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The top pollster from GE2019 has LAB lead in double figures – politicalbetting.com

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    Leon said:

    A lot of Brexiteering Tory MPs (ie most of them) will see the assassination of Boris as Remainer revenge, even if, irony of ironies, it has been executed so perfectly by arch-Brexiteer Dom C.

    They will be in no mood to elect a Remainer leader. Hunt won't make it to the last two. Truss is also a Remainer, but she might sneak through as "looking a bit like the next Thatcher", if the Tories are desperate

    Sunak, of course, voted Leave. He has that advantage, as well

    I reckon if Boris goes (and it is odds-on now, how can you possibly come back from this kind of polling) then Sunak replaces him, if the Tories have any sense (yes, yes)

    I think this is why Boris will survive. It's all too symbolic. Tories see Boris as the very personification of Brexit and to remove him will seem like a repudiation of Brexit itself and a tacit acknowledgement of its failure.
    I just do not agree and his successor will very much support brexit though maybe with a more cooperative attitude
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited January 2022
    Leon said:

    Putin invading Sweden would be a genius move by the year 2022. How could it possibly outdo 2021 for drama?

    Aha!

    I like the Swedes but unfortunately for them Sweden is not in NATO.

    So if Putin invaded Sweden we would have no obligation to defend them.

    Perhaps Stuart Dickson can mobilise a quick militia or else take a crash course in Russian!
  • Options
    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    One theory going round is that the Russians are seriously p1ssed about the Kazakhstan uprising and think that the US had a hand in it. Hence the ratcheting up of tensions.
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,132

    It seems like only yesterday that most commentators, here and elsewhere, regarded a Labour majority government as impossible, and a Labour-led minority government implausible.

    How quickly times change - it's amazing what a few parties can do.

    It's far too early to make pronouncements on this subject, although Johnson is now so deeply in the mire and such an object of contempt that almost everyone agrees that a Tory defeat is more likely if he remains in office.

    There are a few things that we can say, however. For example, that yet another Conservative-led Government post the next GE would be an historic achievement, but that a swing massive enough to generate a Labour majority would also be of historic proportions (more extreme than 1997, I believe.)

    Factoring in both this and the massively strong position of the SNP, you would have to count a Labour minority (as opposed to a coalition, which is in the interest of neither Labour nor the SNP,) as the most likely outcome following the next election. However, should the Conservatives remove Johnson and install a replacement who transpires to be effective, then the path to another win is still open to them. They would have to suffer significant losses to erase their entire majority, the lost Labour voters in the North and Midlands aren't just going to troop back en masse, the electorate isn't yet sold on either Starmer or his party, and any new Prime Minister will likely stick it out until 2024 and hope that inflationary pressures subside and economic conditions improve in their favour (along with receiving some modest assistance from the boundary changes.)

    In short, it's fun pointing at all these dire polls for the Tories and speculating on what they might mean, but an election may be (and quite possibly will be) over two years away, and there's an awful lot that can happen between then and now. Starting with some resolution to the Johnson saga.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    Labour have a lead of 43% - 33% in "All seats Labour has lost since 2005" in this Opinium poll.

    Given that would include 40 seats in Scotland where they are now pretty much nowhere, that must mean a huge lead in England.
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    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak has 45% thinking he would make a good PM.

    However Javid, Hunt, Gove, Truss and Patel all have 30% or less thinking they would make a good PM. All below the 31% Tory voteshare with Boris tonight.

    Therefore only replacing Boris with Sunak likely to see any bounce for the Tories at all

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1482444647351865353?s=20

    That being the case, why hasn't Sunak quietly asked his supporters to write letters to Graham Brady?

    Does he not have enough supporters in the Parliamentary Party who would like to see him become PM? Is he worried about losing the leadership contest?
    Neither Sunak nor Truss nor Hunt have many MPs pushing their case, which probably gives an idea of their supporter base.

    Wait for it. As did John Churchill . . . for the proper moment to strike his tent and wave bye-bye to James II . . .
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,053
    TimS said:

    Boris now needs to go off into exile somewhere obscure for a couple of years, re-emerging a chastened and humble man, full of regrets but ready with a few wise words for those who follow (Of course he won’t but it’s a nice thought).

    Actually, hypothetical question time:

    You are a famous intellectual who has fallen out of favour with the ruling family in the small autocracy that you call home, and must now flee the country.

    You hole up in a small, once fashionable resort town where you spend a decade or more, making of it a kind of home but without ever losing a deep, aching yearning for your homeland. You can be regularly spotted sipping a coffee at the cafe on the corner, or taking in the sunset at a nearby viewpoint.

    Which resort town do you choose?

    Got to be Italian-speaking Switzerland or one of the old Czech spa towns. Marienbad

    Or Hyeres
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,144
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    MrEd said:

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    One theory going round is that the Russians are seriously p1ssed about the Kazakhstan uprising and think that the US had a hand in it. Hence the ratcheting up of tensions.
    That doesn't really refute my suggestion that Putin has completely lost touch with reality...
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,053
    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

    The element of surprise
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,672
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Kaboom.

    Boris Johnson is deader than a DODO, you cannot recover from these results

    63% now think the Prime Minister should resign, nearly three times the 22% who think he should remain as Conservative Party leader.

    48% of those who voted Conservative in 2019 think he should go, with just 37% thinking he should stay.

    He’s toast. There’s no way back from this. Not for the Tories.
    I may try and work in a reference to a niche website into one of tomorrow's headers.
    Would this be one where you’d find the odd Stepmom or two ?
    Possibly.
    What I don't understand is why no Stepdads ever feature. Very non PC.
    You don't watch a lot of porn, do you?
    No, actually. Not since that weird Yugoslav film about orgone energy as a student, I think.
    I'm not sure I can let that one pass without a bemused look.
    Found it!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W.R.:_Mysteries_of_the_Organism

    I misread that as Mysteries of the Orgasm.

    Having read the article, that would, still make sense...
    I think quite a lot of the 1983 audience did make that misreading, too. Though I was a member of the Uni film club anyway and got to see quite a mixture - I have a feeling I persuaded them to put on the Bill Douglas trilogy.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

    Abba!

    Putin's an Abba fan!
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,517

    It seems like only yesterday that most commentators, here and elsewhere, regarded a Labour majority government as impossible, and a Labour-led minority government as implausible.

    How quickly times change - it's amazing what a few parties can do.

    It seems to me that a bit of balance is required. There may be no election until May 2024 (and even Dec 2024 if the FTPA is repealed) and just as nothing about December 2019 tells you how things are now, now may tell you nothing about the 2024 GE.

    Yes, a Labour majority government is possible, but (IMHO) remains at under a 10% chance - well below what the bookies think - but they are right to make a Tory majority the favourite (15/8), Lab minority second (3/1).

    Until all this farrago of nonsense arose I felt that the % were about 45% each for Tory majority and Lab led minority government, the other 10% for remoter outcomes. Recent events make it more like 40%- Tory majority, 45%+ for Lab led alliance; 10%- Lab majority; 5% for goodness knows what else.

