Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

It is becoming harder to see how Truss survives – politicalbetting.com

1567911

Comments

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    TimS said:

    Switzerland and Austria are very small, landlocked, surrounded by major military states like France, Germany and Italy and likely to suffer significant fallout, not agriculturally self-sufficient and almost impossible to get out of once there is there's a nuclear conflagration.

    Either one would be a prison. Switzerland might even close its borders to foreigners. Neither would have much space for refugees, millions of whom would be fleeing from surrounding countries. Far better to be on the edge of a continent in an agricultural country with a maritime escape route.
    Portugal is in NATO, therefore Lisbon and Porto would likely be nuked by Putin, you would need to be in very rural Portugal to have a chance
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    TimS said:

    I'm thinking of adding Portugal to my nuclear escape list. Wasn't previously on there because it's a NATO member, but aside from one minor facility near Lisbon and bases on the Azores it doesn't look a hugely target rich environment. Why would Russia bother?

    Has all the other advantages: visa-free travel, cheap, agriculturally self-sufficient, clean Westerlies, easy and quick to get to. Would probably fly to Porto, far enough South from the somewhat target richer environment of Spanish Galicia.

    Madeira?
  • I think you are right - personally i think the western world is done for if a nuke of any kind is used . However like it or not , it needs a negotiation and tactical nukes are a card in putins hand , the west shoudl use the threat to offer something in return for not using and start a process of de-escalation . Nobody can win a war like this and at some point it has to be de-escalated by both sides.
    The "something" the west should offer Putin is "if you don't use nukes, we won't directly engage in this conflict ourselves" which is what has been done so far.

    We can indirectly tool up and train up the Ukrainians to fight for themselves, just as they tooled up the Vietcong to fight the Americans, but we won't use our own soldiers to do the fighting. That is the offer.

    De-escalation happens when Russia withdraw from all of Ukraine, which of course includes Crimea, just as the USA had to withdraw from Vietnam.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Selebian said:

    Does seem an area where the market should decide? If overseas students want to pay top money for substandard courses in inadequate institutions then surely we let them crack on? Competition will mean that only the best courses and institutions survive. :innocent:

    (Our uni has historically sucked somewhat at attracting international students, by the standards of near peer institutions. Maybe we don't offer enough substandard courses... Did however leave us far less exposed to drops in numbers during Covid).
    Ha. From my pov, it's market values that has kind of destroyed higher education. Maybe people want bang for their buck and government can't be seen to fund every 18yo education for another three to five years, but the focus on making young people career ready, on earnings after graduating, on all this stuff is just... dire. Like, where will we get our next great poet, great philosophers, great artists if we aren't funding everyone with the opportunity to learn and do these things? Where we did before; only the elite could afford to be Renaissance men...

    The benefits of a higher education is a more rounded population - young people who have had the opportunity to mingle with people from across the country, across the world even, and come into contact with different ideas. It eases them into adulthood - a middle ground between being taken care of their parents completely and being expected to go out into the world and survive. And it is also good for people to just learn for the sake of learning, to enjoy their subject, to have the opportunity to get more in depth on topics.

    If education pre 16 is just setting up kids with what they need to know as a baseline, HE and FE is that ability to do some self actualisation, to indulge in curiosity which is so important to the individual experience of being human. I don't think it should be mandatory, and I don't disagree with those (like my sister) who preferred to go straight into work and such, but I think the experience is valuable for the individual and society as a whole beyond just "does this make good workers" and "are they making good money after graduating".
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    I see the PB reactionaries are doing their best to play into Putin's nuclear scare mongering. Not one of them has yet explained to me how, if Putin is so weak he has to back down from a full mobilization announcement he can force through nuclear war.
  • HYUFD said:

    Putin has made clear he is ready to go to MAD if Russia is attacked and he now includes the 4 disputed regions in Russia as per the ceremony last week
    But they're not part of Russia, so if he goes MAD he goes MAD. We nuke them back, that's how MAD works.

    Those territories are not part of Russia.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,556
    Phil said:

    If she’s been arrested under suspicion of an indictable offense, then yes, absolutely.

    In that situation, you bring someone in to a controlled environment where they can be interviewed alongside their solicitor if they wish (and you always want a solicitor) & that interview recorded according to the PACE guidelines. You do this both for the integrity of the investigation & the safety of everyone involved: the investigating officers, the suspect & their lawyer.

    Someones home is a totally inappropriate place to interview someone who is being formally investigated by the state under suspicion of having carried out a criminial offense: There are so many ways that could go horribly wrong for everyone involved.
    Yes reading it back it is obvious that she was arrested.

    As for the seriousness of swatting, I'm not so sure we should importing US-levels of concern about it. Why for a non-violent offence (in the UK) why couldn't they have invited her for interview at her local nick? Why did they have to get her off the streets that minute?
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,080
    And so the “government” heads towards its early grave..

  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    I think you are right - personally i think the western world is done for if a nuke of any kind is used . However like it or not , it needs a negotiation and tactical nukes are a card in putins hand , the west shoudl use the threat to offer something in return for not using and start a process of de-escalation . Nobody can win a war like this and at some point it has to be de-escalated by both sides.
    "Nobody can win a war like this" from someone who previously said that we should force Ukraine to surrender given Russia was so certain to win.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053
    Scott_xP said:

    Suella Braverman says she was in favour of the 45p tax cut

    “I am disappointed by the subsequent reversal”

    “I am disappointed that members of our party staged a coup and undermined the PM in an unprofessional way”

    https://twitter.com/emsferg/status/1577268773022666752

    Are MPs all idiots after all? I've always said most are actually very able people, but they seem to have no conception of parliamentary support and that the party leaders need to gain support of parliament, including their own side, not just expect it.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005

    Could also be the carbon capture / blue hydrogen programmes getting the chop.
    I thought HS2 was a waste of money. However they might as well finish it now. Truss only has to have a short walk from Chequers to the top of Coombe Hill to get a stunning view over the Buckinghamshire countryside and see the very obvious HS2 scar on the land. The environmental damage has been done along with vasts amount of money spent so it might as well be finished.
  • The "something" the west should offer Putin is "if you don't use nukes, we won't directly engage in this conflict ourselves" which is what has been done so far.

