Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Could it be the Saville comment that finally brings down Boris? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited February 16 in General
imageCould it be the Saville comment that finally brings down Boris? – politicalbetting.com

Today scenes in the Westminster area when police had to rescue Starmer from anti-lockdown protestors is the latest development in the Saville slur sage which began with Johnson at PMQs at the end of January. For the driving force of the crowd’s apparent anger was an attack on Starmer over the Saville case when he was DPP. This was even though this has been widely rebuked.

Read the full story here

«13456

Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 103,484
    edited February 7
    I hope so.

    Jim hasn't fixed it for Boris.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,489
    No
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 25,502
    A spokesman for the prime minister said: “He’s not actually a complete arsehole.”
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1490798705376649223
    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1490773801096953862
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,104
    edited February 7
    Fourth.

    Would rather be 54th though.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 2,865
    On topic: QTWTAIN
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 79,096
    edited February 7
    I didn't think anyone would resign over the Saville comments, yet it was at least the pretext for a top adviser to go, so I wouldn't want to rule it out as what finally did for him.

    And while a defence may be had that it was a crowd of loons and one cannot be responsible for their lunacy, it's just a bad bad look for them to be hurling threats and insults which have direct connectivity to Boris's attempt at being clever by linking Keir with Saville.

    I just don't see how he apologises now though - he already is the type to see any withdrawal as being weak, and he's double and tripled downed since then, so he'd not even get the benefit of the doubt from his MPs (who he has had defending his remarks) as it'd be even more obvious than usual he didn't mean it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 25,502

    I hope so.

    Jim hasn't fixed it for Boris.

    ...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,489
    Are people missing that this was anti lockdown protesters? And starmer has not exactly been mr let’s open up through the pandemic. If he had been in charge you would have had restrictions over Christmas. It seems to me that these muppets would have mobbed him anyway. The savile stuff, while vile, is just the cherry on top.
    Johnson, if he had any honour, would apologise in the house. But he won’t.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,489

    Fourth.

    Would rather be 54th though.

    Then you should have waited...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 16,584
    OT the final episode of The Nilsen Files on BBC2 (half over but catch it on iplayer) is a stroll down memory lane; I'd forgotten how hostile was the environment for gay people in those days, even in Parliament.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 25,502
    Seven Tory MPs - including former government ministers - are calling on the PM tonight to withdraw, and apologise for, his Savile smear towards Keir Starmer. Other Tory MPs retweeting words to that effect.

    In response, gov ministers and the PM have condemned the protesters.

    https://twitter.com/ionewells/status/1490799800723382273
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 79,096
    edited February 7
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Times is now reporting this, not just the Daily Mail.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/oxford-jab-smears-probably-killed-hundreds-of-thousands-says-scientist-rbflxfkzx

    "Oxford jab smears probably killed hundreds of thousands, says scientist

    An Oxford scientist who worked on the AstraZeneca vaccine has said that critics of the jab “probably killed hundreds of thousands of people” by damaging its reputation. Speaking to the BBC, Professor Sir John Bell said: “They have damaged the reputation of the vaccine in a way that echoes around the rest of the world. I think bad behaviour from scientists and from politicians has probably killed hundreds of thousands of people — and that they cannot be proud of.”"

    I note that it is no longer being used in the UK.

    Perhaps that Oxford Scientist ought to have a chat with the vaccines minister before going ant further.
    That they think they have better ones to hand now does not diminish that it was good and, as an Irish source said around that time, that the best vaccine was the one that was available, yet for some reason some people baselessly undermined that one and that action can be criticised.

    So I don't think that is the clever point you think it is, unless you think we are not using it because it is dangerous and ineffective.

    I don't see what 'they were wrong to undermine a safe and effective vaccine that way'(even if the point is made in an emotive way) has to do with 'It is not being used here at the moment'.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,489

    Fuck me, I had low expectations for a Boris Johnson premiership, but he sinks so much lower than I thought was possible.

    We need to be rid of Britain Trump.

    Anyone who enables him will be spoken by history with all the warmth of the Vichy collaborators.

    Incidentally, why is the phrase Britain Trump? Shouldn’t it be Britain’s Trump, or the British Trump?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,099

    Fuck me, I had low expectations for a Boris Johnson premiership, but he sinks so much lower than I thought was possible.

    We need to be rid of Britain Trump.

    Anyone who enables him will be spoken by history with all the warmth of the Vichy collaborators.

    Incidentally, why is the phrase Britain Trump? Shouldn’t it be Britain’s Trump, or the British Trump?
    It's a direct quote from Trump about Johnson. "They call him Britain Trump."
  • Fuck me, I had low expectations for a Boris Johnson premiership, but he sinks so much lower than I thought was possible.

    We need to be rid of Britain Trump.

    Anyone who enables him will be spoken by history with all the warmth of the Vichy collaborators.

    Incidentally, why is the phrase Britain Trump? Shouldn’t it be Britain’s Trump, or the British Trump?
    From 2019 when he came PM.

    Trump on Johnson: 'They call him Britain Trump'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-49090804
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    No, I think it is wishful thinking.

    The ones who have already called the comments disgraceful in the Conservative MP ranks have already publicly expressed opposition to him.

    Do we actually have any polling on the Savile comments and what people think of them? Unless a lot of Conservative MPs seriously think this is hurting them in their constituencies, they will not move against BJ.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 79,096
    kyf_100 said:

    Fuck me, I had low expectations for a Boris Johnson premiership, but he sinks so much lower than I thought was possible.

    We need to be rid of Britain Trump.

    Anyone who enables him will be spoken by history with all the warmth of the Vichy collaborators.

    Incidentally, why is the phrase Britain Trump? Shouldn’t it be Britain’s Trump, or the British Trump?
    It's a direct quote from Trump about Johnson. "They call him Britain Trump."
    And incidentally he was likely wrong, I don't think many did or do call him Britain Trump (though the number of comparisons has increased as his behaviour deterioriates further) for the reason turbotubbs gave, as different phrasing would have been used.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Times is now reporting this, not just the Daily Mail.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/oxford-jab-smears-probably-killed-hundreds-of-thousands-says-scientist-rbflxfkzx

    "Oxford jab smears probably killed hundreds of thousands, says scientist

    An Oxford scientist who worked on the AstraZeneca vaccine has said that critics of the jab “probably killed hundreds of thousands of people” by damaging its reputation. Speaking to the BBC, Professor Sir John Bell said: “They have damaged the reputation of the vaccine in a way that echoes around the rest of the world. I think bad behaviour from scientists and from politicians has probably killed hundreds of thousands of people — and that they cannot be proud of.”"

    I note that it is no longer being used in the UK.

    Perhaps that Oxford Scientist ought to have a chat with the vaccines minister before going ant further.
    That they think they have better ones to hand now does not diminish that it was good and, as an Irish source said around that time, that the best vaccine was the one that was available, yet for some reason some people baselessly undermined that one and that action can be criticised.