    There is value in 3/1 Labour minority government. But don't bet the farm.

  • Options

    Well you can't argue there a range of expert topics discussed on PB, seamlessly moving from quality of high street lunch offerings to trends in porn kinks.

    I blame The Economist.

    These are some of their porn themed articles.

    A user’s manual

    Hardcore, abundant and free: what is online pornography doing to sexual tastes—and youngsters’ minds?


    https://www.economist.com/international/2015/09/26/a-users-manual

    Pornography is booming during the covid-19 lockdowns
    Social-distancing rules prompt performers to offer private webcam-shows


    https://www.economist.com/international/2020/05/10/pornography-is-booming-during-the-covid-19-lockdowns

    Sex and the internet.

    Devices and desires

    Is lascivious online content, traditionally on top, losing its lustre?


    https://www.economist.com/business/2007/04/19/devices-and-desires

    Are you into productivity porn or yak shaving?

    https://www.economist.com/1843/2021/04/12/are-you-into-productivity-porn-or-yak-shaving

    Which countries do porn sites get their traffic from? This graph from PornHub is a handy guide


    http://econ.st/1MNPCGb


  • Options
    TimS said:

    Boris now needs to go off into exile somewhere obscure for a couple of years, re-emerging a chastened and humble man, full of regrets but ready with a few wise words for those who follow (Of course he won’t but it’s a nice thought).

    Actually, hypothetical question time:

    You are a famous intellectual who has fallen out of favour with the ruling family in the small autocracy that you call home, and must now flee the country.

    You hole up in a small, once fashionable resort town where you spend a decade or more, making of it a kind of home but without ever losing a deep, aching yearning for your homeland. You can be regularly spotted sipping a coffee at the cafe on the corner, or taking in the sunset at a nearby viewpoint.

    Which resort town do you choose?

    Cadiz.

    Barcelona has probably got the whole "how to live well" thing more sorted than anywhere else in the world, but it's hardly a small resort.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,563
    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    Surely Putin isn't stupid enough to attack Sweden.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,144
    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

    Abba!

    Putin's an Abba fan!
    So he’s not all bad.
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

    IKEA?
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,192
    Labour are also picking up 10% of Tory 2019 voters, compared to 26% who say don't know/won't vote. The number of direct switchers is picking up I think.
  • Options
    apologies IF this has already been posted . . .

    Ricky Nelson - Garden Party (1972)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3yHL9RXlRM

    Went to a garden party to reminisce with my old friends
    A chance to share old memories and play our songs again
    When I got to the garden party, they all knew my name
    No one recognized me, I didn't look the same

    But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well
    You see, ya can't please everyone
    So you've got to please yourself
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

    Abba!

    Putin's an Abba fan!
    So he’s not all bad.
    Mumma Mia though, it'll be his Waterloo.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,053
    If Putin attacks Sweden I think Britain should launch a unilateral attack on the Bahamas AND Mongolia, just for the lolz. Also, we would win, as everyone else would be distracted
  • Options
    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    pigeon said:

    It seems like only yesterday that most commentators, here and elsewhere, regarded a Labour majority government as impossible, and a Labour-led minority government implausible.

    How quickly times change - it's amazing what a few parties can do.

    It's far too early to make pronouncements on this subject, although Johnson is now so deeply in the mire and such an object of contempt that almost everyone agrees that a Tory defeat is more likely if he remains in office.

    There are a few things that we can say, however. For example, that yet another Conservative-led Government post the next GE would be an historic achievement, but that a swing massive enough to generate a Labour majority would also be of historic proportions (more extreme than 1997, I believe.)

    Factoring in both this and the massively strong position of the SNP, you would have to count a Labour minority (as opposed to a coalition, which is in the interest of neither Labour nor the SNP,) as the most likely outcome following the next election. However, should the Conservatives remove Johnson and install a replacement who transpires to be effective, then the path to another win is still open to them. They would have to suffer significant losses to erase their entire majority, the lost Labour voters in the North and Midlands aren't just going to troop back en masse, the electorate isn't yet sold on either Starmer or his party, and any new Prime Minister will likely stick it out until 2024 and hope that inflationary pressures subside and economic conditions improve in their favour (along with receiving some modest assistance from the boundary changes.)

    In short, it's fun pointing at all these dire polls for the Tories and speculating on what they might mean, but an election may be (and quite possibly will be) over two years away, and there's an awful lot that can happen between then and now. Starting with some resolution to the Johnson saga.
    You can see it in Labour’s general attitude (and on here from SKS’ fans) that their view is that BJ led ‘their’ voters astray and once the pied piper is gone, they will all come flocking back to their natural home. That is naive.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    Russians have a bit of a thing about Sweden. We annoy them.

    Anyone annoy the English?
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,144
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

    The element of surprise
    As it is being openly discussed, and in Sweden they are saying it cannot be discounted, it would hardly be a surprise
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    Russians have a bit of a thing about Sweden. We annoy them.

    Anyone annoy the English?
    Some try...
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    Russians have a bit of a thing about Sweden. We annoy them.

    Anyone annoy the English?
    Nobody, everybody loves us, it is why English is the lingua franca of the world.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    Russians have a bit of a thing about Sweden. We annoy them.

    Anyone annoy the English?
    ^ that is a trap
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    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623


    Are you into productivity porn or yak shaving?

    I ask myself that all the time. Wait, no I don't.
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,540
    pigeon said:

    It seems like only yesterday that most commentators, here and elsewhere, regarded a Labour majority government as impossible, and a Labour-led minority government implausible.

    How quickly times change - it's amazing what a few parties can do.

    It's far too early to make pronouncements on this subject, although Johnson is now so deeply in the mire and such an object of contempt that almost everyone agrees that a Tory defeat is more likely if he remains in office.

    There are a few things that we can say, however. For example, that yet another Conservative-led Government post the next GE would be an historic achievement, but that a swing massive enough to generate a Labour majority would also be of historic proportions (more extreme than 1997, I believe.)

    Factoring in both this and the massively strong position of the SNP, you would have to count a Labour minority (as opposed to a coalition, which is in the interest of neither Labour nor the SNP,) as the most likely outcome following the next election. However, should the Conservatives remove Johnson and install a replacement who transpires to be effective, then the path to another win is still open to them. They would have to suffer significant losses to erase their entire majority, the lost Labour voters in the North and Midlands aren't just going to troop back en masse, the electorate isn't yet sold on either Starmer or his party, and any new Prime Minister will likely stick it out until 2024 and hope that inflationary pressures subside and economic conditions improve in their favour (along with receiving some modest assistance from the boundary changes.)

    In short, it's fun pointing at all these dire polls for the Tories and speculating on what they might mean, but an election may be (and quite possibly will be) over two years away, and there's an awful lot that can happen between then and now. Starting with some resolution to the Johnson saga.
    I wasn't making a pronouncement. I think the result of the next GE is absolutely wide open still, and it's hard to predict - of course the Tories could still win a handsome majority. Events, and all that.

