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Further signs that the GOP will steal the 2024 election – politicalbetting.com

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  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,559

    What no Somerset Brie? Are you having to order the French muck instead?
    This is what has sold out:

    Caws Cenarth brie

    Velvet-soft organic brie with a rich mushroomy flavour that intensifies with age – if you can wait that long. This brie is handmade in small batches by the Adams family in the lush valleys of South Wales.


    I eat Cheddar and Wensleydale.
  • MrEd said:

    Hard to say. His son-in-law is Jewish and certainly the feedback I've had is that he's not that bothered than skin colour.

    He certainly has less dubious form than good old Joe Biden who hung out with Southern Racists senators and who sponsored the 1994 Crime Bill. That was one of his appeals to having Biden as VP i.e. to reassure people he wouldn't be radical on race.
    He seems particularly bothered by his own skin being anything other than orange.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,613

    This is what has sold out:

    Caws Cenarth brie

    Velvet-soft organic brie with a rich mushroomy flavour that intensifies with age – if you can wait that long. This brie is handmade in small batches by the Adams family in the lush valleys of South Wales.


    I eat Cheddar and Wensleydale.
    Yum.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,613
    edited October 2021

    He seems particularly bothered by his own skin being anything other than orange.
    [deleted]
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,774
    FF43 said:

    The difference between NI and the UK mainland is that NI is part of the Single Market, while UK mainland isn't. It makes practical sense for EU institutions to enforce compliance with its market rules, even if the constitutional position is iffy.
    I am thinking maybe the EFTA Court, or equivalent, might be a solution. ie a court within the jurisdiction with judges that are are nationals of that jurisdiction, which is tasked with interpreting EU law for that jurisdiction following EU case law. The UK might have to join EFTA.
  • This is what has sold out:

    Caws Cenarth brie

    Velvet-soft organic brie with a rich mushroomy flavour that intensifies with age – if you can wait that long. This brie is handmade in small batches by the Adams family in the lush valleys of South Wales.


    I eat Cheddar and Wensleydale.
    If people want brie with mushroomy flavour then can't they buy camembert instead ?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,976

    I would just say I do not think of Trump at all

    Maxwell was a slimeball...
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277

    You have a one track devotion to the EU and now calling those who may have a different view 'lunatics'

    As I understand it HMG is not willing to have ECJ judgment over NI

    We are a third country to the EU and therefore a mechanism has to be found that is reasonable to both sides
    The mechanism is perfectly fair and has little impact on businesses but ECJ oversight has to be there otherwise this impacts NI access to the single market . Originally all the moaning from the unionist side was on practical issues regarding trade , this is going to be addressed by the EU who are making large compromises but now no 10 is moving the goal posts . Frost is making impossible demands re the ECJ . No 10 was either too stupid to understand what they signed upto or disgracefully signed a deal which they never had any intention of honouring.

    So they were happy to have ECJ oversight when Bozo went round saying the deal was marvelous but now apparently it’s not . Could you please explain why ?





  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,297
    MrEd said:

    I asked Kle this question before but why are they not equivalent? What are the specific factors that make it thus?
    Because vexatious liigation + intimidation of officials + incited violent insurrection is of a vastly different order to complaing about Russian interference.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,911
    MaxPB said:

    I hope Trump fucks off and dies tbh. He's a threat to democracy and a loathsome person who has tried to overthrow the legitimate winners of the US election.

    An article in today's Sunday Times is convinced he'll be the GOP nominee for 2024.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,297

    The logical thing to do is to have an arbitration process. One Party ruling on the other Parties jurisdiction isn't acceptable.
    Just thinking outside the box for a second, perhaps the deal as signed off and pronounced highly satisfactory by both parties could be implemented?
  • nico679 said:

    The mechanism is perfectly fair and has little impact on businesses but ECJ oversight has to be there otherwise this impacts NI access to the single market . Originally all the moaning from the unionist side was on practical issues regarding trade , this is going to be addressed by the EU who are making large compromises but now no 10 is moving the goal posts . Frost is making impossible demands re the ECJ . No 10 was either too stupid to understand what they signed upto or disgracefully signed a deal which they never had any intention of honouring.

    So they were happy to have ECJ oversight when Bozo went round saying the deal was marvelous but now apparently it’s not . Could you please explain why ?





    So Norway, Liechtenstein and Iceland can have access to the Single Market without ECJ oversight, but Northern Ireland can't?

    You've really drank the kool-aid haven't you? 🤦‍♂️
  • kinabalu said:

    Just thinking outside the box for a second, perhaps the deal as signed off and pronounced highly satisfactory by both parties could be implemented?
    Agreed. Starting and ending with Article 16 of that deal.

    Article 16 gets invoked, deal implemented in full, job done let's move on OK?
  • kinabalu said:

    Just thinking outside the box for a second, perhaps the deal as signed off and pronounced highly satisfactory by both parties could be implemented?
    Honouring agreements that have been signed off by both parties? Such mad talk will get you nowhere in this brave new world.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,153
    edited October 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    An article in today's Sunday Times is convinced he'll be the GOP nominee for 2024.
    Barring health problems, he absolutely will be the nominee. He's already confirmed he will run for the nomination. The only reason he hasn't said "I will run" is because of campain finance laws.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,254
    kinabalu said:

    Because vexatious liigation + intimidation of officials + incited violent insurrection is of a vastly different order to complaing about Russian interference.

