Are we missing the obvious in Batley & Spen – Hancock and a narrowing of the poll gap? – politicalbe

RH1992 said:

MaxPB said:

Lol some wanker from the WHO wants vaccinated populations to keep social distancing and masks. Fuck off mate.

Saw a gleeful tweet from a former associate this morning saying he was happy to be "double masked and double vaxxed" on the Tube with the hashtag #zerocovid.

Needless to say his entire feed is retweets of Pagel and other indy SAGE members and he's been calling for restrictions to be tightened for a few weeks now.

Some people just want us to live like this forever and to hell with the consequences. I saw my grandmother for the first time in 18 months at the weekend and she's noticeably less mobile from not being able to get out and about just to do the shopping. It was quite upsetting to see.

RochdalePioneers said:

eek said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

RochdalePioneers said:

StuartDickson said:

Foxy said:

felix said:

StuartDickson said:

felix said:

Cocky_cockney said:

Mike is right. Labour are value.

It's a risky one though, unlike C&A which felt like one of those golden tips that seemed right: thank you again, Mike: your tip paid for my day at Wimbledon yesterday among many other things!

Peak Boris was May 25th. There is a discernible and definite shift now.

The one thing which might lift the Conservatives back is if England win Euro 2020 in front of a full house at Wembley. Otherwise the tide has turned.

You may be right but the polling evidence really is not there for such a claim. The government has had a rough week or so and the press is hostile but these kind of things often flare up only to fizzle out again. All we need is a Grauniead - ' the day the polls turned' and we head back to square one.

What never fizzles out is Tory sleaze. The events of the last week fit into a recognisable pattern going back many decades.

What the Tories need is a generation of nice people. Good, honest, competent, straightforward, pleasant folk with no “side”. When one looks at the coming generation of young Tories one sees the exact opposite. Tory sleaze is going to be around for at least a half century to come.

No sleaze in the SNP thankfully. Salmond and Sturgeon say Hi..

Sleaze comes when a party is so long in power that they think that they can get away with anything and still get elected.

People like @Big_G_NorthWales will vote for a donkey with a blue rosette, and in Scotland will vote SNP until independence. Only after that will Scottish politics return to competitive parties.

The SNP will wither away post-independence. I, and many other members, will leave and help build new, normal parties. Our goal is for Scotland to be a normal country.

I think the SNP do a (mainly) decent job in government, especially considering they're now in their 4th term. I also think that Scottish independence is inevitable and that I will likely vote for it as the Union is unsustainable.

That is very different from me wanting to become a member of or support the SNP. I hope that independent Scotland would retain its general level of civilisation and decency which has been lost south of the wall, but there are other parties who can deliver that.

Thank you for a fair analysis, and hopefully your vote when the day arrives!

There is nothing inevitable about Scottish Independence however much diehard anti Tories like Rochdale may hope there is

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-shows-drop-for-scottish-independence-support-as-sir-john-curtice-claims-results-shows-cooling-over-uk-split-3287969

It would be insane for both Scotland and the rest of the UK but with Boris as PM it's possible....

He has already cast off Northern Ireland. Protestations about Boris being a unionist have no value when he is delivering anti-union policies. Nor am I obsessed by minutiae poll movements like the Essicks Massiv - this is a long game and the government dilute the arguments for staying every single day.

JohnLilburne said:

kjh said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

StuartDickson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SouthamObserver said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

StuartDickson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

OldKingCole said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

beentheredonethat said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Breaking

Nissan confirm they are to build a 1 billion pound car battery factory in Sunderland

Absolutely coincidental that this announced on by Election Day

I hadn't thought about that but if so good politics

The BBC also says that
'The government is contributing to the cost of the expansion, but a precise figure has not been disclosed.'

Ion other words, a massive handout. Some might call it a bribe.

I am sorry but investing in the future green economy is essential and is actively promoted by all governments

All governments recently signed a “level playing field” treaty, but one of the signatories was crossing their fingers behind their back. Guess which one.

The EU are over and the UK will decide on investments and jobs

Investment decisions will surely be based on access to markets into which to sell, so the EU is not over. It's just that the relationship and dependency is different.

The EU dictating UK investment decisions to the UK government is over

Bollocks. Your BritNat government just signed a “level playing field” treaty that explicitly says the exact opposite.

Maggie must be spinning in her grave that her party has morphed into the party of big government, state subsidy and picking winners. It’ll end in tears… for the taxpayers.

Creating jobs and green investments will end in 'tears' of joy for the taxpayers not pain

So you think civil servants and politicians are best placed to decide what companies produce stuff. Governments should be creating strategic policies (eg for green investment) they should not be perverting the market or deciding who gets the business by giving subsidies. I can't believe a Tory believes this. Why not go the whole hog and nationalise it?

Civil servants and politicians should not be allowed anywhere near business decisions. They bugger it up every time they interfere.

The difference is that there is a political will to move the green agenda faster than the market would led to its own devices

beentheredonethat said:

RH1992 said:

MaxPB said:

Lol some wanker from the WHO wants vaccinated populations to keep social distancing and masks. Fuck off mate.

Saw a gleeful tweet from a former associate this morning saying he was happy to be "double masked and double vaxxed" on the Tube with the hashtag #zerocovid.

Needless to say his entire feed is retweets of Pagel and other indy SAGE members and he's been calling for restrictions to be tightened for a few weeks now.

Some people just want us to live like this forever and to hell with the consequences. I saw my grandmother for the first time in 18 months at the weekend and she's noticeably less mobile from not being able to get out and about just to do the shopping. It was quite upsetting to see.

If you know where he lives, do me a favour and go round and kick him in the bollocks for me. The smug tool.

rottenborough said:

beentheredonethat said:

RH1992 said:

MaxPB said:

Lol some wanker from the WHO wants vaccinated populations to keep social distancing and masks. Fuck off mate.

Saw a gleeful tweet from a former associate this morning saying he was happy to be "double masked and double vaxxed" on the Tube with the hashtag #zerocovid.

Needless to say his entire feed is retweets of Pagel and other indy SAGE members and he's been calling for restrictions to be tightened for a few weeks now.

Some people just want us to live like this forever and to hell with the consequences. I saw my grandmother for the first time in 18 months at the weekend and she's noticeably less mobile from not being able to get out and about just to do the shopping. It was quite upsetting to see.

If you know where he lives, do me a favour and go round and kick him in the bollocks for me. The smug tool.

Jason Groves
@JasonGroves1
·
5m
Boris Johnson all but confirms July 19 reopening is on. Says it is 'ever clearer' that Covid vaccines have broken the link between infections and deaths, adding: 'That gives us the scope, we think, to go ahead on the 19th, cautiously and irreversibly'

RochdalePioneers said:

MrEd said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Sean_F said:

And from the POV of Red Wall voters, labour shortages are a pretty good thing.

It will certainly be fun to watch. All of those jobs that the poor downtrodden English didn't want to do are now available again now that Harry Hun has been sent packing. Rural Anglia where the food industry had a shortage of labour even with a big eastern European contigent now gets to offer to the good people of Wisbech a job in the food factories.

What do you mean you don't want to work in a factory? Didn't you vote to get rid of the forrin so these jobs could be yours again like they weren't before?

The question is whether the issue was the nature of the job itself or the pay. If the former, agreed, it will be interesting. However, it is basic economics, that if you increase the supply of labour - especially cheap labour - wages are bound to go down. Maybe we see wages go to a level that starts to attract people.

Another question of course is whether many of these jobs which were done by cheap foreign labour are now automated.

Two of my former employers had factories in that area. Wages and conditions were already well above where they had been. OK so its 4 years back now but one factory manager told me that they couldn't hire labour at any price to do night shifts, which capped capacity and allowed competition into the market from the EU.

My suspicion is that the person to blame is Simon Cowell. We have raise at least one generation who don't want to do the kind of work that is available because its beneath them and anyway they're really talented or whatever.

