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The Speccie on the possible implications of BoJo’s comments on the miners – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited August 6 in General
The Speccie on the possible implications of BoJo’s comments on the miners – politicalbetting.com

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  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,632
    First!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566
    Secoind, like the Unionists in Scotland now [just to see if this works - I'm getting odd error messages]
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566
    edited August 6
    FPT
    sarissa said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Some dispute on stirrups, I'd heard it was around 4th century AD China, although it's not guaranteed:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirrup#China_and_Korea

    Mr. Divvie, aye, the Roman cavalry was worse than the Gallic cavalry. And the Numidian cavalry. And the Parthian cavalry.

    Essentially, the Roman cavalry was pretty much the worst in Europe. Maybe the world. It was oddly bad. Not 100% useless but in stark contrast to the all-conquering infantry.

    They used a four-horned saddle that helped to grip the rider and keep him in place.

    Edited extra bit: also worth noting that Roman legions were paired with auxiliaries who furnished a larger number of significantly higher quality horse, which helped offset this weakness.

    Interesting thought experiment:

    If you were sent back in time to an arbitrary date, what invention would you personally be able to invent ahead of its time and procure wealth, status and world domination for yourself? In my case, it's embarrassing how few answers there are. I certainly couldn't teach the bronze age how to smelt iron or make glass. I think the stirrup would be the best I could do. I know in theory how to make gunpowder, but if you can't make guns that doesn't help much. ETA nor if you can't identify or manufacture any of the 3 ingredients.
    The horse collar.
    I'd go for the Arabic numerals, zero, decimal point and double entry book-keeping. And talk to some of the more serious businessmen.

    There was a novel by an American SF writer about someone being transported back intime to Ancient Rome and finding it unexpectedly hard to introduce modern tech ideas for all sorts of reasons. I can't recall the author - Spinrad, Blish, someone of that 1960s-70s era.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,801
    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    edited August 6
    Fifth like the Scottish Liberal Democrats.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,315
    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    And who is the former minister
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,699
    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    Gove will be rubbing his clammy hands.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,607
    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566
    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    Just wait till the Scottish Government delegate the SGP co-conveners as prime participants.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    It’s because he thrives on adulation and struggles when folk see through him.

    The Scots see through him.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    And who is the former minister
    Does it matter? There are dozens to choose from. Such as Mr Mundell senior.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    And who is the former minister
    Don’t ask awkward questions.
  • TresTres Posts: 595
    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    Johnson's gloating tone has cut through I'm afraid.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,315
    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    And who is the former minister
    Does it matter? There are dozens to choose from. Such as Mr Mundell senior.
    And was it Mundell senior

    Anyone who makes such a comment should have the integrity to identify themselves
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,801
    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    12 days I'd a long time for a conference. Plenty of time for things to go wrong.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    And who is the former minister
    Does it matter? There are dozens to choose from. Such as Mr Mundell senior.
    And was it Mundell senior

    Anyone who makes such a comment should have the integrity to identify themselves
    You'd need to condemn almost the entire Johnson administration, given their habit of leaking to the media.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242
    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    I believe at one point there was a suggestion (Allegra?) that there would be torch lit parades to celebrate the opening of the event. Triumph of the nil.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    And who is the former minister
    Does it matter? There are dozens to choose from. Such as Mr Mundell senior.
    It does look suspiciously like a Scot. Apart from Mundell, what other former ministers are there in the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    edited August 6
    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566
    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    12 days I'd a long time for a conference. Plenty of time for things to go wrong.
    And for everyone to catch covid. Not as if Mr Johnson has been showing a sterling example, especially by Scots regulations/guidelines.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    Tres said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    Johnson's gloating tone has cut through I'm afraid.
    Indeed. Often in politics it’s not what you say but the way you say it. Laughing as he said it was very unwise. It’s like his brain realised what his mouth was saying about a second too late.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566
    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    I think the more serious issue, as I suiggested earlier, is the effective discrediting of any serious climate control policies as merely elements of Tory class warfare.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,315

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    And who is the former minister
    Does it matter? There are dozens to choose from. Such as Mr Mundell senior.
    It does look suspiciously like a Scot. Apart from Mundell, what other former ministers are there in the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party?
    And of course this speculation of who it was is a result of someone who is not prepared to say it publicly
  • It is still a bit of a live issue round here.

    When Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield United, Barnsley etc take on Nottingham Forest or Notts County the Nottingham teams are still referred to as the scabs.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    And who is the former minister
    Does it matter? There are dozens to choose from. Such as Mr Mundell senior.
    It does look suspiciously like a Scot. Apart from Mundell, what other former ministers are there in the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party?
    Ms Davidson as was did like to claim that there was such a thing as a HM Loyal Opposition and Shadow Cabinet of Tories at Holyrood, but even if one accepted that arrant fiction, a Shadow Minister does not a Minister make.

    Can't be Mr Gove. But the reference to the 'North' could imply a southron. Who might be worried about the North?
  • @ydoethur

    Another one for the list.

    Samit Patel.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 97,925
    edited August 6
    As for the former Tory minister.

    Ex miner Patrick McLoughlin?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,607
    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    Of course the over 65 CDE vote in the Redwall are just the sort that remember.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    I believe at one point there was a suggestion (Allegra?) that there would be torch lit parades to celebrate the opening of the event. Triumph of the nil.
    Who would be the intrepid female pilot flying the Focke-Wulf helicopter?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    My strong suspicion is that some infantile Conservative staffer cracked this “funny” in Johnson’s presence during a planning meeting in London. Johnson thought it was hilarious and stored it in his peanut brain for future use. I’m sure Carrie would have thought it witty; the Scottish journalist corp didn’t.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    Of course the over 65 CDE vote in the Redwall are just the sort that remember.
    I'm neither CDE nort over 65 - and I remember very, very well.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    My strong suspicion is that some infantile Conservative staffer cracked this “funny” in Johnson’s presence during a planning meeting in London. Johnson thought it was hilarious and stored it in his peanut brain for future use. I’m sure Carrie would have thought it witty; the Scottish journalist corp didn’t.
    Indeed, it's highly significant that a bunch of Unionist newspapers all ran with it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566

    As for the former Tory minister.

    Ex miner Patrick McLoughlin?

    Now that's an interesting thought. Not many miners in Mr Mundell's corner of the world.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,554

    Tres said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    Johnson's gloating tone has cut through I'm afraid.
    Indeed. Often in politics it’s not what you say but the way you say it. Laughing as he said it was very unwise. It’s like his brain realised what his mouth was saying about a second too late.
    He’s getting faster, at least, then.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 651
    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    sarissa said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Some dispute on stirrups, I'd heard it was around 4th century AD China, although it's not guaranteed:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirrup#China_and_Korea

    Mr. Divvie, aye, the Roman cavalry was worse than the Gallic cavalry. And the Numidian cavalry. And the Parthian cavalry.

    Essentially, the Roman cavalry was pretty much the worst in Europe. Maybe the world. It was oddly bad. Not 100% useless but in stark contrast to the all-conquering infantry.

    They used a four-horned saddle that helped to grip the rider and keep him in place.