    So I don't think that is the clever point you think it is, unless you think we are not using it because it is dangerous and ineffective.

    I don't see what 'they were wrong to undermine a safe and effective vaccine that way'(even if the point is made in an emotive way) has to do with 'It is not being used here at the moment'.
    I thought the reason given now why they don't use AZ is that Pfizer / Moderna work better as a booster, particularly after AZ? Given we are now onto the stage of boosters than initial jabs, it makes sense AZ is being "wound down"
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,401
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Times is now reporting this, not just the Daily Mail.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/oxford-jab-smears-probably-killed-hundreds-of-thousands-says-scientist-rbflxfkzx

    "Oxford jab smears probably killed hundreds of thousands, says scientist

    An Oxford scientist who worked on the AstraZeneca vaccine has said that critics of the jab “probably killed hundreds of thousands of people” by damaging its reputation. Speaking to the BBC, Professor Sir John Bell said: “They have damaged the reputation of the vaccine in a way that echoes around the rest of the world. I think bad behaviour from scientists and from politicians has probably killed hundreds of thousands of people — and that they cannot be proud of.”"

    I note that it is no longer being used in the UK.

    Perhaps that Oxford Scientist ought to have a chat with the vaccines minister before going ant further.
    That they think they have better ones to hand now does not diminish that it was good and, as an Irish source said around that time, that the best vaccine was the one that was available, yet for some reason some people baselessly undermined that one and that action can be criticised.

    So I don't think that is the clever point you think it is, unless you think we are not using it because it is dangerous and ineffective.

    I don't see what 'they were wrong to undermine a safe and effective vaccine that way'(even if the point is made in an emotive way) has to do with 'It is not being used here at the moment'.
    I'm perfectly happy that it was the one i had. Now that the real challenge is against serious illness, as the battle against contraction and onward transmission looks largely to be lost (except in a world of repeated regular boosters which isn't sustainable) the jury seems out on whether it is actually inferior at all.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 47,312

    rcs1000 said:

    It was then that Marvin got religion. Not the quiet, personal kind, that involves doing good deeds and living a better life; not even the kind that involves putting on a suit and ringing people's doorbells; but the kind that involves having your own TV network and getting people to send you money.

    Douglas.

    A proper Englishman.
    Oh dear, oh dear.

    Not Douglas Adams, but Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman: from Good Omens.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,990
    Boris' comments may have been unwise but the protest was mainly anti Vax and anti Covid restriction. Hence Piers Corbyn addressed it
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 18,495
    MrEd said:

    No, I think it is wishful thinking.

    The ones who have already called the comments disgraceful in the Conservative MP ranks have already publicly expressed opposition to him.

    Do we actually have any polling on the Savile comments and what people think of them? Unless a lot of Conservative MPs seriously think this is hurting them in their constituencies, they will not move against BJ.

    Are you still supporting him? I have some respect for such a contrarian stance, but surely it's time for him to go?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 79,096
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It was then that Marvin got religion. Not the quiet, personal kind, that involves doing good deeds and living a better life; not even the kind that involves putting on a suit and ringing people's doorbells; but the kind that involves having your own TV network and getting people to send you money.

    Douglas.

    A proper Englishman.
    Oh dear, oh dear.

    Not Douglas Adams, but Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman: from Good Omens.
    Should be required reading on the school syllabus.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 34,571
    Britain Trump, right down to using our own little cadre of QAnon
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 52,457
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It was then that Marvin got religion. Not the quiet, personal kind, that involves doing good deeds and living a better life; not even the kind that involves putting on a suit and ringing people's doorbells; but the kind that involves having your own TV network and getting people to send you money.

    Douglas.

    A proper Englishman.
    Oh dear, oh dear.

    Not Douglas Adams, but Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman: from Good Omens.
    Should be required reading on the school syllabus.
    It would be Anathema to English teachers, but it would be a cunning Device.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,401

    MrEd said:

    No, I think it is wishful thinking.

    The ones who have already called the comments disgraceful in the Conservative MP ranks have already publicly expressed opposition to him.

    Do we actually have any polling on the Savile comments and what people think of them? Unless a lot of Conservative MPs seriously think this is hurting them in their constituencies, they will not move against BJ.

    Are you still supporting him? I have some respect for such a contrarian stance, but surely it's time for him to go?
    He supports Trump, or at least proclaims to be "both sides" on him, so he's hardly going to be abandoning Johnson in a hurry.
  • HYUFD said:

    Boris' comments may have been unwise but the protest was mainly anti Vax and anti Covid restriction. Hence Piers Corbyn addressed it

    But they also singled out Starmer, from multiple reports.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 79,096
    alex_ said:

    MrEd said:

    No, I think it is wishful thinking.

    The ones who have already called the comments disgraceful in the Conservative MP ranks have already publicly expressed opposition to him.

    Do we actually have any polling on the Savile comments and what people think of them? Unless a lot of Conservative MPs seriously think this is hurting them in their constituencies, they will not move against BJ.

    Are you still supporting him? I have some respect for such a contrarian stance, but surely it's time for him to go?
    He supports Trump, or at least proclaims to be "both sides" on him, so he's hardly going to be abandoning Johnson in a hurry.
    Abandoning him or not, I think he hs a point that the comments won't move anything further unless MPs think that specifically will hurt them. Since they already don't seem to think Boris is hurting them (or not enough to move now at any rate), will the Saville stuff move the dial even a little more?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    alex_ said:

    MrEd said:

    No, I think it is wishful thinking.

    The ones who have already called the comments disgraceful in the Conservative MP ranks have already publicly expressed opposition to him.

    Do we actually have any polling on the Savile comments and what people think of them? Unless a lot of Conservative MPs seriously think this is hurting them in their constituencies, they will not move against BJ.

    Are you still supporting him? I have some respect for such a contrarian stance, but surely it's time for him to go?
    He supports Trump, or at least proclaims to be "both sides" on him, so he's hardly going to be abandoning Johnson in a hurry.
    I think I said last time someone asked that I'd prefer Trump didn't run in 2024. Did you miss that?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 18,495
    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Times is now reporting this, not just the Daily Mail.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/oxford-jab-smears-probably-killed-hundreds-of-thousands-says-scientist-rbflxfkzx

    "Oxford jab smears probably killed hundreds of thousands, says scientist

    An Oxford scientist who worked on the AstraZeneca vaccine has said that critics of the jab “probably killed hundreds of thousands of people” by damaging its reputation. Speaking to the BBC, Professor Sir John Bell said: “They have damaged the reputation of the vaccine in a way that echoes around the rest of the world. I think bad behaviour from scientists and from politicians has probably killed hundreds of thousands of people — and that they cannot be proud of.”"

    I note that it is no longer being used in the UK.

    Perhaps that Oxford Scientist ought to have a chat with the vaccines minister before going ant further.
    That they think they have better ones to hand now does not diminish that it was good and, as an Irish source said around that time, that the best vaccine was the one that was available, yet for some reason some people baselessly undermined that one and that action can be criticised.

