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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Westminster Big Three: zen-like serenity or zombies in

SystemSystem Posts: 11,719
edited October 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Westminster Big Three: zen-like serenity or zombies in action?

Time was when you could be reasonably sure that a party struggling in the polls would lead inevitably to speculation about its leader’s position.  The media would talk about it, backbench MPs would talk about it and cabinet or shadow cabinet members would let their friends talk about it.  What is remarkable about the last few years is that despite unprecedented combined unpopularity of both lea…

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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Very good piece David articulating what many are thinking. Could we be about to see a dramatic upheaval in which all the old certainties go?

    I don't know. The three "main" parties are indeed in a terrible state. All 3 phone leaders have negative ratings and yet there is no panic - well not in public at least.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,828
    Excellent analysis as ever Mr Herdson. Meanwhile, in a surprise move, Tony Blair apparently thinks the PM most like himself will prevail:

    Tony Blair: Miliband has failed to connect with voters and is doomed to election defeat
    The former Prime Minister has apparently told long-standing political allies that the under-fire Labour leader 'cannot beat' David Cameron in next year's vote


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11187285/Tony-Blair-Miliband-has-failed-to-connect-with-voters-and-is-doomed-to-election-defeat.html

    And I see Johann Lamont has joined the list of Sindyref casualties (who she? - ed.)
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,828
    The Telegraph's take on Lamont going:

    Ed Miliband’s leadership of the Labour Party was heading for crisis on Friday night after Johann Lamont, the leader of the party in Scotland, sensationally resigned – claiming that he had undermined her.

    Ms Lamont, a mother of two and former teacher, has been Scottish Labour leader for three years, but decided she’d “had enough”, according to colleagues last night after discovering that Mr Miliband had sacked Ian Price, her general secretary, without telling her.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/11187324/Johann-Lamont-to-resign-as-Scottish-Labour-leader.html
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    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    The "threat" from UKIP will disappear (or at least diminish significantly) when the voters realise that it doesn't have the ability to govern or administer day-to-day bread-and-butter issues with viable policies on health, education, housing, whatever. Merely huffing and puffing a load of indignation and resentment about immigration and/or the EU is not enough to get more than 1 or 2 or 3 seats for UKIP in places like Clacton or Boston.

    Even if UKIP stayed on 17% and got 15 MPs - and got the balance of power, and managed to get a referendum on the EU, and got a majority to get out - what then? The group of self-bombastic and grumpy rentagobs comprising the UKIP parliamentary party would then fall apart with petty squabbling and infighting about all of the issues on which they don't all agree - i.e. everything except immigration and the EU.

    So they would all lose their seats next time, voters would return to the two main parties, and "normal" politics would resume.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited October 2014
    JohnLoony said:

    The "threat" from UKIP will disappear (or at least diminish significantly) when the voters realise that it doesn't have the ability to govern or administer day-to-day bread-and-butter issues with viable policies on health, education, housing, whatever. Merely huffing and puffing a load of indignation and resentment about immigration and/or the EU is not enough to get more than 1 or 2 or 3 seats for UKIP in places like Clacton or Boston.

    I'm not so sure. There's so many people at the moment who are so angry with politics that, if anything, the higher stakes in a general election might mean they become even more determined to "give them a kicking" by voting UKIP so that they actually pay attention.
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    shiney2shiney2 Posts: 672
    "Should Labour regain government, the danger may be even worse, polling as it is in the low thirties with the support of a great many 2010 Lib Dem defectors. A majority Ed Miliband-led government could easily leak that support straight back on one wing while being assailed by UKIP on the other. "

    This looks to me to be perhaps the likeliest 2015 outcome. There is a fair chance Milipede would then drive Labour off an electoral cliff as he attempts the impossible : 5y of deficit reduction by the Labour Party.

    Some years ago there was another fine DavidH threader on the electoral consequences of CON/LAB/BNP/LIB 25/25/25/25. Different principle actors in 2020 of course but similar chaotic outcomes look possible.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,157
    Lab and Con are doing fine. They're both comfortably over 30%, which is quite a decent achievement.

    What was exceptional was the post-war period when a lot of the time the combination of FPTP and top-down media made it hard for other parties to get traction. That's gone, and it's hard to see FPTP lasting since it will create some deeply bonkers outcomes, although it's also not obvious what the exact mechanism will be to get rid of it...
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    A good early one for the little grey cells from David.Farage and Salmond have been highly skilled in putting wedges into the 2 party system,already weakened by Con-Lib coalition,thus turbo-boosting what was a steady erosion over a period of time in the trend away from Con-Lab dominance to an approaching election which could result in some sort of agreement between 3,4,5 or more other parties.Con and Lab have always been internal coalitions of different interests and perspectives and these internal coalitions are clearly creaking,more obviously in the Tory party with Farage knowing which buttons to press in the Tory psyche to achieve maximum disunity and destruction and Salmond able to do the same to Labour in Scotland.The question of which internal coalition,Lab or Con, cracks first leading to a split, depends on the result of GE2015 but both look vulnerable in time to breaking apart.UK politics is fragmenting fast and the 3 party leaders look like wide-eyed bystanders.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,115
    While I don’t entirely agree with E-i-T that "Lab and Con are doing fine”, I think that, given the overall polling situation, the party tacticians think they are doing enough to win in May. Not the strategists, if there are any, because, if they do exist, they’re looking, or ought to be looking, further forward. And the attitude seems to be that when we win in May there’ll be a land of milk and honey.On both sides!
    There was Labour broadcast on C4 the other day where a Labour candidate was saying in effect “what a nice person I am, I’ll protect the NHS & childcare”! And that may be OK for a candidate in the very short-term, but where’s the long term thinking? The Tories seem to be in a position of saying "we’ll have a referendum in 2017, and after that we’ll see!"

    As for LD’s, I agree, it’s amazing. Again, I’ve commented before that it’s like a slow-motion Charge of the Light Brigade; “stormed at with shot and shell, while horse and hero fell, onward they thundered”! At least they’ve stuck to their Green agenda and the big rows seem to have been over "thought police" issues.
    Someone in their inner circle needs to pull a rabbit out of their hat.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited October 2014

    There was Labour broadcast on C4 the other day where a Labour candidate was saying in effect “what a nice person I am, I’ll protect the NHS & childcare”! And that may be OK for a candidate in the very short-term, but where’s the long term thinking?

    What's really going to happen here if there is a LAB government, especially with a smallish majority ? Are they going to stick to the current Balls plan and continue the cuts, and implode from bickering and infighting, or are they going to sack Balls (assuming he holds his seat) and put in some Healeyite chancellor that puts up taxes enormously, drives businesses and entrepreneurs offshore, gets a huge scare from the bond markets, and then calls in the IMF ?
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    audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    The three main parties think UKIP will poll <15% in a General Election, and I think they're right. If true then apart from them taking a slice of the vote share pie they won't win many MPs. It's nothing to do with being zen or zombie like. It's because they assume UKIP will fade when people come to the real thing. Again, I'm sure they're right.

    So, really, the main parties aren't doing 'badly.' Under our system there's no real moral reason why a party cannot govern the country on 35%, and there certainly isn't an electoral one.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    It depends how angry you think people are.

    If people are just a bit miffed with the two main parties then it makes sense that people come out and register a protest in by-elections and council seats, and then fade back to the main parties at the GE.

    If on the other hand you think people are just plumb dog mad and sick to the back teeth with the bullshit being spread by the main parties, or worse, think that the main parties no longer represent their views, the opposite is true, they would probably think that sending messages in the locals and by-elections is pointless because the main parties just tell you they are "listening" and then carry on as if nothing happened. In this case you would expect people to turn out more at the GE to change things, rather than just sending messages.

    I think the whole idea of "sending messages" in the locals and by-elections is rapidly approaching its sell-by date, people are starting to realise that they can send all the messages they want, but no one is taking those messages seriously.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Plato said:
    (n fact things are worse, for there have been instances when a hospital reduced services the very well paid chair and leaders of the relevant health board refused to attend a public meeting saying in effect it was nothing to do with the public.
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    I think the sea-change is even greater than David Herdson (thanks for yet another excellent op-ed piece, David) thinks it is. David is still happy to talk of the "spectrum" which, if it means anything, means Parties divided by their identification with economic interests (traditionally, Tories backed by Big Business and Labour by Trade Unions).

    The problem with this approach is that to-day half the electorate are right-wing, a third identify with neither left nor right and only one in six are left of centre in the sense politicians of a generation ago would have understood the term.

    This is because the precondition for parties divided by economic interests is ethnic homogeneity. And this we no longer have, nor are we going to recover it any time soon - voting to leave the EU will make people feel better for a week-end and then they will notice that none of the "immigrants" have gone "home".

    The typical white voter in the shires is a (more or less) vicious racist - and, for the avoidance of doubt, I would no more live in shire England than I would poke out my eyes with a sharp stick. It is racism which will provide the motor of political division in England henceforward.
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Indigo

    'and put in some Healeyite chancellor that puts up taxes enormously, drives businesses and entrepreneurs offshore, gets a huge scare from the bond markets, and then calls in the IMF ?'

    Every indication so far is that it will be back to the 70's with Ed, so a Healey style Chancellor will be par for the course.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited October 2014

    The three main parties think UKIP will poll <15% in a General Election, and I think they're right. If true then apart from them taking a slice of the vote share pie they won't win many MPs. It's nothing to do with being zen or zombie like. It's because they assume UKIP will fade when people come to the real thing. Again, I'm sure they're right.

