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Starmer sees a net 17% approval gain compared with a year ago – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited January 2023 in General
Starmer sees a net 17% approval gain compared with a year ago – politicalbetting.com

Keir Starmer's approval rating is +10% in the first poll of 2023, up from -7% in the first poll of 2022.Keir Starmer Approval Rating (2-3 January):Approve: 36% (-1)Disapprove: 26% (-1)Net: +10% (–)Changes +/- 11 Decemberhttps://t.co/AKVWIP5UGO pic.twitter.com/tyThJClcL9

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Comments

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753
    Still think he is benefitting from the chaos on the government side rather than anything particularly clever on his own. If that is right and Rishi continues to provide some stability he should fade a little.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    DavidL said:

    Still think he is benefitting from the chaos on the government side rather than anything particularly clever on his own. If that is right and Rishi continues to provide some stability he should fade a little.

    Agreed. But I am yet to be convinced by Rishi who is still getting negative ratings.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,727
    DavidL said:

    Still think he is benefitting from the chaos on the government side rather than anything particularly clever on his own. If that is right and Rishi continues to provide some stability he should fade a little.

    Today does not bode well for Sunak.

    There is a major crisis underway in the NHS, and his response is to deny it, and make a major policy wonk speech.

    I don't see how that improves his numbers.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753

    DavidL said:

    Still think he is benefitting from the chaos on the government side rather than anything particularly clever on his own. If that is right and Rishi continues to provide some stability he should fade a little.

    Agreed. But I am yet to be convinced by Rishi who is still getting negative ratings.
    We are in agreement with that also. Chancellors can go walk about for a while, it can even be useful for them to do so, but a PM needs a much higher profile than Rishi has had to date. He is not giving the impression of being in charge.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,879
    DavidL said:

    Anyhoo, I need to head off to work for my first new job in 22 years today. In the publlc sector too. Going to be interesting.

    Best of luck on your first day!
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,879
    Politically the country is in a weird waiting period. Lots of things are going wrong, but the public doesn't get the chance to choose a set of solutions for 2 years.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,956
    edited January 2023

    DavidL said:

    Still think he is benefitting from the chaos on the government side rather than anything particularly clever on his own. If that is right and Rishi continues to provide some stability he should fade a little.

    Agreed. But I am yet to be convinced by Rishi who is still getting negative ratings.
    I don't wish to belittle him but Rishi is crap, he lost to Liz Truss.

    That's like drawing against the Faroe Islands in football.
  • On topic.

    SKS doubters please explain.
  • As somebody who did both A Level Maths and Further Maths and thought about reading Mathematics at University I am very pro Maths so good on Sunak for focussing on Maths.

    Not sure the country is in the mood for it though.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,727

    As somebody who did both A Level Maths and Further Maths and thought about reading Mathematics at University I am very pro Maths so good on Sunak for focussing on Maths.

    Not sure the country is in the mood for it though.

    Labour source: “They’ve nothing to offer the country except double maths. As the health service falls to pieces, criminals terrorise the streets, and working people worry how their wages will last the month, the country is entitled to ask: is this it?”

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/rishi-sunak-maths-until-18_uk_63b4919ae4b0d6f0b9f64369

    Tory source: "Going from zero maths to some maths cannot be ‘double.’ Double zero is … Zero.”

    Labour source hits back: "Not a great look that the people overseeing our kids’ education aren’t familiar with ‘double maths’ I suppose you didn’t get that at Winchester College."
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,727
    The prime minister wants school children to study more maths. Perhaps if we all study the maths of Brexit in these charts we might realise we need to reverse the self-inflicted damage: https://twitter.com/pimlicat/status/1610535114668228609
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,727
    NEW: Food inflation at a record 13.3%.

    Families will be wondering whether they will ever feel better off under the Tories.

    With the growing cost of the weekly shop just one factor in this, the answer will be no.

    Britain deserves better than this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jan/04/record-133-uk-food-inflation-raises-fears-of-another-difficult-year
  • DavidL said:

    Anyhoo, I need to head off to work for my first new job in 22 years today. In the publlc sector too. Going to be interesting.

    Good luck. Take a large sack for your gold-plated public sector pay and pension.
  • DavidL said:

    Anyhoo, I need to head off to work for my first new job in 22 years today. In the publlc sector too. Going to be interesting.

    Good luck.

    Although welcome to the world of being classed as a politically exposed person.
  • As somebody who did both A Level Maths and Further Maths and thought about reading Mathematics at University I am very pro Maths so good on Sunak for focussing on Maths.

    Not sure the country is in the mood for it though.

    You are Liz Truss AICMFP.

    Rishi seems to have picked up at least one idea from his mathematically-minded predecessor.
  • DavidL said:

    Anyhoo, I need to head off to work for my first new job in 22 years today. In the publlc sector too. Going to be interesting.

    Went back yesterday. Yes it was a bank holiday but latest client is in England where it wasn't...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,050
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Food inflation at a record 13.3%.

    Families will be wondering whether they will ever feel better off under the Tories.

    With the growing cost of the weekly shop just one factor in this, the answer will be no.

    Britain deserves better than this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jan/04/record-133-uk-food-inflation-raises-fears-of-another-difficult-year

    Every Briton is getting maths lessons at the moment trying to make their bills and income add up.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728
    edited January 2023
    Typical Russian government.

    They put a load of soldiers in a large building marked on every map. They put a load of ammunition next to them. They move them about in broad daylight.

    And whose fault is it when the Ukrainians blow them up?

    The soldiers', for using mobile phones.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/04/anger-and-grief-at-rare-public-commemoration-in-russia-after-makiivka-strike

    Although I suppose the story may have the positive side effect (from the Putinista point of view) of making soldiers nervous about using mobile phones to tell people just how big a disaster Putin's penile compensation scheme is.

    And, of course, it may have some truth in it, improbable though this would be for a Russian press release.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,727
    Is the maths announcement going to be derailed cos they didn't count the number of teachers?

    I'm told by no10 that the Maths announcement is "fully thought through".

    Headteachers union @ASCL say it might exacerbate the already "chronic national shortage" of maths teachers & must be "based on solid research, not a pet project"

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1610541249588563968
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728
    Scott_xP said:

    As somebody who did both A Level Maths and Further Maths and thought about reading Mathematics at University I am very pro Maths so good on Sunak for focussing on Maths.

    Not sure the country is in the mood for it though.

    Labour source: “They’ve nothing to offer the country except double maths. As the health service falls to pieces, criminals terrorise the streets, and working people worry how their wages will last the month, the country is entitled to ask: is this it?”

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/rishi-sunak-maths-until-18_uk_63b4919ae4b0d6f0b9f64369

    Tory source: "Going from zero maths to some maths cannot be ‘double.’ Double zero is … Zero.”

