weapon.
    It looks incredibly like a NATO fighter raiding into Russian soil. The room for serious misunderstandings is multiplied scarily. And there is an argument about how useful they will be when both sides seem to have seriously effective anti aircraft tech.
  • Options
    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Question: which country in north-west Europe (and indeed also northern Europe as a whole) has the lowest suicide rate?

    A feelgood pub quiz Q.

    Unknowable because of different reporting standards; one country's topped himself is another's unfortunate accident cleaning his gun.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,607
    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to post this (confirmation bias plus my feeling that one should fight when things get hard, not run away) but if the Telegraph is now posting stuff like this, things are not good.

    https://12ft.io/proxy?&q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/08/17/under-50-time-jump-ship-leave-britain

    Traditional response. When the going gets tough, the tough get going...abroad.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,116

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    FPT someone brought up the potential new Argentine Pres. has he made any pronouncements on the Falklands? Surely if you were Putin you would be chucking money at him to ramp it up to divert UK defence attention/spending/kit there and so reduce what’s coming at him in Ukraine? I’m too lazy to research it myself so if anyone knows it’s much appreciated.

    He has said he supports self determination by the Falkland Islanders and diplomacy, he would actually be a better President for the UK than the current one.

    The Kirchners and their party have been much more bellicose on the Falklands than Milei is and the Kirchners are also pro Putin

    "Falklands: Milei favors diplomacy and the Hong Kong model, respecting people's wishes — MercoPress" https://en.mercopress.com/2023/08/14/falklands-milei-favors-diplomacy-and-the-hong-kong-model-respecting-people-s-wishes
    Thanks for the answer, although the Hong Kong model doesn’t bode well…
    Milei is interesting. Described as “far right” but that moniker has been thrown around a bit loosely recently. He seems to be a bit of a Bolsonaro, combined with a smattering of Redwood and Dan Hannan. Not an ultra-nationalist. To me far right implies ethnic supremacism, which doesn’t seem to feature.

    Argentina is one of those democracies with outsized political importance considering its diminutive economy and population. Like Greece, Serbia or New Zealand.
    He’s the modern version of far right, all vaccine conspiracies and the like.
    He says he's pro-vaccines and pro-science:

    https://twitter.com/C5N/status/1462897053856641027
    https://www.batimes.com.ar/news/argentina/milei-confirms-he-would-close-conicet-scientific-research-council.phtml “Javier Milei confirms he would close CONICET scientific research council”

    https://country.eiu.com/article.aspx?articleid=462085029&subtopic_1 The Economist: “[He] has expressed scepticism about the efficacy of covid-19 vaccines.”
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,345

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    FPT someone brought up the potential new Argentine Pres. has he made any pronouncements on the Falklands? Surely if you were Putin you would be chucking money at him to ramp it up to divert UK defence attention/spending/kit there and so reduce what’s coming at him in Ukraine? I’m too lazy to research it myself so if anyone knows it’s much appreciated.

    He has said he supports self determination by the Falkland Islanders and diplomacy, he would actually be a better President for the UK than the current one.

    The Kirchners and their party have been much more bellicose on the Falklands than Milei is and the Kirchners are also pro Putin

    "Falklands: Milei favors diplomacy and the Hong Kong model, respecting people's wishes — MercoPress" https://en.mercopress.com/2023/08/14/falklands-milei-favors-diplomacy-and-the-hong-kong-model-respecting-people-s-wishes
    Thanks for the answer, although the Hong Kong model doesn’t bode well…
    Milei is interesting. Described as “far right” but that moniker has been thrown around a bit loosely recently. He seems to be a bit of a Bolsonaro, combined with a smattering of Redwood and Dan Hannan. Not an ultra-nationalist. To me far right implies ethnic supremacism, which doesn’t seem to feature.

    Argentina is one of those democracies with outsized political importance considering its diminutive economy and population. Like Greece, Serbia or New Zealand.
    He’s the modern version of far right, all vaccine conspiracies and the like.
    He says he's pro-vaccines and pro-science:

    https://twitter.com/C5N/status/1462897053856641027
    RFK also says he's pro-vaccines.

