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  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    Pulpstar said:

    Neil said:

    Morris_Dancer said:


    We should try and get the best people into the place, regardless of .. gender ..

    I think you'll find that's the idea behind AWS. (Unless you think women are in general so less suitable to be MPs that they'll only ever comprise 16% of a parliamentary party?)
    Men for whatever reason are more interested in the big "P" Political game generally than women, for whatever reason - this website is a shining example.
    That may well be one reason for under-representation of women and something that AWS will help overcome.
  • state_go_away
    state_go_away Posts: 5,855
    state_go_away said:

    BobaFett said:

    state_go_away said:

    Neil said:

    state_go_away said:

    The problem with AWS is that you are denying (in a very important election) the right of half of that seat's population the right to stand for that seat. Is that something not so important to be sacrificed to allow more women in parliament ? Not to me and hopefully not to the tory party for a long time to come.
    Everyone has the right to stand for parliament in a seat and to stand for a party that represents their policies

    And the problem with not having AWS is that half the population is grossly under-represented in Parliament. Everyone has to decide for themselves which of these problems they think is worse.

    True but under representation of women (for whatever reasons that is) does not deny an individual of either sex standing for parliament -AWS do
    Only if every seat were AWS, which they are not.
    No because ,given we have local politics, you are denying somebody with a strong identity to a seat (they might have lived there all their life ,built up a reputation etc) the chance to stand for that seat ,based on their sex.
    At least Neil is honest enough to admit that there is nothing wrong with AWS
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    taffys said:

    ''The amusing thing is that people who are generally in favour of AWS were generally not a fan of the one woman who made it to the very top.''

    Indeed. A delicious, delicious irony.

    Alanis herself could make a new verse of her song out of it.

  • state_go_away
    state_go_away Posts: 5,855
    Pulpstar said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Question on big fancy dinners: when you have umpteen sets of knives and forks, do you normally start at the outside and work your way in?

    Yes.
    No!! you first use your hands for the first two courses (left for 1st ,right for 2nd) then go as you say with the cutlery
  • bigjohnowls
    bigjohnowls Posts: 22,951
    I think AWS has saved 1000's of lives I am all in favour
  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Neil said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Neil said:

    Morris_Dancer said:


    We should try and get the best people into the place, regardless of .. gender ..

    I think you'll find that's the idea behind AWS. (Unless you think women are in general so less suitable to be MPs that they'll only ever comprise 16% of a parliamentary party?)
    Men for whatever reason are more interested in the big "P" Political game generally than women, for whatever reason - this website is a shining example.
    That may well be one reason for under-representation of women and something that AWS will help overcome.
    Perhaps an AWS for the next post ?

    Then the winner can be abused by the "poster of the year" until she leaves...
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    state_go_away said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Question on big fancy dinners: when you have umpteen sets of knives and forks, do you normally start at the outside and work your way in?

    Yes.
    No!! you first use your hands for the first two courses (left for 1st ,right for 2nd) then go as you say with the cutlery
    What do you do if the first course is a soup ?
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Cheers, Mr. Pulpstar.
  • BobaFett
    BobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @Morris

    That's right. Worth remember to that your bread is to your left, not your right. Can be embarrassing if you end up tucking into the loaf of the lady next to you ;-)
  • taffys
    taffys Posts: 9,753
    She was the wrong sort of woman.

    Indeed. They want the sort of woman who wants a medal just for being a woman.

    Actually, there already is a medal just for being a woman. It is inscribed with the words 'baby on board'
  • BobaFett
    BobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @Pulpstar
    Place the nose gently in the liquid, and inhale.
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    From a purely partisan point of view, of course, I hope the Conservatives go for AWS. It would be a gift for UKIP.
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Mr. Fett, one would be aghast to accidentally nibble on a lady's loaf.

    [Incidentally, it's just for a throwaway line in a book, I haven't been invited to a swanky meal somewhere].
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    Prominent AWS politicians:

    Jacqui Smith.

    I rest my case.
  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Sean_F said:

    From a purely partisan point of view, of course, I hope the Conservatives go for AWS. It would be a gift for UKIP.

    I'd say that was unlikely.
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    edited July 2014
    Pulpstar said:

    Prominent AWS politicians:

    Jacqui Smith.

    I rest my case.

    Prominent non AWS politicians:

    Cyril Smith.

    I rest my case.

  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    The Labour leadership was AWS last time - all weirdo shortlist..

    There was a clear winner..
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    I used to ride my partner's horse "Ginger" at local showjumping (2 foot fences), I won 3rd place at one - perhaps I should have demanded 1st place, male riders are after all severely under-represented at the grass roots of equestrianism.
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    From a purely partisan point of view, of course, I hope the Conservatives go for AWS. It would be a gift for UKIP.

    I'd say that was unlikely.
    I think that depends greatly on whether the Tories end up with fewer women elected after 2015 than they had after 2010. If they actually go backwards then the pressure for AWS will definitely increase.

  • bigjohnowls
    bigjohnowls Posts: 22,951
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Warning_System#British_Rail_AWS
  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    From a purely partisan point of view, of course, I hope the Conservatives go for AWS. It would be a gift for UKIP.