    Edited extra bit: also worth noting that Roman legions were paired with auxiliaries who furnished a larger number of significantly higher quality horse, which helped offset this weakness.

    Interesting thought experiment:

    If you were sent back in time to an arbitrary date, what invention would you personally be able to invent ahead of its time and procure wealth, status and world domination for yourself? In my case, it's embarrassing how few answers there are. I certainly couldn't teach the bronze age how to smelt iron or make glass. I think the stirrup would be the best I could do. I know in theory how to make gunpowder, but if you can't make guns that doesn't help much. ETA nor if you can't identify or manufacture any of the 3 ingredients.
    The horse collar.
    I'd go for the Arabic numerals, zero, decimal point and double entry book-keeping. And talk to some of the more serious businessmen.

    There was a novel by an American SF writer about someone being transported back intime to Ancient Rome and finding it unexpectedly hard to introduce modern tech ideas for all sorts of reasons. I can't recall the author - Spinrad, Blish, someone of that 1960s-70s era.
    One of the big problems is that even if you know how to make something, you probably don't know how to make the things that make the things that make the thing you want to "invent", to the manufacturing tolerances that allows it to work. And everything else is "already invented".
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    And who is the former minister
    Does it matter? There are dozens to choose from. Such as Mr Mundell senior.
    It does look suspiciously like a Scot. Apart from Mundell, what other former ministers are there in the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party?
    And of course this speculation of who it was is a result of someone who is not prepared to say it publicly
    I’m sure that’s the whole point. A lot of folk want this to firmly establish itself in the zeitgeist. Clarity and straightforward, constructive criticism would defeat that goal.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    12 days I'd a long time for a conference. Plenty of time for things to go wrong.
    And for everyone to catch covid. Not as if Mr Johnson has been showing a sterling example, especially by Scots regulations/guidelines.
    His cheating has been noted.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,607
    edited August 6
    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    I think the more serious issue, as I suiggested earlier, is the effective discrediting of any serious climate control policies as merely elements of Tory class warfare.
    I fear it will be a fiasco, but I hope not. It is too important for party politics.

    Climate Change is going to be the issue of the century. The stories this week of the Canadian "heat dome", failure of the Gulf Stream, and wild fires everywhere are profoundly depressing.

    I think that we have left it too late. I am tempted to get off and see the Arctic and Africa again before the wildlife goes extinct. It is like being on the Titanic with no lifeboats. As the ship sinks we may as well enjoy the bar.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,221

    @ydoethur

    Another one for the list.

    Samit Patel.

    And I thought I had a good knowledge of cricket!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566
    edited August 6
    mwadams said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    sarissa said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Some dispute on stirrups, I'd heard it was around 4th century AD China, although it's not guaranteed:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirrup#China_and_Korea

    Mr. Divvie, aye, the Roman cavalry was worse than the Gallic cavalry. And the Numidian cavalry. And the Parthian cavalry.

    Essentially, the Roman cavalry was pretty much the worst in Europe. Maybe the world. It was oddly bad. Not 100% useless but in stark contrast to the all-conquering infantry.

    They used a four-horned saddle that helped to grip the rider and keep him in place.

    Edited extra bit: also worth noting that Roman legions were paired with auxiliaries who furnished a larger number of significantly higher quality horse, which helped offset this weakness.

    Interesting thought experiment:

    If you were sent back in time to an arbitrary date, what invention would you personally be able to invent ahead of its time and procure wealth, status and world domination for yourself? In my case, it's embarrassing how few answers there are. I certainly couldn't teach the bronze age how to smelt iron or make glass. I think the stirrup would be the best I could do. I know in theory how to make gunpowder, but if you can't make guns that doesn't help much. ETA nor if you can't identify or manufacture any of the 3 ingredients.
    The horse collar.
    I'd go for the Arabic numerals, zero, decimal point and double entry book-keeping. And talk to some of the more serious businessmen.

    There was a novel by an American SF writer about someone being transported back intime to Ancient Rome and finding it unexpectedly hard to introduce modern tech ideas for all sorts of reasons. I can't recall the author - Spinrad, Blish, someone of that 1960s-70s era.
    One of the big problems is that even if you know how to make something, you probably don't know how to make the things that make the things that make the thing you want to "invent", to the manufacturing tolerances that allows it to work. And everything else is "already invented".
    James Blish wrote an intriguing trilogy of SF-theological novels. One of them (Black Easter/Day After Judgement/Faust Aleph-Null) involved black magic, apparently based on the mediaeval grimoires. One of the biggest issues was that one had to make one's own ritual equipment, such as (say) swords, entirely by hand from scratch.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    I believe at one point there was a suggestion (Allegra?) that there would be torch lit parades to celebrate the opening of the event. Triumph of the nil.
    Who would be the intrepid female pilot flying the Focke-Wulf helicopter?
    Gunboats and tanks obligatory.
  • ydoethur said:

    @ydoethur

    Another one for the list.

    Samit Patel.

    And I thought I had a good knowledge of cricket!
    Been watching Samit in tonight's Hundred match and it got me thinking.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    12 days I'd a long time for a conference. Plenty of time for things to go wrong.
    And for everyone to catch covid. Not as if Mr Johnson has been showing a sterling example, especially by Scots regulations/guidelines.
    His cheating has been noted.
    It's interesting - he had to stick to the rules in London. But in Jockland, anything goes ...
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Don't worry, on Sunday I've achieved the motherload.

    A thread that combines Scottish independence and AV.

    Note: I also managed to segue into a discussion about Latin v. Ancient Greek.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 4,260

    Tres said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    Johnson's gloating tone has cut through I'm afraid.
    Indeed. Often in politics it’s not what you say but the way you say it. Laughing as he said it was very unwise. It’s like his brain realised what his mouth was saying about a second too late.
    And the key thing is not what Johnson said today- it's that he keeps saying things like this, and will keep doing it. Because it's part of how he has learned to operate. And whilst each individual gaffe only cuts through a bit with a handful of voters, the combined effect could add up to a lot.

    Talking of which, here's the latest Wikipedia swam graph of the polls;



    The striking thing is how steady the Conservative decline from 44% and 10 points ahead to 40% and 4 points ahead has been.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    12 days I'd a long time for a conference. Plenty of time for things to go wrong.
    And for everyone to catch covid. Not as if Mr Johnson has been showing a sterling example, especially by Scots regulations/guidelines.
    His cheating has been noted.
    It's interesting - he had to stick to the rules in London. But in Jockland, anything goes ...
    Hmm, the Scottish football team say hello with their cheating on the Covid-19 rules.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566
    edited August 6

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Don't worry, on Sunday I've achieved the motherload.

    A thread that combines Scottish independence and AV.

    Note: I also managed to segue into a discussion about Latin v. Ancient Greek.
    Excellent. Did you discuss the merits of the middle voice of the verb in Ancient Greek, vs. the crudity of Latin?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    Of course the over 65 CDE vote in the Redwall are just the sort that remember.
    I'm neither CDE nort over 65 - and I remember very, very well.
    Snap.