    So, really, the main parties aren't doing 'badly.' Under our system there's no real moral reason why a party cannot govern the country on 35%, and there certainly isn't an electoral one.</p>

    UKIP were supposed to fizzle after the EU Parliament elections in May. Its now October, and UKIP are getting best ever levels of support in the polls.

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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    The typical white voter in the shires is a (more or less) vicious racist - and, for the avoidance of doubt, I would no more live in shire England than I would poke out my eyes with a sharp stick. It is racism which will provide the motor of political division in England henceforward.

    I am not sure I have ever read such a disgraceful post on PB, I suggest you reconsider it.

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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Innocent_Abroad

    'The typical white voter in the shires is a (more or less) vicious racist'

    Evidence or you just enjoy smearing millions of voters?
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,352
    Innocent,

    An interesting take.

    Many people prefer like-minded people and that is the racism which you dislike. It is also the racism you espouse .... " I would no more live in shire England than I would poke out my eyes with a sharp stick."

    In Lincolnshire, the newcomers are white and Christian but they talk a foreign language, Hence some animosity (although the reasons are also competition for jobs, housing, schools and GP services),

    These shire people .... they be furriners.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    JohnLoony said:

    The "threat" from UKIP will disappear (or at least diminish significantly) when the voters realise that it doesn't have the ability to govern or administer day-to-day bread-and-butter issues with viable policies on health, education, housing, whatever. Merely huffing and puffing a load of indignation and resentment about immigration and/or the EU is not enough to get more than 1 or 2 or 3 seats for UKIP in places like Clacton or Boston.

    Even if UKIP stayed on 17% and got 15 MPs - and got the balance of power, and managed to get a referendum on the EU, and got a majority to get out - what then? The group of self-bombastic and grumpy rentagobs comprising the UKIP parliamentary party would then fall apart with petty squabbling and infighting about all of the issues on which they don't all agree - i.e. everything except immigration and the EU.

    So they would all lose their seats next time, voters would return to the two main parties, and "normal" politics would resume.

    As I understand it, the idea of an election manifesto full of polices for government is quite a new one. Parties used to present voters with a general 'this is what I believe' document, setting out their attitude, rather than a detailed plan for governing the country.

    UKIP certainly might fail in the future, or they might find new strength. Who knows?
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    JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548



    My stereo-The-typical white voter in the shires is a (more or less) vicious racist

    Fixed
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    Indigo said:

    The typical white voter in the shires is a (more or less) vicious racist - and, for the avoidance of doubt, I would no more live in shire England than I would poke out my eyes with a sharp stick. It is racism which will provide the motor of political division in England henceforward.

    I am not sure I have ever read such a disgraceful post on PB, I suggest you reconsider it.

    I am surprised that it took as long as it did for someone to respond in those terms. Let me clarify: racism is the natural, normal condition for human beings. It arises from Fear of the Other and is a natural consequence of the workings of the brain. It is only in metropolitan areas that this fear is overcome and to that extent all large cities are morally superior to suburbs and rural areas (just as they are more stressful).

    If I were to say that in order to be racist it is first necessary to be white, you would have a point, Indigo. But I am hardly likely to say that. I am white myself.

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    AJKAJK Posts: 20

    Lab and Con are doing fine. They're both comfortably over 30%, which is quite a decent achievement.

    What was exceptional was the post-war period when a lot of the time the combination of FPTP and top-down media made it hard for other parties to get traction. That's gone, and it's hard to see FPTP lasting since it will create some deeply bonkers outcomes, although it's also not obvious what the exact mechanism will be to get rid of it...

    I think that's right. As David mentioned last week, the Tories (and Labour if they are clever enough) need to introduce PR. FPTP and multi-Party politics equals bad governance and warped democracy. Whichever of the big Parties goes for it first will call the shots for ten years I think.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,352
    Innocent,

    Apologies. I've just realised you were being sarcastic to make your point. Indeed, hypocrisy is the mark of the Elite.
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,342
    A related question: will FPTP survive beyoond the next election? Surely it will be untenable in a 4 major party system. The chances of a highly disproportionate outcome in 2015 is very high, e.g. Labour being outpolled by the Tories but getting a majority and/or UKIP getting far more votes than the LibDems but fewer seats. In such a scenario the Right may suddenly discover an appetite for electoral reform.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    DH, thank you yet again for a thought provoking piece but you have just touched the tip of the iceberg.

    @Indigo: "It depends how angry you think people are. "

    People are not just angry but are contemptuous of politicians, not just at Westminster but at all levels and especially at council level.

    At Westminster they blame politicians for allowing the UK to get into this economic/immigration/housing/employment/benefits/EU/ECHR mess and not being able to solve those problems. They are fed up with finding out about the lies of Blair and of others coming to light and the gross inefficiency resulting from the collusion of MPs, AMs etc with the civil services in hiding errors and mistakes and the sheer waste of money.

    At council level, they are fed up with being treated with contempt by self-serving councillors and council staff. When budgets are cut, then always the first reaction is to cut services whilst at the same time protecting better salaries and pensions than most of the council tax payers can ever dream about. They are tired of being fined for putting rubbish in the wrong bin or out on the wrong day, being fined for taking children on a term-time holiday etc. At the same time councils seem to be so thick from the neck up that they are unable to think of ways of do things better and more economically.

    At police level they are tired of police doing the easy stuff like speeding and avoiding the difficult stuff like sorting out the crime-ridden areas and the drug barons and child grooming gangs.

    They are even more appalled at the collusion of councils and police in not executing the law fairly among all people but for political reasons have ignored criminal activity by sectors of the population.

    Health care is over-managed by the wrong people and is failing due to this policy. Our education standards continue to decline on a global level with the potential for serious unemployment in the decades to come. Energy has been ignored for decades but is more costly due to Green theory.

    In fact it has now come down to the public sector versus the population as often seen in totalitarian or communist regimes. If you belong to the favoured sector you will be looked after, if not ....

    Most of our politicians are clueless about how to improve matters and much policy is driven by idealists but not practicalists. The people are fed up and want solutions and will follow those who offer realistic solutions.

    Remember both Hitler and Mussolini brought in effective solutions and made people's lives better for a time - they just stayed in power too long.


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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,023


    The typical white voter in the shires is a (more or less) vicious racist - and, for the avoidance of doubt, I would no more live in shire England than I would poke out my eyes with a sharp stick. It is racism which will provide the motor of political division in England henceforward.

    Err, you what - is that a spoof or a quote or ??!

    Have I read this out of all context ?
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    MPs are apparently not concerned about UKIP.

    "We asked a representative cross-section of 100 MPs about Ukip’s chances in 2015, and the response suggests talk of petrified Members running scared of the purple army is pretty wide of the mark. Just 5% of MPs think Ukip will pick up more than five seats, while more than two thirds believe Farage’s party will pick up just two or fewer."

    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/107021/the_knowledge_are_mps_running_scared_of_ukip?_.html

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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited October 2014


    If I were to say that in order to be racist it is first necessary to be white, you would have a point, Indigo. But I am hardly likely to say that. I am white myself.

    Fair enough. Although I think the point you make should be generalised. Partly because I think the issue is far more culture than it is race. Some cultures rub along with "shire" culture with hardly a ripple, others clash glaringly. I really think most people even in the shires could care less what color someone skin is, what they find hard to deal with is something forcing a change in the way of life which previously might have been unchanged for most of their life. I speak here as a white male Tory that lives in the shires married to an Asia immigrant, and currently doing charitable work in a third world country ;-)

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,023
    edited October 2014

    While more than two thirds believe Farage’s party will pick up just two or fewer.

    Just 5% of MPs think Ukip will pick up more than five seats

    Bookie seat odds are currently at +/-5.5, and Boston and Clacton are absolute shoo-ins.
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    The Tories have a leader who is a relative asset. Labour has a millstone. The news from Scotland once again emphasises just how much of a disaster he is. But while Labour people might grumble in private about Ed - and they do (Blair is only saying what most believe) - they will not depose him. The LDs are too far gone for anything they do to make a difference.

    The Tories and Labour no doubt assume that UKIP will fall back at some stage. They are probably right, to an extent. FPTP is the big two's saving grace. Never mind the harm it does to the country.

    No party, including UKIP, has any credible answers to the stagnating or falling living standards so many people across the UK are experiencing. For the moment that means disengagement and disillusion. At some stage, though, it will turn to real anger.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Financier said:

    Plato said:
    (n fact things are worse, for there have been instances when a hospital reduced services the very well paid chair and leaders of the relevant health board refused to attend a public meeting saying in effect it was nothing to do with the public.
    When religions start losing touch with their followers they are in trouble.

    Last days of the Raj at the top of the public sector.
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    Pulpstar said:


    The typical white voter in the shires is a (more or less) vicious racist - and, for the avoidance of doubt, I would no more live in shire England than I would poke out my eyes with a sharp stick. It is racism which will provide the motor of political division in England henceforward.

    Err, you what - is that a spoof or a quote or ??!

    Have I read this out of all context ?
    Perhaps I should have left the word "white" out of that sentence. My underlying point is that just because I - or you, or any other Peebie - has a particular attribute, that attribute is therefore justified.

