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After the Portugal decision the front pages are entirely predictable – politicalbetting.com

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,456
    Nigelb said:

    There's also the well known propensity not to see (the basketball gorilla video).
    Human perception is extremely unreliable in particular circumstances.
    For unseen gorillas on a basketball court, CF aliens in spacecraft, and leaks from labs
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,243

    Wow, another alumnus!

    Both it, and it's predecessor college were very good for Law, I believe. Friend of mine did his solicitors course there.

    And Almost a Proper University, another friend, who at one time lectured there, told me.
    Ah, sorry to disappoint, but by 'there' I meant Chelmsford (growing up) not APU. I have a couple of friends who went there (ARU, by then, I think) for surveying (of the building type) degrees and now both doing very nicely.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    Sometimes you've got to admire the First Minister's chutzpah. The woman who says we need independence because the UK Government makes bad decisions for Scotland was not only taking the same bad decisions but making a virtue of it.

    https://stephendaisley.substack.com/p/nicola-sturgeon-wants-to-be-friends
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,814
    edited June 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    .

    MaxPB said:

    Old man, speaks like an old man. Big surprise. Idiot.
    I am not an old man but side with Malc here. I know people in their 30s who are unvaccinated who start off by saying they’ve been two busy tk organise it. And after a few drinks start talking about Pfizer changing your dna and making you infertile.

    There are two groups who might get a bit more latitude in being slow. The self employed. And single parents, given you are prohibited from taking children with you to the vaccine site. Anyone else is getting a free pass from their employer to disappear and have a vaccine when they need to.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,243
    Leon said:

    For unseen gorillas on a basketball court, CF aliens in spacecraft, and leaks from labs
    Or, indeed, being so busy counting lab leaks, we fail to see the bats and pangolins dancing past. :wink:
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,127
    Selebian said:

    Or, indeed, being so busy counting lab leaks, we fail to see the bats and pangolins dancing past. :wink:
    We're one step away from Handjob Cabin here.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,699

    While everyone is busy catastrophizing and every single thing is going wrong in every single way...

    CON: 46% (+3)
    LAB: 30% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (+1)
    LIB: 6% (-2)

    @YouGov
    - Changes w May 28

    For the record, I still think we're going ahead with June 21 as planned. Garde ta foy!

    That's great, one thing that isn't going wrong are your beloved ratings, but cases are rising at there isn't a gnats chance that 21 June will go ahead "as planned". None whatsoever. There MAY be some face saving relaxations but things on the epidemiological front are not rosey.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,200

    I think we definitely need another thread on how well SKS is doing and how good he looked in the Piers Morgan interview.

    16 points behind after 11+ years of a Tory Government. I doubt this has ever happened before
    The politically engaged liked the interview, but the general public didn’t watch. YouGov filter out the politically engaged so I’d expect other polls to be closer
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,764

    Possibly 2 August for 4.0 ie +6 weeks from 21 June, schools will then be closed for a month so this may give the Government some additional room for relaxation, vaccines will be further progressed and come 1 September when the schools reopen, the vaccines injected by 31 July will be in full effect.

    Masks will continue to be required on public transport, in shops and when not seated in hospitality venues.

    Not expecting any significant relaxation on foreign travel this year, however.
    Yes I expect masks to stay for an indefinite period, especially with various Greek letter pox strains tearing about the place.

    Sadly. I absolutely despise wearing a mask. It triggers my claustrophobia.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,243

    We're one step away from Handjob Cabin here.
    Being presently on a work VPN, I don't think I dare google that for enlightenment!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,200

    Yes I expect masks to stay for an indefinite period, especially with various Greek letter pox strains tearing about the place.

    Sadly. I absolutely despise wearing a mask. It triggers my claustrophobia.
    Imagine how those ghosts in your house feel with sheets over their heads!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,658

    I think we definitely need another thread on how well SKS is doing and how good he looked in the Piers Morgan interview.

    16 points behind after 11+ years of a Tory Government. I doubt this has ever happened before
    And we wonder why the govt is making "extreme caution" and "just in case" noises.

    The people are lapping it up. The govt would be bonkers to change and bonkers also to open up fully on June 21st as people would then not need their guiding hand as much.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,747
    DougSeal said:

    That's great, one thing that isn't going wrong are your beloved ratings, but cases are rising at there isn't a gnats chance that 21 June will go ahead "as planned". None whatsoever. There MAY be some face saving relaxations but things on the epidemiological front are not rosey.
    But we don't care about cases. We care about hospitalisations and deaths. Supposedly.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,494
    edited June 2021
    Selebian said:

    Ah, sorry to disappoint, but by 'there' I meant Chelmsford (growing up) not APU. I have a couple of friends who went there (ARU, by then, I think) for surveying (of the building type) degrees and now both doing very nicely.
    Not a bad place to grow up, I suspect. Green space in the middle of the city and plenty of open country around.
    And the cricket ground right in the middle.