    I was merely pointing out that a few months ago most people thought Labour were unelectable. That has changed - mainly because of Boris, but also because of steady improvements in the Labour leader and his SC team.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078
    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

    Gotland is very important strategically to the Baltic and defending Kaliningrad.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    Russians have a bit of a thing about Sweden. We annoy them.

    Anyone annoy the English?
    Well, duh, the French. I'm surprised you even had to ask.
  • Options
    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

    Sweden has a "rightful" claim to the area around St Petersburg.
  • Options

    TimS said:

    Boris now needs to go off into exile somewhere obscure for a couple of years, re-emerging a chastened and humble man, full of regrets but ready with a few wise words for those who follow (Of course he won’t but it’s a nice thought).

    Actually, hypothetical question time:

    You are a famous intellectual who has fallen out of favour with the ruling family in the small autocracy that you call home, and must now flee the country.

    You hole up in a small, once fashionable resort town where you spend a decade or more, making of it a kind of home but without ever losing a deep, aching yearning for your homeland. You can be regularly spotted sipping a coffee at the cafe on the corner, or taking in the sunset at a nearby viewpoint.

    Which resort town do you choose?

    Cadiz.

    Barcelona has probably got the whole "how to live well" thing more sorted than anywhere else in the world, but it's hardly a small resort.
    Barcelona was the last destination I visited abroad, way back in October 2019...
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,144

    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

    IKEA?
    The vegetable, the swede, as well. And the delicacy fermented fish.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,171

    My controversial NHS opinion is that we should get rid of GP surgeries and instead expand the 111 service, as they're crap anyway.

    Why have "care navigators" of varying degrees of incompetence dotted around the country instead of big call centres in regional hubs, where standards can be monitored.

    GPS vary widely. Ours is too small for the size of the population it serves, but they try hard. GPs cover a multitude of functions, and are generally the first port of call, hence primary care. They need to have the ability to sort those who need reassurance and/or minor treatment from those who need passing on for more attention in secondary care. That’s easier where gps know the patients and their history. As a case in point my leukaemia diagnosis was expidited because when I presented with the vague symptoms I did, it was out of the ordinary, so the go was concerned. Much more so than for a ‘frequent flyer’ worried well who is in every two weeks.
    I think we need both. I personally think there is mileage for walk in gp surgeries, in parallel with minor injury units. But keep the practices where they know you and your medical history.
    I also think that pharmacists will be doing a lot more soon, such as prescriptions for antibiotics etc (think triaging chest infections vs cough/cold).
    Healthcare is complex, and needs complex solutions. What works for a man in his twenties may not for a woman in her eighties.

  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    Russians have a bit of a thing about Sweden. We annoy them.

    Anyone annoy the English?
    Nobody, everybody loves us, it is why English is the lingua franca of the world.
    I asked if anyone annoys the English, not if you lot annoy other peoples.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,053
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

    The element of surprise
    As it is being openly discussed, and in Sweden they are saying it cannot be discounted, it would hardly be a surprise
    i dunno. If I turn on TV tomorrow and I see Russian tanks rolling through Stockholm and Malmo a heap of Mig-pounded ruins, I'd still be slightly *surprised*, despite this entertaining discussion
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Leon said:

    If Putin attacks Sweden I think Britain should launch a unilateral attack on the Bahamas AND Mongolia, just for the lolz. Also, we would win, as everyone else would be distracted

    Well Boris needs a Falklands moment
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,620
    Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    Not convinced of the efficacy of tanks vs submarines.
    Sounds a bit HYUFD.
    Surely it depends where the tanks and submarines are when battle commences. If both on land or both in the sea it will seem a bit one sided either way. If one in sea and one on land it would seem like a stalemate regardless of which way around they are although casualties much heavier one way around than the other.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,053

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    Russians have a bit of a thing about Sweden. We annoy them.

    Anyone annoy the English?
    Nobody, everybody loves us, it is why English is the lingua franca of the world.
    I asked if anyone annoys the English, not if you lot annoy other peoples.
    The French irritate, the Americans can chafe, the Germans sometimes exasperate. We don't give a fuck about the Scots. Sorry
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

    Sweden ?
    Or what’s left of it should they really be serious.

    More likely a bloody nose.
    Most likely it’s just Putin dicking around for the lolz.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,658
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

    The element of surprise
    As it is being openly discussed, and in Sweden they are saying it cannot be discounted, it would hardly be a surprise
    i dunno. If I turn on TV tomorrow and I see Russian tanks rolling through Stockholm and Malmo a heap of Mig-pounded ruins, I'd still be slightly *surprised*, despite this entertaining discussion
    It would definitely be time for the "We're all fucked" post tbf.
  • Options
    Well now.


  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,591
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Boris now needs to go off into exile somewhere obscure for a couple of years, re-emerging a chastened and humble man, full of regrets but ready with a few wise words for those who follow (Of course he won’t but it’s a nice thought).

    Actually, hypothetical question time:

    You are a famous intellectual who has fallen out of favour with the ruling family in the small autocracy that you call home, and must now flee the country.

    You hole up in a small, once fashionable resort town where you spend a decade or more, making of it a kind of home but without ever losing a deep, aching yearning for your homeland. You can be regularly spotted sipping a coffee at the cafe on the corner, or taking in the sunset at a nearby viewpoint.

    Which resort town do you choose?

    Got to be Italian-speaking Switzerland or one of the old Czech spa towns. Marienbad

    Or Hyeres
    I’m narrowing it down to somewhere depressing near the North Sea, like Schevening or Ostend.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,192

    My controversial NHS opinion is that we should get rid of GP surgeries and instead expand the 111 service, as they're crap anyway.

    Why have "care navigators" of varying degrees of incompetence dotted around the country instead of big call centres in regional hubs, where standards can be monitored.

    I'd certainly abolish the role of GPs, but I think there's value in face-to-face consultation, so I'd have cheaper primary care centres with triage nurses as part of the 111 service, and as part of community-based public health - services like weight-loss help, stopping smoking, etc.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078

    My controversial NHS opinion is that we should get rid of GP surgeries and instead expand the 111 service, as they're crap anyway.

    Why have "care navigators" of varying degrees of incompetence dotted around the country instead of big call centres in regional hubs, where standards can be monitored.

    GPS vary widely. Ours is too small for the size of the population it serves, but they try hard. GPs cover a multitude of functions, and are generally the first port of call, hence primary care. They need to have the ability to sort those who need reassurance and/or minor treatment from those who need passing on for more attention in secondary care. That’s easier where gps know the patients and their history. As a case in point my leukaemia diagnosis was expidited because when I presented with the vague symptoms I did, it was out of the ordinary, so the go was concerned. Much more so than for a ‘frequent flyer’ worried well who is in every two weeks.
    I think we need both. I personally think there is mileage for walk in gp surgeries, in parallel with minor injury units. But keep the practices where they know you and your medical history.
    I also think that pharmacists will be doing a lot more soon, such as prescriptions for antibiotics etc (think triaging chest infections vs cough/cold).
    Healthcare is complex, and needs complex solutions. What works for a man in his twenties may not for a woman in her eighties.