    Another example would be sexuality. Heterosexuality is (almost certainly) necessary to the survival of the human race. It also means that there is a good deal more violence endured by women than there would be if the sexes kept to themselves, and homosexuality were the normal, or indeed only legal sexual orientation. It is impossible to believe in cute little grandchildren without also in the same breath giving tacit approval to violence against women.

    Most of us, faced with these dilemmas, throw away logic and rely instead on the comfort of "common sense" (a.k.a. my prejudices are better than yours, so there!).

    Do any of us think that any of our political parties would last five minutes if voters behaved in an adult fashion?

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    JohnLoony said:

    The "threat" from UKIP will disappear (or at least diminish significantly) when the voters realise that it doesn't have the ability to govern or administer day-to-day bread-and-butter issues with viable policies on health, education, housing, whatever. Merely huffing and puffing a load of indignation and resentment about immigration and/or the EU is not enough to get more than 1 or 2 or 3 seats for UKIP in places like Clacton or Boston.

    Even if UKIP stayed on 17% and got 15 MPs - and got the balance of power, and managed to get a referendum on the EU, and got a majority to get out - what then? The group of self-bombastic and grumpy rentagobs comprising the UKIP parliamentary party would then fall apart with petty squabbling and infighting about all of the issues on which they don't all agree - i.e. everything except immigration and the EU.

    So they would all lose their seats next time, voters would return to the two main parties, and "normal" politics would resume.

    Ukip of course have terrible polling numbers in terms of most extreme and nasty ratings - may yet be their undoing in 2015.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    TGOHF said:

    Ukip of course have terrible polling numbers in terms of most extreme and nasty ratings - may yet be their undoing in 2015.

    Possibly.

    However the Tory's didn't lose last time because of any perception of "nastiness" they lost because they no-longer seemed competent. I think the man in the street is actually prepared to put up with quite a lot of "nastiness" and when in the secrecy of the polling booth even a certain amount of "extremism" if he or she thinks they are going to get someone that does something about the things that are important to them.
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    TGOHF said:

    Financier said:

    Plato said:
    (n fact things are worse, for there have been instances when a hospital reduced services the very well paid chair and leaders of the relevant health board refused to attend a public meeting saying in effect it was nothing to do with the public.
    When religions start losing touch with their followers they are in trouble.

    Last days of the Raj at the top of the public sector.

    Meanwhile CEOs at big public companies now earn hundreds times more than their staff. For what? Believe me, that makes people furious too. It used to be 20 or 30 times more. What's changed? Well, productivity is down, we are exporting less and investing less in R&D and training. Best reward the men, for it is largely men, who have overseen this "triumph".

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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,352
    edited October 2014
    Innocent,

    You can extend this to our International views. We know how civilised people behave - it's what we do. We are also against groups like ISIL who wish to force their abhorrent views on others, and against "Imperialism" where the "superior" nations colonised others and made them behave in a different way.

    Yet we will condemn the way other nations run their affairs. Russia is homophobic, Pakistan is corrupt, Iran is misogynist. The West is the keeper of the true faith and no other can be accepted. ISIL believe we are corrupt and as they know best (as we do), we must be forced to accept their version. Don't they know that only the West really knows what real morality is?
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966


    Meanwhile CEOs at big public companies now earn hundreds times more than their staff. For what? Believe me, that makes people furious too. It used to be 20 or 30 times more. What's changed? Well, productivity is down, we are exporting less and investing less in R&D and training. Best reward the men, for it is largely men, who have overseen this "triumph".

    What's the solution, its one of the joys of globalisation. If you start to limit the earnings of top people they will just relocate somewhere else, they are the most mobile people in the world. They also can usually pay for more and better lawyers than the government can. If you limited executive pay to say 20x the average pay, most of your large corporations would be unable to recruit world class leaders, they struggle now because most of them would rather live in the US than here for various reasons. Those companies would be less competitive than their overseas alternatives, and would wither, then the self same people would complain about redundancies and lack of revenues here.

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    EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Good morning all and the usual good offering from David.

    Wonderful news that Johann frae Pollock has grown a pair, resigned and blasted Ed Milibland in the Daily Record, the Scottish Labour Party's daily comic book. The SNP will be laughing all the way to the ballot box in West, Central Scotland.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,737

    The three main parties think UKIP will poll <15% in a General Election, and I think they're right. If true then apart from them taking a slice of the vote share pie they won't win many MPs. It's nothing to do with being zen or zombie like. It's because they assume UKIP will fade when people come to the real thing. Again, I'm sure they're right.

    So, really, the main parties aren't doing 'badly.' Under our system there's no real moral reason why a party cannot govern the country on 35%, and there certainly isn't an electoral one.</p>

    Do you really believe "Under our system there's no real moral reason why a party cannot govern the country on 35%"?
    So it's OK to ignore 65% of the electorate. At what percentage does it become immoral to govern, 25%, 20%? I'm assuming that you would be against a dictatorship so there must be a low percentage value and which it becomes immoral. You usually make reasoned arguments, so I'm looking forward to your answer to this.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125

    The Tories have a leader who is a relative asset. Labour has a millstone. The news from Scotland once again emphasises just how much of a disaster he is. But while Labour people might grumble in private about Ed - and they do (Blair is only saying what most believe) - they will not depose him. The LDs are too far gone for anything they do to make a difference.

    The Tories and Labour no doubt assume that UKIP will fall back at some stage. They are probably right, to an extent. FPTP is the big two's saving grace. Never mind the harm it does to the country.

    No party, including UKIP, has any credible answers to the stagnating or falling living standards so many people across the UK are experiencing. For the moment that means disengagement and disillusion. At some stage, though, it will turn to real anger.

    I mostly agree but I feel more angry at the failure of all politicians to tell the truth - that we've lived on tick for years and it has to stop. I'm also angry that most of the public will reject that truth if any politician has the guts to say it! There simply is no rule or law that says we have a right to live on unlimited credit from people largely poorer than ourselves. It's the case here and in Europe.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,448
    Plato said:
    I couldn't help but notice that the front pages of today's Mail and Express both have prominent purple and yellow sections. Now, this may be a coincidence - both areas in those colours are to do with promotions - but it may not. Both front pages also lead on the EU contribution story too.

    I have speculated in the past about whether any paper(s) will endorse UKIP and if so, which and when. While such endorsements usually carry little weight of their own, they do matter in terms of editorial policy about which stories are covered and how, and in UKIP's case, it would also matter because a first endorsement would be another step on the road to major party status; it would provide credibility with the rest of the media (more so were that endorsement to come from the Mail than the Express, it has to be said). The converse is also true, if they can't pick up an endorsement, it'll act as a drag on how the rest of the media see them.
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    Indigo said:


    Meanwhile CEOs at big public companies now earn hundreds times more than their staff. For what? Believe me, that makes people furious too. It used to be 20 or 30 times more. What's changed? Well, productivity is down, we are exporting less and investing less in R&D and training. Best reward the men, for it is largely men, who have overseen this "triumph".

    What's the solution, its one of the joys of globalisation. If you start to limit the earnings of top people they will just relocate somewhere else, they are the most mobile people in the world. They also can usually pay for more and better lawyers than the government can. If you limited executive pay to say 20x the average pay, most of your large corporations would be unable to recruit world class leaders, they struggle now because most of them would rather live in the US than here for various reasons. Those companies would be less competitive than their overseas alternatives, and would wither, then the self same people would complain about redundancies and lack of revenues here.

    Ok, fine, let them leave, but confiscate 80% of any assets or cash worth more than £200,000 they take with them with an exit tax.
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    CD13 said:

    Innocent,

    You can extend this to our International views. We know how civilised people behave - it's what we do. We are also against groups like ISIL who wish to force their abhorrent views on others, and against "Imperialism" where the "superior" nations colonised others and made them behave in a different way.

    Yet we will condemn the way other nations run their affairs. Russia is homophobic, Pakistan is corrupt, Iran is misogynist. The West is the keeper of the true faith and no other can be accepted. ISIL believe we are corrupt and as they know best (as we do), we must be forced to accept their version. Don't they know that only the West really knows what real morality is?

    I can and I do.

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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,448
    Financier said:

    DH, thank you yet again for a thought provoking piece but you have just touched the tip of the iceberg.

    @Indigo: "It depends how angry you think people are. "

    People are not just angry but are contemptuous of politicians, not just at Westminster but at all levels and especially at council level.

    At Westminster they blame politicians for allowing the UK to get into this economic/immigration/housing/employment/benefits/EU/ECHR mess and not being able to solve those problems. They are fed up with finding out about the lies of Blair and of others coming to light and the gross inefficiency resulting from the collusion of MPs, AMs etc with the civil services in hiding errors and mistakes and the sheer waste of money.

    At council level, they are fed up with being treated with contempt by self-serving councillors and council staff. When budgets are cut, then always the first reaction is to cut services whilst at the same time protecting better salaries and pensions than most of the council tax payers can ever dream about. They are tired of being fined for putting rubbish in the wrong bin or out on the wrong day, being fined for taking children on a term-time holiday etc. At the same time councils seem to be so thick from the neck up that they are unable to think of ways of do things better and more economically.

    At police level they are tired of police doing the easy stuff like speeding and avoiding the difficult stuff like sorting out the crime-ridden areas and the drug barons and child grooming gangs.

    They are even more appalled at the collusion of councils and police in not executing the law fairly among all people but for political reasons have ignored criminal activity by sectors of the population.

    Health care is over-managed by the wrong people and is failing due to this policy. Our education standards continue to decline on a global level with the potential for serious unemployment in the decades to come. Energy has been ignored for decades but is more costly due to Green theory.

