Crosby is right and Warsi is wrong. The Tories don't need EM votes to win the election.
Warsi saying EM is code for Muslim, and Crosby saying EM is also code for Muslim. Crosby is right, the Tories don't need to adjust the message to attract Muslim votes as it will repel more of their voter base than it will attract Muslims. Getting other BME votes is well within the realm of possibility with a low tax message.
Do moslems like higher taxes?
No idea, but changing the Tory message on Israel and softening on Iraq would repel more natural Tories than attract Muslims. Other BME voters won't be moved by any changes in these policies. I think that a harder policy in Iraq that includes air strikes would help win votes in Hendon, Golders Green, Harrow and Southall. Muslims will never vote Tory changing the message and policy to attract those votes will only ever be a vote loser for them and Warsi is kidding herself if she thinks this will ever change.
Some Moslems do vote Tory. Others don't. Many don't vote at all. I doubt there's many votes in bombing Iraq, even though it may be necessary.
I think there are votes to be lost in going easy on Hamas and ISIL though which is clearly what Warsi is implying they should do to attract Muslim votes.
No-one is going easy on Hamas. What some people are doing is wondering whether the Israeli response to Hamas provocation is proportionate. It is possible that they are doing this not to win Moslem votes, but because the carnage in Gaza worries them, not least because it will have the effect of making Israel less secure. As I understand it the Indian government has recently supported calls for a UN investigation of Israeli actions in Gaza - and, as you know, Modi has been very supportive of Israel.
Miliband is not supporting Hamas. That's a pretty vile thing to say.
Maybe. But it will probably be said a number of times in the run up to 2015. UKIP has been notably silent on what is happening in the middle east.They must be working out how they can best use this to their advantage. And it is very much to their advantage.
Read the threads in the popular newspapers. People are starting to wonder, however irrationally, if ISIS could happen in Britain.
Oh max do shut up. Muslims in this country and elsewhere aren't going to be raising Jihad flags in any number. Its just a few attention seekers.
Anyway - can we establish that ethnic minority voters does not equal just muslims. Plenty of Indian and black voters that the Tories are like kryptonite to.
That you think it is a small minority shows how complacent the left is about extremists in Britian.
As for other minorities I am in complete agreement as I have said plenty of times on the website and at meet ups. The Tories need to find a way to reach black and Indian voters. They have made a lot of progress with the latter group already with Cameron and I think they need to do a lot more to appeal to black voters. I just don't believe that Warsi is correct that the Cons should follow Ed Miliband and effectively support Hamas in the Israel/Palestine conflict to woo Muslim voters.
Miliband is not supporting Hamas. That's a pretty vile thing to say. He seems to be saying the same kind of thing as a growing number of Tory MPs.
He is calling for an arms embargo to Israel and for the government to pull our support until they lay down their arms. He has picked his side and that side is the opposite to Israel. However you try and dress it up official Labour policy is to oppose Israel and that means supporting the enemy which is Hamas. That is motivated by holding onto the Muslim vote that they lost in 2005.
No, it is not Labour policy to oppose Israel or to support Hamas. That really is a foolish lie and not one I would expect from you.
Milibands position is going to be motivated by his values - and particularly that of his mother. They have both long campaigned for a secure Palestinian state along a viable secular Jewish state.
As a matter of interest, why do you put 'secular' in front of Jewish, but not in front of Palestinian?
Oh max do shut up. Muslims in this country and elsewhere aren't going to be raising Jihad flags in any number. Its just a few attention seekers.
Anyway - can we establish that ethnic minority voters does not equal just muslims. Plenty of Indian and black voters that the Tories are like kryptonite to.
That you think it is a small minority shows how complacent the left is about extremists in Britian.
As for other minorities I am in complete agreement as I have said plenty of times on the website and at meet ups. The Tories need to find a way to reach black and Indian voters. They have made a lot of progress with the latter group already with Cameron and I think they need to do a lot more to appeal to black voters. I just don't believe that Warsi is correct that the Cons should follow Ed Miliband and effectively support Hamas in the Israel/Palestine conflict to woo Muslim voters.
Miliband is not supporting Hamas. That's a pretty vile thing to say. He seems to be saying the same kind of thing as a growing number of Tory MPs.