    So I don't think that is the clever point you think it is, unless you think we are not using it because it is dangerous and ineffective.

    I don't see what 'they were wrong to undermine a safe and effective vaccine that way'(even if the point is made in an emotive way) has to do with 'It is not being used here at the moment'.
    I thought the reason given now why they don't use AZ is that Pfizer / Moderna work better as a booster, particularly after AZ? Given we are now onto the stage of boosters than initial jabs, it makes sense AZ is being "wound down"
    I felt it was a good working hypothesis that some of the clotting was down to the jab being administered into the veins rather than the muscle, as was intended. Of course, drawing that conclusion would have involved casting aspersions on the sainted NHS.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,944
    HYUFD said:

    Boris' comments may have been unwise but the protest was mainly anti Vax and anti Covid restriction. Hence Piers Corbyn addressed it

    No idea if they were influenced much by Boris or not. He deserves the owback from it regardless
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,504
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris' comments may have been unwise but the protest was mainly anti Vax and anti Covid restriction. Hence Piers Corbyn addressed it

    No idea if they were influenced much by Boris or not. He deserves the owback from it regardless
    Owback? Yes, I hope Boris slips a disc.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 7,281
    On topic.

    The End of British Trump getting as messy as end of US Trump. I don’t find any of it amusing, or great chance for opposition parties, I think it all sad and dangerous.

    If we no longer have rules to stick to, rules to respect and stick to, are we even a functioning democracy anymore? If we trash respect in and the credibility of our institutions, if we disregard the spirit, the ethos of our democracy, it’s not going to be that easy to get back is it? When politicians set the mob on each other, can this be set back overnight, merely with change of one leader or government with another?

    They promised Global Britain. This is more like Ignoble Britain.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,130
    edited February 7
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris' comments may have been unwise but the protest was mainly anti Vax and anti Covid restriction. Hence Piers Corbyn addressed it

    No idea if they were influenced much by Boris or not. He deserves the owback from it regardless
    Well, I haven't heard of any groups trying anything similar with Starmer before now. The link with what happened only a week ago now looks very near to certain to me.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,504

    On topic.

    The End of British Trump getting as messy as end of US Trump. I don’t find any of it amusing, or great chance for opposition parties, I think it all sad and dangerous.

    If we no longer have rules to stick to, rules to respect and stick to, are we even a functioning democracy anymore? If we trash respect in and the credibility of our institutions, if we disregard the spirit, the ethos of our democracy, it’s not going to be that easy to get back is it? When politicians set the mob on each other, can this be set back overnight, merely with change of one leader or government with another?

    They promised Global Britain. This is more like Ignoble Britain.

    I regret to announce that we finally agree
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,708
    What is this weird spell that has taken hold of so many Tory MPs? I can buy that the greasy pole climber sans payroll vote might keep quiet. But what the f*** is the matter with the +200 backbenchers that they’re content to let this carry on? Do they really believe that it’s in anyone’s interests for this to drag on beyond May?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 25,502
    In other news...

    Last night, Mercedes auctioned off a tour of their factory at a charity auction.

    Christian Horner made the winning bid saying he'd "like to take about 20 people" with him.

    The mind games for the 2022 F1 season have started already. 😅
    https://twitter.com/WilliamHill/status/1490803808078688256/photo/1
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 47,312

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Times is now reporting this, not just the Daily Mail.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/oxford-jab-smears-probably-killed-hundreds-of-thousands-says-scientist-rbflxfkzx

    "Oxford jab smears probably killed hundreds of thousands, says scientist

    An Oxford scientist who worked on the AstraZeneca vaccine has said that critics of the jab “probably killed hundreds of thousands of people” by damaging its reputation. Speaking to the BBC, Professor Sir John Bell said: “They have damaged the reputation of the vaccine in a way that echoes around the rest of the world. I think bad behaviour from scientists and from politicians has probably killed hundreds of thousands of people — and that they cannot be proud of.”"

    I note that it is no longer being used in the UK.

    Perhaps that Oxford Scientist ought to have a chat with the vaccines minister before going ant further.
    That they think they have better ones to hand now does not diminish that it was good and, as an Irish source said around that time, that the best vaccine was the one that was available, yet for some reason some people baselessly undermined that one and that action can be criticised.

    So I don't think that is the clever point you think it is, unless you think we are not using it because it is dangerous and ineffective.

    I don't see what 'they were wrong to undermine a safe and effective vaccine that way'(even if the point is made in an emotive way) has to do with 'It is not being used here at the moment'.
    I thought the reason given now why they don't use AZ is that Pfizer / Moderna work better as a booster, particularly after AZ? Given we are now onto the stage of boosters than initial jabs, it makes sense AZ is being "wound down"
    I felt it was a good working hypothesis that some of the clotting was down to the jab being administered into the veins rather than the muscle, as was intended. Of course, drawing that conclusion would have involved casting aspersions on the sainted NHS.
    I think that was part of it, but not the only factor: https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210422/scientists-find-how-astrazeneca-vaccine-causes-clots

    Interestingly, the J&J vaccine in the US seems to have had similar issues.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 14,397
    edited February 7
    Foxy said:

    Britain Trump, right down to using our own little cadre of QAnon

    Off topic, Foxy, do you think Rodgers’ days are numbered at Leicester? They got a proper hammering yesterday by a lower league side in Forest (although admittedly Forest are usually considered the biggest club in the region, they haven’t been in the top flight for decades).

    Leicester looked absolutely dismal. Just couldn’t handle a partisan crowd by the looks of things.

    Worth a bet on Rodgers going?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    No, I think it is wishful thinking.

    The ones who have already called the comments disgraceful in the Conservative MP ranks have already publicly expressed opposition to him.

    Do we actually have any polling on the Savile comments and what people think of them? Unless a lot of Conservative MPs seriously think this is hurting them in their constituencies, they will not move against BJ.

    Are you still supporting him? I have some respect for such a contrarian stance, but surely it's time for him to go?
    Support is too strong.

    What I care about is someone comes in and supports a proper levelling up agenda. That is not going to be Sunak or Truss. It's not going to be Mourdant or Hunt or Tom Tugging or whatever he is called. I doubt it will be Johnson. But at least if the bulk of his Red Wall MPs have him by the balls, there is a chance he is forced into doing something meaningful. I don't really care who is the vehicle for change, just as long as it happens.

    Plus, being blunt, a lot of the outrage this evening seems confected. It's well known Starmer supported the Government lockdowns and would probably have gone further. So the fact he got surrounded by a bunch of nutjobs and weirdos campaigning against lockdowns is not exactly surprising. They didn't need BJ to tell them to get in Starmer's face. If you want hate, try walking to the Tory conference in Manchester with a sign saying you are Conservative.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,803

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Times is now reporting this, not just the Daily Mail.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/oxford-jab-smears-probably-killed-hundreds-of-thousands-says-scientist-rbflxfkzx

    "Oxford jab smears probably killed hundreds of thousands, says scientist

    An Oxford scientist who worked on the AstraZeneca vaccine has said that critics of the jab “probably killed hundreds of thousands of people” by damaging its reputation. Speaking to the BBC, Professor Sir John Bell said: “They have damaged the reputation of the vaccine in a way that echoes around the rest of the world. I think bad behaviour from scientists and from politicians has probably killed hundreds of thousands of people — and that they cannot be proud of.”"