    We can indirectly tool up and train up the Ukrainians to fight for themselves, just as they tooled up the Vietcong to fight the Americans, but we won't use our own soldiers to do the fighting. That is the offer.

    De-escalation happens when Russia withdraw from all of Ukraine, which of course includes Crimea, just as the USA had to withdraw from Vietnam.
    But that is the current position and the war is escalating not de-escalating. Bellicose rhetoric however morally right is dangerous when what at is at stake is the lives of hundreds of millions of Europeans.americans and russians . All that culture , all that history gone for the sake of being a bit too stubborn and rigid in wanting to be morally right. Sometimes you need to back down a little to gat a bully to as well (when that bully can kill you)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053
    Jonathan said:

    Exclusive recording of aliens landing in Siberia, intervening in the current global conflict...


    Sad story of Russian defences there, down to their last artillery piece.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 908
    Jonathan said:

    Exclusive recording of aliens landing in Siberia, intervening in the current global conflict...


    Has anyone been playing Terra Invicta? Nick Palmer described a tabletop game he was involved with recently that has a similar premise. The game even starts in 2022, with the Russian Ukrainian War underway. Problem is it makes my potato of a laptop scream!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,153
    HYUFD said:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-signs-decree-mobilisation-says-west-wants-destroy-russia-2022-09-21/

    He now includes the 4 disputed regions in Russia
    He doesn't even make it clear in the sense that Truss made it clear she was sticking to the 45p abolition.

    Russia still hasn't officially decided what the borders of the regions they've 'annexed' will be.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,556
    Phil said:

    Justine Roberts (Mumsnet founder) had armed police at her door at 3am because someone had called claiming to be her & that there was a gunman prowling around the house back in 2015. That’s swatting.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33985706

    Now, UK police don’t generally turn up tooled up & ready to shoot first & ask questions later (fortunately for us) but if armed police turn up at your door thinking there’s an armed individual on the property then I’d say you’re at a significantly higher risk of being shot than if that never happens.
    True and maybe it will take off maybe it won't. And I see the danger. But atm it's not a thing in the UK. And no one said that the Mumsnet founder was armed themselves.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    darkage said:

    "A thread about my evening.

    Teatime. I was doing a roast chicken. Knock at the door. Two coppers. There’s been an allegation of harassment and malicious comms and we’ve come to arrest you."


    https://twitter.com/CF_Farrow/status/1577092705154666496

    That’s utterly horrific.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    But that is the current position and the war is escalating not de-escalating. Bellicose rhetoric however morally right is dangerous when what at is at stake is the lives of hundreds of millions of Europeans.americans and russians . All that culture , all that history gone for the sake of being a bit too stubborn and rigid in wanting to be morally right. Sometimes you need to back down a little to gat a bully to as well (when that bully can kill you)
    The bully can't kill us. He is weak and doesn't have full control of his government. He can't even call up a full mobilization. Those that he needs to carry out his orders value the lives of their families too much.
  • WillG said:

    "Nobody can win a war like this" from someone who previously said that we should force Ukraine to surrender given Russia was so certain to win.
    if you are going to make statements like that then please dig out my quote as I can assure you I have never said that
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053

    But they're not part of Russia, so if he goes MAD he goes MAD. We nuke them back, that's how MAD works.

    Those territories are not part of Russia.
    Following the logic its been noted if he claimed London as Russisn territory we would have to vacate it.

    It probably has more Russian money and family members of the Putin inner circle than the Donbas.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,249
    WillG said:

    "Nobody can win a war like this" from someone who previously said that we should force Ukraine to surrender given Russia was so certain to win.
    Russia is a broken reed that pierces the hand that rests on it.

    Russia has lost this war, and that has been clear for weeks now.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    We have no mandate from the people to do this.

    Conservative Gov elected on basis of a manifesto, it’s how democracy works.

    People voted in ‘19 on the policy promises we made (and for Boris).

    If we don’t want to deliver on the deal, the promises, we need a fresh mandate.


    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1577295872517341184

    https://twitter.com/talktv/status/1577276325634654209
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,507
    edited October 2022

    whether the police did this by their current protocols or not , it seems outlandishly OTT and intrusive for a social media post of some kind to result in this . The law is a bit of a mess in this respect
    KiwiFarms is more than just social media. If she’s been posting on KiwiFarms then she’s associating herself with people who are quite happy to dox, swat & carry out all kinds of harrassment, both online & offline, of anyone they think deserves it. Any mistaken identity could lead to you being associated with some nasty stuff, even if you were in fact completely innocent.

    For the moment, we only have her side of the story, and I’m sure her lawyer has told her to shut up in very clear terms. It will be up to the police to prove they have a case: Innocent unless & until proven guilty applies.
  • WillG said:

    I see the PB reactionaries are doing their best to play into Putin's nuclear scare mongering. Not one of them has yet explained to me how, if Putin is so weak he has to back down from a full mobilization announcement he can force through nuclear war.

    I would not like to test it out though
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    TOPPING said:

    Yes reading it back it is obvious that she was arrested.

    As for the seriousness of swatting, I'm not so sure we should importing US-levels of concern about it. Why for a non-violent offence (in the UK) why couldn't they have invited her for interview at her local nick? Why did they have to get her off the streets that minute?
    Okay, not swatting. But if someone was following you around in the world, shouting at you wherever you went, and you ask them to stop and tell the police you're being harassed and they continue, that is harassment. That is what happens online - it's just easier to hide your identity, or have multiple identities, or use sock puppets or whatever.

