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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Free schools could be a bigger negative for the Tories than

SystemSystem Posts: 11,684
edited June 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Free schools could be a bigger negative for the Tories than EdM is for Labour

Maybe it is because free schools have been making the news because of the Birmingham developments and the row between Michael Gove and Theresa May but the blue team will be disappointed by the response to this key policy area in today’s YouGov.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Fewer than one in four people have more than the vaguest clue what a free school is.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    But four in four people have the vote.
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    IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    Most people don't really know who Ed Miliband is yet. They just pick up on the media hostility. That is why Cameron is running scared on the debates. All internal polls showing Miliband doing well with voters when they have to see extended clips of him speaking
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    What are the figures for parents who have children at a free school or academy ?
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited June 2014
    The Birmingham 'trojan horse' schools are not free schools, "four are academies and two are run by the local authority."

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100276173/the-trojan-horse-scandal-is-an-argument-in-favour-of-giving-schools-more-autonomy-not-less/

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    FPT: F1: post-race analysis up here:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/austria-post-race-analysis.html

    Mr. Dave, an excellent point but I wonder how well-known that is. I was under the impression they were free schools.
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    Missed the change of threads
    O/T
    The outrage bus would explode if this was written in the UK

    http://kickerdaily.com/racist-blog-about-filipino-infestation-in-singapore-provokes-outrage/#comment-16980
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited June 2014
    Gove certainly has the capacity to bugger the election, he is quite toxic,
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    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    Most free schools now set up by chains (inevitable hence not surprising).

    Tbh I think this taps in to a general distrust, lack of sense of ownership/control etc re private companies taking over state services. Going by polling on trust and the like.
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Yay. A thread on Mike's Gove fixation. Great.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited June 2014
    GeoffM said:

    Yay. A thread on Mike's Gove fixation. Great.

    Gove will lose the election for the Tories. Today's polling is a further indication of this.

    Of course I'm going to be fixated on an area where the Tories are shedding votes as we've seen in the teacher specific surveys.

  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    FPT: F1: post-race analysis up here:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/austria-post-race-analysis.html

    Mr. Dave, an excellent point but I wonder how well-known that is. I was under the impression they were free schools.

    A good post over at your blog as usual.

    The biased BBC are quite happy to blur distinctions such as this (not limited to schools) to nudge their leftist mindset. You are not the only person to be given that false impression.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Mr. M, thanks very much. Always nice to hear what people think.

    Reminds me of IDS the other day attacking the BBC for its coverage of welfare.
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    FPT rich, taxes etc

    The oligarchs are getting fantastically more wealthy while everyone else gets poorer because they bought the political class.

    The two main factors are

    1: Mass immigration is a wealth transfer mechanism. On top of the general effect from driving down wages (whether in real or actual terms) if you have mass immigration at whatever level is necessary to keep wages static during a time of great productivity increases e.g. computing, then all the benefit of those productivity increases go to the rich.

    Mass immigration is economic warfare.

    2) Long list of ways the National Union of Banksters and Oligarchs has got the political class to rig the game in their favour e.g.

    a) allowing profits to be offshored
    b) ignoring cartels
    c) allowing tbtf banks
    etc

    "Regulatory capture" aka a corrupted political class. That's the problem.
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    Yay. A thread on Mike's Gove fixation. Great.

    Gove will lose the election for the Tories. Today's polling is a further indication of this.

    Of course I'm going to be fixated on an area where the Tories are shedding votes as we've seen in the teacher specific surveys.

    The teacher-specific surveys you keep citing are one thing. Parent-specific surveys who have used the new schools for a while will soon be another.

    The consumer is the priority in all of this - the child particularly as well as the parents. Knee-jerk hostility to change from random people polled on the street will fade away when good outcomes become apparent.
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Carola said:

    Most free schools now set up by chains (inevitable hence not surprising).

    Tbh I think this taps in to a general distrust, lack of sense of ownership/control etc re private companies taking over state services. Going by polling on trust and the like.

    Yes. DIY schools is one thing, MacSchools is another and it's looking more and more like just another bit of privatization/spivery/looting.

