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Two thirds of CON members don’t think there’s a climate emergency – politicalbetting.com

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  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    kjh said:

    Yes but you might be arrested for inciting violence. There is a time and a place. Falls Road, no. Lewes bonfire society where it is done every year, yes. A perfect example where outlawing it is stupid.
    That's an excellent distinction that you draw. Those are two very different contexts.

    But there's no tradition of unthreatening Koran-burning here. If there were, I'd be OK with it being allowed to continue.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,402

    If you are a collector of odd accents, try listening to the Radio 4 announcer Neil Nunes.
    That's the poshest most RP Jamaican accent I've ever heard.
  • That's the poshest most RP Jamaican accent I've ever heard.
    I haven't done a Jamaican accent bwana
  • It is extremely rude, disrespectful and provocative to burn a religious text, as it is a flag - and I wouldn't do it.

    Nevertheless, I would defend someone's right to do so and I'd certainly like to call out some of Islam's central tenets as bollocks, politely so, as far as possible, because I think they are.
    Boris back in 2005:

    "The proposed ban on incitement to "religious hatred" makes no sense unless it involves a ban on the Koran itself; and that would be pretty absurd, when you consider that the Bill's intention is to fight Islamophobia."
    - writing in The Daily Telegraph, 21 July 2005
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,821

    It is extremely rude, disrespectful and provocative to burn a religious text, as it is a flag - and I wouldn't do it.

    Nevertheless, I would defend someone's right to do so and I'd certainly like to call out some of Islam's central tenets as bollocks, politely so, as far as possible, because I think they are.
    That's fair.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    Peck said:

    You're not. A charge of offending public decency would usually stick. Look what happened to this bloke:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/naked-rambler-finishes-trek-after-900-miles-and-16-arrests-74964.html
    Well in Scotland there be monsters
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,559
    edited August 2023

    Thanks. My only modification to that would be that those consequences cannot include violence and the threat of that violence cannot be used to blackmail against the action in the first place.

    That is where the line must be drawn.
    Agree. I was thinking along the lines of you might be arrested for inciting violence by your actions, or if there were such a law for being a prat in thinking that burning the bible in public was a good idea. That sort of thing.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,856
    ...
    Eabhal said:

    I'm glad we've moved on from the emotive cycling debate to the much more relaxed Koran burning discussion.

    It's no joke getting on the wrong side of a radicalised sect that brooks no counter-argument, believes in spreading its message 'by the sword', and has a religious zeal that can become suicidal.

    On the other hand some Muslims can be almost as bad.

    *ah, my coat*
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    edited August 2023
    FF43 said:

    No. It's because I think with rights comes with responsibilities. If people don't accept that, I'm not going to bother with them. There are plenty of genuinely oppressed people that should get my attention instead.

    Sorry.
    Not how law and morality works. You don't get to ignore fraud victims because you personally relate more closely to battered wives, any more than you can commit one of those offences more easily than the other out of personal preference.

    and with rights do NOT come responsibilities. My right not to be assaulted or murdered is independent of anything I do.

    Sorry.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,402
    Peck said:

    You're not. A charge of offending public decency would usually stick. Look what happened to this bloke:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/naked-rambler-finishes-trek-after-900-miles-and-16-arrests-74964.html
    Surely whether they offend public decency or not depends on how good they look naked?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,954
    Hi all. Just checking in. Am on Day 9 of an 18 day retreat. Free day today. No 5 hours of meditation or teaching today.
    As for politics. Nothing much matters. And what does doesn't matter much.
    Love to you all.
    Later.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,821
    Haven't done Lego since the kids were kids, but seriously tempted by this.
    https://twitter.com/Falconbricks/status/1687117460921794560
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    dixiedean said:

    Hi all. Just checking in. Am on Day 9 of an 18 day retreat. Free day today. No 5 hours of meditation or teaching today.
    As for politics. Nothing much matters. And what does doesn't matter much.
    Love to you all.
    Later.

    I feel like I missed this development
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,559

    How about burning huge piles of lycra outside the headquarters of the British Cycling Federation whilst shouting, "Your Bikes Are Shit!" ?

    Now you have gone too far :smiley:
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,929

    I don’t think they were alleged, there is archeological and historical evidence of their existence. It shouldn’t matter that the Roman warm period and medieval warm periods happened - the current rise in temps is very different.
    The point was that if you cannot transport goods around easily, you just have to accept whatever rubbish you can produce locally.

    So evidence of old vineyards doesn't mean much really. It might just have been desperation rather than some kind of Mediterranean climate.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,856

    The point was that if you cannot transport goods around easily, you just have to accept whatever rubbish you can produce locally.

