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LAB odds on to gain Rutherglen and the LDs Mid-Beds – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,151
edited August 2023 in General
imageLAB odds on to gain Rutherglen and the LDs Mid-Beds – politicalbetting.com

It is early days so far in the Rutherglen by-election but punters have already made their minds up – Labour is the very tight odds on favorite to take the seat from the SNP.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • When does the SNP become value (if it ever does)?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,720
    Today's Redfield Scottish poll has a 12% swing from SNP to Labour since 2019, which would see Labour easily overtake the SNP's 10% majority in Rutherglen in 2019

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1689306849835724801?s=20
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,720
    Labour were second in Mid Bedfordshire in 2019 not the LDs and on the Selby swing would have a good chance of taking it. So are unlikely to give the LDs a clear run there
  • Dan Snow Reviews Prime Ministers in Historical Movie Scenes (half hour video)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0TbAn6JfD0
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,502
    HYUFD said:

    Labour were second in Mid Bedfordshire in 2019 not the LDs and on the Selby swing would have a good chance of taking it. So are unlikely to give the LDs a clear run there

    My hunch is the LDs will be the main challengers in Mid Beds. A strong Labour campaign there is probably the only thing that could help the Tories to hold the seat on a low share.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    edited August 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Labour were second in Mid Bedfordshire in 2019 not the LDs and on the Selby swing would have a good chance of taking it. So are unlikely to give the LDs a clear run there

    We've seen this before in places like Tiverton. It doesn't mean the LDs won't successfully be viewed by locals as the best anti tory prospect nonetheless.

    In Mid Bedfordshire the gap between lab and ld is a bit larger still, so sure lab won't want to give a clear run and should not, but that may not matter.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,777
    edited August 2023
    Fresh Tory Party turmoil over London mayoral shambles
    Probe into London Conservatives reignites City Hall selection row

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/conservative-party-london-mayoral-selection-susan-hall-uxbridge-b1099551.html
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66447938
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,508
    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,502

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    Interesting given the relative youth of the present and previous prime ministers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,943
    This would seem a waste of resources in the middle of a war.

    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824
    Russian officer "Colonel Shuvalov" described on Telegram how it is encouraged to fabricate reports about destroyed Ukrainian equipment by filming strikes on different days using various weapons and equipment. This is done to please the upper leadership since everyone benefits from positive reports and inflated numbers. It's a long post but worth reading (source: https://t.me/shouvalov/33)

    Far from the first report of this practice.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,304

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,577

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    And to Greens. More disenchantment with Labour I think.

    The right doesn't have much to say for young people here, but does appeal in other parts of the world.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,577

    When does the SNP become value (if it ever does)?

    Nats are very sticky despite the total car crash of the SNP this last year or two. I am on at longer odds.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,577
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,040

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
  • Foxy said:
    They are partly blaming the end of the help to buy scheme. Radical suggestion - if house builders built houses that first time buyers could afford to buy, there wouldn't be the need for help to buy.

    There is a real shortage of starter homes. But they always build supposedly large "executive" homes (the ones where the rooms are tiny anyway because fuck you). Their profit margin is the only priority, not what the community needs.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,012
    edited August 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    Narratives and histories are something we place on events in the past/there to allow people in the present/here to make sense of it. They change as people in the present change. The queer reading that excited comment is an example of this. They are only useful in that context and may bear absolutely no resemblance to what the people at the time/place thought.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,754
    Labour people I spoke to at the weekend seemed extremely confident about Rutherglen.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,340
    edited August 2023
    Incidentally, to pick up on Lee Anderson in the last thread, one thing that might shake things up in Ashfield is that Jason Zadrozny is having legal problems again.

    In 2019 he came second, ahead of Labour. If these charges go anywhere - and it should be remembered on a previous occasion criminal charges against him were dropped when it turned out they had been invented by his political opponents - where those votes go might be of crucial importance.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,577

    Foxy said:
    They are partly blaming the end of the help to buy scheme. Radical suggestion - if house builders built houses that first time buyers could afford to buy, there wouldn't be the need for help to buy.

    There is a real shortage of starter homes. But they always build supposedly large "executive" homes (the ones where the rooms are tiny anyway because fuck you). Their profit margin is the only priority, not what the community needs.
    Well, they are businesses so build what sells. If it ain't selling and they ain't making money then they won't build.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,012
    Nigelb said:

    This would seem a waste of resources in the middle of a war.

    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824
    Russian officer "Colonel Shuvalov" described on Telegram how it is encouraged to fabricate reports about destroyed Ukrainian equipment by filming strikes on different days using various weapons and equipment. This is done to please the upper leadership since everyone benefits from positive reports and inflated numbers. It's a long post but worth reading (source: https://t.me/shouvalov/33)

    Far from the first report of this practice.

    This is known as the "principal/agent problem": generals issue orders but soldiers carry them out, and if they can make the general happy thru faked reports, they will. This is why bodycount reports are so unreliable.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,943
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    This would seem a waste of resources in the middle of a war.

    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824
    Russian officer "Colonel Shuvalov" described on Telegram how it is encouraged to fabricate reports about destroyed Ukrainian equipment by filming strikes on different days using various weapons and equipment. This is done to please the upper leadership since everyone benefits from positive reports and inflated numbers. It's a long post but worth reading (source: https://t.me/shouvalov/33)

    Far from the first report of this practice.

    This is known as the "principal/agent problem": generals issue orders but soldiers carry them out, and if they can make the general happy thru faked reports, they will. This is why bodycount reports are so unreliable.
    Of course.
    Ukraine has much the same motivations, but a different set of incentives.

  • Foxy said:
    They are partly blaming the end of the help to buy scheme. Radical suggestion - if house builders built houses that first time buyers could afford to buy, there wouldn't be the need for help to buy.

    There is a real shortage of starter homes. But they always build supposedly large "executive" homes (the ones where the rooms are tiny anyway because fuck you). Their profit margin is the only priority, not what the community needs.
    A person on the average wage hasn't been able to afford to buy the average priced home for about the last 20 years. We're heading into a big fall in house prices over the next few years and sellers are going to have to face some harsh facts- their house isn't worth what Rightmove are telling them it is, and everyday they don't sell means it gets harder to sell and it's losing value. Great for cash buyers like me, really grim news for people who have to sell due to financial reasons or they have to move for a job/divorce and similar.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,848
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    This would seem a waste of resources in the middle of a war.

    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824
    Russian officer "Colonel Shuvalov" described on Telegram how it is encouraged to fabricate reports about destroyed Ukrainian equipment by filming strikes on different days using various weapons and equipment. This is done to please the upper leadership since everyone benefits from positive reports and inflated numbers. It's a long post but worth reading (source: https://t.me/shouvalov/33)

    Far from the first report of this practice.

    This is known as the "principal/agent problem": generals issue orders but soldiers carry them out, and if they can make the general happy thru faked reports, they will. This is why bodycount reports are so unreliable.
    Sacrilege. Every account of the war on Twitter is 100% reliable and accurate.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,806

    Fresh Tory Party turmoil over London mayoral shambles
    Probe into London Conservatives reignites City Hall selection row

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/conservative-party-london-mayoral-selection-susan-hall-uxbridge-b1099551.html
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66447938

    ULQC (Ultra low quality candidate) proving no more popular than ULEZ with the Tory faithful.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,848
    I know it's just the BBC being the BBC and it is of course a tragedy but to feature the early death of a (BBC) sitcom writer on your news front page seems a tad excessive.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    TOPPING said:

    I know it's just the BBC being the BBC and it is of course a tragedy but to feature the early death of a (BBC) sitcom writer on your news front page seems a tad excessive.

    Media self obsesses. Film at 11.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    This would seem a waste of resources in the middle of a war.

    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824
    Russian officer "Colonel Shuvalov" described on Telegram how it is encouraged to fabricate reports about destroyed Ukrainian equipment by filming strikes on different days using various weapons and equipment. This is done to please the upper leadership since everyone benefits from positive reports and inflated numbers. It's a long post but worth reading (source: https://t.me/shouvalov/33)

    Far from the first report of this practice.