    I'd say that was unlikely.
    I think that depends greatly on whether the Tories end up with fewer women elected after 2015 than they had after 2010. If they actually go backwards then the pressure for AWS will definitely increase.

    The party with the female MP problem will be the LDs.

  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    Neil said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Prominent AWS politicians:

    Jacqui Smith.

    I rest my case.

    Prominent non AWS politicians:

    Cyril Smith.

    I rest my case.

    Non AWS female MPs:

    Mo Mowlam, Margaret Thatcher, Caroline Lucas...

    Cream rises to the top if its good enough.
  • bigjohnowls
    bigjohnowls Posts: 22,951
    Gets coat despite Global Warming
  • BobaFett
    BobaFett Posts: 2,789
    Sri Lankan cycling team get police escort after being spotted cycling down the M74...
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    TGOHF said:

    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    From a purely partisan point of view, of course, I hope the Conservatives go for AWS. It would be a gift for UKIP.

    I'd say that was unlikely.
    I think that depends greatly on whether the Tories end up with fewer women elected after 2015 than they had after 2010. If they actually go backwards then the pressure for AWS will definitely increase.

    The party with the female MP problem will be the LDs.

    Yes, Ms Teather is gone, Jo Swinson looks a very slim chance to hang on.
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    Pulpstar said:

    Neil said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Prominent AWS politicians:

    Jacqui Smith.

    I rest my case.

    Prominent non AWS politicians:

    Cyril Smith.

    I rest my case.

    Non AWS female MPs:

    Mo Mowlam, Margaret Thatcher, Caroline Lucas...

    Cream rises to the top if its good enough.
    Is your argument that women are only good enough to provide about 16% of Tory MPs? I disagree.
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    UKIP MEP's

    29% Women
    8% BAME
    4% Gay

    0% all 3 but there you go. No patronising shortlists needed
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    From a purely partisan point of view, of course, I hope the Conservatives go for AWS. It would be a gift for UKIP.

    I'd say that was unlikely.
    I think that depends greatly on whether the Tories end up with fewer women elected after 2015 than they had after 2010. If they actually go backwards then the pressure for AWS will definitely increase.

    That could happen. And, it would definitely be a self-inflicted wound. Something that would be bound to cause ructions in associations, offend supporters and prompt defections to UKIP.

    But, never interrupt your opponent when he's making a mistake.

  • taffys
    taffys Posts: 9,753
    male riders are after all severely under-represented at the grass roots of equestrianism.

    I notice that women are severely under represented in the lists of personnel losing their lives or getting their limbs blown off in the service of their country in Afghanistan.
  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    isam said:

    UKIP MEP's

    29% Women
    8% BAME
    4% Gay

    0% all 3 but there you go. No patronising shortlists needed

    % fruitcake ?
  • taffys
    taffys Posts: 9,753
    Is your argument that women are only good enough to provide about 16% of Tory MPs? I disagree.

    Is your argument that men are only good enough to provide 16% of people who stay at home and provide nurturing for the children whilst their partner earns the money??
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    taffys said:



    I notice that women are severely under represented in the lists of personnel losing their lives or getting their limbs blown off in the service of their country in Afghanistan.

    It's almost as if women are banned from joining the infantry / special forces etc..
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    2 inequalities do make equality!

    Catchy
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    taffys said:


    Is your argument that men are only good enough to provide 16% of people who stay at home and provide nurturing for the children whilst their partner earns the money??

    No, that's not my argument.
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    Wonder what this evening's Yougov will bring...

    Continuation of the Kipper surge ?
  • taffys
    taffys Posts: 9,753
    ''It's almost as if women are banned from joining the infantry / special forces etc..''

    Well that's completely wrong, if the sexes are the same. Get in the front line sistah, say I.
  • BobaFett
    BobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @Taffys

    Women can't fight in the frontline in the UK can they?
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    Earlier on I said I was in the top stream at my comp, but there was only streaming in Maths I think, as there were different books for different abilty

    I am reminded because each year was split into six groups

    1E 1Q 1U 1A 1L 1S

    2P 2A 2R 2 I 2T 2Y

    Just in case anyone was treated differently!
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    taffys said:

    ''It's almost as if women are banned from joining the infantry / special forces etc..''

    Well that's completely wrong, if the sexes are the same. Get in the front line sistah, say I.

    I think you'll find that many want to. They'll be glad of your support for ending this unjustifiable discrimination.
  • MarkHopkins
    MarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    For those that support AWS, would you also support...

    All black shortlist?
    All muslim shortlist?
    All ginger shortlist?
    All disabled shortlist?

  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    MarkHopkins said:

    For those that support AWS, would you also support...

    All black shortlist?
    All muslim shortlist?
    All ginger shortlist?
    All disabled shortlist?

    All white shortlist?
    All male shortlist?
    All straight shortlist?
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    Neil said:

    taffys said:

    ''It's almost as if women are banned from joining the infantry / special forces etc..''

    Well that's completely wrong, if the sexes are the same. Get in the front line sistah, say I.

    I think you'll find that many want to. They'll be glad of your support for ending this unjustifiable discrimination.
    So long as they can pass the same physical tests as the boys I have no issue with that.
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    isam said:

    MarkHopkins said:

    For those that support AWS, would you also support...