    If a poster here, for example, told someone to kill themselves every time they posted, and found their associated twitter and did the same there, or found their facebook or private email and did the same there - that is beyond a moderating issue; that's targeted harassment. If someone had a discord channel where they and their mates got together to organise that, that would be harassment. These are the things people do - it isn't nice, but it happens. Again, I have no idea what this person is accused of; but should they be investigated? The cops seem to think so, and whilst I don't trust their judgement, that is who society thinks is best placed to make that call.
  • But that is the current position and the war is escalating not de-escalating. Bellicose rhetoric however morally right is dangerous when what at is at stake is the lives of hundreds of millions of Europeans.americans and russians . All that culture , all that history gone for the sake of being a bit too stubborn and rigid in wanting to be morally right. Sometimes you need to back down a little to gat a bully to as well (when that bully can kill you)
    No, the war is de-escalating, Russia is retreating from the land it has invaded.

    No, we don't need to back down here. We have gone from perennial warfare across the continent killing hundreds of millions to over 70 years of stability saying that boundaries on the map are not changed by warfare, ensuring that principle is maintained is absolutely worth any risks.

    If we allow warfare to return to this continent by giving anything, even just Crimea, to Russia after this conflict is going to say that warfare works and vastly increase the risk of more wars, and much more chance of nuclear Armageddon.

    Putin must lose, in full, and be seen to lose. Only that secures freedom from nuclear Armageddon.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    I would not like to test it out though
    Putin's power has already been tested out. He had all the state TV channels clear their programming and give the time for a major announcement. Then he had to not show up in a humiliating fashion, and couldn't even say how long the delay would be for several hours.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,872
    HYUFD said:

    Putin has made clear he is ready to go to MAD if Russia is attacked and he now includes the 4 disputed regions in Russia as per the ceremony last week
    Yet he annexed Crimea eight years ago, and Crimea *has* been attacked in this war. Yet no MAD response. And some 'real' Russian territory has been attacked as well.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053
    Sandpit said:

    That’s utterly horrific.
    Seems too absurd to be real. Even if saying something online did rise to level of an offence, couldn't they arrange for you to go to them, if willing? Not exactly an urgent matter.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    .@UKLabour backbench MPs have written to @MelJStride chair Treasury Select Committee asking for an inquiry into the allegation of “insider trading” following @KwasiKwarteng so called “mini budget”. https://twitter.com/KarlTurnerMP/status/1577292064714366976/photo/1
  • WillG said:

    The bully can't kill us. He is weak and doesn't have full control of his government. He can't even call up a full mobilization. Those that he needs to carry out his orders value the lives of their families too much.
    well i dont want to test that out or get anywhere near it being tested. The only orders to drop nuclear bombs in anger have been carried out without question if you go back to Japan so dont think relying on people disobeying orders in a dicatorship is something we want to get to
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,213
    Sean_F said:

    My understanding is that the Russian military have been given very clear assurances by their US counterparts, that any attempt to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine would result in very grave retribution by NATO. The options include, (a) destroying every Russian airbase in Crimea and in parts of Russia bordering Ukraine and Belarus (b) destruction of the Russian Baltic fleet, (c) thousands of NATO soldiers entering the conflict in Ukraine.
    A bit of detail here:
    https://twitter.com/MarkHertling/status/1577023354263203841
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278

    But they're not part of Russia, so if he goes MAD he goes MAD. We nuke them back, that's how MAD works.

    Those territories are not part of Russia.
    Putin has since last week said they are and that he is ready to defend them with nuclear weapons.

    However none of the territories or indeed Ukraine are in NATO so we are in no obligation to go to war with Russia to defend them
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,556

    only a severe MAD deterrence is the appropriate threat for any possible nuclear action from Russia.
    You do know what MAD stands for, don't you? Not to say it is not the right response but it would be the destruction of Putin, Russia, you and your family.

    You are saying that is the only response to a tactical nuke from Russia. Willingly sacrificing your family (super important) and yourself (less unexpendable).
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    Yet he annexed Crimea eight years ago, and Crimea *has* been attacked in this war. Yet no MAD response. And some 'real' Russian territory has been attacked as well.
    We are wasting our time. Those that have a liking to right wing autocratic government just want to protect Putin. They feel they don't need a consistent, logical argument. They just want to throw enough noise into the conversation to scaremonger.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053
    Unpopular said:

    Has anyone been playing Terra Invicta? Nick Palmer described a tabletop game he was involved with recently that has a similar premise. The game even starts in 2022, with the Russian Ukrainian War underway. Problem is it makes my potato of a laptop scream!
    I backed that on kickstarter as it was from the folks who modded Xcom into it's long war version. Looking forward to it though I suck at strategy. Only just managed to get some success with thrones of Britannia.
  • No, the war is de-escalating, Russia is retreating from the land it has invaded.

    No, we don't need to back down here. We have gone from perennial warfare across the continent killing hundreds of millions to over 70 years of stability saying that boundaries on the map are not changed by warfare, ensuring that principle is maintained is absolutely worth any risks.

    If we allow warfare to return to this continent by giving anything, even just Crimea, to Russia after this conflict is going to say that warfare works and vastly increase the risk of more wars, and much more chance of nuclear Armageddon.

    Putin must lose, in full, and be seen to lose. Only that secures freedom from nuclear Armageddon.
    well we must disagree as i really dont see that is logical or how people work
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,507
    TOPPING said:

    True and maybe it will take off maybe it won't. And I see the danger. But atm it's not a thing in the UK. And no one said that the Mumsnet founder was armed themselves.
    You appear to not understand how this works.

    It doesn’t matter whether anyone says the Mumsnet founder was armed (taking this case). You spin a yarn that gets the police to turn up fully armed, knowing that if the target does anything wrong they risk getting shot. What do you think it feels like if this happens to you?