    This is known as the "principal/agent problem": generals issue orders but soldiers carry them out, and if they can make the general happy thru faked reports, they will. This is why bodycount reports are so unreliable.
    See “gun decking”
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    Nigelb said:

    This would seem a waste of resources in the middle of a war.

    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824
    Russian officer "Colonel Shuvalov" described on Telegram how it is encouraged to fabricate reports about destroyed Ukrainian equipment by filming strikes on different days using various weapons and equipment. This is done to please the upper leadership since everyone benefits from positive reports and inflated numbers. It's a long post but worth reading (source: https://t.me/shouvalov/33)

    Far from the first report of this practice.

    #RedStormRising

    In the book, Soviet military leadership prepares for war by (re)asserting discipline in the army. This includes shooting some fairly senior officers for falsifying reports.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,281
    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    This would seem a waste of resources in the middle of a war.

    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824
    Russian officer "Colonel Shuvalov" described on Telegram how it is encouraged to fabricate reports about destroyed Ukrainian equipment by filming strikes on different days using various weapons and equipment. This is done to please the upper leadership since everyone benefits from positive reports and inflated numbers. It's a long post but worth reading (source: https://t.me/shouvalov/33)

    Far from the first report of this practice.

    This is known as the "principal/agent problem": generals issue orders but soldiers carry them out, and if they can make the general happy thru faked reports, they will. This is why bodycount reports are so unreliable.
    Of course.
    Ukraine has much the same motivations, but a different set of incentives.
    I believe this is one reason why NATO doctrine devolves decision-making to the lowest level possible, so that decisions are most likely to be made by people with the most accurate battlefield information.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,975

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    Well, there are also fewer ACT and NZ First supporters among the young, and more for the Greens and Te Pati Māori.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,304
    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,734

    Foxy said:
    They are partly blaming the end of the help to buy scheme. Radical suggestion - if house builders built houses that first time buyers could afford to buy, there wouldn't be the need for help to buy.

    There is a real shortage of starter homes. But they always build supposedly large "executive" homes (the ones where the rooms are tiny anyway because fuck you). Their profit margin is the only priority, not what the community needs.
    A person on the average wage hasn't been able to afford to buy the average priced home for about the last 20 years. We're heading into a big fall in house prices over the next few years and sellers are going to have to face some harsh facts- their house isn't worth what Rightmove are telling them it is, and everyday they don't sell means it gets harder to sell and it's losing value. Great for cash buyers like me, really grim news for people who have to sell due to financial reasons or they have to move for a job/divorce and similar.
    But those moving for job reasons will be moving to houses which are also cheaper. And they will pay less tax in the whole palaver.
    The only people for whom falling house prices are bad news are those who, by accident or design, have ended up with houses as an investment vehicle rather than somewhere to live.
  • Fresh Tory Party turmoil over London mayoral shambles
    Probe into London Conservatives reignites City Hall selection row

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/conservative-party-london-mayoral-selection-susan-hall-uxbridge-b1099551.html
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66447938

    ULQC (Ultra low quality candidate) proving no more popular than ULEZ with the Tory faithful.
    Is Susan Hall that bad a candidate? She is a London Assembly Member since 2017 and was a local councillor before that. She sounds OK in the odd interview clip I've seen. My question really is whether it is the Tory faithful who are up in arms, or the Tory hierarchy who were trying to fix the nomination for someone else. Maybe Rishi has a spare peerage up his sleeve he can offer Susan Hall to stand down.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,753
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Royale, the first Moghal emperor was a competent man called Babur. His son Humayun was weak and ineffective. His grandson Akbar the Great was the best of them.

    Not too dissimilar to Edwards I-III. Patterns appear all over the place, but they only matter if there's an underlying meaning.

    Next time around might be different, it depends how much the Conservatives try to eat their own face and whether Labour copes with an inheritance that isn't golden (as 1997 was).
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,304
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    This would seem a waste of resources in the middle of a war.

    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824
    Russian officer "Colonel Shuvalov" described on Telegram how it is encouraged to fabricate reports about destroyed Ukrainian equipment by filming strikes on different days using various weapons and equipment. This is done to please the upper leadership since everyone benefits from positive reports and inflated numbers. It's a long post but worth reading (source: https://t.me/shouvalov/33)

    Far from the first report of this practice.

    This is known as the "principal/agent problem": generals issue orders but soldiers carry them out, and if they can make the general happy thru faked reports, they will. This is why bodycount reports are so unreliable.
    People overreport what they think their superiors want to hear.

    They will at the very least be left alone, and maybe even get a pat on the back, whereas telling uncomfortable truths, sadly, normally leads to the messenger being shot.

    Many organisations work like this: the politics and culture comes from the top and only there can it be addressed.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,304
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    This would seem a waste of resources in the middle of a war.

    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824
    Russian officer "Colonel Shuvalov" described on Telegram how it is encouraged to fabricate reports about destroyed Ukrainian equipment by filming strikes on different days using various weapons and equipment. This is done to please the upper leadership since everyone benefits from positive reports and inflated numbers. It's a long post but worth reading (source: https://t.me/shouvalov/33)

    Far from the first report of this practice.

    This is known as the "principal/agent problem": generals issue orders but soldiers carry them out, and if they can make the general happy thru faked reports, they will. This is why bodycount reports are so unreliable.
    Inflated American bodycount reports in Vietnam were legendary.

    In a war where you're really winning the facts speak for themselves.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,281

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    There's a mathematical model that's been created based on that "rule" which has been featured in academic papers I believe.

    That said, my my most likely expected scenario is for the Tories to be out of office for at least two Parliamentary terms, because I expect that they will make poor choices when first in opposition. But clearly this is a prediction that is contingent on those choices, rather than being inevitable.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,304
    Foxy said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    And to Greens. More disenchantment with Labour I think.

    The right doesn't have much to say for young people here, but does appeal in other parts of the world.
    Maybe the NZ youth weren't quite as keen on Jacinda's super-Wokery as we'd been led to believe?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,281
    Cookie said:

    Foxy said:
    They are partly blaming the end of the help to buy scheme. Radical suggestion - if house builders built houses that first time buyers could afford to buy, there wouldn't be the need for help to buy.

    There is a real shortage of starter homes. But they always build supposedly large "executive" homes (the ones where the rooms are tiny anyway because fuck you). Their profit margin is the only priority, not what the community needs.
    A person on the average wage hasn't been able to afford to buy the average priced home for about the last 20 years. We're heading into a big fall in house prices over the next few years and sellers are going to have to face some harsh facts- their house isn't worth what Rightmove are telling them it is, and everyday they don't sell means it gets harder to sell and it's losing value. Great for cash buyers like me, really grim news for people who have to sell due to financial reasons or they have to move for a job/divorce and similar.
    But those moving for job reasons ywill be moving to houses which are also cheaper. And they will pay less tax in the whole palaver.
    The only people for whom falling house prices are bad news are those who, by accident or design, have ended up with houses as an investment vehicle rather than somewhere to live.
    If you are unlucky to have bought at the top of the market then you may find yourself in negative equity and in a bit of a pickle if you need to sell due to a job move/divorce, etc.

    That's not to say that policy should avoid falling house prices to protect this specific small group of people, but I do think there will be some losers from falling house prices that it is possible to have some sympathy for.
  • viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    This would seem a waste of resources in the middle of a war.

    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824
    Russian officer "Colonel Shuvalov" described on Telegram how it is encouraged to fabricate reports about destroyed Ukrainian equipment by filming strikes on different days using various weapons and equipment. This is done to please the upper leadership since everyone benefits from positive reports and inflated numbers. It's a long post but worth reading (source: https://t.me/shouvalov/33)

    Far from the first report of this practice.

    This is known as the "principal/agent problem": generals issue orders but soldiers carry them out, and if they can make the general happy thru faked reports, they will. This is why bodycount reports are so unreliable.
    People overreport what they think their superiors want to hear.

    They will at the very least be left alone, and maybe even get a pat on the back, whereas telling uncomfortable truths, sadly, normally leads to the messenger being shot.