    In my recent infection scare I called my GP and was, in effect, told to fuck off and call back tomorrow when the "emergency appointments" are "released".

    I called 111 and they were actually interested in my symptoms and organised me an appointment at a local walk in centre within 4 hours.

    The latter is the future.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    Russians have a bit of a thing about Sweden. We annoy them.

    Anyone annoy the English?
    Well, duh, the French. I'm surprised you even had to ask.
    Ah, yes, of course, la Vieille Alliance.

    But you guys love the Argentinians don’t you? And the Germans? And the Scots? Of course you do. Hatchets we’re buried long ago.
  • Options
    Tory MPs will be ready in sufficient numbers to force Boris Johnson out of Downing Street within weeks if he tries to dodge responsibility for rule-breaking parties at No 10, the Observer has been told.

    While most Conservative MPs say they are waiting for a report into so-called “partygate” by the senior civil servant Sue Gray before deciding the prime minister’s fate, large numbers admit privately that their minds are effectively made up and that they are merely observing “due process”.

    What has convinced many Tory MPs to act against Johnson if he or the Downing Street operation is criticised directly or indirectly by Gray – and he then tries to fight on – has been the furious reaction from their constituents to new revelations of partying, including two events late into the night at No 10, on the eve of Prince Philip’s funeral last April when such gatherings were forbidden.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/15/tories-will-oust-boris-johnson-if-he-tries-to-dodge-partygate-blame
  • Options
    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    ydoethur said:

    MrEd said:

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    One theory going round is that the Russians are seriously p1ssed about the Kazakhstan uprising and think that the US had a hand in it. Hence the ratcheting up of tensions.
    That doesn't really refute my suggestion that Putin has completely lost touch with reality...
    Hadn’t seen your post so apologies. I think Putin is feeling multiple pressures (COVID, opposition, US about to become a big exporter of gas etc). A number of Biden’s team are also not big fans of Russia (shades of Clinton in 2016). It’s probably a bit more dangerous of a situation than we assume (still don’t think they will invade Sweden though).
  • Options
    Wonder if President Putin ever heard of Lord Nelson turning his blind eye at Copenhagen?
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078

    My controversial NHS opinion is that we should get rid of GP surgeries and instead expand the 111 service, as they're crap anyway.

    Why have "care navigators" of varying degrees of incompetence dotted around the country instead of big call centres in regional hubs, where standards can be monitored.

    I'd certainly abolish the role of GPs, but I think there's value in face-to-face consultation, so I'd have cheaper primary care centres with triage nurses as part of the 111 service, and as part of community-based public health - services like weight-loss help, stopping smoking, etc.
    I agree entirely.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    edited January 2022

    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

    Sweden has a "rightful" claim to the area around St Petersburg.
    Deleted - muddled Finland and Sweden.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    Russians have a bit of a thing about Sweden. We annoy them.

    Anyone annoy the English?
    Well, duh, the French. I'm surprised you even had to ask.
    Ah, yes, of course, la Vieille Alliance.

    But you guys love the Argentinians don’t you? And the Germans? And the Scots? Of course you do. Hatchets we’re buried long ago.
    I absolutely adore the Germans, one in particular.
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    edited January 2022

    My controversial NHS opinion is that we should get rid of GP surgeries and instead expand the 111 service, as they're crap anyway.

    Why have "care navigators" of varying degrees of incompetence dotted around the country instead of big call centres in regional hubs, where standards can be monitored.

    GPS vary widely. Ours is too small for the size of the population it serves, but they try hard. GPs cover a multitude of functions, and are generally the first port of call, hence primary care. They need to have the ability to sort those who need reassurance and/or minor treatment from those who need passing on for more attention in secondary care. That’s easier where gps know the patients and their history. As a case in point my leukaemia diagnosis was expidited because when I presented with the vague symptoms I did, it was out of the ordinary, so the go was concerned. Much more so than for a ‘frequent flyer’ worried well who is in every two weeks.
    I think we need both. I personally think there is mileage for walk in gp surgeries, in parallel with minor injury units. But keep the practices where they know you and your medical history.
    I also think that pharmacists will be doing a lot more soon, such as prescriptions for antibiotics etc (think triaging chest infections vs cough/cold).
    Healthcare is complex, and needs complex solutions. What works for a man in his twenties may not for a woman in her eighties.

    In my recent infection scare I called my GP and was, in effect, told to fuck off and call back tomorrow when the "emergency appointments" are "released".

    I called 111 and they were actually interested in my symptoms and organised me an appointment at a local walk in centre within 4 hours.

    The latter is the future.
    I always find 111 a bit weird.

    From personal experience it seems to exist to occupy the space between "it's not so serious that it can't be dealt with by your GP in the next few days" and the "omigod why haven't you already phoned 999"?

    In simple terms it seems to be for all those instances where it's serious enough to go to hospital but not so serious you can't drive yourself there.

    In my experience, anyway
  • Options
    Right, night all, I need to rewrite both of tomorrow's threads.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,517
    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

    It would up the stakes of their probing of non Nato territory which is disconcerting the west bigly. At some point (Murphy's principle) the EU is going to discover that agreement on My Little Pony sticker protocols fails to make up for having a state like entity with differing defence alliances and policies, no army and no defence policy which has absentmindedly alienated their nuclear friend called the UK by sheer stupidity.

    Finland is the obvious next step. Then Sweden. Then Ireland.

    A few years ago it would be unthinkable that Russia would annexe part of the Ukraine without a murmur. What I have said in the above paragraph is also unthinkable.

  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,171

    My controversial NHS opinion is that we should get rid of GP surgeries and instead expand the 111 service, as they're crap anyway.

    Why have "care navigators" of varying degrees of incompetence dotted around the country instead of big call centres in regional hubs, where standards can be monitored.

    GPS vary widely. Ours is too small for the size of the population it serves, but they try hard. GPs cover a multitude of functions, and are generally the first port of call, hence primary care. They need to have the ability to sort those who need reassurance and/or minor treatment from those who need passing on for more attention in secondary care. That’s easier where gps know the patients and their history. As a case in point my leukaemia diagnosis was expidited because when I presented with the vague symptoms I did, it was out of the ordinary, so the go was concerned. Much more so than for a ‘frequent flyer’ worried well who is in every two weeks.
    I think we need both. I personally think there is mileage for walk in gp surgeries, in parallel with minor injury units. But keep the practices where they know you and your medical history.
    I also think that pharmacists will be doing a lot more soon, such as prescriptions for antibiotics etc (think triaging chest infections vs cough/cold).
    Healthcare is complex, and needs complex solutions. What works for a man in his twenties may not for a woman in her eighties.