    I note that it is no longer being used in the UK.

    Perhaps that Oxford Scientist ought to have a chat with the vaccines minister before going ant further.
    That they think they have better ones to hand now does not diminish that it was good and, as an Irish source said around that time, that the best vaccine was the one that was available, yet for some reason some people baselessly undermined that one and that action can be criticised.

    So I don't think that is the clever point you think it is, unless you think we are not using it because it is dangerous and ineffective.

    I don't see what 'they were wrong to undermine a safe and effective vaccine that way'(even if the point is made in an emotive way) has to do with 'It is not being used here at the moment'.
    I thought the reason given now why they don't use AZ is that Pfizer / Moderna work better as a booster, particularly after AZ? Given we are now onto the stage of boosters than initial jabs, it makes sense AZ is being "wound down"
    I felt it was a good working hypothesis that some of the clotting was down to the jab being administered into the veins rather than the muscle, as was intended. Of course, drawing that conclusion would have involved casting aspersions on the sainted NHS.
    Wasn't that shown to be the cause for a lot of the cases?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,814

    At some point, we will be given the names of the 2 people arrested and we will hear their motivation, as well as their political history.

    I might be inclined to wait till then before alleging the "driving force" of the attack was Saville.
    .
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,401
    kyf_100 said:

    kle4 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Fuck me, I had low expectations for a Boris Johnson premiership, but he sinks so much lower than I thought was possible.

    We need to be rid of Britain Trump.

    Anyone who enables him will be spoken by history with all the warmth of the Vichy collaborators.

    Incidentally, why is the phrase Britain Trump? Shouldn’t it be Britain’s Trump, or the British Trump?
    It's a direct quote from Trump about Johnson. "They call him Britain Trump."
    And incidentally he was likely wrong, I don't think many did or do call him Britain Trump (though the number of comparisons has increased as his behaviour deterioriates further) for the reason turbotubbs gave, as different phrasing would have been used.
    I didn't see Boris as trump-lite when he was first elected, like others here I assumed he would understand his own strengths and weaknesses and appoint competent people to do the day job(s) and be more of a front man. I saw him, if anything, as a British Ronald Reagan, an actor playing a part. I now realise he is far more toxic than that and the epithet of "Britain Trump" is entirely appropriate.
    No i don't think so, although it depends on quite what one means by "Trump". There are similarities in some ways from a political standpoint. And if he is allowed to continue he is quite likely to drag the Tory party further down a very dangerous path of no return. But Trump is a criminal. And not just a petty one. There are sadly plenty of other politicians in the world at the moment who would be a better fit.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 34,869
    Foxy said:

    Britain Trump, right down to using our own little cadre of QAnon

    But not as rich as Croesus, or even the illusory riches that Daddy Trump projects.
    I wonder if that really twists BJ's melon? I hope so.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578


    At some point, we will be given the names of the 2 people arrested and we will hear their motivation, as well as their political history.

    I might be inclined to wait till then before alleging the "driving force" of the attack was Saville.
    .

    That is a bit too sensible a comment for the likes of here tonight.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 41,362
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    No, I think it is wishful thinking.

    The ones who have already called the comments disgraceful in the Conservative MP ranks have already publicly expressed opposition to him.

    Do we actually have any polling on the Savile comments and what people think of them? Unless a lot of Conservative MPs seriously think this is hurting them in their constituencies, they will not move against BJ.

    Are you still supporting him? I have some respect for such a contrarian stance, but surely it's time for him to go?
    If you want hate, try walking to the Tory conference in Manchester with a sign saying you are Conservative.
    This blue on blue civil war is clearly gathering pace.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,504
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    No, I think it is wishful thinking.

    The ones who have already called the comments disgraceful in the Conservative MP ranks have already publicly expressed opposition to him.

    Do we actually have any polling on the Savile comments and what people think of them? Unless a lot of Conservative MPs seriously think this is hurting them in their constituencies, they will not move against BJ.

    Are you still supporting him? I have some respect for such a contrarian stance, but surely it's time for him to go?
    Support is too strong.

    What I care about is someone comes in and supports a proper levelling up agenda. That is not going to be Sunak or Truss. It's not going to be Mourdant or Hunt or Tom Tugging or whatever he is called. I doubt it will be Johnson. But at least if the bulk of his Red Wall MPs have him by the balls, there is a chance he is forced into doing something meaningful. I don't really care who is the vehicle for change, just as long as it happens.

    Plus, being blunt, a lot of the outrage this evening seems confected. It's well known Starmer supported the Government lockdowns and would probably have gone further. So the fact he got surrounded by a bunch of nutjobs and weirdos campaigning against lockdowns is not exactly surprising. They didn't need BJ to tell them to get in Starmer's face. If you want hate, try walking to the Tory conference in Manchester with a sign saying you are Conservative.
    I'm feeling pretty angry right now, so seeing you refer to it as "confected" is a little provocative.
    The whataboutery is also annoying, but let's deal with that right now anyway: such behaviour is wrong, whichever party the MP is from. This should not be par for the course. The fact that the irresponsible comments are coming from the very top is fucking outrageous.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 79,096
    edited February 7
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    No, I think it is wishful thinking.

    The ones who have already called the comments disgraceful in the Conservative MP ranks have already publicly expressed opposition to him.

    Do we actually have any polling on the Savile comments and what people think of them? Unless a lot of Conservative MPs seriously think this is hurting them in their constituencies, they will not move against BJ.

    Are you still supporting him? I have some respect for such a contrarian stance, but surely it's time for him to go?
    Support is too strong.

    What I care about is someone comes in and supports a proper levelling up agenda. That is not going to be Sunak or Truss. It's not going to be Mourdant or Hunt or Tom Tugging or whatever he is called. I doubt it will be Johnson. But at least if the bulk of his Red Wall MPs have him by the balls, there is a chance he is forced into doing something meaningful. I don't really care who is the vehicle for change, just as long as it happens.

    Plus, being blunt, a lot of the outrage this evening seems confected. It's well known Starmer supported the Government lockdowns and would probably have gone further. So the fact he got surrounded by a bunch of nutjobs and weirdos campaigning against lockdowns is not exactly surprising. They didn't need BJ to tell them to get in Starmer's face. If you want hate, try walking to the Tory conference in Manchester with a sign saying you are Conservative.
    It would have been outrageous if it had been an MP, Boris or Keir, I don't think there's anything confected about that outrage. And while the point about him being a supporter of lockdowns and so a draw to such a crowed is true, it's not confected to note their yelling included a completely separate point to that, and one Boris has by his evasions essentially kept fresh in recent reporting. They may not have needed Boris to get in Starmer's face, but it is a might coincidence that they decided to use one of his talking points as a basis for doing so.