    So evidence of old vineyards doesn't mean much really. It might just have been desperation rather than some kind of Mediterranean climate.
    Speaking of desperation...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,887
    edited August 2023
    kjh said:

    This is interesting. You and @leon have taken the exact opposite positions and (possibly) perceive me to be on the opposite side of the argument to both of you. Oxymoron.

    I am with @Casino_Royale with this one for a change and in the middle. I'm for free speech. You can burn bibles, burn flags, but accept there are consequences for for insulting people.
    I'm not, although I accept the position of absolute free speech is a valid one.

    If it turns out banning wilful Koran burning would also impact the free speech of the much better people than them, I might accept the Koran burning. But I would be doing that for the rights of the much better people, not the rights of the bastards burning the Koran.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,642
    .. vNilla again
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,292
    Andy_JS said:

    At any given point in time, there are people saying: "We are doomed". In retrospect it always turns out to be nonsense.
    Some survivors bias there!

    Clearly people who were correct to express their foreboding of doom aren't around to discuss it afterwards.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited August 2023
    FWIW, to judge from the way Trump came down those aeroplane steps he seems to be in better than usual psychological form - grasping and ritual ungrasping, but no ritualised tapping. Either he won't go bananas in the courtroom today, or else he's giving it his all just to manage everyday things and he will. Probably the former. (Storing it all up.)
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    The planet has been at higher global temps before. I believe the equilibrium position can be changed to different levels. Lots of feedback loops, both positive and negative in the system. One, more heat, more water vapour, more clouds, more energy reflected back into space. Or do you think we are heading down the Venus route (not what the evidence of hotter past temperatures suggests)?
    The planet without 8 billion people on it has not been at higher temperatures before. I strongly doubt we are "going down the Venus route" but Venus has AFAWK not had (a) life forms armed with (b) nuclear weapons on it in the past, so what's the relevance? The planet will get by just fine and so will life, including mammalian and indeed human life, but that doesn't preclude my best guess of "famine, flooding, mass migration leading to war, leading to tactical then strategic nuclear war." Why would it?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,559
    dixiedean said:

    Hi all. Just checking in. Am on Day 9 of an 18 day retreat. Free day today. No 5 hours of meditation or teaching today.
    As for politics. Nothing much matters. And what does doesn't matter much.
    Love to you all.
    Later.

    One of the only times on pb where telling another poster to chill out isn't appropriate. In fact to do so could be fatal.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,645
    edited August 2023

    That's the poshest most RP Jamaican accent I've ever heard.
    Mrs PtP and I have talked about this at some length but we can't figure out what is going on. It sounds very much like he had a perfectly normal Caribbean accent at one point but took elocution lessons and didn't finish the course. The result is some sort of hybrid Jamaican/posh-BBC. It is very distracting when he is reading the news. You are thinking about his speech mannerisms rather than what he is saying.

    I've always though Loyd Grossman was putting it on deliberately, but I don't know and don't care.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,887
    edited August 2023
    Miklosvar said:

    Not how law and morality works. You don't get to ignore fraud victims because you personally relate more closely to battered wives, any more than you can commit one of those offences more easily than the other out of personal preference.

    and with rights do NOT come responsibilities. My right not to be assaulted or murdered is independent of anything I do.

    Sorry.
    Completely irrelevant to my point. Sorry (for the last time).

  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,929
    edited August 2023

    Speaking of desperation...
    The climate was different in the past. I don't think anyone denies this. I don't think there's much evidence that it was substantially warmer a few hundred years ago.

    The most recent change that made a large difference in Britain was it getting much wetter some time during the Bronze Age. There's plenty of good evidence for that.
  • Surely whether they offend public decency or not depends on how good they look naked?
    It is Allah's will that we are born naked?
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Speaking of desperation...
    Not desperate at all. Have you any idea how difficult and dangerous it is transporting a cargo from Portugal/France/Madeira to England in a sailing ship with no engine? People were doing it in those days to the extent that the basic unit of a ton, derives from a (liquid) tun of wine, because that was the default cargo, because the demand was there, because the native produce was either non existent or unutterably disgusting.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,642

    The climate was different in the past. I don't think anyone denies this. I don't think there's much evidence that it was substantially warmer a few hundred years ago.

    The most recent change that made a large difference in Britain was it getting much wetter some time during the Bronze Age. There's plenty of good evidence for that.
    There IS evidence that the planet was warmer than recent times (before the current warming) in the Roman and Medieval warm periods. Lots of separate evidences. The great era of Cathedral building in Europe corresponds with generally benign climates, that tailed off in the mid 14th C.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    FF43 said:

    Completely irrelevant to my point. Sorry (for the last time).

