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Seasonal factors and the timing of general elections – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,210
    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    I'd agree. IMV rationality and irrationality are not binary, but a spectrum that varies in an individual over time. Spock was a caricature of 'perfect' rationality, and his alienness / otherworldliness shows that perfect rationality is an alien concept to us.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,498
    Farooq said:

    You're back!

    Just passing... :)
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,154
    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,719
    Scott_xP said:

    Oh, shit...

    Boris Johnson, speaking to me at a vaccine centre in London, says “there’s absolutely nothing to indicate” that another winter lockdown is on the cards.

    More on @skynews now


    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1451542505615470593

    Not least because no one will obey it. :)
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,232
    Dura_Ace said:

    I agree with @HYUFD on this, actually.

    Reeves looks like a leader. She has gravitas and the right credentials. She also has a northern seat, albeit she herself is a Londoner.

    Labour could do a lot worse.

    Her voice sounds like a Dyson sucking up gravel. It shouldn’t matter but it does.
    Starmer with tits as I saw one Corbynite describe her on twitter.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,859
    edited October 22
    5.3m third doses given, about 17% of 32m eligible people by the end of November and about 47% of the 11.3m currently eligible. The number looks big at first glance but it's actually pretty rubbish.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,244
    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    Legal, Yes, I do think it should be. I know that will sound harsh, but ultimately I support people freedom to do things I find bad or even despicable.

    I should add, that as a friend, I would hope you might try to persewad him not to, or direct him to other help, but ultimately I don't think that you should spend years in a prison cell for helping somebody do something they wanted to do.
    People who are depressed and suicidal are not in their right mind. It should never be legal to help them die.

    My worry is that, if you don't have strong safeguards, it will be something used by murderers to escape conviction, as "rough sex" has been used many times as a defence where a woman has been strangled to death.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 849

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    I'd agree. IMV rationality and irrationality are not binary, but a spectrum that varies in an individual over time. Spock was a caricature of 'perfect' rationality, and his alienness / otherworldliness shows that perfect rationality is an alien concept to us.
    Sci-fi metahphors are great
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,062
    edited October 22
    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.

    Your pontificating reminds me of Jaques Liverot from The Day Today:

    http://circlingsquares.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-british-view-of-french-philosophers.html

    "An optimist sees half a pint of milk. He says 'It is half full'. A pessimist sees half a pint of milk. He says "It is half empty". I see half a pint of milk, I say 'It is sour'."
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 849

    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
    I like your point - however anyone who's watched BBC Parliament lately knows that, for some reason; it has become a left/right issue.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,460
    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    Your pontificating reminds me of Jaques Liverot from The Day Today:

    http://circlingsquares.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-british-view-of-french-philosophers.html
    Ha ok. Yes, perhaps I am straying into that territory. Undergrad dorm after a few beers. Those were the days. But anyway, enough.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,197
    BigRich said:

    BigRich said:

    BigRich said:

    @HugoGye
    255,406 covid booster jabs recorded in England yesterday - up from c.214k a week ago.

    I wish they would put the booster/third jabs on the main COVID dashboard,

    Amongst other things it might give a sense of movement - improvement.
    The dashboard team are working on it - the biggest issue they have with new data is getting agreement from the various supplying groups how they will supply the data.

    They still haven't got a lot of the age breakdown stuff from Scotland, for example.
    Thanks, that's good to know :)

    Also good to know about the number of boosters that you posted, I had thought we where behind the rest of the EU, but at 250,000 or so a day, perhaps we have caught up or at least close to catching up.

    If the key point is the 6 months, then presumably we have a lot of scope to catch up and overtake as we got so many jabs in early?
    Just thought I would have a look on Our would in data, to answer my own speculation, about booster jabs.

    The UK number is not listed, but EU nations are, if we have done given 4 million doses, then that about 6% of population and would imply that we are below Hungary and about equal with Malta, but ahead of every other EU nation.
    Our World In Data Largely get their stuff for the UK from the dashboard feed, IIRC.

    So that won't show up until the dashboard is updated to show boosters. Which will be sometime next week, probably
  • GreenHeronGreenHeron Posts: 128
    Fabulous thread Fishing.

    Given that oppositions have won only 3 of the last 11 elections, yet the average polling position during this same period is for a 2-3 point opposition lead - it does make me wonder how some people, including many thread writers here, managed to square this with their constant exhortations that a mid term government with a 5 point lead is somehow in trouble.

    Also, while I do not always, or even often, agree with HYUFD's pronouncements, it does seem that many commenters on here have a genuine belief that HYUFD is uniquely biased whereas they are the veritable fount of impartiality. I do find these commenters' self-awareness, fascinating.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,914
    JBriskin3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    I'd agree. IMV rationality and irrationality are not binary, but a spectrum that varies in an individual over time. Spock was a caricature of 'perfect' rationality, and his alienness / otherworldliness shows that perfect rationality is an alien concept to us.
    Sci-fi metahphors are great
    Johnson = Fwi Song
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,770
    JBriskin3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    I'd agree. IMV rationality and irrationality are not binary, but a spectrum that varies in an individual over time. Spock was a caricature of 'perfect' rationality, and his alienness / otherworldliness shows that perfect rationality is an alien concept to us.
    Sci-fi metahphors are great
    It is a pleasing fact of life that "metaphor" is a metaphor. In Greece you will see lorries with metaphorai written on them, meaning house moves.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 849
    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    I'd agree. IMV rationality and irrationality are not binary, but a spectrum that varies in an individual over time. Spock was a caricature of 'perfect' rationality, and his alienness / otherworldliness shows that perfect rationality is an alien concept to us.
    Sci-fi metahphors are great
    Johnson = Fwi Song
    I don't get that reference. I'm terrible at remembering charachter names from fiction.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,319
    Given Carlotta seems to have abandoned posting the ONS infection survey numbers these last 2 week

    England 1-in-55
    Wales 1-in-45
    NI 1-in-130
    Scotland 1-in-90
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 2,420
    Don't know if its been commented on here but 134 cases in NZ today tiny member compared to anywhere else but still rising about 40% a week.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,481
    Latest net favourability ratings for top UK politicians:

    Rishi Sunak: +3
    Lizz Truss: -18
    Sajid Javid: -19
    Keir Starmer: -27
    Boris Johnson: -30
    Priti Patel: -44
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1451535250014851073?s=20
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,914
    JBriskin3 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    I'd agree. IMV rationality and irrationality are not binary, but a spectrum that varies in an individual over time. Spock was a caricature of 'perfect' rationality, and his alienness / otherworldliness shows that perfect rationality is an alien concept to us.
    Sci-fi metahphors are great
    Johnson = Fwi Song
    I don't get that reference. I'm terrible at remembering charachter names from fiction.
    He is an obese cult leader on a desolate island of cannibals in Consider Phlebas. Horza poisons him with flesh from his fingers.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,062
    Re header, won't the timing of the boundary changes affect the decision?

    As I right in thinking that May 2023 less likely and Dec 23 or May 24 more likely?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,154
    JBriskin3 said:

    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
    I like your point - however anyone who's watched BBC Parliament lately knows that, for some reason; it has become a left/right issue.
    Which would explain why almost zero attendees at the Labour conference in Brighton wore masks, and why the clubs in said city were packed full of Labourites partying and dancing until the early hours every night of the conference.