    People who have to say their pro-vaccines and usually anti-vax.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,420
    boulay said:

    Don’t cha just love BBC radio 4 comedy. Just tuned in as saw a new show and was treated by the host and Spanish comedian mocking Brits in hackneyed terms, the best was the Spanish chap ranting about us not being able to pronounce Paella and Mallorca as he pronounces at the same time as not speaking with a perfect English accent whilst using English words. We are a truly evil nation.

    Yay, now the Malawian comedian having a go, followed by an Aussie making the audience roar mocking King Charles. What an enormous pile of wank. Just turning off at the point that “white men” have been blamed for everything.

    Sounds like a mirror image of 1970s TV.
    That was shit, too.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,607

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
    Yes. I agree. Starmer is nailing it as regards winning the election and I'm on board with it. We just have to remove the Cons. But on the left we can dream of a Labour leader *of* the left who is brighter and more contemporary than Jeremy Corbyn. I know we can because I do!
    Even Starmer would be the most leftwing elected PM we have had since Harold Wilson
    You think? I don't see him being more left wing than Brown or Callaghan to be honest. I accept he is playing his cards pretty close to his chest.
    Well, there's Callaghan as he would have wanted to be in an ideal world, and Callaghan as the IMF forced him to be...
    Very fair, but if SKS thinks he will have any more room for manoeuvre he is delusional. Truss showed that even Tory PMs have fine margins to play with.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,953
    edited August 2023

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
    Yes. I agree. Starmer is nailing it as regards winning the election and I'm on board with it. We just have to remove the Cons. But on the left we can dream of a Labour leader *of* the left who is brighter and more contemporary than Jeremy Corbyn. I know we can because I do!
    Even Starmer would be the most leftwing elected PM we have had since Harold Wilson
    Given we've only had Blair in between, it's not a very useful comparison.

    Who would you consider the most right-wing Conservative elected - the list is Heath, Thatcher, Major, Cameron and Johnson? I discount May because she never won a majority - all the others did at least once.
    You think Blair is the most left wing PM since Wilson? Bold statement.

    How do we define left? Tax? Spend? Redistribution?

    Is the share of taxation overall higher or lower now than when Blair left office? Or when Brown did?

    Is spending on redistribution/"social protection" higher or lower now than when Blair left office? Or when Brown did?
    No, we've had only two Labour leaders elected into office since Attlee - Wilson and Blair. I don't think it's much of an argument to suggest Wilson was to the left of Blair.

    It isn't easy to define "Left" and "Right" as you say. Blair in the 2000s would have been quite happy in Owen's SDP in the mid-80s.

    As for the Conservatives, Heath was elected on a much more radical manifesto than Thatcher's in 1979. I'm no Tory so it's not easy for me to say but I'd put Cameron, Major and to an extent Johnson more on the one nation side of the fence.

    The truth is radical manifestos rarely win - 1945 was exceptional so we're looking at "Selsdon Man" in 1970 as the last radical manifesto to win office - the 1983 Conservative manifesto was also radical but this was about re-election not winning power in the first place.

    You could again argue only Heath, Thatcher and Cameron have won power from opposition since 1970 on the Conservative side while Major and Johnson won re-election as Conservative governments.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,420
    rcs1000 said:

    NYT - Trump Plans to Skip G.O.P. Debate for Interview With Tucker Carlson

    Donald Trump’s apparent decision to skip the first debate is an affront both to the Republican National Committee and to Fox News, which is hosting the event.

    Interestingly, Tucker's Twitter (sorry "X") show has been a bit of a failure. Even his most popular videos have only been watched a few hundred thousand times, while others have failed to break the 100k barrier.

    And when you're only producing one video every four days, that isn't a great performance.
    I recall someone getting quite excited about the prospect of Tucker on Twitter.
    Name escapes me.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,399

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    boulay said:

    FPT someone brought up the potential new Argentine Pres. has he made any pronouncements on the Falklands? Surely if you were Putin you would be chucking money at him to ramp it up to divert UK defence attention/spending/kit there and so reduce what’s coming at him in Ukraine? I’m too lazy to research it myself so if anyone knows it’s much appreciated.