    In my recent infection scare I called my GP and was, in effect, told to fuck off and call back tomorrow when the "emergency appointments" are "released".

    I called 111 and they were actually interested in my symptoms and organised me an appointment at a local walk in centre within 4 hours.

    The latter is the future.
    I hope you have complained. As I say GPS vary widely.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    If Putin attacks Sweden I think Britain should launch a unilateral attack on the Bahamas AND Mongolia, just for the lolz. Also, we would win, as everyone else would be distracted

    Well Boris needs a Falklands moment
    Knowing Boris he’d be snorting coke and shagging his new mistress as British troops were being slaughtered on the streets of Ulaanbaatar.

    One rule for plebs, another for Boris.
  • Options

    Right, night all, I need to rewrite both of tomorrow's threads.

    At this rate, you may need to rewrite them tomorrow morning!
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,053

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    Russians have a bit of a thing about Sweden. We annoy them.

    Anyone annoy the English?
    Well, duh, the French. I'm surprised you even had to ask.
    Ah, yes, of course, la Vieille Alliance.

    But you guys love the Argentinians don’t you? And the Germans? And the Scots? Of course you do. Hatchets we’re buried long ago.
    You're really desperate for us to say THE SCOTS aren't you? Its so touching. You hid it away in the third position. After the Argies and the Germans. A plaintive final note, "what about us Scots, don't we annoy you, please?"

    The Scottish inferiority complex vis-a-vis the English is one of the worst of its kind in the world. Tho the Kiwis are similar towards the Aussies. PLEASE CARE MORE ABOUT US, YOU BASTARDS
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,563

    A Hunt vs Starmer election would be a borefest

    True. It might help the LDs.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    If Putin attacks Sweden I think Britain should launch a unilateral attack on the Bahamas AND Mongolia, just for the lolz. Also, we would win, as everyone else would be distracted

    Well Boris needs a Falklands moment
    Knowing Boris he’d be snorting coke and shagging his new mistress as British troops were being slaughtered on the streets of Ulaanbaatar.

    One rule for plebs, another for Boris.
    They wouldn't be slaughtered there. He'd send them to the wrong place and they'd be slaughtered in Addis Ababa instead.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,591
    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

    Sweden ?
    Or what’s left of it should they really be serious.

    More likely a bloody nose.
    Most likely it’s just Putin dicking around for the lolz.
    It makes sense that Putin would try a few distractions ahead of whatever he has planned.

    He’s such an attention seeking nob. Ukraine still seems most likely. Would be good - and highly unlikely - if the West were to do something unexpected and a bit left field in return. We are too predictable: sanctions on a few oligarchs, kick them out of one or two international organisations. Funding a deadly Ukrainian guerrilla insurgency would of course be effective but morally dubious. But a bit of creativity is certainly called for.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,137
    edited January 2022
    Deleted. All messed up
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078

    My controversial NHS opinion is that we should get rid of GP surgeries and instead expand the 111 service, as they're crap anyway.

    Why have "care navigators" of varying degrees of incompetence dotted around the country instead of big call centres in regional hubs, where standards can be monitored.

    GPS vary widely. Ours is too small for the size of the population it serves, but they try hard. GPs cover a multitude of functions, and are generally the first port of call, hence primary care. They need to have the ability to sort those who need reassurance and/or minor treatment from those who need passing on for more attention in secondary care. That’s easier where gps know the patients and their history. As a case in point my leukaemia diagnosis was expidited because when I presented with the vague symptoms I did, it was out of the ordinary, so the go was concerned. Much more so than for a ‘frequent flyer’ worried well who is in every two weeks.
    I think we need both. I personally think there is mileage for walk in gp surgeries, in parallel with minor injury units. But keep the practices where they know you and your medical history.
    I also think that pharmacists will be doing a lot more soon, such as prescriptions for antibiotics etc (think triaging chest infections vs cough/cold).
    Healthcare is complex, and needs complex solutions. What works for a man in his twenties may not for a woman in her eighties.

    In my recent infection scare I called my GP and was, in effect, told to fuck off and call back tomorrow when the "emergency appointments" are "released".

    I called 111 and they were actually interested in my symptoms and organised me an appointment at a local walk in centre within 4 hours.

    The latter is the future.
    I hope you have complained. As I say GPS vary widely.
    Of course I didn't complain - it would achieve nothing.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,171

    My controversial NHS opinion is that we should get rid of GP surgeries and instead expand the 111 service, as they're crap anyway.

    Why have "care navigators" of varying degrees of incompetence dotted around the country instead of big call centres in regional hubs, where standards can be monitored.

    GPS vary widely. Ours is too small for the size of the population it serves, but they try hard. GPs cover a multitude of functions, and are generally the first port of call, hence primary care. They need to have the ability to sort those who need reassurance and/or minor treatment from those who need passing on for more attention in secondary care. That’s easier where gps know the patients and their history. As a case in point my leukaemia diagnosis was expidited because when I presented with the vague symptoms I did, it was out of the ordinary, so the go was concerned. Much more so than for a ‘frequent flyer’ worried well who is in every two weeks.
    I think we need both. I personally think there is mileage for walk in gp surgeries, in parallel with minor injury units. But keep the practices where they know you and your medical history.
    I also think that pharmacists will be doing a lot more soon, such as prescriptions for antibiotics etc (think triaging chest infections vs cough/cold).
    Healthcare is complex, and needs complex solutions. What works for a man in his twenties may not for a woman in her eighties.

    In my recent infection scare I called my GP and was, in effect, told to fuck off and call back tomorrow when the "emergency appointments" are "released".

    I called 111 and they were actually interested in my symptoms and organised me an appointment at a local walk in centre within 4 hours.

    The latter is the future.
    BTW I trust everything was ok?
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,517
    edited January 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    A Hunt vs Starmer election would be a borefest

    True. It might help the LDs.
    I'm not sure that a three way dialogue bringing Mr Davey into the mix will empty the pubs and nightclubs. But wouldn't an election between reasonably intelligent moderate centrist bores any one of whom would be committed to not trashing the country they love be a refreshing change.

  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,893
    Sweden is one of the few countries I'd be happy for us to help defend.
  • Options
    MrEd said:

    pigeon said:

    It seems like only yesterday that most commentators, here and elsewhere, regarded a Labour majority government as impossible, and a Labour-led minority government implausible.

    How quickly times change - it's amazing what a few parties can do.

    It's far too early to make pronouncements on this subject, although Johnson is now so deeply in the mire and such an object of contempt that almost everyone agrees that a Tory defeat is more likely if he remains in office.

    There are a few things that we can say, however. For example, that yet another Conservative-led Government post the next GE would be an historic achievement, but that a swing massive enough to generate a Labour majority would also be of historic proportions (more extreme than 1997, I believe.)