    Labour source hits back: "Not a great look that the people overseeing our kids’ education aren’t familiar with ‘double maths’ I suppose you didn’t get that at Winchester College."
    Wrong attack line from Labour.

    Instead, they should be asking why after a series of major curriculum and exam reforms dating back ten years, we are still not teaching maths sufficiently in twelve years that an extra two years are needed on top.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728
    Scott_xP said:

    Is the maths announcement going to be derailed cos they didn't count the number of teachers?

    I'm told by no10 that the Maths announcement is "fully thought through".

    Headteachers union @ASCL say it might exacerbate the already "chronic national shortage" of maths teachers & must be "based on solid research, not a pet project"

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1610541249588563968

    I totally disagree with the ASCL.

    They said 'might' instead of 'would.'
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,096

    As somebody who did both A Level Maths and Further Maths and thought about reading Mathematics at University I am very pro Maths so good on Sunak for focussing on Maths.

    Not sure the country is in the mood for it though.

    Well done to you (genuinely) but that's just the problem. Someone, private-educated, who is good at Maths wants to impose it on everyone else. I was very good at English. Am I supposed to impose that on everyone with a maths-brain? Or those who are brilliant at drama or art or languages or design or sport?

    This country has a zillion more important things on which to focus, not someone's pet subject. This just shows him up to be a student politician. Out of touch, ideological, aloof.

    They are a bunch of fucking idiots.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    ydoethur said:

    Typical Russian government.

    They put a load of soldiers in a large building marked on every map. They put a load of ammunition next to them. They move them about in broad daylight.

    And whose fault is it when the Ukrainians blow them up?

    The soldiers', for using mobile phones.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/04/anger-and-grief-at-rare-public-commemoration-in-russia-after-makiivka-strike

    Although I suppose the story may have the positive side effect (from the Putinista point of view) of making soldiers nervous about using mobile phones to tell people just how big a disaster Putin's penile compensation scheme is.

    And, of course, it may have some truth in it, improbable though this would be for a Russian press release.

    Mobiks get their phones confiscated and the Russian government makes MegaFon, MTS, etc. cancel the contracts. Because they are as thick as fuck and usually the product of fetal alcohol syndrome they go out and buy/steal new phones all the time. The Ukrainians probably have an operation to sell cheap Chinaphones with compromised baseband processors going in Donbas.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    edited January 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is the maths announcement going to be derailed cos they didn't count the number of teachers?

    I'm told by no10 that the Maths announcement is "fully thought through".

    Headteachers union @ASCL say it might exacerbate the already "chronic national shortage" of maths teachers & must be "based on solid research, not a pet project"

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1610541249588563968

    I totally disagree with the ASCL.

    They said 'might' instead of 'would.'
    The whole policy is a bit odd. It is not that children are failing to reach some minimum standard necessary for modern life. Instead, it simply adds two more years of maths to wherever pupils happen to be, whether that takes them to basic numeracy or 1st year university level.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,727
    How is Brexit going? latest...

    EXCL: Ministers have signed £200k contract with disaster response charity to help drivers stuck in lorry queues in Kent.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/04/disaster-response-charity-enlisted-to-aid-drivers-stuck-in-uk-queues-for-channel?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is the maths announcement going to be derailed cos they didn't count the number of teachers?

    I'm told by no10 that the Maths announcement is "fully thought through".

    Headteachers union @ASCL say it might exacerbate the already "chronic national shortage" of maths teachers & must be "based on solid research, not a pet project"

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1610541249588563968

    I totally disagree with the ASCL.

    They said 'might' instead of 'would.'
    Rough numbers...

    It depends on how many hours a week this new maths teaching involves, but the Sunak plan is likely to need 5000 to 10000 extra maths teachers.

    The government currently aims to recruit 2000 mathematicians into teacher training each year, and got 1800 last year.

    This is why an awful lot of maths lessons aren't actually taught by actual maths teachers.
  • Heathener said:

    As somebody who did both A Level Maths and Further Maths and thought about reading Mathematics at University I am very pro Maths so good on Sunak for focussing on Maths.

    Not sure the country is in the mood for it though.

    Well done to you (genuinely) but that's just the problem. Someone, private-educated, who is good at Maths wants to impose it on everyone else. I was very good at English. Am I supposed to impose that on everyone with a maths-brain? Or those who are brilliant at drama or art or languages or design or sport?

    This country has a zillion more important things on which to focus, not someone's pet subject. This just shows him up to be a student politician. Out of touch, ideological, aloof.

    They are a bunch of fucking idiots.
    Your class warfare is disgusting.

    Would you talk about plebs with such disdain?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    edited January 2023
    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    Typical Russian government.

    They put a load of soldiers in a large building marked on every map. They put a load of ammunition next to them. They move them about in broad daylight.

    And whose fault is it when the Ukrainians blow them up?

    The soldiers', for using mobile phones.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/04/anger-and-grief-at-rare-public-commemoration-in-russia-after-makiivka-strike

    Although I suppose the story may have the positive side effect (from the Putinista point of view) of making soldiers nervous about using mobile phones to tell people just how big a disaster Putin's penile compensation scheme is.

    And, of course, it may have some truth in it, improbable though this would be for a Russian press release.

    Mobiks get their phones confiscated and the Russian government makes MegaFon, MTS, etc. cancel the contracts. Because they are as thick as fuck and usually the product of fetal alcohol syndrome they go out and buy/steal new phones all the time. The Ukrainians probably have an operation to sell cheap Chinaphones with compromised baseband processors going in Donbas.
    Phones are a distraction. The SMO apparently needs squaddies to sleep at ammunition dumps, the locations of which are known to American satellites and spy planes even without geolocated tweets home to mama. Ammunition dumps that are also prime targets for Ukrainian shells directed from a funny-shaped building several thousand miles west. Or is it east?
  • ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    As somebody who did both A Level Maths and Further Maths and thought about reading Mathematics at University I am very pro Maths so good on Sunak for focussing on Maths.

    Not sure the country is in the mood for it though.

    Well done to you (genuinely) but that's just the problem. Someone, private-educated, who is good at Maths wants to impose it on everyone else. I was very good at English. Am I supposed to impose that on everyone with a maths-brain? Or those who are brilliant at drama or art or languages or design or sport?

    This country has a zillion more important things on which to focus, not someone's pet subject. This just shows him up to be a student politician. Out of touch, ideological, aloof.

    They are a bunch of fucking idiots.
    The other thing that is being forgotten here is just how intensive our post-16 courses, especially the new ones, actually are. There is a reason why only people doing further maths routinely do four a-levels these days. Adding a compulsory subject on top, especially for modern apprenticeships where the college time has to be quite limited, would be a nightmare.

    It's entirely typical of the whole government's approach to education. 'We all did well in maths at post-16. We are talented and successful people. Therefore, the key to making people talented and successful is to make them do more maths.'
    Can't escape the feeling that the government's thinking hasn't got further than:

    1 City quants are fabulously wealthy and have private healthcare.

    2 If everyone in Britain was a city quant they would all have private healthcare and we wouldn't have to worry about the NHS any more.