    All black shortlist?
    All muslim shortlist?
    All ginger shortlist?
    All disabled shortlist?

    All white shortlist?
    All male shortlist?
    All straight shortlist?
    You think there's a shortage of straight, white men in Parliament? Straight maybe but surely not the other two.

  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Neil said:

    taffys said:

    ''It's almost as if women are banned from joining the infantry / special forces etc..''

    Well that's completely wrong, if the sexes are the same. Get in the front line sistah, say I.

    I think you'll find that many want to. They'll be glad of your support for ending this unjustifiable discrimination.
    Is there a queue of female tennis players gagging to play 5 sets at Wimbledon - they get the same prize money as the men..

  • surbiton
    surbiton Posts: 13,549
    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    UKIP MEP's

    29% Women
    8% BAME
    4% Gay

    0% all 3 but there you go. No patronising shortlists needed

    % fruitcake ?
    100%
  • Lennon
    Lennon Posts: 1,815
    edited July 2014
    TGOHF said:


    The party with the female MP problem will be the LDs.

    Corrected that for you...
  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    He must be lying right ?

    Adam Smith ‏@adamtimsmith 1m

    David Cameron tells @tombradby "If Scotland leaves the UK then Scotland is leaving the pound" watch exclusive interview on @itvnews 6.30pm
  • NickPalmer
    NickPalmer Posts: 21,724
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    FPT

    I am surprised to see people attacking the NHS on the basis that it is 'in deficit'. Surely any universal health care system by its very nature must be in deficit as it should be providing care for those who cannot afford it as well as those who can. It is the job of government in a civilised country to make up the difference. Moreover since a balance when dealing with such a body is almost impossible, then surely a health service which is slightly in deficit is better than one that is in profit - 'making money' out of treating people.

    I do think there are huge flaws in the UK NHS model but the idea it should make a profit seems strange to say the least.

    I don't think even the driest Conservatives actually propose that the NHS should make a profit, to be returned to the Government for spending on missiles or whatever. Deficit in this context means that the money provided by the Government is not proving sufficient to meet the expected service. The only options are to reduce expectations of service (unpopular), provide the same service for less cost by being very efficient (sounds good but difficult) or increase funding (popular but obviously not infinitely extensible). NICE, which I think was one of the last Government's best ideas in principle, is designed to try to rationalise these choices (e.g. a treatment which provides a year's additional healthy living is currently thought to be worth £25,000 per head or so of government funding, whereas one that provides only 6 months is not - clearly the figure could change if we became richer or poorer as a country).
  • BobaFett
    BobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @Taffys

    The justification for women being prevented from fighting in the front line is not physicality AIUI, as they could in theory be asked to pass the same tests (few would perhaps, but some may). It is because men favour them and may therefore jeapoardise battle situations to help them. Whether this has any truth in it I do not know but as I understand it that is a reason given.
  • JackW
    JackW Posts: 14,787
    surbiton said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    UKIP MEP's

    29% Women
    8% BAME
    4% Gay

    0% all 3 but there you go. No patronising shortlists needed

    % fruitcake ?
    100%
    Excellent .... there are few joys in life better than afternoon tea and a substantial lump of fruitcake.

    I thoroughly recommend the indulgence to fellow PBers.

  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    YouGov: How voters have seen party leaders on a left/right scale since 2002 - very interesting:

    twitter.com/YouGov/status/491971653396889601/photo/1
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Mr. Fett, I've heard that line as well.

    Worth mentioning female muscle is different (inferior, to be honest) to male muscle. That's why women, proportionally, have more injuries related to carrying heavy loads than men.

    But it's horses for courses. Women, I think, make better fighter pilots than men. [Be great to see a few in F1 as well. Be interesting to see if Simona de Silvestro gets a Sauber seat].
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    edited July 2014
    Neil said:

    isam said:

    MarkHopkins said:

    For those that support AWS, would you also support...

    All black shortlist?
    All muslim shortlist?
    All ginger shortlist?
    All disabled shortlist?

    All white shortlist?
    All male shortlist?
    All straight shortlist?
    You think there's a shortage of straight, white men in Parliament? Straight maybe but surely not the other two.

    Its all just absolute nonsense.. you don't correct inequality by imposing inequality. It makes me feel sorry for women that win this way as they can always have the tokenism card thrown at them, even if they are the best person for the job and would have won anyway.

    I'd have so much respect for a women who refused to stand in an AWS

    I can understand if it was 50/50, absolutely nothing to choose between a man and a woman, and the woman got the job to sort the gender balance, you have to try and even things up a bit, but AWS are an insult to women IMO, same as any other closed list
  • RobD
    RobD Posts: 60,608
    TGOHF said:

    He must be lying right ?

    Adam Smith ‏@adamtimsmith 1m

    David Cameron tells @tombradby "If Scotland leaves the UK then Scotland is leaving the pound" watch exclusive interview on @itvnews 6.30pm

    Bluff and bluster. We all know Salmond has the final say in this, and all other matters.
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    TGOHF said:

    Neil said:

    taffys said:

    ''It's almost as if women are banned from joining the infantry / special forces etc..''

    Well that's completely wrong, if the sexes are the same. Get in the front line sistah, say I.