    I did a part-time MA as a mature student.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    It really doesn't matter right now what people want.

    They still haven't worked out that, to get what you want, you have to stop supporting those people who are denying it to you. On whatever pretext.

    Maybe one day they will. But that day is clearly not today.
    He will quite possibly lift all restrictions and maintain government guidance on working from home. And will go up 10% in the polls for allowing everyone to party whilst not allowing them to be pushed around by their bosses.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Don't be silly. The ones that are stupid are those who secretly disagree with the government but profess they agree with it and vote for it anyway, because its their party so is never wrong.

    Why do you condemn people who aren't party loyalists always towing the party line? It shows an independence of thought that in my opinion should always be to people's credit. Unless you're a party hack loyalist no individual voter will ever agree with 100% of what any party, any government, is doing and a failure to say what you disagree with makes you a stooge to be taken for granted.

    If other parties want my vote they can win it. Same as the Tories. I can and have voted for parties other than the Tories twice before (2001 GE and 2019 EP).
    Self-validation

    He was shackled to the party line for ever. Then threw it over and adopted a new tribe.

    He can’t understand people who conditionally support a party
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited June 2021
    DougSeal said:

    That's great, one thing that isn't going wrong are your beloved ratings, but cases are rising at there isn't a gnats chance that 21 June will go ahead "as planned". None whatsoever. There MAY be some face saving relaxations but things on the epidemiological front are not rosey.
    Surely the only epidemiological data that matters is how many people are going to die from this point on? I've been more pro-lockdown than many on this site - and still am, if it's necessary - but we've now come to the point that @rcs1000 keeps making: if Israel today is on 1.85 (!) new cases a day (and has been under 10 cases/day for over a month) after 122 doses/100, why would we not expect the same in very short order, given that we are on 96 doses/100 today?

    You're been one of the most sensible posters on the pandemic this year, and so though the data is less than optimal at the moment, I don't see why you'd be inclined to panic now.
  • MaffewMaffew Posts: 235
    Well, if all the doom predictions about 21 June not happening come true I think I'm going to have to go out and join the anti-lockdoiwn protests, which doesn't fill me with joy. Not only because I'd rather use my time for other things, but also because of the discomfort of being around far-right and anti-vaxxer types. Sigh.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,494
    DougSeal said:

    That's great, one thing that isn't going wrong are your beloved ratings, but cases are rising at there isn't a gnats chance that 21 June will go ahead "as planned". None whatsoever. There MAY be some face saving relaxations but things on the epidemiological front are not rosey.
    Really, really impressed to see the Liberal Party on 6%, especially as they've only about 4 councillors scattered around Northern England.

    Surprised though that there's no mention of the LibDems.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Lol.

    Would you mind giving us the absolute number of pensioners voting versus students voting?
    How about you?

    Labour got 10,269,051 at the last election.
    Tories got 13,966,454 at the last election.

    If the Tories were to get 0 working age voters and only have grey voters then how many votes is that from grey voters alone? Who wins the election then?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,181
    HYUFD said:

    Only under 34, over 34 the Tories won all classes bar DEs with Mori
    You are (deliberately?) introducing new variables to muddy the key point.

    Regardless of age, Labour won non retirees up to £100k.

    (Though there wasn’t much in it).
  • isamisam Posts: 41,200

    Really, really impressed to see the Liberal Party on 6%, especially as they've only about 4 councillors scattered around Northern England.

    Surprised though that there's no mention of the LibDems.
    Apparently one of the great things about Sir Keir taking over from Jezza was it made Con>LD switching more attractive. But they’ve nearly halved in support
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,181

    How about you?

    Labour got 10,269,051 at the last election.
    Tories got 13,966,454 at the last election.

    If the Tories were to get 0 working age voters and only have grey voters then how many votes is that from grey voters alone? Who wins the election then?
    Ok so your new argument is “Tories got more votes than Labour in 2019”.

    What is this, politics for the under 10s?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,368
    Quite an old one now I see, but I must admit I did chuckle at this comment on a piece on Ed M, where apparently said he wasn't bold enough as leader

    Stabbing your own brother in the back wasn’t bold enough? Ed, mate, you’re a maniac

    https://twitter.com/CountBinface/status/1396045370128482305

    Though as previously noted I saw no issue with him taking on his brother.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,389

    You are (deliberately?) introducing new variables to muddy the key point.