    3 Therefore, everyone needs to study maths.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,096
    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    As somebody who did both A Level Maths and Further Maths and thought about reading Mathematics at University I am very pro Maths so good on Sunak for focussing on Maths.

    Not sure the country is in the mood for it though.

    Well done to you (genuinely) but that's just the problem. Someone, private-educated, who is good at Maths wants to impose it on everyone else. I was very good at English. Am I supposed to impose that on everyone with a maths-brain? Or those who are brilliant at drama or art or languages or design or sport?

    This country has a zillion more important things on which to focus, not someone's pet subject. This just shows him up to be a student politician. Out of touch, ideological, aloof.

    They are a bunch of fucking idiots.
    It's entirely typical of the whole government's approach to education. 'We all did well in maths at post-16. We are talented and successful people. Therefore, the key to making people talented and successful is to make them do more maths.'
    Exactly. That nails it.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,911
    Scott_xP said:

    How is Brexit going? latest...

    EXCL: Ministers have signed £200k contract with disaster response charity to help drivers stuck in lorry queues in Kent.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/04/disaster-response-charity-enlisted-to-aid-drivers-stuck-in-uk-queues-for-channel?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Ha ha. Brexit is literally a disaster. And Rishi Long Division Sunak thought it was such a good idea. Hardly a great advertisement for his so called elite education.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,096
    It's typical of these ideological nutjobs that they can't get their heads out of their collective arses and are STAGGERINGLY unintelligent in that they can't recognise that their own private-educated schooling might not compute across to the state sector.

    No tory should be in charge of the NHS. Period.

    And no private-educated tory should be anywhere near education. Period.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,911
    Heathener said:

    As somebody who did both A Level Maths and Further Maths and thought about reading Mathematics at University I am very pro Maths so good on Sunak for focussing on Maths.

    Not sure the country is in the mood for it though.

    Well done to you (genuinely) but that's just the problem. Someone, private-educated, who is good at Maths wants to impose it on everyone else. I was very good at English. Am I supposed to impose that on everyone with a maths-brain? Or those who are brilliant at drama or art or languages or design or sport?

    This country has a zillion more important things on which to focus, not someone's pet subject. This just shows him up to be a student politician. Out of touch, ideological, aloof.

    They are a bunch of fucking idiots.
    Sunak loves maths because he needs to know the big numbers to count his wife's money.
  • Arsenal have gone at the game. My bet is doomed.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,050
    edited January 2023

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is the maths announcement going to be derailed cos they didn't count the number of teachers?

    I'm told by no10 that the Maths announcement is "fully thought through".

    Headteachers union @ASCL say it might exacerbate the already "chronic national shortage" of maths teachers & must be "based on solid research, not a pet project"

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1610541249588563968

    I totally disagree with the ASCL.

    They said 'might' instead of 'would.'
    Rough numbers...

    It depends on how many hours a week this new maths teaching involves, but the Sunak plan is likely to need 5000 to 10000 extra maths teachers.

    The government currently aims to recruit 2000 mathematicians into teacher training each year, and got 1800 last year.

    This is why an awful lot of maths lessons aren't actually taught by actual maths teachers.
    The level of gaslighting from this government is incredible.

    Crisis? What crisis? In the NHS.

    Crisis? What crisis? in teacher training and retention.

    Isn't Rishi supposed to be good at maths?

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,006
    edited January 2023

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is the maths announcement going to be derailed cos they didn't count the number of teachers?

    I'm told by no10 that the Maths announcement is "fully thought through".

    Headteachers union @ASCL say it might exacerbate the already "chronic national shortage" of maths teachers & must be "based on solid research, not a pet project"

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1610541249588563968

    I totally disagree with the ASCL.

    They said 'might' instead of 'would.'
    Rough numbers...

    It depends on how many hours a week this new maths teaching involves, but the Sunak plan is likely to need 5000 to 10000 extra maths teachers.

    The government currently aims to recruit 2000 mathematicians into teacher training each year, and got 1800 last year.

    This is why an awful lot of maths lessons aren't actually taught by actual maths teachers.
    So in other words the problem isn't that kids need more maths, its that they need maths. So we need to make teaching an attractive profession to both get into and stay in - something the Tories are doing in reverse as with everything else.

    Then again, HY and that beinn guy - and possibly Big_G - will point out that I live north of the wall which is devolved which proves there is no crisis in England so THERE. Which is 1+1=11 territory...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,050
    Scott_xP said:

    How is Brexit going? latest...

    EXCL: Ministers have signed £200k contract with disaster response charity to help drivers stuck in lorry queues in Kent.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/04/disaster-response-charity-enlisted-to-aid-drivers-stuck-in-uk-queues-for-channel?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Totally normal country...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is the maths announcement going to be derailed cos they didn't count the number of teachers?

    I'm told by no10 that the Maths announcement is "fully thought through".

    Headteachers union @ASCL say it might exacerbate the already "chronic national shortage" of maths teachers & must be "based on solid research, not a pet project"

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1610541249588563968

    I totally disagree with the ASCL.

    They said 'might' instead of 'would.'
    Rough numbers...

    It depends on how many hours a week this new maths teaching involves, but the Sunak plan is likely to need 5000 to 10000 extra maths teachers.

    The government currently aims to recruit 2000 mathematicians into teacher training each year, and got 1800 last year.

    This is why an awful lot of maths lessons aren't actually taught by actual maths teachers.
    So in other words the problem isn't that kids need more maths, its that they need maths. So we need to make teaching an attractive profession to both get into and stay in - something the Tories are doing in reverse as with everything else.

    Then again, HY and that beinn guy - and possibly Big_G - will point out that I live north of the wall which is devolved which proves there is no crisis in England so THERE. Which is 1+1=11 territory...
    Big G has spent most of the last 48 hours bemoaning crises in the NHS on Labour's watch, but I haven't seen him say that means there is no crisis in England.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    As somebody who did both A Level Maths and Further Maths and thought about reading Mathematics at University I am very pro Maths so good on Sunak for focussing on Maths.

    Not sure the country is in the mood for it though.

    Well done to you (genuinely) but that's just the problem. Someone, private-educated, who is good at Maths wants to impose it on everyone else. I was very good at English. Am I supposed to impose that on everyone with a maths-brain? Or those who are brilliant at drama or art or languages or design or sport?

    This country has a zillion more important things on which to focus, not someone's pet subject. This just shows him up to be a student politician. Out of touch, ideological, aloof.

    They are a bunch of fucking idiots.
    The other thing that is being forgotten here is just how intensive our post-16 courses, especially the new ones, actually are. There is a reason why only people doing further maths routinely do four a-levels these days. Adding a compulsory subject on top, especially for modern apprenticeships where the college time has to be quite limited, would be a nightmare.