    In fact it has now come down to the public sector versus the population as often seen in totalitarian or communist regimes. If you belong to the favoured sector you will be looked after, if not ....

    Most of our politicians are clueless about how to improve matters and much policy is driven by idealists but not practicalists. The people are fed up and want solutions and will follow those who offer realistic solutions.

    Remember both Hitler and Mussolini brought in effective solutions and made people's lives better for a time - they just stayed in power too long.

    That's a superb post. The only thing I'd add is that I deliberately try to leave aspects of the topic untouched in the leader, partly for reasons of space but also so it can act as a springboard for discussion.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Pulpstar said:

    While more than two thirds believe Farage’s party will pick up just two or fewer.

    Just 5% of MPs think Ukip will pick up more than five seats

    Bookie seat odds are currently at +/-5.5, and Boston and Clacton are absolute shoo-ins.
    Neil Hamilton has apparently applied to be UKIP candidate for Boston. The candidate could yet mess that one up.
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    The establishment project was to shape politics into a democracy where all the viable choices serve their agenda. Their problem is that they succeeded - now that the wheels have come off the economy and (in some perceptions) society people look angrily at the entire political class and brand them all the same. The UKIP voters I've spoken to on the doorstep are Howard Beale on Network -"I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore".

    Yes its a protest vote, but not against the Tories for being too soft on Yerp, or on Labour for ignoring the WWC. Its against all of us for following the same agenda. What is that agenda? Globalisation and immigration to suppress wages and make people poorer, removing real democracy to leave a veneer where there's choice all saying the same, turning society into something uncomfortable, spending oceans of cash running up vast debts yet leaving services smashed and people feeling poorer.

    Its not Farage or UKIP policies they are voting for. Its that Farage highlights all they are angry about so they will vote for him as the only one who gets it. Their lack of effective policies isn't an issue - they think the rest of us don't have effective policies either.

    I hope this is the last election we will fight under FPTP. I expect Labour to have a working majority next May, and won't be at all surprised if we achieve this on 32% of the vote. I want us in power, but its not democracy. Nor were the Blair and Thatcher landslides, Major receiving the highest ever popular vote and a small majority etc etc. Now that we truly have a multiparty system where punters have finally woken up to the subversion of democracy, its time for a voting system fit for purpose. And if that means an end to governments with large majorities then so be it. People only hate coalitions because the LibDems crossed the floor. Have a couple ofarties on left and right and this problem goes away.
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    Swiss_BobSwiss_Bob Posts: 619
    They'll only wake up when the GE15 results roll in.

    Cons 25-30%
    Lab 25-30%
    UKIP 20-25%
    Greens 8-10%
    Libdems 6-8%

    Is my current prediction. Most likely a Con maj. Govt.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,448

    The three main parties think UKIP will poll <15% in a General Election, and I think they're right. If true then apart from them taking a slice of the vote share pie they won't win many MPs. It's nothing to do with being zen or zombie like. It's because they assume UKIP will fade when people come to the real thing. Again, I'm sure they're right.

    So, really, the main parties aren't doing 'badly.' Under our system there's no real moral reason why a party cannot govern the country on 35%, and there certainly isn't an electoral one.</p>

    There's only no electoral one because of the way that first the two- and then the three-party systems broke down. Up to an including Blair's first term, it was normal for parties to win with a score in the low forties. That might not be a majority but represented the support of three in seven voters and with a turnout of about 70%, three in ten of the electorate. If parties are winning on the sort of low-thirties scores now being polled, they have just three in nine votes cast and on the more recent 60% turnouts, two in ten of the electorate. I'm not convinced that is a moral mandate to govern.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Plato said:
    Some pretty damning stories, but it does show the cost of healthcare. Many of the stories are for operations costing 5 figures or expensive chemotherapy, which people expect to get for free. If they are to get free treatment then someone else will have to pay.

    I think Wales also is finding recruitment difficult, hence vacant posts for doctors and nurses. It is not just about money, it is about being able to do a decent job that allows self respect.

    But UKIP is going to save the NHS apparently, nothing to worry about...
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,737
    Swiss_Bob said:

    They'll only wake up when the GE15 results roll in.

    Cons 25-30%
    Lab 25-30%
    UKIP 20-25%
    Greens 8-10%
    Libdems 6-8%

    Is my current prediction. Most likely a Con maj. Govt.

    Looks like wishful thinking. Have you plugged those figures in to any prediction sites. Tory majority government on 25 to 30%, looks innumerate.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,448
    JohnLoony said:

    The "threat" from UKIP will disappear (or at least diminish significantly) when the voters realise that it doesn't have the ability to govern or administer day-to-day bread-and-butter issues with viable policies on health, education, housing, whatever. Merely huffing and puffing a load of indignation and resentment about immigration and/or the EU is not enough to get more than 1 or 2 or 3 seats for UKIP in places like Clacton or Boston.

    Even if UKIP stayed on 17% and got 15 MPs - and got the balance of power, and managed to get a referendum on the EU, and got a majority to get out - what then? The group of self-bombastic and grumpy rentagobs comprising the UKIP parliamentary party would then fall apart with petty squabbling and infighting about all of the issues on which they don't all agree - i.e. everything except immigration and the EU.

    So they would all lose their seats next time, voters would return to the two main parties, and "normal" politics would resume.

    Yes, things may go back to "normal"; that's certainly one possible scenario as you sketch out, but as Financier rightly identifies, this is far more than an issue with one leader or the other (or with three); it's about a breakdown of trust between a great part of the electorate and both the political class at all levels, and a faceless and unresponsive public sector that the political class is supposed to run in the interests of the people of the country.

    If UKIP do blow their chance - and there's every possibility that a new and untried party will make the gaffes that lead them to do so - that won't take away the resentment and disillusionment; it just means it will need a different outlet.
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    The three main parties think UKIP will poll <15% in a General Election, and I think they're right. If true then apart from them taking a slice of the vote share pie they won't win many MPs. It's nothing to do with being zen or zombie like. It's because they assume UKIP will fade when people come to the real thing. Again, I'm sure they're right.

    So, really, the main parties aren't doing 'badly.' Under our system there's no real moral reason why a party cannot govern the country on 35%, and there certainly isn't an electoral one.</p>

    There's only no electoral one because of the way that first the two- and then the three-party systems broke down. Up to an including Blair's first term, it was normal for parties to win with a score in the low forties. That might not be a majority but represented the support of three in seven voters and with a turnout of about 70%, three in ten of the electorate. If parties are winning on the sort of low-thirties scores now being polled, they have just three in nine votes cast and on the more recent 60% turnouts, two in ten of the electorate. I'm not convinced that is a moral mandate to govern.
    What's a fair taxation system? One in which taxes are paid by other people.

    As was noted earlier, the super-rich already have this. The rest of us are merely consumed with envy.

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    Swiss_BobSwiss_Bob Posts: 619

    Swiss_Bob said:

    They'll only wake up when the GE15 results roll in.

    Cons 25-30%
    Lab 25-30%
    UKIP 20-25%
    Greens 8-10%
    Libdems 6-8%

    Is my current prediction. Most likely a Con maj. Govt.

    Looks like wishful thinking. Have you plugged those figures in to any prediction sites. Tory majority government on 25 to 30%, looks innumerate.
    Apologies, I meant majority partner in a coalition.
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    Indigo said:


    Meanwhile CEOs at big public companies now earn hundreds times more than their staff. For what? Believe me, that makes people furious too. It used to be 20 or 30 times more. What's changed? Well, productivity is down, we are exporting less and investing less in R&D and training. Best reward the men, for it is largely men, who have overseen this "triumph".

    What's the solution, its one of the joys of globalisation. If you start to limit the earnings of top people they will just relocate somewhere else, they are the most mobile people in the world. They also can usually pay for more and better lawyers than the government can. If you limited executive pay to say 20x the average pay, most of your large corporations would be unable to recruit world class leaders, they struggle now because most of them would rather live in the US than here for various reasons. Those companies would be less competitive than their overseas alternatives, and would wither, then the self same people would complain about redundancies and lack of revenues here.

    Their performance indicates they are not top people. They are people who are good (or not) at managing big organisations. They do not start things, they do not build things, they do not create things; they manage things. It's a skill, but not one that is irreplaceable. What they are, though, is a set that has been able to play the game and get on the gravy train - just like any senior public servant.

    The real wealth creators - the entrepreneurs, the inventors, the innovators - are the people we should be focusing on relentlessly, incentivising and rewarding. They deserve everything they get.

    Can it change? Yes. Will it? Probably not for a long time. But make no mistake, the anger at what people see and experience is growing. My main point being it's not just overpaid civil servants that get people's goat. It's an overpaid, over-protected elite full stop. And that includes private sector leaders on multi-million pound packages just as much as it does the CEOs of county councils earning £200,000 a year.

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Johann's Lamont resignation is potentially big. This is dynamite under Labour in Scotland and the union itself, confirming the SNP's whole narrative. It is dynamite under Ed Miliband, adding to concerns about his leadership.

    If Labour did coups, this would be Betsygate. Of course, they don't.
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    Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited October 2014
    john_zims said:

    @Innocent_Abroad

    'The typical white voter in the shires is a (more or less) vicious racist'

    Evidence or you just enjoy smearing millions of voters?