    Regardless of age, Labour won non retirees up to £100k.

    (Though there wasn’t much in it).
    Labour won non retirees up to £100k

    Boris won an 80 seat majority.

    File under "metrics that don't mean jack...."
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    You are (deliberately?) introducing new variables to muddy the key point.

    Regardless of age, Labour won non retirees up to £100k.

    (Though there wasn’t much in it).
    Regardless of age, Labour won caveating based upon age?

    If you want to exclude retirees then exclude students. You won't, because it doesn't suit your agenda.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,658
    isam said:

    Apparently one of the great things about Sir Keir taking over from Jezza was it made Con>LD switching more attractive. But they’ve nearly halved in support
    I think that is a function of SKS supporting every damn thing the Cons have done.

    Why bother switching if you know all you'll get is an ersatz version of what is already there.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Their stock answer is "that's Brexit" which, through the beauty of confirmation bias, means they don't have to accept any responsibility whatsoever for the implications of their own actions, nor consider any innovative solutions or show any flexibility. The hope is (still, of course) that they can use the NI protocol to crowbar the UK into closer alignment.

    They have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing.
    That sort of attitude takes the biscuit
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,248
    Professor Pantsdown has gone back to doomsday mode....

    Professor Lockdown' Neil Ferguson warns Indian variant is between 30% and 100% more infectious and twice as likely to cause hospitalisation in the unvaccinated compared to Kent strain
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,494
    isam said:

    Apparently one of the great things about Sir Keir taking over from Jezza was it made Con>LD switching more attractive. But they’ve nearly halved in support
    Just wait until after C&A?...... Why isn't it Amersham & Chesham, by the way? Alphabetical order.Or is Chesham much bigger?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,368

    You are (deliberately?) introducing new variables to muddy the key point.

    Regardless of age, Labour won non retirees up to £100k.

    (Though there wasn’t much in it).
    If you're allowed to introduce a variable to restrict how we are measuring support (or what that support is worth) why cannot others?

    That they did better among the working age population overall is an interesting point, but having broken things down to that point, of course people wil break it down further.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,640
    edited June 2021
    Cookie said:

    But by the same token the least to lose from Bremainerism.

    Again, I think the idea that old people vote out of self-interest needs challenging. With childen and grandchildren you become more invested in the future of your country.
    My mum voted Brexit because she thinks it will make life better for her children and grandchildren. Her children and grandchildren would very much prefer to still be in the EU and think life will be poorer for leaving. Remains to be seen who's right!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,354
    James Ward
    @JamesWard73
    ·
    2h
    So, how am I feeling after all that? Well, to be honest, not much different to how I was before yesterday. The bad news on hospitalisations is balanced by the hope that the transmission gain / SAR might be a bit lower, and there’s no real change on vaccine efficacy.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,200

    Just wait until after C&A?...... Why isn't it Amersham & Chesham, by the way? Alphabetical order.Or is Chesham much bigger?
    Maybe they had a tie-in with the clothes store!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,439
    edited June 2021

    Closest I have had to this was poltergeist activist in a quiet Dublin hotel having breakfast with a colleague. A fork - followed quickly by a knife - decided to spontaneously leap off a nearby table onto the floor.
    FWIW, I've always suspected that ghosts are like black holes. We see the star, long after it's actually burnt out. With a ghost, one is seeing a memory of the person who was there in the past.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,494
    Well, as my later f-i-l would have said, I'll go to the foot of our stairs!

    Rain is preventing play in the Test Match.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,782
    edited June 2021

    You are (deliberately?) introducing new variables to muddy the key point.

    Regardless of age, Labour won non retirees up to £100k.

    (Though there wasn’t much in it).
    Only because of Labour's vast lead with under 34s most of whom will still be renting (unless they are on a very high salary which was the only group the Tories won amongst the youngest voters).

    The Tories won workers over 34 narrowly and it was only once you got to the retirees the Tories got a vast lead but they are excluded from that calculation, so inevitably the vast Labour lead with under 34s will outweigh the narrow Tory lead with 34 to 65s amongst non retirees
  • isamisam Posts: 41,200
    edited June 2021

    Regardless of age, Labour won caveating based upon age?

    If you want to exclude retirees then exclude students. You won't, because it doesn't suit your agenda.
    The elephant in the room for Labour is that this win with working age + students in 2019 is trending downwards from 2017 isn’t it? @Gardenwalker you have the data, can you check please? Or @Philip_Thompson if you have it
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,389
    isam said:

    Maybe they had a tie-in with the clothes store!
    ....and going the same way!!
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    Professor Pantsdown has gone back to doomsday mode....