    A 100% answer to your point, if you were not too thick to see it. Unless you seriously think that my right not to be murdered is contingent on my carrying out some responsibility. Do you? If you do, what is the bare minimum I have to do to validate the right?

    Sorry.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,171

    ...

    It's no joke getting on the wrong side of a radicalised sect that brooks no counter-argument, believes in spreading its message 'by the sword', and has a religious zeal that can become suicidal.

    On the other hand some Muslims can be almost as bad.

    *ah, my coat*
    It's no joke getting on the wrong side of a radicalised sect that has access to 2.5 tonne weapons, believes that might is right, and kills 1,600 people each year.

    On the other hand some Muslims can be almost as bad.

    *ah, my coat*
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Miklosvar said:

    Not desperate at all. Have you any idea how difficult and dangerous it is transporting a cargo from Portugal/France/Madeira to England in a sailing ship with no engine? People were doing it in those days to the extent that the basic unit of a ton, derives from a (liquid) tun of wine, because that was the default cargo, because the demand was there, because the native produce was either non existent or unutterably disgusting.
    As I noted earlier, one very good reason for making wine in England even if it was crap: ritual usage, in the Church.

    But to drink with youjr high class meal ...
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,444
    edited August 2023
    FF43 said:

    Not at all. Casino could have said the people publicly burning the Koran purely to make others unhappy are wankers. But he didn't.

    Personally I can't think of anything more wankist than what those guys are doing.
    Was Martin Luther a wanker for nailing his faeces to the door? ;)

    Ok he'd have been a wanker (or equivalent medieval insult) for doing that, but people also thought he was a wanker for nailing his theses to the door too.

    In a free society people have the right to be wankers. And some people need to be, such as Luther, to challenge assumptions and enable progress.

    A newspaper like the Grauniad opposing liberalism and freedom is more of a threat to liberalism than people abusing their freedoms: which they have every right to do.

    If people are being wankers, roll your eyes at them and ignore them. Don't give them the oxygen of publicity. Certainly don't abolish valuable freedoms.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,228

    Whoouu would livve in a howse like thisss?

    A nonce
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Well in Scotland there be monsters
    For his own good. Midges.

    In any case - he was beaten up in St Ives. Last time I looked, it weas in England.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,171
    Carnyx said:

    For his own good. Midges.

    In any case - he was beaten up in St Ives. Last time I looked, it weas in England.
    There was a naked bike ride in Edinburgh a few weeks ago. Wonder how that was legal?

    (No, I wasn't there).
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Carnyx said:

    As I noted earlier, one very good reason for making wine in England even if it was crap: ritual usage, in the Church.

    But to drink with youjr high class meal ...
    Missed your earlier post, but does it say in Leviticus or something rhat wine has to be home-grown?

    Haven't taken communion for 40 odd years, but Cof E wine is South African port I think - presumably because unfortified red wine is unpalatable to those not used to it. I have always remembered the bit in 1984 where O'Brien gives W and J wine and they are disappointed how thin and bitter it is.
  • Eabhal said:

    There was a naked bike ride in Edinburgh a few weeks ago. Wonder how that was legal?

    (No, I wasn't there).
    I want to ride my bicycle
    I want to ride my bike
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,436

    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Eabhal said:

    There was a naked bike ride in Edinburgh a few weeks ago. Wonder how that was legal?

    (No, I wasn't there).
    Don't care if they were naked. The demo to 'save the streets for cyclists' nearly killed me when I was in the middle of the green man crossing on South Bridge - they just ignored the red. I have hated that kind of self-important shit in Lycra ever since, so someone without Lycra somehow seems an improvement.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,638

    I want to ride my bicycle
    I want to ride my bike
    I’ve got a bike
    You can ride it if you like
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Miklosvar said:

    Missed your earlier post, but does it say in Leviticus or something rhat wine has to be home-grown?

    Haven't taken communion for 40 odd years, but Cof E wine is South African port I think - presumably because unfortified red wine is unpalatable to those not used to it. I have always remembered the bit in 1984 where O'Brien gives W and J wine and they are disappointed how thin and bitter it is.
    Was thinking more of cost and practicalities. No offie for your typical monk in Yorkshire to nip round and buy some port or Buckfast, eh?

    But - on further reflection - wasn't it only the celebrant who took a sip of the wine? In which case even a small amount of manky Chateau Scunthorpe would do perfectly well to keep the ritual year rolling along.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    rcs1000 said:

    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Carnyx said:

    Was thinking more of cost and practicalities. No offie for your typical monk in Yorkshire to nip round and buy some port or Buckfast, eh?