    As I say, judge people by what they do, not by what they say.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 849
    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    I'd agree. IMV rationality and irrationality are not binary, but a spectrum that varies in an individual over time. Spock was a caricature of 'perfect' rationality, and his alienness / otherworldliness shows that perfect rationality is an alien concept to us.
    Sci-fi metahphors are great
    Johnson = Fwi Song
    I don't get that reference. I'm terrible at remembering charachter names from fiction.
    He is an obese cult leader on a desolate island of cannibals in Consider Phlebas. Horza poisons him with flesh from his fingers.
    I thought it was a character ref from a book I might have read - and I have indeed read that one. My first introduction to The Culture.
  • pingping Posts: 1,415
    HYUFD said:

    Latest net favourability ratings for top UK politicians:

    Rishi Sunak: +3
    Lizz Truss: -18
    Sajid Javid: -19
    Keir Starmer: -27
    Boris Johnson: -30
    Priti Patel: -44
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1451535250014851073?s=20

    We’ll see what happens to Sunak’s ratings next week after the budget. I think he’ll take a hit.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,062
    HYUFD said:

    Latest net favourability ratings for top UK politicians:

    Rishi Sunak: +3
    Lizz Truss: -18
    Sajid Javid: -19
    Keir Starmer: -27
    Boris Johnson: -30
    Priti Patel: -44
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1451535250014851073?s=20

    Look at the number of DKs for Truss.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,460

    Dura_Ace said:

    I agree with @HYUFD on this, actually.

    Reeves looks like a leader. She has gravitas and the right credentials. She also has a northern seat, albeit she herself is a Londoner.

    Labour could do a lot worse.

    Her voice sounds like a Dyson sucking up gravel. It shouldn’t matter but it does.
    Starmer with tits as I saw one Corbynite describe her on twitter.
    Kindler gentler politics on display once again from our friends on the left.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,770
    JBriskin3 said:

    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
    I like your point - however anyone who's watched BBC Parliament lately knows that, for some reason; it has become a left/right issue.
    So it is a l/r issue after all is what you are saying?

    These things ain't rational, but that's not the same as saying they aren't real.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,210
    JBriskin3 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    I'd agree. IMV rationality and irrationality are not binary, but a spectrum that varies in an individual over time. Spock was a caricature of 'perfect' rationality, and his alienness / otherworldliness shows that perfect rationality is an alien concept to us.
    Sci-fi metahphors are great
    Johnson = Fwi Song
    I don't get that reference. I'm terrible at remembering charachter names from fiction.
    It isn't going to be complementary, is it? PB Rule #45234: Dura_Ace is *never* complimentary about anybody... ;)

    (The character is from one of the Culture books by Iain M Banks. ?Use of Weapons? Dies in a suitably nasty manner.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,154
    Great to see that the usual suspects on PB have smeared Rachel Reeves because they don't like her voice and that she is in possession of a pair of breasts. Important things like that which don't cast the posters in a bad light in any way, oh no no siree.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,770
    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    I'd agree. IMV rationality and irrationality are not binary, but a spectrum that varies in an individual over time. Spock was a caricature of 'perfect' rationality, and his alienness / otherworldliness shows that perfect rationality is an alien concept to us.
    Sci-fi metahphors are great
    Johnson = Fwi Song
    LOL, but it pisses me off that FS addresses his followers as salt begotten or something, when we know that the vavatch seas are sweet water. Always meant to write a stiff letter to Banks about that. Fucking procrastination.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 849
    IshmaelZ said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
    I like your point - however anyone who's watched BBC Parliament lately knows that, for some reason; it has become a left/right issue.
    So it is a l/r issue after all is what you are saying?

    These things ain't rational, but that's not the same as saying they aren't real.
    Not sure what point your trying to make. I agree with AnaB but it shouldn't be a L/R issue. I was just providing evidence that, unfortunatly, it already is one.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,154
    IshmaelZ said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
    I like your point - however anyone who's watched BBC Parliament lately knows that, for some reason; it has become a left/right issue.
    So it is a l/r issue after all is what you are saying?

    These things ain't rational, but that's not the same as saying they aren't real.
    It isn't. You just want too make so. But because you want to make it so, doesn't mean it is. Sorry.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,154
    JBriskin3 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
    I like your point - however anyone who's watched BBC Parliament lately knows that, for some reason; it has become a left/right issue.
    So it is a l/r issue after all is what you are saying?

    These things ain't rational, but that's not the same as saying they aren't real.
    Not sure what point your trying to make. I agree with AnaB but it shouldn't be a L/R issue. I was just providing evidence that, unfortunatly, it already is one.
    It isn't.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 849

    JBriskin3 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
    I like your point - however anyone who's watched BBC Parliament lately knows that, for some reason; it has become a left/right issue.
    So it is a l/r issue after all is what you are saying?

    These things ain't rational, but that's not the same as saying they aren't real.
    Not sure what point your trying to make. I agree with AnaB but it shouldn't be a L/R issue. I was just providing evidence that, unfortunatly, it already is one.
    It isn't.
    Then why do the Tories not wear masks and Lab and SNP Types do whenever I switch on BBC Parliament?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,770
    JBriskin3 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
    I like your point - however anyone who's watched BBC Parliament lately knows that, for some reason; it has become a left/right issue.
    So it is a l/r issue after all is what you are saying?

    These things ain't rational, but that's not the same as saying they aren't real.
    Not sure what point your trying to make. I agree with AnaB but it shouldn't be a L/R issue. I was just providing evidence that, unfortunatly, it already is one.
    My point was, it doesn't make sense to say, it is not X but it has become X. If it has become X, it is (now) X
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,725
    Had my 3rd Pfizer jab yesterday. No real adverse side effects, although my arm is way sorer and more swollen than the previous two shots.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,770

    IshmaelZ said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
    I like your point - however anyone who's watched BBC Parliament lately knows that, for some reason; it has become a left/right issue.
    So it is a l/r issue after all is what you are saying?

    These things ain't rational, but that's not the same as saying they aren't real.
    It isn't. You just want too make so. But because you want to make it so, doesn't mean it is. Sorry.
    I don't give a flying fuck whether it is left right or centre. I'm just the guy who is telling you the way things are.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 849
    IshmaelZ said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
    I like your point - however anyone who's watched BBC Parliament lately knows that, for some reason; it has become a left/right issue.
    So it is a l/r issue after all is what you are saying?

    These things ain't rational, but that's not the same as saying they aren't real.
    Not sure what point your trying to make. I agree with AnaB but it shouldn't be a L/R issue. I was just providing evidence that, unfortunatly, it already is one.
    My point was, it doesn't make sense to say, it is not X but it has become X. If it has become X, it is (now) X
    I think I agree with you - AnaB currently the outlier in this three-way (kinky...) debate.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,914

    JBriskin3 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    I'd agree. IMV rationality and irrationality are not binary, but a spectrum that varies in an individual over time. Spock was a caricature of 'perfect' rationality, and his alienness / otherworldliness shows that perfect rationality is an alien concept to us.
    Sci-fi metahphors are great
    Johnson = Fwi Song
    I don't get that reference. I'm terrible at remembering charachter names from fiction.
    It isn't going to be complementary, is it? PB Rule #45234: Dura_Ace is *never* complimentary about anybody... ;)

    (The character is from one of the Culture books by Iain M Banks. ?Use of Weapons? Dies in a suitably nasty manner.
    I have been complimentary about Greta, Rayner and Lenin in the past on here.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,770

    JBriskin3 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
    I like your point - however anyone who's watched BBC Parliament lately knows that, for some reason; it has become a left/right issue.
    So it is a l/r issue after all is what you are saying?