Before anyone asks. I have worked in a call centre. I have worked in a warehouse. I have worked in a food factory slicing cucumbers all day. I have stacked shelves in a supermarket. I have done night shifts. All honest work that (for the time) payed decently.

JosiasJessop said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

BBC news going big on Nissan and now Boris being interviewed, complete with Nissan branded jacket sporting 'prime minister'

He really knows how to speak to his red wall voters, and create fury with his opponents

Thats why he is hated so much on here, he is feared as a political opponent.

No, it is because he is a twat and an embarrassment.

Isn't that what you want in a political opponent? That would surely make him so much easier to beat.

One would have thought so if one believed the electorate had a decent choice. The problem at the last GE, as I have said before was the choice was between dumb and dumber and the electorate chose dumb. Fanbois of Johnson do crack me up though. They actually believe in him! He must be pissing himself.

I think the problem many opponents of Johnson have is that, in their dislike of him, they miss his appeal. They hate him, and therefore everyone else must as well. I mean, what's wrong with the voters? This sort of thinking is why so many of their attacks fail.

Personally, I quite like Boris Johnson; he has a certain appeal, and is *different* to other politicians - which again, can be appealing. Then again, I like our postman, but wouldn't want him to be PM. (I did not vote Conservative at 2019 GE.)

Boris is different to most other politicians, and attacks that would floor other politicians leave him unscathed. His opponents need to find a way to counter that - and fast.

And there is hope - "Teflon Tony's" coating eventually wore off: but much of that was his own doing, not his opponents'.

NerysHughes said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

BBC news going big on Nissan and now Boris being interviewed, complete with Nissan branded jacket sporting 'prime minister'

He really knows how to speak to his red wall voters, and create fury with his opponents

Thats why he is hated so much on here, he is feared as a political opponent.

No, it is because he is a twat and an embarrassment.

Isn't that what you want in a political opponent? That would surely make him so much easier to beat.

One would have thought so if one believed the electorate had a decent choice. The problem at the last GE, as I have said before was the choice was between dumb and dumber and the electorate chose dumb. Fanbois of Johnson do crack me up though. They actually believe in him! He must be pissing himself.

This thread highlights the problem with Johnson for his opponents. The incumbent Government is very short price favourite to a gain a seat at a by election in an opposition heartland. That is normally such a rare event but will be the 2nd time it has happened in a couple of months. As much as he mumbles and bumbles around, as bad as he is at PMQs, he is very popular with enough voters. That is why he is hated so much by his opponents, they just cant't believe or understand it.

rottenborough said:

Owen Jones doesn't even think Starmer will stand in this summer's leadership election if there is one.


Novara Media
@novaramedia
·
3h
Owen Jones argues that should Labour lose #BatleyandSpen, Starmer must resign.

"This has been an experiment in a leadership having no vision whatsoever." #TyskySour

https://twitter.com/novaramedia/status/1410518247137591296

StuartDickson said:

YBarddCwsc said:

StuartDickson said:

Foxy said:

StuartDickson said:

Foxy said:

felix said:

StuartDickson said:

felix said:

Cocky_cockney said:

Mike is right. Labour are value.

It's a risky one though, unlike C&A which felt like one of those golden tips that seemed right: thank you again, Mike: your tip paid for my day at Wimbledon yesterday among many other things!

Peak Boris was May 25th. There is a discernible and definite shift now.

The one thing which might lift the Conservatives back is if England win Euro 2020 in front of a full house at Wembley. Otherwise the tide has turned.

You may be right but the polling evidence really is not there for such a claim. The government has had a rough week or so and the press is hostile but these kind of things often flare up only to fizzle out again. All we need is a Grauniead - ' the day the polls turned' and we head back to square one.

What never fizzles out is Tory sleaze. The events of the last week fit into a recognisable pattern going back many decades.

What the Tories need is a generation of nice people. Good, honest, competent, straightforward, pleasant folk with no “side”. When one looks at the coming generation of young Tories one sees the exact opposite. Tory sleaze is going to be around for at least a half century to come.

No sleaze in the SNP thankfully. Salmond and Sturgeon say Hi..

Sleaze comes when a party is so long in power that they think that they can get away with anything and still get elected.

People like @Big_G_NorthWales will vote for a donkey with a blue rosette, and in Scotland will vote SNP until independence. Only after that will Scottish politics return to competitive parties.

The SNP will wither away post-independence. I, and many other members, will leave and help build new, normal parties. Our goal is for Scotland to be a normal country.

Yes, I think that until there is independence the SNP with all its many faults and infighting will dominate Scotland. Afterwards it can safely be dissolved, into rival parties, and more functional politics.

One party states are not good, whether SNP in Holyrood, Labour in Cardiff, DUP in Stormont or Tory in Westminster. They all generate sleaze when hegemonic.

!

And Drakeford’s Welsh Labour does not seem to be as entitled, arrogant and sleazy as Scottish Labour once was when it had hegemony.

Drakeford himself is unassuming, but the grip Welsh Labour has on public life in Wales is way more arrogant & sleazy than anything in Westminster.

Llafur have run Wales as a one-party state since 1999, to no apparent benefit to anyone apart from themselves. They have prospered while the Welsh are fed on scraps.

If Llafur is not as "as entitled, arrogant and sleazy as Scottish Labour once was", then SLAB must have been really something special in terms of semi-criminal organisations.

Oh, it was. It fostered George Galloway for a start. And there are plenty more repulsive mafioso deep in the sewers of SLAB history.

I don’t think anyone in England or Wales can conceive just how vicious and filthy Scottish Labour had become by the last quarter of the 20th century. You had to be there. I was and saw it with my own eyes.

JosiasJessop said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

BBC news going big on Nissan and now Boris being interviewed, complete with Nissan branded jacket sporting 'prime minister'

He really knows how to speak to his red wall voters, and create fury with his opponents

Thats why he is hated so much on here, he is feared as a political opponent.

No, it is because he is a twat and an embarrassment.

Isn't that what you want in a political opponent? That would surely make him so much easier to beat.

One would have thought so if one believed the electorate had a decent choice. The problem at the last GE, as I have said before was the choice was between dumb and dumber and the electorate chose dumb. Fanbois of Johnson do crack me up though. They actually believe in him! He must be pissing himself.

I think the problem many opponents of Johnson have is that, in their dislike of him, they miss his appeal. They hate him, and therefore everyone else must as well. I mean, what's wrong with the voters? This sort of thinking is why so many of their attacks fail.

Personally, I quite like Boris Johnson; he has a certain appeal, and is *different* to other politicians - which again, can be appealing. Then again, I like our postman, but wouldn't want him to be PM. (I did not vote Conservative at 2019 GE.)

Boris is different to most other politicians, and attacks that would floor other politicians leave him unscathed. His opponents need to find a way to counter that - and fast.

And there is hope - "Teflon Tony's" coating eventually wore off: but much of that was his own doing, not his opponents'.

FrancisUrquhart said:

rottenborough said:

beentheredonethat said:

RH1992 said:

MaxPB said:

Lol some wanker from the WHO wants vaccinated populations to keep social distancing and masks. Fuck off mate.

Saw a gleeful tweet from a former associate this morning saying he was happy to be "double masked and double vaxxed" on the Tube with the hashtag #zerocovid.

Needless to say his entire feed is retweets of Pagel and other indy SAGE members and he's been calling for restrictions to be tightened for a few weeks now.

Some people just want us to live like this forever and to hell with the consequences. I saw my grandmother for the first time in 18 months at the weekend and she's noticeably less mobile from not being able to get out and about just to do the shopping. It was quite upsetting to see.

If you know where he lives, do me a favour and go round and kick him in the bollocks for me. The smug tool.

Jason Groves
@JasonGroves1
·
5m
Boris Johnson all but confirms July 19 reopening is on. Says it is 'ever clearer' that Covid vaccines have broken the link between infections and deaths, adding: 'That gives us the scope, we think, to go ahead on the 19th, cautiously and irreversibly'

Prof Pagel is currently throwing things at her telly...