    By metropolitan standards they are because anyone who wants to live with people who they share values with is racist, becuse ultimately the left wing metropolitan elite despise British values, especially Christianity, and have found race a useful tool to further the destroying of these values, following the Gramascian model.

    However by any reasonable definition people in the shires are in the vast majority not racist. They don't care what colour you are, even if you were purple, as long as you don't set out to force a different culture down their throat.

    It is not racist to want to associate with people who share your values and not want to associate with people who do not share your values.

    It is racist to not want to associate with people who do share your values but are a different colour.

    We have had immigrants for centuries, many eastenders are part african heritage as a significant black population in East London in Elizabethan times vanished due to integration and intermarrying.

    What is new, is that the left encouraged recent immigrants to define themselves by the differences in their culture and fostered a sense of greviance as part of a Gramascian plan to undermine western Christian culture and foster the chaos in society needed for "the revolution".

    Actually, many of the commonwealth immigrants share the British values of the shires (one reason they came here in the first place) and not an insignificant number will be voting UKIP and I well recall the support from people of other faiths when Loony Lambeth Council unsuccessfully tried to ban the public crib on Streatham Common in the 1980s on the grounds it was offensive to non Christians (in reality it was only offensive to Lambeth councillors atheist values).
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,448

    I think the sea-change is even greater than David Herdson (thanks for yet another excellent op-ed piece, David) thinks it is. David is still happy to talk of the "spectrum" which, if it means anything, means Parties divided by their identification with economic interests (traditionally, Tories backed by Big Business and Labour by Trade Unions).

    ...

    I deliberately used the word spectrum loosely, not least because the divisions between them are themselves fluid.

    Arguably the biggest division at the moment, and the one driving UKIP's rise is on social factors, with Con, Lab and LD all being socially liberal to a greater or lesser extent, and UKIP being socially conservative.

    As both the Tories and Labour have socially conservative wings, what this means is that UKIP can tailor their economic policies to target whichever major party looks the weaker without affecting their core messages, which remain Europe and social conservatism, both of which cut across economic divisions. At the moment, they're playing it both ways, which is a dangerous game as it inevitably produces contradictions, but as with the Lib Dems in the past, that doesn't matter unless you're the one left holding the parcel when the music stops - and they won't be this time.
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    beast_in_blackbeast_in_black Posts: 28
    edited October 2014
    If Labour got a majority with a tiny % of the electorate support our constitution would be in a bigger moral crisis than it is at the moment. Their fitness for governance and mandate would not be recognised.

    If UKIP eventually achieve their ultimate goals (directly or indirectly) they wont have any reason to exist anyway. And I don't think they would really care.

    But anyway, personally, I think the ultimate aim of Mr Farage is to do a 'Canada'. It would benefit UKIP (and the Greens) the most if Milliband got into government and became incredibly unpopular, more than he is at the moment.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,057

    The Telegraph's take on Lamont going:

    Ed Miliband’s leadership of the Labour Party was heading for crisis on Friday night after Johann Lamont, the leader of the party in Scotland, sensationally resigned – claiming that he had undermined her.

    Ms Lamont, a mother of two and former teacher, has been Scottish Labour leader for three years, but decided she’d “had enough”, according to colleagues last night after discovering that Mr Miliband had sacked Ian Price, her general secretary, without telling her.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/11187324/Johann-Lamont-to-resign-as-Scottish-Labour-leader.html

    And here's Wings over Scotland's rather apt comment:

    "You read that right, folks – Johann’s quitting her job because she doesn’t want her affairs being run by London. If only there’d recently been some sort of way of putting a guaranteed and permanent stop to that, eh?"

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/you-just-cant-make-this-stuff-up/#more-62550

    Only a month, too, since she was telling the Record that no way was she quitting, but instead would be next First Minister, as Wings points out.

    Wonder who'll get the position now? I just can't guess with any reliability, but one point is that all Scottish MPs as well as MSPs and members etc are supposedly under the authority of the leader of the Scottish Labour Party (which doesn't really exist, it seems, but never mind). What I'm not clear about is whether there is any actual requirement for the leader of the Labour contingent in the Scottish Parliament and the SLAB leader to be one and the same. That is going to be important if for instance a certain MP were to be parachuted in without the minor detail of a MSP seat.
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    FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    CD13 said:

    Innocent,

    You can extend this to our International views. We know how civilised people behave - it's what we do. We are also against groups like ISIL who wish to force their abhorrent views on others, and against "Imperialism" where the "superior" nations colonised others and made them behave in a different way.

    Yet we will condemn the way other nations run their affairs. Russia is homophobic, Pakistan is corrupt, Iran is misogynist. The West is the keeper of the true faith and no other can be accepted. ISIL believe we are corrupt and as they know best (as we do), we must be forced to accept their version. Don't they know that only the West really knows what real morality is?

    We used to be told to hate Russia because they are Marxist, now we are told to hate them because they are insufficiently cultural Marxist. All the while the number of dead rises in Donbass.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,737
    Opinion Poll

    Tory: 23%
    Labour: 23.5%
    Third Party 50.5%

    No, not UKIP of course, the Lib/SDP Alliance, Gallup, Dec '81.
    We've been here before, only more so.
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    If Labour got a majority with a tiny % of the electorate support our constitution would be in a bigger moral crisis than it is at the moment. Their fitness for governance and mandate would not be recognised.

    If any party gets a majority with 35% or so of the vote it would be ridiculous. And it becomes even more ridiculous the lower the percentage gets. Only two parties can achieve such an outcome though. That's why they love FPTP. Never mind the harm it has done to the country over the years.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,037
    edited October 2014
    I see talk of bosses getting richer while the workers get poorer. The left wing measuring stick of inequality is the gap between richest and poorest, and it's getting bigger thanks to a Labour Party policy

    Mass immigration of economic migrants makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. Until a politician wakes up, admits this and does what is necessary To tackle the problem, they are just putting a plaster on a broken leg

    Eastern European plumbers and electricians work for less money, but that just means their employers profit margin increases.. The customer doesn't get a discount.

    So things cost more, but people are paid less, or the same if they're lucky... Meanwhile the profits for the bosses are so much bigger than the fall in wages of the workers they help increase GDP and the pro mass immigration politicians use this to justify the policy

    Obviously the result of the policy is the reason why the Labour Party was formed in the first place. That the Labour Party are it's staunchest defenders is why a lot of people feel betrayed and are voting for someone else.
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    I think the sea-change is even greater than David Herdson (thanks for yet another excellent op-ed piece, David) thinks it is. David is still happy to talk of the "spectrum" which, if it means anything, means Parties divided by their identification with economic interests (traditionally, Tories backed by Big Business and Labour by Trade Unions).

    ...

    I deliberately used the word spectrum loosely, not least because the divisions between them are themselves fluid.

    Arguably the biggest division at the moment, and the one driving UKIP's rise is on social factors, with Con, Lab and LD all being socially liberal to a greater or lesser extent, and UKIP being socially conservative.

    As both the Tories and Labour have socially conservative wings, what this means is that UKIP can tailor their economic policies to target whichever major party looks the weaker without affecting their core messages, which remain Europe and social conservatism, both of which cut across economic divisions. At the moment, they're playing it both ways, which is a dangerous game as it inevitably produces contradictions, but as with the Lib Dems in the past, that doesn't matter unless you're the one left holding the parcel when the music stops - and they won't be this time.
    David you are spot on.

    The social liberalism of all three main parties has left a huge hole in the political field which UKIP are filling.

    I maintain that it was gay marriage that has been the trigger for UKIPs recent surge, because it unequivocally demonstrated that the Conservatives are now as socially liberal as Labour have been since the sixties.

    Thus a huge slew of voters, who, sometimes with gritted teeth, voted Conservative to keep Labour out because they felt that Labours social values would undermine the fabric of society, have departed from the Conservative party to UKIP.

    One shock to the main parties will be the number of immigrants who vote UKIP as they share those socially conservative values.



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    HughHugh Posts: 955
    Nah, no need for Lab or Con to panic.

    Two possibilities.

    1) We're genuinely in a new era of multi (5+) party politics, with a rough 65/35 Big Two/Rest split.

    2) The Grn/SNP/UKIP/Other surge is a flash in the pan, and things will get back to "normal" soon enough.

    Either way, the Big Two are doing just fine.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited October 2014


    Ok, fine, let them leave, but confiscate 80% of any assets or cash worth more than £200,000 they take with them with an exit tax.

    I assume you are joking.

    Under that regime no one with any world class ability would come to these shores to conduct business, and anyone born here with any sense of ambition would leave, it would be like the brain drain in the 70s only an order of magnitude worse. We would be a third world country inside a generation. Not to mention it would be against European law so you would have to leave the EU first!

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    antifrank said:

    Johann's Lamont resignation is potentially big. This is dynamite under Labour in Scotland and the union itself, confirming the SNP's whole narrative. It is dynamite under Ed Miliband, adding to concerns about his leadership.

    If Labour did coups, this would be Betsygate. Of course, they don't.

    I agree. It looks like a very big development to me.
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    antifrank said:

    Johann's Lamont resignation is potentially big. This is dynamite under Labour in Scotland and the union itself, confirming the SNP's whole narrative. It is dynamite under Ed Miliband, adding to concerns about his leadership.

    If Labour did coups, this would be Betsygate. Of course, they don't.