    These things ain't rational, but that's not the same as saying they aren't real.
    Not sure what point your trying to make. I agree with AnaB but it shouldn't be a L/R issue. I was just providing evidence that, unfortunatly, it already is one.
    It isn't.
    Is
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,566
    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    Assisted dying really isn't something I can decide on.

    We need it, no question. Hyufd linked to a guardian piece below by an opponent who was so unimaginative that he thought people would ask for it because they couldn't take the indignity of having their arses wiped. Interesting that Field changed to pro when he saw what a terminal ward is really like.

    Greedy inheritors is an issue. Double iht on estates after assisted dying would go a long way to sorting that.
    He didn't.

    HE spent some time in a hospice which he was full of praise for. He changed his mind because of the suffering of an MP dying from Cancer.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Johnson = Fwi Song

    LOL, but it pisses me off that FS addresses his followers as salt begotten or something, when we know that the vavatch seas are sweet water. Always meant to write a stiff letter to Banks about that. Fucking procrastination.
    Iain Banks was a great guy, and very good fun to have a drink with. As you might, or might not, expect, had a much less serious outlook on life than Terry Pratchett.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 2,420
    MaxPB said:

    5.3m third doses given, about 17% of 32m eligible people by the end of November and about 47% of the 11.3m currently eligible. The number looks big at first glance but it's actually pretty rubbish.

    Big pity its not better, but if you take the base date as 12 April, (6 months plus a week, plus one day to book one day to get jabbed and one day to upload the data), then 7,588,377 are eligible, take off ish 300,000 who will have died in that time, and perhaps 10%-20% who may have chosen not to have it, and its not that far off.

    However, with 350,000 coming eligible every day, and only 250,000 ish jabs, then the backlog it only going to get larger. Hopefully the number of jabs a day will increase by another 100,000 ish.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,210
    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    I'd agree. IMV rationality and irrationality are not binary, but a spectrum that varies in an individual over time. Spock was a caricature of 'perfect' rationality, and his alienness / otherworldliness shows that perfect rationality is an alien concept to us.
    Sci-fi metahphors are great
    Johnson = Fwi Song
    I don't get that reference. I'm terrible at remembering charachter names from fiction.
    It isn't going to be complementary, is it? PB Rule #45234: Dura_Ace is *never* complimentary about anybody... ;)

    (The character is from one of the Culture books by Iain M Banks. ?Use of Weapons? Dies in a suitably nasty manner.
    I have been complimentary about Greta, Rayner and Lenin in the past on here.
    I wonder that those three have in common?

    Ah yes, praising them winds up certain posters something rotten ... ;)
  • BigRich said:

    MaxPB said:

    5.3m third doses given, about 17% of 32m eligible people by the end of November and about 47% of the 11.3m currently eligible. The number looks big at first glance but it's actually pretty rubbish.

    Big pity its not better, but if you take the base date as 12 April, (6 months plus a week, plus one day to book one day to get jabbed and one day to upload the data), then 7,588,377 are eligible, take off ish 300,000 who will have died in that time, and perhaps 10%-20% who may have chosen not to have it, and its not that far off.

    However, with 350,000 coming eligible every day, and only 250,000 ish jabs, then the backlog it only going to get larger. Hopefully the number of jabs a day will increase by another 100,000 ish.
    Just about to go for mine, my second was on the 7 March
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 2,420

    BigRich said:

    MaxPB said:

    5.3m third doses given, about 17% of 32m eligible people by the end of November and about 47% of the 11.3m currently eligible. The number looks big at first glance but it's actually pretty rubbish.

    Big pity its not better, but if you take the base date as 12 April, (6 months plus a week, plus one day to book one day to get jabbed and one day to upload the data), then 7,588,377 are eligible, take off ish 300,000 who will have died in that time, and perhaps 10%-20% who may have chosen not to have it, and its not that far off.

    However, with 350,000 coming eligible every day, and only 250,000 ish jabs, then the backlog it only going to get larger. Hopefully the number of jabs a day will increase by another 100,000 ish.
    Just about to go for mine, my second was on the 7 March
    by my calculation I will be eligible on 25 December, don't know if they will be running then then?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,210

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Johnson = Fwi Song

    LOL, but it pisses me off that FS addresses his followers as salt begotten or something, when we know that the vavatch seas are sweet water. Always meant to write a stiff letter to Banks about that. Fucking procrastination.
    Iain Banks was a great guy, and very good fun to have a drink with. As you might, or might not, expect, had a much less serious outlook on life than Terry Pratchett.
    I actually got to be on a whisky-tasting panel with Banks at a sci fi con near Heathrow.

    Mrs J loves his books, and she was rather jealous, until she got to meet him backstage.

    I hadn't read any of his books at the time, and I rather queered it for her by thanking him for his books. When he thanked me for the thanks, I added something like: "Yes, whilst she's reading them she's not annoying me. I get days of peace when you release a new book ..."

    I *think* he took it humorously ...
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,566

    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    I'd agree. IMV rationality and irrationality are not binary, but a spectrum that varies in an individual over time. Spock was a caricature of 'perfect' rationality, and his alienness / otherworldliness shows that perfect rationality is an alien concept to us.
    Sci-fi metahphors are great
    Johnson = Fwi Song
    I don't get that reference. I'm terrible at remembering charachter names from fiction.
    It isn't going to be complementary, is it? PB Rule #45234: Dura_Ace is *never* complimentary about anybody... ;)

    (The character is from one of the Culture books by Iain M Banks. ?Use of Weapons? Dies in a suitably nasty manner.
    I have been complimentary about Greta, Rayner and Lenin in the past on here.
    I wonder that those three have in common?

    Ah yes, praising them winds up certain posters something rotten ... ;)
    Well Great and Lenin both didn't give a shit about people as long as they got their way.

    Angela I like. Probably wouldn't vote for her but at least she is human.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,197

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Johnson = Fwi Song

    LOL, but it pisses me off that FS addresses his followers as salt begotten or something, when we know that the vavatch seas are sweet water. Always meant to write a stiff letter to Banks about that. Fucking procrastination.
    Iain Banks was a great guy, and very good fun to have a drink with. As you might, or might not, expect, had a much less serious outlook on life than Terry Pratchett.
    Though strangely, for a well read chap, he didn't acknowledge the uncertainty principle (future prediction is physically impossible to certain limits) and that Excession (and other incidents) showed the Culture had the same feet of clay as everyone else....

    At least that is what he said at a book signing for Excession in Oxford...
  • kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris is a joke.

    Just like Trump, Berlusconi, and that Toronto Mayor who was on the crackpipe.

    All of them surprisingly popular despite or perhaps because of their clown-act.

    None of this has much to do with Nandy herself, except that I think - apart from Nandy being smarter and more charismatic than Keir - Boris would likely struggle (even) more against a female opponent.

    I am sorry but Nandy is not smarter than Sir Keir, he may be dull as dishwasher but he does have a degree from Oxbridge unlike her and had a major job before being an MP as Head of the CPS unlike her. Nandy was just a researcher before becoming an MP.