    But - on further reflection - wasn't it only the celebrant who took a sip of the wine? In which case even a small amount of manky Chateau Scunthorpe would do perfectly well to keep the ritual year rolling along.
    Yes, I think that's right. One of the 39 Articles is Of The Two Kinds, saying it's no longer Ok for only priests to get da wine.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,171
    Carnyx said:

    Don't care if they were naked. The demo to 'save the streets for cyclists' nearly killed me when I was in the middle of the green man crossing on South Bridge - they just ignored the red. I have hated that kind of self-important shit in Lycra ever since, so someone without Lycra somehow seems an improvement.
    I'm sorry you were nearly killed. Did you report to the police?

    FYI If that was Critical Mass - they have permission from the council and the police to keep together in a big group and run the reds. There are usually a few councillors in there keeping an eye on it.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,638
    Eabhal said:

    There was a naked bike ride in Edinburgh a few weeks ago. Wonder how that was legal?

    (No, I wasn't there).
    They have them in the US where, strictly speaking, the participants have no clothes on but they do have bodypaint on.

    Surely these cyclists must have footwear on ? Wouldn’t it be too painful on the foot pedalling with no protection on the bottom of the foot.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,436
    Miklosvar said:

    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Eabhal said:

    I'm sorry you were nearly killed. Did you report to the police?

    FYI If that was Critical Mass - they have permission from the council and the police to keep together in a big group and run the reds. There are usually a few councillors in there keeping an eye on it.
    Didn't know who they were, either collectively or individually, so not much point in reporting. I forgot about the CCTV, though. It was about 20 years ago. But what shocked me was it wasn't the usual ned or courier or male student doing top speed on the pavement. Those people should have known a lot better. Yet they behaved to me just as they whined car drivers were behaving to them. All of them, collectively.


  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,436

    Was Martin Luther a wanker for nailing his faeces to the door? ;)

    Ok he'd have been a wanker (or equivalent medieval insult) for doing that, but people also thought he was a wanker for nailing his theses to the door too.

    In a free society people have the right to be wankers. And some people need to be, such as Luther, to challenge assumptions and enable progress.

    A newspaper like the Grauniad opposing liberalism and freedom is more of a threat to liberalism than people abusing their freedoms: which they have every right to do.

    If people are being wankers, roll your eyes at them and ignore them. Don't give them the oxygen of publicity. Certainly don't abolish valuable freedoms.
    On the other hand, it's completely OK for the Guardian to say they are wankers for burning the Koran, so long as they say that being wanker is not illegal.

    (And, of course, we're falling into the trap set by both sets of wankers. They both want a fight. We don't have to give it to them.)
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,887
    edited August 2023
    Miklosvar said:

    A 100% answer to your point, if you were not too thick to see it. Unless you seriously think that my right not to be murdered is contingent on my carrying out some responsibility. Do you? If you do, what is the bare minimum I have to do to validate the right?

    Sorry.
    On the other hand my right not to be incarcerated is contingent on not committing a crime. My right to drive a car is contingent on passing a test and obeying the traffic laws. My, or more likely my children's, right to a specific education is contingent on proper behaviour at school. The law will say what your responsibilities are. It's absolutely normal.

    As I said above I'm perfectly cool about banning Koran burning in principle. My only concern is that it would make bad law. How would you determine the right level of hurt and so on? But I don't care about the rights of those guys in Sweden. They can look after themselves, including not burning the book in the first place.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited August 2023
    Eabhal said:

    I'm sorry you were nearly killed. Did you report to the police?

    FYI If that was Critical Mass - they have permission from the council and the police to keep together in a big group and run the reds. There are usually a few councillors in there keeping an eye on it.
    PS re running the reds -

    1. How the **** am I supposed to know?
    2. How the **** is it OK to do that when there are people *on the bloody crossing, right in the middle*? I had cyclists passingf within a foot of me on all sides.

    It's insane. I've never heard of such a thing and wouldn't have believed it if I did.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,171
    edited August 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    rcs1000 said:

    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    TBF the right are always sayingf we needn't bother because things are massively worse ...
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,331
    I know I was caught with a bloody knife standing over the body of the guy who bled to death but I definitely didn't kill him, because, in the past, before I was alive, other people bled to death of natural causes. That couldn't have been me, therefore this guy isn't either. I rest my case.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,171
    Carnyx said:

    PS re running the reds -

    1. How the **** am I supposed to know?
    2. How the **** is it OK to do that when there are people *on the bloody crossing, right in the middle*? I had cyclists passingf within a foot of me on all sides.