    The intentional, single-minded, vicious annihilation of the mining industry in Wales, Scotland and England was *huge*. It dominated the news for months and months on end. There was something primeval and savage about it. It was very public sadomasochism. There was no alternative media either: everybody was forced to observe the slaughter.
  • Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Don't worry, on Sunday I've achieved the motherload.

    A thread that combines Scottish independence and AV.

    Note: I also managed to segue into a discussion about Latin v. Ancient Greek.
    Excellent. Did you discuss the merits of the middle voice of the verb in Ancient Greek, vs. the crudity of Latin?
    Alas no, it was based on what is the correct word to use in a certain situation.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    12 days I'd a long time for a conference. Plenty of time for things to go wrong.
    And for everyone to catch covid. Not as if Mr Johnson has been showing a sterling example, especially by Scots regulations/guidelines.
    His cheating has been noted.
    It's interesting - he had to stick to the rules in London. But in Jockland, anything goes ...
    Hmm, the Scottish football team say hello with their cheating on the Covid-19 rules.
    News to me, I must admit. I've got more sense than to waste time following the Scottish footie team.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    12 days I'd a long time for a conference. Plenty of time for things to go wrong.
    And for everyone to catch covid. Not as if Mr Johnson has been showing a sterling example, especially by Scots regulations/guidelines.
    His cheating has been noted.
    It's interesting - he had to stick to the rules in London. But in Jockland, anything goes ...
    Hmm, the Scottish football team say hello with their cheating on the Covid-19 rules.
    News to me, I must admit. I've got more sense than to waste time following the Scottish footie team.
    In short the Scotland team said Billy Gilmour had no close contact with any of his team mates, which was obvious rubbish.,

    https://news.sky.com/story/euro-2020-what-happens-if-covid-outbreak-hits-squad-and-could-matches-be-abandoned-12339055
  • EPGEPG Posts: 3,716
    I'll believe that Tweet proposition when I see it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    12 days I'd a long time for a conference. Plenty of time for things to go wrong.
    And for everyone to catch covid. Not as if Mr Johnson has been showing a sterling example, especially by Scots regulations/guidelines.
    His cheating has been noted.
    It's interesting - he had to stick to the rules in London. But in Jockland, anything goes ...
    Hmm, the Scottish football team say hello with their cheating on the Covid-19 rules.
    News to me, I must admit. I've got more sense than to waste time following the Scottish footie team.
    In short the Scotland team said Billy Gilmour had no close contact with any of his team mates, which was obvious rubbish.,

    https://news.sky.com/story/euro-2020-what-happens-if-covid-outbreak-hits-squad-and-could-matches-be-abandoned-12339055
    It does seem odd. Butr if PHE were happy ...? They were hardly likely to be Scotland supporters.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    I think the more serious issue, as I suiggested earlier, is the effective discrediting of any serious climate control policies as merely elements of Tory class warfare.
    I fear it will be a fiasco, but I hope not. It is too important for party politics.

    Climate Change is going to be the issue of the century. The stories this week of the Canadian "heat dome", failure of the Gulf Stream, and wild fires everywhere are profoundly depressing.

    I think that we have left it too late. I am tempted to get off and see the Arctic and Africa again before the wildlife goes extinct. It is like being on the Titanic with no lifeboats. As the ship sinks we may as well enjoy the bar.
    I hope the sinking ship has better bands than England’s Eurovision efforts.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,801
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    I think the more serious issue, as I suiggested earlier, is the effective discrediting of any serious climate control policies as merely elements of Tory class warfare.
    I fear it will be a fiasco, but I hope not. It is too important for party politics.

    Climate Change is going to be the issue of the century. The stories this week of the Canadian "heat dome", failure of the Gulf Stream, and wild fires everywhere are profoundly depressing.

    I think that we have left it too late. I am tempted to get off and see the Arctic and Africa again before the wildlife goes extinct. It is like being on the Titanic with no lifeboats. As the ship sinks we may as well enjoy the bar.
    I just wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames (Jim Morrison).
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    12 days I'd a long time for a conference. Plenty of time for things to go wrong.
    And for everyone to catch covid. Not as if Mr Johnson has been showing a sterling example, especially by Scots regulations/guidelines.
    His cheating has been noted.
    It's interesting - he had to stick to the rules in London. But in Jockland, anything goes ...
    London has a proper government.
    The Jocks have a parish council.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,315
    edited August 6
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    I think the more serious issue, as I suiggested earlier, is the effective discrediting of any serious climate control policies as merely elements of Tory class warfare.
    I fear it will be a fiasco, but I hope not. It is too important for party politics.

    Climate Change is going to be the issue of the century. The stories this week of the Canadian "heat dome", failure of the Gulf Stream, and wild fires everywhere are profoundly depressing.

    I think that we have left it too late. I am tempted to get off and see the Arctic and Africa again before the wildlife goes extinct. It is like being on the Titanic with no lifeboats. As the ship sinks we may as well enjoy the bar.
    If I am being entirely selfish as I have been to both the Artic and Antarctic and Africa as well as many other places and I am so grateful as it is unlikely my wife and I will leave our shores again

    At my sons wedding last week I (77) was talking to the bride's father (68) who is an ex pat and we agreed that no matter what we say and do we are unlikely at our ages to be able to do anything but accept whatever is coming down the line and we agreed we have had such a fortunate life we just count all our blessings every day
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,607

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    Of course the over 65 CDE vote in the Redwall are just the sort that remember.
    I'm neither CDE nort over 65 - and I remember very, very well.
    Snap.

    The intentional, single-minded, vicious annihilation of the mining industry in Wales, Scotland and England was *huge*. It dominated the news for months and months on end. There was something primeval and savage about it. It was very public sadomasochism. There was no alternative media either: everybody was forced to observe the slaughter.
    Indeed, I was a student at the time and made a road trip to Newcastle with some friends mid strike. I vividly remember the tense atmosphere and minibuses of police from the South.

    It wasn't just a matter of economic rationalisation, and certainly not of green politics. It was a deliberate final battle to crush the trade unions, and the miners in particular. Maggie was after all a Minister in Heath's government during the 1970s miners strike. She wanted revenge, and had it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,898

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    I believe at one point there was a suggestion (Allegra?) that there would be torch lit parades to celebrate the opening of the event. Triumph of the nil.
    Those would be rechargeable electric torches presumably?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    12 days I'd a long time for a conference. Plenty of time for things to go wrong.
    And for everyone to catch covid. Not as if Mr Johnson has been showing a sterling example, especially by Scots regulations/guidelines.
    His cheating has been noted.
    It's interesting - he had to stick to the rules in London. But in Jockland, anything goes ...
    Hmm, the Scottish football team say hello with their cheating on the Covid-19 rules.
    Fake news on obscure blog.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,061

    Tres said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    Johnson's gloating tone has cut through I'm afraid.
    Indeed. Often in politics it’s not what you say but the way you say it. Laughing as he said it was very unwise. It’s like his brain realised what his mouth was saying about a second too late.
    And the key thing is not what Johnson said today- it's that he keeps saying things like this, and will keep doing it. Because it's part of how he has learned to operate. And whilst each individual gaffe only cuts through a bit with a handful of voters, the combined effect could add up to a lot.