    Professor Lockdown' Neil Ferguson warns Indian variant is between 30% and 100% more infectious and twice as likely to cause hospitalisation in the unvaccinated compared to Kent strain

    Why are cases in India falling off a cliff at the moment?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,699

    Professor Pantsdown has gone back to doomsday mode....

    Professor Lockdown' Neil Ferguson warns Indian variant is between 30% and 100% more infectious and twice as likely to cause hospitalisation in the unvaccinated compared to Kent strain

    That’s what the data says. It’s nothing to do with his emotional state or extra marital affairs. Nice as it would be for his analysis to be discredited by his lockdown breach he is, unfortunately, right.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,243

    Professor Pantsdown has gone back to doomsday mode....

    Professor Lockdown' Neil Ferguson warns Indian variant is between 30% and 100% more infectious and twice as likely to cause hospitalisation in the unvaccinated compared to Kent strain

    'doomsday' is a bit strong. If that's from the Mail article (that's what google brings up) then he says that 21 June is a "very difficult judgement call". He's not even saying there should be a delay.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,036

    I'm expecting Boris to announce 'Stage 3.5' for 21 June - some further relaxations, but not all. And no more green countries.
    Dammit, and there is me hoping that Easy Jet were adding the South Sandwich Islands to their schedule.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,494
    On ghosts, about a year ago I was in a pub, which has been such for several hundred years, and is reputed to be haunted.

    I was sitting at a table, there were one or two other people standing at the bar, but quite well apart, when one chap suddenly asked "Who poked me in the back'.
    Everyone else was at least a couple of feet from him, no-one had moved for about five minutes (apart from lifting a glass; it's that sort of place) but he insisted he'd been poked in the back to make him move.

    General opinion was that the ghost had re-appeared.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,546
    DougSeal said:

    That’s what the data says. It’s nothing to do with his emotional state or extra marital affairs. Nice as it would be for his analysis to be discredited by his lockdown breach he is, unfortunately, right.
    PHE honing in on it being 50% more transmissable, but potentially also slightly more likely to lead to hospital (for unvaccinated, I suspect).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,036
    Leon said:

    And yet: forced sterilisation, cultural genocide, expansionist military, racist supremacism?

    I agree it is not a perfect match, thank God, but there are enough similarities to unnerve
    More Maoist than Nazi IMO.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,197
    Sean_F said:

    FWIW, I've always suspected that ghosts are like black holes. We see the star, long after it's actually burnt out. With a ghost, one is seeing a memory of the person who was there in the past.
    I'm quite attracted to that hypothesis, however a nightmarish variation on it is that the last thread of our consciousness, all that's left of us, is trapped in these echoes of our lives for ever. Makes black eternal oblivion seem quite attractive.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,699

    Surely the only epidemiological data that matters is how many people are going to die from this point on? I've been more pro-lockdown than many on this site - and still am, if it's necessary - but we've now come to the point that @rcs1000 keeps making: if Israel today is on 1.85 (!) new cases a day (and has been under 10 cases/day for over a month) after 122 doses/100, why would we not expect the same in very short order, given that we are on 96 doses/100 today?

    You're been one of the most sensible posters on the pandemic this year, and so though the data is less than optimal at the moment, I don't see why you'd be inclined to panic now.
    I’m not panicking, just disappointed that we are likely to have to delay matters. In truth it might even be better to have an “exit wave” during the summer than during next winter when the hospitals will be busy with other matters, but a delay (maybe only for a few weeks) while that wave happens is almost definite now.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,181
    kle4 said:

    If you're allowed to introduce a variable to restrict how we are measuring support (or what that support is worth) why cannot others?

    That they did better among the working age population overall is an interesting point, but having broken things down to that point, of course people wil break it down further.
    Because HYUFD is ignoring my variable, not breaking it down further. His latter post is better.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited June 2021
    Behind every man now alive stand thirty ghosts, for that is the ratio by which the dead outnumber the living - Arthur C. Clarke

    Boo! :smile:
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,181

    Regardless of age, Labour won caveating based upon age?

    If you want to exclude retirees then exclude students. You won't, because it doesn't suit your agenda.
    Having failed to provide any evidence that students were decisive, you are reduced to bloviating about “agendas”.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,200
    edited June 2021
    Unless I’m reading these tables incorrectly, the Tories are gaining support amongst younger voters, and Labour are losing it @Gardenwalker @Philip_Thompson

    Although if you ignore 2017, both are slightly up?