    I don't know how much it will effect things though as faith in state schools is patchy as well. To hurt Con this policy has to find people who were originally pro (ish) to free schools and became anti later. Not sure how many that could be.

    I'd have thought it was quite polarized already which would mean it's already baked in (but I haven't followed the polling at all so that's a pure guess).

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    MontyMonty Posts: 346
    GeoffM said:



    The teacher-specific surveys you keep citing are one thing. Parent-specific surveys who have used the new schools for a while will soon be another.

    The consumer is the priority in all of this - the child particularly as well as the parents. Knee-jerk hostility to change from random people polled on the street will fade away when good outcomes become apparent.

    Free schools are founded on a principle that is alien to most parents. That teaching isn't a real profession (no qualifications necessary to do it), and that any crackpot with enough money can open a school and teach children. It's the sort of thing that goes down well in Texas, especially with the religious right, not so much in Britain.

    Over here, it's a tempting idea for all sorts of religious extremists to lock on to.

    I fervently hope that free schools are consigned to the dustbin of history very soon and I'm very happy that 53% of my countrymen seem to agree.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Mr. Monty, but the religious schools in the news recently aren't free schools...
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    MrJones said:

    Carola said:

    Most free schools now set up by chains (inevitable hence not surprising).

    Tbh I think this taps in to a general distrust, lack of sense of ownership/control etc re private companies taking over state services. Going by polling on trust and the like.

    Yes. DIY schools is one thing, MacSchools is another and it's looking more and more like just another bit of privatization/spivery/looting.

    I don't know how much it will effect things though as faith in state schools is patchy as well. To hurt Con this policy has to find people who were originally pro (ish) to free schools and became anti later. Not sure how many that could be.

    I'd have thought it was quite polarized already which would mean it's already baked in (but I haven't followed the polling at all so that's a pure guess).

    MacSchools would be a repeatable model, consistent quality, professional management. That doesn't sound like a terrible idea to me.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2014
    Today's AA Gill Sunday Times restaurant review: Cafe Bleu, Newark. Atmosphere: 1/5, Food 2/5.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Monty said:

    GeoffM said:



    The teacher-specific surveys you keep citing are one thing. Parent-specific surveys who have used the new schools for a while will soon be another.

    The consumer is the priority in all of this - the child particularly as well as the parents. Knee-jerk hostility to change from random people polled on the street will fade away when good outcomes become apparent.

    Free schools are founded on a principle that is alien to most parents. That teaching isn't a real profession (no qualifications necessary to do it), and that any crackpot with enough money can open a school and teach children. It's the sort of thing that goes down well in Texas, especially with the religious right, not so much in Britain.

    Over here, it's a tempting idea for all sorts of religious extremists to lock on to.

    I fervently hope that free schools are consigned to the dustbin of history very soon and I'm very happy that 53% of my countrymen seem to agree.

    There is no such "principle". I do approve of your "I don't like it so I'll point something the silly silly Yanks do which is different" comment, though. It's a very persuasive and winning argument.

    There is clear evidence that people who haven't got certain paperwork that the unions insist on for closed-shop purposes are quite able to inspire and educate the next generation.

    That element of the policy is no more than an extra side-bonus of the free schools system though. Breaking the control of unions and the dead hand of local "government" is always a great thing.

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    GeoffM said:

    Yay. A thread on Mike's Gove fixation. Great.

    Gove will lose the election for the Tories. Today's polling is a further indication of this.
    Of course I'm going to be fixated on an area where the Tories are shedding votes as we've seen in the teacher specific surveys.
    438,000 teachers = about 284,000 votes
    8 million school children, approx 12million parents involved = about 8 million votes.

    Now why would one small producer interest shift a GE?
  • Options
    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    MrJones said:

    FPT rich, taxes etc

    The oligarchs are getting fantastically more wealthy while everyone else gets poorer because they bought the political class.

    The two main factors are

    1: Mass immigration is a wealth transfer mechanism. On top of the general effect from driving down wages (whether in real or actual terms) if you have mass immigration at whatever level is necessary to keep wages static during a time of great productivity increases e.g. computing, then all the benefit of those productivity increases go to the rich.