    Many organisations work like this: the politics and culture comes from the top and only there can it be addressed.
    The Conservative Party under William Hague was said to have been harmed by over-enthusiastic reports being fed back upstream from local parties about voters' willingness to engage with his Save the Pound campaign.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,304

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    There's a mathematical model that's been created based on that "rule" which has been featured in academic papers I believe.

    That said, my my most likely expected scenario is for the Tories to be out of office for at least two Parliamentary terms, because I expect that they will make poor choices when first in opposition. But clearly this is a prediction that is contingent on those choices, rather than being inevitable.
    It wasn't the rule between the wars. It wasn't the rule after the wars. And it certainly wasn't the rule in the 1970s.

    Indeed, you could say, in economically and politically turbulent times that turbulence will extend to domestic politics.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,304
    TOPPING said:

    I know it's just the BBC being the BBC and it is of course a tragedy but to feature the early death of a (BBC) sitcom writer on your news front page seems a tad excessive.

    BBC News website seems to get its stories either from itself or from the social media feeds of its staff.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,281

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    There's a mathematical model that's been created based on that "rule" which has been featured in academic papers I believe.

    That said, my my most likely expected scenario is for the Tories to be out of office for at least two Parliamentary terms, because I expect that they will make poor choices when first in opposition. But clearly this is a prediction that is contingent on those choices, rather than being inevitable.
    It wasn't the rule between the wars. It wasn't the rule after the wars. And it certainly wasn't the rule in the 1970s.

    Indeed, you could say, in economically and politically turbulent times that turbulence will extend to domestic politics.
    Well, yes, I think that's a rule one might create on the basis of the historical record of economic turbulence.

    I think that pattern-matching by humans is a very useful trait, though we have a tendency to overfit our mental models, which is why we've ended up with so many superstitions.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,648
    TOPPING said:

    I know it's just the BBC being the BBC and it is of course a tragedy but to feature the early death of a (BBC) sitcom writer on your news front page seems a tad excessive.

    OTOH I thought the Metro's headline "BBC Comic Is Held For Historic Offences" was a bit odd since the person involved left the BBC in 1996 according to Wikipedia.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,327

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    There's a mathematical model that's been created based on that "rule" which has been featured in academic papers I believe.

    That said, my my most likely expected scenario is for the Tories to be out of office for at least two Parliamentary terms, because I expect that they will make poor choices when first in opposition. But clearly this is a prediction that is contingent on those choices, rather than being inevitable.
    It wasn't the rule between the wars. It wasn't the rule after the wars. And it certainly wasn't the rule in the 1970s.

    Indeed, you could say, in economically and politically turbulent times that turbulence will extend to domestic politics.
    Well, yes, I think that's a rule one might create on the basis of the historical record of economic turbulence.

    I think that pattern-matching by humans is a very useful trait, though we have a tendency to overfit our mental models, which is why we've ended up with so many superstitions.
    Pattern matching has its uses - you can use it to make predictions and sometimes it exposes the reasons for the pattern. Weather folklore is full of them - “Red sky at night, shepherds delight” is a classic and holds true quite often for the U.K. which typically has westerly dominated weather systems. Similarly “Rain before seven, dry by eleven” reflects weather fronts moving quite quickly through.

    But the recent political governing durations is not likely to be one where there is an underlying mechanism. Each election is so very different from the ones before.
  • .

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    I just think the current Tory party is unfit for purpose and needs to be out of government. The lack of talent it has (a problem it shares with Labour) and its likely descent into a bit of post election infighting will probably mean at least two terms in opposition. So not really a rule, just a logical unfolding of events!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,304

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    There's a mathematical model that's been created based on that "rule" which has been featured in academic papers I believe.

    That said, my my most likely expected scenario is for the Tories to be out of office for at least two Parliamentary terms, because I expect that they will make poor choices when first in opposition. But clearly this is a prediction that is contingent on those choices, rather than being inevitable.
    It wasn't the rule between the wars. It wasn't the rule after the wars. And it certainly wasn't the rule in the 1970s.

    Indeed, you could say, in economically and politically turbulent times that turbulence will extend to domestic politics.
    Well, yes, I think that's a rule one might create on the basis of the historical record of economic turbulence.

    I think that pattern-matching by humans is a very useful trait, though we have a tendency to overfit our mental models, which is why we've ended up with so many superstitions.
    I don't think there's any patterns that can be applied to it.

    I'm simply arguing for different perspectives and thus an open mind.
  • rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    Its not a rule, but its most probable.

    People are pissed off with the Tories now. Unless or until they become more pissed off with Labour than the Tories, then they're likely to re-elect Labour.

    Predictions are normally about odds and what is more likely. Currently Labour being in power for a decade is much more likely than not, but it certainly is not guaranteed.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,760
    One thing to watch about Rutherglen is that Yousless has been campaigning there a lot and has very much associated his face with the campaign. This may be because he is living up to his name, of course, but a First Minister who spends quite so much time on the ground campaigning is unusual. Presumably he thinks they have a chance. It's not as if his in box is not overflowing with problems.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    TOPPING said:

    I know it's just the BBC being the BBC and it is of course a tragedy but to feature the early death of a (BBC) sitcom writer on your news front page seems a tad excessive.

    And 20 stories down the page, Robbie Robertson, leader of The Band, dies aged 80. I know which one I have heard of.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,049

    .

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    I just think the current Tory party is unfit for purpose and needs to be out of government. The lack of talent it has (a problem it shares with Labour) and its likely descent into a bit of post election infighting will probably mean at least two terms in opposition. So not really a rule, just a logical unfolding of events!
    I think it's crying out for 8-10 years in opposition.
  • Foxy said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    And to Greens. More disenchantment with Labour I think.

    The right doesn't have much to say for young people here, but does appeal in other parts of the world.
    Maybe the NZ youth weren't quite as keen on Jacinda's super-Wokery as we'd been led to believe?
    Though the LabGrn block is pretty similar across the age range. It's just that older voters are more likely to be red and younger ones green. Same for the right block (Nat/ACT/NZ1); younger voters are more mainstream right and older ones more populist right.

    Which could point to Jacinda not being woke enough for the young.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,304

    .

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    I just think the current Tory party is unfit for purpose and needs to be out of government. The lack of talent it has (a problem it shares with Labour) and its likely descent into a bit of post election infighting will probably mean at least two terms in opposition. So not really a rule, just a logical unfolding of events!
    That "logical unfolding of events", though, rests on how you feel about the Tories now and assumptions you are making about their behaviour in opposition.

    You may be discounting other factors and events that you are currently blind to (along with everyone else) and be a poor forecaster of how you yourself may feel about that in future.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    MattW said:

    Morning all.

    I do like "Lee Anderthal".

    Also, spotted this morning. A bit close for comfort.



    I don't. Grossly speciesist and unfair to Homo neandertalensis. As someone who supposedly has some Neanderthal genes, I protest very strongly.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,648

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    There's a mathematical model that's been created based on that "rule" which has been featured in academic papers I believe.

    That said, my my most likely expected scenario is for the Tories to be out of office for at least two Parliamentary terms, because I expect that they will make poor choices when first in opposition. But clearly this is a prediction that is contingent on those choices, rather than being inevitable.
    It wasn't the rule between the wars. It wasn't the rule after the wars. And it certainly wasn't the rule in the 1970s.

    Indeed, you could say, in economically and politically turbulent times that turbulence will extend to domestic politics.
    As I became aware of politics in the early 70s I assumed that every election brought a change of government. And to be fair, absent the Falklands that might have continued into the 80s with Labour scraping a victory in 1983 and the Tories a landslide in 1987(ish).

    The one rule that does hold true and immutable* of course is that the Tories and Labour will be forever swapping power between them.

    (*until it doesn't)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,577

    Foxy said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    And to Greens. More disenchantment with Labour I think.

    The right doesn't have much to say for young people here, but does appeal in other parts of the world.
    Maybe the NZ youth weren't quite as keen on Jacinda's super-Wokery as we'd been led to believe?
    It doesn't seem to be that, hence the shift to the Greens and Maori party.

    More rising cost of living, declining public hospitals, rising social inequality and crime according to my NZ relatives. It is always the incumbent that gets blamed for these things, and NZ Labour has been in power for 2 terms.
  • .