Big_G_NorthWales said:

There are 8 locals tonight plus B & S

StuartDickson said:

turbotubbs said:

RochdalePioneers said:

eek said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

RochdalePioneers said:

StuartDickson said:

Foxy said:

felix said:

StuartDickson said:

felix said:

Cocky_cockney said:

Mike is right. Labour are value.

It's a risky one though, unlike C&A which felt like one of those golden tips that seemed right: thank you again, Mike: your tip paid for my day at Wimbledon yesterday among many other things!

Peak Boris was May 25th. There is a discernible and definite shift now.

The one thing which might lift the Conservatives back is if England win Euro 2020 in front of a full house at Wembley. Otherwise the tide has turned.

You may be right but the polling evidence really is not there for such a claim. The government has had a rough week or so and the press is hostile but these kind of things often flare up only to fizzle out again. All we need is a Grauniead - ' the day the polls turned' and we head back to square one.

What never fizzles out is Tory sleaze. The events of the last week fit into a recognisable pattern going back many decades.

What the Tories need is a generation of nice people. Good, honest, competent, straightforward, pleasant folk with no “side”. When one looks at the coming generation of young Tories one sees the exact opposite. Tory sleaze is going to be around for at least a half century to come.

No sleaze in the SNP thankfully. Salmond and Sturgeon say Hi..

Sleaze comes when a party is so long in power that they think that they can get away with anything and still get elected.

People like @Big_G_NorthWales will vote for a donkey with a blue rosette, and in Scotland will vote SNP until independence. Only after that will Scottish politics return to competitive parties.

The SNP will wither away post-independence. I, and many other members, will leave and help build new, normal parties. Our goal is for Scotland to be a normal country.

I think the SNP do a (mainly) decent job in government, especially considering they're now in their 4th term. I also think that Scottish independence is inevitable and that I will likely vote for it as the Union is unsustainable.

That is very different from me wanting to become a member of or support the SNP. I hope that independent Scotland would retain its general level of civilisation and decency which has been lost south of the wall, but there are other parties who can deliver that.

Thank you for a fair analysis, and hopefully your vote when the day arrives!

There is nothing inevitable about Scottish Independence however much diehard anti Tories like Rochdale may hope there is

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-shows-drop-for-scottish-independence-support-as-sir-john-curtice-claims-results-shows-cooling-over-uk-split-3287969

It would be insane for both Scotland and the rest of the UK but with Boris as PM it's possible....

He has already cast off Northern Ireland. Protestations about Boris being a unionist have no value when he is delivering anti-union policies. Nor am I obsessed by minutiae poll movements like the Essicks Massiv - this is a long game and the government dilute the arguments for staying every single day.

The problem is the nexus of NI, the EU and United Kingdom leaving is an almost unsolvable problem. How do you have no border between Eire and NI and no border between rUK and NI, but a border between the UK and EU? I don't think there is a solution that's easy. Most in the rUK would I suspect not care much if Ireland re-united, but that should be for the people of NI to decide, just as it is for the people of Scotland to decide if they want to be an independent country and for the people of the UK to decide if they wanted to leave the EU. How you deliver those wishes is hard, as no vote is ever 100 %, and there will always be those who are unhappy.

The PB Ultras want to partition Scotland, incarcerate the traitorous SNP and send gunboats up the Forth at dawn. And they still won’t be happy…

FrancisUrquhart said:

rottenborough said:

Owen Jones doesn't even think Starmer will stand in this summer's leadership election if there is one.


Novara Media
@novaramedia
·
3h
Owen Jones argues that should Labour lose #BatleyandSpen, Starmer must resign.

"This has been an experiment in a leadership having no vision whatsoever." #TyskySour

https://twitter.com/novaramedia/status/1410518247137591296

Owen has been all over the shop the past couple of weeks...even accusing Galloway of being old school right winger...

FrancisUrquhart said:

Kim Leadbeater...I have supported the teacher in hiding...

"I would imagine he’d probably appreciate having the time and the privacy to do that" (hiding)

https://order-order.com/2021/07/01/watch-labours-leadbeater-slammed-by-ryan-stephenson-for-claiming-grammar-school-row-has-been-resolved-when-teacher-is-still-in-hiding/

rottenborough said:

beentheredonethat said:

RH1992 said:

MaxPB said:

Lol some wanker from the WHO wants vaccinated populations to keep social distancing and masks. Fuck off mate.

Saw a gleeful tweet from a former associate this morning saying he was happy to be "double masked and double vaxxed" on the Tube with the hashtag #zerocovid.

Needless to say his entire feed is retweets of Pagel and other indy SAGE members and he's been calling for restrictions to be tightened for a few weeks now.

Some people just want us to live like this forever and to hell with the consequences. I saw my grandmother for the first time in 18 months at the weekend and she's noticeably less mobile from not being able to get out and about just to do the shopping. It was quite upsetting to see.

If you know where he lives, do me a favour and go round and kick him in the bollocks for me. The smug tool.

Jason Groves
@JasonGroves1
·
5m
Boris Johnson all but confirms July 19 reopening is on. Says it is 'ever clearer' that Covid vaccines have broken the link between infections and deaths, adding: 'That gives us the scope, we think, to go ahead on the 19th, cautiously and irreversibly'

Stuartinromford said:

JosiasJessop said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

BBC news going big on Nissan and now Boris being interviewed, complete with Nissan branded jacket sporting 'prime minister'

He really knows how to speak to his red wall voters, and create fury with his opponents

Thats why he is hated so much on here, he is feared as a political opponent.

No, it is because he is a twat and an embarrassment.

Isn't that what you want in a political opponent? That would surely make him so much easier to beat.

One would have thought so if one believed the electorate had a decent choice. The problem at the last GE, as I have said before was the choice was between dumb and dumber and the electorate chose dumb. Fanbois of Johnson do crack me up though. They actually believe in him! He must be pissing himself.

I think the problem many opponents of Johnson have is that, in their dislike of him, they miss his appeal. They hate him, and therefore everyone else must as well. I mean, what's wrong with the voters? This sort of thinking is why so many of their attacks fail.

Personally, I quite like Boris Johnson; he has a certain appeal, and is *different* to other politicians - which again, can be appealing. Then again, I like our postman, but wouldn't want him to be PM. (I did not vote Conservative at 2019 GE.)

Boris is different to most other politicians, and attacks that would floor other politicians leave him unscathed. His opponents need to find a way to counter that - and fast.

And there is hope - "Teflon Tony's" coating eventually wore off: but much of that was his own doing, not his opponents'.

To an extent, that's always been the case- Maggie was unassailable until she started to believe her own hype. Something similar happened to Cameron.

What's slightly different about Boris is that the flaws were obvious before he even became PM. They were also obvious during 2020, hence the steady fall for his party over the year.

Therefore, Labour might as well stick with Starmer. Yes, he got less than nowhere in the first half of 2020, but it's not obvious that anyone else would have done any better. And I stick to my theory that, when we have collectively had our fill of BoJo (5 years, plus or minus 5 years), someone boring, hard-working and... Starmer-like will be just the ticket, rather than a left-wing gob on a stick.

CarlottaVance said:

OldKingCole said:

CarlottaVance said:

OldKingCole said:

CarlottaVance said:

OldKingCole said:

CarlottaVance said:

Letter from Guernsey Chief Minister to Bailiwick:

From today there are also things we need to do very differently. And one of the most important is to change our thinking around what cases in the Bailiwick means. We’ve associated it with hospitalisation, with deaths, with the potential for health services to be overwhelmed. We’ve justified what are really very strict and quite extreme travel restrictions because of those risks. But the risk profile has changed with more than 70% of entire population having had at least one dose. The data shows a full vaccination affords 95% protection against needing hospital care. Younger age-groups are significantly less vulnerable and already far less likely to become very ill and need hospital care. No, it’s not completely risk-free, it never will be no matter what we do. But it is a big change compared to the risk we faced before the vaccine. And as we no longer face the same levels of risk, we can no longer justify the same levels of restrictions. It’s simply not proportionate and not necessary. But in removing the restrictions that we can no longer justify, we must also ask our community not to be complacent. It’s time to start learning to live with COVID, and if we do so responsibly, we can finally begin to regain some of the lost freedoms that COVID has cost us. And that should be cause for celebration.

https://covid19.gov.gg/node/798

I sincerely hope my niece will be able to visit her mother in Alderney. My sister needs someone to support her.