    It's entirely typical of the whole government's approach to education. 'We all did well in maths at post-16. We are talented and successful people. Therefore, the key to making people talented and successful is to make them do more maths.'
    Can't escape the feeling that the government's thinking hasn't got further than:

    1 City quants are fabulously wealthy and have private healthcare.

    2 If everyone in Britain was a city quant they would all have private healthcare and we wouldn't have to worry about the NHS any more.

    3 Therefore, everyone needs to study maths.
    This is a bit unfair. From what Casino says upthread it sounds like this is a result of a serious report that's considered the issue, rather than something made up in ten minutes in Downing Street. The extension of compulsory Maths education to 18 is likely only to be the most eye-catching of many proposals, rather than the main policy itself.
  • Hang on, we're all going to be talking about maths, but Rishi is to announce that his big new plan won't happen in the current parliament?

    So the solution to Britain falling apart at the seams in January 2023 is a commitment to legislate to have all students do maths to 19 at some point in the parliament to come.

    In the paragraph afterwards he will announce the return of the cones hotline. In 2027.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,050

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    As somebody who did both A Level Maths and Further Maths and thought about reading Mathematics at University I am very pro Maths so good on Sunak for focussing on Maths.

    Not sure the country is in the mood for it though.

    Well done to you (genuinely) but that's just the problem. Someone, private-educated, who is good at Maths wants to impose it on everyone else. I was very good at English. Am I supposed to impose that on everyone with a maths-brain? Or those who are brilliant at drama or art or languages or design or sport?

    This country has a zillion more important things on which to focus, not someone's pet subject. This just shows him up to be a student politician. Out of touch, ideological, aloof.

    They are a bunch of fucking idiots.
    The other thing that is being forgotten here is just how intensive our post-16 courses, especially the new ones, actually are. There is a reason why only people doing further maths routinely do four a-levels these days. Adding a compulsory subject on top, especially for modern apprenticeships where the college time has to be quite limited, would be a nightmare.

    It's entirely typical of the whole government's approach to education. 'We all did well in maths at post-16. We are talented and successful people. Therefore, the key to making people talented and successful is to make them do more maths.'
    Can't escape the feeling that the government's thinking hasn't got further than:

    1 City quants are fabulously wealthy and have private healthcare.

    2 If everyone in Britain was a city quant they would all have private healthcare and we wouldn't have to worry about the NHS any more.

    3 Therefore, everyone needs to study maths.
    This is a bit unfair. From what Casino says upthread it sounds like this is a result of a serious report that's considered the issue, rather than something made up in ten minutes in Downing Street. The extension of compulsory Maths education to 18 is likely only to be the most eye-catching of many proposals, rather than the main policy itself.
    Proposed by Gove in 2011. How is implementation of that going?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Maths is great. I doubt making quadratics, histograms and Cosine rules universally compulsory is going to do much. There needs to be an ability to differentiate needs. Let the bright kids go further, whilst others get the basics you need to live a modern life. That’s a challenge.

    Here’s some Anecdata. My wife is a maths tutor. She currently teaches mathematics to a kid who came to the U.K. from abroad. The kid has very little English and lived in a rural community. Basic arithmetic is new to this child. The child is bright, but at 14 years old it’s a struggle that relies on a lot of 1:1 time.

    If you really want to achieve core standards at 18, will require significant investment.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    DavidL said:

    Anyhoo, I need to head off to work for my first new job in 22 years today. In the publlc sector too. Going to be interesting.

    Good luck, David! 22 years is a long time.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is the maths announcement going to be derailed cos they didn't count the number of teachers?

    I'm told by no10 that the Maths announcement is "fully thought through".

    Headteachers union @ASCL say it might exacerbate the already "chronic national shortage" of maths teachers & must be "based on solid research, not a pet project"

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1610541249588563968

    I totally disagree with the ASCL.

    They said 'might' instead of 'would.'
    Rough numbers...

    It depends on how many hours a week this new maths teaching involves, but the Sunak plan is likely to need 5000 to 10000 extra maths teachers.

    The government currently aims to recruit 2000 mathematicians into teacher training each year, and got 1800 last year.

    This is why an awful lot of maths lessons aren't actually taught by actual maths teachers.
    So in other words the problem isn't that kids need more maths, its that they need maths. So we need to make teaching an attractive profession to both get into and stay in - something the Tories are doing in reverse as with everything else.

    Then again, HY and that beinn guy - and possibly Big_G - will point out that I live north of the wall which is devolved which proves there is no crisis in England so THERE. Which is 1+1=11 territory...
    The real question is, why is maths GCSE not considered adequate?

    And the answers could be:

    1) Lack of specialist teachers - which is a long standing problem, made worse by this government;

    2) A badly written curriculum - which is the responsibility of Nick Gibb, a member of this government;

    3) A joke of an assessment system - ibid.

    4) A broken inspection system - which has undoubtedly been caused by the decision to appoint a personal friend of Nicky Morgan as chief, instead of somebody with a functioning brain or even a limited knowledge of education;

    5) Classes that are too large for the teaching methods demanded - see (1);

    6) A complex system of management that seems designed to provide cushy numbers for bureaucrats rather than decent education for children - also see (1).

    Now if Sunak were, instead of just coming up with dense ideas on post-16, to come up with at least questions to why these happened, and then try to find answers, we might get somewhere.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728
    Of course, one other thing to say is that actually continual training in maths would not be at all a bad idea, but rather than linking it to sixth form it should be a lifelong learning thing. You get a job with more specific skills in say, trigonometry so you want to improve them? Fine. Local college will offer a month long course in the evenings for free.

    But lifelong learning is another area where this government is appallingly weak.

    Not a huge fan, but Angela Rayner did have some interesting ideas on it that Labour, at least, should be exploring further.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,727
    His first major address since becoming PM. This is so detached from our current national priorities that I'm beginning to wonder whether he realises he is actually Prime Minister.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1610548517722030080

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64158179
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    As somebody who did both A Level Maths and Further Maths and thought about reading Mathematics at University I am very pro Maths so good on Sunak for focussing on Maths.

    Not sure the country is in the mood for it though.

    Well done to you (genuinely) but that's just the problem. Someone, private-educated, who is good at Maths wants to impose it on everyone else. I was very good at English. Am I supposed to impose that on everyone with a maths-brain? Or those who are brilliant at drama or art or languages or design or sport?

    This country has a zillion more important things on which to focus, not someone's pet subject. This just shows him up to be a student politician. Out of touch, ideological, aloof.

    They are a bunch of fucking idiots.
    The other thing that is being forgotten here is just how intensive our post-16 courses, especially the new ones, actually are. There is a reason why only people doing further maths routinely do four a-levels these days. Adding a compulsory subject on top, especially for modern apprenticeships where the college time has to be quite limited, would be a nightmare.