    I agree. It looks like a very big development to me.
    (re)Enter Gordon Brown methinks
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    If Labour got a majority with a tiny % of the electorate support our constitution would be in a bigger moral crisis than it is at the moment. Their fitness for governance and mandate would not be recognised.

    If UKIP eventually achieve their ultimate goals (directly or indirectly) they wont have any reason to exist anyway. And I don't think they would really care.

    But anyway, personally, I think the ultimate aim of Mr Farage is to do a 'Canada'. It would benefit UKIP (and the Greens) the most if Milliband got into government and became incredibly unpopular, more than he is at the moment.

    Mr Farage might act like a bit of a wide boy geezer, but he is not stupid and knows who his target group is and is doing an amazing job in taking a pickaxe to British politics. Like him or hate him (there is no middle ground there) he is here to stay for a while.

    The problem is our main party leaders are too scared of being hated. Yes, they are hated now by many people, but not for the right reasons. Conviction politicians know they are going to be hated and ridiculed by lots of people, but to balance that out they know they are going to be loved by lots of people too.

    Hovering around the centre in a rudderless fashion just annoys everyone.
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    HughHugh Posts: 955
    I agree with Southam though. The rise of Other parties is a clear sign of rumbling discontent with the Establishment.

    The Tories, being the political wing of the Establishment (Big Business, rightwing media moguls etc) clearly face the greater challenge to modernise, or they will be in big trouble long term.
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    Indigo said:


    Ok, fine, let them leave, but confiscate 80% of any assets or cash worth more than £200,000 they take with them with an exit tax.

    I assume you are joking.

    Under that regime no one with any world class ability would come to these shores to conduct business, and anyone born here with any sense of ambition would leave, it would be like the brain drain in the 70s only an order of magnitude worse. We would be a third world country inside a generation.

    Only if you think that only 0.1% of the population have world class ability

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    JPJ2JPJ2 Posts: 378
    The BBC and others report:

    "Johann Lamont has quit as leader of the Scottish Labour Party after accusing the UK party leadership of treating Scotland as a "branch office" "

    This surely writes the SNP's General Election attack for them. If Salmond does decide to stand, presumably in Gordon, an SNP landslide in Scotland no longer seems the stuff of fantasy to me.
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    isam said:

    I see talk of bosses getting richer while the workers get poorer. The left wing measuring stick of inequality is the gap between richest and poorest, and it's getting bigger thanks to a Labour Party policy

    Mass immigration of economic migrants makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. Until a politician wakes up, admits this and does what is necessary To tackle the problem, they are just putting a plaster on a broken leg

    Eastern European plumbers and electricians work for less money, but that just means their employers profit margin increases.. The customer doesn't get a discount.

    So things cost more, but people are paid less, or the same if they're lucky... Meanwhile the profits for the bosses are so much bigger than the fall in wages of the workers they help increase GDP and the pro mass immigration politicians use this to justify the policy

    Obviously the result of the policy is the reason why the Labour Party was formed in the first place. That the Labour Party are it's staunchest defenders is why a lot of people feel betrayed and are voting for someone else.

    It was actually a Conservative government that signed up to the free movement of workers inside the European Union and which pressed for the early inclusion of eastern European countries into the European Union.

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    FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801

    I think the sea-change is even greater than David Herdson (thanks for yet another excellent op-ed piece, David) thinks it is. David is still happy to talk of the "spectrum" which, if it means anything, means Parties divided by their identification with economic interests (traditionally, Tories backed by Big Business and Labour by Trade Unions).

    The problem with this approach is that to-day half the electorate are right-wing, a third identify with neither left nor right and only one in six are left of centre in the sense politicians of a generation ago would have understood the term.

    This is because the precondition for parties divided by economic interests is ethnic homogeneity. And this we no longer have, nor are we going to recover it any time soon - voting to leave the EU will make people feel better for a week-end and then they will notice that none of the "immigrants" have gone "home".

    The typical white voter in the shires is a (more or less) vicious racist - and, for the avoidance of doubt, I would no more live in shire England than I would poke out my eyes with a sharp stick. It is racism which will provide the motor of political division in England henceforward.

    Actually research shows that North Western Europeans are the least ethnocentric, it's why we have an immigration problem in the first place. Our individualism makes Europe a nicer place to live but we are highly susceptible to invasion by collectivist groups.

    I agree though that identity politics are here and here to stay. Just look at the US where, despite their best efforts not to, the Republicans continue to increase their share of the white vote.http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/10/gop-demographic-crisis-is-still-getting-worse.html
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    audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    edited October 2014

    The three main parties think UKIP will poll <15% in a General Election, and I think they're right. If true then apart from them taking a slice of the vote share pie they won't win many MPs. It's nothing to do with being zen or zombie like. It's because they assume UKIP will fade when people come to the real thing. Again, I'm sure they're right.

    So, really, the main parties aren't doing 'badly.' Under our system there's no real moral reason why a party cannot govern the country on 35%, and there certainly isn't an electoral one.</p>

    Do you really believe "Under our system there's no real moral reason why a party cannot govern the country on 35%"?
    So it's OK to ignore 65% of the electorate. At what percentage does it become immoral to govern, 25%, 20%? I'm assuming that you would be against a dictatorship so there must be a low percentage value and which it becomes immoral. You usually make reasoned arguments, so I'm looking forward to your answer to this.
    Thank you for your kind comment about my normal arguments and I think you're right to question my remark. What I meant was that given we have FPTP then there's no moral reason not to govern on 35%. Whether FPTP will survive a party governing on, say, 33% or below is another issue. My point is that we do have FPTP so it isn't in itself immoral.

    The whole debate about what constitutes fair democracy is interesting. I used to be rather anti coalitions but this was has changed my mind. I think history will judge it as a huge success, and Cameron and Clegg have done a pretty good job considering.
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    HughHugh Posts: 955
    isam said:

    I see talk of bosses getting richer while the workers get poorer. The left wing measuring stick of inequality is the gap between richest and poorest, and it's getting bigger thanks to a Labour Party policy

    Mass immigration of economic migrants makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. Until a politician wakes up, admits this and does what is necessary To tackle the problem, they are just putting a plaster on a broken leg

    Eastern European plumbers and electricians work for less money, but that just means their employers profit margin increases.. The customer doesn't get a discount.

    So things cost more, but people are paid less, or the same if they're lucky... Meanwhile the profits for the bosses are so much bigger than the fall in wages of the workers they help increase GDP and the pro mass immigration politicians use this to justify the policy

    Obviously the result of the policy is the reason why the Labour Party was formed in the first place. That the Labour Party are it's staunchest defenders is why a lot of people feel betrayed and are voting for someone else.

    Immigration is not the problem. The real problem is the kind of economic policies espoused by UKIP - pro big business, anti-public service, anti-state, pro-rich.

    Falsely scapegoating immigrants in a deliberate attempt to create a smokescreen over the failures of the Rightwing Establishment (of which UKIP is a part) will only get you so far.
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    Out of interest, how many British citizens are running big public companies in countries other than the UK? I can't think of many (any actually), so perhaps our senior executives are not as coveted as they may be telling us.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I know Alex Salmond is rumoured to be thinking of standing in Gordon, but wouldn't he be better standing in a Glasgow seat, with the aim of putting boosters under the SNP's hopes of harnessing those Yes voters there?
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,448

    Swiss_Bob said:

    They'll only wake up when the GE15 results roll in.

    Cons 25-30%
    Lab 25-30%
    UKIP 20-25%
    Greens 8-10%
    Libdems 6-8%

    Is my current prediction. Most likely a Con maj. Govt.

    Looks like wishful thinking. Have you plugged those figures in to any prediction sites. Tory majority government on 25 to 30%, looks innumerate.
    The prediction sites are close to useless as soon as any insurgent party (UKIP took only about 3% in 2010), starts polling numbers that would return it seats; they simply don't have the data to work with.

    That said, I think a Tory majority on those number is highly unlikely as it'd have to mean Tory gains in seats on a net swing to Labour. Even allowing for gains from the Lib Dems, I don't see how that can plausibly happen.
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    isam said:

    Obvious the result of mass immigration of economic migrants is the opposite of why the Labour Party was formed. That's why a lot of people feel betrayed and are voting for someone else.

    Many of my comrades don't get this. Concern about immigration is not an attack on individuals - I no more blame migrants to the UK for seeking a better life than I blame Brits living abroad. Nor should we react to migration like its unnatural or alien - we are a mongrel race on an island nation state built and defined by migration both onto our archipelago and us across the globe. I always used to laugh when people described "pure" British as Anglo Saxon - two germanic migrant tribes.

    But that's not enough to excuse or allow a non-policy on migration. I get told about people in all white areas raising migration as a concern as if we can dismiss them as bonkers - can't people have a wider concern for their society than just their immediate area?

    However, as people have come to realise, unchecked migration wasn't a Labour policy, it's an establishment policy. The Tories talked tough about migration, tried to position it as party political but have been as wilfully ineffective as we were. Because you cant control migration in a single market. Its that simple.

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    isamisam Posts: 41,037

    isam said:

    I see talk of bosses getting richer while the workers get poorer. The left wing measuring stick of inequality is the gap between richest and poorest, and it's getting bigger thanks to a Labour Party policy

    Mass immigration of economic migrants makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. Until a politician wakes up, admits this and does what is necessary To tackle the problem, they are just putting a plaster on a broken leg

    Eastern European plumbers and electricians work for less money, but that just means their employers profit margin increases.. The customer doesn't get a discount.