    Talking of which, here's the latest Wikipedia swam graph of the polls;



    The striking thing is how steady the Conservative decline from 44% and 10 points ahead to 40% and 4 points ahead has been.
    And yet, most ruling parties would donate a kidney to have a decent lead in mid term, and so many leads in a row
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,512
    edited August 6
    Yougov finds voters narrowly disagree with Boris that Britain got an 'early start' on tackling climate change by closing coal mines in the 1980s by 31% to 27%.

    Tory voters agree with the PM's remarks by 35% to 26%, Labour voters disagree with his remarks by 40% to 18%.

    Older voters tend to disagree with the PM, as narrowly do 25 to 49 year olds, 18 to 24s narrowly agree with Boris by 27% to 20%.

    Northerners disagree most with Boris' remarks by 39% to 22%, 37% of Scots also disagree with 25% of Scots backing Boris, those in the Midlands and Wales disagree with the remarks by 30% to 27%, Southerners agree with the PM by 30% to 26% and Londoners are split 27% each.

    Middle class ABC1 voters are also split 29% to 29% for or against the remarks but working class C2DE voters disagree with the PM by 34% to 24%.
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1423664805991362564?s=20

    However most Tory and Labour voters and voters in every region and GB country and across every age group would back closing coal mines if they were still around today, although working class C2DE voters would keep them open by 35% to 33%

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1423664816443600905?s=20
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,061
    Also, does ANYONE really give a f*ck abut some old mines in Scotland?

    1. It's Scotland

    2. It's Scotland, we've always plundered it, then shut it down as and when, it's a colony, that's what they're for

    3. Something else

    4. Oh yes. Mines. These are coal mines, Horrid things. They weren't closing beautiful gardens in the Hebrides
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    Of course the over 65 CDE vote in the Redwall are just the sort that remember.
    I'm neither CDE nort over 65 - and I remember very, very well.
    Snap.

    The intentional, single-minded, vicious annihilation of the mining industry in Wales, Scotland and England was *huge*. It dominated the news for months and months on end. There was something primeval and savage about it. It was very public sadomasochism. There was no alternative media either: everybody was forced to observe the slaughter.
    Indeed, I was a student at the time and made a road trip to Newcastle with some friends mid strike. I vividly remember the tense atmosphere and minibuses of police from the South.

    It wasn't just a matter of economic rationalisation, and certainly not of green politics. It was a deliberate final battle to crush the trade unions, and the miners in particular. Maggie was after all a Minister in Heath's government during the 1970s miners strike. She wanted revenge, and had it.
    Sniggering, infantile Conservative staffers have no comprehension of such matters.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    12 days I'd a long time for a conference. Plenty of time for things to go wrong.
    And for everyone to catch covid. Not as if Mr Johnson has been showing a sterling example, especially by Scots regulations/guidelines.
    His cheating has been noted.
    It's interesting - he had to stick to the rules in London. But in Jockland, anything goes ...
    Hmm, the Scottish football team say hello with their cheating on the Covid-19 rules.
    News to me, I must admit. I've got more sense than to waste time following the Scottish footie team.
    In short the Scotland team said Billy Gilmour had no close contact with any of his team mates, which was obvious rubbish.,

    https://news.sky.com/story/euro-2020-what-happens-if-covid-outbreak-hits-squad-and-could-matches-be-abandoned-12339055
    It does seem odd. Butr if PHE were happy ...? They were hardly likely to be Scotland supporters.
    Think about it, Billy Gilmour was isolated with his team mates and backroom staff and the SFA argued that Gilmour hadn't had close contact with anyone else, it doesn't pass the smell test.

    Anyone who follows football knows how training sessions work, how players spend their down time.

    PHE had no option but to accept the word of the SFA.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,512
    Italian PM Conte elected new leader of Five Star
    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1423746582848102407?s=20
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242
    Thing is with BJ one can fall into a trap (which I've done myself) of thinking that the tin eared, gormless, self interested, shameless liar thing is a strategy and that there's a cunning plan floating around behind the bullshite, however sometimes what you see really is what you're getting. Sadly there seems to be a large minority of English voters who don't even need a cunning plan to make them drop their drawers.

    Vide


  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,061
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    Of course the over 65 CDE vote in the Redwall are just the sort that remember.
    I'm neither CDE nort over 65 - and I remember very, very well.
    Snap.

    The intentional, single-minded, vicious annihilation of the mining industry in Wales, Scotland and England was *huge*. It dominated the news for months and months on end. There was something primeval and savage about it. It was very public sadomasochism. There was no alternative media either: everybody was forced to observe the slaughter.
    Indeed, I was a student at the time and made a road trip to Newcastle with some friends mid strike. I vividly remember the tense atmosphere and minibuses of police from the South.

    It wasn't just a matter of economic rationalisation, and certainly not of green politics. It was a deliberate final battle to crush the trade unions, and the miners in particular. Maggie was after all a Minister in Heath's government during the 1970s miners strike. She wanted revenge, and had it.
    Ridiculous. She didn't want revenge, she wanted victory. She had to prove who ran the country, ultimately. Could a bunch of commie unions hold the whip hand over the nation, as they did to Heath in 73?

    No. She she planned, she stockpiled, she lulled Von Paulus-Scargill into the salient, and then she sent in the crack troops to pincer them. She won

    Revenge was not in her emotional lexicon. Triumph? Yes
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,999
    edited August 6
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    Of course the over 65 CDE vote in the Redwall are just the sort that remember.
    I'm neither CDE nort over 65 - and I remember very, very well.
    Snap.

    The intentional, single-minded, vicious annihilation of the mining industry in Wales, Scotland and England was *huge*. It dominated the news for months and months on end. There was something primeval and savage about it. It was very public sadomasochism. There was no alternative media either: everybody was forced to observe the slaughter.
    Indeed, I was a student at the time and made a road trip to Newcastle with some friends mid strike. I vividly remember the tense atmosphere and minibuses of police from the South.

    It wasn't just a matter of economic rationalisation, and certainly not of green politics. It was a deliberate final battle to crush the trade unions, and the miners in particular. Maggie was after all a Minister in Heath's government during the 1970s miners strike. She wanted revenge, and had it.
    Yes. The idea that closing the remaining coal mines in the 1980s was anything to do with green politics or environmental concerns is a ludicrous rewriting of history. The environmental damage of mining was never mentioned. It was all about economics, with a side dish of destroying the NUM.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    Johnson's gloating tone has cut through I'm afraid.
    Indeed. Often in politics it’s not what you say but the way you say it. Laughing as he said it was very unwise. It’s like his brain realised what his mouth was saying about a second too late.
    And the key thing is not what Johnson said today- it's that he keeps saying things like this, and will keep doing it. Because it's part of how he has learned to operate. And whilst each individual gaffe only cuts through a bit with a handful of voters, the combined effect could add up to a lot.

    Talking of which, here's the latest Wikipedia swam graph of the polls;



    The striking thing is how steady the Conservative decline from 44% and 10 points ahead to 40% and 4 points ahead has been.
    And yet, most ruling parties would donate a kidney to have a decent lead in mid term, and so many leads in a row
    Sean, when was the last time a Unionist party had a decent mid-term lead in Scotland? Organ donation is unnecessary when quiet competence does the trick.