    He has said he supports self determination by the Falkland Islanders and diplomacy, he would actually be a better President for the UK than the current one.

    The Kirchners and their party have been much more bellicose on the Falklands than Milei is and the Kirchners are also pro Putin

    "Falklands: Milei favors diplomacy and the Hong Kong model, respecting people's wishes — MercoPress" https://en.mercopress.com/2023/08/14/falklands-milei-favors-diplomacy-and-the-hong-kong-model-respecting-people-s-wishes
    Thanks for the answer, although the Hong Kong model doesn’t bode well…
    Milei is interesting. Described as “far right” but that moniker has been thrown around a bit loosely recently. He seems to be a bit of a Bolsonaro, combined with a smattering of Redwood and Dan Hannan. Not an ultra-nationalist. To me far right implies ethnic supremacism, which doesn’t seem to feature.

    Argentina is one of those democracies with outsized political importance considering its diminutive economy and population. Like Greece, Serbia or New Zealand.
    He’s the modern version of far right, all vaccine conspiracies and the like.
    He says he's pro-vaccines and pro-science:

    https://twitter.com/C5N/status/1462897053856641027
    https://www.batimes.com.ar/news/argentina/milei-confirms-he-would-close-conicet-scientific-research-council.phtml “Javier Milei confirms he would close CONICET scientific research council”

    https://country.eiu.com/article.aspx?articleid=462085029&subtopic_1 The Economist: “[He] has expressed scepticism about the efficacy of covid-19 vaccines.”
    Given that Argentina was relying on Chinese vaccines, is 'scepticism' really a disqualifying attitude to have?
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,272
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Question: which country in north-west Europe (and indeed also northern Europe as a whole) has the lowest suicide rate?

    Iceland? Malta? Aland? The country with the strictest religious or legal constraints against suicide?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,082
    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
    That's true, but this time last year would you have been ok with the thought that in a years time the question would be how or when Ukraine would liberate the territory that it hasn't liberated yet?

    Rather than whether Russia is going to be able to still push on to take even more land.

    The fact that Russia is being purely defensive and stretched at that is a good sign.

    Russia is depleting it's forces and has fewer and fewer stockpiled Cold War machines to add to the mix.

    Ukraine hasn't even got it's F16s yet. It's forces are strengthening not weakening.

    This war is currently ratcheting one way. Long may that continue.
    The F16s thing is really odd. I really don’t get why there’s reluctance on supplying them. First flown in 1974, just about the most prevalent fighter jet worldwide, it’s hardly some cutting edge new generation super-weapon.
    It takes a lot of time to learn to fly such a plane, and even longer to learn how to maintain them.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,345
    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Question: which country in north-west Europe (and indeed also northern Europe as a whole) has the lowest suicide rate?

    Iceland? Malta? Aland? The country with the strictest religious or legal constraints against suicide?
    There's a massive north-South Euclid divide with suicide rates
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,082
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
    That's true, but this time last year would you have been ok with the thought that in a years time the question would be how or when Ukraine would liberate the territory that it hasn't liberated yet?

    Rather than whether Russia is going to be able to still push on to take even more land.

    The fact that Russia is being purely defensive and stretched at that is a good sign.

    Russia is depleting it's forces and has fewer and fewer stockpiled Cold War machines to add to the mix.

    Ukraine hasn't even got it's F16s yet. It's forces are strengthening not weakening.

    This war is currently ratcheting one way. Long may that continue.
    The F16s thing is really odd. I really don’t get why there’s reluctance on supplying them. First flown in 1974, just about the most prevalent fighter jet worldwide, it’s hardly some cutting edge new generation super-weapon.
    It takes a lot of time to learn to fly such a plane, and even longer to learn how to maintain them.
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
    That's true, but this time last year would you have been ok with the thought that in a years time the question would be how or when Ukraine would liberate the territory that it hasn't liberated yet?

    Rather than whether Russia is going to be able to still push on to take even more land.

    The fact that Russia is being purely defensive and stretched at that is a good sign.

    Russia is depleting it's forces and has fewer and fewer stockpiled Cold War machines to add to the mix.

    Ukraine hasn't even got it's F16s yet. It's forces are strengthening not weakening.