    I think you'll find that many want to. They'll be glad of your support for ending this unjustifiable discrimination.
    Is there a queue of female tennis players gagging to play 5 sets at Wimbledon - they get the same prize money as the men..

    In a country where, decades after the Equal Pay Act, the gender pay gap is nearly 20%, where women are seriously under-represented at the top of professions and in boardrooms *this* is what exercises you?

    I am starting to see why tim thought you Tories might have a problem with women.
  • Hertsmere_Pubgoer
    Hertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476
    BobaFett said:

    @Taffys

    The justification for women being prevented from fighting in the front line is not physicality AIUI, as they could in theory be asked to pass the same tests (few would perhaps, but some may). It is because men favour them and may therefore jeapoardise battle situations to help them. Whether this has any truth in it I do not know but as I understand it that is a reason given.

    IVSTR reading somewhere that precisely that had occurred with the Israeli forces.
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    TGOHF said:

    He must be lying right ?

    Adam Smith ‏@adamtimsmith 1m

    David Cameron tells @tombradby "If Scotland leaves the UK then Scotland is leaving the pound" watch exclusive interview on @itvnews 6.30pm

    Well, that is demonstrably wrong. There is no way Cameron can stop an independent country from using whatever currency it likes. That's the point of independence.

  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    edited July 2014
    isam said:

    Neil said:

    isam said:

    MarkHopkins said:

    For those that support AWS, would you also support...

    All black shortlist?
    All muslim shortlist?
    All ginger shortlist?
    All disabled shortlist?

    All white shortlist?
    All male shortlist?
    All straight shortlist?
    You think there's a shortage of straight, white men in Parliament? Straight maybe but surely not the other two.

    Its all just absolute nonsense.. you don't correct inequality by imposing inequality.
    And yet AWS is working for Labour. Go figure.
  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    He must be lying right ?

    Adam Smith ‏@adamtimsmith 1m

    David Cameron tells @tombradby "If Scotland leaves the UK then Scotland is leaving the pound" watch exclusive interview on @itvnews 6.30pm

    Well, that is demonstrably wrong. There is no way Cameron can stop an independent country from using whatever currency it likes. That's the point of independence.

    Will have to wait for the interview but I assume he means no Scottish input into the currency - ie dollarization.

  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Neil said:

    isam said:

    Neil said:

    isam said:

    MarkHopkins said:

    For those that support AWS, would you also support...

    All black shortlist?
    All muslim shortlist?
    All ginger shortlist?
    All disabled shortlist?

    All white shortlist?
    All male shortlist?
    All straight shortlist?
    You think there's a shortage of straight, white men in Parliament? Straight maybe but surely not the other two.

    Its all just absolute nonsense.. you don't correct inequality by imposing inequality.
    And yet AWS is working for Labour. Go figure.
    Yes worked so well they have never had a female leader and are out of power.

    Apart from that a roaring success.
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    TGOHF said:

    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    He must be lying right ?

    Adam Smith ‏@adamtimsmith 1m

    David Cameron tells @tombradby "If Scotland leaves the UK then Scotland is leaving the pound" watch exclusive interview on @itvnews 6.30pm

    Well, that is demonstrably wrong. There is no way Cameron can stop an independent country from using whatever currency it likes. That's the point of independence.

    Will have to wait for the interview but I assume he means no Scottish input into the currency - ie dollarization.

    Terrible use of quote marks if so.

  • maaarsh
    maaarsh Posts: 3,602
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Fett, I've heard that line as well.

    Worth mentioning female muscle is different (inferior, to be honest) to male muscle. That's why women, proportionally, have more injuries related to carrying heavy loads than men.

    But it's horses for courses. Women, I think, make better fighter pilots than men. [Be great to see a few in F1 as well. Be interesting to see if Simona de Silvestro gets a Sauber seat].

    She'd need an AWS to manage that. Her record is woeful. Nearly as bad as Suzie.
  • No_Offence_Alan
    No_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,118
    Neil said:

    isam said:

    Neil said:

    isam said:

    MarkHopkins said:

    For those that support AWS, would you also support...

    All black shortlist?
    All muslim shortlist?
    All ginger shortlist?
    All disabled shortlist?

    All white shortlist?
    All male shortlist?
    All straight shortlist?
    You think there's a shortage of straight, white men in Parliament? Straight maybe but surely not the other two.

    Its all just absolute nonsense.. you don't correct inequality by imposing inequality.
    And yet AWS is working for Labour. Go figure.
    And yet Labour still stand male candidates against female MPs of other parties.
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Neil said:

    Well, that is demonstrably wrong. There is no way Cameron can stop an independent country from using whatever currency it likes. That's the point of independence.

    I think he's just repeating exactly what Osborne said in February:

    "If Scotland walks away from the UK, it walks away from the UK pound."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26166794
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    No_Offence_Alan said:

    Neil said:

    isam said:

    Neil said:

    isam said:

    MarkHopkins said:

    For those that support AWS, would you also support...

    All black shortlist?
    All muslim shortlist?
    All ginger shortlist?
    All disabled shortlist?

    All white shortlist?
    All male shortlist?
    All straight shortlist?
    You think there's a shortage of straight, white men in Parliament? Straight maybe but surely not the other two.