    It's worth bearing in mind that the US intelligence community jointly agreed that the Russian government did interfere in the 2016 election. This is not something disputed by any serious party. What is less clear is the extent to which the interference was coordinated with the Trump campaign. The Special Counsel had a very narrow remit to investigate the interference, but clearly felt that there had been obstruction of justice by the Trump campaign and Whitehouse to thwart the investigation, and it expected Congress to act to remedy that obstruction. Congress didn't, the GOP was unwilling to hold Trump to account, and so he's still around and still a potential candidate for 2024. GOP cowardice is the only thing that has kept Trump in the running, the GOP could have torpedoed Trump if they wanted to.
  • Honouring agreements that have been signed off by both parties? Such mad talk will get you nowhere in this brave new world.
    The deal is being honoured.

    Did you think Article 16 wasn't a part of the deal? 🤔

    What part of that are you lot struggling to understand? Why should Articles 1 through 15 be implemented but not number 16?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Andy_JS said:

    An article in today's Sunday Times is convinced he'll be the GOP nominee for 2024.
    One thing that might stop Trump dead in his tracks is a credible split in the Republican party. I don’t think it’s very likely, and the American political system is even more brutal to third parties than the British, but I wouldn’t rule it out, and the eclipse of a major party and its replacement by a new one has happened before in American politics, albeit not for a century and a half.

    I don’t think it would even be a never Trump thing necessarily, more a revulsion of traditional Republicans against the party’s descent into QAnon and conspiracy theory madness.

    (And cue MrEd to tell us that the Democrats are for more likely to split before the Republicans.)
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,153

    They did. They said all along they didn't want to agree to that.

    It was agreed temporarily as part of the Protocol with an exit mechanism if the Protocol caused issues. The Protocol caused issues, so now its time to find a new solution instead.
    They didn't want to agree with it but they did anyway even though they held all the cards?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277

    So Norway, Liechtenstein and Iceland can have access to the Single Market without ECJ oversight, but Northern Ireland can't?

    You've really drank the kool-aid haven't you? 🤦‍♂️
    Those countries are in the EEA and fall under the EFTA court but you seem to have avoided the fact that the WA and TCA are deals done with the EU . NI cannot go under EFTA and no 10 still wouldn’t accept that even if it was possible as they seem to have a hatred of anything with Europe in the name ! You still haven’t answered my question as to why ECJ was fine last year but not now .
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,297
    edited October 2021

    Agreed. Starting and ending with Article 16 of that deal.

    Article 16 gets invoked, deal implemented in full, job done let's move on OK?
    We all agreed when it briefly looked as if the EU were going to abuse A16 that this was not the way to go. It's strictly for emergencies that were not and could not have been foreseen at the time the Protocol was drawn up. So, no, sorry.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    nico679 said:

    Those countries are in the EEA and fall under the EFTA court but you seem to have avoided the fact that the WA and TCA are deals done with the EU . NI cannot go under EFTA and no 10 still wouldn’t accept that even if it was possible as they seem to have a hatred of anything with Europe in the name ! You still haven’t answered my question as to why ECJ was fine last year but not now .
    That’s easy: Boris clearly didn’t get around to bothering to read the agreement until recently.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,525
    edited October 2021
    rpjs said:

    That’s easy: Boris clearly didn’t get around to bothering to read the agreement until recently.
    Thats ok. Neither did Lord Frost. We're back to abject morons deciding that anything with "European" in the title is the EU. OK so it might not be but having weaponised the word to their voter base their red wallers and ex UKIP/BXP voters think that it is.

    So here we are. "We don't want the ECJ". Which means we refuse to join the EFTA which doesn't have the ECJ because they think people they have made ignorant think it does. There are clearly some "Europe means its the EU" posters on here. You'd hope they would know better.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,973
    edited October 2021
    I always thought Kwasi was one of the more sensible ones of this shower of ****s. I wonder if you're a member of such a government that it's just inevitable that you go native on the perpetual lying thing?

    Sam Coates Sky
    @SamCoatesSky
    ·
    9h
    Shortly after Kwasi Kwarteng says he’s engaging with Treasury over ways they can help industry, a Treasury source said:

    “This is not the first time the BEIS secretary has made things up in interviews. To be crystal clear the treasury are not involved in any talks”
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,922

    You have a one track devotion to the EU and now calling those who may have a different view 'lunatics'

    As I understand it HMG is not willing to have ECJ judgment over NI

    We are a third country to the EU and therefore a mechanism has to be found that is reasonable to both sides
    Lunatics is very apt in my opinion. Desperate to self harm, you would almost think they want rid of NI.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,922

    They did. They said all along they didn't want to agree to that.

    It was agreed temporarily as part of the Protocol with an exit mechanism if the Protocol caused issues. The Protocol caused issues, so now its time to find a new solution instead.
    You halfwit, you cannot be a little bit pregnant , they signed the agreement.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    rpjs said:

    One thing that might stop Trump dead in his tracks is a credible split in the Republican party. I don’t think it’s very likely, and the American political system is even more brutal to third parties than the British, but I wouldn’t rule it out, and the eclipse of a major party and its replacement by a new one has happened before in American politics, albeit not for a century and a half.

    I don’t think it would even be a never Trump thing necessarily, more a revulsion of traditional Republicans against the party’s descent into QAnon and conspiracy theory madness.

    (And cue MrEd to tell us that the Democrats are for more likely to split before the Republicans.)
    Actually I won't @rpjs because you are right, the American system is very harsh to third parties and I don't see why the factions in the Democrats would want to split. The Squad and the progressives are gaining ground all the time, most of the moderate faction are happy to go along with their agenda and, in any event, are quite old. It is likely the Democrats will become like the Labour party here as time goes on, with Socialism becoming a core part of the messaging and the old guard shuffling off. If Schumer gets deposed by AOC in 2022 for the NY Senate race, it may accelerate the old guard fading away but the direction of travel is clear.