    This war is currently ratcheting one way. Long may that continue.
    The F16s thing is really odd. I really don’t get why there’s reluctance on supplying them. First flown in 1974, just about the most prevalent fighter jet worldwide, it’s hardly some cutting edge new generation super-weapon.
    It takes a lot of time to learn to fly such a plane, and even longer to learn how to maintain them.
    Then they need to get on and actually start training them.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,399
    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
    That's true, but this time last year would you have been ok with the thought that in a years time the question would be how or when Ukraine would liberate the territory that it hasn't liberated yet?

    Rather than whether Russia is going to be able to still push on to take even more land.

    The fact that Russia is being purely defensive and stretched at that is a good sign.

    Russia is depleting it's forces and has fewer and fewer stockpiled Cold War machines to add to the mix.

    Ukraine hasn't even got it's F16s yet. It's forces are strengthening not weakening.

    This war is currently ratcheting one way. Long may that continue.
    The F16s thing is really odd. I really don’t get why there’s reluctance on supplying them. First flown in 1974, just about the most prevalent fighter jet worldwide, it’s hardly some cutting edge new generation super-weapon.
    It looks incredibly like a NATO fighter raiding into Russian soil. The room for serious misunderstandings is multiplied scarily. And there is an argument about how useful they will be when both sides seem to have seriously effective anti aircraft tech.
    I don’t see why that’s anymore the case than MiGs and SUs raiding Ukrainian soil daily, when they’re not trying to spray jet fuel in American drones in the Black Sea or buzz Swedish jets in their airspace. And for that matter several NATO members themselves using former Soviet aircraft.

    It’s this weird asymmetric fear of provocation that is frankly baffling. Let Russia act like a complete c*nt, but pussyfoot around just in case we make them a bit cross.
    Remember that a NATO country directly shot down a Russian fighter jet not so long ago and there were no repercussions.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,082
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
    That's true, but this time last year would you have been ok with the thought that in a years time the question would be how or when Ukraine would liberate the territory that it hasn't liberated yet?

    Rather than whether Russia is going to be able to still push on to take even more land.

    The fact that Russia is being purely defensive and stretched at that is a good sign.

    Russia is depleting it's forces and has fewer and fewer stockpiled Cold War machines to add to the mix.

    Ukraine hasn't even got it's F16s yet. It's forces are strengthening not weakening.

    This war is currently ratcheting one way. Long may that continue.
    My fear is that the last few months have seriously hurt Ukraine with a lot of very good men lost for not much return. I am not sure how long they can sustain this.
    This is 1917, with the Ukranians equivalent of Kitchener's New Armies learning how to fight, and with Russian army mutinies. It takes a while to learn the hard way how to break down defensive entrenchments.

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,607
    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
    That's true, but this time last year would you have been ok with the thought that in a years time the question would be how or when Ukraine would liberate the territory that it hasn't liberated yet?

    Rather than whether Russia is going to be able to still push on to take even more land.

    The fact that Russia is being purely defensive and stretched at that is a good sign.

    Russia is depleting it's forces and has fewer and fewer stockpiled Cold War machines to add to the mix.

    Ukraine hasn't even got it's F16s yet. It's forces are strengthening not weakening.

    This war is currently ratcheting one way. Long may that continue.
    The F16s thing is really odd. I really don’t get why there’s reluctance on supplying them. First flown in 1974, just about the most prevalent fighter jet worldwide, it’s hardly some cutting edge new generation super-weapon.
    It looks incredibly like a NATO fighter raiding into Russian soil. The room for serious misunderstandings is multiplied scarily. And there is an argument about how useful they will be when both sides seem to have seriously effective anti aircraft tech.
    I don’t see why that’s anymore the case than MiGs and SUs raiding Ukrainian soil daily, when they’re not trying to spray jet fuel in American drones in the Black Sea or buzz Swedish jets in their airspace. And for that matter several NATO members themselves using former Soviet aircraft.