    Its all just absolute nonsense.. you don't correct inequality by imposing inequality.
    And yet AWS is working for Labour. Go figure.
    And yet Labour still stand male candidates against female MPs of other parties.
    Are you sure you've understood the point of AWS?

  • kle4
    kle4 Posts: 99,113
    isam said:

    Neil said:

    isam said:

    MarkHopkins said:

    For those that support AWS, would you also support...

    All black shortlist?
    All muslim shortlist?
    All ginger shortlist?
    All disabled shortlist?

    All white shortlist?
    All male shortlist?
    All straight shortlist?
    You think there's a shortage of straight, white men in Parliament? Straight maybe but surely not the other two.

    Its all just absolute nonsense.. you don't correct inequality by imposing inequality. It makes me feel sorry for women that win this way as they can always have the tokenism card thrown at them, even if they are the best person for the job and would have won anyway.

    I'd have so much respect for a women who refused to stand in an AWS

    I can understand if it was 50/50, absolutely nothing to choose between a man and a woman, and the woman got the job to sort the gender balance, you have to try and even things up a bit, but AWS are an insult to women IMO, same as any other closed list
    In this I have to agree. It's an open admission that they view there is no other way women will be selected unless a party has no choice but to pick one, that parties and people will not do so unless forced, which is an awfully pessimistic way to approach things, and that not even factoring problems where there are complaints that AWS are so selectively imposed, while male former SpaDs can get given seats with no question of an AWS being needed there. There's an imbalance, presently, but you address that by removing barriers and changing attitudes, not saying 'You idiots don't choose enough women; I could try to convince you a woman would be best, but instead, just do what I say'.
  • MikeK
    MikeK Posts: 9,053
    You probably know it (I've been away all day) but Nigel has started a major reshuffle of spokesmen/women to give clearer direction for the forthcoming GE 2015 campaign:

    http://www.ukip.org/ukip_leader_nigel_farage_announces_two_key_frontbench_spokesmen_roles_with_more_to_follow
  • Charles
    Charles Posts: 35,758
    isam said:

    Its easier for anti UKIP types to vote for other parties in a by election when their own party has almost no chance of winning. I don't think that applies to seats like S Thanet or Thurrock, where Lab>Con or vice versa could actually cost their party the seat.

    That said I don't believe that there was significant anti UKIP voting in Newark. The various theories contradict each other.

    Cons Lost 9%
    UKIP gained 22%
    Lab + LD lost 22%

    and the Labs/LDs voted Con?

    600 young Con activists invaded Newark to get the Conservative vote out as well didn't they?

    Nah!

    I actually think Farage will absolutely piss up if he stands in South Thanet, just a case of how far he wins by


    Isam, you are missing the point looking at the campaign as a whole. Of course UKIP gained share.

    It's only based, IIRC, on a poll about a week out to result, but it looks like there was a shift in that time with Labour declining and the Tories gaining. Given that fact pattern, it's reasonable to suppos tactical voting - the alternative being that the Tories convinced bunch of Labour votes that George is to bee's knees and that Miliband isn't.
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Mr. Maaarsh, really? I thought she'd done a bit better (don't follow motorsport outside of F1, though).

    Mr. Neil, I thought the gender pay gap was exaggerated if not nonsense (ie there is a gap but it's comparing people in different jobs).
  • Smarmeron
    Smarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @kle4
    AWS is nowhere near ideal, but Parliament needs more female voices, and a complex set of circumstances means it will never be so, without some form of swaying the odds.

  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    Charles said:

    isam said:

    Its easier for anti UKIP types to vote for other parties in a by election when their own party has almost no chance of winning. I don't think that applies to seats like S Thanet or Thurrock, where Lab>Con or vice versa could actually cost their party the seat.

    That said I don't believe that there was significant anti UKIP voting in Newark. The various theories contradict each other.

    Cons Lost 9%
    UKIP gained 22%
    Lab + LD lost 22%

    and the Labs/LDs voted Con?

    600 young Con activists invaded Newark to get the Conservative vote out as well didn't they?

    Nah!

    I actually think Farage will absolutely piss up if he stands in South Thanet, just a case of how far he wins by


    Isam, you are missing the point looking at the campaign as a whole. Of course UKIP gained share.

    It's only based, IIRC, on a poll about a week out to result, but it looks like there was a shift in that time with Labour declining and the Tories gaining. Given that fact pattern, it's reasonable to suppos tactical voting - the alternative being that the Tories convinced bunch of Labour votes that George is to bee's knees and that Miliband isn't.
    Not a significant amount though IMO, and no one can no for sure

    In GE marginal it would be absolute madness for a Con to vote Lab to stop UKIP or vice versa
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    kle4 said:

    It's an open admission that they view there is no other way women will be selected unless a party has no choice but to pick one, that parties and people will not do so unless forced, which is an awfully pessimistic way to approach things

    What other approach has been successful at increasing the proportion of MPs who are women to something even approaching the proportion of the electorate they represent?
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    Neil said:

    isam said:

    Neil said:

    isam said:

    MarkHopkins said:

    For those that support AWS, would you also support...

    All black shortlist?
    All muslim shortlist?
    All ginger shortlist?
    All disabled shortlist?