If she's double jabbed and is coming from the CTA there are no restrictions & no testing.

She is and is. Thought that was the case, but thanks. Bit of luck, and assuming Aurigny are flying, the rest of my sisters children will be able to visit her. Not sure, for other reasons, that I will.

They each would need to complete one of these before travel:

https://traveltracker.gov.gg/

Aurigny is now flying a much increased schedule - from 2 flights a week to Gatwick to several per day. Although ironically the first arrivals on "open borders" day were delayed by fog!

Thanks again. Gatwick now, I see; used only to be Southampton.

And disruptions due to weather were common when I was going to Alderney quite often.

They've just re-started Southampton to Alderney direct flights with the change in border policy - no longer any need to go via Guernsey

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

StuartDickson said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Charles said:

Razedabode said:

JosiasJessop said:

StuartDickson said:

Foxy said:

felix said:

StuartDickson said:

felix said:

Cocky_cockney said:

Mike is right. Labour are value.

It's a risky one though, unlike C&A which felt like one of those golden tips that seemed right: thank you again, Mike: your tip paid for my day at Wimbledon yesterday among many other things!

Peak Boris was May 25th. There is a discernible and definite shift now.

The one thing which might lift the Conservatives back is if England win Euro 2020 in front of a full house at Wembley. Otherwise the tide has turned.

You may be right but the polling evidence really is not there for such a claim. The government has had a rough week or so and the press is hostile but these kind of things often flare up only to fizzle out again. All we need is a Grauniead - ' the day the polls turned' and we head back to square one.

What never fizzles out is Tory sleaze. The events of the last week fit into a recognisable pattern going back many decades.

What the Tories need is a generation of nice people. Good, honest, competent, straightforward, pleasant folk with no “side”. When one looks at the coming generation of young Tories one sees the exact opposite. Tory sleaze is going to be around for at least a half century to come.

No sleaze in the SNP thankfully. Salmond and Sturgeon say Hi..

Sleaze comes when a party is so long in power that they think that they can get away with anything and still get elected.

People like @Big_G_NorthWales will vote for a donkey with a blue rosette, and in Scotland will vote SNP until independence. Only after that will Scottish politics return to competitive parties.

The SNP will wither away post-independence. I, and many other members, will leave and help build new, normal parties. Our goal is for Scotland to be a normal country.

Or the SNP will become like the ANC in South Africa. The victors of independence not working for their people, but getting voted in continuously anyway ...

What happens to the SNP if it doesn’t achieve independence? Seems an alternative and interesting question

They are like the Earl of Bruce’s spider

Indeed. We’ll try, try and try again, until we win.

Scots only need to win once. The BritNats need to win every time. This is only going to end one way.

(Charles, at the time of the spider story he was already king.)

No you will not because the UK government will not allow you to.

2014 was a once in a generation vote and you will not get another until a generation has elapsed since then if ever.

Union matters are reserved to Westminster under the Scotland Act 1998 anyway

*Your* UK government will (foolishly) not allow Scots to express their free will at the ballot box. Another UK government will.

At this moment in time I think Sturgeon will be the one having second thoughts as independence popularity wanes and Scots fear for their pensions

Question. As pensions were not under threat in 2014 does that mean that Liar plans to play politics with people's pensions as you suggest?

Does not the apparent willingness of the supposed UK government to blackmail Scotland just make it obvious why every day that goes past strengthens the case that the Union must come to an end?

JosiasJessop said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

BBC news going big on Nissan and now Boris being interviewed, complete with Nissan branded jacket sporting 'prime minister'

He really knows how to speak to his red wall voters, and create fury with his opponents

Thats why he is hated so much on here, he is feared as a political opponent.

No, it is because he is a twat and an embarrassment.

Isn't that what you want in a political opponent? That would surely make him so much easier to beat.

One would have thought so if one believed the electorate had a decent choice. The problem at the last GE, as I have said before was the choice was between dumb and dumber and the electorate chose dumb. Fanbois of Johnson do crack me up though. They actually believe in him! He must be pissing himself.

I think the problem many opponents of Johnson have is that, in their dislike of him, they miss his appeal. They hate him, and therefore everyone else must as well. I mean, what's wrong with the voters? This sort of thinking is why so many of their attacks fail.

Personally, I quite like Boris Johnson; he has a certain appeal, and is *different* to other politicians - which again, can be appealing. Then again, I like our postman, but wouldn't want him to be PM. (I did not vote Conservative at 2019 GE.)

Boris is different to most other politicians, and attacks that would floor other politicians leave him unscathed. His opponents need to find a way to counter that - and fast.

And there is hope - "Teflon Tony's" coating eventually wore off: but much of that was his own doing, not his opponents'.

eek said:

kjh said:

JohnLilburne said:

kjh said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

StuartDickson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SouthamObserver said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

StuartDickson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

OldKingCole said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

beentheredonethat said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Breaking

Nissan confirm they are to build a 1 billion pound car battery factory in Sunderland

Absolutely coincidental that this announced on by Election Day

I hadn't thought about that but if so good politics

The BBC also says that
'The government is contributing to the cost of the expansion, but a precise figure has not been disclosed.'

Ion other words, a massive handout. Some might call it a bribe.

I am sorry but investing in the future green economy is essential and is actively promoted by all governments

All governments recently signed a “level playing field” treaty, but one of the signatories was crossing their fingers behind their back. Guess which one.

The EU are over and the UK will decide on investments and jobs

Investment decisions will surely be based on access to markets into which to sell, so the EU is not over. It's just that the relationship and dependency is different.

The EU dictating UK investment decisions to the UK government is over

Bollocks. Your BritNat government just signed a “level playing field” treaty that explicitly says the exact opposite.

Maggie must be spinning in her grave that her party has morphed into the party of big government, state subsidy and picking winners. It’ll end in tears… for the taxpayers.

Creating jobs and green investments will end in 'tears' of joy for the taxpayers not pain

So you think civil servants and politicians are best placed to decide what companies produce stuff. Governments should be creating strategic policies (eg for green investment) they should not be perverting the market or deciding who gets the business by giving subsidies. I can't believe a Tory believes this. Why not go the whole hog and nationalise it?

Civil servants and politicians should not be allowed anywhere near business decisions. They bugger it up every time they interfere.

The difference is that there is a political will to move the green agenda faster than the market would led to its own devices

Absolutely, but that should be by strategic decisions that the Govt has control over (eg infrastructure) and not subsidising individual businesses.

Out there could be an entrepreneur at the forefront of producing batteries that are better and cheaper. He currently employs 20 engineers, but will become the Bill Gates of the green revolution employing 10s of thousands of UK employees. His first big deal is Nissan because his batteries are better and cheaper.

But no someone in Whitehall who has never heard of him gives £100m to Nissan snuffing him out at birth.

The Battery industry really isn't IT...

Stuartinromford said:

JosiasJessop said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

BBC news going big on Nissan and now Boris being interviewed, complete with Nissan branded jacket sporting 'prime minister'

He really knows how to speak to his red wall voters, and create fury with his opponents

Thats why he is hated so much on here, he is feared as a political opponent.

No, it is because he is a twat and an embarrassment.

Isn't that what you want in a political opponent? That would surely make him so much easier to beat.

One would have thought so if one believed the electorate had a decent choice. The problem at the last GE, as I have said before was the choice was between dumb and dumber and the electorate chose dumb. Fanbois of Johnson do crack me up though. They actually believe in him! He must be pissing himself.