    It’s this weird asymmetric fear of provocation that is frankly baffling. Let Russia act like a complete c*nt, but pussyfoot around just in case we make them a bit cross.
    The US are providing hundreds of thousands of rounds of cluster bombs which are ripping Russian soldiers to pieces. We supplied Storm Shadow cruise missiles and anti tank weaponry which has proven deadly. I don't think anyone is concerned about the Russians being cross. But there is a difference between that and having Russia believe NATO is directly attacking them.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,399
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Question: which country in north-west Europe (and indeed also northern Europe as a whole) has the lowest suicide rate?

    Iceland? Malta? Aland? The country with the strictest religious or legal constraints against suicide?
    There's a massive north-South Euclid divide with suicide rates
    That's axiomatic.
  • Options
  • Options
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    I hesitate to understand the point that is made by this poll. Can we have one where we work out how well Labour would do under Hugh Gaitskell? How about John McDonnell (in my headcanon he would have won in 2017)?

    How about Robocop? "We polled 25,153 voters via MRP and the result was Alex Murphy (Lab) 35%, Jon Pertwee (Con) 33%, and Pamela Lillian Isley (Green) 25%".

    The point is obvious. Those on the Labour Left grumbling about the latest triangulation from PM-in-waiting Keir Starmer need to give their head a wobble and ask themselves if they really would prefer eternal Tory government to a Labour government with a centrist PM?
    Yes. I agree. Starmer is nailing it as regards winning the election and I'm on board with it. We just have to remove the Cons. But on the left we can dream of a Labour leader *of* the left who is brighter and more contemporary than Jeremy Corbyn. I know we can because I do!
    Even Starmer would be the most leftwing elected PM we have had since Harold Wilson
    Given we've only had Blair in between, it's not a very useful comparison.

    Who would you consider the most right-wing Conservative elected - the list is Heath, Thatcher, Major, Cameron and Johnson? I discount May because she never won a majority - all the others did at least once.
    You think Blair is the most left wing PM since Wilson? Bold statement.

    How do we define left? Tax? Spend? Redistribution?

    Is the share of taxation overall higher or lower now than when Blair left office? Or when Brown did?

    Is spending on redistribution/"social protection" higher or lower now than when Blair left office? Or when Brown did?
    No, we've had only two Labour leaders elected into office since Attlee - Wilson and Blair. I don't think it's much of an argument to suggest Wilson was to the left of Blair.

    It isn't easy to define "Left" and "Right" as you say. Blair in the 2000s would have been quite happy in Owen's SDP in the mid-80s.

    As for the Conservatives, Heath was elected on a much more radical manifesto than Thatcher's in 1979. I'm no Tory so it's not easy for me to say but I'd put Cameron, Major and to an extent Johnson more on the one nation side of the fence.

    The truth is radical manifestos rarely win - 1945 was exceptional so we're looking at "Selsdon Man" in 1970 as the last radical manifesto to win office - the 1983 Conservative manifesto was also radical but this was about re-election not winning power in the first place.

    You could again argue only Heath, Thatcher and Cameron have won power from opposition since 1970 on the Conservative side while Major and Johnson won re-election as Conservative governments.
    Yes I get that only Blair has won election for Labour in decades, but that doesn't make Blair automatically the most left wing PM in that time.

    The problem is that the Tories have ceased to be the pro market economy party. They're just another tax and spend party now.

    In the past the Tories were the party of aspiration, enterprise and business. Today the Tories are a party primarily for people who aren't in the workforce and who get substantial welfare instead.

    So under the Tories taxes and welfare have both risen now since Labour left office. Only welfare isn't aimed at the poor or needy anymore, but it's redistribution just the same!

    Higher taxes and higher redistribution today than under Blair. What else to call that other than left wing?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,082
    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
    That's true, but this time last year would you have been ok with the thought that in a years time the question would be how or when Ukraine would liberate the territory that it hasn't liberated yet?

    Rather than whether Russia is going to be able to still push on to take even more land.

    The fact that Russia is being purely defensive and stretched at that is a good sign.

    Russia is depleting it's forces and has fewer and fewer stockpiled Cold War machines to add to the mix.

    Ukraine hasn't even got it's F16s yet. It's forces are strengthening not weakening.