    All white shortlist?
    All male shortlist?
    All straight shortlist?
    You think there's a shortage of straight, white men in Parliament? Straight maybe but surely not the other two.

    Its all just absolute nonsense.. you don't correct inequality by imposing inequality.
    And yet AWS is working for Labour. Go figure.
    Yeah what an inspiring bunch
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    edited July 2014
    MikeK said:

    You probably know it (I've been away all day) but Nigel has started a major reshuffle of spokesmen/women to give clearer direction for the forthcoming GE 2015 campaign:

    http://www.ukip.org/ukip_leader_nigel_farage_announces_two_key_frontbench_spokesmen_roles_with_more_to_follow

    UKIP with a mixed race migration spokesman!!

    Great stuff...

    Was there an all BAME shortlist?!
  • Charles
    Charles Posts: 35,758
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    FPT

    I am surprised to see people attacking the NHS on the basis that it is 'in deficit'. Surely any universal health care system by its very nature must be in deficit as it should be providing care for those who cannot afford it as well as those who can. It is the job of government in a civilised country to make up the difference. Moreover since a balance when dealing with such a body is almost impossible, then surely a health service which is slightly in deficit is better than one that is in profit - 'making money' out of treating people.

    I do think there are huge flaws in the UK NHS model but the idea it should make a profit seems strange to say the least.

    I haven't read the last thread, but surely deficit in this context means keeping within budget? That's not an unreasonable ask
  • Smarmeron
    Smarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @isam
    "Inspirational" politics is proven to be an electoral turnoff in party polling.
    Of course, thankfully polls aren't always correct. and we may have the odd surprise in the coming months.
  • BobaFett
    BobaFett Posts: 2,789
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Fett, I've heard that line as well.

    Worth mentioning female muscle is different (inferior, to be honest) to male muscle. That's why women, proportionally, have more injuries related to carrying heavy loads than men.

    But it's horses for courses. Women, I think, make better fighter pilots than men. [Be great to see a few in F1 as well. Be interesting to see if Simona de Silvestro gets a Sauber seat].

    There are some jobs that men are clearly more suited to, because of gender differences - that only 4 in 10,000 builders are women isn't down to naked prejudice, it's down to physicality and probably preference (when I quoted this stat to my wife she said "what woman would want to be a builder?")

    But politics does not and should not fall into that category. Quite the opposite in fact. We need it to be representative. Voluntary approaches have demonstrably failed miserably so AWS is the least worse solution. It's rather like quotas the Saffer cricket and rugby teams - some certainly lost out because of them but it's very hard in hindsight to argue they were unsuccessful.
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    Interesting new poll by yougov on where party leaders are placed on the spectrum, Clegg closest to the average voter, previously was Blair
    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/07/23/britains-changing-political-spectrum/
  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,076
    BobaFett said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Fett, I've heard that line as well.

    Worth mentioning female muscle is different (inferior, to be honest) to male muscle. That's why women, proportionally, have more injuries related to carrying heavy loads than men.

    But it's horses for courses. Women, I think, make better fighter pilots than men. [Be great to see a few in F1 as well. Be interesting to see if Simona de Silvestro gets a Sauber seat].

    There are some jobs that men are clearly more suited to, because of gender differences - that only 4 in 10,000 builders are women isn't down to naked prejudice, it's down to physicality and probably preference (when I quoted this stat to my wife she said "what woman would want to be a builder?")

    But politics does not and should not fall into that category. Quite the opposite in fact. We need it to be representative. Voluntary approaches have demonstrably failed miserably so AWS is the least worse solution. It's rather like quotas the Saffer cricket and rugby teams - some certainly lost out because of them but it's very hard in hindsight to argue they were unsuccessful.
    The Soviets reckoned female soldiers coped better with the cold on the Eastern Front.
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    Which post 1980 party leader are you, very unscientific survey, but I got John Major
    http://usvsth3m.com/post/92530899578/which-post-1980-party-leader-are-you
  • Smarmeron
    Smarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited July 2014
    BobaFett

    Whether it is nature or nurture Women do think differently from men, and in a parliament made out of a high percentage of "clones", any difference is invaluable.
    (scientific papers are available, but as a Pragmatic Communists we just mark it down as "irrelevant" and get back to drinking)
  • taffys
    taffys Posts: 9,753
    (when I quoted this stat to my wife she said "what woman would want to be a builder?")

    Perhaps women say this about being politicians...??
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    Matt Ridley given the Free Enterprise Award by the IEA, he does right some interesting Times articles, but seems a little odd given he chaired Northern Rock at the time of its bailout
    http://www.thejournal.co.uk/news/northumberland-peer-matt-ridley-gets-7478458
  • MikeK
    MikeK Posts: 9,053
    Charles said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    FPT

    I am surprised to see people attacking the NHS on the basis that it is 'in deficit'. Surely any universal health care system by its very nature must be in deficit as it should be providing care for those who cannot afford it as well as those who can. It is the job of government in a civilised country to make up the difference. Moreover since a balance when dealing with such a body is almost impossible, then surely a health service which is slightly in deficit is better than one that is in profit - 'making money' out of treating people.

    I do think there are huge flaws in the UK NHS model but the idea it should make a profit seems strange to say the least.