I think the problem many opponents of Johnson have is that, in their dislike of him, they miss his appeal. They hate him, and therefore everyone else must as well. I mean, what's wrong with the voters? This sort of thinking is why so many of their attacks fail.

Personally, I quite like Boris Johnson; he has a certain appeal, and is *different* to other politicians - which again, can be appealing. Then again, I like our postman, but wouldn't want him to be PM. (I did not vote Conservative at 2019 GE.)

Boris is different to most other politicians, and attacks that would floor other politicians leave him unscathed. His opponents need to find a way to counter that - and fast.

And there is hope - "Teflon Tony's" coating eventually wore off: but much of that was his own doing, not his opponents'.

To an extent, that's always been the case- Maggie was unassailable until she started to believe her own hype. Something similar happened to Cameron.

What's slightly different about Boris is that the flaws were obvious before he even became PM. They were also obvious during 2020, hence the steady fall for his party over the year.

Therefore, Labour might as well stick with Starmer. Yes, he got less than nowhere in the first half of 2020, but it's not obvious that anyone else would have done any better. And I stick to my theory that, when we have collectively had our fill of BoJo (5 years, plus or minus 5 years), someone boring, hard-working and... Starmer-like will be just the ticket, rather than a left-wing gob on a stick.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

What a start for England and DRS.

LBW: Reviewed, not out.
LBW: Reviewed, three red lights. Review lost.
LBW: Reviewed, three red lights. Review lost.

6-2 end of second over and Sri Lanka have no reviews left.

Now 12 -3

Leon said:

Stuartinromford said:

JosiasJessop said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

BBC news going big on Nissan and now Boris being interviewed, complete with Nissan branded jacket sporting 'prime minister'

He really knows how to speak to his red wall voters, and create fury with his opponents

Thats why he is hated so much on here, he is feared as a political opponent.

No, it is because he is a twat and an embarrassment.

Isn't that what you want in a political opponent? That would surely make him so much easier to beat.

One would have thought so if one believed the electorate had a decent choice. The problem at the last GE, as I have said before was the choice was between dumb and dumber and the electorate chose dumb. Fanbois of Johnson do crack me up though. They actually believe in him! He must be pissing himself.

I think the problem many opponents of Johnson have is that, in their dislike of him, they miss his appeal. They hate him, and therefore everyone else must as well. I mean, what's wrong with the voters? This sort of thinking is why so many of their attacks fail.

Personally, I quite like Boris Johnson; he has a certain appeal, and is *different* to other politicians - which again, can be appealing. Then again, I like our postman, but wouldn't want him to be PM. (I did not vote Conservative at 2019 GE.)

Boris is different to most other politicians, and attacks that would floor other politicians leave him unscathed. His opponents need to find a way to counter that - and fast.

And there is hope - "Teflon Tony's" coating eventually wore off: but much of that was his own doing, not his opponents'.

To an extent, that's always been the case- Maggie was unassailable until she started to believe her own hype. Something similar happened to Cameron.

What's slightly different about Boris is that the flaws were obvious before he even became PM. They were also obvious during 2020, hence the steady fall for his party over the year.

Therefore, Labour might as well stick with Starmer. Yes, he got less than nowhere in the first half of 2020, but it's not obvious that anyone else would have done any better. And I stick to my theory that, when we have collectively had our fill of BoJo (5 years, plus or minus 5 years), someone boring, hard-working and... Starmer-like will be just the ticket, rather than a left-wing gob on a stick.

Labour’s problems are way beyond Starmer. What is their offering? What are they selling that is so different to the Tories that it’s worth taking a punt on a party that elected a terrorist-hugging Marxist as a leader, very recently?

The Tories are now peddling quasi-socialist economics - everyone is, around the world, it’s like a war. Keynes is back

Labour can only offer more of the same, but with the added toxicity of their ID politics

‘Vote Labour! We are the same as the Tories but unlike them we also think you’re racist scum’

‘And we think people with penises are often women’

Leon said:

Blue masks, sunburned thigh
Summer dazzles with stillness
Two dildos are Knapped

FrancisUrquhart said:

Cricket is having its Moneyball moment
When Twenty20 launched, the game of cricket changed forever. Now a team of data evangelists are taking the sport to the next level

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/cricviz-twenty20-cricket-data

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Stuartinromford said:

JosiasJessop said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

BBC news going big on Nissan and now Boris being interviewed, complete with Nissan branded jacket sporting 'prime minister'

He really knows how to speak to his red wall voters, and create fury with his opponents

Thats why he is hated so much on here, he is feared as a political opponent.

No, it is because he is a twat and an embarrassment.

Isn't that what you want in a political opponent? That would surely make him so much easier to beat.

One would have thought so if one believed the electorate had a decent choice. The problem at the last GE, as I have said before was the choice was between dumb and dumber and the electorate chose dumb. Fanbois of Johnson do crack me up though. They actually believe in him! He must be pissing himself.

I think the problem many opponents of Johnson have is that, in their dislike of him, they miss his appeal. They hate him, and therefore everyone else must as well. I mean, what's wrong with the voters? This sort of thinking is why so many of their attacks fail.

Personally, I quite like Boris Johnson; he has a certain appeal, and is *different* to other politicians - which again, can be appealing. Then again, I like our postman, but wouldn't want him to be PM. (I did not vote Conservative at 2019 GE.)

Boris is different to most other politicians, and attacks that would floor other politicians leave him unscathed. His opponents need to find a way to counter that - and fast.

And there is hope - "Teflon Tony's" coating eventually wore off: but much of that was his own doing, not his opponents'.

To an extent, that's always been the case- Maggie was unassailable until she started to believe her own hype. Something similar happened to Cameron.

What's slightly different about Boris is that the flaws were obvious before he even became PM. They were also obvious during 2020, hence the steady fall for his party over the year.

Therefore, Labour might as well stick with Starmer. Yes, he got less than nowhere in the first half of 2020, but it's not obvious that anyone else would have done any better. And I stick to my theory that, when we have collectively had our fill of BoJo (5 years, plus or minus 5 years), someone boring, hard-working and... Starmer-like will be just the ticket, rather than a left-wing gob on a stick.

Labour’s problems are way beyond Starmer. What is their offering? What are they selling that is so different to the Tories that it’s worth taking a punt on a party that elected a terrorist-hugging Marxist as a leader, very recently?

The Tories are now peddling quasi-socialist economics - everyone is, around the world, it’s like a war. Keynes is back

Labour can only offer more of the same, but with the added toxicity of their ID politics

‘Vote Labour! We are the same as the Tories but unlike them we also think you’re racist scum’

‘And we think people with penises are often women’

Ha - I was just trying to come up with a way of making the same point. Except it wasn't as succinct.

Those willing to consider voting Conservative don't, as @Nigel_Foremain suggested earlier, venerate Boris. They may find him amusing, but that doesn't translate him being their ideal Prime Minister. They just prefer him to the alternative, for the reasons Leon neatly sets out above.

Scott_xP said:

Leon said:

Blue masks, sunburned thigh
Summer dazzles with stillness
Two dildos are Knapped

...

StuartDickson said:

YBarddCwsc said:

StuartDickson said:

Foxy said:

StuartDickson said:

Foxy said:

felix said:

StuartDickson said:

felix said:

Cocky_cockney said:

Mike is right. Labour are value.

It's a risky one though, unlike C&A which felt like one of those golden tips that seemed right: thank you again, Mike: your tip paid for my day at Wimbledon yesterday among many other things!

Peak Boris was May 25th. There is a discernible and definite shift now.

The one thing which might lift the Conservatives back is if England win Euro 2020 in front of a full house at Wembley. Otherwise the tide has turned.

You may be right but the polling evidence really is not there for such a claim. The government has had a rough week or so and the press is hostile but these kind of things often flare up only to fizzle out again. All we need is a Grauniead - ' the day the polls turned' and we head back to square one.