    This war is currently ratcheting one way. Long may that continue.
    The F16s thing is really odd. I really don’t get why there’s reluctance on supplying them. First flown in 1974, just about the most prevalent fighter jet worldwide, it’s hardly some cutting edge new generation super-weapon.
    It looks incredibly like a NATO fighter raiding into Russian soil. The room for serious misunderstandings is multiplied scarily. And there is an argument about how useful they will be when both sides seem to have seriously effective anti aircraft tech.
    I don’t see why that’s anymore the case than MiGs and SUs raiding Ukrainian soil daily, when they’re not trying to spray jet fuel in American drones in the Black Sea or buzz Swedish jets in their airspace. And for that matter several NATO members themselves using former Soviet aircraft.

    It’s this weird asymmetric fear of provocation that is frankly baffling. Let Russia act like a complete c*nt, but pussyfoot around just in case we make them a bit cross.
    The US are providing hundreds of thousands of rounds of cluster bombs which are ripping Russian soldiers to pieces. We supplied Storm Shadow cruise missiles and anti tank weaponry which has proven deadly. I don't think anyone is concerned about the Russians being cross. But there is a difference between that and having Russia believe NATO is directly attacking them.
    Are they really that stupid?
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,272
    Nigelb said:

    boulay said:

    Don’t cha just love BBC radio 4 comedy. Just tuned in as saw a new show and was treated by the host and Spanish comedian mocking Brits in hackneyed terms, the best was the Spanish chap ranting about us not being able to pronounce Paella and Mallorca as he pronounces at the same time as not speaking with a perfect English accent whilst using English words. We are a truly evil nation.

    Yay, now the Malawian comedian having a go, followed by an Aussie making the audience roar mocking King Charles. What an enormous pile of wank. Just turning off at the point that “white men” have been blamed for everything.

    Sounds like a mirror image of 1970s TV.
    That was shit, too.
    Roots? Holocaust? Columbo? Star Trek? (aired in the 70's in England) Colditz? Sapphire and Steel? The Six Million Dollar Man? The Generation Game? Space 1999? Anne of Green Gables? Play for Today? and more...

    There was also this thing with a box and a scarf, but it slips my mind.

    [EDIT: if you want proof of the injustice of the world, the 1972 Anne of Green Gables has been wiped and is now lost. Fuck.]
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,607
    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
    That's true, but this time last year would you have been ok with the thought that in a years time the question would be how or when Ukraine would liberate the territory that it hasn't liberated yet?

    Rather than whether Russia is going to be able to still push on to take even more land.

    The fact that Russia is being purely defensive and stretched at that is a good sign.

    Russia is depleting it's forces and has fewer and fewer stockpiled Cold War machines to add to the mix.

    Ukraine hasn't even got it's F16s yet. It's forces are strengthening not weakening.

    This war is currently ratcheting one way. Long may that continue.
    The F16s thing is really odd. I really don’t get why there’s reluctance on supplying them. First flown in 1974, just about the most prevalent fighter jet worldwide, it’s hardly some cutting edge new generation super-weapon.
    It looks incredibly like a NATO fighter raiding into Russian soil. The room for serious misunderstandings is multiplied scarily. And there is an argument about how useful they will be when both sides seem to have seriously effective anti aircraft tech.
    I don’t see why that’s anymore the case than MiGs and SUs raiding Ukrainian soil daily, when they’re not trying to spray jet fuel in American drones in the Black Sea or buzz Swedish jets in their airspace. And for that matter several NATO members themselves using former Soviet aircraft.

    It’s this weird asymmetric fear of provocation that is frankly baffling. Let Russia act like a complete c*nt, but pussyfoot around just in case we make them a bit cross.
    The US are providing hundreds of thousands of rounds of cluster bombs which are ripping Russian soldiers to pieces. We supplied Storm Shadow cruise missiles and anti tank weaponry which has proven deadly. I don't think anyone is concerned about the Russians being cross. But there is a difference between that and having Russia believe NATO is directly attacking them.
    Are they really that stupid?
    Oh f*** yes. And they have a leader who thinks he has very, very little to lose.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,399
    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
    That's true, but this time last year would you have been ok with the thought that in a years time the question would be how or when Ukraine would liberate the territory that it hasn't liberated yet?