    As for the Republicans, it's a bit like the Conservatives post-2019. The disaffected have mainly gone and those who are left are in for the ride. Plus for many of the non-Trump candidates, there is much to be said for waiting until 2028 and hoping to be Trump's VP pick. They are generally young, can afford to wait and it gives them several more years of solidifying their support.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,922

    Agreed. Starting and ending with Article 16 of that deal.

    Article 16 gets invoked, deal implemented in full, job done let's move on OK?
    You obviously have not understood anything , yet again.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,675

    I always thought Kwasi was one of the more sensible ones of this shower of ****s. I wonder if you're a member of such a government that it's just inevitable that you go native on the perpetual lying thing?

    Sam Coates Sky
    @SamCoatesSky
    ·
    9h
    Shortly after Kwasi Kwarteng says he’s engaging with Treasury over ways they can help industry, a Treasury source said:

    “This is not the first time the BEIS secretary has made things up in interviews. To be crystal clear the treasury are not involved in any talks”

    Sounds like crossed wires to me, rather than a genuine problem. Someone at Treasure is talking to someone at BIS i would wager.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,297
    glw said:

    It's worth bearing in mind that the US intelligence community jointly agreed that the Russian government did interfere in the 2016 election. This is not something disputed by any serious party. What is less clear is the extent to which the interference was coordinated with the Trump campaign. The Special Counsel had a very narrow remit to investigate the interference, but clearly felt that there had been obstruction of justice by the Trump campaign and Whitehouse to thwart the investigation, and it expected Congress to act to remedy that obstruction. Congress didn't, the GOP was unwilling to hold Trump to account, and so he's still around and still a potential candidate for 2024. GOP cowardice is the only thing that has kept Trump in the running, the GOP could have torpedoed Trump if they wanted to.
    Yep that's right. They have protected and enabled him. History will not be kind.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,644

    I always thought Kwasi was one of the more sensible ones of this shower of ****s. I wonder if you're a member of such a government that it's just inevitable that you go native on the perpetual lying thing?

    Sam Coates Sky
    @SamCoatesSky
    ·
    9h
    Shortly after Kwasi Kwarteng says he’s engaging with Treasury over ways they can help industry, a Treasury source said:

    “This is not the first time the BEIS secretary has made things up in interviews. To be crystal clear the treasury are not involved in any talks”

    Actually quite unusual for a row between Ministries to break into the open as drastically as that - Treasury calls BEIS Secretary of State a liar? I wonder who Johnson agrees with.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,922

    Actually quite unusual for a row between Ministries to break into the open as drastically as that - Treasury calls BEIS Secretary of State a liar? I wonder who Johnson agrees with.
    He is on his 4th or 5th holiday of the year so hard to tell.
  • Sounds like crossed wires to me, rather than a genuine problem. Someone at Treasure is talking to someone at BIS i would wager.
    “This is not the first time the BEIS secretary has made things up in interviews. To be crystal clear the treasury are not involved in any talks” seems a bit more than crossed wires.
  • Actually quite unusual for a row between Ministries to break into the open as drastically as that - Treasury calls BEIS Secretary of State a liar? I wonder who Johnson agrees with.
    Both. Neither. Its not as if there is an actual policy to defend or to promote. They just make it up as they go along and change their mind when the wind changes direction.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,297

    Honouring agreements that have been signed off by both parties? Such mad talk will get you nowhere in this brave new world.
    And so recently too! I know "the past is another country" but that doesn't usually mean last week.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,644
    rpjs said:

    One thing that might stop Trump dead in his tracks is a credible split in the Republican party. I don’t think it’s very likely, and the American political system is even more brutal to third parties than the British, but I wouldn’t rule it out, and the eclipse of a major party and its replacement by a new one has happened before in American politics, albeit not for a century and a half.

    I don’t think it would even be a never Trump thing necessarily, more a revulsion of traditional Republicans against the party’s descent into QAnon and conspiracy theory madness.

    (And cue MrEd to tell us that the Democrats are for more likely to split before the Republicans.)
    The remarkable way that the purged moderate Tories have just faded away is echoed by the quite limited number of Republicans who publicly signed up to the Lincoln Project.
    "The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    are full of passionate intensity."
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,297

    The deal is being honoured.

    Did you think Article 16 wasn't a part of the deal? 🤔

    What part of that are you lot struggling to understand? Why should Articles 1 through 15 be implemented but not number 16?
    If you're going to resort to trolling, Philip, you'll be ignored and that won't be on me or anybody else, it'll be 100% on you.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,674

    The remarkable way that the purged moderate Tories have just faded away is echoed by the quite limited number of Republicans who publicly signed up to the Lincoln Project.
    "The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    are full of passionate intensity."
    In what way was the Dominic Grieve crew moderate? They were extreme EUphiles to the point of being a fifth column within the governing party to block the national interest in favour of a foreign party.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,275
    edited October 2021

    The remarkable way that the purged moderate Tories have just faded away is echoed by the quite limited number of Republicans who publicly signed up to the Lincoln Project.
    "The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    are full of passionate intensity."
    I don't think your old mate Anna Soubry has ever been accused of lacking either conviction or passionate intensity.
  • CatMan said:

    They didn't want to agree with it but they did anyway even though they held all the cards?
    Yes because it was negotiated with the 2017-19 Parliament dicking around.