    Mass immigration is economic warfare.

    2) Long list of ways the National Union of Banksters and Oligarchs has got the political class to rig the game in their favour e.g.

    a) allowing profits to be offshored
    b) ignoring cartels
    c) allowing tbtf banks
    etc

    "Regulatory capture" aka a corrupted political class. That's the problem.

    Is Mr Jones a Marxist?

  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,855
    Afternoon (just about) all :)

    The big problem in education at the moment isn't the issue of free schools, it's the provision of school places themselves. One County Council in the south for whom I do some work has to find an additional 900 places for this autumn's intake - I found about this at the end of last month.

    That's a huge task which I understand is being repeated across much of the country. It's an issue around how quickly new classrooms can be added, how quickly local planning issues can be resolved and how quickly the rest of the school infrastructure (including the provision of meals) can be put in place.

    New secondary schools are being built as are new primaries to take on this influx of children and the "free" schools have to fight for availability of land - there's a massive issue around land at the moment. Between the demands for additional school places and additional space for residential accommodation for the elderly on top of the Government requirement for building new homes the planning process in some areas is on the cusp of meltdown.

    It's not just about the "i" word - there are other demographic and economic pressures at work which knock on to other areas such as the provision of medical and transport services.

    But it's not as though we are actually short of land - there's masses of it but its usage for anything meaningful is blocked by antiquated concepts of "green belt" and the like but that blockage serves a purpose as well as the current infrastructure could not stand a house building free-for-all while the cynic in me suspects successive Governments have realised that keeping homeowners sweet by keeping the value of their capital asset high by manipulating supply and demand is the key to electoral success.
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    edited June 2014

    MrJones said:

    Carola said:

    Most free schools now set up by chains (inevitable hence not surprising).

    Tbh I think this taps in to a general distrust, lack of sense of ownership/control etc re private companies taking over state services. Going by polling on trust and the like.

    Yes. DIY schools is one thing, MacSchools is another and it's looking more and more like just another bit of privatization/spivery/looting.

    I don't know how much it will effect things though as faith in state schools is patchy as well. To hurt Con this policy has to find people who were originally pro (ish) to free schools and became anti later. Not sure how many that could be.

    I'd have thought it was quite polarized already which would mean it's already baked in (but I haven't followed the polling at all so that's a pure guess).

    MacSchools would be a repeatable model, consistent quality, professional management. That doesn't sound like a terrible idea to me.
    I'm neutral on that as i have a very low view of the state system. (I think the (edit: core of the education) problem is in the teacher training colleges and has been since the 50s.) The MacSchool point reflects more on the perception that privatization has just been a giant looting exercise.

    Like I say the number of people who fit in the bracket of anti enough the state system to be in favour of (or at least not anti) Free Schools but then leftie/nationalistic enough to be put off by the looting aspect (public paying taxes to build something and then that thing is sold off cheap afterwards) may not be that large.

    dunno

    nb my view on this has changed a little since a recent experience which at least on the surface seemed to boil down to a big company being given a lot of school buildings cheap.
  • Options
    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    MrJones said:

    Carola said:

    Most free schools now set up by chains (inevitable hence not surprising).

    Tbh I think this taps in to a general distrust, lack of sense of ownership/control etc re private companies taking over state services. Going by polling on trust and the like.

    Yes. DIY schools is one thing, MacSchools is another and it's looking more and more like just another bit of privatization/spivery/looting.

    I don't know how much it will effect things though as faith in state schools is patchy as well. To hurt Con this policy has to find people who were originally pro (ish) to free schools and became anti later. Not sure how many that could be.

    I'd have thought it was quite polarized already which would mean it's already baked in (but I haven't followed the polling at all so that's a pure guess).

    There are a lot of interesting angles to this. I don't tend to discuss ed much on PB... more on ed forums where - no offence - folk tend to know more about it, 'bigger picture/policy-wise'. You also have to dig deep to get the full story re the varied claims based on 'research' data across intiaitives/policies.

    In principle I'm not against free schools. It's just pretty much impossible to get hard data on them (the DfE fight to the death) and a lot of info that comes out is spun - such as re 'parent choice', which doesn't tell you if first choice (down to no choice) or not.