    Remember the guy in Liverpool who was carrying a chair leg & the police shot him, thinking it was a sawn off shotgun in a bag? Yes, the guy was a career criminal (IIRC), so the suspicion wasn’t unwarranted, but he was shot without warning in the street. Same thing could have happened to the Justine Roberts’ au pair if she’d turned up at the door in the wrong clothes holding something that, in the dark by a stressed police officer, might have been misconstrued to be a gun.

    That’s the threat of swatting & so far no one has died here, but they have absolutely died in the US, because they opened their front doors and walked out into their own garden & stressed police officers who were already primed to think them a threat opened fire on them.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Scott_xP said:

    We have no mandate from the people to do this.

    Conservative Gov elected on basis of a manifesto, it’s how democracy works.

    People voted in ‘19 on the policy promises we made (and for Boris).

    If we don’t want to deliver on the deal, the promises, we need a fresh mandate.


    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1577295872517341184

    https://twitter.com/talktv/status/1577276325634654209

    I think that is the only sensible thing I have ever heard her say....

    Are we getting buyer's remorse from nominal Truss supporters?

    What even is the Tory Parliamentary Party? How does it function? And why do we as a country have to suffer its disfunctions en masse?
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,196
    AlistairM said:


    I thought HS2 was a waste of money. However they might as well finish it now. Truss only has to have a short walk from Chequers to the top of Coombe Hill to get a stunning view over the Buckinghamshire countryside and see the very obvious HS2 scar on the land. The environmental damage has been done along with vasts amount of money spent so it might as well be finished.

    Yeah. We seem to be terrible at just getting on and building stuff and surely part of the problem must be that not only do we take forever to decide to do something (spending a ton on studies and preparation along the way) but also a decision taken is still appealable, revokable and undoable, so we spend more on continuing to justify and defend a taken decision and then further throw away all the money we spent before the u-turn.

    (It is of course possible to go too far the other way and continue to plough money into losing projects, usually termed the Concorde Fallacy. But at the moment I think our problems are more the other way around.)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,153
    HYUFD said:

    Putin has made clear he is ready to go to MAD if Russia is attacked and he now includes the 4 disputed regions in Russia as per the ceremony last week
    MAD is a defensive doctrine, not a suicide pact.

    Both Russia and "Russia" have already been attacked in Belgorod and Crimea without him laying a finger on any NATO territory, never mind with nuclear weapons.
  • TOPPING said:

    You do know what MAD stands for, don't you? Not to say it is not the right response but it would be the destruction of Putin, Russia, you and your family.

    You are saying that is the only response to a tactical nuke from Russia. Willingly sacrificing your family (super important) and yourself (less unexpendable).
    Yes I do, and yes I am.

    Only that will prevent nuclear escalation in the first place.

    Nukes aren't there to prevent people from being humiliated, if they were then Nixon would have used them, there is no justification for Putin to start Armageddon today but if he does we must follow through in annihilating Russia and preventing them from launching any further strikes.

    And he must know beforehand, that is the price for escalation.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    EXCL: Jacob Rees-Mogg is actively examining ways to evade legal, environmental and public scrutiny of new oil and gas projects including fracking - scoop by @peterwalker https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/04/jacob-rees-mogg-fracking-email-hse
  • Being a grass is an expensive business.

    Rebekah Vardy will have to pay around £1.5m to Coleen Rooney in legal fees after losing yet another stage in the “Wagatha Christie” libel trial.

    The high court on Tuesday decided that Vardy must pay 90% of Rooney’s court costs, a larger proportion than in many equivalent cases. The judge imposed the punitive charge partly because Vardy deliberately destroyed WhatsApp messages and other evidence relevant to the trial.

    As a result Vardy will have to hand over £800,000 immediately to Rooney, with further payments to follow, up to around £1.5m. On top of this, Vardy will have to pay her own legal costs, which could bring her combined bill to well over £3m.

    This means that not only did Vardy voluntarily bring a libel case that destroyed her own reputation, she will also have paid millions of pounds for the privilege of being publicly humiliated.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/oct/04/rebekah-vardy-to-pay-15m-in-legal-fees-after-losing-wagatha-christie-libel-trial
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,470
    Sandpit said:

    That’s utterly horrific.
    Yes. The police should have shot her and her whole family. In the interests of health and safety. After all, she *might* be Hans Grubbers younger sister and have the entire of former East German Special Forces in her kitchen planning a terrorist operation. Can't be too careful.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,507
    kle4 said:

    Seems too absurd to be real. Even if saying something online did rise to level of an offence, couldn't they arrange for you to go to them, if willing? Not exactly an urgent matter.
    I would guess that they wanted access to her electronic devices. Hence the arrest at home.

    If you do the “please come in for questioning, otherwise we come and arrest you” dance then a suspect has an opportunity to wipe their devices, or accidentally drop them off the back of a ferry.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053

    By 'the war is escalating' do you mean that the Ukrainians are winning? So, the Russian invasion of a sovereign state was not escalation but the Ukrainians driving the invaders out is?

    Strange way of looking at it.
    It may not be state go away's intention, im sure it isnt, but the way you put it is exactly the Russian stance. Fighting back is unreasonable to them as it means more deaths.

    The war is not escalating, it's just more contested.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    well i dont want to test that out or get anywhere near it being tested. The only orders to drop nuclear bombs in anger have been carried out without question if you go back to Japan so dont think relying on people disobeying orders in a dicatorship is something we want to get to
    You always know an argument is on incredibly weak ground when it's proponents can't give counter arguments and just retreat to "I don't want to risk it!"

    In reality, the risk is by giving into non-credible threats in a way that encourages more and more of them to happen in future and to become a staple of foreign policy for dictatorial regimes.
  • This government really wants to be unpopular.

    Ministers are actively examining ways to evade legal, environmental and public scrutiny of new oil and gas projects including fracking, the Guardian has learned, sparking a furious reaction from green groups and opposition parties.

    Senior staff working on energy projects in the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Beis) have been instructed to look into ideas raised by Jacob Rees-Mogg, the business secretary, to escape potential judicial review of policies or public consultation.