    I don't personally dislike Nandy but she is a complete lightweight when you are talking about a potential PM. If you want a female opponent for Boris Yvette Cooper or Liz Kendall would be far better and far tougher for Boris to face than Nandy but then Labour rejected them in 2015 as it rejected Nandy in 2020, Labour does not like female leaders, that is clear. Rachel Reeves would also be a far more heavyweight threat than Nandy
    It is not often we agree but I think that is an accurate comment

    I do not rate Nandy at all but I do rate Rachel Reeves who has an impressive cv
    Unless she manages to become Labour leader, then you'd mysteriously cease to rate her. I know what you're like, Big G.
    Indeed.
    That is just not true

    I heard her interviewed by Nick Robinson and at the conference and she ticks many boxes

    If Rachel was leader I would be very interested in their policies

    Remember and as @HYUFD much disapproves I voted for Blair twice
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,725

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    I'd agree. IMV rationality and irrationality are not binary, but a spectrum that varies in an individual over time. Spock was a caricature of 'perfect' rationality, and his alienness / otherworldliness shows that perfect rationality is an alien concept to us.
    I think most of what we consider irrationality from a sound mind is just a deeper, non-conscious, and possibly an emotional-brain rationality that we are incapable of articulating and may even be unaware of.

    However, if you are using rational to mean thought processes involving the conscious pre-frontal cortex, vs thought processes using the emotional brain, then, yes, a sound mind is capable of irrational thought, thank the non-existent God.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    I agree with @HYUFD on this, actually.

    Reeves looks like a leader. She has gravitas and the right credentials. She also has a northern seat, albeit she herself is a Londoner.

    Labour could do a lot worse.

    Her voice sounds like a Dyson sucking up gravel. It shouldn’t matter but it does.
    Starmer with tits as I saw one Corbynite describe her on twitter.
    That is why Corbynites will never see office
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,197

    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    I'd agree. IMV rationality and irrationality are not binary, but a spectrum that varies in an individual over time. Spock was a caricature of 'perfect' rationality, and his alienness / otherworldliness shows that perfect rationality is an alien concept to us.
    Sci-fi metahphors are great
    Johnson = Fwi Song
    I don't get that reference. I'm terrible at remembering charachter names from fiction.
    It isn't going to be complementary, is it? PB Rule #45234: Dura_Ace is *never* complimentary about anybody... ;)

    (The character is from one of the Culture books by Iain M Banks. ?Use of Weapons? Dies in a suitably nasty manner.
    I have been complimentary about Greta, Rayner and Lenin in the past on here.
    I wonder that those three have in common?

    Ah yes, praising them winds up certain posters something rotten ... ;)
    What, don't you full accept that Lenin was a woman in every sense?

    I thought we'd got rid of transphobia around here...
  • ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    Latest net favourability ratings for top UK politicians:

    Rishi Sunak: +3
    Lizz Truss: -18
    Sajid Javid: -19
    Keir Starmer: -27
    Boris Johnson: -30
    Priti Patel: -44
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1451535250014851073?s=20

    We’ll see what happens to Sunak’s ratings next week after the budget. I think he’ll take a hit.
    The polls are showing a marked reduction in conservative support from previous highs with a labour uptick but it does seem the public are coming round to a plague (yes I know) on all your houses
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,733
    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    I'd agree. IMV rationality and irrationality are not binary, but a spectrum that varies in an individual over time. Spock was a caricature of 'perfect' rationality, and his alienness / otherworldliness shows that perfect rationality is an alien concept to us.
    Sci-fi metahphors are great
    Johnson = Fwi Song
    I don't get that reference. I'm terrible at remembering charachter names from fiction.
    It isn't going to be complementary, is it? PB Rule #45234: Dura_Ace is *never* complimentary about anybody... ;)

    (The character is from one of the Culture books by Iain M Banks. ?Use of Weapons? Dies in a suitably nasty manner.
    I have been complimentary about Greta, Rayner and Lenin in the past on here.
    A trio to rival the Three Degrees. Particularly with Lenin on harmonies.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,770

    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    Assisted dying really isn't something I can decide on.

    We need it, no question. Hyufd linked to a guardian piece below by an opponent who was so unimaginative that he thought people would ask for it because they couldn't take the indignity of having their arses wiped. Interesting that Field changed to pro when he saw what a terminal ward is really like.

    Greedy inheritors is an issue. Double iht on estates after assisted dying would go a long way to sorting that.
    He didn't.

    HE spent some time in a hospice which he was full of praise for. He changed his mind because of the suffering of an MP dying from Cancer.
    Ok, for terminal ward read terminal patient. Same point.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,265

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Johnson = Fwi Song

    LOL, but it pisses me off that FS addresses his followers as salt begotten or something, when we know that the vavatch seas are sweet water. Always meant to write a stiff letter to Banks about that. Fucking procrastination.
    Iain Banks was a great guy, and very good fun to have a drink with. As you might, or might not, expect, had a much less serious outlook on life than Terry Pratchett.
    I like Pratchett's books better, but my guess is that Banks was much more fun. Pratchett has an air of self censorship about his works, with a slightly Disney approach to sex and death. He was offered and took a knighthood which is a fairly good indicator of falling short of your potential.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,154
    JBriskin3 said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
    I like your point - however anyone who's watched BBC Parliament lately knows that, for some reason; it has become a left/right issue.
    So it is a l/r issue after all is what you are saying?

    These things ain't rational, but that's not the same as saying they aren't real.
    Not sure what point your trying to make. I agree with AnaB but it shouldn't be a L/R issue. I was just providing evidence that, unfortunatly, it already is one.
    It isn't.
    Then why do the Tories not wear masks and Lab and SNP Types do whenever I switch on BBC Parliament?
    Who knows? Why do Labour people not wear masks at all at Conference? Judge people on what they do, not what they say, or what they do for the benefit of the TV cameras.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 849

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Johnson = Fwi Song

    LOL, but it pisses me off that FS addresses his followers as salt begotten or something, when we know that the vavatch seas are sweet water. Always meant to write a stiff letter to Banks about that. Fucking procrastination.
    Iain Banks was a great guy, and very good fun to have a drink with. As you might, or might not, expect, had a much less serious outlook on life than Terry Pratchett.
    I actually got to be on a whisky-tasting panel with Banks at a sci fi con near Heathrow.

    Mrs J loves his books, and she was rather jealous, until she got to meet him backstage.

    I hadn't read any of his books at the time, and I rather queered it for her by thanking him for his books. When he thanked me for the thanks, I added something like: "Yes, whilst she's reading them she's not annoying me. I get days of peace when you release a new book ..."

    I *think* he took it humorously ...
    I've been to a couple of readings of IB/IMB books.

    But my epic author meet anecdote - this from Douglas Coupland:

    Me: Did you have to think about putting exclamation mark in Hey Nostradamus!

    Coupland: No but there was some debate about whether there should have been a comma in it

    Coupland: Are you a writer Briskin?

    Me: Not really only postcards and emails really

    Coupland: Good luck with the writing Briskin
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,154
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
    I like your point - however anyone who's watched BBC Parliament lately knows that, for some reason; it has become a left/right issue.
    So it is a l/r issue after all is what you are saying?