    It's insane. I've never heard of such a thing and wouldn't have believed it if I did.
    It's controversial, for sure. The front of the pack never runs a red, but the tail end does. I've done it a couple of times and stayed at the front for that reason.

    It's policed as a political march, so is legal apparently. They usually have a few cyclists block pedestrian crossings to ensure no one gets hurt, and mandate a very slow speed (too slow for me!)
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,638
    rcs1000 said:

    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    Because they are fanatics, zealots. Whatever you do will never be enough.
  • rcs1000 said:

    On the other hand, it's completely OK for the Guardian to say they are wankers for burning the Koran, so long as they say that being wanker is not illegal.

    (And, of course, we're falling into the trap set by both sets of wankers. They both want a fight. We don't have to give it to them.)
    Indeed, if they're saying that they are wankers but have a right to be wankers then that is OK.

    However the phrase "there must be boundaries" is alarming, although of course its in quotation marks. No, there must not be boundaries. Yes its wankerish, but no its not illegal, nor should it be. Free speech with boundaries is not free speech. The limit is not offending others, its breaking the law by inciting people to violence, which is not what his happening here.

    Where's the pro-liberty balance? Reading the article it is all one-sided people wanting to criminalise free speech, and while its all in quotation marks giving the Grauniad plausible deniability that they are not saying that themselves, the implication hangs heavy in the air that it is what they think.

    Where is the alternative viewpoint, or a comparable headline or lead article, saying how precious and important free speech is? That it doesn't matter if people are wankers, they have a right to be and we must not change that? Unless I'm mistaken, on that, there only seems to be tumbleweed.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,270
    On the cost of electric cars in the US: FWIW, the lowest-cost Chevrolet Bolt now has a list price of 26.5K. But how much it will actually cost the buyer depends very much on whether they qualify for a subsidy: https://ev.pse.com/ (And, of course, taxes.)

    Since I am not in the market for a car, I can't give you more details. (Which would vary from state to state.)

    But I can give you this generality: In recent years, legislators here have been trying to find ways to subsidize inexpensive electric cars. (I don't know to what extent they have succeeded.)

  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    rcs1000 said:

    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    Things are great for you and me, but then (without exaggeration) you and I would probably commit suicide rather than live the life of the people who make our iphones for us, and (also without exaggeration) there are billions of Indians and Africans to whom the life of the iphone makers woud look like heaven. Now, it's possible that we can make nano bots to make the iphones, but people work on a macro level and want macro houses and cars and roads to drive the cars on and airports and planes to fly about in. Standing still looks just about achievable at the moment, but why should the billions agree to a standstill?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited August 2023
    Eabhal said:

    It's controversial, for sure. The front of the pack never runs a red, but the tail end does. I've done it a couple of times and stayed at the front for that reason.

    It's policed as a political march, so is legal apparently. They usually have a few cyclists block pedestrian crossings to ensure no one gets hurt, and mandate a very slow speed (too slow for me!)
    I think it must be the same lot, grinning all over their faces - if I had panicked, several people would have been hurt as well as me.

    No, that last, blocking pedestrian crossings, didn't happen for me. Definitely not. They were going pretty fast, too.

    If you have anything to do with them - just tell them to stop it. They're not a ****ing old style Orange March.

    Edit: that is exactly the sort of thing that would make me go out and buy several packs of carpet tacks if I ever knew when and where the same lot would be.

  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Taz said:

    Because they are fanatics, zealots. Whatever you do will never be enough.
    Tell me you have never left Europe, without telling me you have never left Europe.

    Ok, that one trip to Florida.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,883
    edited August 2023
    So….. THAT went well


    FAILURE: Mark Zuckerberg's Threads is now the biggest failure in online history. No other platform has lost as many users as quickly as Threads.
    cnn.com/2023/08/03/tec…


    https://twitter.com/amuse/status/1687187829477040128?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,856
    Miklosvar said:

    Not desperate at all. Have you any idea how difficult and dangerous it is transporting a cargo from Portugal/France/Madeira to England in a sailing ship with no engine? People were doing it in those days to the extent that the basic unit of a ton, derives from a (liquid) tun of wine, because that was the default cargo, because the demand was there, because the native produce was either non existent or unutterably disgusting.
    The Romans were at the centre of a vast network of trade routes, taking from each territory what was best made, mined, or grown from that territory. I find the idea that they would have attempted to cultivate vines in the frozen wastes of Yorkshire because they were dying of thirst to be risible. Even if there were difficulties with importing wine from the continent they could still have quite easily confined their vinicultural efforts to the South of England, and transported the wine oop North by road.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,171
    edited August 2023
    Miklosvar said:

    Tell me you have never left Europe, without telling me you have never left Europe.