    This is from BES



  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,036
    isam said:

    The elephant in the room for Labour is that this win with working age + students in 2019 is trending downwards from 2017 isn’t it? @Gardenwalker you have the data, can you check please? Or @Philip_Thompson if you have it
    Well that is obvious. From just short of 40% in 2017 to 33% in 2019 requires losses pretty much across the board.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,181
    isam said:

    The elephant in the room for Labour is that this win with working age + students in 2019 is trending downwards from 2017 isn’t it? @Gardenwalker you have the data, can you check please? Or @Philip_Thompson if you have it
    I don’t have it.
    I wish I did. But others noted, yes that trend is downwards.

    I’m not here to say Corbyn is popular. Far from it. I’m here to note:
    -the grey vote is decisive
    -the narrative that the working class have gone Tory is...shaky.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,810
    So with the unrealistic 9% Green score the real Labour vote is probably more like 36%. Still woefully large gap though.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,897
    Pfizer approved for 12-15 year olds.
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 373
    Maffew said:

    Well, if all the doom predictions about 21 June not happening come true I think I'm going to have to go out and join the anti-lockdoiwn protests, which doesn't fill me with joy. Not only because I'd rather use my time for other things, but also because of the discomfort of being around far-right and anti-vaxxer types. Sigh.

    I have seen some of these demos near Hyde Park. There was also an Israel demo there recently and a stabbing. I saw some antivaxx stickers on lamp posts in the area. People can sometimes come to the same conclusions for very different reasons.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,764
    Charles said:

    Self-validation

    He was shackled to the party line for ever. Then threw it over and adopted a new tribe.

    He can’t understand people who conditionally support a party
    Oh I absolutely do understand them - they are called "voters" and you get to know them the best when you are asking them to vote for you.

    What I don't get are people who rant and rave about the evils of the government and then demonstrate their shackling by voting for it anyway. If you want proper grown up government you have to vote for it. Its a choice of Labour of Tory government (at least on paper) so register your fury with shagger by voting for someone else. Tories won't start behaving when they get your unflinching support.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,243

    Behind every man now alive stand thirty ghosts, for that is the ratio by which the dead outnumber the living - Arthur C. Clarke

    Boo! :smile:

    I guess that will be out of date now (higher now? more dead, but many more living, so maybe not?), but it's still an astonishingly low number to me. Population growth really has been crazy in the last hundred years or so.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,181
    isam said:

    Unless I’m reading these tables incorrectly, the Tories are gaining support amongst younger voters, and Labour are losing it @Gardenwalker @Philip_Thompson

    Although if you ignore 2017, both are slightly up?

    This is from BES



    This is v interesting.
    Seems to suggest that 2019 was about the fragmentation of the Labour vote, rather than an uplift in Tory vote. I think @HYUFD has also noted this.

    It would be good to see this for income and perhaps also work status (then Philip can finally confirm whether it was students that swung it).
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045
    edited June 2021
    IanB2 said:

    I don't think that follows at all.

    For a rational individual, the decision is one that weighs both sides of the equation. The key element on the other side of the equation is the medical consequences (for oneself and the knock on risk for friends and family) of catching the virus.

    I suspect that people value their freedom highly, but feared dying from the virus even more. Now that the latter fear is fast receding, it is entirely reasonable that people protest more about arbitrary limitations on our freedom.



    Indeed; the logic is as questionable as claiming that the willingness to accept chemotherapy (which literally poisons you and damages your health) for cancer indicates that they don't really value their health and feeling unpoisoned all that much.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited June 2021
    The way the government has us all completely over a barrel surely shows that 'vaccines are the way out' is at least a highly debatable statement. Vaccines have not bought you freedom. You cannot travel abroad at all, and probably won't be able to at least for this year. The return of everything else is still up in the air, and reversible at a whim.

    Compliance does not buy freedom, clearly.

    If you really want your freedoms now, just get Reform to take half a dozen points off the tories in the polls. Or five thousand votes in Chesham & Amersham.

    You will be on a plane to Spain before you can say Michael O'Leary.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,764
    "The young" and "the old" are not some kind of block votes where everyone up to age x votes one way then votes another way...
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    edited June 2021

    While everyone is busy catastrophizing and every single thing is going wrong in every single way...

    CON: 46% (+3)
    LAB: 30% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (+1)
    LIB: 6% (-2)

    @YouGov
    - Changes w May 28

    For the record, I still think we're going ahead with June 21 as planned. Garde ta foy!