    These things ain't rational, but that's not the same as saying they aren't real.
    It isn't. You just want too make so. But because you want to make it so, doesn't mean it is. Sorry.
    I don't give a flying fuck whether it is left right or centre. I'm just the guy who is telling you the way things are.
    Inaccurately as it happens. As per.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,818
    Farooq said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Johnson = Fwi Song

    LOL, but it pisses me off that FS addresses his followers as salt begotten or something, when we know that the vavatch seas are sweet water. Always meant to write a stiff letter to Banks about that. Fucking procrastination.
    Iain Banks was a great guy, and very good fun to have a drink with. As you might, or might not, expect, had a much less serious outlook on life than Terry Pratchett.
    I like Pratchett's books better, but my guess is that Banks was much more fun. Pratchett has an air of self censorship about his works, with a slightly Disney approach to sex and death. He was offered and took a knighthood which is a fairly good indicator of falling short of your potential.
    Um, how is accepting a knighthood an indicator of anything beyond the willingness to accept an honour.
  • Greta Thunberg

    Green Thug Brat
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,629
    edited October 22
    Dura_Ace said:

    I agree with @HYUFD on this, actually.

    Reeves looks like a leader. She has gravitas and the right credentials. She also has a northern seat, albeit she herself is a Londoner.

    Labour could do a lot worse.

    Her voice sounds like a Dyson sucking up gravel. It shouldn’t matter but it does.
    I still think she looks OK!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,629

    Greta Thunberg

    Green Thug Brat

    BlancheLivermore

    Belch Nail Remover
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,154
    I have just listened to Rachel's speech at Conference. She has a fairly deep voice for a woman, certainly in comparison to her rivals such as Rosena and Lisa, who have more traditionally feminine-sounding voices.

    So what? Reeves tone is quite calming to my ear and gives her gravitas. I'm not sure it's the dealbreaker the Corbyino-PBTories wish it was.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 2,420

    I have just listened to Rachel's speech at Conference. She has a fairly deep voice for a woman, certainly in comparison to her rivals such as Rosena and Lisa, who have more traditionally feminine-sounding voices.

    So what? Reeves tone is quite calming to my ear and gives her gravitas. I'm not sure it's the dealbreaker the Corbyino-PBTories wish it was.

    IIRC Mrs Thatcher had quite a deep voice, seemed to work for her.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,265
    eek said:

    Farooq said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Johnson = Fwi Song

    LOL, but it pisses me off that FS addresses his followers as salt begotten or something, when we know that the vavatch seas are sweet water. Always meant to write a stiff letter to Banks about that. Fucking procrastination.
    Iain Banks was a great guy, and very good fun to have a drink with. As you might, or might not, expect, had a much less serious outlook on life than Terry Pratchett.
    I like Pratchett's books better, but my guess is that Banks was much more fun. Pratchett has an air of self censorship about his works, with a slightly Disney approach to sex and death. He was offered and took a knighthood which is a fairly good indicator of falling short of your potential.
    Um, how is accepting a knighthood an indicator of anything beyond the willingness to accept an honour.
    If I answered that honestly, it would technically be treason.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,062

    Dura_Ace said:

    I agree with @HYUFD on this, actually.

    Reeves looks like a leader. She has gravitas and the right credentials. She also has a northern seat, albeit she herself is a Londoner.

    Labour could do a lot worse.

    Her voice sounds like a Dyson sucking up gravel. It shouldn’t matter but it does.
    I still think she looks OK!
    Any port in a storm eh?
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 849

    I have just listened to Rachel's speech at Conference. She has a fairly deep voice for a woman, certainly in comparison to her rivals such as Rosena and Lisa, who have more traditionally feminine-sounding voices.

    So what? Reeves tone is quite calming to my ear and gives her gravitas. I'm not sure it's the dealbreaker the Corbyino-PBTories wish it was.

    I liked your comment.

    However I think you might be underestimating quite how important these things are.

    Whenever I watch or listen to that terrible Jacinda woman I can't help but compare her to our much more respectable TMay.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 849
    edited October 22
    BigRich said:

    I have just listened to Rachel's speech at Conference. She has a fairly deep voice for a woman, certainly in comparison to her rivals such as Rosena and Lisa, who have more traditionally feminine-sounding voices.

    So what? Reeves tone is quite calming to my ear and gives her gravitas. I'm not sure it's the dealbreaker the Corbyino-PBTories wish it was.

    IIRC Mrs Thatcher had quite a deep voice, seemed to work for her.
    Thatcher infamously got vocal couching.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,770

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
    I like your point - however anyone who's watched BBC Parliament lately knows that, for some reason; it has become a left/right issue.
    So it is a l/r issue after all is what you are saying?

    These things ain't rational, but that's not the same as saying they aren't real.
    It isn't. You just want too make so. But because you want to make it so, doesn't mean it is. Sorry.
    I don't give a flying fuck whether it is left right or centre. I'm just the guy who is telling you the way things are.
    Inaccurately as it happens. As per.
    So all the right say X and all the left say not X, but we have to believe that X is not an l r issue in a sort of spiritual sense because you say so?

    Got it
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,725
    edited October 22

    Greta Thunberg

    Green Thug Brat

    And those who like her are Brat Hugger Nut(s)?

    OK, I have a leftover 'e'

    Let's make it sound more Scandinavian: Brat Huegger Nut
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,265
    JBriskin3 said:

    BigRich said:

    I have just listened to Rachel's speech at Conference. She has a fairly deep voice for a woman, certainly in comparison to her rivals such as Rosena and Lisa, who have more traditionally feminine-sounding voices.

    So what? Reeves tone is quite calming to my ear and gives her gravitas. I'm not sure it's the dealbreaker the Corbyino-PBTories wish it was.

    IIRC Mrs Thatcher had quite a deep voice, seemed to work for her.
    Thatcher infamously got vocal couching.
    She got vocal couching? And THAT is the voice on which she decided to... settle...?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,562
    BigRich said:

    BigRich said:

    @HugoGye
    255,406 covid booster jabs recorded in England yesterday - up from c.214k a week ago.

    I wish they would put the booster/third jabs on the main COVID dashboard,

    Amongst other things it might give a sense of movement - improvement.
    The dashboard team are working on it - the biggest issue they have with new data is getting agreement from the various supplying groups how they will supply the data.

    They still haven't got a lot of the age breakdown stuff from Scotland, for example.
    Thanks, that's good to know :)

    Also good to know about the number of boosters that you posted, I had thought we where behind the rest of the EU, but at 250,000 or so a day, perhaps we have caught up or at least close to catching up.

    If the key point is the 6 months, then presumably we have a lot of scope to catch up and overtake as we got so many jabs in early?
    We should be running well ahead of the EU on third jabs, as relatively few people in the EU are six months from their second jab.

    Most of the EU was relatively recently vaccinated, and with Pfizer too, so they are benefiting from being behind the curve.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 849
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
    I like your point - however anyone who's watched BBC Parliament lately knows that, for some reason; it has become a left/right issue.
    So it is a l/r issue after all is what you are saying?

    These things ain't rational, but that's not the same as saying they aren't real.
    It isn't. You just want too make so. But because you want to make it so, doesn't mean it is. Sorry.
    I don't give a flying fuck whether it is left right or centre. I'm just the guy who is telling you the way things are.
    Inaccurately as it happens. As per.
    So all the right say X and all the left say not X, but we have to believe that X is not an l r issue in a sort of spiritual sense because you say so?