    Whether or not it was the 'driving force' is pretty irrelevant - it may not have been the main factor, but it was a factor, since they mentioned it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 25,502
    💥 EXC: PM’s new PR man directly lobbied No10 Chief of Staff not to ban controversial tech firm Huawei over spying fears.

    Guto Harri used 2020 meeting with Sir Ed Lister to ask which ministers to “nudge” on behalf of Chinese client, leaked minutes say:


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17577590/boris-new-spin-chief-lobby-huawei/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,103
    edited February 7
    Foxy said:

    Britain Trump, right down to using our own little cadre of QAnon

    It isn't just the UK that has seen this growth in anti-lockdown / antivaxxer / conspiracy theory mobs. We are seeing it all across Europe, Australia, Canada, etc. Idle fingers and the internet.

    In fact in the UK is tiny compared to the regular turn out in places like Germany, France nd Australia.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,401


    At some point, we will be given the names of the 2 people arrested and we will hear their motivation, as well as their political history.

    I might be inclined to wait till then before alleging the "driving force" of the attack was Saville.
    .

    I doubt that it was remotely the driving force. And these people are unlikely to be Johnsons given apparently they are objecting to Starmer not opposing the Government.

    But i don't see that that matters. The man degrades the office with every day he occupies it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 79,096
    edited February 7
    Whether it is just by virtue of most being younger (as the father is younger), because they dislike him, he keeps them out of politics, or just because of the way our politics works, at least unlike Trump we are spared a whole Johnson family being prominent in the political discussion.

    Heck, Jo doesn't seem to stick up for him much and he got a peerage to mend the rift between them.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 25,502
    alex_ said:

    The man degrades the office with every day he occupies it.

    This has always been true.

    The fanbois were OK with that when he was winning...
  • RogerRoger Posts: 17,011
    edited February 7


    At some point, we will be given the names of the 2 people arrested and we will hear their motivation, as well as their political history.

    I might be inclined to wait till then before alleging the "driving force" of the attack was Saville.
    .

    It doesn't matter what 'the driving force' was. All that matters is what the press and the public believe it to be. This isn't a crime that's being investigated. What the Prime Minister said is now well known.

    Whoever advised the PM to use that slur should have been hanged drawn and quartered a week ago. So should Rees Mogg for laughing at it
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 79,096
    Scott_xP said:

    alex_ said:

    The man degrades the office with every day he occupies it.

    This has always been true.

    The fanbois were OK with that when he was winning...
    In fairness, while that trade off may not be liked from outside, it at least makes sense when there is a trade off, not a one way street.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 56,095
    Worth listening to the whole thing:

    https://twitter.com/davidlammy/status/1490761739759194117?s=21

    While there was the odd mention of paedophile the main complaints appear to have been vax related and not opposing the government, with a bit of Assange thrown in for good measure. I doubt this mob would have given Starmer a peaceful passage even without the Savile remarks.

    Nonetheless Johnson’s Savile comment was disgraceful and he should have resigned by now - but in this case suggesting that he caused the near assault on Starmer is a stretch - and his opponents are exploring it for political capital, which is fair enough. Couldn’t happen to a more deserving politician.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,099
    edited February 7

    Foxy said:

    Britain Trump, right down to using our own little cadre of QAnon

    It isn't just the UK that has seen this growth in anti-lockdown / antivaxxer / conspiracy theory mobs. We are seeing it all across Europe, Australia, Canada, etc. Idle fingers and the internet.

    In fact in the UK, is tiny compared to the regular turn out in places like Germany, France nd Australia.
    I actually walked past them around 4pm on my way across town. I crossed the street to avoid them. There were perhaps fifty of them, they looked like fringe nutjobs. Holding signs up like "when will your bullshit detector turn red" and "why are footballers collapsing???" (yes, with three exclamation marks.

    Adjacent to the anti vaxxer protest in Parliament Square, there was a very loud protest about medical research on beagles, which seemed to attract approximately the same number of people, though the beagle people were louder.

    The people I passed today seemed like a very small, very strange fringe minority.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 25,502
    kle4 said:

    at least unlike Trump we are spared a whole Johnson family being prominent in the political discussion.

    But we have the whole Carrie psychodrama instead
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 34,571

    Foxy said:

    Britain Trump, right down to using our own little cadre of QAnon

    Off topic, Foxy, do you think Rodgers’ days are numbered at Leicester? They got a proper hammering yesterday by a lower league side in Forest (although admittedly Forest are usually considered the biggest club in the region, they haven’t been in the top flight for decades).

    Leicester looked absolutely dismal. Just couldn’t handle a partisan crowd by the looks of things.

    Worth a bet on Rodgers going?
    I think he will last the season. Khun Top (the owner) was at the match yesterday, and saw it all. He is not a sacking owner, unless it looks seriously like relegation, and it isn't that bad. The payoff would soak up a fair bit of the summer transfer budget.

    There is a deficit of on field leadership and a number of players are performing well under their best, notably Soyuncu, Tielemans and Ndidi, currently our senior CB and Central midfielders. The tactics and game plan are turgid, and too complex for the players, who seem quite uncertain of what to do, apart from pass sideways and back.

    Liverpool and West Ham this week, so I think it will be a rough week, but Rogers will survive and limp on until May.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 42,150
    Fuck Business Boris!
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,504
    "They were only protesting about all the lockdowns and vaccines that Jimmy Savile forced on us" 🤔
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 25,502
    But Tories not happy. IDS: “Given the issue of the threat to national security.. that lay behind why Huawei have been banned.. it is important that there is clarity in these matters. Will G Harri now be subject to full security oversight including past involvements with Huawei?”
    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1490808719239794699
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 56,095
    EXC: PM’s new PR man directly lobbied No10 Chief of Staff not to ban controversial tech firm Huawei over spying fears.

    Guto Harri used 2020 meeting with Sir Ed Lister to ask which ministers to “nudge” on behalf of Chinese client, leaked minutes say:


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1490807058341445633?s=20&t=985NB2vyojYsMAQqgGHu1A
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 25,502
    The grownups are back in charge in Number 10

    But what if one of them is a Chinese spy though...

    How is the relaunch going?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,814
    alex_ said:


    At some point, we will be given the names of the 2 people arrested and we will hear their motivation, as well as their political history.

    I might be inclined to wait till then before alleging the "driving force" of the attack was Saville.
    .

    I doubt that it was remotely the driving force. And these people are unlikely to be Johnsons given apparently they are objecting to Starmer not opposing the Government.

    But i don't see that that matters. The man degrades the office with every day he occupies it.
    I agree it was (almost certainly) not the driving force.