    Factoring in both this and the massively strong position of the SNP, you would have to count a Labour minority (as opposed to a coalition, which is in the interest of neither Labour nor the SNP,) as the most likely outcome following the next election. However, should the Conservatives remove Johnson and install a replacement who transpires to be effective, then the path to another win is still open to them. They would have to suffer significant losses to erase their entire majority, the lost Labour voters in the North and Midlands aren't just going to troop back en masse, the electorate isn't yet sold on either Starmer or his party, and any new Prime Minister will likely stick it out until 2024 and hope that inflationary pressures subside and economic conditions improve in their favour (along with receiving some modest assistance from the boundary changes.)

    In short, it's fun pointing at all these dire polls for the Tories and speculating on what they might mean, but an election may be (and quite possibly will be) over two years away, and there's an awful lot that can happen between then and now. Starting with some resolution to the Johnson saga.
    You can see it in Labour’s general attitude (and on here from SKS’ fans) that their view is that BJ led ‘their’ voters astray and once the pied piper is gone, they will all come flocking back to their natural home. That is naive.
    And rejoin the EU
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,171

    My controversial NHS opinion is that we should get rid of GP surgeries and instead expand the 111 service, as they're crap anyway.

    Why have "care navigators" of varying degrees of incompetence dotted around the country instead of big call centres in regional hubs, where standards can be monitored.

    GPS vary widely. Ours is too small for the size of the population it serves, but they try hard. GPs cover a multitude of functions, and are generally the first port of call, hence primary care. They need to have the ability to sort those who need reassurance and/or minor treatment from those who need passing on for more attention in secondary care. That’s easier where gps know the patients and their history. As a case in point my leukaemia diagnosis was expidited because when I presented with the vague symptoms I did, it was out of the ordinary, so the go was concerned. Much more so than for a ‘frequent flyer’ worried well who is in every two weeks.
    I think we need both. I personally think there is mileage for walk in gp surgeries, in parallel with minor injury units. But keep the practices where they know you and your medical history.
    I also think that pharmacists will be doing a lot more soon, such as prescriptions for antibiotics etc (think triaging chest infections vs cough/cold).
    Healthcare is complex, and needs complex solutions. What works for a man in his twenties may not for a woman in her eighties.

    In my recent infection scare I called my GP and was, in effect, told to fuck off and call back tomorrow when the "emergency appointments" are "released".

    I called 111 and they were actually interested in my symptoms and organised me an appointment at a local walk in centre within 4 hours.

    The latter is the future.
    I hope you have complained. As I say GPS vary widely.
    Of course I didn't complain - it would achieve nothing.
    Please consider writing to the practice manager, and copy the local press.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    MrEd said:

    pigeon said:

    It seems like only yesterday that most commentators, here and elsewhere, regarded a Labour majority government as impossible, and a Labour-led minority government implausible.

    How quickly times change - it's amazing what a few parties can do.

    It's far too early to make pronouncements on this subject, although Johnson is now so deeply in the mire and such an object of contempt that almost everyone agrees that a Tory defeat is more likely if he remains in office.

    There are a few things that we can say, however. For example, that yet another Conservative-led Government post the next GE would be an historic achievement, but that a swing massive enough to generate a Labour majority would also be of historic proportions (more extreme than 1997, I believe.)

    Factoring in both this and the massively strong position of the SNP, you would have to count a Labour minority (as opposed to a coalition, which is in the interest of neither Labour nor the SNP,) as the most likely outcome following the next election. However, should the Conservatives remove Johnson and install a replacement who transpires to be effective, then the path to another win is still open to them. They would have to suffer significant losses to erase their entire majority, the lost Labour voters in the North and Midlands aren't just going to troop back en masse, the electorate isn't yet sold on either Starmer or his party, and any new Prime Minister will likely stick it out until 2024 and hope that inflationary pressures subside and economic conditions improve in their favour (along with receiving some modest assistance from the boundary changes.)

    In short, it's fun pointing at all these dire polls for the Tories and speculating on what they might mean, but an election may be (and quite possibly will be) over two years away, and there's an awful lot that can happen between then and now. Starting with some resolution to the Johnson saga.
    You can see it in Labour’s general attitude (and on here from SKS’ fans) that their view is that BJ led ‘their’ voters astray and once the pied piper is gone, they will all come flocking back to their natural home. That is naive.
    And rejoin the EU
    Who, precisely, has predicted or recommended that?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Andy_JS said:

    A Hunt vs Starmer election would be a borefest

    True. It might help the LDs.
    More likely RefUK, either could lead the LDs, Hunt a centrist Tory and Starmer centrist Labour and both were Remainers
  • Options
    Eabhal said:

    Sweden is one of the few countries I'd be happy for us to help defend.

    Absolutely, they gave us ABBA, we should totally defend Sweden, and if needs be, use nuclear weapons on Russia to protect Sweden.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    edited January 2022
    I don’t like this poll. It just doesn’t seem right to me.

    I expected it to be quite a similar margin gap reported between main parties from opinium, I thought maybe 9, because there’s two traits I’ve noted about this pollster polls in Observer, period when everyone else showed bigger Tory leads over Labour, this polling didn’t, but also didn’t change as markedly between each poll, as others do, certainly you gov do leap about. Obviously it’s all there for you to analyse for your own conclusions. But recent polls show Tory drop, after an uptick for Tories in holiday time polls.

    We saw from the by elections before Christmas libdems can attract Tory votes Labour just can’t. So with Tories declining, why only labour increasing and libdems jumping backwards in this polling?

    This poll has Labour increasing whilst the libdems drop into single figures - and I am just calling that plain wrong and an outlier in the current climate. To be fair all company’s can suffer a rouge poll now again, not really their fault? and fair enough time will prove me right or wrong if they report differently next time, time after, and the figures from this one don’t sit right in middle of sequence. But whilst voters are deserting scandal hit Tories this poll has labour gaining and the libdems going back into single figures - I’ll bake a tofu hat cake and eat it if that is accurate. More likely its 2 off Tory’s and 1 off Labour on the Lib Dems right now, for 40, 29, 12.

    ☹️
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,591
    Eabhal said:

    Sweden is one of the few countries I'd be happy for us to help defend.

    Like Belgium 1914.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,192
    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak has 45% thinking he would make a good PM.

    However Javid, Hunt, Gove, Truss and Patel all have 30% or less thinking they would make a good PM. All below the 31% Tory voteshare with Boris tonight.

    Therefore only replacing Boris with Sunak likely to see any bounce for the Tories at all

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1482444647351865353?s=20

    That being the case, why hasn't Sunak quietly asked his supporters to write letters to Graham Brady?

    Does he not have enough supporters in the Parliamentary Party who would like to see him become PM? Is he worried about losing the leadership contest?
    Neither Sunak nor Truss nor Hunt have many MPs pushing their case, which probably gives an idea of their supporter base.
    That's the obvious explanation. Which would suggest that the next leadership contest is a lot less predictable than often imagined.

    It would also help to explain why Johnson is still there. No-one really knows who will come next, and whether it will be better or worse, and so they will have to get really desperate to step into the unknown and/or a consensus on a replacement would have to be formed.
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    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Boris now needs to go off into exile somewhere obscure for a couple of years, re-emerging a chastened and humble man, full of regrets but ready with a few wise words for those who follow (Of course he won’t but it’s a nice thought).