    Got it
    AnaB is saying that Lab are only doing it in Parliament because there's cameras there. I'm getting a bit bored of this debate now.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,991
    JBriskin3 said:

    BigRich said:

    I have just listened to Rachel's speech at Conference. She has a fairly deep voice for a woman, certainly in comparison to her rivals such as Rosena and Lisa, who have more traditionally feminine-sounding voices.

    So what? Reeves tone is quite calming to my ear and gives her gravitas. I'm not sure it's the dealbreaker the Corbyino-PBTories wish it was.

    IIRC Mrs Thatcher had quite a deep voice, seemed to work for her.
    Thatcher infamously got vocal couching.
    Was she lying on a sofa at the time?
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 849
    Farooq said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    BigRich said:

    I have just listened to Rachel's speech at Conference. She has a fairly deep voice for a woman, certainly in comparison to her rivals such as Rosena and Lisa, who have more traditionally feminine-sounding voices.

    So what? Reeves tone is quite calming to my ear and gives her gravitas. I'm not sure it's the dealbreaker the Corbyino-PBTories wish it was.

    IIRC Mrs Thatcher had quite a deep voice, seemed to work for her.
    Thatcher infamously got vocal couching.
    She got vocal couching? And THAT is the voice on which she decided to... settle...?
    I mean coaching
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,719
    edited October 22
    https://twitter.com/NobleNorthern/status/1451502740211916802

    The one saving grace in the whole Alec Baldwin affair is that it wasn't on live television like what happened to this poor chap. #AlecBaldwin
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,725

    JBriskin3 said:

    BigRich said:

    I have just listened to Rachel's speech at Conference. She has a fairly deep voice for a woman, certainly in comparison to her rivals such as Rosena and Lisa, who have more traditionally feminine-sounding voices.

    So what? Reeves tone is quite calming to my ear and gives her gravitas. I'm not sure it's the dealbreaker the Corbyino-PBTories wish it was.

    IIRC Mrs Thatcher had quite a deep voice, seemed to work for her.
    Thatcher infamously got vocal couching.
    Was she lying on a sofa at the time?
    I thought she was a little more honest than today's politicians ...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,808
    BigRich said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Isn't the obvious issue the Budget?

    In non-General Election years tax rises etc can kick in at April. See the NI insurance rise already announced which will be an ugly hit in people's pay packets when it kicks in.

    In General Election years tax cuts etc can kick in at April.

    So Governments are piling the bad onto non-General Election years, and the good onto General Election years, and either way that kicks in at the Spring.

    That works for election years, and given the fiscal corset of the next few years, it's a worry for the government.

    But if I'd read this right (and it's fascinating, thanks @Fishing!) there's a wider pattern. Is it something as primal as early May is when winter and fake-Spring are unambiguously over, it's sunny and warm again, the flowers are out, and we all feel cheerful and optimistic? And that makes us feel positively disposed towards the government (of whatever party), even though it has literally nothing to do with their efforts?
    But if I read it right the data says Spring is better in GE years and worse in non-GE years. So sunny and warm aren't the answer because if they were we'd be feeling sunny and warm in non-GE years too.

    The Budget explains both to me. In non-GE years when the Government are piling on the bad news/taxes etc then we feel angry at the Government. Then in GE years they come back and bribe us with our own money and we are happy again. Overall.
    Yup, I misread that. The government's problem is then that it hasn't been able to build up a pile of cash to bribe people with. The Scrooge/Santa cycle has been prised apart from the electoral cycle- partly because of the elections in 2017 and 2019, but mostly because of Covid.
    Regardless of the state of the public finances, Covid spending and so forth, I'd be absolutely astonished if Boris and Rishi don't find access to a magic money forest that enables them to bribe the electorate in advance of the GE, whenever it is.
    Strategy is clear.

    Tax rises now.
    Tax cuts before election.

    Fiscally, this means we won’t meaningfully subsidise carbon zero or “level up”.

    We’ll also see the continued hollowing out of the state outside the protected budgets:
    - health (an insatiable maw)
    - education
    - defence
    Sounds about right.

    And if this government- blessed with a chunky majority, a PM who can persuade people of anything and the moment when the public is willing to look for changes- can't move the nation on from that, then we're collectively stuffed.

    Unless (to adapt the line used, I think, about British Airways) we're happy to become a health service and pension system which happens to have a nation attached.
    Well, it’s baked in.

    Unless we tax more (wealth, not income) or we decide that we can afford more debt.

    As it happens, I believe we should lower income taxes, increase wealth taxes, *and* allow ourselves a higher debt level to pay for levelling up.
    Seems public opinion backs wealth taxes as I do

    https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1451489992509886474?t=HcljOHoo6nq3e_8LfzyK7A&s=19
    Public opinion always favours taxing other people. The question actually refers to taxing "the wealthy" not "wealth" and "wealthy" is an ambiguous term in common usage that could mean either wealth rich or income rich.
    WIW I think we should tax wealth but also tax higher earners' income more. But a wealth tax is only going to be practical and raise significant amounts if it is levied on primary residences, with a relatively low threshold. Good luck getting that past the voters.
    "They're coming for your house" - these words strike utter terror into people. I don't see any party going out on a limb with this. It's probably one of those things that can only happen if both parties agree on it.
    I think the solution, as GW suggested below, is to abolish other taxes at the same time, ie council tax and stamp duty, two taxes that make little sense anyway. A tax on land values could be shared between local and central government. Arrangements could be made for the elderly to defer payment until death and sale of property. The tax would be seriously progressive and levelling up compliant too.
    Indeed. On average people move every seven years, so you could start by abolishing stamp duty and introducing an annual property tax at 1/7 of the rates of stamp duty.
    Net housing wealth is around £5trn so a 1% tax would raise £50bn which is the same amount as is currently raised by stamp duty and council tax combined. Or to put it differently, we are currently taxing housing wealth by 1% per year on average, but in a highly inefficient and unfair way.
    According to the Proportional Property Tax people it is about half that, and they propose a rate of 0.48%, plus the abolition of Stamp Duty, as being revenue neutral.
    Is the defence between strictly housing and all land/buildings?

    Don't know but just a thought?
    PPT does not address business rates, so replaces Council Tax, which is on all residential property.

    But so was the 1% suggestion.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,808
    BigRich said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Isn't the obvious issue the Budget?

    In non-General Election years tax rises etc can kick in at April. See the NI insurance rise already announced which will be an ugly hit in people's pay packets when it kicks in.

    In General Election years tax cuts etc can kick in at April.

    So Governments are piling the bad onto non-General Election years, and the good onto General Election years, and either way that kicks in at the Spring.

    That works for election years, and given the fiscal corset of the next few years, it's a worry for the government.

    But if I'd read this right (and it's fascinating, thanks @Fishing!) there's a wider pattern. Is it something as primal as early May is when winter and fake-Spring are unambiguously over, it's sunny and warm again, the flowers are out, and we all feel cheerful and optimistic? And that makes us feel positively disposed towards the government (of whatever party), even though it has literally nothing to do with their efforts?
    But if I read it right the data says Spring is better in GE years and worse in non-GE years. So sunny and warm aren't the answer because if they were we'd be feeling sunny and warm in non-GE years too.