    Plus of course the priority was to get GB sorted and a fudge for NI to get the deal over the line. But still they managed to not only get an exit from the Protocol via Stormont, but Article 16 too.
  • That's a poor excuse. Most of the facts about Couzens would have been well known to the authorities before Cressida Dick's contract was extended.
    A poor excuse and not actually true. Couzens pled guilty to murder two months before the Commissioner's contract was extended. It was the sentencing that came after.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    MrEd said:

    Actually I won't @rpjs because you are right, the American system is very harsh to third parties and I don't see why the factions in the Democrats would want to split. The Squad and the progressives are gaining ground all the time, most of the moderate faction are happy to go along with their agenda and, in any event, are quite old. It is likely the Democrats will become like the Labour party here as time goes on, with Socialism becoming a core part of the messaging and the old guard shuffling off. If Schumer gets deposed by AOC in 2022 for the NY Senate race, it may accelerate the old guard fading away but the direction of travel is clear.

    As for the Republicans, it's a bit like the Conservatives post-2019. The disaffected have mainly gone and those who are left are in for the ride. Plus for many of the non-Trump candidates, there is much to be said for waiting until 2028 and hoping to be Trump's VP pick. They are generally young, can afford to wait and it gives them several more years of solidifying their support.
    Fair enough! Although I don’t think most
    of the progressives would really pass muster as socialists under any reasonable definition of the term.

    I think Schumer is pretty safe. He’s the incumbent and works hard to maintain a prominent profile: every Sunday he mounts a new initiative which is always covered by the local media, and I think AOC is too left-wing to win the primary across the whole state, although she would probably win the general, so long as the Republicans don’t run a crazy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,913
    edited October 2021
    So, the GOP are just like the 2nd vote "People's vote" Remoaners, then

    Like Keir Starmer?

    Trying to overturn an election just because they didn't like the result. There is not a whit of difference between these idiot GOP guys, and, say, Mr Alistair Meeks. On any Lib Dem. Or any of those fuckers that marched on Westminster
  • kinabalu said:

    If you're going to resort to trolling, Philip, you'll be ignored and that won't be on me or anybody else, it'll be 100% on you.
    What trolling?

    If you invoke, perfectly legitimately, an exit mechanism within an agreement then that is implementing the deal via doing so.

    If you renege the Protocol via means not within the Protocol, ie by overriding it in Parliament, then that's breaking international law. But this isn't.
  • I don't think your old mate Anna Soubry has ever been accused of lacking either conviction or passionate intensity.
    As to the Lincoln Project apart from being anti-Trump what did it actually support.

    The problem the Republican Party had is that it had become a cheerleader for tax and regulation cuts on the rich and big business with a heavy side line of Middle Eastern warmongering.

    Which allowed a big opening which Trump was able to exploit for his own purposes.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,153
    edited October 2021
    It's not just Covid we should be worrying about, Flu is going to potentially be a big problem this winter.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58862920

    "The UK is facing an uncertain winter with the spread of coronavirus and the flu, the head of the Health Security Agency Jenny Harries has said. People are at "more significant risk of death and of serious illness if they are co-infected" with both viruses, she told the BBC."

    "Flu kills about 11,000 people on average every winter in England and during the last bad flu winter of 2017-18 the toll was more than double that - with more than 300 deaths a day during the peak. Research shows those infected with both viruses are more than twice as likely to die as someone with Covid alone"
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,421
    Interesting piece in the Guardian that's based on this work by the King's Fund.

    The focus, surprise surprise, is on rich v poor, comparing Westminster with Blackpool. But this got my spidey senses tingling, so I went got the data from the ONS myself and plotted the two sets of data for males...

    image

    And guess what? The big story is the one buried in the piece. London boroughs - including poorer ones - have experienced pretty big increases in life expectancy. Wealth is probably part of the equation, but the London figures put a question mark on this whole thing. To what extent is this simply caused by population churn? Are the oldies that have stayed in London disproportionately healthier than the ones that sold up and left? Possibly. Alternatively, there is something going on and it may be that London (rather than rich places) is better served by the NHS.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,712
    edited October 2021
    kinabalu said:

    If you're going to resort to trolling, Philip, you'll be ignored and that won't be on me or anybody else, it'll be 100% on you.
    Stop winding him up. It's "up to", or even "because of", not "on".
    As you well know.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,322
    edited October 2021
    CatMan said:

    It's not just Covid we should be worrying about, Flu is going to potentially be a big problem this winter.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58862920

    "The UK is facing an uncertain winter with the spread of coronavirus and the flu, the head of the Health Security Agency Jenny Harries has said. People are at "more significant risk of death and of serious illness if they are co-infected" with both viruses, she told the BBC."

    "Flu kills about 11,000 people on average every winter in England and during the last bad flu winter of 2017-18 the toll was more than double that - with more than 300 deaths a day during the peak. Research shows those infected with both viruses are more than twice as likely to die as someone with Covid alone"

    We’ll see. I have no issue with caution, and public health officials are right to be concerned, but we also need a bit of balance. By a long stretch, most people in the U.K. won’t die of Covid or flu this winter. Life in most places is back to normal. I attended a packed toy and train fair today. Minimal mask wearing, but no problem to either do it or not. I’m sure the nhs is having it tough in places. It’s going to carry on being tough. But the human condition is such that we adapt. So 100+ deaths a day becomes accepted, as has 35,000 cases. We also don’t cope with continual doom. We make jokes. We laugh. Ask any policeman who’s attended fatalities. Ask soldiers who have fought. We make jokes and laugh, because we have too. Focus on the negative too much and you end up on pb all them...
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    MaxPB said:

    In what way was the Dominic Grieve crew moderate? They were extreme EUphiles to the point of being a fifth column within the governing party to block the national interest in favour of a foreign party.
    National interest was to avoid a no deal . Grieve and the others were thrown out by Bozo because they were trying to stop a no deal.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 1,254
    Leon said:

    So, the GOP are just like the 2nd vote "People's vote" Remoaners, then

    Like Keir Starmer?