    I think the bigger effect will be local - in areas where there's been forced academisation, for example (against parents' wishes and in spite of good performance), or where vested interest has caused controversy.
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    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,414
    Don't free schools just go to the heart of a debate that should be had in other areas too namely is the state there to pay for and provide services or merely to fund and facilitate the provision of services. I tend to favour the funder-facilitator approach because it allows significant diversification of service plus a greater degree of tailoring to individual needs than a state provider approach. When the state is the provider rather than merely facilitator it tends to want to do the same thing everywhere and you get a one size fits all approach, which isn't necessarily always the most appropriate. There may of course be issues with regards to the change of models of public spending but I think there are advantages to diversifying provision of service.
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Carola said:

    MrJones said:

    Carola said:

    Most free schools now set up by chains (inevitable hence not surprising).

    Tbh I think this taps in to a general distrust, lack of sense of ownership/control etc re private companies taking over state services. Going by polling on trust and the like.

    Yes. DIY schools is one thing, MacSchools is another and it's looking more and more like just another bit of privatization/spivery/looting.

    I don't know how much it will effect things though as faith in state schools is patchy as well. To hurt Con this policy has to find people who were originally pro (ish) to free schools and became anti later. Not sure how many that could be.

    I'd have thought it was quite polarized already which would mean it's already baked in (but I haven't followed the polling at all so that's a pure guess).

    There are a lot of interesting angles to this. I don't tend to discuss ed much on PB... more on ed forums where - no offence - folk tend to know more about it, 'bigger picture/policy-wise'. You also have to dig deep to get the full story re the varied claims based on 'research' data across intiaitives/policies.

    In principle I'm not against free schools. It's just pretty much impossible to get hard data on them (the DfE fight to the death) and a lot of info that comes out is spun - such as re 'parent choice', which doesn't tell you if first choice (down to no choice) or not.

    I think the bigger effect will be local - in areas where there's been forced academisation, for example (against parents' wishes and in spite of good performance), or where vested interest has caused controversy.
    "forced academisation"

    Yeah. This I why think the impact might be limited or rather already baked in because you need people who'd be okay with forced academisation if it was about individual heads being free of the LEAs but not so keen when it just looks like looting with a big chain taking the place of the LEA.

  • Options
    The first priorities of any representing organisation is to convince their members how special they are, how hard working they are, how misunderstood they are and how everyone out there is trying to get them AND but for the union how they would be trodden under foot.

    For public sector unions that is fairly well understood but it goes much further and my own experience of exactly the same was as a member, then youngest ever chairman of the local National Farmers' Union branch. ( A long time ago.) Add to that that the union nationally had an agenda distinct from the aspirations of my fellow local hill farmers and a hostility to Mrs Thatcher's rural policies which we did not share and my and their chances of becoming national delegates were distinctly limited.

    Turning back to state education and condemnation of right of centre education secretaries is not unbeneficial to those aspiring to rise in the union ranks. Some saw this danger, Gillian Shepherd and even Ken Baker finessed around it. Michael Gove is a more simple ( but not simplistic ) man and he goes straight forward to what he believes ( mainly correctly ) is right.

    Result, a very honourable but sadly naive man is vilified throughout every school and he doesn't have the aplomb to deal with it at all. In many ways he is like the teacher who can't quite control the lower fifth - not totally aware there is a problem or that he is the main element of that problem. He is an easy target for jobbing trade union hacks just like the weak teacher is for the school yard wannabe thugs.

    To come now to the crux of the article. Of course he won't lose the election for the Conservatives: not that many care about education. Andrew Lansley could have lost the election if he had been left in charge of health as the NHS and the BBC are the twin pillars upon which the post war UK settlement stands.
  • Options
    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    MrJones said:

    Carola said:

    MrJones said:

    Carola said:

    Most free schools now set up by chains (inevitable hence not surprising).

    Tbh I think this taps in to a general distrust, lack of sense of ownership/control etc re private companies taking over state services. Going by polling on trust and the like.