    I haven't read the last thread, but surely deficit in this context means keeping within budget? That's not an unreasonable ask
    I quite like your blogs @Richard_Tyndall and most keep an even keel. However on the NHS you are way off base. The NHS' deficit is ENORMOUS, it's Debt is ENORMOUS, the salaries of the heads of NHS trusts is ENORMOUS. The salaries of staff (Not Doctors) - many who cannot speak English - has been frozen. Most hospitals are quite filthy, and the whole system is grinding to a halt. To get good treatment for your ailments you have to pay privately at the start, from there on NHS doctors will treat you with some respect. The UK model of medical care is going down the drain, it's unsustainable in the short run and the long run.

    It's a great pity that successive governments have drummed into the UK population that The NHS is the best thing in the world and that all countries envy our health system; they don't, most run their systems to keep it out of debt. Thing is, those other systems are not free from cradle to grave and therein lies their advantage.
  • FrankBooth
    FrankBooth Posts: 10,022
    HYUFD said:

    Matt Ridley given the Free Enterprise Award by the IEA, he does right some interesting Times articles, but seems a little odd given he chaired Northern Rock at the time of its bailout
    http://www.thejournal.co.uk/news/northumberland-peer-matt-ridley-gets-7478458

    Even more odd was the peerage he got from David Cameron. There's nothing particularly wrong with bringing down a bank in Cameron's Britain though, so long as you aren't abusing drugs and male prostitutes like Reverend Flowers. Such things just aren't done.
  • MikeK
    MikeK Posts: 9,053
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting new poll by yougov on where party leaders are placed on the spectrum, Clegg closest to the average voter, previously was Blair
    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/07/23/britains-changing-political-spectrum/

    Are you saying that the average voter is lying fool?
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    Frank I think he inherited his peerage from his father and was voted by his peers to stay on as a hereditary, but I may be wrong
  • FrankBooth
    FrankBooth Posts: 10,022
    Does Cameron have some kind of legal basis for his claim about Scotland walking away from the pound? Whether or not a currency union was sensible, if the Scots haggle what can he do?
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    FrankBooth said:

    Does Cameron have some kind of legal basis for his claim about Scotland walking away from the pound? Whether or not a currency union was sensible, if the Scots haggle what can he do?

    Tell them to stuff their own haggis.
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    Neil said:

    isam said:

    Neil said:

    isam said:

    MarkHopkins said:

    For those that support AWS, would you also support...

    All black shortlist?
    All muslim shortlist?
    All ginger shortlist?
    All disabled shortlist?

    All white shortlist?
    All male shortlist?
    All straight shortlist?
    You think there's a shortage of straight, white men in Parliament? Straight maybe but surely not the other two.

    Its all just absolute nonsense.. you don't correct inequality by imposing inequality.
    And yet AWS is working for Labour. Go figure.
    "Working" in the very narrow sense that it increases the proportion of left wing MPs who are women. What I want are (a) MPs who are right wing (b) MPs who are honest and competent. Their sex is immaterial.
  • Luckyguy1983
    Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,089
    This is encouraging, though I still think it is less likely than the odds suggest, because there will be a big 'keep out UKIP' vote, and it will be clear by the time of voting who the biggest anti-UKIP candidate is. Though having said that, at least the Tories have been good enough to shoot themselves in the foot by selecting a former leader of the party.

    UKIP toxicity is unfair, but it is real. I still say they should blindside everyone by Farage stepping down as leader (in favour of a female leader with a softer image). It would also enable him to concentrate on Thanet South a bit more too. Can you imagine the debates? It's theoretically Farage's strong suit, but everyone else in the debate would lay into him with racism case studies and not let him get a single word in. They couldn't do that with Suzanne Evans or Diane James to nearly the same extent. Well they could, but laying into a woman like that would go down like a warm bucket of sick with the public.
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    MikeK Well there is not really such a thing as the 'average voter' but since Blair and Clegg have been in government ever since 1997 with the exception of the 3 doomed Brown years, it seems pretty accurate
  • Gasman
    Gasman Posts: 132
    BobaFett said:



    There are some jobs that men are clearly more suited to, because of gender differences - that only 4 in 10,000 builders are women isn't down to naked prejudice, it's down to physicality and probably preference (when I quoted this stat to my wife she said "what woman would want to be a builder?")

    But politics does not and should not fall into that category. Quite the opposite in fact. We need it to be representative. Voluntary approaches have demonstrably failed miserably so AWS is the least worse solution. It's rather like quotas the Saffer cricket and rugby teams - some certainly lost out because of them but it's very hard in hindsight to argue they were unsuccessful.

    I think it's fairly likely that fewer women want to stand for parliament than men (or go into politics at all). Although some MPs are able to put in remarkably little time and effort once elected by and large it requires huge amounts of your time and dedication over a prolonged period. I would suggest that that would attract more men than women. That alone would make the aim of 50% women in parliament wrong (unless you also want the correct proportions of gingers, idiots and criminals for the population).

    With regard to the gender pay gap, there essentially isn't one in this country. There is a motherhood pay gap - if you take a couple of years out and then work part time you will correctly earn less than your full time colleague who hasn't taken career breaks.