    An email to officials, seen by the Guardian, sets out that Rees-Mogg, a keen advocate of fracking, had noted that parliamentary legislation is not subject to judicial review, and could potentially be used to speed along new projects.

    On the issue of environmental assessments for new projects, the email, written by a senior official who explains that they are relaying Rees-Mogg’s views, says using legislation to entirely remove such assessments would be a “more certain” way to proceed.

    Another option raised to water down environmental scrutiny would be to “streamline” requirements from the Health and Safety Executive, with the email noting this “would speed matters up further”.

    Rees-Mogg also wanted to know about other ways to accelerate approval for projects without jeopardising international obligations connected to oil and gas, and “asked specifically whether a debate in parliament, for example, counts as a public consultation”, the note added.

    Other potential routes to be explored include engagement with the energy industry “to maximise the approach to deregulation”, with the email saying Rees-Mogg believed new projects should not be identified without the agreement of companies behind them.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/04/jacob-rees-mogg-fracking-email-hse
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    edited October 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    Liz Truss has only been PM for a few weeks but already Lord Frost says “the team around her needs refreshing.” Big ouch. #CPC2022
    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1577292545272565764

    The pathetic Oakeshott (Source-Shopper General) has been boosterising Truss and her team of clowns since they took office.

    She should hang her head in shame, were she capable of such an emotion.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,556
    148grss said:

    Okay, not swatting. But if someone was following you around in the world, shouting at you wherever you went, and you ask them to stop and tell the police you're being harassed and they continue, that is harassment. That is what happens online - it's just easier to hide your identity, or have multiple identities, or use sock puppets or whatever.

    If a poster here, for example, told someone to kill themselves every time they posted, and found their associated twitter and did the same there, or found their facebook or private email and did the same there - that is beyond a moderating issue; that's targeted harassment. If someone had a discord channel where they and their mates got together to organise that, that would be harassment. These are the things people do - it isn't nice, but it happens. Again, I have no idea what this person is accused of; but should they be investigated? The cops seem to think so, and whilst I don't trust their judgement, that is who society thinks is best placed to make that call.
    I think we're disagreeing only in the apparent over- or well judged-reaction of plod.

    From her account she did something online and was (evidently) arrested for it.

    If someone on here told someone else to kill themselves every time they posted it should be treated with the utmost seriousness and yes the police should become involved.

    But it is an "internet crime" and I would expect a(n at first) calm discussion about it at the person's local nick, them having been invited to attend or whatever the process is. Same for fraud, frankly, or many other very real and very serious offences.

    If the flight risk is low and there is no physical danger to people (easier to categorise than emotional damage) then why should it not be conducted short of throwing someone in the cells.

    That way being jailed for giving offence lies.
  • By 'the war is escalating' do you mean that the Ukrainians are winning? So, the Russian invasion of a sovereign state was not escalation but the Ukrainians driving the invaders out is?

    Strange way of looking at it.
    well it is escalating isnt it ? Precisely because the russians are being pushed back because the weapons they can use to stop this are therefore coming to the fore ie nukes . I wish we can get over the concept of winning and losing when talking about a nuclear armed state like Russia because there cannot be a loser in this - for the sake of the wider world - sorry that might not be the most moral message or not a "winning " one but diplomacy has to come up with something now that is savign face for all concerned -
  • WillG said:

    You always know an argument is on incredibly weak ground when it's proponents can't give counter arguments and just retreat to "I don't want to risk it!"

    In reality, the risk is by giving into non-credible threats in a way that encourages more and more of them to happen in future and to become a staple of foreign policy for dictatorial regimes.
    ha! well not as weak as making up quotes attributed to me - see below
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278

    MAD is a defensive doctrine, not a suicide pact.

    Both Russia and "Russia" have already been attacked in Belgorod and Crimea without him laying a finger on any NATO territory, never mind with nuclear weapons.
    Attacked but not yet defeated and before Putin raised the stakes last week.

    If Russia looks set to be driven completely out of the 4 regions it has now claimed there is at least a 50% chance Putin uses a tactical nuke rather than face complete defeat
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,556
    Phil said:

    You appear to not understand how this works.

    It doesn’t matter whether anyone says the Mumsnet founder was armed (taking this case). You spin a yarn that gets the police to turn up fully armed, knowing that if the target does anything wrong they risk getting shot. What do you think it feels like if this happens to you?

    Remember the guy in Liverpool who was carrying a chair leg & the police shot him, thinking it was a sawn off shotgun in a bag? Yes, the guy was a career criminal (IIRC), so the suspicion wasn’t unwarranted, but he was shot without warning in the street. Same thing could have happened to the Justine Roberts’ au pair if she’d turned up at the door in the wrong clothes holding something that, in the dark by a stressed police officer, might have been misconstrued to be a gun.

    That’s the threat of swatting & so far no one has died here, but they have absolutely died in the US, because they opened their front doors and walked out into their own garden & stressed police officers who were already primed to think them a threat opened fire on them.
    Yes I understand that quite clearly. As I said, maybe it will become a thing here, maybe not. It at the moment is a bit like people dying trying to put their trousers on. It happens but is thankfully rare.

    Plus are we not assuming that she was even doing this. Which sounds pretty illegal but they didn't charge her with anything. Was not perhaps someone doing something similar to her in fact?
  • KeystoneKeystone Posts: 127

    May never "got" Brexit. She was an anti-immigration xenophobic Remainer, who viewed Brexit solely through the prism of anti-immigration.

    One thing that got me to switch from Remain to Leave was a conversation you and I had about trade where you convinced me that we could get better trade deals outside the Customs Union, like the other EEA nations have. Truss who also voted Remain seems to also get that, May did not, she just made it about immigration, immigration, immigration.
    Those great trade deals must be lurking just out of sight. The Indians are driving such a hard bargain it makes you wonder what the point is. Japan, Aus and NZ were only good in so far as they won't block our accession to the America-Asia bloc.