    Actually, hypothetical question time:

    You are a famous intellectual who has fallen out of favour with the ruling family in the small autocracy that you call home, and must now flee the country.

    You hole up in a small, once fashionable resort town where you spend a decade or more, making of it a kind of home but without ever losing a deep, aching yearning for your homeland. You can be regularly spotted sipping a coffee at the cafe on the corner, or taking in the sunset at a nearby viewpoint.

    Which resort town do you choose?

    Got to be Italian-speaking Switzerland or one of the old Czech spa towns. Marienbad

    Or Hyeres
    I’m narrowing it down to somewhere depressing near the North Sea, like Schevening or Ostend.
    Sure for such an eminent classicist as Boris Johnson, a truly appropriate isle of exile would be Gyaros?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyaros
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    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Russian submarines very active in Baltic.

    Where are you finding out about such activity?
    No 1 story in Swedish news.

    Troops being sent to Gotland and tanks in the harbour town and capital Visby.
    The Russians along the Ukranian border may well be most effective as a distraction of course.

    Does Sweden have any defensive understandings with any of the Baltic states?
    What would the Russians have to gain by attacking Sweden ?

    It would up the stakes of their probing of non Nato territory which is disconcerting the west bigly. At some point (Murphy's principle) the EU is going to discover that agreement on My Little Pony sticker protocols fails to make up for having a state like entity with differing defence alliances and policies, no army and no defence policy which has absentmindedly alienated their nuclear friend called the UK by sheer stupidity.

    Finland is the obvious next step. Then Sweden. Then Ireland.

    A few years ago it would be unthinkable that Russia would annexe part of the Ukraine without a murmur. What I have said in the above paragraph is also unthinkable.

    Both Finland and Sweden have been actively discussing NATO membership. Hence the threatening Russian activity I suspect.

    Another Euro referendum seems to be rising up the agenda in Sweden too (Finland already in Euro).

    A lot depends on the Sweden Democrats (anti-immigrant UKIP types). If they are needed for C&S after next GE their attitude to nato crucial. They totally u-turned on NATO membership in 2020 and are now for it.
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    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    I don’t like this poll. It just doesn’t seem right to me.

    I expected it to be quite a similar margin gap reported between main parties from opinium, I thought maybe 9, because there’s two traits I’ve noted about this pollster polls in Observer, period when everyone else showed bigger Tory leads over Labour, this polling didn’t, but also didn’t change as markedly between each poll, as others do, certainly you gov do leap about. Obviously it’s all there for you to analyse for your own conclusions. But recent polls show Tory drop, after an uptick for Tories in holiday time polls.

    We saw from the by elections before Christmas libdems can attract Tory votes Labour just can’t. So with Tories declining, why only labour increasing and libdems jumping backwards in this polling?

    This poll has Labour increasing whilst the libdems drop into single figures - and I am just calling that plain wrong and an outlier in the current climate. To be fair all company’s can suffer a rouge poll now again, not really their fault? and fair enough time will prove me right or wrong if they report differently next time, time after, and the figures from this one don’t sit right in middle of sequence. But whilst voters are deserting scandal hit Tories this poll has labour gaining and the libdems going back into single figures - I’ll bake a tofu hat cake and eat it if that is accurate. More likely its 2 off Tory’s and 1 off Labour on the Lib Dems right now, for 40, 29, 12.

    ☹️

    Are you sure you red it right?
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    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    If Putin attacks Sweden I think Britain should launch a unilateral attack on the Bahamas AND Mongolia, just for the lolz. Also, we would win, as everyone else would be distracted

    Well Boris needs a Falklands moment
    No - he needs to resign now
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,137
    edited January 2022

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    Russians have a bit of a thing about Sweden. We annoy them.

    Anyone annoy the English?
    You tell us. You claim to be the expert about the English character on this board. Do tell. We’re anxious to hear more of your valued, and of course dispassionate, analysis of our psyche.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,053
    Eabhal said:

    Sweden is one of the few countries I'd be happy for us to help defend.

    Why? Fuck Sweden.

    In the spirit of AUKUS we should only defend English-speaking nations. Tho I guess that, awkwardly, includes Sweden

  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,847
    Evening all :)

    May I be the 221st person to welcome the imminent arrival of the new Government under N.O.These. I'm sure the These administration will be a by-word for competence, probity, honesty and will take the country in the change of direction it so badly needs.

    I suspect some Conservatives will come round to backing These - the kind of Prime Minister we need in such difficult times, the kind of person to take the big decisions and act in the national interest.

    The Opinium swing from Conservative to Labour is a solid 11% - same as ComRes.

    Another centre-right Government elected in 2019 in trouble is in Austria and a fascinating new Unique Research poll out this evening (changes from the last election):

    People's Party: 25% (-12)
    Social Democrats: 25% (+4)
    Freedom Party: 20% (+4)
    Greens: 11% (-3)
    New Austria & Liberal Forum (NEOS): 11% (+3)
    People, Freedom, Fundamental Rights (MFG): 6% (+6)

    The People's Party has slumped since the resignation of Kurz from the Chancellor's job though he remains party leader. The Freedom Party has recovered somewhat since the fall of Hofer and Kickl (leader since last June) has done well to capitalise on the problems facing the People's Party.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    If Putin attacks Sweden I think Britain should launch a unilateral attack on the Bahamas AND Mongolia, just for the lolz. Also, we would win, as everyone else would be distracted

    Well Boris needs a Falklands moment
    No - he needs to resign now
    Works for me. Galtieri had to resign over the Falklands.
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    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sweden is one of the few countries I'd be happy for us to help defend.

    Why? Fuck Sweden.

    In the spirit of AUKUS we should only defend English-speaking nations. Tho I guess that, awkwardly, includes Sweden

    They gave us ABBA, it is an honour thing, we have to defend them.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2022
    Is anyone else stalking @PippaCrerar‘s Twitter feed tonight?

    https://twitter.com/AnnaYearley/status/1482438356017500162?s=20

    I wouldn’t! I’m off this weekend and watching the Masked Singer with the kids Smiling face with 3 hearts

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1482439379930992647?s=20

    Was fridge-gate the big scandal of the weekend?
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    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    Russians have a bit of a thing about Sweden. We annoy them.

    Anyone annoy the English?
    You tell us. You claim to be the experts about the English character on this board. Do tell. We’re anxious to hear more of your valued, and of course dispassionate, analysis of our psyche.
    I'll do it:
    The English love both cricket and incest porn.
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    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak has 45% thinking he would make a good PM.

    However Javid, Hunt, Gove, Truss and Patel all have 30% or less thinking they would make a good PM. All below the 31% Tory voteshare with Boris tonight.

    Therefore only replacing Boris with Sunak likely to see any bounce for the Tories at all

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1482444647351865353?s=20

    That being the case, why hasn't Sunak quietly asked his supporters to write letters to Graham Brady?