    Trying to overturn an election just because they didn't like the result. There is not a whit of difference between these idiot GOP guys, and, say, Mr Alistair Meeks. On any Lib Dem. Or any of those fuckers that marched on Westminster

    You missed out "SNP-types" but it's a well made point
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,674
    Leon said:

    So, the GOP are just like the 2nd vote "People's vote" Remoaners, then

    Like Keir Starmer?

    Trying to overturn an election just because they didn't like the result. There is not a whit of difference between these idiot GOP guys, and, say, Mr Alistair Meeks. On any Lib Dem. Or any of those fuckers that marched on Westminster

    Totally agree. Some people just can't accept election results. In 2016 it was the Dems with Hillary getting beaten by Trump and remainers not accepting the referendum result. In 2020 it was Trump supporters trying to overturn the legitimate result of the US election. The Trump people are worse because they stormed the Capitol building and tried to intimidate elected representatives. I went to a couple of remainer marches with some friends just to see what they were like, it was a fairly friendly bunch and I can't imagine any of them would try and breach the house of commons.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,674
    nico679 said:

    National interest was to avoid a no deal . Grieve and the others were thrown out by Bozo because they were trying to stop a no deal.
    Lol, you really are deluded if you believe half the bullshit you write. They were trying to stop Brexit from ever happening, some were trying to use legalistic mechanisms to do it without having a second vote. They were acting to overturn a democratic mandate, they are no better than those republicans trying to stop Biden being sworn in as POTUS.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,976

    I always thought Kwasi was one of the more sensible ones of this shower of ****s. I wonder if you're a member of such a government that it's just inevitable that you go native on the perpetual lying thing?

    Sam Coates Sky
    @SamCoatesSky
    ·
    9h
    Shortly after Kwasi Kwarteng says he’s engaging with Treasury over ways they can help industry, a Treasury source said:

    “This is not the first time the BEIS secretary has made things up in interviews. To be crystal clear the treasury are not involved in any talks”

    Well its just political.infighting.. it happensbin all Govts you know. Brown and the truth were unknown to one another. Ditto Blair Cameron May Johnson. They all lie.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,712
    edited October 2021
    MaxPB said:

    In what way was the Dominic Grieve crew moderate? They were extreme EUphiles to the point of being a fifth column within the governing party to block the national interest in favour of a foreign party.
    Too right, all those 21 Tories who Boris expelled from the parliamentary party for voting against a no-deal Brexit. Grieve, Clarke, Hammond, Soames, Gauke, Letwin, Gyimah, Stewart, Burt, Spelman and so on.

    Extremists, the lot of them. Beyond the pale. Bloody one-nation Tories - boot them out, I say.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49563357
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    rpjs said:

    Fair enough! Although I don’t think most
    of the progressives would really pass muster as socialists under any reasonable definition of the term.

    I think Schumer is pretty safe. He’s the incumbent and works hard to maintain a prominent profile: every Sunday he mounts a new initiative which is always covered by the local media, and I think AOC is too left-wing to win the primary across the whole state, although she would probably win the general, so long as the Republicans don’t run a crazy.
    Yes, it's a bit hard to do a neat cut across because the American system is different but, definitely on cultural issues, they would be considered on the left of the Labour party here. When it comes to taxation, I suspect they would be happy with corporates paying a bit more as long as they supported the agenda.

    Re Schumer, AOC did break with the rest of the Squad when she abstained, rather than vote against, the funding of Iron Dome to Israel, which suggests she is thinking about how things are perceived in the state primaries.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,664
    nico679 said:

    National interest was to avoid a no deal . Grieve and the others were thrown out by Bozo because they were trying to stop a no deal.
    Grieve and co were moderates in the sense that their policies - stay in EU - were (and are) centrist policies well within the range of social democratic norms. As is Brexit. The whole thing was (unusually) a genuine non confected row about principle between moderates. Millions of people on both sides can't see this, and pretend that the other lot are extreme (Mr Meeks was an egregious example).

    What was not moderate, and unusual among moderates, was the tactics used to subvert a referendum. That had every hallmark of zealotry. I am pretty sure that they all now realise that 100% of the effort should have gone into agreeing a moderate Brexit line, like 'Norway for now' or 'stay in customs union and align with single market rules from outside' etc. Moderates failure to agree, while looking as if they were Trumpian about democracy, was and is remarkable.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    CatMan said:

    It's not just Covid we should be worrying about, Flu is going to potentially be a big problem this winter.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58862920

    "The UK is facing an uncertain winter with the spread of coronavirus and the flu, the head of the Health Security Agency Jenny Harries has said. People are at "more significant risk of death and of serious illness if they are co-infected" with both viruses, she told the BBC."

    "Flu kills about 11,000 people on average every winter in England and during the last bad flu winter of 2017-18 the toll was more than double that - with more than 300 deaths a day during the peak. Research shows those infected with both viruses are more than twice as likely to die as someone with Covid alone"

    Wasn't it the case that no one in the whole country got flu last year?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,559
    MaxPB said:

    Totally agree. Some people just can't accept election results. In 2016 it was the Dems with Hillary getting beaten by Trump and remainers not accepting the referendum result. In 2020 it was Trump supporters trying to overturn the legitimate result of the US election. The Trump people are worse because they stormed the Capitol building and tried to intimidate elected representatives. I went to a couple of remainer marches with some friends just to see what they were like, it was a fairly friendly bunch and I can't imagine any of them would try and breach the house of commons.
    No, it was the pro-hunting crowd that breached the House of Commons.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,099
    MaxPB said:

    Totally agree. Some people just can't accept election results. In 2016 it was the Dems with Hillary getting beaten by Trump and remainers not accepting the referendum result. In 2020 it was Trump supporters trying to overturn the legitimate result of the US election. The Trump people are worse because they stormed the Capitol building and tried to intimidate elected representatives. I went to a couple of remainer marches with some friends just to see what they were like, it was a fairly friendly bunch and I can't imagine any of them would try and breach the house of commons.
    So you 'totally agree' with @Leon who says the 'the GOP are just like the 2nd vote People's vote Remoaners'...