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    I just think the current Tory party is unfit for purpose and needs to be out of government. The lack of talent it has (a problem it shares with Labour) and its likely descent into a bit of post election infighting will probably mean at least two terms in opposition. So not really a rule, just a logical unfolding of events!
    That "logical unfolding of events", though, rests on how you feel about the Tories now and assumptions you are making about their behaviour in opposition.

    You may be discounting other factors and events that you are currently blind to (along with everyone else) and be a poor forecaster of how you yourself may feel about that in future.
    Its not just how you feel about the Tories now, its how the country feels about the Tories now.

    Right now the country is pissed off with the Tories.

    That's not going to magically vanish the day they leave Downing Street.

    Over time the electorate stops being angry with the old government/stops associating the opposition with the old government, and becomes angry with the new one, but that takes time normally.

    If Labour somehow in five years piss the electorate off more than they're pissed off with the Tories then the Tories could win again, but that is less probable than the alternative currently.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    There's a mathematical model that's been created based on that "rule" which has been featured in academic papers I believe.

    That said, my my most likely expected scenario is for the Tories to be out of office for at least two Parliamentary terms, because I expect that they will make poor choices when first in opposition. But clearly this is a prediction that is contingent on those choices, rather than being inevitable.
    It wasn't the rule between the wars. It wasn't the rule after the wars. And it certainly wasn't the rule in the 1970s.

    Indeed, you could say, in economically and politically turbulent times that turbulence will extend to domestic politics.
    As I became aware of politics in the early 70s I assumed that every election brought a change of government. And to be fair, absent the Falklands that might have continued into the 80s with Labour scraping a victory in 1983 and the Tories a landslide in 1987(ish).

    The one rule that does hold true and immutable* of course is that the Tories and Labour will be forever swapping power between them.

    (*until it doesn't)
    It wasn't the Falklands that won the 1983 election for the Tories. It was the SDP.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,520
    HYUFD said:

    Labour were second in Mid Bedfordshire in 2019 not the LDs and on the Selby swing would have a good chance of taking it. So are unlikely to give the LDs a clear run there

    Yes, I continue to get emails to help the mid-Beds Labour campaign in full swing, even though it's some way away from me. That opinion poll showing Labour ahead was pretty important and is helping win the tactical voting section of the anti-Con public, and the betting odds look wrong. I'm actually not especially keen to see the by-election happen, since there will be a pitched battle between Lab and LD, and actually any result (Con hold, Lab win, LD win) will damage the pattern of tactical voting across the country. My guess (though it's all second-hand info) is that all three outcomes have a roughly similarly probability.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,304
    DavidL said:

    One thing to watch about Rutherglen is that Yousless has been campaigning there a lot and has very much associated his face with the campaign. This may be because he is living up to his name, of course, but a First Minister who spends quite so much time on the ground campaigning is unusual. Presumably he thinks they have a chance. It's not as if his in box is not overflowing with problems.

    Campaigning is probably a nice distraction from problems you can't do anything to actually fix...
  • I think the LibDems would probably have won Mid-Beds if the election had been held on the same day as the ones in Selby, Somerton and Uxbridge. A standalone, though, is going to be far tougher. The Tories look the value bet with a split opposition allowing them to get through the middle.
  • rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    There's a mathematical model that's been created based on that "rule" which has been featured in academic papers I believe.

    That said, my my most likely expected scenario is for the Tories to be out of office for at least two Parliamentary terms, because I expect that they will make poor choices when first in opposition. But clearly this is a prediction that is contingent on those choices, rather than being inevitable.
    It wasn't the rule between the wars. It wasn't the rule after the wars. And it certainly wasn't the rule in the 1970s.

    Indeed, you could say, in economically and politically turbulent times that turbulence will extend to domestic politics.
    As I became aware of politics in the early 70s I assumed that every election brought a change of government. And to be fair, absent the Falklands that might have continued into the 80s with Labour scraping a victory in 1983 and the Tories a landslide in 1987(ish).

    The one rule that does hold true and immutable* of course is that the Tories and Labour will be forever swapping power between them.

    (*until it doesn't)
    There can be a causative reason why short governments follow short ones, and long ones follow long ones too though.

    If a government has been in power a long time then any resentment against it builds up more and takes longer to dissipate. And the Government can more credibly blame their predecessor for problems and say things like "they had 13/18 years to fix it" etc . . . which then gets turned against them a decade down the line when they're the ones who've now had a long time in power.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,648

    Foxy said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    And to Greens. More disenchantment with Labour I think.

    The right doesn't have much to say for young people here, but does appeal in other parts of the world.
    Maybe the NZ youth weren't quite as keen on Jacinda's super-Wokery as we'd been led to believe?
    Though the LabGrn block is pretty similar across the age range. It's just that older voters are more likely to be red and younger ones green. Same for the right block (Nat/ACT/NZ1); younger voters are more mainstream right and older ones more populist right.

    Which could point to Jacinda not being woke enough for the young.
    I don't know NZ politics at all well, am I right in thinking National, ACT and NZ First are the parties of the Right?

    If so, the total supporting the right doesn't really vary much across the ages: 18-34 = 52.6%; 35-54 = 49.2%; 55+ = 52.3%

    Still unusual though.
  • Peck said:

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    There's a mathematical model that's been created based on that "rule" which has been featured in academic papers I believe.

    That said, my my most likely expected scenario is for the Tories to be out of office for at least two Parliamentary terms, because I expect that they will make poor choices when first in opposition. But clearly this is a prediction that is contingent on those choices, rather than being inevitable.
    It wasn't the rule between the wars. It wasn't the rule after the wars. And it certainly wasn't the rule in the 1970s.

    Indeed, you could say, in economically and politically turbulent times that turbulence will extend to domestic politics.
    As I became aware of politics in the early 70s I assumed that every election brought a change of government. And to be fair, absent the Falklands that might have continued into the 80s with Labour scraping a victory in 1983 and the Tories a landslide in 1987(ish).

    The one rule that does hold true and immutable* of course is that the Tories and Labour will be forever swapping power between them.

    (*until it doesn't)
    It wasn't the Falklands that won the 1983 election for the Tories. It was the SDP.
    Except for the fact that the polls show that SDP voters preferred a Thatcher led Tory government to a Foot led Labour government.

    So if it wasn't for the SDP then Thatcher's landslide could have been even bigger had there been a forced choice.

    Other than that, good point.
  • .

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    I just think the current Tory party is unfit for purpose and needs to be out of government. The lack of talent it has (a problem it shares with Labour) and its likely descent into a bit of post election infighting will probably mean at least two terms in opposition. So not really a rule, just a logical unfolding of events!
    That "logical unfolding of events", though, rests on how you feel about the Tories now and assumptions you are making about their behaviour in opposition.

    You may be discounting other factors and events that you are currently blind to (along with everyone else) and be a poor forecaster of how you yourself may feel about that in future.
    We're all subject to that to a greater or lesser extent.

    And yes, a Starmer government is likely to disappoint. It will be touch and go how far his government can point to "see, it was worth it" improvements by 2028/9.

    But the other question is whether the Conservatives can be clear-headed enough to dump the nutters after a 2024/5 defeat. (Where's the nutter threshold, anyway? If you get rid of all the nutters, what's left?) The record of recent history says no- since members elected party leaders in the big two, the response to defeat has been to double down on comfort zoning (Foot, Hague and IDS, EdM and Corbyn). And whilst there are voices trying to describe youth-friendly right (mainly Build More Bloody Houses), they're not at the centre of the conversation.

    So the short term prognosis is that Conservatives will win again when they really want to win again. Other recent data points: Blair, Cameron, Starmer. That process might be quick, but it will be a surprise if it is.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    And to Greens. More disenchantment with Labour I think.

    The right doesn't have much to say for young people here, but does appeal in other parts of the world.
    Maybe the NZ youth weren't quite as keen on Jacinda's super-Wokery as we'd been led to believe?
    It doesn't seem to be that, hence the shift to the Greens and Maori party.

    More rising cost of living, declining public hospitals, rising social inequality and crime according to my NZ relatives. It is always the incumbent that gets blamed for these things, and NZ Labour has been in power for 2 terms.