What never fizzles out is Tory sleaze. The events of the last week fit into a recognisable pattern going back many decades.

What the Tories need is a generation of nice people. Good, honest, competent, straightforward, pleasant folk with no “side”. When one looks at the coming generation of young Tories one sees the exact opposite. Tory sleaze is going to be around for at least a half century to come.

No sleaze in the SNP thankfully. Salmond and Sturgeon say Hi..

Sleaze comes when a party is so long in power that they think that they can get away with anything and still get elected.

People like @Big_G_NorthWales will vote for a donkey with a blue rosette, and in Scotland will vote SNP until independence. Only after that will Scottish politics return to competitive parties.

The SNP will wither away post-independence. I, and many other members, will leave and help build new, normal parties. Our goal is for Scotland to be a normal country.

Yes, I think that until there is independence the SNP with all its many faults and infighting will dominate Scotland. Afterwards it can safely be dissolved, into rival parties, and more functional politics.

One party states are not good, whether SNP in Holyrood, Labour in Cardiff, DUP in Stormont or Tory in Westminster. They all generate sleaze when hegemonic.

!

And Drakeford’s Welsh Labour does not seem to be as entitled, arrogant and sleazy as Scottish Labour once was when it had hegemony.

Drakeford himself is unassuming, but the grip Welsh Labour has on public life in Wales is way more arrogant & sleazy than anything in Westminster.

Llafur have run Wales as a one-party state since 1999, to no apparent benefit to anyone apart from themselves. They have prospered while the Welsh are fed on scraps.

If Llafur is not as "as entitled, arrogant and sleazy as Scottish Labour once was", then SLAB must have been really something special in terms of semi-criminal organisations.

Oh, it was. It fostered George Galloway for a start. And there are plenty more repulsive mafioso deep in the sewers of SLAB history.

I don’t think anyone in England or Wales can conceive just how vicious and filthy Scottish Labour had become by the last quarter of the 20th century. You had to be there. I was and saw it with my own eyes.

rottenborough said:

Floater said:

https://order-order.com/2021/07/01/watch-labours-leadbeater-slammed-by-ryan-stephenson-for-claiming-grammar-school-row-has-been-resolved-when-teacher-is-still-in-hiding/

"Leadbeater wouldn’t say she wanted the teacher back in school because she knows Galloway would hoover up her voters if she said that, many of whom don’t want him back in school. If Labour candidates won’t stand up for a liberal free society they deserve to lose"

Quite

A very rare sighting of the Tory candidate by the sounds of things.

Philip_Thompson said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Philip_Thompson said:

RochdalePioneers said:

turbotubbs said:

The problem is the nexus of NI, the EU and United Kingdom leaving is an almost unsolvable problem. How do you have no border between Eire and NI and no border between rUK and NI, but a border between the UK and EU? I don't think there is a solution that's easy. Most in the rUK would I suspect not care much if Ireland re-united, but that should be for the people of NI to decide, just as it is for the people of Scotland to decide if they want to be an independent country and for the people of the UK to decide if they wanted to leave the EU. How you deliver those wishes is hard, as no vote is ever 100 %, and there will always be those who are unhappy.

Indeed, and it shines a light onto the question about priorities. All through the referendum both sides spoke about what was best for the UK. They disagreed on what that was but agreed that the UK was the priority.

So whatever kind of Brexit we then looked at should have put the best interests of the UK at the centre of things. How to square off the Irish Border issue was obvious - depart the EU with a continuation deal so that we become Norway or Switzerland or even Turkey - maintain sufficient agreement that the border is not a problem.

May chose not to do that, which left the NI backstop as the solution. Yes it restricts our room to maneuver based on our other decision but preserves the UK at the centre of the deal.

What we have now is a UK Prime Minister who has no interest in the UK as there is no longer a UK from a customs and trading perspective. You said that people in the rUK don't care about NI and that is patently correct as look what their government has done with the backing and support.

It isn't just NI either as the row over Scotland shows. The priority for the UK government is England, and if that means an end to the Union as we already have defacto then so what. So the debate isn't even about Brexit any more, its about the Union. Quite how the clown gets himself out of this self-made trap I don't know. On one hand throw NI out of the union against their will, on the other hand refuse to even consider letting Scotland do what they voted for.

Why should we prioritise the UK? Serious question.

The Scots have voted for devolution. So have the Welsh and NI. They get to decide for themselves what they want while the English can't.

Why shouldn't the English say "this is what we want" and NI or anyone else can either like it or lump it?

If NI choose to vote for Sinn Fein who don't bother to turn up to Parliament, or the DUP who just say No! No! No! to everything then why shouldn't English MPs prioritise England over NI? What is wrong with that?

From an English perspective "why should we prioritise the UK" is a perfectly valid question. Its just that it isn't if you are the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

You and I agree that the union in its current form isn't sustainable, yet the PM and his government insist that it is. How they act though just proves both of us right that it isn't.

Any unionist worth their salts should be outraged that you need an export license to send products from one part of the UK to another. As most of them seem to be cheering it on it is just another example of their hypocrisy that I keep calling out.

Its a perfectly valid question if you are the Prime Minister. Since we live in a democracy the Prime Minister has to try to ensure that at the next election they win 326+ MPs in Westminster.

Due to the way the Northern Irish choose to vote the PM currently has zero MPs in Northern Ireland, zero target seats in Northern Ireland. The range of MPs he could get in Northern Ireland at the next election has a lower bound of zero, an upper bound of zero and a mean, median and mode average of zero.

If the Northern Irish wish to be an integral part of the union, then voting as an integral part of the union for the national parties would be a good starting point.

Philip_Thompson said:

RochdalePioneers said:

turbotubbs said:

The problem is the nexus of NI, the EU and United Kingdom leaving is an almost unsolvable problem. How do you have no border between Eire and NI and no border between rUK and NI, but a border between the UK and EU? I don't think there is a solution that's easy. Most in the rUK would I suspect not care much if Ireland re-united, but that should be for the people of NI to decide, just as it is for the people of Scotland to decide if they want to be an independent country and for the people of the UK to decide if they wanted to leave the EU. How you deliver those wishes is hard, as no vote is ever 100 %, and there will always be those who are unhappy.

Indeed, and it shines a light onto the question about priorities. All through the referendum both sides spoke about what was best for the UK. They disagreed on what that was but agreed that the UK was the priority.

So whatever kind of Brexit we then looked at should have put the best interests of the UK at the centre of things. How to square off the Irish Border issue was obvious - depart the EU with a continuation deal so that we become Norway or Switzerland or even Turkey - maintain sufficient agreement that the border is not a problem.

May chose not to do that, which left the NI backstop as the solution. Yes it restricts our room to maneuver based on our other decision but preserves the UK at the centre of the deal.

What we have now is a UK Prime Minister who has no interest in the UK as there is no longer a UK from a customs and trading perspective. You said that people in the rUK don't care about NI and that is patently correct as look what their government has done with the backing and support.

It isn't just NI either as the row over Scotland shows. The priority for the UK government is England, and if that means an end to the Union as we already have defacto then so what. So the debate isn't even about Brexit any more, its about the Union. Quite how the clown gets himself out of this self-made trap I don't know. On one hand throw NI out of the union against their will, on the other hand refuse to even consider letting Scotland do what they voted for.

Why should we prioritise the UK? Serious question.

The Scots have voted for devolution. So have the Welsh and NI. They get to decide for themselves what they want while the English can't.

Why shouldn't the English say "this is what we want" and NI or anyone else can either like it or lump it?

If NI choose to vote for Sinn Fein who don't bother to turn up to Parliament, or the DUP who just say No! No! No! to everything then why shouldn't English MPs prioritise England over NI? What is wrong with that?