    ...and yet you say that 'the Trump people are worse because they stormed the Capitol building and tried to intimidate elected representatives'.

    I can see you've really thought that through.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    MaxPB said:

    Lol, you really are deluded if you believe half the bullshit you write. They were trying to stop Brexit from ever happening, some were trying to use legalistic mechanisms to do it without having a second vote. They were acting to overturn a democratic mandate, they are no better than those republicans trying to stop Biden being sworn in as POTUS.
    The fact you compared the January 6th attack on Congress with events in the U.K. parliament disqualifies you from making further comments as you’re clearly delusional !

  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    MrEd said:

    Yes, it's a bit hard to do a neat cut across because the American system is different but, definitely on cultural issues, they would be considered on the left of the Labour party here. When it comes to taxation, I suspect they would be happy with corporates paying a bit more as long as they supported the agenda.

    Re Schumer, AOC did break with the rest of the Squad when she abstained, rather than vote against, the funding of Iron Dome to Israel, which suggests she is thinking about how things are perceived in the state primaries.
    Yeah, that alone is likely to preclude AOC from winning any state-wide vote. The New York Jewish vote, which skews Democratic, may not necessarily agree with everything that Israel does but they do not countenance anything that might affect Israel’s security.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,674

    Too right, all those 21 Tories who Boris expelled from the parliamentary party for voting against a no-deal Brexit. Grieve, Clarke, Hammond, Soames, Gauke, Letwin, Gyimah, Stewart, Burt, Spelman and so on.

    Extremists, the lot of them. Beyond the pale. Bloody one-nation Tories - boot them out, I say.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49563357
    And yet, after kicking them all out we've got a very comprehensive trade deal with the EU. So what were they all voting against? They were trying to overturn a democratic mandate, nothing more, nothing less. They are no better than GOP politicians trying to deny Biden the presidency.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,712
    tlg86 said:

    Interesting piece in the Guardian that's based on this work by the King's Fund.

    The focus, surprise surprise, is on rich v poor, comparing Westminster with Blackpool. But this got my spidey senses tingling, so I went got the data from the ONS myself and plotted the two sets of data for males...

    image

    And guess what? The big story is the one buried in the piece. London boroughs - including poorer ones - have experienced pretty big increases in life expectancy. Wealth is probably part of the equation, but the London figures put a question mark on this whole thing. To what extent is this simply caused by population churn? Are the oldies that have stayed in London disproportionately healthier than the ones that sold up and left? Possibly. Alternatively, there is something going on and it may be that London (rather than rich places) is better served by the NHS.

    From that graph, it looks to me like the average remainer lives longer than the average leaver. :)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,056
    edited October 2021
    algarkirk said:

    Grieve and co were moderates in the sense that their policies - stay in EU - were (and are) centrist policies well within the range of social democratic norms. As is Brexit. The whole thing was (unusually) a genuine non confected row about principle between moderates. Millions of people on both sides can't see this, and pretend that the other lot are extreme (Mr Meeks was an egregious example).

    What was not moderate, and unusual among moderates, was the tactics used to subvert a referendum. That had every hallmark of zealotry. I am pretty sure that they all now realise that 100% of the effort should have gone into agreeing a moderate Brexit line, like 'Norway for now' or 'stay in customs union and align with single market rules from outside' etc. Moderates failure to agree, while looking as if they were Trumpian about democracy, was and is remarkable.

    While I don't really agree with the final point about democracy, I do think this is overall correct. I think people get a bit worked up about the word extreme, when it can mean different things in different contexts. Some of those expelled were not extreme in any sense, they did just oppose one particular policy even as they had in fact made some compromises with their own preferred options, whilst others really were politically extreme (even if their policies were not) in resisting any attempt at compromise, and instead fighting tooth and nail to win all.

    They were entitled to do so, but it was an extreme position for that political debate, and then it blew up in theri faces. Others were caught in the crossfire of that when it got to the no deal debate, which is why most of those later came back. My objection is how Grieve is taken as illustrative of them all, when in fact he was among the most extreme, with his intellect brandished by others as if that prevented his position being an extreme one.

    I don't know why that seems to sit so poorly with people. It's quite possible for someone to be extremist in context.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,322
    isam said:

    Wasn't it the case that no one in the whole country got flu last year?
    Pretty much. Social distancing, working from home and masks seem to work for respiratory infections...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,913
    edited October 2021
    MrEd said:

    I spoke to somebody last night whose son is transitioning. He said the worst part was that their child was now of the view that they had never had any happy moments pre-transition and all they had were unhappy memories. It was apparently very hard on their brother who had in his own mind happy memories of times shared together.

    That's truly sad. I have just spent a lovely day with my older daughter (15)

    We went to Waltham Abbey just for the "laughs". Never been to Chingford before, my God it is as gorgeous as I expected. Hmm

    But Waltham Abbey? Exquisite. A small golden flint and limestone box of history, with 7th century elements and the grave of Harold II of England, who lost it all at Hastings.