    Rather than whether Russia is going to be able to still push on to take even more land.

    The fact that Russia is being purely defensive and stretched at that is a good sign.

    Russia is depleting it's forces and has fewer and fewer stockpiled Cold War machines to add to the mix.

    Ukraine hasn't even got it's F16s yet. It's forces are strengthening not weakening.

    This war is currently ratcheting one way. Long may that continue.
    The F16s thing is really odd. I really don’t get why there’s reluctance on supplying them. First flown in 1974, just about the most prevalent fighter jet worldwide, it’s hardly some cutting edge new generation super-weapon.
    It looks incredibly like a NATO fighter raiding into Russian soil. The room for serious misunderstandings is multiplied scarily. And there is an argument about how useful they will be when both sides seem to have seriously effective anti aircraft tech.
    I don’t see why that’s anymore the case than MiGs and SUs raiding Ukrainian soil daily, when they’re not trying to spray jet fuel in American drones in the Black Sea or buzz Swedish jets in their airspace. And for that matter several NATO members themselves using former Soviet aircraft.

    It’s this weird asymmetric fear of provocation that is frankly baffling. Let Russia act like a complete c*nt, but pussyfoot around just in case we make them a bit cross.
    The US are providing hundreds of thousands of rounds of cluster bombs which are ripping Russian soldiers to pieces. We supplied Storm Shadow cruise missiles and anti tank weaponry which has proven deadly. I don't think anyone is concerned about the Russians being cross. But there is a difference between that and having Russia believe NATO is directly attacking them.
    Are they really that stupid?
    Even if NATO countries did get directly involved in Ukraine, it's not obvious what Russia would gain by escalating outside that theatre.
  • Options
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    boulay said:

    Don’t cha just love BBC radio 4 comedy. Just tuned in as saw a new show and was treated by the host and Spanish comedian mocking Brits in hackneyed terms, the best was the Spanish chap ranting about us not being able to pronounce Paella and Mallorca as he pronounces at the same time as not speaking with a perfect English accent whilst using English words. We are a truly evil nation.

    Yay, now the Malawian comedian having a go, followed by an Aussie making the audience roar mocking King Charles. What an enormous pile of wank. Just turning off at the point that “white men” have been blamed for everything.

    Sounds like a mirror image of 1970s TV.
    That was shit, too.
    Roots? Holocaust? Columbo? Star Trek? (aired in the 70's in England) Colditz? Sapphire and Steel? The Six Million Dollar Man? The Generation Game? Space 1999? Anne of Green Gables? Play for Today? and more...

    There was also this thing with a box and a scarf, but it slips my mind.

    [EDIT: if you want proof of the injustice of the world, the 1972 Anne of Green Gables has been wiped and is now lost. Fuck.]
    So you're trying to confirm TV was shit with that list?
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,272
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Question: which country in north-west Europe (and indeed also northern Europe as a whole) has the lowest suicide rate?

    Iceland? Malta? Aland? The country with the strictest religious or legal constraints against suicide?
    There's a massive north-South Euclid divide with suicide rates
    "Euclid". Typo, or is there a meaning I'm missing?
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,272

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    boulay said:

    Don’t cha just love BBC radio 4 comedy. Just tuned in as saw a new show and was treated by the host and Spanish comedian mocking Brits in hackneyed terms, the best was the Spanish chap ranting about us not being able to pronounce Paella and Mallorca as he pronounces at the same time as not speaking with a perfect English accent whilst using English words. We are a truly evil nation.

    Yay, now the Malawian comedian having a go, followed by an Aussie making the audience roar mocking King Charles. What an enormous pile of wank. Just turning off at the point that “white men” have been blamed for everything.

    Sounds like a mirror image of 1970s TV.
    That was shit, too.
    Roots? Holocaust? Columbo? Star Trek? (aired in the 70's in England) Colditz? Sapphire and Steel? The Six Million Dollar Man? The Generation Game? Space 1999? Anne of Green Gables? Play for Today? and more...

    There was also this thing with a box and a scarf, but it slips my mind.