He is calling for an arms embargo to Israel and for the government to pull our support until they lay down their arms. He has picked his side and that side is the opposite to Israel. However you try and dress it up official Labour policy is to oppose Israel and that means supporting the enemy which is Hamas. That is motivated by holding onto the Muslim vote that they lost in 2005.
No, it is not Labour policy to oppose Israel or to support Hamas. That really is a foolish lie and not one I would expect from you.
How else would you classify calling for an arms embargo? If that isn't opposition then I don't know what is.
I don't know. When I was growing up I was taught to treat everyone as an individual and to lump people together because of their colour or religion or whatever was just plain wrong. That was on a council estate in Wandsworth.
Now I have so-called progressives like IOS telling me that It is not only right but it is also proper to treat people as homogeneous groups. That all Muslims, for example, think along certain lines and that policies should be tailored to court groups and not people.
IOS may be correct in terms of today's politics but if he is then I am sorry because then we have lost our way. Moreover, I am never going to conform. I refuse to see people grouped by stereotypes, I bloody well will not do it.
One of my clients was chap called Kieran, a fairly successful business man, with a nice house and a very nice family that he worked hard for. He had a lot in common with another client called Max. They thought along very similar lines and had very similar concerns. Kieran is the son of a Ugandan-Asian who arrive in this country with bugger all after being kicked out by Idi Amin. Max is the youngest son of an old English family which has held the same land for centuries.
No. The view that IOS espouses is really no different from that of Hitler and his gang in the twenties and thirties. Once you assign people to groups and stereotype the group then you can start blaming the group and the people stop being people. It is wrong.
Mr. Observer, isn't an arms embargo at least a slight form of opposition to Israel, though?
For me, Southam's comments show the massive problems labour will have in speaking to people it wants to court next year.
Ed wants Israel to disarm, something that would hugely help islamists hamas. Oh but he isn't a supporter of Hamas, oh dear me no. How dare you say such a thing. How vile of you to call a spade a spade.
Don;t you know what it might do to my working class white vote???
Now I have so-called progressives like IOS telling me that It is not only right but it is also proper to treat people as homogeneous groups. That all Muslims, for example, think along certain lines and that policies should be tailored to court groups and not people.
IOS may be correct in terms of today's politics but if he is then I am sorry because then we have lost our way. Moreover, I am never going to conform. I refuse to see people grouped by stereotypes, I bloody well will not do it.
This is OK as long as you don't have to do any kind of political strategy or marketing or other human-related data analysis.
However, if you do, one thing you should be asking is why people of particular ethnicities think on similar lines and have similar concerns to people who vote Conservative, but tend not to vote Conservative themselves. This may be a branding problem - eg they think the Conservatives are hostile to their ethnicity even though they're not really. But it may also be that there are some things that Conservatives, given the underlying values that they presumably share with these voters, are currently doing wrong, and it's people of those ethnicities who are paying attention to it.
A lot of ethnic minorities think the Tories are racist. It's really as simple as that. And their talk about immigration in recent years will probably have only confirmed it -- sure, many EMs will themselves agree there should be strict controls on immigration, but the way the Tories get so demented about it and some of their talk ("go home and face arrest") will carry unpleasant undertones for many. Especially since they're not going to give them the benefit of the doubt because of the Tories' history (Enoch Powell).
It may surprise you but British ethnic minority voters support British interests. The fact you can't see that shows why the Tory party has go so far to go.
Milibands position is going to be motivated by his values - and particularly that of his mother. They have both long campaigned for a secure Palestinian state along a viable secular Jewish state.
As a matter of interest, why do you put 'secular' in front of Jewish, but not in front of Palestinian?
Don't worry, it's just standard leftist double standards, Christian, Jewish and Hindu countries should be secular but when Muslim countries cut off people's hands and stone women for being raped not a word.
Max and IOS say treating people differently because of their race or religion is OK! Stereotyping people on the basis of their race or religion is OK? Really?
Oh max do shut up. Muslims in this country and elsewhere aren't going to be raising Jihad flags in any number. Its just a few attention seekers.
Anyway - can we establish that ethnic minority voters does not equal just muslims. Plenty of Indian and black voters that the Tories are like kryptonite to.
That you think it is a small minority shows how complacent the left is about extremists in Britian.
As for other minorities I am in complete agreement as I have said plenty of times on the website and at meet ups. The Tories need to find a way to reach black and Indian voters. They have made a lot of progress with the latter group already with Cameron and I think they need to do a lot more to appeal to black voters. I just don't believe that Warsi is correct that the Cons should follow Ed Miliband and effectively support Hamas in the Israel/Palestine conflict to woo Muslim voters.