    Latest VI polls:

    Con lead in London 7%
    SNP lead in Edinburgh 22%
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,061
    I'd LOVE to know the per capita spend by HMG and the SG on Union Jacks and Saltires, respectively

    Because, you know, the Sapphic Krankie and Handsy Alex are quite partial to a Saltire


  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    I think the more serious issue, as I suiggested earlier, is the effective discrediting of any serious climate control policies as merely elements of Tory class warfare.
    I fear it will be a fiasco, but I hope not. It is too important for party politics.

    Climate Change is going to be the issue of the century. The stories this week of the Canadian "heat dome", failure of the Gulf Stream, and wild fires everywhere are profoundly depressing.

    I think that we have left it too late. I am tempted to get off and see the Arctic and Africa again before the wildlife goes extinct. It is like being on the Titanic with no lifeboats. As the ship sinks we may as well enjoy the bar.
    I hope the sinking ship has better bands than England’s Eurovision efforts.
    Abide With Me theme tune for Bettertogether II for sure.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    Leon said:

    Also, does ANYONE really give a f*ck abut some old mines in Scotland?

    1. It's Scotland

    2. It's Scotland, we've always plundered it, then shut it down as and when, it's a colony, that's what they're for

    3. Something else

    4. Oh yes. Mines. These are coal mines, Horrid things. They weren't closing beautiful gardens in the Hebrides

    Yes Jim, we feel the love.

    image
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,607
    edited August 6
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    Of course the over 65 CDE vote in the Redwall are just the sort that remember.
    I'm neither CDE nort over 65 - and I remember very, very well.
    Snap.

    The intentional, single-minded, vicious annihilation of the mining industry in Wales, Scotland and England was *huge*. It dominated the news for months and months on end. There was something primeval and savage about it. It was very public sadomasochism. There was no alternative media either: everybody was forced to observe the slaughter.
    Indeed, I was a student at the time and made a road trip to Newcastle with some friends mid strike. I vividly remember the tense atmosphere and minibuses of police from the South.

    It wasn't just a matter of economic rationalisation, and certainly not of green politics. It was a deliberate final battle to crush the trade unions, and the miners in particular. Maggie was after all a Minister in Heath's government during the 1970s miners strike. She wanted revenge, and had it.
    Ridiculous. She didn't want revenge, she wanted victory. She had to prove who ran the country, ultimately. Could a bunch of commie unions hold the whip hand over the nation, as they did to Heath in 73?

    No. She she planned, she stockpiled, she lulled Von Paulus-Scargill into the salient, and then she sent in the crack troops to pincer them. She won

    Revenge was not in her emotional lexicon. Triumph? Yes
    Yes, Scargill was foolish to fall into the trap, but the plan was not just to crush the unions* but to publicly humiliate them, and she did.

    *While the leaders were hard left, the union members were not so much interested in politics as grabbing a better share of the economic benefits of capitalism. Pay rises, secure employment, and the like. The Seventies were a time that the working classes finally got a decent slice of the economic pie, and Britain's Gini coefficient was at its most equal.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    Of course the over 65 CDE vote in the Redwall are just the sort that remember.
    I'm neither CDE nort over 65 - and I remember very, very well.
    Snap.

    The intentional, single-minded, vicious annihilation of the mining industry in Wales, Scotland and England was *huge*. It dominated the news for months and months on end. There was something primeval and savage about it. It was very public sadomasochism. There was no alternative media either: everybody was forced to observe the slaughter.
    Indeed, I was a student at the time and made a road trip to Newcastle with some friends mid strike. I vividly remember the tense atmosphere and minibuses of police from the South.

    It wasn't just a matter of economic rationalisation, and certainly not of green politics. It was a deliberate final battle to crush the trade unions, and the miners in particular. Maggie was after all a Minister in Heath's government during the 1970s miners strike. She wanted revenge, and had it.
    Ridiculous. She didn't want revenge, she wanted victory. She had to prove who ran the country, ultimately. Could a bunch of commie unions hold the whip hand over the nation, as they did to Heath in 73?

    No. She she planned, she stockpiled, she lulled Von Paulus-Scargill into the salient, and then she sent in the crack troops to pincer them. She won

    Revenge was not in her emotional lexicon. Triumph? Yes
    Of course she didn't want revenge on the enemy within.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Johnson really does put his foot in it when he goes to Scotland. He is so obviously a fish out of water there that he cannot resist saying something daft to gain attention.

    This climate conference is going to be popcorn time. 🍿
    12 days I'd a long time for a conference. Plenty of time for things to go wrong.
    And for everyone to catch covid. Not as if Mr Johnson has been showing a sterling example, especially by Scots regulations/guidelines.
    His cheating has been noted.
    It's interesting - he had to stick to the rules in London. But in Jockland, anything goes ...
    Hmm, the Scottish football team say hello with their cheating on the Covid-19 rules.
    News to me, I must admit. I've got more sense than to waste time following the Scottish footie team.
    In short the Scotland team said Billy Gilmour had no close contact with any of his team mates, which was obvious rubbish.,

    https://news.sky.com/story/euro-2020-what-happens-if-covid-outbreak-hits-squad-and-could-matches-be-abandoned-12339055
    It does seem odd. Butr if PHE were happy ...? They were hardly likely to be Scotland supporters.
    Think about it, Billy Gilmour was isolated with his team mates and backroom staff and the SFA argued that Gilmour hadn't had close contact with anyone else, it doesn't pass the smell test.

    Anyone who follows football knows how training sessions work, how players spend their down time.

    PHE had no option but to accept the word of the SFA.
    PHE have more respect for Jocks than you do. Sound chaps.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,932
    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Is the “former minister” someone that Boris threw out of the party? If so, then the description is accurate but misleading
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,061

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    Johnson's gloating tone has cut through I'm afraid.
    Indeed. Often in politics it’s not what you say but the way you say it. Laughing as he said it was very unwise. It’s like his brain realised what his mouth was saying about a second too late.
    And the key thing is not what Johnson said today- it's that he keeps saying things like this, and will keep doing it. Because it's part of how he has learned to operate. And whilst each individual gaffe only cuts through a bit with a handful of voters, the combined effect could add up to a lot.

    Talking of which, here's the latest Wikipedia swam graph of the polls;



    The striking thing is how steady the Conservative decline from 44% and 10 points ahead to 40% and 4 points ahead has been.
    And yet, most ruling parties would donate a kidney to have a decent lead in mid term, and so many leads in a row
    Sean, when was the last time a Unionist party had a decent mid-term lead in Scotland? Organ donation is unnecessary when quiet competence does the trick.

    Latest VI polls:

    Con lead in London 7%
    SNP lead in Edinburgh 22%
    I don't know why you keep referring to me as Sean. Sean who? Connery? The dead Scottish Nationalist who accidentally lived in the Bahamas? Seany Bean, the famous Scottish cannibal who managed to improve his typical Scottish diet by feasting on human brains?

    Who?