    [EDIT: if you want proof of the injustice of the world, the 1972 Anne of Green Gables has been wiped and is now lost. Fuck.]
    So you're trying to confirm TV was shit with that list?
    [facepalm]
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,082
    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    AlistairM said:

    Could be a critical moment for the Ukraine offensive. Get past this and there may well not be much stopping Ukraine reaching the Sea of Azov.

    Staromlynivka ‼️

    It seems that the battle for Staromlynivka has started. This is a very key point for the Russians and the Ukrainians. Please refer to previous tweets for more context.
    The Russians have understood it and they are calling on Shoigu to send reserves that he does not have... They cast the battle as decisive on the southern front.

    It is possible that some Ukrainian units have completely bypassed Zavitne Bazhannya. ZB is very vulnerable because surrounded by the Mokri river north and east with the main road leading to Staromlynivka. Ukrainian artillery is reported already in the suburbs.

    https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1692569512602693779?s=20

    Couple of stories today that appear linked.

    1. US intelligence thinks Ukraine will fail to reach Melitopol in this counteroffensive.
    https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-us-intelligence-thinks-ukraine-will-fail-to-reach-counteroffensives-key-goal/

    2. US confirms it will approve F-16 transfer when Ukrainian pilot training is complete.
    https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-t/

    Would seem that the US has concluded that if they want Ukraine to push Russia further back they will actually have to make the transfer of F-16 jets happen.
    It's entirely possible - indeed probable - that Ukraine will fail to cut the Russian forces in half and reach the coast.

    But that doesn't mean the stories are in any way connected. The F16 decision has been a long time coming, and would have happened whether Ukraine was being knocked back on all fronts towards Kiev, or was already besieging Melitopol.
    After 2-3 months of impasse and fairly brutal infantry actions by Ukraine with their armour out of play because of the minefields, there has been some evidence that things are finally starting to move in the last week. There are 2 scenarios, as I see it. The first is that having forced them to bludgeon their way through those minefields the Russians can now fall back and use those trenches and defensive positions to good effect. The second is that Russia has thrown its reserves into making a real fight of the minefields but now has little to cover any breakthroughs that occur.

    Which one is right? I am genuinely not sure. I obviously hope for the latter but this has been a seriously hard summer for Ukraine and Russia have proven to be far more resilient than we hoped.
    That's true, but this time last year would you have been ok with the thought that in a years time the question would be how or when Ukraine would liberate the territory that it hasn't liberated yet?

    Rather than whether Russia is going to be able to still push on to take even more land.

    The fact that Russia is being purely defensive and stretched at that is a good sign.

    Russia is depleting it's forces and has fewer and fewer stockpiled Cold War machines to add to the mix.

    Ukraine hasn't even got it's F16s yet. It's forces are strengthening not weakening.

    This war is currently ratcheting one way. Long may that continue.
    The F16s thing is really odd. I really don’t get why there’s reluctance on supplying them. First flown in 1974, just about the most prevalent fighter jet worldwide, it’s hardly some cutting edge new generation super-weapon.
    It looks incredibly like a NATO fighter raiding into Russian soil. The room for serious misunderstandings is multiplied scarily. And there is an argument about how useful they will be when both sides seem to have seriously effective anti aircraft tech.
    I don’t see why that’s anymore the case than MiGs and SUs raiding Ukrainian soil daily, when they’re not trying to spray jet fuel in American drones in the Black Sea or buzz Swedish jets in their airspace. And for that matter several NATO members themselves using former Soviet aircraft.

    It’s this weird asymmetric fear of provocation that is frankly baffling. Let Russia act like a complete c*nt, but pussyfoot around just in case we make them a bit cross.
    The US are providing hundreds of thousands of rounds of cluster bombs which are ripping Russian soldiers to pieces. We supplied Storm Shadow cruise missiles and anti tank weaponry which has proven deadly. I don't think anyone is concerned about the Russians being cross. But there is a difference between that and having Russia believe NATO is directly attacking them.
    Are they really that stupid?
    Oh f*** yes. And they have a leader who thinks he has very, very little to lose.
    Seriously, they’re not going to confuse an old f16 (which they know Ukraine has been supplied) with a NATO attack,
This discussion has been closed.