    The Starmer/Morgan show really has cut through.... :smiley:
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,658
    edited June 2021
    This seemingly widespread talk of and belief in ghosts, conspiracy theories, aliens, etc on PB of all places, is proof if proof be needed of the battering that people's mental health has taken over the course of this pandemic. They have sadly been beaten down and are ready to believe anything because that (tinfoil hat on) is how we are easy to govern.

    Hold it together, people, ffs.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,747
    dixiedean said:

    Pfizer approved for 12-15 year olds.

    What, really? In this country?
    What about 16-18 year olds? Are we into vaccinating the secondary school age cohort yet?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,494

    "The young" and "the old" are not some kind of block votes where everyone up to age x votes one way then votes another way...

    Certainly not.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,782
    edited June 2021

    This is v interesting.
    Seems to suggest that 2019 was about the fragmentation of the Labour vote, rather than an uplift in Tory vote. I think @HYUFD has also noted this.

    It would be good to see this for income and perhaps also work status (then Philip can finally confirm whether it was students that swung it).
    The Mori breakdown is useful on this.

    In 2019 Labour won 62% amongst 18 to 24s and 51% amongst 25-34s.

    However Labour won only 39% amongst 35-44s and just 28% amongst 45-54s and 27% amongst 55-65s.

    However the Tories only got over 60% with over 65s with whom they got 64% to just 17% for Labour
    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election

    In 2017 by contrast Labour got 49% amongst 35-44s, 40% amongst 45-54s and 34% amongst 55-64s.

    Their 18 to 24 vote was the same as in 2019 though at 62% and the Tories still got 61% amongst over 65s even in 2017
    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2017-election

    So the swing from 2017 to 2019 to the Tories was almost entirely with middle aged workers
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,389

    I don’t have it.
    I wish I did. But others noted, yes that trend is downwards.

    I’m not here to say Corbyn is popular. Far from it. I’m here to note:
    -the grey vote is decisive
    -the narrative that the working class have gone Tory is...shaky.
    Except, if you knew Mansfield, you would have some explaining to do to show why the working class has not gone Tory. It ain't exactly teeming with the middle class...

    2005 - Tory vote 18.4%

    2019 - Tory vote 63.9%

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,546
    edited June 2021
    Cookie said:

    What, really? In this country?
    What about 16-18 year olds? Are we into vaccinating the secondary school age cohort yet?
    MHRA, the UK, and I believe 16-18 already approved.

    I'd expect the secondary cohort to be done well before September's return to school.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I know I talked about this yesterday but there are some truly depressing vaccine numbers beneath the headline figures.

    Basically any city in the UK has pitiful uptake of the vaccine.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,546
    Alistair said:

    I know I talked about this yesterday but there are some truly depressing vaccine numbers beneath the headline figures.

    Basically any city in the UK has pitiful uptake of the vaccine.

    Or less people live there than believed?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,439

    This is v interesting.
    Seems to suggest that 2019 was about the fragmentation of the Labour vote, rather than an uplift in Tory vote. I think @HYUFD has also noted this.

    It would be good to see this for income and perhaps also work status (then Philip can finally confirm whether it was students that swung it).
    The Conservative vote share only rose from 44% to 45% overall.

    Within that, there was quite a bit of churn, which benefitted the Conservatives. A considerable number of Labour leave voters switched to the Tories, whereas Conservative Remain voters who defected switched to the Lib Dems. That gave the Lib Dems some hefty vote shares, but few seats, whereas switchers from Labour delivered a lot of Conservative seats.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    edited June 2021
    Perspective on the "why are they hiding the schools data?" mob:

    Thread:
    I'm extremely impressed by the quality of the UK #COVID19 data. Their near-real time analyses or the PHE reports are unparalleled in their quality. I'm also in awe of the efforts to present those findings in an approachable way on social media for instance by @kallmemeg.
    1/

    The scientific capacity and rapid release of data and analyses makes the UK the country which may be most transparent and open about the epidemiological situation and its evolution


    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1400761347684634624?s=20
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,389
    TOPPING said:

    This seemingly widespread talk of and belief in ghosts, conspiracy theories, aliens, etc on PB of all places, is proof if proof be needed of the battering that people's mental health has taken over the course of this pandemic. They have sadly been beaten down and are ready to believe anything because that (tinfoil hat on) is how we are easy to govern.

    Hold it together, people, ffs.

    Alternatively, it is proof if proof be needed of the lack of value political betting tips in these times of Boris and Skyr.....

    Not battered, just bored.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,169
    Alistair said:

    I know I talked about this yesterday but there are some truly depressing vaccine numbers beneath the headline figures.

    Basically any city in the UK has pitiful uptake of the vaccine.