    I am not Sean. I am, however, sure that you are Stuart "der Sturmer" Dickson, purveyor of blood and soil ethno-nationalist memes to your fellow Gestapo-Jocks from your tiny bungalow in, er, Sweden
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,512
    edited August 6

    Leon said:

    Also, does ANYONE really give a f*ck abut some old mines in Scotland?

    1. It's Scotland

    2. It's Scotland, we've always plundered it, then shut it down as and when, it's a colony, that's what they're for

    3. Something else

    4. Oh yes. Mines. These are coal mines, Horrid things. They weren't closing beautiful gardens in the Hebrides

    Yes Jim, we feel the love.

    image
    Well 55% of Scots agreed with Jim not you
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242
    edited August 6
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Also, does ANYONE really give a f*ck abut some old mines in Scotland?

    1. It's Scotland

    2. It's Scotland, we've always plundered it, then shut it down as and when, it's a colony, that's what they're for

    3. Something else

    4. Oh yes. Mines. These are coal mines, Horrid things. They weren't closing beautiful gardens in the Hebrides

    Yes Jim, we feel the love.

    image
    Well 55% of Scots agreed with Jim not you
    Any word on those Unionist>Indy swing numbers yet?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,512

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    Johnson's gloating tone has cut through I'm afraid.
    Indeed. Often in politics it’s not what you say but the way you say it. Laughing as he said it was very unwise. It’s like his brain realised what his mouth was saying about a second too late.
    And the key thing is not what Johnson said today- it's that he keeps saying things like this, and will keep doing it. Because it's part of how he has learned to operate. And whilst each individual gaffe only cuts through a bit with a handful of voters, the combined effect could add up to a lot.

    Talking of which, here's the latest Wikipedia swam graph of the polls;



    The striking thing is how steady the Conservative decline from 44% and 10 points ahead to 40% and 4 points ahead has been.
    And yet, most ruling parties would donate a kidney to have a decent lead in mid term, and so many leads in a row
    Sean, when was the last time a Unionist party had a decent mid-term lead in Scotland? Organ donation is unnecessary when quiet competence does the trick.

    Latest VI polls:

    Con lead in London 7%
    SNP lead in Edinburgh 22%
    Unionist total election 2019 54.5%, SNP and Green total 45.5%
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301

    Thing is with BJ one can fall into a trap (which I've done myself) of thinking that the tin eared, gormless, self interested, shameless liar thing is a strategy and that there's a cunning plan floating around behind the bullshite, however sometimes what you see really is what you're getting. Sadly there seems to be a large minority of English voters who don't even need a cunning plan to make them drop their drawers.

    Vide


    They’ve got to sell them to some fud when the butchers have closed down.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,061
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    Of course the over 65 CDE vote in the Redwall are just the sort that remember.
    I'm neither CDE nort over 65 - and I remember very, very well.
    Snap.

    The intentional, single-minded, vicious annihilation of the mining industry in Wales, Scotland and England was *huge*. It dominated the news for months and months on end. There was something primeval and savage about it. It was very public sadomasochism. There was no alternative media either: everybody was forced to observe the slaughter.
    Indeed, I was a student at the time and made a road trip to Newcastle with some friends mid strike. I vividly remember the tense atmosphere and minibuses of police from the South.

    It wasn't just a matter of economic rationalisation, and certainly not of green politics. It was a deliberate final battle to crush the trade unions, and the miners in particular. Maggie was after all a Minister in Heath's government during the 1970s miners strike. She wanted revenge, and had it.
    Ridiculous. She didn't want revenge, she wanted victory. She had to prove who ran the country, ultimately. Could a bunch of commie unions hold the whip hand over the nation, as they did to Heath in 73?

    No. She she planned, she stockpiled, she lulled Von Paulus-Scargill into the salient, and then she sent in the crack troops to pincer them. She won

    Revenge was not in her emotional lexicon. Triumph? Yes
    Yes, Scargill was foolish to fall into the trap, but the plan was not just to crush the unions* but to publicly humiliate them, and she did.

    *While the leaders were hard left, the union members were not so much interested in politics as grabbing a better share of the economic benefits of capitalism. Pay rises, secure employment, and the like. The Seventies were a time that the working classes finally got a decent slice of the economic pie, and Britain's Gini coefficient was at its most equal.
    What an absolute pile of twaddle. The 70s were shite. I was there.

    Good music, granted, but otherwise, relentless shite and national decay. Britain was a morbid pool of feculent matter. We produced nothing, and went on strike to moan about it. It was awful. The mood was remorselessly sour

    You are either too young to remember, too old to think straight, or just fibbing, if you are the right age
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    Of course the over 65 CDE vote in the Redwall are just the sort that remember.
    I'm neither CDE nort over 65 - and I remember very, very well.
    Snap.

    The intentional, single-minded, vicious annihilation of the mining industry in Wales, Scotland and England was *huge*. It dominated the news for months and months on end. There was something primeval and savage about it. It was very public sadomasochism. There was no alternative media either: everybody was forced to observe the slaughter.
    Indeed, I was a student at the time and made a road trip to Newcastle with some friends mid strike. I vividly remember the tense atmosphere and minibuses of police from the South.

    It wasn't just a matter of economic rationalisation, and certainly not of green politics. It was a deliberate final battle to crush the trade unions, and the miners in particular. Maggie was after all a Minister in Heath's government during the 1970s miners strike. She wanted revenge, and had it.
    Ridiculous. She didn't want revenge, she wanted victory. She had to prove who ran the country, ultimately. Could a bunch of commie unions hold the whip hand over the nation, as they did to Heath in 73?

    No. She she planned, she stockpiled, she lulled Von Paulus-Scargill into the salient, and then she sent in the crack troops to pincer them. She won

    Revenge was not in her emotional lexicon. Triumph? Yes
    Get the Kleenex out please Sean darling. You’ve made a little puddle on your nice duvet.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,512
    edited August 6

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Also, does ANYONE really give a f*ck abut some old mines in Scotland?

    1. It's Scotland

    2. It's Scotland, we've always plundered it, then shut it down as and when, it's a colony, that's what they're for

    3. Something else

    4. Oh yes. Mines. These are coal mines, Horrid things. They weren't closing beautiful gardens in the Hebrides

    Yes Jim, we feel the love.

    image
    Well 55% of Scots agreed with Jim not you
    Any word on those Unionist>Indy swing numbers yet?
    No still clearly ahead despite Brexit on the latest poll this summer, yes

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1422473591250169881?s=20
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 940
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    I think the more serious issue, as I suiggested earlier, is the effective discrediting of any serious climate control policies as merely elements of Tory class warfare.
    I fear it will be a fiasco, but I hope not. It is too important for party politics.

    Climate Change is going to be the issue of the century. The stories this week of the Canadian "heat dome", failure of the Gulf Stream, and wild fires everywhere are profoundly depressing.

    I think that we have left it too late. I am tempted to get off and see the Arctic and Africa again before the wildlife goes extinct. It is like being on the Titanic with no lifeboats. As the ship sinks we may as well enjoy the bar.
    The greater, and more immediate threat is to human autonomy, freedom and privacy.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242
    I thought 'visiting professor in philanthropreneurship' was a pisstake, however..

    https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1423698630742007809?s=20
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,442
    edited August 6
    HYUFD said:

    Yougov finds voters narrowly disagree with Boris that Britain got an 'early start' on tackling climate change by closing coal mines in the 1980s by 31% to 27%.