    Ok, that one trip to Florida.
    It's weird how Taz has interpreted the progress we have made on reducing emissions, and the increasing ease of doing in the future, as a reason to stop?!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,436
    Eabhal said:

    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    Yep:

    That transportation part is going to come down too. Ditto buildings are codes are improved and more people use heat pumps.

    It's genuinely all good news. I can really see us halving emissions again, with improving quality of life.

    The threat is to solving our problems is us thinking this is all some kind of emergency that provokes a backlash.

    Almost no problems are solved with revolutions: iteration is all.
  • .
    Eabhal said:

    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,559
    Eabhal said:

    I'm sorry you were nearly killed. Did you report to the police?

    FYI If that was Critical Mass - they have permission from the council and the police to keep together in a big group and run the reds. There are usually a few councillors in there keeping an eye on it.
    Seems like an odd law if the guy in the articulated lorry coming through the green lights at the cross roads doesn't know. I hav a vision of hundreds of naked squashed bodies and buckled wheels piled up in the middle of the road
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited August 2023

    The Romans were at the centre of a vast network of trade routes, taking from each territory what was best made, mined, or grown from that territory. I find the idea that they would have attempted to cultivate vines in the frozen wastes of Yorkshire because they were dying of thirst to be risible. Even if there were difficulties with importing wine from the continent they could still have quite easily confined their vinicultural efforts to the South of England, and transported the wine oop North by road.
    Road transport far too inefficient. Take it by sea to (for instance) Brough on Humber, for York.

    https://www.roman-britain.co.uk/places/petuaria/

    Edit: but that strengthens your point.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,887

    Was Martin Luther a wanker for nailing his faeces to the door? ;)

    Ok he'd have been a wanker (or equivalent medieval insult) for doing that, but people also thought he was a wanker for nailing his theses to the door too.

    In a free society people have the right to be wankers. And some people need to be, such as Luther, to challenge assumptions and enable progress.

    A newspaper like the Grauniad opposing liberalism and freedom is more of a threat to liberalism than people abusing their freedoms: which they have every right to do.

    If people are being wankers, roll your eyes at them and ignore them. Don't give them the oxygen of publicity. Certainly don't abolish valuable freedoms.
    As that act of Martin Luther triggered wars that resulted in up to 20 million deaths including one third of the German population, I'm not sure a successful banning might have better.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    kjh said:

    Seems like an odd law if the guy in the articulated lorry coming through the green lights at the cross roads doesn't know. I hav a vision of hundreds of naked squashed bodies and buckled wheels piled up in the middle of the road
    Pedestrian crossing, so red lights on both - but, ny the same token, how are the pedestrians to know? As in my case.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Leon said:

    So….. THAT went well


    FAILURE: Mark Zuckerberg's Threads is now the biggest failure in online history. No other platform has lost as many users as quickly as Threads.
    cnn.com/2023/08/03/tec…


    https://twitter.com/amuse/status/1687187829477040128?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    I signed up for it, never used it. What was bonkers about it was it was predicated on being signed up to Instagram, which is a witless photo sharing platform, with zero crossover to wanting to participate in The Great Debate.

    Musk vs Zuck = Dumb vs Dumber
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,436
    Miklosvar said:

    Things are great for you and me, but then (without exaggeration) you and I would probably commit suicide rather than live the life of the people who make our iphones for us, and (also without exaggeration) there are billions of Indians and Africans to whom the life of the iphone makers woud look like heaven. Now, it's possible that we can make nano bots to make the iphones, but people work on a macro level and want macro houses and cars and roads to drive the cars on and airports and planes to fly about in. Standing still looks just about achievable at the moment, but why should the billions agree to a standstill?
    Those people making the iPhones are living massively better lives than their parents. They aren't in rural China living subsistence lives.

    There's an amazing NPR series where they interview textile workers in Bangladesh. 19 year old girls working machines for 12 hours a day in horrible conditions.

    These are people that we worry about in the West. But all they can talk about is how happy they are they are no longer living on a farm, and sure the work is boring, but they share a flat with their friends, and they can buy make up, and they're never hungry.