    Does he not have enough supporters in the Parliamentary Party who would like to see him become PM? Is he worried about losing the leadership contest?
    Neither Sunak nor Truss nor Hunt have many MPs pushing their case, which probably gives an idea of their supporter base.
    That's the obvious explanation. Which would suggest that the next leadership contest is a lot less predictable than often imagined.

    It would also help to explain why Johnson is still there. No-one really knows who will come next, and whether it will be better or worse, and so they will have to get really desperate to step into the unknown and/or a consensus on a replacement would have to be formed.
    “ next leadership contest is a lot less predictable than often imagined”

    How realistic is Tobias Elwood as a candidate?
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    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell. When I said Putin was thinking of himself as a new Peter the Great, I didn't think that might involve war with Sweden. That would be being rather too literal.
    Russians have a bit of a thing about Sweden. We annoy them.

    Anyone annoy the English?
    Nobody, everybody loves us, it is why English is the lingua franca of the world.
    I asked if anyone annoys the English, not if you lot annoy other peoples.
    The French irritate, the Americans can chafe, the Germans sometimes exasperate. We don't give a fuck about the Scots. Sorry
    I do, and I do not judge @StuartDickson as a typical Scot with the hatred for all things English
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sweden is one of the few countries I'd be happy for us to help defend.

    Why? Fuck Sweden.

    In the spirit of AUKUS we should only defend English-speaking nations. Tho I guess that, awkwardly, includes Sweden

    They gave us ABBA, it is an honour thing, we have to defend them.
    If you change your mind...
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    TimS said:

    Boris now needs to go off into exile somewhere obscure for a couple of years, re-emerging a chastened and humble man, full of regrets but ready with a few wise words for those who follow (Of course he won’t but it’s a nice thought).

    Actually, hypothetical question time:

    You are a famous intellectual who has fallen out of favour with the ruling family in the small autocracy that you call home, and must now flee the country.

    You hole up in a small, once fashionable resort town where you spend a decade or more, making of it a kind of home but without ever losing a deep, aching yearning for your homeland. You can be regularly spotted sipping a coffee at the cafe on the corner, or taking in the sunset at a nearby viewpoint.

    Which resort town do you choose?

    Hvar in Croatia.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Eabhal said:

    Sweden is one of the few countries I'd be happy for us to help defend.

    Sweden is one of only a couple of countries En/GB/UK has never been at war with.

    (Well, if you ignore that the Sutton Hoo invasion ship was from what is now Sweden; plus a little administrative hiccup during the Napoleonic wars.)
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak has 45% thinking he would make a good PM.

    However Javid, Hunt, Gove, Truss and Patel all have 30% or less thinking they would make a good PM. All below the 31% Tory voteshare with Boris tonight.

    Therefore only replacing Boris with Sunak likely to see any bounce for the Tories at all

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1482444647351865353?s=20

    That being the case, why hasn't Sunak quietly asked his supporters to write letters to Graham Brady?

    Does he not have enough supporters in the Parliamentary Party who would like to see him become PM? Is he worried about losing the leadership contest?
    Neither Sunak nor Truss nor Hunt have many MPs pushing their case, which probably gives an idea of their supporter base.
    That's the obvious explanation. Which would suggest that the next leadership contest is a lot less predictable than often imagined.

    It would also help to explain why Johnson is still there. No-one really knows who will come next, and whether it will be better or worse, and so they will have to get really desperate to step into the unknown and/or a consensus on a replacement would have to be formed.
    “ next leadership contest is a lot less predictable than often imagined”

    How realistic is Tobias Elwood as a candidate?
    Well, they elected a mad backbencher with a silly voice and no brain last time. As did Labour in 2015. So we shouldn't rule anything out.
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    kjhkjh Posts: 10,620

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sweden is one of the few countries I'd be happy for us to help defend.

    Why? Fuck Sweden.

    In the spirit of AUKUS we should only defend English-speaking nations. Tho I guess that, awkwardly, includes Sweden

    They gave us ABBA, it is an honour thing, we have to defend them.
    Some might claim it's a good reason to declare war on them.
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    Perhaps Boris needs to copy canoe man and go to Panama :-)
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    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    If Putin attacks Sweden I think Britain should launch a unilateral attack on the Bahamas AND Mongolia, just for the lolz. Also, we would win, as everyone else would be distracted

    Well Boris needs a Falklands moment
    So "Wag the Dog" was/is official Tory policy, in 1980 and 2022?
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    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    pigeon said:

    It seems like only yesterday that most commentators, here and elsewhere, regarded a Labour majority government as impossible, and a Labour-led minority government implausible.

    How quickly times change - it's amazing what a few parties can do.

    It's far too early to make pronouncements on this subject, although Johnson is now so deeply in the mire and such an object of contempt that almost everyone agrees that a Tory defeat is more likely if he remains in office.

    There are a few things that we can say, however. For example, that yet another Conservative-led Government post the next GE would be an historic achievement, but that a swing massive enough to generate a Labour majority would also be of historic proportions (more extreme than 1997, I believe.)

    Factoring in both this and the massively strong position of the SNP, you would have to count a Labour minority (as opposed to a coalition, which is in the interest of neither Labour nor the SNP,) as the most likely outcome following the next election. However, should the Conservatives remove Johnson and install a replacement who transpires to be effective, then the path to another win is still open to them. They would have to suffer significant losses to erase their entire majority, the lost Labour voters in the North and Midlands aren't just going to troop back en masse, the electorate isn't yet sold on either Starmer or his party, and any new Prime Minister will likely stick it out until 2024 and hope that inflationary pressures subside and economic conditions improve in their favour (along with receiving some modest assistance from the boundary changes.)

    In short, it's fun pointing at all these dire polls for the Tories and speculating on what they might mean, but an election may be (and quite possibly will be) over two years away, and there's an awful lot that can happen between then and now. Starting with some resolution to the Johnson saga.
    You can see it in Labour’s general attitude (and on here from SKS’ fans) that their view is that BJ led ‘their’ voters astray and once the pied piper is gone, they will all come flocking back to their natural home. That is naive.
    And rejoin the EU
    Who, precisely, has predicted or recommended that?
    Many including on here
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sweden is one of the few countries I'd be happy for us to help defend.

    Why? Fuck Sweden.

    In the spirit of AUKUS we should only defend English-speaking nations. Tho I guess that, awkwardly, includes Sweden

    Technically as well as defending Australia and the USA, we are obliged to defend France too as it is also in NATO with us unlike Sweden
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Eabhal said:

    Sweden is one of the few countries I'd be happy for us to help defend.

    Sweden is one of only a couple of countries En/GB/UK has never been at war with.

    (Well, if you ignore that the Sutton Hoo invasion ship was from what is now Sweden; plus a little administrative hiccup during the Napoleonic wars.)
    I don't think the the Sutton Hoo find was an invasion ship. It was a ship burial.
This discussion has been closed.