    MARVELLOUS

    The laughter of your kids = happiness. In the purest form

    I feel for your friend's family
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,284

    From that graph, it looks to me like the average remainer lives longer than the average leaver. :)
    That's not all that surprising, is it?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    isam said:

    Wasn't it the case that no one in the whole country got flu last year?
    It was something very close to it, which is why a lot of medics are so concerned about flu this time, of course. Reduction in natural immunity plus greater difficulty in guessing what strains will need to be protected against by vaccination.

    OTOH a lot of the very frail people who would've got very ill and probably died in this year's flu season are already dead from Covid, so the flu massacre might not be as great as feared. We shall see.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,674

    From that graph, it looks to me like the average remainer lives longer than the average leaver. :)
    Yes, because the average remainer was higher up the income scale than the average leaver. That's hardly rocket science.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,712
    MaxPB said:

    And yet, after kicking them all out we've got a very comprehensive trade deal with the EU. So what were they all voting against? They were trying to overturn a democratic mandate, nothing more, nothing less. They are no better than GOP politicians trying to deny Biden the presidency.
    No, they were voting against "no deal".
    But my main point is that the people I listed can't in any real definition be described as 'extremists'. Solid Tories, every one of them.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,674
    pigeon said:

    It was something very close to it, which is why a lot of medics are so concerned about flu this time, of course. Reduction in natural immunity plus greater difficulty in guessing what strains will need to be protected against by vaccination.

    OTOH a lot of the very frail people who would've got very ill and probably died in this year's flu season are already dead from Covid, so the flu massacre might not be as great as feared. We shall see.
    It could go either way. I think this will be the worst winter for COVID and it won't really be all that bad anyway. I look forwards to the day that we stop reporting daily statistics for it.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,712
    MaxPB said:

    Yes, because the average remainer was higher up the income scale than the average leaver. That's hardly rocket science.
    Yes, I was jesting, as I thought was clear from my emoji.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    MaxPB said:

    And yet, after kicking them all out we've got a very comprehensive trade deal with the EU. So what were they all voting against? They were trying to overturn a democratic mandate, nothing more, nothing less. They are no better than GOP politicians trying to deny Biden the presidency.
    You really are talking nonsense and are trying to re-write history . Many of those on the list did not support a second ref or any sorts of actions that would overturn the result but wanted to ensure that the country left with a deal . They sacrificed their careers because of that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    Leon said:

    That's truly sad. I have just spent a lovely day with my older daughter (15)

    We went to Waltham Abbey just for the "laughs". Never been to Chingford before, my God it is as gorgeous as I expected. Hmm

    But Waltham Abbey? Exquisite. A small golden flint and limestone box of history, with 7th century elements and the grave of Harold II of England, who lost it all at Hastings.

    MARVELLOUS

    The laughter of your kids = happiness. In the purest form

    I feel for your friend's family
    Glad you had a good day.

    Waltham Abbey is the poorest part of Epping Forest district but yes the area around the Abbey itself is well worth a visit. There is though a pie ship David Beckham has frequented apparently, not that I have ever been
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,099
    tlg86 said:

    Interesting piece in the Guardian that's based on this work by the King's Fund.

    The focus, surprise surprise, is on rich v poor, comparing Westminster with Blackpool. But this got my spidey senses tingling, so I went got the data from the ONS myself and plotted the two sets of data for males...

    image

    And guess what? The big story is the one buried in the piece. London boroughs - including poorer ones - have experienced pretty big increases in life expectancy. Wealth is probably part of the equation, but the London figures put a question mark on this whole thing. To what extent is this simply caused by population churn? Are the oldies that have stayed in London disproportionately healthier than the ones that sold up and left? Possibly. Alternatively, there is something going on and it may be that London (rather than rich places) is better served by the NHS.

    Yes that is interesting. Well done on taking the time to do that.

    Hard to read from the graph but has life expectancy actually gone down in Ceredigion?
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    The worries that you mention TSE have substance.

    I believe it is often the case that an "attack monkey" will have the advantage in that his quarry cannot understand how his brain twists the truth and breaks convention.

    It seems to me that the core of fascism is KNOWING what is right and breaking any rule to make it happen.

    Can SeaShantyIrish or somebody else tell me whether the Democrats are waking up?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,099
    HYUFD said:

    Glad you had a good day.

    Waltham Abbey is the poorest part of Epping Forest district but yes the area around the Abbey itself is well worth a visit. There is though a pie ship David Beckham has frequented apparently, not that I have ever been
    I love the idea of a pie ship. That really floats my boat!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,674

    No, they were voting against "no deal".
    But my main point is that the people I listed can't in any real definition be described as 'extremists'. Solid Tories, every one of them.
    No, they were voting against implementation of Brexit. All of them were blocking a democratic mandate. They all did what the Trump republicans tried to do. We correctly labelled them as traitors and seditionists in January when they tried to overthrow the duly elected government. These extremists are no different.

    From your perspective the difference is that you supported their aims in blocking Brexit so you see them as moderate or something other than traitors. Very much like those Trump supporters who see those GOP politicians that tried to block Biden as heroes.
  • From that graph, it looks to me like the average remainer lives longer than the average leaver. :)
    Once BJ & Co have worked their magic, remainers' & brexiteers' life expectancies will be a lot closer.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,831

    I love the idea of a pie ship. That really floats my boat!
    Or sinks it
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    MaxPB said:

    It could go either way. I think this will be the worst winter for COVID and it won't really be all that bad anyway. I look forwards to the day that we stop reporting daily statistics for it.
    On the one hand, about the only good thing about a nasty flu season is that the death stats will put Covid in the shade, which will help people get used to the idea of it being just one more hazard we have to learn to live with. And yes, if we're lucky, the daily publication of stats for it that still gets regurgitated on the evening news will be quietly dumped.