    So things cost more, but people are paid less, or the same if they're lucky... Meanwhile the profits for the bosses are so much bigger than the fall in wages of the workers they help increase GDP and the pro mass immigration politicians use this to justify the policy

    Obviously the result of the policy is the reason why the Labour Party was formed in the first place. That the Labour Party are it's staunchest defenders is why a lot of people feel betrayed and are voting for someone else.

    It was actually a Conservative government that signed up to the free movement of workers inside the European Union and which pressed for the early inclusion of eastern European countries into the European Union.

    You are absolving Tony Blair of any blame? Fair enough as you wish

    The reasons I have outlined are why labour are losing votes to Ukip



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    antifrank said:

    Johann's Lamont resignation is potentially big. This is dynamite under Labour in Scotland and the union itself, confirming the SNP's whole narrative. It is dynamite under Ed Miliband, adding to concerns about his leadership.

    If Labour did coups, this would be Betsygate. Of course, they don't.

    I agree. It looks like a very big development to me.
    (re)Enter Gordon Brown methinks

    Brown would want total control in Scotland. That is not going to happen. Jim Murphy more like. Whatever happens, though, the Labour party in Scotland only has a future if it becomes separate to the party in London.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,916
    Morning all :)

    Not for the first time recently, I find myself in almost complete disagreement with David.

    Far from proclaiming the fall of the three-party monopoly on power, the central argument is that we haven't yet broken the Conservative-Labour duopoly. Last time, the two parties won over 560 of the 650 seats on offer. Even at their respective recent nadirs (1997 for the Conservatives and 1983 for Labour in terms of seats) both won over 150 seats and Labour hasn't won fewer than 200 at any election since 1945.

    The illusion of collapse in voting shares is just that - the country is made up of defined areas of Conservative strength, defined areas of Labour strength and a few pockets of LD strength. Even if both main parties are at 30%, vast numbers of seats will still be Labour or Conservative. UKIP's hope next year is to create its own pockets of strength because if all they do is pile up 15-20% in seat after seat Farage will be able to do the "we have won no seats but a great victory" speech before sliding into obscurity.

    The duopoly won't be broken by UKIP or by the LDs in isolation - it could be broken by PR or by the schism of one of the two main parties which is how we got the SDP which couldn't get the critical mass to make it happen. IF UKIP persuaded 100 Conservative MP and 100 Labour MPs to defect and then held the seats, that would do it too but I can't see that happening.

    As for all the "angry" people who used to vote LD and now vote UKIP - there don't seem to be enough of them to make a difference so they shout and rant on forums like this and elsewhere because, basically, that's all they have. We're forced to listen but that's all - ultimately the tribal loyalists who will turn out for Bob Neill in Bromley & Chislehurst and Stephen Timms in East Ham run the show.
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    isam said:

    isam said:

    I see talk of bosses getting richer while the workers get poorer. The left wing measuring stick of inequality is the gap between richest and poorest, and it's getting bigger thanks to a Labour Party policy

    Mass immigration of economic migrants makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. Until a politician wakes up, admits this and does what is necessary To tackle the problem, they are just putting a plaster on a broken leg

    Eastern European plumbers and electricians work for less money, but that just means their employers profit margin increases.. The customer doesn't get a discount.

    So things cost more, but people are paid less, or the same if they're lucky... Meanwhile the profits for the bosses are so much bigger than the fall in wages of the workers they help increase GDP and the pro mass immigration politicians use this to justify the policy

    Obviously the result of the policy is the reason why the Labour Party was formed in the first place. That the Labour Party are it's staunchest defenders is why a lot of people feel betrayed and are voting for someone else.

    It was actually a Conservative government that signed up to the free movement of workers inside the European Union and which pressed for the early inclusion of eastern European countries into the European Union.

    You are absolving Tony Blair of any blame? Fair enough as you wish

    The reasons I have outlined are why labour are losing votes to Ukip

    No, I am merely pointing out that it was Tory policy that saw us sign up to the free movement of workers in the EU and which accelerated the accession of eastern European countries into the EU. The reasons Labour may be losing some support to UKIP are much more complicated than the fact that a lot of eastern Europeans arrived in the UK during the time Labour was in power. It is to do with immigration from other parts of the world too, the decline of the trade unions (eagerly supported by UKIP's Thatcherite leadership) and the break-up of communities based around heavy industry, general disconnect with mainstream politics and so on.

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    FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Establishment policies on immigration, race relations, Europe and foreign policy have little support, no surprise UKIP tap into all these areas.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,037
    Hugh said:

    isam said:

    I see talk of bosses getting richer while the workers get poorer. The left wing measuring stick of inequality is the gap between richest and poorest, and it's getting bigger thanks to a Labour Party policy

    Mass immigration of economic migrants makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. Until a politician wakes up, admits this and does what is necessary To tackle the problem, they are just putting a plaster on a broken leg

    Eastern European plumbers and electricians work for less money, but that just means their employers profit margin increases.. The customer doesn't get a discount.

    So things cost more, but people are paid less, or the same if they're lucky... Meanwhile the profits for the bosses are so much bigger than the fall in wages of the workers they help increase GDP and the pro mass immigration politicians use this to justify the policy

    Obviously the result of the policy is the reason why the Labour Party was formed in the first place. That the Labour Party are it's staunchest defenders is why a lot of people feel betrayed and are voting for someone else.

    Immigration is not the problem. The real problem is the kind of economic policies espoused by UKIP - pro big business, anti-public service, anti-state, pro-rich.

    Falsely scapegoating immigrants in a deliberate attempt to create a smokescreen over the failures of the Rightwing Establishment (of which UKIP is a part) will only get you so far.
    No one is scapegoating immigrants... It is your accusations that are the smokescreen

    My problem is that the policy you defend makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. The immigrants are pawns in the game. They are just units of labour to the left wing establishment and usefully they can be used as a moral shield when people rumble what's really going on

    It really is absurd that we have come to the point where labour inflict policies on the people they were set up to protect that ruin their lives, then stigmatise them for mentioning it.

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758


    The typical white voter in the shires is a (more or less) vicious racist - and, for the avoidance of doubt, I would no more live in shire England than I would poke out my eyes with a sharp stick.

    Do you have any evidence for this claim that you can share?

    I grew up in the shires, and my experience is entirely contrary.

    They are wary of all outsiders - regardless of race or colour of their skin - but once accepted they are a full member of the community
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    antifrank said:

    I know Alex Salmond is rumoured to be thinking of standing in Gordon, but wouldn't he be better standing in a Glasgow seat, with the aim of putting boosters under the SNP's hopes of harnessing those Yes voters there?

    Would he stand in a seat where he might run the risk of losing, however slight?

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    isamisam Posts: 41,037

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I see talk of bosses getting richer while the workers get poorer. The left wing measuring stick of inequality is the gap between richest and poorest, and it's getting bigger thanks to a Labour Party policy

    Mass immigration of economic migrants makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. Until a politician wakes up, admits this and does what is necessary To tackle the problem, they are just putting a plaster on a broken leg

    Eastern European plumbers and electricians work for less money, but that just means their employers profit margin increases.. The customer doesn't get a discount.

    So things cost more, but people are paid less, or the same if they're lucky... Meanwhile the profits for the bosses are so much bigger than the fall in wages of the workers they help increase GDP and the pro mass immigration politicians use this to justify the policy

    Obviously the result of the policy is the reason why the Labour Party was formed in the first place. That the Labour Party are it's staunchest defenders is why a lot of people feel betrayed and are voting for someone else.

    It was actually a Conservative government that signed up to the free movement of workers inside the European Union and which pressed for the early inclusion of eastern European countries into the European Union.

    You are absolving Tony Blair of any blame? Fair enough as you wish

    The reasons I have outlined are why labour are losing votes to Ukip

    No, I am merely pointing out that it was Tory policy that saw us sign up to the free movement of workers in the EU and which accelerated the accession of eastern European countries into the EU. The reasons Labour may be losing some support to UKIP are much more complicated than the fact that a lot of eastern Europeans arrived in the UK during the time Labour was in power. It is to do with immigration from other parts of the world too, the decline of the trade unions (eagerly supported by UKIP's Thatcherite leadership) and the break-up of communities based around heavy industry, general disconnect with mainstream politics and so on.

    You won't get far blaming Ukip for problems that started in the 80s

    Labour were meant to be the party that put the working class first. Allowing cheap labour to undercut wages and reduce living standards while simultaneously making the employers richer is the equivalent of Ukip rejoining the EU in 2120
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    JPJ2JPJ2 Posts: 378
    antifrank says of Salmond:

    "wouldn't he be better standing in a Glasgow seat, with the aim of putting boosters under the SNP's hopes of harnessing those Yes voters there?"

    Salmond is probably the only senior politician in Scotland who might seriously consider doing such a thing. I cite as evidence that he returned to Holyrood by contesting a seat where his party had come third in the previous election. On balance, however, I think that he will not for at least the reasons below:

    * Although Glasgow voted "Yes", many appear to have done so on the basis that a vote for independence was expressly not a vote for Alex Salmond.

    * A lot more effort might be required to win in Glasgow than in Gordon which might prove a distraction from the main campaign

    * It might be viewed negatively in much of the rest of Scotland, where Salmond garners some support for his party by it not being dominated by Glasgow. It would certainly be easily portrayed as such with Sturgeon also being Glasgow based.