RochdalePioneers said:

Philip_Thompson said:

RochdalePioneers said:

turbotubbs said:

The problem is the nexus of NI, the EU and United Kingdom leaving is an almost unsolvable problem. How do you have no border between Eire and NI and no border between rUK and NI, but a border between the UK and EU? I don't think there is a solution that's easy. Most in the rUK would I suspect not care much if Ireland re-united, but that should be for the people of NI to decide, just as it is for the people of Scotland to decide if they want to be an independent country and for the people of the UK to decide if they wanted to leave the EU. How you deliver those wishes is hard, as no vote is ever 100 %, and there will always be those who are unhappy.

Indeed, and it shines a light onto the question about priorities. All through the referendum both sides spoke about what was best for the UK. They disagreed on what that was but agreed that the UK was the priority.

So whatever kind of Brexit we then looked at should have put the best interests of the UK at the centre of things. How to square off the Irish Border issue was obvious - depart the EU with a continuation deal so that we become Norway or Switzerland or even Turkey - maintain sufficient agreement that the border is not a problem.

May chose not to do that, which left the NI backstop as the solution. Yes it restricts our room to maneuver based on our other decision but preserves the UK at the centre of the deal.

What we have now is a UK Prime Minister who has no interest in the UK as there is no longer a UK from a customs and trading perspective. You said that people in the rUK don't care about NI and that is patently correct as look what their government has done with the backing and support.

It isn't just NI either as the row over Scotland shows. The priority for the UK government is England, and if that means an end to the Union as we already have defacto then so what. So the debate isn't even about Brexit any more, its about the Union. Quite how the clown gets himself out of this self-made trap I don't know. On one hand throw NI out of the union against their will, on the other hand refuse to even consider letting Scotland do what they voted for.

Why should we prioritise the UK? Serious question.

The Scots have voted for devolution. So have the Welsh and NI. They get to decide for themselves what they want while the English can't.

Why shouldn't the English say "this is what we want" and NI or anyone else can either like it or lump it?

If NI choose to vote for Sinn Fein who don't bother to turn up to Parliament, or the DUP who just say No! No! No! to everything then why shouldn't English MPs prioritise England over NI? What is wrong with that?

From an English perspective "why should we prioritise the UK" is a perfectly valid question. Its just that it isn't if you are the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

You and I agree that the union in its current form isn't sustainable, yet the PM and his government insist that it is. How they act though just proves both of us right that it isn't.

Any unionist worth their salts should be outraged that you need an export license to send products from one part of the UK to another. As most of them seem to be cheering it on it is just another example of their hypocrisy that I keep calling out.

Razedabode said:

The reason Curtice says “the Indy argument is cooling” is precisely because of brexit. It is never ending, complex, full of contradictions and it is playing out in front of everyone.

How the SNP argues the same doesn’t happen with Indy (on a larger scale) is one for them to answer.

Philip_Thompson said:

Carnyx said:

Philip_Thompson said:

RochdalePioneers said:

turbotubbs said:

The problem is the nexus of NI, the EU and United Kingdom leaving is an almost unsolvable problem. How do you have no border between Eire and NI and no border between rUK and NI, but a border between the UK and EU? I don't think there is a solution that's easy. Most in the rUK would I suspect not care much if Ireland re-united, but that should be for the people of NI to decide, just as it is for the people of Scotland to decide if they want to be an independent country and for the people of the UK to decide if they wanted to leave the EU. How you deliver those wishes is hard, as no vote is ever 100 %, and there will always be those who are unhappy.

Indeed, and it shines a light onto the question about priorities. All through the referendum both sides spoke about what was best for the UK. They disagreed on what that was but agreed that the UK was the priority.

So whatever kind of Brexit we then looked at should have put the best interests of the UK at the centre of things. How to square off the Irish Border issue was obvious - depart the EU with a continuation deal so that we become Norway or Switzerland or even Turkey - maintain sufficient agreement that the border is not a problem.

May chose not to do that, which left the NI backstop as the solution. Yes it restricts our room to maneuver based on our other decision but preserves the UK at the centre of the deal.

What we have now is a UK Prime Minister who has no interest in the UK as there is no longer a UK from a customs and trading perspective. You said that people in the rUK don't care about NI and that is patently correct as look what their government has done with the backing and support.

It isn't just NI either as the row over Scotland shows. The priority for the UK government is England, and if that means an end to the Union as we already have defacto then so what. So the debate isn't even about Brexit any more, its about the Union. Quite how the clown gets himself out of this self-made trap I don't know. On one hand throw NI out of the union against their will, on the other hand refuse to even consider letting Scotland do what they voted for.

Why should we prioritise the UK? Serious question.

The Scots have voted for devolution. So have the Welsh and NI. They get to decide for themselves what they want while the English can't.

Why shouldn't the English say "this is what we want" and NI or anyone else can either like it or lump it?

If NI choose to vote for Sinn Fein who don't bother to turn up to Parliament, or the DUP who just say No! No! No! to everything then why shouldn't English MPs prioritise England over NI? What is wrong with that?

That's not fair. The DUP did say yes to Brexit.

That was just them saying no to the EU though, wasn't it?

When it came time to choose a form of Brexit they rejected every option.

Philip_Thompson said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Philip_Thompson said:

RochdalePioneers said:

turbotubbs said:

The problem is the nexus of NI, the EU and United Kingdom leaving is an almost unsolvable problem. How do you have no border between Eire and NI and no border between rUK and NI, but a border between the UK and EU? I don't think there is a solution that's easy. Most in the rUK would I suspect not care much if Ireland re-united, but that should be for the people of NI to decide, just as it is for the people of Scotland to decide if they want to be an independent country and for the people of the UK to decide if they wanted to leave the EU. How you deliver those wishes is hard, as no vote is ever 100 %, and there will always be those who are unhappy.

Indeed, and it shines a light onto the question about priorities. All through the referendum both sides spoke about what was best for the UK. They disagreed on what that was but agreed that the UK was the priority.

So whatever kind of Brexit we then looked at should have put the best interests of the UK at the centre of things. How to square off the Irish Border issue was obvious - depart the EU with a continuation deal so that we become Norway or Switzerland or even Turkey - maintain sufficient agreement that the border is not a problem.

May chose not to do that, which left the NI backstop as the solution. Yes it restricts our room to maneuver based on our other decision but preserves the UK at the centre of the deal.

What we have now is a UK Prime Minister who has no interest in the UK as there is no longer a UK from a customs and trading perspective. You said that people in the rUK don't care about NI and that is patently correct as look what their government has done with the backing and support.

It isn't just NI either as the row over Scotland shows. The priority for the UK government is England, and if that means an end to the Union as we already have defacto then so what. So the debate isn't even about Brexit any more, its about the Union. Quite how the clown gets himself out of this self-made trap I don't know. On one hand throw NI out of the union against their will, on the other hand refuse to even consider letting Scotland do what they voted for.

Why should we prioritise the UK? Serious question.

The Scots have voted for devolution. So have the Welsh and NI. They get to decide for themselves what they want while the English can't.

Why shouldn't the English say "this is what we want" and NI or anyone else can either like it or lump it?

If NI choose to vote for Sinn Fein who don't bother to turn up to Parliament, or the DUP who just say No! No! No! to everything then why shouldn't English MPs prioritise England over NI? What is wrong with that?

From an English perspective "why should we prioritise the UK" is a perfectly valid question. Its just that it isn't if you are the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

You and I agree that the union in its current form isn't sustainable, yet the PM and his government insist that it is. How they act though just proves both of us right that it isn't.

Any unionist worth their salts should be outraged that you need an export license to send products from one part of the UK to another. As most of them seem to be cheering it on it is just another example of their hypocrisy that I keep calling out.

Its a perfectly valid question if you are the Prime Minister. Since we live in a democracy the Prime Minister has to try to ensure that at the next election they win 326+ MPs in Westminster.

Due to the way the Northern Irish choose to vote the PM currently has zero MPs in Northern Ireland, zero target seats in Northern Ireland. The range of MPs he could get in Northern Ireland at the next election has a lower bound of zero, an upper bound of zero and a mean, median and mode average of zero.