Miliband is not supporting Hamas. That's a pretty vile thing to say. He seems to be saying the same kind of thing as a growing number of Tory MPs.
He is calling for an arms embargo to Israel and for the government to pull our support until they lay down their arms. He has picked his side and that side is the opposite to Israel. However you try and dress it up official Labour policy is to oppose Israel and that means supporting the enemy which is Hamas. That is motivated by holding onto the Muslim vote that they lost in 2005.
No, it is not Labour policy to oppose Israel or to support Hamas. That really is a foolish lie and not one I would expect from you.
How else would you classify calling for an arms embargo? If that isn't opposition then I don't know what is.
So Andrew Mitchell also opposes Israel and supports Hamas, does he?
If he or Miliband or anyone else had been calling for an arms embargo on Israel prior to the Gaza attacks you might have a point. But they weren't. It is the actions in Gaza that have prompted the calls.
Milibands position is going to be motivated by his values - and particularly that of his mother. They have both long campaigned for a secure Palestinian state along a viable secular Jewish state.
As a matter of interest, why do you put 'secular' in front of Jewish, but not in front of Palestinian?
Don't worry, it's just standard leftist double standards, Christian, Jewish and Hindu countries should be secular but when Muslim countries cut off people's hands and stone women for being raped not a word.
Spot on. I guess that's why our leftist government sells arms to Saudi Arabia.
If the Tories want to change this state of affairs it needs do to change a few things about themselves.
Less men, more women - Bring in AWS More ethinic minority MPs A hell of a lot less posh middle aged white people
So at the last Labour leadership election how many female and ethnic minority candidates were there for leader? Excluding Dianne Abbot, who was only sympathy nominated, the Labour line up looked pretty pale, male and stale.
At least the Tories managed a female leader 35 years ago.
I should make it clear that I agree with HurstLlama's general point about the importance of treating people on their own merits and not as part of a group. I am not agreeing that IOS is a Nazi!
But the point he makes is important. It is something that we lose sight of too easily.
It may surprise you but British ethnic minority voters support British interests. The fact you can't see that shows why the Tory party has go so far to go.
Who is this creature #IOS, not tim in disguise I hope? Naw, it can't be, even tim wasn't so blindingly crass.
Oh max do shut up. Muslims in this country and elsewhere aren't going to be raising Jihad flags in any number. Its just a few attention seekers.
Anyway - can we establish that ethnic minority voters does not equal just muslims. Plenty of Indian and black voters that the Tories are like kryptonite to.
That you think it is a small minority shows how complacent the left is about extremists in Britian.
As for other minorities I am in complete agreement as I have said plenty of times on the website and at meet ups. The Tories need to find a way to reach black and Indian voters. They have made a lot of progress with the latter group already with Cameron and I think they need to do a lot more to appeal to black voters. I just don't believe that Warsi is correct that the Cons should follow Ed Miliband and effectively support Hamas in the Israel/Palestine conflict to woo Muslim voters.
Miliband is not supporting Hamas. That's a pretty vile thing to say. He seems to be saying the same kind of thing as a growing number of Tory MPs.
He is calling for an arms embargo to Israel and for the government to pull our support until they lay down their arms. He has picked his side and that side is the opposite to Israel. However you try and dress it up official Labour policy is to oppose Israel and that means supporting the enemy which is Hamas. That is motivated by holding onto the Muslim vote that they lost in 2005.
No, it is not Labour policy to oppose Israel or to support Hamas. That really is a foolish lie and not one I would expect from you.
How else would you classify calling for an arms embargo? If that isn't opposition then I don't know what is.
So Andrew Mitchell also opposes Israel and supports Hamas, does he?
If he or Miliband or anyone else had been calling for an arms embargo on Israel prior to the Gaza attacks you might have a point. But they weren't. It is the actions in Gaza that have prompted the calls.
Yes he does. I support Israel 100% in their fight against extremists and Hamas. The civilian deaths are regrettable, but faced with the alternative requested by Miliband and Mitchell of a global arms embargo and Israel being over run and destroyed by extremists I will always support Israel. This is ablack aand white issue, opposition of Israel's aims and goals amounts to nothing less than support of Hamas and their aim of destroying Israel.