    It's entirely typical of the whole government's approach to education. 'We all did well in maths at post-16. We are talented and successful people. Therefore, the key to making people talented and successful is to make them do more maths.'
    Can't escape the feeling that the government's thinking hasn't got further than:

    1 City quants are fabulously wealthy and have private healthcare.

    2 If everyone in Britain was a city quant they would all have private healthcare and we wouldn't have to worry about the NHS any more.

    3 Therefore, everyone needs to study maths.
    This is a bit unfair. From what Casino says upthread it sounds like this is a result of a serious report that's considered the issue, rather than something made up in ten minutes in Downing Street. The extension of compulsory Maths education to 18 is likely only to be the most eye-catching of many proposals, rather than the main policy itself.
    Proposed by Gove in 2011. How is implementation of that going?
    Really badly?

    I'm not defending the entire record of Tory government 2010-2023.

    It's just Casino's post made me realise I was a little bit harsh in my criticism of this specific proposal and the associated report. It might form the basis of something worthwhile that the future Starmer government can implement.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is the maths announcement going to be derailed cos they didn't count the number of teachers?

    I'm told by no10 that the Maths announcement is "fully thought through".

    Headteachers union @ASCL say it might exacerbate the already "chronic national shortage" of maths teachers & must be "based on solid research, not a pet project"

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1610541249588563968

    I totally disagree with the ASCL.

    They said 'might' instead of 'would.'
    Rough numbers...

    It depends on how many hours a week this new maths teaching involves, but the Sunak plan is likely to need 5000 to 10000 extra maths teachers.

    The government currently aims to recruit 2000 mathematicians into teacher training each year, and got 1800 last year.

    This is why an awful lot of maths lessons aren't actually taught by actual maths teachers.
    So in other words the problem isn't that kids need more maths, its that they need maths. So we need to make teaching an attractive profession to both get into and stay in - something the Tories are doing in reverse as with everything else.

    Then again, HY and that beinn guy - and possibly Big_G - will point out that I live north of the wall which is devolved which proves there is no crisis in England so THERE. Which is 1+1=11 territory...
    Big G has spent most of the last 48 hours bemoaning crises in the NHS on Labour's watch, but I haven't seen him say that means there is no crisis in England.
    HY said that there isn't a crisis and we should stop asking for money and what is needed is reform. Not that his party have been in office for 12 years and enacted massive reforms in that time. Then Beinnthingy started foaming about where I live and who is in government, which is a Big_G trope.

    "Ah but what about Labour-run Wales" has been a deflection for a long time. And apparently SNP-run Scotland which as someone who literally stood for office against the SNP I find amusing when it is thrown at me.

    What is the purpose of these deflections? To muddy the water, to whatabout away from the hell that is the NHS. The idea that Scotland and Wales can somehow completely avoid the structural and financial crisis in England is for the birds. Having just seen NHS Scotland in action in rural Aberdeenshire and then into Aberdeen with my dad, whilst they are struggling through the winter it doesn't appear to be remotely as dire as reports from England.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is the maths announcement going to be derailed cos they didn't count the number of teachers?

    I'm told by no10 that the Maths announcement is "fully thought through".

    Headteachers union @ASCL say it might exacerbate the already "chronic national shortage" of maths teachers & must be "based on solid research, not a pet project"

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1610541249588563968

    I totally disagree with the ASCL.

    They said 'might' instead of 'would.'
    Rough numbers...

    It depends on how many hours a week this new maths teaching involves, but the Sunak plan is likely to need 5000 to 10000 extra maths teachers.

    The government currently aims to recruit 2000 mathematicians into teacher training each year, and got 1800 last year.

    This is why an awful lot of maths lessons aren't actually taught by actual maths teachers.
    The level of gaslighting from this government is incredible.

    Crisis? What crisis? In the NHS.

    Crisis? What crisis? in teacher training and retention.

    Isn't Rishi supposed to be good at maths?

    It does seem so profoundly irrelevant and disconnected I feel like I must be missing something.

    The country is in the grip of multiple co-morbid social and economic crises so let's make the slines do more maths at school.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728
    edited January 2023
    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is the maths announcement going to be derailed cos they didn't count the number of teachers?

    I'm told by no10 that the Maths announcement is "fully thought through".

    Headteachers union @ASCL say it might exacerbate the already "chronic national shortage" of maths teachers & must be "based on solid research, not a pet project"

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1610541249588563968

    I totally disagree with the ASCL.

    They said 'might' instead of 'would.'
    Rough numbers...

    It depends on how many hours a week this new maths teaching involves, but the Sunak plan is likely to need 5000 to 10000 extra maths teachers.

    The government currently aims to recruit 2000 mathematicians into teacher training each year, and got 1800 last year.

    This is why an awful lot of maths lessons aren't actually taught by actual maths teachers.
    The level of gaslighting from this government is incredible.

    Crisis? What crisis? In the NHS.

    Crisis? What crisis? in teacher training and retention.

    Isn't Rishi supposed to be good at maths?

    It does seem so profoundly irrelevant and disconnected I feel like I must be missing something.

    The country is in the grip of multiple co-morbid social and economic crises so let's make the slines do more maths at school.
    You ever read Gibbon's novel The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire?

    His Christian characters, amiably discussing the Trinity as the Empire imploded around them, are an example of it. The problems are so intractable that they decide to focus on irrelevancies instead.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is the maths announcement going to be derailed cos they didn't count the number of teachers?

    I'm told by no10 that the Maths announcement is "fully thought through".

    Headteachers union @ASCL say it might exacerbate the already "chronic national shortage" of maths teachers & must be "based on solid research, not a pet project"

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1610541249588563968

    I totally disagree with the ASCL.

    They said 'might' instead of 'would.'
    Rough numbers...

    It depends on how many hours a week this new maths teaching involves, but the Sunak plan is likely to need 5000 to 10000 extra maths teachers.

    The government currently aims to recruit 2000 mathematicians into teacher training each year, and got 1800 last year.

    This is why an awful lot of maths lessons aren't actually taught by actual maths teachers.
    So in other words the problem isn't that kids need more maths, its that they need maths. So we need to make teaching an attractive profession to both get into and stay in - something the Tories are doing in reverse as with everything else.

    Then again, HY and that beinn guy - and possibly Big_G - will point out that I live north of the wall which is devolved which proves there is no crisis in England so THERE. Which is 1+1=11 territory...
    The real question is, why is maths GCSE not considered adequate?

    And the answers could be:

    1) Lack of specialist teachers - which is a long standing problem, made worse by this government;

    2) A badly written curriculum - which is the responsibility of Nick Gibb, a member of this government;

    3) A joke of an assessment system - ibid.