    Yep - my brother's Kiwi family were over recently. It's tough over there currently. Being a small market a long way from anywhere else during a time of geopolitical uncertainty and failing supply chains is not great. The isolated geography that helped during covid is now a significant hindrance. A lot of younger people have moved to Oz. My niece is one of them.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,648
    edited August 2023
    Peck said:

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    There's a mathematical model that's been created based on that "rule" which has been featured in academic papers I believe.

    That said, my my most likely expected scenario is for the Tories to be out of office for at least two Parliamentary terms, because I expect that they will make poor choices when first in opposition. But clearly this is a prediction that is contingent on those choices, rather than being inevitable.
    It wasn't the rule between the wars. It wasn't the rule after the wars. And it certainly wasn't the rule in the 1970s.

    Indeed, you could say, in economically and politically turbulent times that turbulence will extend to domestic politics.
    As I became aware of politics in the early 70s I assumed that every election brought a change of government. And to be fair, absent the Falklands that might have continued into the 80s with Labour scraping a victory in 1983 and the Tories a landslide in 1987(ish).

    The one rule that does hold true and immutable* of course is that the Tories and Labour will be forever swapping power between them.

    (*until it doesn't)
    It wasn't the Falklands that won the 1983 election for the Tories. It was the SDP.
    I don't think so. Whatever could have happened in the spring of 1982 to boost the Tory vote by 20%?

    image
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,074

    .

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    I just think the current Tory party is unfit for purpose and needs to be out of government. The lack of talent it has (a problem it shares with Labour) and its likely descent into a bit of post election infighting will probably mean at least two terms in opposition. So not really a rule, just a logical unfolding of events!
    That "logical unfolding of events", though, rests on how you feel about the Tories now and assumptions you are making about their behaviour in opposition.

    You may be discounting other factors and events that you are currently blind to (along with everyone else) and be a poor forecaster of how you yourself may feel about that in future.
    Its not just how you feel about the Tories now, its how the country feels about the Tories now.

    Right now the country is pissed off with the Tories.

    That's not going to magically vanish the day they leave Downing Street.

    Over time the electorate stops being angry with the old government/stops associating the opposition with the old government, and becomes angry with the new one, but that takes time normally.

    If Labour somehow in five years piss the electorate off more than they're pissed off with the Tories then the Tories could win again, but that is less probable than the alternative currently.
    Agreed.

    And this isn't helped as Tory members are more likely to choose someone from the illiberal right of the party if they lose badly with Sunak/Hunt in charge. The political direction they take means they are less likely to be given the benefit of the doubt by the public.

    Of course governments lose popularity so it's quite possible Labour screw things up sufficiently to lose power after 5 years.

    There's a balance to be had of course - reforms that benefit the country long-term will lose you voters in the short-term. I'd rather Labour make serious improvements in 5 years than offer managed decline with odd bits of populist policy over 10.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,327
    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Morning all.

    I do like "Lee Anderthal".

    Also, spotted this morning. A bit close for comfort.



    I don't. Grossly speciesist and unfair to Homo neandertalensis. As someone who supposedly has some Neanderthal genes, I protest very strongly.
    Ginger? Not convinced by that theory. However homo neanderthalensis are unfairly maligned in the popular press and imagination,
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,960

    HYUFD said:

    Labour were second in Mid Bedfordshire in 2019 not the LDs and on the Selby swing would have a good chance of taking it. So are unlikely to give the LDs a clear run there

    Yes, I continue to get emails to help the mid-Beds Labour campaign in full swing, even though it's some way away from me. That opinion poll showing Labour ahead was pretty important and is helping win the tactical voting section of the anti-Con public, and the betting odds look wrong. I'm actually not especially keen to see the by-election happen, since there will be a pitched battle between Lab and LD, and actually any result (Con hold, Lab win, LD win) will damage the pattern of tactical voting across the country. My guess (though it's all second-hand info) is that all three outcomes have a roughly similarly probability.
    The optimum result for anti-Tories would probably be a narrow Labour victory with the Lib Dems coming second and Tories third. It would prevent LDs getting carried away in the GE and targeting seats they can’t win (even though somewhere like Mid Beds is eminently winnable in a by-election), but would show people in the SE the way in seats where they are second, it would be a boost to Starmer, and it would be an utter humiliation to the Tories which would hopefully get them fighting each other in sacks.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,760
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    One thing to watch about Rutherglen is that Yousless has been campaigning there a lot and has very much associated his face with the campaign. This may be because he is living up to his name, of course, but a First Minister who spends quite so much time on the ground campaigning is unusual. Presumably he thinks they have a chance. It's not as if his in box is not overflowing with problems.

    Campaigning is probably a nice distraction from problems you can't do anything to actually fix...
    True, but here he is again along with Stephen Flynn: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/snp-deal-with-greens-gives-party-certainty-says-stephen-flynn/ar-AA1f1tPu?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=9e138e0711e347d29c395f239e31af50&ei=8

    The interview is interesting in that he is focusing on Sir Kid Starver's policies being basically the same as the Tories. The iron fiscal discipline imposed by Labour may not be doing them much harm in England but in Scotland there is a fantasist choice.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,702
    Before our NZ emigré poster opines definitively on the matter, it seems that China looms large in the NZ election.

    Reuters:
    For the first time in decades, foreign and defence policy are in the electoral spotlight in New Zealand, as opinion surveys show public concern about the security environment and the major parties wrestle with how to respond to an assertive China.

    The first part of the country’s defence review, released last week, said that New Zealand's military capabilities had fallen behind and that its geographical isolation was no longer a security guarantee.

    With a general election on Oct. 14, there is no clear path on how the country should respond - a quandary that experts say has voters closely considering external issues, uncommon in New Zealand politics since the 1980s.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/new-zealand-defence-security-become-election-issues-amid-chinas-pacific-push-2023-08-10/

    Kiwis are of course Chinese gooseberries
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Morning all.

    I do like "Lee Anderthal".

    Also, spotted this morning. A bit close for comfort.



    I don't. Grossly speciesist and unfair to Homo neandertalensis. As someone who supposedly has some Neanderthal genes, I protest very strongly.
    Ginger? Not convinced by that theory. However homo neanderthalensis are unfairly maligned in the popular press and imagination,
    Quite, but as we are all supposed to have some cross-breeding genes, I thought I was covered either way?

    Agree entirely about maligning. Seriously competent folk who could live in periglacial conditions.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,520

    HYUFD said:

    Labour were second in Mid Bedfordshire in 2019 not the LDs and on the Selby swing would have a good chance of taking it. So are unlikely to give the LDs a clear run there

    Yes, I continue to get emails to help the mid-Beds Labour campaign in full swing, even though it's some way away from me. That opinion poll showing Labour ahead was pretty important and is helping win the tactical voting section of the anti-Con public, and the betting odds look wrong. I'm actually not especially keen to see the by-election happen, since there will be a pitched battle between Lab and LD, and actually any result (Con hold, Lab win, LD win) will damage the pattern of tactical voting across the country. My guess (though it's all second-hand info) is that all three outcomes have a roughly similarly probability.
    Just had a look at Betfair and there's been a significant move to Con and small moves to Lab and against LD since the header was written - presumably all down to this discussion. The power of PB! Con and Lab odds still look too long to me, but DYOR.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    edited August 2023
    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    One thing to watch about Rutherglen is that Yousless has been campaigning there a lot and has very much associated his face with the campaign. This may be because he is living up to his name, of course, but a First Minister who spends quite so much time on the ground campaigning is unusual. Presumably he thinks they have a chance. It's not as if his in box is not overflowing with problems.

    Campaigning is probably a nice distraction from problems you can't do anything to actually fix...
    True, but here he is again along with Stephen Flynn: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/snp-deal-with-greens-gives-party-certainty-says-stephen-flynn/ar-AA1f1tPu?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=9e138e0711e347d29c395f239e31af50&ei=8

    The interview is interesting in that he is focusing on Sir Kid Starver's policies being basically the same as the Tories. The iron fiscal discipline imposed by Labour may not be doing them much harm in England but in Scotland there is a fantasist choice.
    But the Slab candidate started off by attacking the bairn starving himself, so what are the SNP supposed to do? Support SKS?