    Choices have consequences. Cake can be had OR eaten. Equality of outcome is an awful aim, because people are all different, with different preferences.

    And @Neil, the Wimbledon thing rankles because was a whole load of tedious whining about how unfair it was that women got paid less for doing less work.
  • BobaFett
    BobaFett Posts: 2,789
    Sean_F said:

    Neil said:

    isam said:

    Neil said:

    isam said:

    MarkHopkins said:

    For those that support AWS, would you also support...

    All black shortlist?
    All muslim shortlist?
    All ginger shortlist?
    All disabled shortlist?

    All white shortlist?
    All male shortlist?
    All straight shortlist?
    You think there's a shortage of straight, white men in Parliament? Straight maybe but surely not the other two.

    Its all just absolute nonsense.. you don't correct inequality by imposing inequality.
    And yet AWS is working for Labour. Go figure.
    "Working" in the very narrow sense that it increases the proportion of left wing MPs who are women. What I want are (a) MPs who are right wing (b) MPs who are honest and competent. Their sex is immaterial.
    So by that token Sean you would presumably be content with a parliament that was 100% white male, as long as all the MPs were rightwing?
  • kle4
    kle4 Posts: 99,113
    MikeK said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting new poll by yougov on where party leaders are placed on the spectrum, Clegg closest to the average voter, previously was Blair
    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/07/23/britains-changing-political-spectrum/

    Are you saying that the average voter is lying fool?
    More likely that a lot of people do not like to think of themselves as viciously partisan and regard themselves as centrish even as the general public mood shifts toward what ideologues consider more left or right directions, and as Clegg is hated by those who are self identified as the left, and still not trusted by the right, he ends up pretty much in the middle, where people naturally place themselves. Shows the uselessness of trying to seem dad in the centre, as people probably won't believe it and reward you, even if they trusted the LDs.
  • kle4
    kle4 Posts: 99,113
    HYUFD said:

    Which post 1980 party leader are you, very unscientific survey, but I got John Major
    http://usvsth3m.com/post/92530899578/which-post-1980-party-leader-are-you

    I’m Robert Maclennan. Never heard of him.
  • MyBurningEars
    MyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting new poll by yougov on where party leaders are placed on the spectrum, Clegg closest to the average voter, previously was Blair
    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/07/23/britains-changing-political-spectrum/


    I did some GIS stuff with the 2010 election data. The average LAB voter was indeed northern, slightly more than the average BNP voter, while the average CON was indeed southern (as were UKIP, with the Greens even further down), there's no prizes for guessing where the SNP had its heartland, and the party sitting almost bang-on the national barycenter was the Lib Dems.

    (If anyone has more recent data - from polling, or better for being finer, the European elections, then I'd love to re-run the analysis.)
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    BobaFett said:

    Sean_F said:

    Neil said:

    isam said:

    Neil said:

    isam said:

    MarkHopkins said:

    For those that support AWS, would you also support...

    All black shortlist?
    All muslim shortlist?
    All ginger shortlist?
    All disabled shortlist?

    All white shortlist?
    All male shortlist?
    All straight shortlist?
    You think there's a shortage of straight, white men in Parliament? Straight maybe but surely not the other two.

    Its all just absolute nonsense.. you don't correct inequality by imposing inequality.
    And yet AWS is working for Labour. Go figure.
    "Working" in the very narrow sense that it increases the proportion of left wing MPs who are women. What I want are (a) MPs who are right wing (b) MPs who are honest and competent. Their sex is immaterial.
    So by that token Sean you would presumably be content with a parliament that was 100% white male, as long as all the MPs were rightwing?

    Or 100% female. The important thing is they're right wing.

    Of course a 100% right wing Parliament is a fantasy. 55% would be fine.

  • manofkent2014
    manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited July 2014
    Apologies if this has previously been pointed out but Lord Ashcroft very helpfully asked the question in his Thanet South poll about which parties people would definitely not vote for. The response was:

    Libdems 67%
    UKIP 52%
    Labour 50%
    Con 49%

    Now given that UKIP are not substantially more disliked than any other party the idea that there will be a particular anti-UKIP vote is questionable. Putting aside the surrealism of the idea of Labour supporters voting tactically for the Tory or Tory supporters voting tactically for Labour, given this is a three way marginal (unlike Newark) which candidate will anti UKIP voters vote for? Will Labour voters vote for the Tory denying Labour the chance of winning in what will be a close election nationally or will Tory voters vote for a Labour Party candidate pretty much ensuring the Tories will lose the seat? The idea of anti-UKIP tactical voting in this case is highly implausible. The only possible tactical voting would be the sad rump of Libdem voters but once again who do they vote for and given they are down to 4% in the poll would they really matter?

    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Thanet-South-July-2014-Full-tables.pdf

    PS Given that Cameron still believes UKIP supporters will come running back to him at the general election and Labour benefit from UKIP winning such seats will either major party put in the resources that UKIP surely will to win the seat?
  • NickPalmer
    NickPalmer Posts: 21,724
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting new poll by yougov on where party leaders are placed on the spectrum, Clegg closest to the average voter, previously was Blair
    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/07/23/britains-changing-political-spectrum/

    I came up with Callaghan. Hmm.

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