    Perhaps we could have done a little more digging into the composition of our exports and which markets offer the greatest opportunities for services exporters such as ourselves.

    Iron ore and coal exporters, we are not.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,153

    well it is escalating isnt it ? Precisely because the russians are being pushed back because the weapons they can use to stop this are therefore coming to the fore ie nukes . I wish we can get over the concept of winning and losing when talking about a nuclear armed state like Russia because there cannot be a loser in this - for the sake of the wider world - sorry that might not be the most moral message or not a "winning " one but diplomacy has to come up with something now that is savign face for all concerned -
    There have been many cases of nuclear armed states suffering military defeats.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,157
    Nigelb said:

    A bit of detail here:
    https://twitter.com/MarkHertling/status/1577023354263203841
    That's a thread where he uses a lot of words to say nobody has a clue what is going to happen.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,507
    edited October 2022
    Sandpit said:

    You (as the police), first look at what’s been written online, and ask a magistrate for a warrant to discover the identity of the person posting the messages if they also consider them to be harrasment.

    Then approach the platform on which the alleged harrasment took place, and ask for their logs.

    What you don’t do, is arrest someone without due process, for a non-violent crime where there is no immediate danger to anyone.
    Yeah, that kind of thing will work on Google, or Facebook, or any firm located in the UK (or the EU). It won’t work on KiwiFarms.

    It’s entirely plausible to me that the only way to connect this woman with her KF accounts (if they exist) is to grab her devices & go through them to look for digital forensic evidence.

    This /is/ the appropriate due process.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,153
    HYUFD said:

    Attacked but not yet defeated and before Putin raised the stakes last week.

    If Russia looks set to be driven completely out of the 4 regions it has now claimed there is at least a 50% chance Putin uses a tactical nuke rather than face complete defeat
    Explain how using a tactical nuke avoids defeat.
  • well it is escalating isnt it ? Precisely because the russians are being pushed back because the weapons they can use to stop this are therefore coming to the fore ie nukes . I wish we can get over the concept of winning and losing when talking about a nuclear armed state like Russia because there cannot be a loser in this - for the sake of the wider world - sorry that might not be the most moral message or not a "winning " one but diplomacy has to come up with something now that is savign face for all concerned -
    There absolutely can and must be a loser in this - and it must be Russia.

    The fact that Russia has nukes no more means they can't be a loser, than it meant that the USA couldn't lose in Vietnam.

    That is not what nukes mean. Ukraine must prevail, Russia must be comprehensively defeated.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,080
    Tory MPs might as well get rid of Truss now and choose a candidate who commands some credibility. The longer they leave this the worse it’ll become. Might as well try to save some seats

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278

    Explain how using a tactical nuke avoids defeat.
    As it is a warning shot he is prepared to use more nukes to avoid complete defeat
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    edited October 2022

    There absolutely can and must be a loser in this - and it must be Russia.

    The fact that Russia has nukes no more means they can't be a loser, than it meant that the USA couldn't lose in Vietnam.

    That is not what nukes mean. Ukraine must prevail, Russia must be comprehensively defeated.
    Fair enough, you just have to take the now significant chance we will then be drawn into a nuclear war with Russia too.

    Putin sees avoiding defeat in Ukraine as vital now to the survival of himself and his nation. On no count did President Ford see loss in Vietnam as threatening the survival of him and the USA
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,213
    Dura_Ace said:

    That's a thread where he uses a lot of words to say nobody has a clue what is going to happen.
    That is true - but it does demonstrate that whatever it is they've threatened Putin with in retaliation hasn't been made up in the last couple of days.
    Which is a minor piece of relief.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,556

    Yes. The police should have shot her and her whole family. In the interests of health and safety. After all, she *might* be Hans Grubbers younger sister and have the entire of former East German Special Forces in her kitchen planning a terrorist operation. Can't be too careful.
    Please do not make light of swatting. Someone very nearly had a nasty shock in Peckham the other day when armed police turned up to investigate an "LibDems winning here" poster.


    OK @Phil I am making light of it but let's not catastrophise what is as yet a vanishingly low incidence occurrence, dangerous as it can be. Although I do get the evidence angle about it. Would be a shame if that hard drive came to any harm.

    Just goes to show me jumping in to Twitter outrages. I have been entreating people all day about not listening to twitter and here I am.

    Still no idea what Kiwifarms is, that said.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,936
    Whistling to keep my spirits up. To Tom Lehrer's W a g t w w g …
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frAEmhqdLFs
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    pm215 said:

    Yeah. We seem to be terrible at just getting on and building stuff and surely part of the problem must be that not only do we take forever to decide to do something (spending a ton on studies and preparation along the way) but also a decision taken is still appealable, revokable and undoable, so we spend more on continuing to justify and defend a taken decision and then further throw away all the money we spent before the u-turn.

    (It is of course possible to go too far the other way and continue to plough money into losing projects, usually termed the Concorde Fallacy. But at the moment I think our problems are more the other way around.)
    At least we ended up with Concorde.

    In the time it took for the planning enquiry into Heathrow T5, Dubai Airport had designed and build their new Terminal 3. Similar project scope, new buildings on an existing airfield, with access roads.

    By the time the third runway at LHR ever arrives, the fourth one wil be needed pretty much immediately.
  • HYUFD said:

    As it is a warning shot he is prepared to use more nukes to avoid complete defeat
    Which is why we need to warn him we will use the full force of our strategic weaponry to ensure a complete defeat if he escalated to nuclear war.

    America was humiliated when it lost the Vietnam War, but America survived and just over a decade later won the Cold War.

    Russia needs to accept its defeat in Ukraine with grace and repeat back to Russia. Russia will survive, even if Putin like Nixon ends up humiliated and out of office.
  • There absolutely can and must be a loser in this - and it must be Russia.