    4) A broken inspection system - which has undoubtedly been caused by the decision to appoint a personal friend of Nicky Morgan as chief, instead of somebody with a functioning brain or even a limited knowledge of education;

    5) Classes that are too large for the teaching methods demanded - see (1);

    6) A complex system of management that seems designed to provide cushy numbers for bureaucrats rather than decent education for children - also see (1).

    Now if Sunak were, instead of just coming up with dense ideas on post-16, to come up with at least questions to why these happened, and then try to find answers, we might get somewhere.
    None of those are problems. And if they are problems you will find they were the doing of the Last Labour Government which is why 12 Tory years have done nothing to fix Labour's mess. Because they can't or something.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728
    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,727
    Exam question: if a Government blows £30bn on a failed economic experiment, what does that mean for the rest of us? https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1610551426329247744/photo/1
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,911

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is the maths announcement going to be derailed cos they didn't count the number of teachers?

    I'm told by no10 that the Maths announcement is "fully thought through".

    Headteachers union @ASCL say it might exacerbate the already "chronic national shortage" of maths teachers & must be "based on solid research, not a pet project"

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1610541249588563968

    I totally disagree with the ASCL.

    They said 'might' instead of 'would.'
    Rough numbers...

    It depends on how many hours a week this new maths teaching involves, but the Sunak plan is likely to need 5000 to 10000 extra maths teachers.

    The government currently aims to recruit 2000 mathematicians into teacher training each year, and got 1800 last year.

    This is why an awful lot of maths lessons aren't actually taught by actual maths teachers.
    So in other words the problem isn't that kids need more maths, its that they need maths. So we need to make teaching an attractive profession to both get into and stay in - something the Tories are doing in reverse as with everything else.

    Then again, HY and that beinn guy - and possibly Big_G - will point out that I live north of the wall which is devolved which proves there is no crisis in England so THERE. Which is 1+1=11 territory...
    The real question is, why is maths GCSE not considered adequate?

    And the answers could be:

    1) Lack of specialist teachers - which is a long standing problem, made worse by this government;

    2) A badly written curriculum - which is the responsibility of Nick Gibb, a member of this government;

    3) A joke of an assessment system - ibid.

    4) A broken inspection system - which has undoubtedly been caused by the decision to appoint a personal friend of Nicky Morgan as chief, instead of somebody with a functioning brain or even a limited knowledge of education;

    5) Classes that are too large for the teaching methods demanded - see (1);

    6) A complex system of management that seems designed to provide cushy numbers for bureaucrats rather than decent education for children - also see (1).

    Now if Sunak were, instead of just coming up with dense ideas on post-16, to come up with at least questions to why these happened, and then try to find answers, we might get somewhere.
    None of those are problems. And if they are problems you will find they were the doing of the Last Labour Government which is why 12 Tory years have done nothing to fix Labour's mess. Because they can't or something.
    It's the fault of the blob, or woke or the liberal metropolitan elite, or something.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is the maths announcement going to be derailed cos they didn't count the number of teachers?

    I'm told by no10 that the Maths announcement is "fully thought through".

    Headteachers union @ASCL say it might exacerbate the already "chronic national shortage" of maths teachers & must be "based on solid research, not a pet project"

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1610541249588563968

    I totally disagree with the ASCL.

    They said 'might' instead of 'would.'
    Rough numbers...

    It depends on how many hours a week this new maths teaching involves, but the Sunak plan is likely to need 5000 to 10000 extra maths teachers.

    The government currently aims to recruit 2000 mathematicians into teacher training each year, and got 1800 last year.

    This is why an awful lot of maths lessons aren't actually taught by actual maths teachers.
    The level of gaslighting from this government is incredible.

    Crisis? What crisis? In the NHS.

    Crisis? What crisis? in teacher training and retention.

    Isn't Rishi supposed to be good at maths?

    It does seem so profoundly irrelevant and disconnected I feel like I must be missing something.

    The country is in the grip of multiple co-morbid social and economic crises so let's make the slines do more maths at school.
    Just a thought? Could this sudden enthusiasm for maths lessons be an admission that ministers never did get their pretty little heads around R values and exponential growth?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
    After 16 it gets a lot tensor, but I don’t want to take away from you.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
    After 16 it gets a lot tensor, but I don’t want to take away from you.
    Really? I decided to leave that for others.

    There's so much pi you can only have a little bit.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,050
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
    No need to be obtuse. We need an acute angle of analysis on this.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,727

    Just a thought? Could this sudden enthusiasm for maths lessons be an admission that ministers never did get their pretty little heads around R values and exponential growth?

    Or graphs


  • ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
    Very sensible. Here's one of our absent friends, quoting Isaac Asimov to make a wise point I had forgotten about. Everyone who studies maths has a point where it goes from pleasantly easy to impossibly hard. Once you cross that threshold, it doesn't really matter how much effort you put in, or how well you are taught. Maths suddenly just gets too difficult and too abstract.

    https://twitter.com/AlastairMeeks/status/1610550405301239808

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
    No need to be obtuse. We need an acute angle of analysis on this.
    Nice try at a new angle.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    How is Brexit going? latest...

    EXCL: Ministers have signed £200k contract with disaster response charity to help drivers stuck in lorry queues in Kent.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/04/disaster-response-charity-enlisted-to-aid-drivers-stuck-in-uk-queues-for-channel?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Totally normal country...
    "No new barriers to trade"....apart from a shedload of new paperwork and a 48-hour seventeen-mile lorry queue that is visible from outer space!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728
    edited January 2023

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
    Very sensible. Here's one of our absent friends, quoting Isaac Asimov to make a wise point I had forgotten about. Everyone who studies maths has a point where it goes from pleasantly easy to impossibly hard. Once you cross that threshold, it doesn't really matter how much effort you put in, or how well you are taught. Maths suddenly just gets too difficult and too abstract.

    https://twitter.com/AlastairMeeks/status/1610550405301239808

    I just found it rather dull, to be honest. I prefer things that aren't theoretical.

    There is a reason why I did much better at physics and economics than maths, even though there's so much maths in them.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,838
    The news report on the radiocameout with "8.5 million people can only do maths to primary school level" followed by "maths compulsory to 18".

    It strikes me as exceedingly unlikely that someone who has not progressed their maths to exceed that of a primary school child by the age of 16 will benefit from an additional two years of mathematics.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
    No need to be obtuse. We need an acute angle of analysis on this.
    Nice try at a new angle.
    Time to log off.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,727
    I’d like to see the working out on this one Rishi. Whatever the problem is, I’m not 100% sure more maths is the answer. Another example of not being able to relate to anything outside of your own experience, highlighted always so well by the Tories
    https://twitter.com/LeonaONeill1/status/1610554683663450114
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64158179
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,261
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
    Very sensible. Here's one of our absent friends, quoting Isaac Asimov to make a wise point I had forgotten about. Everyone who studies maths has a point where it goes from pleasantly easy to impossibly hard. Once you cross that threshold, it doesn't really matter how much effort you put in, or how well you are taught. Maths suddenly just gets too difficult and too abstract.

    https://twitter.com/AlastairMeeks/status/1610550405301239808

    I just found it rather dull, to be honest. I prefer things that aren't theoretical.