The Tories are heading the way of the Republicans in America. A demographic time bomb is ticking against them. You simply cannot hope to gain a majority without appealing to 10% of the population - and many of the electorate who are friends with and respect that group.
Look at London. The Tories are being squeezed out.
Just like labour with the WWC,If the Ethnic minorities have a problem voting tory because they see them as anti immigrant party or Racist(wrongly) then the WWC is just beginning to have a problem with voting labour on thinking this party doesn't represent them anymore,this belief is growing.
BoJo is someone to project your views onto. Right wingers like him so they assume he thinks the same as they do. But on issues like immigration and the living wage he's on the left of the Tory party.
Everyone likes him. As an entertainer (refrained from saying clown) and breath of fresh air plus huge dose of man-of-the-people common sense dispenser. Erudite, too.
Far far fewer people like him as a politician.
Topping , not everybody finds him entertaining, he is a fanny.
Milibands position is going to be motivated by his values - and particularly that of his mother. They have both long campaigned for a secure Palestinian state along a viable secular Jewish state.
As a matter of interest, why do you put 'secular' in front of Jewish, but not in front of Palestinian?
Don't worry, it's just standard leftist double standards, Christian, Jewish and Hindu countries should be secular but when Muslim countries cut off people's hands and stone women for being raped not a word.
Spot on. I guess that's why our leftist government sells arms to Saudi Arabia.
Which I have consistently opposed. We should not do business with countries that have auh awful human rights records and lamentable rights for women. I find it disgusting that governments, including ours, around the world tolerate the suffering of women in these countries to access OPEC oil.
Milibands position is going to be motivated by his values - and particularly that of his mother. They have both long campaigned for a secure Palestinian state along a viable secular Jewish state.
As a matter of interest, why do you put 'secular' in front of Jewish, but not in front of Palestinian?
Don't worry, it's just standard leftist double standards, Christian, Jewish and Hindu countries should be secular but when Muslim countries cut off people's hands and stone women for being raped not a word.
Spot on. I guess that's why our leftist government sells arms to Saudi Arabia.
Which I have consistently opposed. We should not do business with countries that have auh awful human rights records and lamentable rights for women. I find it disgusting that governments, including ours, around the world tolerate the suffering of women in these countries to access OPEC oil.
As do I. You were making a point about "leftist" hypocrisy though, so I was merely observing that you were making a very selective judgement.
@MaxPB - Mitchell and Miliband are not calling for a perpetual, global arms embargo. Neither are they denying Israel's right to defend itself against attack. Seeing everything in the Middle East through the prism of black and white choices exacerbates problems rather than solves them.
Comments
Secondly there is no verification yet of either bearing in mind the Iraqi government have no control of the territory.
I'd wait before confirming this story is true in totality or in part.
Maybe. But it will probably be said a number of times in the run up to 2015. UKIP has been notably silent on what is happening in the middle east.They must be working out how they can best use this to their advantage. And it is very much to their advantage.
Read the threads in the popular newspapers. People are starting to wonder, however irrationally, if ISIS could happen in Britain.
For me, Southam's comments show the massive problems labour will have in speaking to people it wants to court next year.
Ed wants Israel to disarm, something that would hugely help islamists hamas. Oh but he isn't a supporter of Hamas, oh dear me no. How dare you say such a thing. How vile of you to call a spade a spade.
Don;t you know what it might do to my working class white vote???
It may surprise you but British ethnic minority voters support British interests. The fact you can't see that shows why the Tory party has go so far to go.
I think the Palestinians are just after a state but the avoidance of doubt it should be secular.
If he or Miliband or anyone else had been calling for an arms embargo on Israel prior to the Gaza attacks you might have a point. But they weren't. It is the actions in Gaza that have prompted the calls.
So at the last Labour leadership election how many female and ethnic minority candidates were there for leader? Excluding Dianne Abbot, who was only sympathy nominated, the Labour line up looked pretty pale, male and stale.
At least the Tories managed a female leader 35 years ago.
But the point he makes is important. It is something that we lose sight of too easily.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28730274
Of the top 20 "highest rated" comments, 6 are removed with:
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules
including the highest rated.
I guess the article spurred some strong opinions.
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/the-2014-mid-season-review.html
The most interesting part of writing it was perhaps considering the potential changes to driver lineups next year. Could see many changes.