    PS TBF it's not at all clear from that piece that Mr Yousaf was actually in Ru'glen when he was interviewed, so your inference might be (uncharacteristically) off?
  • MattW said:

    Morning all.

    I do like "Lee Anderthal".

    Also, spotted this morning. A bit close for comfort.



    .

    .

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    I just think the current Tory party is unfit for purpose and needs to be out of government. The lack of talent it has (a problem it shares with Labour) and its likely descent into a bit of post election infighting will probably mean at least two terms in opposition. So not really a rule, just a logical unfolding of events!
    That "logical unfolding of events", though, rests on how you feel about the Tories now and assumptions you are making about their behaviour in opposition.

    You may be discounting other factors and events that you are currently blind to (along with everyone else) and be a poor forecaster of how you yourself may feel about that in future.
    It isn't just me. Polls suggest that most of the voters think the same. And let's be honest, the Tories are noy going to go into opposition and magically reform themselves. They don't have the talent and there are too many factions who will want a go at the top table. Basically, the country have had enough of them.They're out for at least two terms.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,900

    Peck said:

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    There's a mathematical model that's been created based on that "rule" which has been featured in academic papers I believe.

    That said, my my most likely expected scenario is for the Tories to be out of office for at least two Parliamentary terms, because I expect that they will make poor choices when first in opposition. But clearly this is a prediction that is contingent on those choices, rather than being inevitable.
    It wasn't the rule between the wars. It wasn't the rule after the wars. And it certainly wasn't the rule in the 1970s.

    Indeed, you could say, in economically and politically turbulent times that turbulence will extend to domestic politics.
    As I became aware of politics in the early 70s I assumed that every election brought a change of government. And to be fair, absent the Falklands that might have continued into the 80s with Labour scraping a victory in 1983 and the Tories a landslide in 1987(ish).

    The one rule that does hold true and immutable* of course is that the Tories and Labour will be forever swapping power between them.

    (*until it doesn't)
    It wasn't the Falklands that won the 1983 election for the Tories. It was the SDP.
    Except for the fact that the polls show that SDP voters preferred a Thatcher led Tory government to a Foot led Labour government.

    So if it wasn't for the SDP then Thatcher's landslide could have been even bigger had there been a forced choice.

    Other than that, good point.
    There wasn't a forced choice though, was there? At one stage it looked as though the Liberal-SDP Alliance would be taking over.

    It is the same today. A lot of posters here polarise and reduce everything to either Sunak-Johnson-Truss or Starmer. Devil or the deep blue sea? A lot of people say "Neither, thank you very much".
  • Ratters said:

    .

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    I just think the current Tory party is unfit for purpose and needs to be out of government. The lack of talent it has (a problem it shares with Labour) and its likely descent into a bit of post election infighting will probably mean at least two terms in opposition. So not really a rule, just a logical unfolding of events!
    That "logical unfolding of events", though, rests on how you feel about the Tories now and assumptions you are making about their behaviour in opposition.

    You may be discounting other factors and events that you are currently blind to (along with everyone else) and be a poor forecaster of how you yourself may feel about that in future.
    Its not just how you feel about the Tories now, its how the country feels about the Tories now.

    Right now the country is pissed off with the Tories.

    That's not going to magically vanish the day they leave Downing Street.

    Over time the electorate stops being angry with the old government/stops associating the opposition with the old government, and becomes angry with the new one, but that takes time normally.

    If Labour somehow in five years piss the electorate off more than they're pissed off with the Tories then the Tories could win again, but that is less probable than the alternative currently.
    Agreed.

    And this isn't helped as Tory members are more likely to choose someone from the illiberal right of the party if they lose badly with Sunak/Hunt in charge. The political direction they take means they are less likely to be given the benefit of the doubt by the public.

    Of course governments lose popularity so it's quite possible Labour screw things up sufficiently to lose power after 5 years.

    There's a balance to be had of course - reforms that benefit the country long-term will lose you voters in the short-term. I'd rather Labour make serious improvements in 5 years than offer managed decline with odd bits of populist policy over 10.
    The annoying thing is that lame duck governments can be some of the best at passing sensible and much needed reforms as they've got little time remaining to do so and won't be winning again anyway, so get it done now.

    But Sunak isn't doing that. His agenda is pure managed decline, which won't win the next election but he's wasting any opportunity the Tories have remaining to actually get anything done.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,760
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    One thing to watch about Rutherglen is that Yousless has been campaigning there a lot and has very much associated his face with the campaign. This may be because he is living up to his name, of course, but a First Minister who spends quite so much time on the ground campaigning is unusual. Presumably he thinks they have a chance. It's not as if his in box is not overflowing with problems.

    Campaigning is probably a nice distraction from problems you can't do anything to actually fix...
    True, but here he is again along with Stephen Flynn: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/snp-deal-with-greens-gives-party-certainty-says-stephen-flynn/ar-AA1f1tPu?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=9e138e0711e347d29c395f239e31af50&ei=8

    The interview is interesting in that he is focusing on Sir Kid Starver's policies being basically the same as the Tories. The iron fiscal discipline imposed by Labour may not be doing them much harm in England but in Scotland there is a fantasist choice.
    But the Slab candidate started off by attacking the bairn starving himself, so what are the SNP supposed to do? Support SKS?
    They are supposed to do exactly what they are doing. I was just making the point that the tactics used by SKS in England, which basically amount to don't frighten the horses when they are riding your way, is slightly more problematic in Scotland where they are facing an opponent essentially to the left of them who have never cared if the numbers add up. Rutherglen is not going to be a one off in this context and Labour are likely to need some better answers in Scotland come the general if they are to pick up the seats they are counting on.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    One thing to watch about Rutherglen is that Yousless has been campaigning there a lot and has very much associated his face with the campaign. This may be because he is living up to his name, of course, but a First Minister who spends quite so much time on the ground campaigning is unusual. Presumably he thinks they have a chance. It's not as if his in box is not overflowing with problems.

    Campaigning is probably a nice distraction from problems you can't do anything to actually fix...
    True, but here he is again along with Stephen Flynn: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/snp-deal-with-greens-gives-party-certainty-says-stephen-flynn/ar-AA1f1tPu?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=9e138e0711e347d29c395f239e31af50&ei=8

    The interview is interesting in that he is focusing on Sir Kid Starver's policies being basically the same as the Tories. The iron fiscal discipline imposed by Labour may not be doing them much harm in England but in Scotland there is a fantasist choice.
    But the Slab candidate started off by attacking the bairn starving himself, so what are the SNP supposed to do? Support SKS?
    They are supposed to do exactly what they are doing. I was just making the point that the tactics used by SKS in England, which basically amount to don't frighten the horses when they are riding your way, is slightly more problematic in Scotland where they are facing an opponent essentially to the left of them who have never cared if the numbers add up. Rutherglen is not going to be a one off in this context and Labour are likely to need some better answers in Scotland come the general if they are to pick up the seats they are counting on.
    Mm, thanks. Just added a further comment vut not in time: that TBF it's not at all clear from that piece that Mr Yousaf was actually in Ru'glen when he was interviewed, so your inference might be (uncharacteristically) off?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,760
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    One thing to watch about Rutherglen is that Yousless has been campaigning there a lot and has very much associated his face with the campaign. This may be because he is living up to his name, of course, but a First Minister who spends quite so much time on the ground campaigning is unusual. Presumably he thinks they have a chance. It's not as if his in box is not overflowing with problems.