    What you see as hell, they see as progress.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,883
    “THREADS”

    lol
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,171
    Carnyx said:

    Road transport far too inefficient. Take it by sea to (for instance) Brough on Humber, for York.

    https://www.roman-britain.co.uk/places/petuaria/

    Edit: but that strengthens your point.
    At Hadrian's Wall they found delivery notes from vineyards in Spain. And complaints about the quality, I vaguely remember.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,171
    kjh said:

    Seems like an odd law if the guy in the articulated lorry coming through the green lights at the cross roads doesn't know. I hav a vision of hundreds of naked squashed bodies and buckled wheels piled up in the middle of the road
    Yep - I don't like it very much at all. The police seem to be aware and chill with it though.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,436
    Miklosvar said:

    Things are great for you and me, but then (without exaggeration) you and I would probably commit suicide rather than live the life of the people who make our iphones for us, and (also without exaggeration) there are billions of Indians and Africans to whom the life of the iphone makers woud look like heaven. Now, it's possible that we can make nano bots to make the iphones, but people work on a macro level and want macro houses and cars and roads to drive the cars on and airports and planes to fly about in. Standing still looks just about achievable at the moment, but why should the billions agree to a standstill?
    Here you go: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/05/14/184019151/episode-458-bangladeshs-t-shirt-economy

    This is well worth reading.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,883
    Miklosvar said:

    I signed up for it, never used it. What was bonkers about it was it was predicated on being signed up to Instagram, which is a witless photo sharing platform, with zero crossover to wanting to participate in The Great Debate.

    Musk vs Zuck = Dumb vs Dumber
    Musk is not dumb

    Threads had multiple problems from the off, which - at the time - I detailed on here. It was doomed from the get-go
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,270
    edited August 2023
    The closest dealer is offering a Chevrolet Bolt for 27.5K: https://buy.leejohnsonchevrolet.com/chevrolet/?evar109=114482&evar120=Sincro

    (Dunno if you actually have to pay list price for one. Which would be unusual in US car markets, most of the time.)
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,444
    edited August 2023
    FF43 said:

    As that act of Martin Luther triggered wars that resulted in up to 20 million deaths including one third of the German population, I'm not sure a successful banning might have better.
    The act of Martin Luther helped trigger the enlightenment.

    Yes some retrograde and illiberal people were willing to fight the concept of the enlightenment. That is a fight that was worth having though, the world would not have been better for avoiding those deaths and remaining pre-enlightenment.

    Deaths != a cause is bad. Some fights are worth having.

    The UK was right to stand up to the Nazis in WWII.
    Those fighting for freedom were right to do so versus the unenlightened who wanted repression.
    The Ukrainians are right to fight the Russians.

    A successful banning of Luther would have been much, much worse.

    A successful termination of our enlightened free speech, that millions have died to attain in the past, and then millions more have died protect in the past, would not be better.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,171
    edited August 2023

    .

    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,303
    O/T

    Cricket trivia question:
    Why was 23rd December 1981 an important day for Geoff Boycott?
  • Eabhal said:

    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    The Romans were at the centre of a vast network of trade routes, taking from each territory what was best made, mined, or grown from that territory. I find the idea that they would have attempted to cultivate vines in the frozen wastes of Yorkshire because they were dying of thirst to be risible. Even if there were difficulties with importing wine from the continent they could still have quite easily confined their vinicultural efforts to the South of England, and transported the wine oop North by road.
    Yes.

    1. I was talking about the claimed medieval warm period, not the Romans.

    2. At least one of us is a professional, paid for, made a living out of it, ancient historian. I am guessing that's only one of us. "centre of a vast network of trade routes" my arse, what was Roman Britain at the centre of?

    3. I grow a lot of citrus fruit, in England. It's a shit climate to do it, and 95% of the citrus I consume (and all the nice citrus) comes from abroad via Tesco. People grow stuff for fun in marginal climates just to see if they can.

    Find evidence of a Roman ship full of amphorae full of English wine on its way to foreign markets and get back to me.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    Leon said:

    Musk is not dumb

    Threads had multiple problems from the off, which - at the time - I detailed on here. It was doomed from the get-go
    He certainly isn't dumb - he knew buying twitter at the price he'd offered was a mistake and tried to back out of it, which shows some smarts. Less so that he was forced into buying it at the original price.

    As someone who doesn't use twitter but used to scroll through it a bit, it just seems like as long as it doesn't collapse and stop working entirely it'll retain first place, since people can't be bothered to go somewhere else.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,270
    There's a good explanation of how development has helped the poor in nations like Indonesia in Michael Shellenberger's "Apocalyse Never". And how the Green religion in developed nations is holding many of them back.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,436

    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,171

    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    The graph demonstrates a strong correlation between finding the roads dangerous and not cycling, which is what you would expect. People in the UK find it dangerous; they don't cycle.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,436
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Cricket trivia question:
    Why was 23rd December 1981 an important day for Geoff Boycott?

    His average run rate broke 1.0 for the first time?