    I still don't feel able to rule it out completely, though it is the third point that is the most important to me.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,187

    antifrank said:

    Johann's Lamont resignation is potentially big. This is dynamite under Labour in Scotland and the union itself, confirming the SNP's whole narrative. It is dynamite under Ed Miliband, adding to concerns about his leadership.

    If Labour did coups, this would be Betsygate. Of course, they don't.

    I agree. It looks like a very big development to me.
    (re)Enter Gordon Brown methinks
    Ha Ha Ha , chances of him doing a days work are ZERO.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    antifrank said:

    I know Alex Salmond is rumoured to be thinking of standing in Gordon, but wouldn't he be better standing in a Glasgow seat, with the aim of putting boosters under the SNP's hopes of harnessing those Yes voters there?

    Would he stand in a seat where he might run the risk of losing, however slight?

    If he's not going to do so at this stage in his career, what is he standing for?

    But I take JPJ2's points.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    A related question: will FPTP survive beyoond the next election? Surely it will be untenable in a 4 major party system. The chances of a highly disproportionate outcome in 2015 is very high, e.g. Labour being outpolled by the Tories but getting a majority and/or UKIP getting far more votes than the LibDems but fewer seats. In such a scenario the Right may suddenly discover an appetite for electoral reform.

    People forget that the Tories used to be the strongest supporters of electoral reform (I believe in the 1920s, but not really my period)
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Financier

    'People are not just angry but are contemptuous of politicians, not just at Westminster but at all levels and especially at council level.

    At Westminster they blame politicians for allowing the UK to get into this economic/immigration/housing/employment/benefits/EU/ECHR mess and not being able to solve those problems. They are fed up with finding out about the lies of Blair and of others coming to light and the gross inefficiency resulting from the collusion of MPs, AMs etc with the civil services in hiding errors and mistakes and the sheer waste of money.

    At council level, they are fed up with being treated with contempt by self-serving councillors and council staff. When budgets are cut, then always the first reaction is to cut services whilst at the same time protecting better salaries and pensions than most of the council tax payers can ever dream about. They are tired of being fined for putting rubbish in the wrong bin or out on the wrong day, being fined for taking children on a term-time holiday etc. At the same time councils seem to be so thick from the neck up that they are unable to think of ways of do things better and more economically.

    At police level they are tired of police doing the easy stuff like speeding and avoiding the difficult stuff like sorting out the crime-ridden areas and the drug barons and child grooming gangs.

    They are even more appalled at the collusion of councils and police in not executing the law fairly among all people but for political reasons have ignored criminal activity by sectors of the population.

    Health care is over-managed by the wrong people and is failing due to this policy. Our education standards continue to decline on a global level with the potential for serious unemployment in the decades to come. Energy has been ignored for decades but is more costly due to Green theory.

    In fact it has now come down to the public sector versus the population as often seen in totalitarian or communist regimes. If you belong to the favoured sector you will be looked after, if not ....

    Most of our politicians are clueless about how to improve matters and much policy is driven by idealists but not practicalists. The people are fed up and want solutions and will follow those who offer realistic solutions.

    Remember both Hitler and Mussolini brought in effective solutions and made people's lives better for a time - they just stayed in power too long.'


    LIKE

    An excellent synopsis.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,037
    The Guardians take on mass immigration of economic migrants

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/22/wisbech-immigration-politicians-david-cameron-ukip-eu-exit

    "This year I visited Wisbech – where a third of the 30,000 population is now estimated to be from overseas – and what was happening there spoke loud truths about why free movement has become so politicised. For all that recently arrived families have started to settle, and their children are acquiring new, hybrid identities, there are still glaring problems. Young men from eastern Europe often live four or five to a room, and work impossibly long hours; with echoes of Europe’s macroeconomic asymmetries, the local labour market is divided between insufficient jobs that be can be done by people with families and mortgages, and a surfeit of opportunities for those who will work whenever they are required for a relative pittance.

    This creates endless tension. There have also been inevitable problems surrounding how far schools and doctors’ surgeries have been stretched. Is anyone surprised? Moreover, even if such places represent socioeconomic extremes, similar problems surface whenever large-scale migration fuses with the more precarious parts of the economy. In modern Britain, this obviously happens often, and the under-reported consequences of austerity have hardly helped.

    What passes for the modern left tends to be far too blase about all this. Perhaps those who reduce people’s worries and fears to mere bigotry should go back to first principles, and consider whether, in such laissez-faire conditions, free movement has been of most benefit to capital or labour. They might also think about the dread spectacle of people from upscale London postcodes passing judgment on people who experience large-scale migration as something real."

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    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I see talk of bosses getting richer while the workers get poorer. The left wing measuring stick of inequality is the gap between richest and poorest, and it's getting bigger thanks to a Labour Party policy

    Mass immigration of economic migrants makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. Until a politician wakes up, admits this and does what is necessary To tackle the problem, they are just putting a plaster on a broken leg

    Eastern European plumbers and electricians work for less money, but that just means their employers profit margin increases.. The customer doesn't get a discount.

    So things cost more, but people are paid less, or the same if they're lucky... Meanwhile the profits for the bosses are so much bigger than the fall in wages of the workers they help increase GDP and the pro mass immigration politicians use this to justify the policy

    Obviously the result of the policy is the reason why the Labour Party was formed in the first place. That the Labour Party are it's staunchest defenders is why a lot of people feel betrayed and are voting for someone else.

    It was actually a Conservative government that signed up to the free movement of workers inside the European Union and which pressed for the early inclusion of eastern European countries into the European Union.

    You are absolving Tony Blair of any blame? Fair enough as you wish

    The reasons I have outlined are why labour are losing votes to Ukip

    No, I am merely pointing out that it was Tory policy that saw us sign up to the free movement of workers in the EU and which accelerated the accession of eastern European countries into the EU. The reasons Labour may be losing some support to UKIP are much more complicated than the fact that a lot of eastern Europeans arrived in the UK during the time Labour was in power. It is to do with immigration from other parts of the world too, the decline of the trade unions (eagerly supported by UKIP's Thatcherite leadership) and the break-up of communities based around heavy industry, general disconnect with mainstream politics and so on.

    You won't get far blaming Ukip for problems that started in the 80s

    Labour were meant to be the party that put the working class first. Allowing cheap labour to undercut wages and reduce living standards while simultaneously making the employers richer is the equivalent of Ukip rejoining the EU in 2120

    Again, I am merely pointing out that UKIP's leadership were (and are) enthusiastic supporters of policies that destroyed countless working class communities across the country in the 80s and 90s.

    You should not confuse me with someone who is going to vote Labour next year.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    TGOHF said:

    Financier said:

    Plato said:
    (n fact things are worse, for there have been instances when a hospital reduced services the very well paid chair and leaders of the relevant health board refused to attend a public meeting saying in effect it was nothing to do with the public.
    When religions start losing touch with their followers they are in trouble.

    Last days of the Raj at the top of the public sector.

    Meanwhile CEOs at big public companies now earn hundreds times more than their staff. For what? Believe me, that makes people furious too. It used to be 20 or 30 times more. What's changed? Well, productivity is down, we are exporting less and investing less in R&D and training. Best reward the men, for it is largely men, who have overseen this "triumph".

    You'd enjoy reading Graef Crystal on this. He basically single-handedly created the "remuneration consultant" industry but about 5 years ago took a step back in horror when he realised what he had done.
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    Good piece David. I think we are currently meandering gently towards a quite fundamental political change, manifested by a schism within one or other of the largest parties and some kind of structural re-alignment. I am afraid it appears to me more likely that it will be the Conservatives that yield first (immediate UKIP threat, natural fault line within the party over Europe, tradition of regicide which provides regular potential catalysts for schism), but it is not impossible that a lacklustre performance in May catalyses a schism within Labour. Whichever party realigns first will relieve the pressure from the other party.

    The rise of Ukip has its roots in the long-term trend of increasing dissatisfaction with the main parties and the shorter-term factor of the loss of the Liberal Democrats as a repository for protest votes. All three of the traditional "main" parties are now judged as part of the same governing class, and none appear capable of appealing to the ever-growing group of disaffected voters. The Conservatives could not in 2010, and Labour if anything seem to be doing a worse job, despite the implosion in Lib Dem support. If you'd have believed in 2010 that the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats would ship 20 points between them at this point in the parliament, you'd no doubt have thought Labour would be secure in the low-mid 40s. The fact that they are some ten points adrift of that mark and struggling to retain a lead in the polls demonstrates the scale of their failure to date.

    Still, it's all to play for in 2015. The decisive factor will be how the disaffected groups behave. Which will hold their nose and return to their former home? Which will register their disaffection by simply staying at home? And which will turnout for the parties they now say they support? My sense is that the Ukip vote will be more resilient than, for example, the Green vote, which may assist Labour, but that the Lib Dems will find a way to win back some of the support lost to Labour, which could offset the different behaviour of Ukip and Green supporters.

    The Rochester by-election could prove to be decisive (I think the betting markets are currently underestimating the risk of a post buy-election Tory meltdown), but assuming the Tories survive it (that is to say, either they win or they lose but don't fracture further (latter more likely)) I believe the most important development in the next few months will be the yellow swan - the Lib Dems' strategy for departing government and positioning at the next election. We more or less know what each of the Tories, Labour and Ukip will offer at the next election. We don't yet know what Liberal Democrats will offer, or whether they can recapture much of the support they appear to have lost.
This discussion has been closed.