    But, the header says "the driving force of the crowd’s apparent anger was an attack on Starmer over the Saville case when he was DPP"

    It does matter, because it is usually best to be as truthful as possible. And we will get the names of the two people arrested shortly, (who I expect will be motivated by factors other than Saville).

    I never voted for Johnson, and there are many good reasons to get rid of him.

    So, we don't need to construct an artificial reason.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 53,918
    i reporting that Sunak has been warned he may be reshuffled.


    Time to strike Rishi. Time to strike.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 53,918
    So, the first day with the grown ups in charge has gone well I gather...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 34,571
    Scott_xP said:

    The grownups are back in charge in Number 10

    But what if one of them is a Chinese spy though...

    How is the relaunch going?

    It will provide a little interest for the Russian ones that work there...
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 7,281
    Farooq said:

    On topic.

    The End of British Trump getting as messy as end of US Trump. I don’t find any of it amusing, or great chance for opposition parties, I think it all sad and dangerous.

    If we no longer have rules to stick to, rules to respect and stick to, are we even a functioning democracy anymore? If we trash respect in and the credibility of our institutions, if we disregard the spirit, the ethos of our democracy, it’s not going to be that easy to get back is it? When politicians set the mob on each other, can this be set back overnight, merely with change of one leader or government with another?

    They promised Global Britain. This is more like Ignoble Britain.

    I regret to announce that we finally agree
    Good on you mate. 👍🏻

    Can you press the like button on it now please
  • i reporting that Sunak has been warned he may be reshuffled.


    Time to strike Rishi. Time to strike.

    Yes. Now, I think. Second Monday in a row that's given him an opportunity.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 56,095
    Roger said:


    At some point, we will be given the names of the 2 people arrested and we will hear their motivation, as well as their political history.

    I might be inclined to wait till then before alleging the "driving force" of the attack was Saville.
    .

    It doesn't matter what 'the driving force' was. All that matters is what the press and the public believe it to be. This isn't a crime that's being investigated. What the Prime Minister said is now well known.
    Listening to the video Lammy posted Savile appears to have been peripheral and incidental. However, that’s neither the story that’s being written, or likely to be believed.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,504

    Farooq said:

    On topic.

    The End of British Trump getting as messy as end of US Trump. I don’t find any of it amusing, or great chance for opposition parties, I think it all sad and dangerous.

    If we no longer have rules to stick to, rules to respect and stick to, are we even a functioning democracy anymore? If we trash respect in and the credibility of our institutions, if we disregard the spirit, the ethos of our democracy, it’s not going to be that easy to get back is it? When politicians set the mob on each other, can this be set back overnight, merely with change of one leader or government with another?

    They promised Global Britain. This is more like Ignoble Britain.

    I regret to announce that we finally agree
    Good on you mate. 👍🏻

    Can you press the like button on it now please
    never. never. never.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 34,571
    Farooq said:

    "They were only protesting about all the lockdowns and vaccines that Jimmy Savile forced on us" 🤔

    It's only that the Deep State want us to believe that Savile is dead...just think about it sheeple!
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    edited February 7

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    No, I think it is wishful thinking.

    The ones who have already called the comments disgraceful in the Conservative MP ranks have already publicly expressed opposition to him.

    Do we actually have any polling on the Savile comments and what people think of them? Unless a lot of Conservative MPs seriously think this is hurting them in their constituencies, they will not move against BJ.

    Are you still supporting him? I have some respect for such a contrarian stance, but surely it's time for him to go?
    Support is too strong.

    What I care about is someone comes in and supports a proper levelling up agenda. That is not going to be Sunak or Truss. It's not going to be Mourdant or Hunt or Tom Tugging or whatever he is called. I doubt it will be Johnson. But at least if the bulk of his Red Wall MPs have him by the balls, there is a chance he is forced into doing something meaningful. I don't really care who is the vehicle for change, just as long as it happens.

    Plus, being blunt, a lot of the outrage this evening seems confected. It's well known Starmer supported the Government lockdowns and would probably have gone further. So the fact he got surrounded by a bunch of nutjobs and weirdos campaigning against lockdowns is not exactly surprising. They didn't need BJ to tell them to get in Starmer's face. If you want hate, try walking to the Tory conference in Manchester with a sign saying you are Conservative.
    That's a straw man distraction. I've been to the Conservative conference in Manchester (as an NGO standholder), mildly amused to carry a copy of the conference agenda booklet with CONSERVATIVE in big letters at the top, and the delegate badge slung round my neck. If anyone was hating me, they didn't show it.

    What you're seeing at the moment is the separation between traditional Conservative belief - maintain law and order, respect tradition, try to run the country well, stuff vs. New Populist Conservative. You're right that the former tend not to have any special interest in levelling up. But they do to avoid stirring up demons. It's the same division that you get on the left between socialists who are earnestly concerned with inequality and foreign aid vs populist Trots who like a good riot.

    I think that if your party goes for a majority for New Populist Conservatism there will be a rough ride ahead, with multiple defections.
    I think that is right re the split. In that case, I would imagine the RW and the rural parts of the Conservative party would stick together, and the suburban MPs would gravitate to some form of coalition with the Lib Dems, although I think that also triggers a possible realignment of LD politics. BTW, I also think Labour is in danger of being split in a similar way (urbanites to the Greens, for example).

    Where you are wrong is in the phrase "But they do to avoid stirring up demons". That's the phrase - and apologies Nick because I respect you a lot - of someone who has a very comfortable position and doesn't want to face the facts that, for many people in this country, life is sh1t. The demons have already been stirred. People like Trump and (to a degree) Johnson are symptoms, not causes. A well-functioning democracy that looks after all sections of society should not have a need of such people. They exist because many people have been f**ked over and they don't know to whom to turn.

    PS Yes, you are right the last sentence is a straw man argument, so I shouldn't have put it in.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,814
    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Plus, being blunt, a lot of the outrage this evening seems confected. It's well known Starmer supported the Government lockdowns and would probably have gone further. So the fact he got surrounded by a bunch of nutjobs and weirdos campaigning against lockdowns is not exactly surprising. They didn't need BJ to tell them to get in Starmer's face. If you want hate, try walking to the Tory conference in Manchester with a sign saying you are Conservative.

    Starmer did support the lockdowns, and may even have implemented more severe ones had he been in power.

    But I'm struggling to see what that's got to do with anything.

    The meat of the issue is:

    1. Boris Johnson implemented very strict rules on peoples' activities, that prevented them from seeing friends and family; dying relatives; and going to funerals.

    It then turned out that he was having a 'very good time' while the rest of us weren't.

    This was bad, but quite survivable.

    2. He then lied about it on multiple occasions.

    Now, call me old fashioned, but this is where I get upset. The original offence was bad, but the Downing Street team was working incredibly hard, and I'm simply not going to throw my toys out the pram about them having a few drinks in the garden after work.

    A simple apology would have sufficed.

    But Boris doubled down, and lied.

    3. He then attempted to distract from by throwing an accusation - under parliamentary privilege - that appears to be quite... evidence light...