    Campaigning is probably a nice distraction from problems you can't do anything to actually fix...
    True, but here he is again along with Stephen Flynn: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/snp-deal-with-greens-gives-party-certainty-says-stephen-flynn/ar-AA1f1tPu?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=9e138e0711e347d29c395f239e31af50&ei=8

    The interview is interesting in that he is focusing on Sir Kid Starver's policies being basically the same as the Tories. The iron fiscal discipline imposed by Labour may not be doing them much harm in England but in Scotland there is a fantasist choice.
    But the Slab candidate started off by attacking the bairn starving himself, so what are the SNP supposed to do? Support SKS?
    They are supposed to do exactly what they are doing. I was just making the point that the tactics used by SKS in England, which basically amount to don't frighten the horses when they are riding your way, is slightly more problematic in Scotland where they are facing an opponent essentially to the left of them who have never cared if the numbers add up. Rutherglen is not going to be a one off in this context and Labour are likely to need some better answers in Scotland come the general if they are to pick up the seats they are counting on.
    Mm, thanks. Just added a further comment vut not in time: that TBF it's not at all clear from that piece that Mr Yousaf was actually in Ru'glen when he was interviewed, so your inference might be (uncharacteristically) off?
    He was certainly talking about it. Of course the position of the SLAB candidate is a bit of a gift in that respect.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,943

    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    This would seem a waste of resources in the middle of a war.

    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824
    Russian officer "Colonel Shuvalov" described on Telegram how it is encouraged to fabricate reports about destroyed Ukrainian equipment by filming strikes on different days using various weapons and equipment. This is done to please the upper leadership since everyone benefits from positive reports and inflated numbers. It's a long post but worth reading (source: https://t.me/shouvalov/33)

    Far from the first report of this practice.

    This is known as the "principal/agent problem": generals issue orders but soldiers carry them out, and if they can make the general happy thru faked reports, they will. This is why bodycount reports are so unreliable.
    Of course.
    Ukraine has much the same motivations, but a different set of incentives.
    I believe this is one reason why NATO doctrine devolves decision-making to the lowest level possible, so that decisions are most likely to be made by people with the most accurate battlefield information.
    The Russian whose account is cited makes much the same point.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Foxy said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    And to Greens. More disenchantment with Labour I think.

    The right doesn't have much to say for young people here, but does appeal in other parts of the world.
    Maybe the NZ youth weren't quite as keen on Jacinda's super-Wokery as we'd been led to believe?
    Yes. They're also jumping ship to those notoriously reactionary Green and Te Pati Māori parties as well.
  • ClippP said:

    Peck said:

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    There's a mathematical model that's been created based on that "rule" which has been featured in academic papers I believe.

    That said, my my most likely expected scenario is for the Tories to be out of office for at least two Parliamentary terms, because I expect that they will make poor choices when first in opposition. But clearly this is a prediction that is contingent on those choices, rather than being inevitable.
    It wasn't the rule between the wars. It wasn't the rule after the wars. And it certainly wasn't the rule in the 1970s.

    Indeed, you could say, in economically and politically turbulent times that turbulence will extend to domestic politics.
    As I became aware of politics in the early 70s I assumed that every election brought a change of government. And to be fair, absent the Falklands that might have continued into the 80s with Labour scraping a victory in 1983 and the Tories a landslide in 1987(ish).

    The one rule that does hold true and immutable* of course is that the Tories and Labour will be forever swapping power between them.

    (*until it doesn't)
    It wasn't the Falklands that won the 1983 election for the Tories. It was the SDP.
    Except for the fact that the polls show that SDP voters preferred a Thatcher led Tory government to a Foot led Labour government.

    So if it wasn't for the SDP then Thatcher's landslide could have been even bigger had there been a forced choice.

    Other than that, good point.
    There wasn't a forced choice though, was there? At one stage it looked as though the Liberal-SDP Alliance would be taking over.

    It is the same today. A lot of posters here polarise and reduce everything to either Sunak-Johnson-Truss or Starmer. Devil or the deep blue sea? A lot of people say "Neither, thank you very much".
    No it wasn't a forced choice, voters had 3 choices and positively chose Thatcher's Tories.

    But the claim I was responding to was blaming the SDP for Labour's defeat/Thatcher winning. That's just not true though, since the polls show that forced choice those voters would have broken for the Tories.

    Its arrogance in the extreme for Labour supporters to just add SDP/Lib Dem voters to their column and claim them as a unified "progressive" or "anti-Tory" force. Lib Dem/SDP voters are their own voters making their own choice, and there's no entitlement by Labour or anyone else to them.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited August 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Labour were second in Mid Bedfordshire in 2019 not the LDs and on the Selby swing would have a good chance of taking it. So are unlikely to give the LDs a clear run there

    The LDS were third in North Shropshire which didn't turn out to be an impediment. If Davey's party goes "full gas" they almost always win. The last time they didn't was Witney in 2016. The LDs will go "full gas" in Mid-Beds if there is a by election.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    One thing to watch about Rutherglen is that Yousless has been campaigning there a lot and has very much associated his face with the campaign. This may be because he is living up to his name, of course, but a First Minister who spends quite so much time on the ground campaigning is unusual. Presumably he thinks they have a chance. It's not as if his in box is not overflowing with problems.

    Campaigning is probably a nice distraction from problems you can't do anything to actually fix...
    True, but here he is again along with Stephen Flynn: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/snp-deal-with-greens-gives-party-certainty-says-stephen-flynn/ar-AA1f1tPu?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=9e138e0711e347d29c395f239e31af50&ei=8

    The interview is interesting in that he is focusing on Sir Kid Starver's policies being basically the same as the Tories. The iron fiscal discipline imposed by Labour may not be doing them much harm in England but in Scotland there is a fantasist choice.
    But the Slab candidate started off by attacking the bairn starving himself, so what are the SNP supposed to do? Support SKS?
    They are supposed to do exactly what they are doing. I was just making the point that the tactics used by SKS in England, which basically amount to don't frighten the horses when they are riding your way, is slightly more problematic in Scotland where they are facing an opponent essentially to the left of them who have never cared if the numbers add up. Rutherglen is not going to be a one off in this context and Labour are likely to need some better answers in Scotland come the general if they are to pick up the seats they are counting on.
    Mm, thanks. Just added a further comment vut not in time: that TBF it's not at all clear from that piece that Mr Yousaf was actually in Ru'glen when he was interviewed, so your inference might be (uncharacteristically) off?
    He was certainly talking about it. Of course the position of the SLAB candidate is a bit of a gift in that respect.
    Sure. Add Brexit, oil and gas licensing, denial of the referendum, and so on and so forth, and that poses more problems for SLAB the more SKS's tactics proceed.
  • HYUFD said:

    Labour were second in Mid Bedfordshire in 2019 not the LDs and on the Selby swing would have a good chance of taking it. So are unlikely to give the LDs a clear run there

    The LDS were third in North Shropshire which didn't turn out to be an impediment. If Davey's party goes "full gas" they almost always win. The last time they didn't was Witney in 2016. The LDs will go "full gas" in Mid-Beds if there is a by election.
    When was the last by-election that both LDs and Labour went "full gas" in a Tory-held seat?
  • DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    One thing to watch about Rutherglen is that Yousless has been campaigning there a lot and has very much associated his face with the campaign. This may be because he is living up to his name, of course, but a First Minister who spends quite so much time on the ground campaigning is unusual. Presumably he thinks they have a chance. It's not as if his in box is not overflowing with problems.

    Campaigning is probably a nice distraction from problems you can't do anything to actually fix...
    True, but here he is again along with Stephen Flynn: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/snp-deal-with-greens-gives-party-certainty-says-stephen-flynn/ar-AA1f1tPu?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=9e138e0711e347d29c395f239e31af50&ei=8

    The interview is interesting in that he is focusing on Sir Kid Starver's policies being basically the same as the Tories. The iron fiscal discipline imposed by Labour may not be doing them much harm in England but in Scotland there is a fantasist choice.
    To be fair to Flynn I don't think there are many other plays to make. The SNP are caught in the middle of a corruption scandal - I would say "how massive we don't yet know" but even at its theoretical max it's still fiddling small change compared to the corruption of the Tories.

    So what else can he do? Shout at Labour as being regressive. Hope that makes people look past the corruption.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,943
    Ecuadorian presidential candidate Fernando Villavicencio assassinated
    Anti-corruption figure killed days before election amid sharp rise in violent and organised crime
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/10/ecuador-presidential-candidate-fernando-villavicencio-killed
  • HYUFD said:

    Labour were second in Mid Bedfordshire in 2019 not the LDs and on the Selby swing would have a good chance of taking it. So are unlikely to give the LDs a clear run there

    The LDS were third in North Shropshire which didn't turn out to be an impediment. If Davey's party goes "full gas" they almost always win. The last time they didn't was Witney in 2016. The LDs will go "full gas" in Mid-Beds if there is a by election.
    Is that the difference?