    There is a reason why I did much better at physics and economics than maths, even though there's so much maths in them.
    Curiously, I was the opposire. I was comfortable with abstract maths (point-set topology, my PhD subject, is about as abstract as you can get) but found that practical applications added a complication that I wasn't any good at. Your preference is more useful to society - I'm sadly convinced my PhD did nobody any good at all, except possibly me.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,727
    Foxy said:

    If a community like PB with niche interests in probability, statistics and spreadsheets cannot back this policy, then who in the real world will?

    The Government couldn't even find a minister willing to defend it on the broadcast round this morning
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,727
    Labour: "No 10 have revealed they have nothing to offer the country except...double maths". Who sits in a meeting and says "Rishi, what the voters want more than anything is to know how you feel about maths".
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1610555115722645504
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,727
    As George Tomlinson said: "The minister knows nowt about curriculum" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64158179
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
    Very sensible. Here's one of our absent friends, quoting Isaac Asimov to make a wise point I had forgotten about. Everyone who studies maths has a point where it goes from pleasantly easy to impossibly hard. Once you cross that threshold, it doesn't really matter how much effort you put in, or how well you are taught. Maths suddenly just gets too difficult and too abstract.

    https://twitter.com/AlastairMeeks/status/1610550405301239808

    I just found it rather dull, to be honest. I prefer things that aren't theoretical.

    There is a reason why I did much better at physics and economics than maths, even though there's so much maths in them.
    Curiously, I was the opposire. I was comfortable with abstract maths (point-set topology, my PhD subject, is about as abstract as you can get) but found that practical applications added a complication that I wasn't any good at. Your preference is more useful to society - I'm sadly convinced my PhD did nobody any good at all, except possibly me.
    I'm not sure mine did either, although people are still reading it and sending me nice messages about it.

    But here we come back to another problem with the government and indeed our education system more widely. It's far too prone to assuming everyone is the same, deep down - good at academic subjects taught in particular ways. Because that's what our leaders were good at and they want us all to be as good as them.

    It is, in fact, perfectly well-intentioned but it breaks down when you realise even among very able people like you, I and indeed pretty much everyone else on this highly-educated and will-informed forum there are significant differences in approach and outcome which cannot be accommodated in a rigid structure. How much more complex when you add in those who have dyslexia or dyscalculia and literally cannot access the exams they are told they must do if they're not to be a failure?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.

    Sunak's maths approach is not inherently bad, but it is irrelevant to the primary concerns of the electorate and sounds... odd. Not Truss' energy wibbling when asked about borrowing/inflation/mortgage costs weird, but still out of kilter with the general public discourse of the minute. And that's not exactly a subtle or hidden conversation people are having (economic, and, lately, A&E).
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,911
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
    Very sensible. Here's one of our absent friends, quoting Isaac Asimov to make a wise point I had forgotten about. Everyone who studies maths has a point where it goes from pleasantly easy to impossibly hard. Once you cross that threshold, it doesn't really matter how much effort you put in, or how well you are taught. Maths suddenly just gets too difficult and too abstract.

    https://twitter.com/AlastairMeeks/status/1610550405301239808

    I just found it rather dull, to be honest. I prefer things that aren't theoretical.

    There is a reason why I did much better at physics and economics than maths, even though there's so much maths in them.
    Maths belongs in physics but there's too much of it in economics these days.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728

    Good morning, everyone.

    Sunak's maths approach is not inherently bad, but it is irrelevant to the primary concerns of the electorate and sounds... odd. Not Truss' energy wibbling when asked about borrowing/inflation/mortgage costs weird, but still out of kilter with the general public discourse of the minute. And that's not exactly a subtle or hidden conversation people are having (economic, and, lately, A&E).

    I disagree.

    It is inherently bad because it is based on a damaging misunderstanding.

    And if ever implemented (it won't be) it would be a disaster for that reason.

    It would be nice, just for once, to have leaders who bothered to actually understand matters in education before coming up with policies.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,838
    edited January 2023
    Foxy said:

    If a community like PB with niche interests in probability, statistics and spreadsheets cannot back this policy, then who in the real world will?

    It might be a good idea, but I've yet to see compelling reasoning for it. I studied maths at uni fwiw.
    One thing it definitely won't do is fix innumeracy for the lowest centiles going forward.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
    Very sensible. Here's one of our absent friends, quoting Isaac Asimov to make a wise point I had forgotten about. Everyone who studies maths has a point where it goes from pleasantly easy to impossibly hard. Once you cross that threshold, it doesn't really matter how much effort you put in, or how well you are taught. Maths suddenly just gets too difficult and too abstract.

    https://twitter.com/AlastairMeeks/status/1610550405301239808

    I just found it rather dull, to be honest. I prefer things that aren't theoretical.

    There is a reason why I did much better at physics and economics than maths, even though there's so much maths in them.
    Maths belongs in physics but there's too much of it in economics these days.
    Really? I found plenty of it when I was studying it 20 years ago.

    But of course, I never went into banking...
  • Oh this is such an indictment on the GOP.



  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    Pulpstar said:

    The news report on the radiocameout with "8.5 million people can only do maths to primary school level" followed by "maths compulsory to 18".

    It strikes me as exceedingly unlikely that someone who has not progressed their maths to exceed that of a primary school child by the age of 16 will benefit from an additional two years of mathematics.

    Yes, that was my initial reaction. On reflection, though, if this is a more comprehensive look at improving Maths education as a whole it will hopefully include a lot to improve Maths education at primary level, but that's naturally not going to be as eye-catching as extending compulsory Maths education to age 18.

    It doesn't seem controversial to suggest that Britain's Maths education could do with improving. This could be the sort of thing that will help to make Britain a better country in 10-20 years time, if you imagine a possible future where Maths education noticeably improves.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Pulpstar said:

    The news report on the radiocameout with "8.5 million people can only do maths to primary school level" followed by "maths compulsory to 18".

    It strikes me as exceedingly unlikely that someone who has not progressed their maths to exceed that of a primary school child by the age of 16 will benefit from an additional two years of mathematics.

    I want to know what's going to be dropped to make the time available.

    And how are they planning to pay the teachers required because it won't be cheap.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,260
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
    No need to be obtuse. We need an acute angle of analysis on this.
    Nice try at a new angle.
    Time to log off.
    Not for ydoethur - he's a prime exponent of getting to the root of things.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728

    Oh this is such an indictment on the GOP.



    It's a good job the Republicans know who their real enemies are.

    Well, it is for the Dems anyway.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Eigenvalue the maths within physics.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,007
    Heathener said:

    It's typical of these ideological nutjobs that they can't get their heads out of their collective arses and are STAGGERINGLY unintelligent in that they can't recognise that their own private-educated schooling might not compute across to the state sector.