    Now, to me this isn't as bad as 2. I don't think it's appropriate. But it's the rough and tumble of parliamentary life.

    To me, it's the lying I have an issue with. I expect the same from my leaders as I expect from children: an ability to distinguish truth from falsehood.

    Indeed, can there be anything more important to the bond of trust between the governors and the governed? Blair lied, and his reputation never recovered.

    Johnson has lied and lied and lied. And now it's time for him to go.
    I think that is a good assessment.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 53,918

    i reporting that Sunak has been warned he may be reshuffled.


    Time to strike Rishi. Time to strike.

    Yes. Now, I think. Second Monday in a row that's given him an opportunity.
    Hesitating at the hour. Hand twitching. Almost reaching for the prize but something deep inside stays him.

    ...Next.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,504
    edited February 7
    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    "They were only protesting about all the lockdowns and vaccines that Jimmy Savile forced on us" 🤔

    It's only that the Deep State want us to believe that Savile is dead...just think about it sheeple!
    Somewhere in an elite North London borough is a pizza place. There is a basement, and it's full of the sickest paraphernalia you can imagine. Shelves upon shelves of tinned pineapple.
    #TSEAnon
  • Evening all! A nice gentle 14 hour day to start the week. Well I say start, but did several hours on each of Saturday and Sunday as well. Have I missed some fun then...?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,103
    edited February 7
    kyf_100 said:

    Foxy said:

    Britain Trump, right down to using our own little cadre of QAnon

    It isn't just the UK that has seen this growth in anti-lockdown / antivaxxer / conspiracy theory mobs. We are seeing it all across Europe, Australia, Canada, etc. Idle fingers and the internet.

    In fact in the UK, is tiny compared to the regular turn out in places like Germany, France nd Australia.
    I actually walked past them around 4pm on my way across town. I crossed the street to avoid them. There were perhaps fifty of them, they looked like fringe nutjobs. Holding signs up like "when will your bullshit detector turn red" and "why are footballers collapsing???" (yes, with three exclamation marks.

    Adjacent to the anti vaxxer protest in Parliament Square, there was a very loud protest about medical research on beagles, which seemed to attract approximately the same number of people, though the beagle people were louder.

    The people I passed today seemed like a very small, very strange fringe minority.
    There has undoubtedly been radicalisation over the period of covid across many countries. It does seem as if in the UK is much smaller than elsewhere, but I think there is work to be done. People have started off with perhaps been wary of lockdowns and vaccines, and with time on their hands have been led down a much crazier path.

    I am not necessarily a believer in Youtube "radicalises" peopoe simply by the algorithm, but you don't have to look hard to find plenty of people linking lockdown to global elites to great resets and dishonestly using the shifting landscape of the covid pandemic to back up their claims of it been a conspiracy.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,489
    As he was not an mp, what’s the issue? Genuine question.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 25,502
    What's the spread on number of days before Guto leaves (not sure if he resigns or gets sacked, or his boss does) ?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Evening all! A nice gentle 14 hour day to start the week. Well I say start, but did several hours on each of Saturday and Sunday as well. Have I missed some fun then...?

    Slacking RP, I have the same hours but somewhat seemingly find myself drawn in here...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 79,096
    I've been focusing too much on politics, even for me. I was watching the Lion King and kept thinking Boris was Scar, taking down May (Mufasa ignored one part of his kingdom, the 'citizens of nowhere' perhaps), and leading a hungry and desperate group of Hyenas (Tories) with the rather basic plea that they would never go hungry (for power) again, and he quickly led them to total power over the land, but it was led to ruin whilst the lioneses (ministers), waited on some entitled saviour (Rishi) to come and save them rather than act themselves. Now some of the hyenas are starting to tear him apart.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,130
    edited February 7
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    No, I think it is wishful thinking.

    The ones who have already called the comments disgraceful in the Conservative MP ranks have already publicly expressed opposition to him.

    Do we actually have any polling on the Savile comments and what people think of them? Unless a lot of Conservative MPs seriously think this is hurting them in their constituencies, they will not move against BJ.

    Are you still supporting him? I have some respect for such a contrarian stance, but surely it's time for him to go?
    Support is too strong.

    What I care about is someone comes in and supports a proper levelling up agenda. That is not going to be Sunak or Truss. It's not going to be Mourdant or Hunt or Tom Tugging or whatever he is called. I doubt it will be Johnson. But at least if the bulk of his Red Wall MPs have him by the balls, there is a chance he is forced into doing something meaningful. I don't really care who is the vehicle for change, just as long as it happens.

    Plus, being blunt, a lot of the outrage this evening seems confected. It's well known Starmer supported the Government lockdowns and would probably have gone further. So the fact he got surrounded by a bunch of nutjobs and weirdos campaigning against lockdowns is not exactly surprising. They didn't need BJ to tell them to get in Starmer's face. If you want hate, try walking to the Tory conference in Manchester with a sign saying you are Conservative.
    That's a straw man distraction. I've been to the Conservative conference in Manchester (as an NGO standholder), mildly amused to carry a copy of the conference agenda booklet with CONSERVATIVE in big letters at the top, and the delegate badge slung round my neck. If anyone was hating me, they didn't show it.

    What you're seeing at the moment is the separation between traditional Conservative belief - maintain law and order, respect tradition, try to run the country well, stuff vs. New Populist Conservative. You're right that the former tend not to have any special interest in levelling up. But they do to avoid stirring up demons. It's the same division that you get on the left between socialists who are earnestly concerned with inequality and foreign aid vs populist Trots who like a good riot.

    I think that if your party goes for a majority for New Populist Conservatism there will be a rough ride ahead, with multiple defections.
    I think that is right re the split. In that case, I would imagine the RW and the rural parts of the Conservative party would stick together, and the suburban MPs would gravitate to some form of coalition with the Lib Dems, although I think that also triggers a possible realignment of LD politics. BTW, I also think Labour is in danger of being split in a similar way (urbanites to the Greens, for example).

    Where you are wrong is in the phrase "But they do to avoid stirring up demons". That's the phrase - and apologies Nick because I respect you a lot - of someone who has a very comfortable position and doesn't want to face the facts that, for many people in this country, life is sh1t. The demons have already been stirred. People like Trump and (to a degree) Johnson are symptoms, not causes. A well-functioning democracy that looks after all sections of society should not have a need of such people. They exist because many people have been f**ked over and they don't know to whom to turn.
    Those particular demons you're describing are the result of a doctrinaire and fundamentalist post-Thatcherite and Reaganite capitalism, still prevailing in the U.S and U.K with few evolutions, which Johnson and Trump also represent. They have very successfully stoked culture war and identity demons, sometimes with the unwitting help of less wise parts of the left, to distract attraction from those other demons.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 41,362
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    No, I think it is wishful thinking.

    The ones who have already called the comments disgraceful in the Conservative MP ranks have already publicly expressed opposition to him.