    The Budget explains both to me. In non-GE years when the Government are piling on the bad news/taxes etc then we feel angry at the Government. Then in GE years they come back and bribe us with our own money and we are happy again. Overall.
    Yup, I misread that. The government's problem is then that it hasn't been able to build up a pile of cash to bribe people with. The Scrooge/Santa cycle has been prised apart from the electoral cycle- partly because of the elections in 2017 and 2019, but mostly because of Covid.
    Regardless of the state of the public finances, Covid spending and so forth, I'd be absolutely astonished if Boris and Rishi don't find access to a magic money forest that enables them to bribe the electorate in advance of the GE, whenever it is.
    Strategy is clear.

    Tax rises now.
    Tax cuts before election.

    Fiscally, this means we won’t meaningfully subsidise carbon zero or “level up”.

    We’ll also see the continued hollowing out of the state outside the protected budgets:
    - health (an insatiable maw)
    - education
    - defence
    Sounds about right.

    And if this government- blessed with a chunky majority, a PM who can persuade people of anything and the moment when the public is willing to look for changes- can't move the nation on from that, then we're collectively stuffed.

    Unless (to adapt the line used, I think, about British Airways) we're happy to become a health service and pension system which happens to have a nation attached.
    Well, it’s baked in.

    Unless we tax more (wealth, not income) or we decide that we can afford more debt.

    As it happens, I believe we should lower income taxes, increase wealth taxes, *and* allow ourselves a higher debt level to pay for levelling up.
    Seems public opinion backs wealth taxes as I do

    https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1451489992509886474?t=HcljOHoo6nq3e_8LfzyK7A&s=19
    Public opinion always favours taxing other people. The question actually refers to taxing "the wealthy" not "wealth" and "wealthy" is an ambiguous term in common usage that could mean either wealth rich or income rich.
    WIW I think we should tax wealth but also tax higher earners' income more. But a wealth tax is only going to be practical and raise significant amounts if it is levied on primary residences, with a relatively low threshold. Good luck getting that past the voters.
    "They're coming for your house" - these words strike utter terror into people. I don't see any party going out on a limb with this. It's probably one of those things that can only happen if both parties agree on it.
    I think the solution, as GW suggested below, is to abolish other taxes at the same time, ie council tax and stamp duty, two taxes that make little sense anyway. A tax on land values could be shared between local and central government. Arrangements could be made for the elderly to defer payment until death and sale of property. The tax would be seriously progressive and levelling up compliant too.
    Indeed. On average people move every seven years, so you could start by abolishing stamp duty and introducing an annual property tax at 1/7 of the rates of stamp duty.
    Net housing wealth is around £5trn so a 1% tax would raise £50bn which is the same amount as is currently raised by stamp duty and council tax combined. Or to put it differently, we are currently taxing housing wealth by 1% per year on average, but in a highly inefficient and unfair way.
    According to the Proportional Property Tax people it is about half that, and they propose a rate of 0.48%, plus the abolition of Stamp Duty, as being revenue neutral.
    Is the defence between strictly housing and all land/buildings?

    Don't know but just a thought?
    It was probably Edwina who got a vocal couching...

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,043

    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sad news.


    Ex-MP Frank Field announces he is terminally ill as he backs assisted dying law

    This is very sad. I have never been a Labour supporter but Frank Field is a thoroughly decent man who deserves everyone's respect for a lifetime of service.
    I sense that 'assisted dying' (the debate in which this sad news was announced) is an idea whose time has come.
    It's fundamentally a libertarian issue. If the government would just let us but the drugs we want to buy including barbiturates, we could sort ourselves out.
    Interesting point you raise here. What's the difference between suicide and an assisted death? I guess it revolves around "needs assistance" - but I can imagine this is not that easy to formulate into a test/question with a binary yes/no result.
    Anything you can legally do, you should be able to ask somebody else for assistance to do, or pay somebody to help you do it.

    I would frame this as 'Assisted Suicide' which I think is both accurate and descriptive.
    Ok, but to test that. If I help a friend who is physically healthy but depressed to take his own life, you don't think that should be legal (for me), do you?
    I do, with safeguards.

    I don't think he should be able to call you up drunk and depressed one night and you go over and stab him to put him out of his misery.

    But if he were to certify that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind - then a month or two apart give a second certification that he wishes to die while getting a psychological assessment that he's of sound mind, then I think his wishes should be respected.
    Can a physically healthy person who wants to kill themselves be of sound mind? That's quite an interesting question. Otherwise, if he was up to going through 2 formal psychological assessments, months apart, he would most likely be up to doing the deed himself, I'd have thought. So, in practice, we're probably more in the realms of a spur-of-the-moment situation or "help" as in encouragement. "Yeah, do it, mate. Why the fuck not." This sort of thing. Or maybe more active than that. I believe this is (potentially) a criminal offence atm and I don't think I'd wish to change that.
    Yes. Severe depression is absolutely not correlated with lack of rationality.
    If all is black, to end it might be rational? Yes, I can see that. And rationality is a feature of a sound mind. So, going on -

    - Can a sound mind think irrationally sometimes?
    - Can an unsound mind think rationally sometimes?

    Number 1 is easy (I think). It's Yes. Number 2 is not so easy to answer, but I think it's also Yes.
    I'd agree. IMV rationality and irrationality are not binary, but a spectrum that varies in an individual over time. Spock was a caricature of 'perfect' rationality, and his alienness / otherworldliness shows that perfect rationality is an alien concept to us.
    Sci-fi metahphors are great
    Johnson = Fwi Song
    I don't get that reference. I'm terrible at remembering charachter names from fiction.
    It isn't going to be complementary, is it? PB Rule #45234: Dura_Ace is *never* complimentary about anybody... ;)

    (The character is from one of the Culture books by Iain M Banks. ?Use of Weapons? Dies in a suitably nasty manner.
    I have been complimentary about Greta, Rayner and Lenin in the past on here.
    I wonder that those three have in common?

    Ah yes, praising them winds up certain posters something rotten ... ;)
    The Good, the Trad, and the Fugly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,043
    Farooq said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    BigRich said:

    I have just listened to Rachel's speech at Conference. She has a fairly deep voice for a woman, certainly in comparison to her rivals such as Rosena and Lisa, who have more traditionally feminine-sounding voices.

    So what? Reeves tone is quite calming to my ear and gives her gravitas. I'm not sure it's the dealbreaker the Corbyino-PBTories wish it was.

    IIRC Mrs Thatcher had quite a deep voice, seemed to work for her.
    Thatcher infamously got vocal couching.
    She got vocal couching? And THAT is the voice on which she decided to... settle...?
    You only have to listen to before to understand.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,562
    TimT said:

    Had my 3rd Pfizer jab yesterday. No real adverse side effects, although my arm is way sorer and more swollen than the previous two shots.

    I'm going to hopefully get the Moderna booster before I come to the UK in a few weeks. (Plus, hopefully get my 11 year old son his first Pfizer shot.)
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,035
    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    kinabalu said:

    Interesting header, @Fishing, thanks. The last election was an odd one in that it felt a bit like it was called by the opposition ("Boris" and his buccaneering Brexiteers) against the government (the Remainer establishment). I think this accounted for some of the big win. Such a spin - "vote for change, we've only been in for 14 years" mustn't be allowed to succeed again and Labour are totally on this. Note how their spokespeople keep saying "this Tory government" when on TV and radio. Not "the government", not "the Tories", not "Boris Johnson" - This Tory Government.