    In a general election, Labour have a decent chance in Mid Beds on national swing and the Lib Dems probably wouldn't bother much with the seat.

    In a by election, LibDems can throw one of their limited number of sinks at the place and they win.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,572
    geoffw said:

    Before our NZ emigré poster opines definitively on the matter, it seems that China looms large in the NZ election.

    Reuters:
    For the first time in decades, foreign and defence policy are in the electoral spotlight in New Zealand, as opinion surveys show public concern about the security environment and the major parties wrestle with how to respond to an assertive China.

    The first part of the country’s defence review, released last week, said that New Zealand's military capabilities had fallen behind and that its geographical isolation was no longer a security guarantee.

    With a general election on Oct. 14, there is no clear path on how the country should respond - a quandary that experts say has voters closely considering external issues, uncommon in New Zealand politics since the 1980s.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/new-zealand-defence-security-become-election-issues-amid-chinas-pacific-push-2023-08-10/

    Kiwis are of course Chinese gooseberries

    Is this the main reason for the swing to the Right in NZ? Does that explain younger people becoming more right wing too?

    The only other stuff I could find was that they are having a severe cost-of-loving crisis, like us. So just punishing the incumbent perhaps, which explains the swing to the Greens too.

    Lesson for UK Labour might be to be hawkish on Ukraine and focus on cost-of-living domestically.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,773
    edited August 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Labour were second in Mid Bedfordshire in 2019 not the LDs and on the Selby swing would have a good chance of taking it. So are unlikely to give the LDs a clear run there

    Yes, I continue to get emails to help the mid-Beds Labour campaign in full swing, even though it's some way away from me. That opinion poll showing Labour ahead was pretty important and is helping win the tactical voting section of the anti-Con public, and the betting odds look wrong. I'm actually not especially keen to see the by-election happen, since there will be a pitched battle between Lab and LD, and actually any result (Con hold, Lab win, LD win) will damage the pattern of tactical voting across the country. My guess (though it's all second-hand info) is that all three outcomes have a roughly similarly probability.
    If Lab fight this, that looks likely, they take a huge risk. If they win fine, but if the Tories hold on they will be heavily criticised. If they lose to the LDs after putting the effort in they will be humiliated, although it would bode well for the LDs in the blue wall in focusing on who the real challengers are. Constituency polls before the campaign, when Lab are doing well nationally are very misleading. As I mentioned before, in your neck of the woods, a private poll in S W Surrey in 1997 before the election had Lab in 2nd place even though it was a LD target. In the election the LDs missed it by under 1000. Having said that LDs made a huge effort and Lab did nothing as you would expect, so not analogous to Mid Beds, but worth noting. Blue wall constituency polls showing Lab will win in a non target seat when Lab are doing well nationally are very misleading when it comes to the actual campaign.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,049
    Carnyx said:
    It means the future of 34 flint castles and abbeys in the east of England will be safeguarded.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,900

    ClippP said:

    Peck said:

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    There's a mathematical model that's been created based on that "rule" which has been featured in academic papers I believe.

    That said, my my most likely expected scenario is for the Tories to be out of office for at least two Parliamentary terms, because I expect that they will make poor choices when first in opposition. But clearly this is a prediction that is contingent on those choices, rather than being inevitable.
    It wasn't the rule between the wars. It wasn't the rule after the wars. And it certainly wasn't the rule in the 1970s.

    Indeed, you could say, in economically and politically turbulent times that turbulence will extend to domestic politics.
    As I became aware of politics in the early 70s I assumed that every election brought a change of government. And to be fair, absent the Falklands that might have continued into the 80s with Labour scraping a victory in 1983 and the Tories a landslide in 1987(ish).

    The one rule that does hold true and immutable* of course is that the Tories and Labour will be forever swapping power between them.

    (*until it doesn't)
    It wasn't the Falklands that won the 1983 election for the Tories. It was the SDP.
    Except for the fact that the polls show that SDP voters preferred a Thatcher led Tory government to a Foot led Labour government.

    So if it wasn't for the SDP then Thatcher's landslide could have been even bigger had there been a forced choice.

    Other than that, good point.
    There wasn't a forced choice though, was there? At one stage it looked as though the Liberal-SDP Alliance would be taking over.

    It is the same today. A lot of posters here polarise and reduce everything to either Sunak-Johnson-Truss or Starmer. Devil or the deep blue sea? A lot of people say "Neither, thank you very much".
    No it wasn't a forced choice, voters had 3 choices and positively chose Thatcher's Tories.
    Oh no we didn't, Mr Roberts! We had a useless voting system then and we have a useless voting system now. Thatcher's Tories squeaked through the middle. There was no enthusiam for them, except among her devotees.

    Don't you remember?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:
    It means the future of 34 flint castles and abbeys in the east of England will be safeguarded.
    Indeed. Barratts aren't training up many people who work with flint, I suspect. But neither are the other big firms.
  • Ratters said:

    .

    rcs1000 said:

    New Zealand is another country where young people are swinging to the right.

    image

    https://essentialreport.co.nz/questions/test-question-2/

    There are no rules.
    Indeed, the human desire to make every datapoint fit a storyline is a very dangerous cognitive bias.
    We see that here with the belief that because we had 18 years of Tory rule, followed by 13 years of New Labour, followed by another 14 years of Conservative government, then we must now be due 10-15 years of Labour again.

    There is no rule to this pattern. And yet it's remarkably persistent.
    I just think the current Tory party is unfit for purpose and needs to be out of government. The lack of talent it has (a problem it shares with Labour) and its likely descent into a bit of post election infighting will probably mean at least two terms in opposition. So not really a rule, just a logical unfolding of events!
    That "logical unfolding of events", though, rests on how you feel about the Tories now and assumptions you are making about their behaviour in opposition.

    You may be discounting other factors and events that you are currently blind to (along with everyone else) and be a poor forecaster of how you yourself may feel about that in future.
    Its not just how you feel about the Tories now, its how the country feels about the Tories now.

    Right now the country is pissed off with the Tories.

    That's not going to magically vanish the day they leave Downing Street.

    Over time the electorate stops being angry with the old government/stops associating the opposition with the old government, and becomes angry with the new one, but that takes time normally.

    If Labour somehow in five years piss the electorate off more than they're pissed off with the Tories then the Tories could win again, but that is less probable than the alternative currently.
    Agreed.

    And this isn't helped as Tory members are more likely to choose someone from the illiberal right of the party if they lose badly with Sunak/Hunt in charge. The political direction they take means they are less likely to be given the benefit of the doubt by the public.

    Of course governments lose popularity so it's quite possible Labour screw things up sufficiently to lose power after 5 years.

    There's a balance to be had of course - reforms that benefit the country long-term will lose you voters in the short-term. I'd rather Labour make serious improvements in 5 years than offer managed decline with odd bits of populist policy over 10.
    The annoying thing is that lame duck governments can be some of the best at passing sensible and much needed reforms as they've got little time remaining to do so and won't be winning again anyway, so get it done now.

    But Sunak isn't doing that. His agenda is pure managed decline, which won't win the next election but he's wasting any opportunity the Tories have remaining to actually get anything done.
    I wonder what Rishi's mental map of the next election is?

    You're right about the "I am going to die, and that mans you can't kill me" trope- Mr Zellaby in the Midwich Cuckoos and all that. Major did it to a degree, so did Brown.

    I'm not seeing it from Sunak- climbdowns on housing, fantasy politics on Abroad, budget plans for 2025+ that simply don't add up. Is the aim to squeeze a win and worry about the consequences then, or just to smear metaphorical shit on the walls of Number Ten?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,340
    On the 1983 election, those of us old enough remember the toxic effect of a) Michael Foot, and b) Labour's manifesto being the "longest suicide note in history". Although Foot was a great chap, his capacity to win a GE was comparable to Corbyn's.
    I think a) and b) were more significant than the Falklands or the SDP (and, of course, they gave rise to the SDP in the first place).
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