    Or young people live in cities and are only just being offered the vaccine shocker?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    PHE honing in on it being 50% more transmissable, but potentially also slightly more likely to lead to hospital (for unvaccinated, I suspect).
    PHE and NHS are currently not neutral commentators on this because of the new variable being introduced that says that any COVID related hospitalisation increases (however minor) is going to cause problems because of all the “backlog” work going on.

    Also it seems to be that this “Indian variant more likely to cause hospitalisations in the unvaccinated” line has huge potential for exploitation via misuse.

    Because the unvaccinated population now, has a completely different demographic profile to the unvaccinated population of six months ago. So a doubling of risk amongst the “unvaccinated” has very different implications for the pressures on the NHS.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,389
    felix said:

    The Starmer/Morgan show really has cut through.... :smiley:
    Dominic....who?
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,796
    Selebian said:

    I guess that will be out of date now (higher now? more dead, but many more living, so maybe not?), but it's still an astonishingly low number to me. Population growth really has been crazy in the last hundred years or so.
    Even after the last year or so - people still get surprised by the consequences of exponential growth.

    (Not a criticism - it is somewhat non-intuitive, just an observation how we don't instinctively switch to recognizing it)
  • isamisam Posts: 41,200

    Alternatively, it is proof if proof be needed of the lack of value political betting tips in these times of Boris and Skyr.....

    Not battered, just bored.
    Con Maj 5/4 with some bookies
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,169

    I don’t have it.
    I wish I did. But others noted, yes that trend is downwards.

    I’m not here to say Corbyn is popular. Far from it. I’m here to note:
    -the grey vote is decisive
    -the narrative that the working class have gone Tory is...shaky.
    Those who are working class and retired have clearly gone Tory. I am far from convinced those who are working class and working have done the same.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,494
    Just tried to book an X-Ray appointment. Receptionist told me that they've had a rush of chest X-Ray requests lately 'due to the effects of Covid'.

    Hmm.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,897
    Cookie said:

    What, really? In this country?
    What about 16-18 year olds? Are we into vaccinating the secondary school age cohort yet?
    It has been approved as safe. Presumably, the clinically vulnerable can be given it.
    I think the Vaccines Committee will decide whether it will be routinely administered.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,658

    Alternatively, it is proof if proof be needed of the lack of value political betting tips in these times of Boris and Skyr.....

    Not battered, just bored.
    I prefer my theory. Whatever now is, it isn't boring.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,785

    The way the government has us all completely over a barrel surely shows that 'vaccines are the way out' is at least a highly debatable statement. Vaccines have not bought you freedom. You cannot travel abroad at all, and probably won't be able to at least for this year. The return of everything else is still up in the air, and reversible at a whim.

    Compliance does not buy freedom, clearly.

    If you really want your freedoms now, just get Reform to take half a dozen points off the tories in the polls. Or five thousand votes in Chesham & Amersham.

    You will be on a plane to Spain before you can say Michael O'Leary.

    You are such a gloom merchant. Assuming you don't have an alternative persona for home life, I pity anyone that lives with you.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,782
    edited June 2021

    Those who are working class and retired have clearly gone Tory. I am far from convinced those who are working class and working have done the same.
    Those who are middle aged working class and working clearly voted mainly Labour in 2017 but mainly Tory in 2019, they are the key swing voters now and there are lots of them in the Red Wall.

    You see the same trend in the US, in 2016 Trump won 40-49s and won the election but in 2020 Biden won 40-49s and the election even though other age groups stayed the same ie under 40s still voted Democrat and over 50s still voted GOP
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,036

    Behind every man now alive stand thirty ghosts, for that is the ratio by which the dead outnumber the living - Arthur C. Clarke

    Boo! :smile:

    Is that anywhere near correct? I thought that because of population growth and longevity a much higher proportion of humans are alive today than at any time in human history?

    This little graphic is quite illuminating.


  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited June 2021
    DougSeal said:

    I’m not panicking, just disappointed that we are likely to have to delay matters. In truth it might even be better to have an “exit wave” during the summer than during next winter when the hospitals will be busy with other matters, but a delay (maybe only for a few weeks) while that wave happens is almost definite now.
    By my reckoning (assuming no increase in rate), we'll hit the 120 doses / 100 at which the Israel programme levelled off around the end of this month, and we'll probably be able to keep motoring and push that even higher. I can see your point about the value of a brief delay now (or the 3.5 / 4.0 split mentioned by @londonpubman) but even someone as risk-averse as I am might be tempted to take the gamble of sticking to the timetable. Either way, we're rapidly closing off the room for manoeuvre left to the virus.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,200
    HYUFD said:

    Those who are middle aged working class and working clearly voted Labour in 2017 but Tory in 2019, they are the key swing voters now and there are lots of them in the Red Wall
    Yes, they’re Leave voters let down by Sir Keir’s People’s Vote nonsense
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Ok so your new argument is “Tories got more votes than Labour in 2019”.