If the Northern Irish wish to be an integral part of the union, then voting as an integral part of the union for the national parties would be a good starting point.

Philip_Thompson said:

Leon said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Philip_Thompson said:

RochdalePioneers said:

turbotubbs said:

The problem is the nexus of NI, the EU and United Kingdom leaving is an almost unsolvable problem. How do you have no border between Eire and NI and no border between rUK and NI, but a border between the UK and EU? I don't think there is a solution that's easy. Most in the rUK would I suspect not care much if Ireland re-united, but that should be for the people of NI to decide, just as it is for the people of Scotland to decide if they want to be an independent country and for the people of the UK to decide if they wanted to leave the EU. How you deliver those wishes is hard, as no vote is ever 100 %, and there will always be those who are unhappy.

Indeed, and it shines a light onto the question about priorities. All through the referendum both sides spoke about what was best for the UK. They disagreed on what that was but agreed that the UK was the priority.

So whatever kind of Brexit we then looked at should have put the best interests of the UK at the centre of things. How to square off the Irish Border issue was obvious - depart the EU with a continuation deal so that we become Norway or Switzerland or even Turkey - maintain sufficient agreement that the border is not a problem.

May chose not to do that, which left the NI backstop as the solution. Yes it restricts our room to maneuver based on our other decision but preserves the UK at the centre of the deal.

What we have now is a UK Prime Minister who has no interest in the UK as there is no longer a UK from a customs and trading perspective. You said that people in the rUK don't care about NI and that is patently correct as look what their government has done with the backing and support.

It isn't just NI either as the row over Scotland shows. The priority for the UK government is England, and if that means an end to the Union as we already have defacto then so what. So the debate isn't even about Brexit any more, its about the Union. Quite how the clown gets himself out of this self-made trap I don't know. On one hand throw NI out of the union against their will, on the other hand refuse to even consider letting Scotland do what they voted for.

Why should we prioritise the UK? Serious question.

The Scots have voted for devolution. So have the Welsh and NI. They get to decide for themselves what they want while the English can't.

Why shouldn't the English say "this is what we want" and NI or anyone else can either like it or lump it?

If NI choose to vote for Sinn Fein who don't bother to turn up to Parliament, or the DUP who just say No! No! No! to everything then why shouldn't English MPs prioritise England over NI? What is wrong with that?

From an English perspective "why should we prioritise the UK" is a perfectly valid question. Its just that it isn't if you are the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

You and I agree that the union in its current form isn't sustainable, yet the PM and his government insist that it is. How they act though just proves both of us right that it isn't.

Any unionist worth their salts should be outraged that you need an export license to send products from one part of the UK to another. As most of them seem to be cheering it on it is just another example of their hypocrisy that I keep calling out.

I’m watching the excellent Rebellion on Netflix, a drama about the Irish revolution and civil war. It didn’t do very well in the ratings, I suspect because it is brilliantly ambivalent. For once the Brits are not all evil. And the Irish aren’t all heroes.

Some of them are so intensely duplicitous you can’t work out which side they are on. It’s great

What it also shows is that Irish politics - north and south - has been drenched in hypocrisy for centuries. The Irish wanted independence yet they enslaved themselves to a cruel church? And now they are a tax parasite run from Brussels. The British were all about democracy and saving Europe from the Hun yet they sent in criminals to rape Irish women - exactly what they accused the Kaiser of doing in Belgium

Irish politics is horribly complex and fraught, however, so maybe hypocrisy and fudge is necessary, to avoid deeper violence. The EU needs to learn this. Only a fudge, a legalistic hypocrisy, will keep the peace.

It’s not like the EU is allergic to political fudges. It’s basically what they DO

Indeed. Who cares if NI has the same rules as GB, England, Ireland or their own unique rules? They voted for devolution and they can control whether the Protocol stays or goes.

Rochdale wants some zealous religious purity test rather than a solution that works. I want a fudge that works and then move on and stop worrying about NI - and let NI voters decide for themselves.

I vote for a Tory MP and I expect that MP in Parliament to be prioritising our interests they're elected to represent. NI voters have chosen to ostracise themselves from GB - for all the DUPs pretensions that they're "British" they don't stand for or vote for British parties. So let them sort themselves out, I don't care.

Leon said:

Stuartinromford said:

JosiasJessop said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

BBC news going big on Nissan and now Boris being interviewed, complete with Nissan branded jacket sporting 'prime minister'

He really knows how to speak to his red wall voters, and create fury with his opponents

Thats why he is hated so much on here, he is feared as a political opponent.

No, it is because he is a twat and an embarrassment.

Isn't that what you want in a political opponent? That would surely make him so much easier to beat.

One would have thought so if one believed the electorate had a decent choice. The problem at the last GE, as I have said before was the choice was between dumb and dumber and the electorate chose dumb. Fanbois of Johnson do crack me up though. They actually believe in him! He must be pissing himself.

I think the problem many opponents of Johnson have is that, in their dislike of him, they miss his appeal. They hate him, and therefore everyone else must as well. I mean, what's wrong with the voters? This sort of thinking is why so many of their attacks fail.

Personally, I quite like Boris Johnson; he has a certain appeal, and is *different* to other politicians - which again, can be appealing. Then again, I like our postman, but wouldn't want him to be PM. (I did not vote Conservative at 2019 GE.)

Boris is different to most other politicians, and attacks that would floor other politicians leave him unscathed. His opponents need to find a way to counter that - and fast.

And there is hope - "Teflon Tony's" coating eventually wore off: but much of that was his own doing, not his opponents'.

To an extent, that's always been the case- Maggie was unassailable until she started to believe her own hype. Something similar happened to Cameron.

What's slightly different about Boris is that the flaws were obvious before he even became PM. They were also obvious during 2020, hence the steady fall for his party over the year.

Therefore, Labour might as well stick with Starmer. Yes, he got less than nowhere in the first half of 2020, but it's not obvious that anyone else would have done any better. And I stick to my theory that, when we have collectively had our fill of BoJo (5 years, plus or minus 5 years), someone boring, hard-working and... Starmer-like will be just the ticket, rather than a left-wing gob on a stick.

Labour’s problems are way beyond Starmer. What is their offering? What are they selling that is so different to the Tories that it’s worth taking a punt on a party that elected a terrorist-hugging Marxist as a leader, very recently?

The Tories are now peddling quasi-socialist economics - everyone is, around the world, it’s like a war. Keynes is back

Labour can only offer more of the same, but with the added toxicity of their ID politics

‘Vote Labour! We are the same as the Tories but unlike them we also think you’re racist scum’

‘And we think people with penises are often women’

JosiasJessop said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

NerysHughes said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

BBC news going big on Nissan and now Boris being interviewed, complete with Nissan branded jacket sporting 'prime minister'

He really knows how to speak to his red wall voters, and create fury with his opponents

Thats why he is hated so much on here, he is feared as a political opponent.

No, it is because he is a twat and an embarrassment.

Isn't that what you want in a political opponent? That would surely make him so much easier to beat.

One would have thought so if one believed the electorate had a decent choice. The problem at the last GE, as I have said before was the choice was between dumb and dumber and the electorate chose dumb. Fanbois of Johnson do crack me up though. They actually believe in him! He must be pissing himself.

I think the problem many opponents of Johnson have is that, in their dislike of him, they miss his appeal. They hate him, and therefore everyone else must as well. I mean, what's wrong with the voters? This sort of thinking is why so many of their attacks fail.

Personally, I quite like Boris Johnson; he has a certain appeal, and is *different* to other politicians - which again, can be appealing. Then again, I like our postman, but wouldn't want him to be PM. (I did not vote Conservative at 2019 GE.)

Boris is different to most other politicians, and attacks that would floor other politicians leave him unscathed. His opponents need to find a way to counter that - and fast.

And there is hope - "Teflon Tony's" coating eventually wore off: but much of that was his own doing, not his opponents'.