    The fact that Russia has nukes no more means they can't be a loser, than it meant that the USA couldn't lose in Vietnam.

    That is not what nukes mean. Ukraine must prevail, Russia must be comprehensively defeated.
    I am afraid that is dangerous talk and it is never a good idea to leave a country "comprehensively defeated" - even in the non nuclear age it was the recipe for WW2 with Verseilles Treaty etc. When we are wanting to totally defeat a country with the highest amount of nukes on the planet it is absurd to have that as an aim
    2
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278

    Which is why we need to warn him we will use the full force of our strategic weaponry to ensure a complete defeat if he escalated to nuclear war.

    America was humiliated when it lost the Vietnam War, but America survived and just over a decade later won the Cold War.

    Russia needs to accept its defeat in Ukraine with grace and repeat back to Russia. Russia will survive, even if Putin like Nixon ends up humiliated and out of office.
    'Russia needs to accept its defeat in Ukraine with grace and repeat back to Russia.'

    I am sure Putin will do exactly as you say and be a very good loser
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,507
    TOPPING said:

    Please do not make light of swatting. Someone very nearly had a nasty shock in Peckham the other day when armed police turned up to investigate an "LibDems winning here" poster.


    OK @Phil I am making light of it but let's not catastrophise what is as yet a vanishingly low incidence occurrence, dangerous as it can be. Although I do get the evidence angle about it. Would be a shame if that hard drive came to any harm.

    Just goes to show me jumping in to Twitter outrages. I have been entreating people all day about not listening to twitter and here I am.

    Still no idea what Kiwifarms is, that said.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms
  • HYUFD said:

    Fair enough, you just have to take the now significant chance we will then be drawn into a nuclear war with Russia too.

    Putin sees avoiding defeat in Ukraine as vital now to the survival of himself and his nation. On no count did President Ford see loss in Vietnam as threatening the survival of him and the USA
    That's what we pay billions for Trident for.

    I hope it doesn't come to it, but if it does, then we must retaliate. No nuclear first strikes allowed without retaliation.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Are cabinet members all betting on themselves on the “next to go” markets?
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    TOPPING said:

    Yes I understand that quite clearly. As I said, maybe it will become a thing here, maybe not. It at the moment is a bit like people dying trying to put their trousers on. It happens but is thankfully rare.

    Plus are we not assuming that she was even doing this. Which sounds pretty illegal but they didn't charge her with anything. Was not perhaps someone doing something similar to her in fact?
    I guess my position is that the kind of "immediate danger" threshold discussed here seems to believe that only in person harassment has that risk - if you're harassing someone online and they're already at risk, suffer depression, etc. then yeah, someone could be in "immediate danger" from that harassment. And if they have reason to believe she is involved in harassment campaigns, the organising of them online via Kiwifarms or 4chan etc, then that could also add to the idea of immediacy.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,153

    I am afraid that is dangerous talk and it is never a good idea to leave a country "comprehensively defeated" - even in the non nuclear age it was the recipe for WW2 with Verseilles Treaty etc. When we are wanting to totally defeat a country with the highest amount of nukes on the planet it is absurd to have that as an aim
    2
    Germany was defeated far more comprehensively in WW2 than in WW1.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 770

    well it is escalating isnt it ? Precisely because the russians are being pushed back because the weapons they can use to stop this are therefore coming to the fore ie nukes . I wish we can get over the concept of winning and losing when talking about a nuclear armed state like Russia because there cannot be a loser in this - for the sake of the wider world - sorry that might not be the most moral message or not a "winning " one but diplomacy has to come up with something now that is savign face for all concerned -
    I’m glad there are still a few sane people on here. If there is a full scale nuclear war we all die. Every single person posting here will be dead (with a tiny number of exceptions) and everything will be gone. I’m sorry but that isn’t anything that can happen in the Ukraine that makes a full nuclear war a preferable outcome. Of course that doesn’t mean everyone should just roll over to Russian aggression but if there comes a moment where the choice is real and clear between nuclear Armageddon and non intervention then I sincerely hope our leaders choose non intervention. You can bleat all you want about appeasement and talk about Hitler but it’s not the same equation. The choice in 1939 wasn’t between appeasement or suicide.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    edited October 2022

    That's what we pay billions for Trident for.

    I hope it doesn't come to it, but if it does, then we must retaliate. No nuclear first strikes allowed without retaliation.
    So you now want to deploy Trident to attack Moscow if Putin launches a tactical nuclear weapon in the disputed regions of Ukraine.

    When not even a NATO state let alone the UK is directly at risk of Russia invasion or nuclear attack. Trident is a defence of last resort for us, not a method of first attack!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,582

    It's a Star Wars spin-off that has just elected Jar-Jar Binks as leader......
    Is that the spin-off where Lord Frost plays Jabba the Hutt...or vice-versa?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081

    This means that not only did Vardy voluntarily bring a libel case that destroyed her own reputation, she will also have paid millions of pounds for the privilege of being publicly humiliated.


    Liz Truss has been taking notes...
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    kle4 said:

    Seems too absurd to be real. Even if saying something online did rise to level of an offence, couldn't they arrange for you to go to them, if willing? Not exactly an urgent matter.
    You don't know what she was 'alleged' to have said, nor whether it happened as she reported it. But it is alarming that people can just think this type of policing of 'speech' is even remotely appropriate or acceptable. But this is the problem with harassment laws. Taken literally they severely curtail human expression. The police have adopted a culture of severely enforcing them where certain groups make complaints. It is an example of how 'woke' thinking has infiltrated institutions (in this case the police) and the 'anti-woke' government are powerless to do anything about it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053

    This government really wants to be unpopular.

    Ministers are actively examining ways to evade legal, environmental and public scrutiny of new oil and gas projects including fracking, the Guardian has learned, sparking a furious reaction from green groups and opposition parties.