    On the other, it's bound to be the cause of one last concerted effort by the ISAGE types to try to cajole the Government into stapling masks to our faces for the rest of our lives.

    I remain reasonably confident that the Government won't start collapsing back into restrictions - it has too much of what's left of its political capital on the line over this - but we're not entirely out of the woods until next Spring.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,913
    MaxPB said:

    No, they were voting against implementation of Brexit. All of them were blocking a democratic mandate. They all did what the Trump republicans tried to do. We correctly labelled them as traitors and seditionists in January when they tried to overthrow the duly elected government. These extremists are no different.

    From your perspective the difference is that you supported their aims in blocking Brexit so you see them as moderate or something other than traitors. Very much like those Trump supporters who see those GOP politicians that tried to block Biden as heroes.
    The inability of "2nd vote" Remoaners to see themselves in the anti-democrat mirror of GOP election-cancellers is quite something

    They are Caliban in the Tempest. They cannot accept the hideous gargoyle that stares back at them
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,674
    nico679 said:

    You really are talking nonsense and are trying to re-write history . Many of those on the list did not support a second ref or any sorts of actions that would overturn the result but wanted to ensure that the country left with a deal . They sacrificed their careers because of that.
    They wanted to lock the UK into neverending purgatory of not being able to leave. Ultimately their actions were self defeating and their treachery led to a diamond hard Brexit which has seen the UK exit all spheres of EU influence. It's a story worthy of a movie, looking into their bungling incompetence and political miscalculation of underestimating the will to leave.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,712
    MaxPB said:

    No, they were voting against implementation of Brexit. All of them were blocking a democratic mandate. They all did what the Trump republicans tried to do. We correctly labelled them as traitors and seditionists in January when they tried to overthrow the duly elected government. These extremists are no different.

    From your perspective the difference is that you supported their aims in blocking Brexit so you see them as moderate or something other than traitors. Very much like those Trump supporters who see those GOP politicians that tried to block Biden as heroes.
    Wrong. I didn't support them. They're Tories. I never support Tories.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    MaxPB said:

    No, they were voting against implementation of Brexit. All of them were blocking a democratic mandate. They all did what the Trump republicans tried to do. We correctly labelled them as traitors and seditionists in January when they tried to overthrow the duly elected government. These extremists are no different.

    From your perspective the difference is that you supported their aims in blocking Brexit so you see them as moderate or something other than traitors. Very much like those Trump supporters who see those GOP politicians that tried to block Biden as heroes.
    Leaving with a deal was Brexit as promised by all the Leave campaigners . Vote Leave wouldn’t have won if the campaign was to leave with no trade deal .
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,674

    Wrong. I didn't support them. They're Tories. I never support Tories.
    I didn't say that, maybe you need glasses. I said you supported their aims, you've said many times that you'd support the referendum result being overturned.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,674
    nico679 said:

    Leaving with a deal was Brexit as promised by all the Leave campaigners . Vote Leave wouldn’t have won if the campaign was to leave with no trade deal .
    Ok, what of it, we left with a deal? I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,470
    On Topic -

    Trumpets have gone deep in the Republican party. Unlike the MoaMentum types, who never thought to actually *work* at their takeover, the Trumpets have taken every office at every level, they could. Dislodging them now may well be impossible.

    Which has implication for the Republican convention - very hard to see how they can manoeuvre against Trump now.

    Semi-On-Topic -

    The whole BREXIT = Trump thing is a comfort blanket for Remainers. "One day, everyone will wake up and suddenly we will be back in M. Barniers arms.... the sun will shine, the birds will sing again"

    The questions that lost the referendum need to have answers before you can Rejoin. And saying that there were no questions or that all the questions are illegitimate is not the answer.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,421
    edited October 2021

    Yes that is interesting. Well done on taking the time to do that.

    Hard to read from the graph but has life expectancy actually gone down in Ceredigion?
    No, everywhere has gone up, but Ceredigion had the smallest increase:

    Area name, Increase
    Ceredigion: 0.47
    Lincoln: 0.91
    Oadby and Wigston: 1.17
    Burnley: 1.31
    Scarborough: 1.34
    Brentwood: 1.41
    Bridgend: 1.45
    Nuneaton and Bedworth: 1.51
    Castle Point: 1.54
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,470
    UK cases by specimen date

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,470
    UK cases by specimen date and scaled to 100K

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,470
    UK local R

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,470
    UK case summary

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  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,613

    I love the idea of a pie ship. That really floats my boat!
    Is it puff or shortcrust pastry? Or mash? We should be told.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,913
    nico679 said:

    Leaving with a deal was Brexit as promised by all the Leave campaigners . Vote Leave wouldn’t have won if the campaign was to leave with no trade deal .
    There were no ironclad "promises" - by either side. Remain could not promise there would never be an EU army or EU debt pooling or EU whatever, because the EU evolves, and, also many of them disagreed on these details. Leave could not promise retained Single Market membership or a precise trade agreement or whatever, because situations evolve and, also, many of them disagreed on these details

    (I was a Leaver that wanted EFTA/EEA for ten years as we worked out our future)

    Neither side could guarantee anything, you were basically punting on a concept. In or Out. Tha's it. But the one things both sides did agree on was this: the vote would absolutely be respected. If we vote Leave we Leave. As David Cameron, prime minister, said himself, famously

    Here you go. Warch

    "It will be the final decision. The biggest of our lifetimes. In or out. When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, if we vote to Leave, then we will Leave"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUsKWsPcRXE

    Yet the Remainers suddenly wanted to cancel the 17.4m Leave votes, because they didn't like the result, they hated losing.

    They are no better than GOP Trumpites who want to cancel democracy in the USA
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,470
    UK hospitals

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This discussion has been closed.