    Do we actually have any polling on the Savile comments and what people think of them? Unless a lot of Conservative MPs seriously think this is hurting them in their constituencies, they will not move against BJ.

    Are you still supporting him? I have some respect for such a contrarian stance, but surely it's time for him to go?
    Support is too strong.

    What I care about is someone comes in and supports a proper levelling up agenda. That is not going to be Sunak or Truss. It's not going to be Mourdant or Hunt or Tom Tugging or whatever he is called. I doubt it will be Johnson. But at least if the bulk of his Red Wall MPs have him by the balls, there is a chance he is forced into doing something meaningful. I don't really care who is the vehicle for change, just as long as it happens.

    Plus, being blunt, a lot of the outrage this evening seems confected. It's well known Starmer supported the Government lockdowns and would probably have gone further. So the fact he got surrounded by a bunch of nutjobs and weirdos campaigning against lockdowns is not exactly surprising. They didn't need BJ to tell them to get in Starmer's face. If you want hate, try walking to the Tory conference in Manchester with a sign saying you are Conservative.
    That's a straw man distraction. I've been to the Conservative conference in Manchester (as an NGO standholder), mildly amused to carry a copy of the conference agenda booklet with CONSERVATIVE in big letters at the top, and the delegate badge slung round my neck. If anyone was hating me, they didn't show it.

    What you're seeing at the moment is the separation between traditional Conservative belief - maintain law and order, respect tradition, try to run the country well, stuff vs. New Populist Conservative. You're right that the former tend not to have any special interest in levelling up. But they do to avoid stirring up demons. It's the same division that you get on the left between socialists who are earnestly concerned with inequality and foreign aid vs populist Trots who like a good riot.

    I think that if your party goes for a majority for New Populist Conservatism there will be a rough ride ahead, with multiple defections.
    I think that is right re the split. In that case, I would imagine the RW and the rural parts of the Conservative party would stick together, and the suburban MPs would gravitate to some form of coalition with the Lib Dems, although I think that also triggers a possible realignment of LD politics. BTW, I also think Labour is in danger of being split in a similar way (urbanites to the Greens, for example).

    Where you are wrong is in the phrase "But they do to avoid stirring up demons". That's the phrase - and apologies Nick because I respect you a lot - of someone who has a very comfortable position and doesn't want to face the facts that, for many people in this country, life is sh1t. The demons have already been stirred. People like Trump and (to a degree) Johnson are symptoms, not causes. A well-functioning democracy that looks after all sections of society should not have a need of such people. They exist because many people have been f**ked over and they don't know to whom to turn.

    PS Yes, you are right the last sentence is a straw man argument, so I shouldn't have put it in.
    For those that missed it, the two-parter on BBC2 iplayer “The decade the rich won” is well worth a watch. None of the parties come out of it well.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,504
    In Series 20 of South Park there is a character called Dildo Schwaggins.
    I don't know why I just thought of him.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 25,502

    As he was not an mp, what’s the issue? Genuine question.

    Mebbe this bit...

    Sir Eddie v candid about PM’s views, suggesting he did not want ban but was “caught” between pressure from Tories and US: “This PM is not anti-China and is not Donald Trump.”
    Added PM “believes in good relationships with China. He is not coming from a negative place in any way”.

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1490807768307187718
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 53,918
    Scott_xP said:

    What's the spread on number of days before Guto leaves (not sure if he resigns or gets sacked, or his boss does) ?

    He has himself put a 6 month maximum on it.

    The wags on twitter reckon that is because he wants a four month round-the-world holiday before he starts back at the PR/lobby company.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Plus, being blunt, a lot of the outrage this evening seems confected. It's well known Starmer supported the Government lockdowns and would probably have gone further. So the fact he got surrounded by a bunch of nutjobs and weirdos campaigning against lockdowns is not exactly surprising. They didn't need BJ to tell them to get in Starmer's face. If you want hate, try walking to the Tory conference in Manchester with a sign saying you are Conservative.

    Starmer did support the lockdowns, and may even have implemented more severe ones had he been in power.

    But I'm struggling to see what that's got to do with anything.

    The meat of the issue is:

    1. Boris Johnson implemented very strict rules on peoples' activities, that prevented them from seeing friends and family; dying relatives; and going to funerals.

    It then turned out that he was having a 'very good time' while the rest of us weren't.

    This was bad, but quite survivable.

    2. He then lied about it on multiple occasions.

    Now, call me old fashioned, but this is where I get upset. The original offence was bad, but the Downing Street team was working incredibly hard, and I'm simply not going to throw my toys out the pram about them having a few drinks in the garden after work.

    A simple apology would have sufficed.

    But Boris doubled down, and lied.

    3. He then attempted to distract from by throwing an accusation - under parliamentary privilege - that appears to be quite... evidence light...

    Now, to me this isn't as bad as 2. I don't think it's appropriate. But it's the rough and tumble of parliamentary life.

    To me, it's the lying I have an issue with. I expect the same from my leaders as I expect from children: an ability to distinguish truth from falsehood.

    Indeed, can there be anything more important to the bond of trust between the governors and the governed? Blair lied, and his reputation never recovered.

    Johnson has lied and lied and lied. And now it's time for him to go.
    I'm referring to the outrage about tonight, not against Johnson in general.

    Chances are, if Johnson had walked down that street, he would have similarly got attacked, only it would have been that he was taking the p1ss by drinking whilst imposing lockdowns.

    The people were / are nutjobs. Trying to say their behaviour was caused by BJ is a stretch.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 79,096

    As he was not an mp, what’s the issue? Genuine question.
    Well it's for a cause which is now politically toxic with much of the parliamentary party even if it was not at the time, and more impotantly its more a sign of low grade rebellion that rather than sit on stuff people are trying to rip off the bandages Boris is trying to apply to a gaping wound.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 2,833
    I dislike Johnson and would like to see him removed from office, but the Starmer/Savile thing is not going to be the end of him.

    Worth pointing out that Boris Johnson is pretty sensible compared to Jeremy Corbyn, someone whom many people on here voted for. Corbyn's ideas about Russia spring to mind immediately as being actually dangerous.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 41,362
    And further evidence that there are so many former and current staffers at number ten keen to bring the clown down, that the place leaks like a sieve
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 34,571
    edited February 7

    i reporting that Sunak has been warned he may be reshuffled.


    Time to strike Rishi. Time to strike.

    Rishi looked a bit sheepish out doing Camera stunts with Johnson, for the launch that didn't happen for Big Dog and his red meat.

    The launch that didn't happen today was the NHS recovery plan. That is being painted as Sunak not being willing to cough up, but I think it more that Number 10 thinks the plan far too pessimistic. Johnson wants to be able to point at sunlight uplands, though the reality is rather more a dank and gloomy quagmire.

    What needs fixing has no quick cure. In particular a junior workforce that has significantly deskilled, and specialist nurses have left. Getting waiting lists back down will take nearly a decade, much as it did in the New Labour years. At the moment they are still growing, albeit at a slower rate.
This discussion has been closed.