    Senior staff working on energy projects in the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Beis) have been instructed to look into ideas raised by Jacob Rees-Mogg, the business secretary, to escape potential judicial review of policies or public consultation.

    An email to officials, seen by the Guardian, sets out that Rees-Mogg, a keen advocate of fracking, had noted that parliamentary legislation is not subject to judicial review, and could potentially be used to speed along new projects.

    On the issue of environmental assessments for new projects, the email, written by a senior official who explains that they are relaying Rees-Mogg’s views, says using legislation to entirely remove such assessments would be a “more certain” way to proceed.

    Another option raised to water down environmental scrutiny would be to “streamline” requirements from the Health and Safety Executive, with the email noting this “would speed matters up further”.

    Rees-Mogg also wanted to know about other ways to accelerate approval for projects without jeopardising international obligations connected to oil and gas, and “asked specifically whether a debate in parliament, for example, counts as a public consultation”, the note added.

    Other potential routes to be explored include engagement with the energy industry “to maximise the approach to deregulation”, with the email saying Rees-Mogg believed new projects should not be identified without the agreement of companies behind them.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/04/jacob-rees-mogg-fracking-email-hse

    In fairness I have seen others besides him suggest the answer to our building works is give more power over small scale stuff, but really restrict challenge and delay on strategic stuff.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    Having been to both the Tory and Labour conferences I think I finally understand what a vibe shift feels like.

    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1577304418311184384

    Tectonic...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,556
    148grss said:

    I guess my position is that the kind of "immediate danger" threshold discussed here seems to believe that only in person harassment has that risk - if you're harassing someone online and they're already at risk, suffer depression, etc. then yeah, someone could be in "immediate danger" from that harassment. And if they have reason to believe she is involved in harassment campaigns, the organising of them online via Kiwifarms or 4chan etc, then that could also add to the idea of immediacy.
    Trouble with that is is that while it is eminently reasonable as you write it, where do you draw the line.

    It is an offence to cause someone harassment, alarm or distress in the real world, however the hell that is determined. If you apply that to the internet then PB might as well close down tomorrow morning.

    @Phil?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    💥Liz Truss’s government in chaos after chancellor refused to confirm he would bring forward budget to calm markets - and home secretary accused fellow MPs of coup against PM.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/04/kwasi-kwarteng-fiscal-plan-date-thrown-into-confusion
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,110
    I’m astonished at the lack of discipline in Tory ranks. Including at cabinet level.

    Since the election of Jeremy Corbyn in 2015, British public life has become increasingly deranged, it is now in full syphillitic raving mode.

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,313
    geoffw said:

    Whistling to keep my spirits up. To Tom Lehrer's W a g t w w g …
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frAEmhqdLFs

    A true great.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053

    Tory MPs might as well get rid of Truss now and choose a candidate who commands some credibility. The longer they leave this the worse it’ll become. Might as well try to save some seats

    Where do they find this mythical figure?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,157
    Is there any polling on how the British voter feels about dying to prove a point about something or other over Ukraine? I'm not sure that there is a clear majority in favour of the Bartydammerung option.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,999

    Being a grass is an expensive business.

    Rebekah Vardy will have to pay around £1.5m to Coleen Rooney in legal fees after losing yet another stage in the “Wagatha Christie” libel trial.

    The high court on Tuesday decided that Vardy must pay 90% of Rooney’s court costs, a larger proportion than in many equivalent cases. The judge imposed the punitive charge partly because Vardy deliberately destroyed WhatsApp messages and other evidence relevant to the trial.

    As a result Vardy will have to hand over £800,000 immediately to Rooney, with further payments to follow, up to around £1.5m. On top of this, Vardy will have to pay her own legal costs, which could bring her combined bill to well over £3m.

    This means that not only did Vardy voluntarily bring a libel case that destroyed her own reputation, she will also have paid millions of pounds for the privilege of being publicly humiliated.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/oct/04/rebekah-vardy-to-pay-15m-in-legal-fees-after-losing-wagatha-christie-libel-trial

    Sort of thing this Liz Truss government would do.....
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,852
    Stereodog said:

    I’m glad there are still a few sane people on here. If there is a full scale nuclear war we all die. Every single person posting here will be dead (with a tiny number of exceptions) and everything will be gone. I’m sorry but that isn’t anything that can happen in the Ukraine that makes a full nuclear war a preferable outcome. Of course that doesn’t mean everyone should just roll over to Russian aggression but if there comes a moment where the choice is real and clear between nuclear Armageddon and non intervention then I sincerely hope our leaders choose non intervention. You can bleat all you want about appeasement and talk about Hitler but it’s not the same equation. The choice in 1939 wasn’t between appeasement or suicide.
    If he's prepared to wave them about to get what he wants then at what point do we say - enough?

    That doesn't mean starting nuclear Armageddon ourselves but if that's what Putin wants then we cannot stop him. Only his own generals can do that.

    I'm afraid this is the world we live in, and one we've lived in since the 60s. It seems a lot of people have forgotten.
  • Germany was defeated far more comprehensively in WW2 than in WW1.
    I'm not sure it was defeated in WW1, hence the term armistice.

    Not sure there was much wrong with the Versailles Treaty either. Seemed pretty damned reasonable to me.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,212
    edited October 2022
    HYUFD said:

    Putin has made clear he is ready to go to MAD if Russia is attacked and he now includes the 4 disputed regions in Russia as per the ceremony last week
    He has not said that at all. Listen carefully to the words - he will use weapons systems available to him - but he has said nothing about attacking NATO.
    Scott_xP said:

    💥Liz Truss’s government in chaos after chancellor refused to confirm he would bring forward budget to calm markets - and home secretary accused fellow MPs of coup against PM.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/04/kwasi-kwarteng-fiscal-plan-date-thrown-into-confusion

    All going well, isn’t it?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    ...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,556

    Germany was defeated far more comprehensively in WW2 than in WW1.
    And they were racing to get nukes just as we were.
This discussion has been closed.