    Tory voters agree with the PM's remarks by 35% to 26%, Labour voters disagree with his remarks by 40% to 18%.

    Older voters tend to disagree with the PM, as narrowly do 25 to 49 year olds, 18 to 24s narrowly agree with Boris by 27% to 20%.

    Northerners disagree most with Boris' remarks by 39% to 22%, 37% of Scots also disagree with 25% of Scots backing Boris, those in the Midlands and Wales disagree with the remarks by 30% to 27%, Southerners agree with the PM by 30% to 26% and Londoners are split 27% each.

    Middle class ABC1 voters are also split 29% to 29% for or against the remarks but working class C2DE voters disagree with the PM by 34% to 24%.
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1423664805991362564?s=20

    However most Tory and Labour voters and voters in every region and GB country and across every age group would back closing coal mines if they were still around today, although working class C2DE voters would keep them open by 35% to 33%

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1423664816443600905?s=20

    Interesting - older voters, working-class voters and Northerners most against - all of them in the Tory base. Middle-class and London voters presumably like the green aspect.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,061
    I have Cornish cousins, of the Nationalist variety (they exist) who blat on about Cornish tin mines "closed by the English" the same way effete, brownshirt Scots like Dickson, Carnyx, Theuniondivvie go on about Scottish coal mines

    Facts: the average life expectancy of a Cornish miner was about 42. They often spent 18 hours underground. Some only saw the sunshine in high summer on one day: Sunday. Their daughters were sent to the mines age ten to sort rocks, as "bal maidens"

    The lament for the mines is pathetic faux working class sentimentality from middle class people, tinged with typical wheedling Celtic self pity. I have seen it in my own people. Time to grow up
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242
    edited August 6
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Also, does ANYONE really give a f*ck abut some old mines in Scotland?

    1. It's Scotland

    2. It's Scotland, we've always plundered it, then shut it down as and when, it's a colony, that's what they're for

    3. Something else

    4. Oh yes. Mines. These are coal mines, Horrid things. They weren't closing beautiful gardens in the Hebrides

    Yes Jim, we feel the love.

    image
    Well 55% of Scots agreed with Jim not you
    Any word on those Unionist>Indy swing numbers yet?
    No still clearly ahead despite Brexit on the latest poll this summer, yes

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1422473591250169881?s=20
    Funny, I recall you crowing about a 0.35 swing to the SCons within the living memory of a Mayfly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,512
    edited August 6

    HYUFD said:

    Yougov finds voters narrowly disagree with Boris that Britain got an 'early start' on tackling climate change by closing coal mines in the 1980s by 31% to 27%.

    Tory voters agree with the PM's remarks by 35% to 26%, Labour voters disagree with his remarks by 40% to 18%.

    Older voters tend to disagree with the PM, as narrowly do 25 to 49 year olds, 18 to 24s narrowly agree with Boris by 27% to 20%.

    Northerners disagree most with Boris' remarks by 39% to 22%, 37% of Scots also disagree with 25% of Scots backing Boris, those in the Midlands and Wales disagree with the remarks by 30% to 27%, Southerners agree with the PM by 30% to 26% and Londoners are split 27% each.

    Middle class ABC1 voters are also split 29% to 29% for or against the remarks but working class C2DE voters disagree with the PM by 34% to 24%.
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1423664805991362564?s=20

    However most Tory and Labour voters and voters in every region and GB country and across every age group would back closing coal mines if they were still around today, although working class C2DE voters would keep them open by 35% to 33%

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1423664816443600905?s=20

    Interesting - older voters, working-class voters and Northerners most against - all of them in the Tory base. Middle-class and London voters presumably like the green aspect.
    As I said earlier today Boris' remarks will not go down well in the Red Wall and clearly they have not, the North, the Midlands and Wales, older voters and C2DE voters all disagree with what he said and they are the core Red Wall demographic.

    The fact they have gone down better with younger voters and voters south of Watford might provide some small comfort to the PM but a lot of Tory MPs in Red Wall seats will be waiting nervously for the next opinion polls
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,061

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Also, does ANYONE really give a f*ck abut some old mines in Scotland?

    1. It's Scotland

    2. It's Scotland, we've always plundered it, then shut it down as and when, it's a colony, that's what they're for

    3. Something else

    4. Oh yes. Mines. These are coal mines, Horrid things. They weren't closing beautiful gardens in the Hebrides

    Yes Jim, we feel the love.

    image
    Well 55% of Scots agreed with Jim not you
    Any word on those Unionist>Indy swing numbers yet?
    No still clearly ahead despite Brexit on the latest poll this summer, yes

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1422473591250169881?s=20
    Funny, I recall you crowing about a 0.35 swing to the SCons within living memory of a Mayfly.
    Yet that's a SIX POINT swing to No

    Why?!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    Charles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Silly season. This is not a three thread issue.

    Is the “former minister” someone that Boris threw out of the party? If so, then the description is accurate but misleading
    Like “Scottish Labour Party” (sic).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,061
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yougov finds voters narrowly disagree with Boris that Britain got an 'early start' on tackling climate change by closing coal mines in the 1980s by 31% to 27%.

    Tory voters agree with the PM's remarks by 35% to 26%, Labour voters disagree with his remarks by 40% to 18%.

    Older voters tend to disagree with the PM, as narrowly do 25 to 49 year olds, 18 to 24s narrowly agree with Boris by 27% to 20%.

    Northerners disagree most with Boris' remarks by 39% to 22%, 37% of Scots also disagree with 25% of Scots backing Boris, those in the Midlands and Wales disagree with the remarks by 30% to 27%, Southerners agree with the PM by 30% to 26% and Londoners are split 27% each.

    Middle class ABC1 voters are also split 29% to 29% for or against the remarks but working class C2DE voters disagree with the PM by 34% to 24%.
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1423664805991362564?s=20

    However most Tory and Labour voters and voters in every region and GB country and across every age group would back closing coal mines if they were still around today, although working class C2DE voters would keep them open by 35% to 33%

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1423664816443600905?s=20

    Interesting - older voters, working-class voters and Northerners most against - all of them in the Tory base. Middle-class and London voters presumably like the green aspect.
    As I said earlier today Boris' remarks will not go down well in the Red Wall and clearly they have not, the North, the Midlands and Wales, older voters and C2DE voters all disagree with what he said and they are the core Red Wall demographic.

    The fact they have gone down better with younger voters and voters south of Watford might provide some small comfort to the PM but a lot of Tory MPs in the Red Wall will be waiting nervously for the next opinion polls
    I don't think anyone gives a fuck about the mines any more, apart from professionally embittered middle class lefties who never went nearer a mine than going to see Billy Elliot at that nice cinema which does banana cake. If there is any polling damage it will be transient

    What could fuck the Tories is the migrants crossing the Channel. Terrible optics. They need to sort
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,301
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    Johnson's gloating tone has cut through I'm afraid.
    Indeed. Often in politics it’s not what you say but the way you say it. Laughing as he said it was very unwise. It’s like his brain realised what his mouth was saying about a second too late.
    And the key thing is not what Johnson said today- it's that he keeps saying things like this, and will keep doing it. Because it's part of how he has learned to operate. And whilst each individual gaffe only cuts through a bit with a handful of voters, the combined effect could add up to a lot.