    What is this, politics for the under 10s?
    No that's not what I said. Are you functionally illiterate? All votes count, you can't lop off a fraction then pretend that's the result or meaningful.

    If the Tories were to get 0 working age voters and only have grey voters then how many votes is that from grey voters alone? Who wins the election then?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,764

    Those who are working class and retired have clearly gone Tory. I am far from convinced those who are working class and working have done the same.
    They certainly have on Teesside. One of the entertaining joys of 2019 was doing joint polling station visits with my good friend and former fellow ward councillor with our now mismatching red/yellow rosettes.

    The polling stations showing record turnout were in resolutely w/c areas and once opened at the count had gone heavily Tory.

    People wanted their moon on a stick and were happy to vote for it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    HYUFD said:

    Those who are middle aged working class and working clearly voted mainly Labour in 2017 but mainly Tory in 2019, they are the key swing voters now and there are lots of them in the Red Wall.

    You see the same trend in the US, in 2016 Trump won 40-49s and won the election but in 2020 Biden won 40-49s and the election even though other age groups stayed the same ie under 40s voted Democrats and over 50s still voted GOP
    Yes. The crossover age was from memory late 40s in 2017 but 39 in 2019. Winning more working voters is why the Tories got a majority in 2019, which goes against @Gardenwalker 's spin which is why he wants to pretend you can mix the middle aged (plurality Tory voting) with the students but not the retired to spin a result he likes.

    Labour wins the young, the Tories the old, whoever wins the middle aged wins overall. That's the Tories in 2019 and Labour in 1997.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,764
    Lol - I need to find a courier to ferry frozen items from one end of the country to the other thanks to a mispick at the factory sending samples to the wrong place.

    The name of one frozen courier company's sales dude? Mr Frost! :D
  • isamisam Posts: 41,200
    edited June 2021

    This is v interesting.
    Seems to suggest that 2019 was about the fragmentation of the Labour vote, rather than an uplift in Tory vote. I think @HYUFD has also noted this.

    It would be good to see this for income and perhaps also work status (then Philip can finally confirm whether it was students that swung it).
    It seems turnout was up amongst the young, and down for the old in 2019.



    Labour voters who couldn’t bring themselves to vote Tory so stayed indoors (in December)?


    The Lib Dem’s got Remainers of all ages perhaps




    https://www.britishelectionstudy.com/bes-findings/age-and-voting-behaviour-at-the-2019-general-election/
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,795
    Foxy said:

    Is that anywhere near correct? I thought that because of population growth and longevity a much higher proportion of humans are alive today than at any time in human history?

    This little graphic is quite illuminating.


    It's amazing that the level of native americans is so low, given the size of the USA. I guess that agricultural methods, or the lack of them held back their population?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Or young people live in cities and are only just being offered the vaccine shocker?
    No, I'm not an idiot, I'm talking about at comparable age group levels. So 50-54 year old age group take up in cities is massively lower than the national average.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,074
    Sean_F said:

    FWIW, I've always suspected that ghosts are like black holes. We see the star, long after it's actually burnt out. With a ghost, one is seeing a memory of the person who was there in the past.
    So ghosts are really small and black holes are far away, or something?

    I quite like the sonic theory. When I was at boarding school there inevitably came that point when someone got an Ouija board out after which a bunch of suggestible teens kept claiming to have felt or heard something. One night I was going down a long corridor (definitely a theme here) and I was utterly convinced that there was something behind me. The hairs on the back of my neck and arms were up and I was just about hyperventilating. I don't think I really saw anything, there was a slightly odd blur, maybe, but I definitely felt under threat. Maybe vibration was responsible.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,200
    edited June 2021

    Yes. The crossover age was from memory late 40s in 2017 but 39 in 2019. Winning more working voters is why the Tories got a majority in 2019, which goes against @Gardenwalker 's spin which is why he wants to pretend you can mix the middle aged (plurality Tory voting) with the students but not the retired to spin a result he likes.

    Labour wins the young, the Tories the old, whoever wins the middle aged wins overall. That's the Tories in 2019 and Labour in 1997.
    Seems to me, based on the graphs I’ve shown, that Boris’s majority was based on middle aged and retired Labour voters from 2017 not voting in 2019

    Leavers turned off by the ‘People’s Vote’

This discussion has been closed.