    That's all true, but I think you've left out the two most bizarre features of that surreal period - that the government had just sacked dozens of own MPs, and that about half the official opposition, who usually can't wait to fight an election, or say they can't anyway, abstained voted against it!
    And you can see why they DID vote against it! C80. Should have stuck to that imo. Kept "Boris" in his cage. People might have got sick of the spectacle.
    You're talking about Boris' supporters there. Who would they have turned to?

    Clearly not Corbyn. Much more likely some extra-Parliamentary populist, probably with anti-democratic leanings.

    The decisive result we saw in December 2019 at least ended the political crisis the country had been in for the past three and a half years in a democratic way.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,770
    JBriskin3 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Cookie said:

    @billybragg
    Was asked why I was wearing a mask this morning while ordering breakfast. Did you see those images of the Commons, I replied, with a bare-faced govt facing the masked opposition? I don’t want anyone in here thinking I’m a Tory
    https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1451482312797982729

    If the left want to politicise mask-wearing, a) it is regrettable - why must bloody everything be turned into a culture war issue? and b) it will be counter-productive: if you want to associate your side with a particular action, associate it with an action people want to do.
    Yes, it's ridiculous. As it is NOT a left-right issue in any way shape or form.

    The moronic culture warriors piss me right off.
    I like your point - however anyone who's watched BBC Parliament lately knows that, for some reason; it has become a left/right issue.
    So it is a l/r issue after all is what you are saying?

    These things ain't rational, but that's not the same as saying they aren't real.
    It isn't. You just want too make so. But because you want to make it so, doesn't mean it is. Sorry.
    I don't give a flying fuck whether it is left right or centre. I'm just the guy who is telling you the way things are.
    Inaccurately as it happens. As per.
    So all the right say X and all the left say not X, but we have to believe that X is not an l r issue in a sort of spiritual sense because you say so?

    Got it
    AnaB is saying that Lab are only doing it in Parliament because there's cameras there. I'm getting a bit bored of this debate now.
    Well he is dead wrong. Look at the US.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Johnson = Fwi Song

    LOL, but it pisses me off that FS addresses his followers as salt begotten or something, when we know that the vavatch seas are sweet water. Always meant to write a stiff letter to Banks about that. Fucking procrastination.
    Iain Banks was a great guy, and very good fun to have a drink with. As you might, or might not, expect, had a much less serious outlook on life than Terry Pratchett.
    I actually got to be on a whisky-tasting panel with Banks at a sci fi con near Heathrow.

    Mrs J loves his books, and she was rather jealous, until she got to meet him backstage.

    I hadn't read any of his books at the time, and I rather queered it for her by thanking him for his books. When he thanked me for the thanks, I added something like: "Yes, whilst she's reading them she's not annoying me. I get days of peace when you release a new book ..."

    I *think* he took it humorously ...
    I imagine whisky-tasting would have been quite an event with Banks! I (and a handful of others) had a drink with him at the worldcon in Brighton in 1987. It was either the Grand or the Metropole, and after quite a bit of drinking and singing, for a bet he climbed up the front of the hotel, balcony to balcony, to get to his room. Fifth floor, I think?
  • ANGELA RAYNER = A REAL GRANNY + E

    So close..
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,424

    JBriskin3 said:

    BigRich said:

    I have just listened to Rachel's speech at Conference. She has a fairly deep voice for a woman, certainly in comparison to her rivals such as Rosena and Lisa, who have more traditionally feminine-sounding voices.

    So what? Reeves tone is quite calming to my ear and gives her gravitas. I'm not sure it's the dealbreaker the Corbyino-PBTories wish it was.

    IIRC Mrs Thatcher had quite a deep voice, seemed to work for her.
    Thatcher infamously got vocal couching.
    Was she lying on a sofa at the time?
    Clearly in helped to cushion what she had to say.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,753
    Farooq said:

    ANGELA RAYNER = A REAL GRANNY + E

    So close..

    Nearly Reagan
    It's morning in Greater Manchester.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,526

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Johnson = Fwi Song

    LOL, but it pisses me off that FS addresses his followers as salt begotten or something, when we know that the vavatch seas are sweet water. Always meant to write a stiff letter to Banks about that. Fucking procrastination.
    Iain Banks was a great guy, and very good fun to have a drink with. As you might, or might not, expect, had a much less serious outlook on life than Terry Pratchett.
    I actually got to be on a whisky-tasting panel with Banks at a sci fi con near Heathrow.

    Mrs J loves his books, and she was rather jealous, until she got to meet him backstage.

    I hadn't read any of his books at the time, and I rather queered it for her by thanking him for his books. When he thanked me for the thanks, I added something like: "Yes, whilst she's reading them she's not annoying me. I get days of peace when you release a new book ..."

    I *think* he took it humorously ...
    I imagine whisky-tasting would have been quite an event with Banks! I (and a handful of others) had a drink with him at the worldcon in Brighton in 1987. It was either the Grand or the Metropole, and after quite a bit of drinking and singing, for a bet he climbed up the front of the hotel, balcony to balcony, to get to his room. Fifth floor, I think?
    IIRC he wrote a book on whisky. I gave it to my dad (about the only IMB book he would touch, anyway, though that's not the only reason!).

    Just finished The Algebraist. Miss his annual new book very much.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,629
    tlg86 said:

    https://twitter.com/NobleNorthern/status/1451502740211916802

    The one saving grace in the whole Alec Baldwin affair is that it wasn't on live television like what happened to this poor chap. #AlecBaldwin

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGeLnX3aj40
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,526

    JBriskin3 said:

    BigRich said:

    I have just listened to Rachel's speech at Conference. She has a fairly deep voice for a woman, certainly in comparison to her rivals such as Rosena and Lisa, who have more traditionally feminine-sounding voices.

    So what? Reeves tone is quite calming to my ear and gives her gravitas. I'm not sure it's the dealbreaker the Corbyino-PBTories wish it was.

    IIRC Mrs Thatcher had quite a deep voice, seemed to work for her.
    Thatcher infamously got vocal couching.
    Was she lying on a sofa at the time?
    How are we expected to divan the answer? Through our sheer collective intellect.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,424
    Carnyx said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    BigRich said:

    I have just listened to Rachel's speech at Conference. She has a fairly deep voice for a woman, certainly in comparison to her rivals such as Rosena and Lisa, who have more traditionally feminine-sounding voices.

    So what? Reeves tone is quite calming to my ear and gives her gravitas. I'm not sure it's the dealbreaker the Corbyino-PBTories wish it was.

    IIRC Mrs Thatcher had quite a deep voice, seemed to work for her.
    Thatcher infamously got vocal couching.
    Was she lying on a sofa at the time?
    How are we expected to divan the answer? Through our sheer collective intellect.
    It helped to deal with her armchair critics
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,013
    Alistair said:

    Given Carlotta seems to have abandoned posting the ONS infection survey numbers these last 2 week

    England 1-in-55
    Wales 1-in-45
    NI 1-in-130
    Scotland 1-in-90

    I think you’ll find I posted them last week. Funny how you’ve suddenly started posting them!
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 2,420
    Cases are now falling in Northern Ireland, when is the Half term there?
  • Seems like the polling average is now a very narrow Tory lead and they are now vulnerable to slipping behind.

    Extra £1000 on Labour lead went on today.
This discussion has been closed.