    Talking of which, here's the latest Wikipedia swam graph of the polls;



    The striking thing is how steady the Conservative decline from 44% and 10 points ahead to 40% and 4 points ahead has been.
    And yet, most ruling parties would donate a kidney to have a decent lead in mid term, and so many leads in a row
    Sean, when was the last time a Unionist party had a decent mid-term lead in Scotland? Organ donation is unnecessary when quiet competence does the trick.

    Latest VI polls:

    Con lead in London 7%
    SNP lead in Edinburgh 22%
    I don't know why you keep referring to me as Sean. Sean who? Connery? The dead Scottish Nationalist who accidentally lived in the Bahamas? Seany Bean, the famous Scottish cannibal who managed to improve his typical Scottish diet by feasting on human brains?

    Who?

    I am not Sean. I am, however, sure that you are Stuart "der Sturmer" Dickson, purveyor of blood and soil ethno-nationalist memes to your fellow Gestapo-Jocks from your tiny bungalow in, er, Sweden
    Yes Sean, I do see the squirrel. It was a lovely fluffy one with a big tail. While we’re waiting for it to reappear, could you possibly facilitate us with an answer:

    When was the last time a Unionist party had a poll lead in Scotland?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,512

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Also, does ANYONE really give a f*ck abut some old mines in Scotland?

    1. It's Scotland

    2. It's Scotland, we've always plundered it, then shut it down as and when, it's a colony, that's what they're for

    3. Something else

    4. Oh yes. Mines. These are coal mines, Horrid things. They weren't closing beautiful gardens in the Hebrides

    Yes Jim, we feel the love.

    image
    Well 55% of Scots agreed with Jim not you
    Any word on those Unionist>Indy swing numbers yet?
    No still clearly ahead despite Brexit on the latest poll this summer, yes

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1422473591250169881?s=20
    Funny, I recall you crowing about a 0.35 swing to the SCons within the living memory of a Mayfly.
    Indeed, there was also a swing from SNP to SCons in a by election yesterday too as well as that 6% swing from Yes to No in the latest hypothetical indyref polling average

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,063
    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    sarissa said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Some dispute on stirrups, I'd heard it was around 4th century AD China, although it's not guaranteed:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirrup#China_and_Korea

    Mr. Divvie, aye, the Roman cavalry was worse than the Gallic cavalry. And the Numidian cavalry. And the Parthian cavalry.

    Essentially, the Roman cavalry was pretty much the worst in Europe. Maybe the world. It was oddly bad. Not 100% useless but in stark contrast to the all-conquering infantry.

    They used a four-horned saddle that helped to grip the rider and keep him in place.

    Edited extra bit: also worth noting that Roman legions were paired with auxiliaries who furnished a larger number of significantly higher quality horse, which helped offset this weakness.

    Interesting thought experiment:

    If you were sent back in time to an arbitrary date, what invention would you personally be able to invent ahead of its time and procure wealth, status and world domination for yourself? In my case, it's embarrassing how few answers there are. I certainly couldn't teach the bronze age how to smelt iron or make glass. I think the stirrup would be the best I could do. I know in theory how to make gunpowder, but if you can't make guns that doesn't help much. ETA nor if you can't identify or manufacture any of the 3 ingredients.
    The horse collar.
    I'd go for the Arabic numerals, zero, decimal point and double entry book-keeping. And talk to some of the more serious businessmen.

    There was a novel by an American SF writer about someone being transported back intime to Ancient Rome and finding it unexpectedly hard to introduce modern tech ideas for all sorts of reasons. I can't recall the author - Spinrad, Blish, someone of that 1960s-70s era.
    You're not thinking of L. Sprague de Camp's Lest Darkness Fall ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,607
    edited August 6
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Not sure. It could do. But the pits closing was approaching 40 years ago. More to the point, no one would turn round now and say “we should have kept them open”.

    I’m a big fan of the view Thatcher should have done more to support the communities when the pits closed. But I think most people in those areas recognise the direction it was heading in and see it now in the past.

    Don’t think this will make any difference at all

    It gives something for 70s and 80s political nostalgics to get erections over, and for poseurs of the 2000s to pretend outrage about something that happened decades ago. That it was unnecessarily foolish of him to give people the chance to be outraged is true though - sure people will get outraged over anything, but he could have avoided it.
    Of course the over 65 CDE vote in the Redwall are just the sort that remember.
    I'm neither CDE nort over 65 - and I remember very, very well.
    Snap.

    The intentional, single-minded, vicious annihilation of the mining industry in Wales, Scotland and England was *huge*. It dominated the news for months and months on end. There was something primeval and savage about it. It was very public sadomasochism. There was no alternative media either: everybody was forced to observe the slaughter.
    Indeed, I was a student at the time and made a road trip to Newcastle with some friends mid strike. I vividly remember the tense atmosphere and minibuses of police from the South.

    It wasn't just a matter of economic rationalisation, and certainly not of green politics. It was a deliberate final battle to crush the trade unions, and the miners in particular. Maggie was after all a Minister in Heath's government during the 1970s miners strike. She wanted revenge, and had it.
    Ridiculous. She didn't want revenge, she wanted victory. She had to prove who ran the country, ultimately. Could a bunch of commie unions hold the whip hand over the nation, as they did to Heath in 73?

    No. She she planned, she stockpiled, she lulled Von Paulus-Scargill into the salient, and then she sent in the crack troops to pincer them. She won

    Revenge was not in her emotional lexicon. Triumph? Yes
    Yes, Scargill was foolish to fall into the trap, but the plan was not just to crush the unions* but to publicly humiliate them, and she did.

    *While the leaders were hard left, the union members were not so much interested in politics as grabbing a better share of the economic benefits of capitalism. Pay rises, secure employment, and the like. The Seventies were a time that the working classes finally got a decent slice of the economic pie, and Britain's Gini coefficient was at its most equal.
    What an absolute pile of twaddle. The 70s were shite. I was there.

    Good music, granted, but otherwise, relentless shite and national decay. Britain was a morbid pool of feculent matter. We produced nothing, and went on strike to moan about it. It was awful. The mood was remorselessly sour

    You are either too young to remember, too old to think straight, or just fibbing, if you are the right age
    I was in America for 5 years from 1975, but there were similar times there. Indeed our container of household belongings sat on the docks in New York for 2 months due to a dock strike.

    But I remember the Seventies well, and we came back every summer. It is though an objective fact that Britain's Gini coefficient was at its most equal in the Seventies.

    https://www.closer.ac.uk/data/gini-coefficient-income-inequality-measure/

    Those were the days that workers finally gained access to the consumer goods that had been the preserve of the middle classes before. Gormley had gained the pay rise that gave miners a much better standard of living, though these good pay rates, pensions and secure employment were all part of the reason that foreign coal was cheaper, and our mines uneconomic.
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