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    Well, he's right people won't like it for that reason, and Goodwin almost certainly take things way further than is justified because he likes getting attention, ubt I have to say having attended such things they are not very useful a lot of the time. They could be, but often people come across as worried they'll say the wrong thing, and hyper focused on race as a result, rather than getting into really thinking about the issues.

    People won’t like it because it’s Goodwin but it’s true. I’d go further: the evidence shows that it doesn’t work. If anything, it makes people more racist.

    https://nitter.net/GoodwinMJ
    Evidence on anti-racism training is mixed at best. Major recent review concluded we now spend BILLIONS on "diversity training" which either makes no difference or makes things worse. Everybody in research knows this. They just go along with it bc don't want to call out the new religion

    https://nitter.net/residentadviser/status/1687104437352026113#m
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,436

    There's a good explanation of how development has helped the poor in nations like Indonesia in Michael Shellenberger's "Apocalyse Never". And how the Green religion in developed nations is holding many of them back.

    I read a fantastic development economics book about twenty years ago, that started "There's only one thing worse for a developing country than well intentioned western aid, and that's oil."
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Someone: I am a CO2 exhaler

    Bart: I am an an oxygen/nitrogen inhaler but I respect your CO2 exhalation even if I completely disagree with it. Furthermore blah, blah, and indeed blah. You aren't masquerading that CO2 exhalation is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-air fanatics. Blah.

    And so on.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    Well. I’ve rediscovered cash after more than a decade. In the Balkans. On holiday.

    My main takeaway? It’s a bloody stupid, time-consuming, expensive ‘system’.

    Who would design a system now that requires the bloke who is selling you goods/service to have change just so you can buy something? Who needs you to visit a cash machine 500 yards plus away? Whose main form of trade can literally be blown away in the sea breeze?

    Fuck this. Human life is and will be better when we can rid ourselves of this antiquated nonsense worldwide.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,641
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Cricket trivia question:
    Why was 23rd December 1981 an important day for Geoff Boycott?

    Was he made captain of England during the India series??
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,171
    Miklosvar said:

    Someone: I am a CO2 exhaler

    Bart: I am an an oxygen/nitrogen inhaler but I respect your CO2 exhalation even if I completely disagree with it. Furthermore blah, blah, and indeed blah. You aren't masquerading that CO2 exhalation is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-air fanatics. Blah.

    And so on.
    I'm just trying to gently point out to him that a large chunk of people in the UK don't cycle because they find the roads dangerous - their freedom of movement has been constrained by motorists.

    Sure, some won't because they are lazy. But we shouldn't let the lazy dictate terms.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    rcs1000 said:

    Yep:

    That transportation part is going to come down too. Ditto buildings are codes are improved and more people use heat pumps.

    It's genuinely all good news. I can really see us halving emissions again, with improving quality of life.

    The threat is to solving our problems is us thinking this is all some kind of emergency that provokes a backlash.

    Almost no problems are solved with revolutions: iteration is all.
    Not exciting enough.

    People do need pushing, there's a place for the really urgent demanding types, but without a clear eye on what has been achieved and is already set to be achieved it can hardly be taken fully seriously.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795

    .

    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    There is no other realistic way of travelling the world than by air, beyond 600 mile trips. Ergo the key is to develop zero carbon flights. The idea that we should stop flying is unrealistic. But, how do we incentivise the development of clean aviation?
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Well. I’ve rediscovered cash after more than a decade. In the Balkans. On holiday.

    My main takeaway? It’s a bloody stupid, time-consuming, expensive ‘system’.

    Who would design a system now that requires the bloke who is selling you goods/service to have change just so you can buy something? Who needs you to visit a cash machine 500 yards plus away? Whose main form of trade can literally be blown away in the sea breeze?

    Fuck this. Human life is and will be better when we can rid ourselves of this antiquated nonsense worldwide.

    Man who fulminates about antiquated nonsense does so from "the Balkans".

    I'd hop on a BEA turboprop and leg it back to blighty, if they accept traveller's cheques at the aerodrome.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,436

    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    It's never going to be a big share on a "percentage of miles basis". It probably isn't even a big share in the Netherlands.

    But it doesn't mean it can't make a difference in urban areas.

    There's a wealth of data here: https://data.london.gov.uk/dataset/travel-patterns-and-trends-london
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,436

    New Thread

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,274
    FF43 said:

    Not at all. Casino could have said the people publicly burning the Koran purely to make others unhappy are wankers. But he didn't.

    Personally I can't think of anything more wankist than what those guys are doing.
    True.

    Mind you, I do wonder how small, tiny and afraid your God has to be, that a bunch of tossers being nasty with an nth generation copy of His Book is even noticeable.
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