    No tory should be in charge of the NHS. Period.

    And no private-educated tory should be anywhere near education. Period.

    The prejudice in this post is off the scale.

    The natural outcome of this sort of bigotry is that you'll confine rigorous education to the private sector and only the private sector.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,911
    ydoethur said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Sunak's maths approach is not inherently bad, but it is irrelevant to the primary concerns of the electorate and sounds... odd. Not Truss' energy wibbling when asked about borrowing/inflation/mortgage costs weird, but still out of kilter with the general public discourse of the minute. And that's not exactly a subtle or hidden conversation people are having (economic, and, lately, A&E).

    I disagree.

    It is inherently bad because it is based on a damaging misunderstanding.

    And if ever implemented (it won't be) it would be a disaster for that reason.

    It would be nice, just for once, to have leaders who bothered to actually understand matters in education before coming up with policies.
    Education really is a subject where everyone is an expert (or thinks they are). The problem is compounded by the fact that many of those pontificating on the subject, and implementing it across the state sector, have never actually been anywhere near a state school.
    A horrible thought is starting to cross my mind - is Sunak actually a worse PM than Johnson?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,727

    It doesn't seem controversial to suggest that Britain's Maths education could do with improving. This could be the sort of thing that will help to make Britain a better country in 10-20 years time, if you imagine a possible future where Maths education noticeably improves.

    Except what has been trailed so far is not 'better' maths education, just 'more' maths education.

    If the announcement was extensive maths tutoring for all ages you might have a point.

    But it isn't...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
    No need to be obtuse. We need an acute angle of analysis on this.
    Nice try at a new angle.
    Time to log off.
    Not for ydoethur - he's a prime exponent of getting to the root of things.
    Are you calling me a square? :wink:
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
    No need to be obtuse. We need an acute angle of analysis on this.
    Nice try at a new angle.
    Time to log off.
    Not for ydoethur - he's a prime exponent of getting to the root of things.
    Are you calling me a square? :wink:
    Irrational and complex.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728
    edited January 2023

    Heathener said:

    It's typical of these ideological nutjobs that they can't get their heads out of their collective arses and are STAGGERINGLY unintelligent in that they can't recognise that their own private-educated schooling might not compute across to the state sector.

    No tory should be in charge of the NHS. Period.

    And no private-educated tory should be anywhere near education. Period.

    The prejudice in this post is off the scale.

    The natural outcome of this sort of bigotry is that you'll confine rigorous education to the private sector and only the private sector.
    Hate to break it to you but there is a reason why most further maths students at A-level are in the private sector. It's due to the weakness of GCSE Maths, which means it's really hard to do A-level further maths unless you do Level 2 further maths, which is mostly confined to the private sector...

    Ironically, of course, if this was implemented it would only be private schools that could refuse to teach everyone maths...
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Food inflation at a record 13.3%.

    Families will be wondering whether they will ever feel better off under the Tories.

    With the growing cost of the weekly shop just one factor in this, the answer will be no.

    Britain deserves better than this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jan/04/record-133-uk-food-inflation-raises-fears-of-another-difficult-year

    Shop at Lidl.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,728
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
    No need to be obtuse. We need an acute angle of analysis on this.
    Nice try at a new angle.
    Time to log off.
    Not for ydoethur - he's a prime exponent of getting to the root of things.
    Are you calling me a square? :wink:
    Irrational and complex.
    Oi! I happen to be very rational, thank you.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,050

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    95% of the maths I was taught I never used after school, the other 20% I could do on a calculator.

    So you can't add up? :lol:
    You’re off on a tangent, a bad sine.
    That's cos I only did maths to 16.
    Very sensible. Here's one of our absent friends, quoting Isaac Asimov to make a wise point I had forgotten about. Everyone who studies maths has a point where it goes from pleasantly easy to impossibly hard. Once you cross that threshold, it doesn't really matter how much effort you put in, or how well you are taught. Maths suddenly just gets too difficult and too abstract.

    https://twitter.com/AlastairMeeks/status/1610550405301239808

    I just found it rather dull, to be honest. I prefer things that aren't theoretical.

    There is a reason why I did much better at physics and economics than maths, even though there's so much maths in them.
    Curiously, I was the opposire. I was comfortable with abstract maths (point-set topology, my PhD subject, is about as abstract as you can get) but found that practical applications added a complication that I wasn't any good at. Your preference is more useful to society - I'm sadly convinced my PhD did nobody any good at all, except possibly me.
    Same for me. I did Maths A level and loved the pure maths, found mechanics and statistics a bit of a grind. It is the stats though that have been useful to me in life.

    I don't have a problem with improving the quality of maths in British schools, indeed strongly for it. I don't see how extending maths teaching to 18 helps though.

    Maths should be embedded into subjects that youngsters want to learn, with practical examples such as book keeping and accounts as part of vocational courses in beauty or plumbing. My experience of boys not interested in maths is that they have a deep understanding of goal difference and the probability of Arsenal winning the League.

    The key to all good teaching seems to me not to be down to this style or that technique, though training in all these are useful, but rather down to motivation. A teacher needs the motivation to engage the students, and the student needs the motivation to learn. For both parties there also needs to be an absence of distractions to give space for the motivation to grow. A teacher being constantly battered by demands or a pupil being hungry or bullied do not have that space.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,007
    Foxy said:

    If a community like PB with niche interests in probability, statistics and spreadsheets cannot back this policy, then who in the real world will?

    I back it. And logically so should everyone else - it's raw emotion against the Tories driving opposition to this.

    I did an analysis the other day of about 80 regular PB posters and a very clear majority of those posting at the moment are of a centre-left/left persuasion whilst centre-right posters (which narrowly outweight both combined) have gone back to lurking. The inverse of how it was here in 2008-2009.

    It's a morale thing, like seeing 9 Lib Dem boards up in Hyacinth Avenue, interpolating, and thinking everyone is going to vote Lib Dem - but it's not representative.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,007
    In the desire to stick it to the Tories we've got a "fuck maths" attitude on here this morning.

    I despair.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    Foxy said:

    If a community like PB with niche interests in probability, statistics and spreadsheets cannot back this policy, then who in the real world will?

    I back it. And logically so should everyone else - it's raw emotion against the Tories driving opposition to this.

    I did an analysis the other day of about 80 regular PB posters and a very clear majority of those posting at the moment are of a centre-left/left persuasion whilst centre-right posters (which narrowly outweight both combined) have gone back to lurking. The inverse of how it was here in 2008-2009.

    It's a morale thing, like seeing 9 Lib Dem boards up in Hyacinth Avenue, interpolating, and thinking everyone is going to vote Lib Dem - but it's not representative.
    As a matter of interest, where do you classify me on the centre-left <-> centre-right split?
This discussion has been closed.