    Yes. DIY schools is one thing, MacSchools is another and it's looking more and more like just another bit of privatization/spivery/looting.

    I don't know how much it will effect things though as faith in state schools is patchy as well. To hurt Con this policy has to find people who were originally pro (ish) to free schools and became anti later. Not sure how many that could be.

    I'd have thought it was quite polarized already which would mean it's already baked in (but I haven't followed the polling at all so that's a pure guess).

    There are a lot of interesting angles to this. I don't tend to discuss ed much on PB... more on ed forums where - no offence - folk tend to know more about it, 'bigger picture/policy-wise'. You also have to dig deep to get the full story re the varied claims based on 'research' data across intiaitives/policies.

    In principle I'm not against free schools. It's just pretty much impossible to get hard data on them (the DfE fight to the death) and a lot of info that comes out is spun - such as re 'parent choice', which doesn't tell you if first choice (down to no choice) or not.

    I think the bigger effect will be local - in areas where there's been forced academisation, for example (against parents' wishes and in spite of good performance), or where vested interest has caused controversy.
    "forced academisation"

    Yeah. This I why think the impact might be limited or rather already baked in because you need people who'd be okay with forced academisation if it was about individual heads being free of the LEAs but not so keen when it just looks like looting with a big chain taking the place of the LEA.

    From the way things are going I think LEAs will just be replaced by something similar - except with no/limited local accountability. And probably costing more in the long run.
  • Options
    CONTINUED

    In excess of 90% of the UK will have no experience of Free Schools. Many will have met the Labour academies in the inner cities where they replaced appalling county council schools. All my local post 11 schools are the new 2010 academies and even those with childen attending the same are barely aware of any change other than in the description. How many actually knew what Comprehensive meant in a school's title ?

    So to summarise the teaching staff hate Michael Gove, in part because they have been told to but also because Conservative policies and Conservatives are to most of them an anathema associated with Public Schools. The public in general and parents more acutely have a vague view that state education has improved out of all recognition over the last generation - and they are right. They and I don't know the detail, they have heard something about free schools, they are mildly aware the left don't like them. But then they believe Dave Spart doesn't like any progress. So, education, unlike the health service is not a problem for the re-election of a Conservative goverment, even with Latin Master Gove as head of department.
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    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805

    The first priorities of any representing organisation is to convince their members how special they are, how hard working they are, how misunderstood they are and how everyone out there is trying to get them AND but for the union how they would be trodden under foot.

    For public sector unions that is fairly well understood but it goes much further and my own experience of exactly the same was as a member, then youngest ever chairman of the local National Farmers' Union branch. ( A long time ago.) Add to that that the union nationally had an agenda distinct from the aspirations of my fellow local hill farmers and a hostility to Mrs Thatcher's rural policies which we did not share and my and their chances of becoming national delegates were distinctly limited.

    Turning back to state education and condemnation of right of centre education secretaries is not unbeneficial to those aspiring to rise in the union ranks. Some saw this danger, Gillian Shepherd and even Ken Baker finessed around it. Michael Gove is a more simple ( but not simplistic ) man and he goes straight forward to what he believes ( mainly correctly ) is right.

    Result, a very honourable but sadly naive man is vilified throughout every school and he doesn't have the aplomb to deal with it at all. In many ways he is like the teacher who can't quite control the lower fifth - not totally aware there is a problem or that he is the main element of that problem. He is an easy target for jobbing trade union hacks just like the weak teacher is for the school yard wannabe thugs.

    To come now to the crux of the article. Of course he won't lose the election for the Conservatives: not that many care about education. Andrew Lansley could have lost the election if he had been left in charge of health as the NHS and the BBC are the twin pillars upon which the post war UK settlement stands.

    Unions have naff all power in ed. Even Cummings put them at about fourth in his list of irritants.
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    Teaching Unions have a leadership role within the staffing of state education just as the NFU has a leadership role within the farming industry. The fact they have little clout to enact their aspirations in some ways helps them keep control over their members - in both cases.

    CF the argument - if you don't support the NFU politicians will never allow shooting of badgers.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    "Maybe it is because free schools have been making the news because of the Birmingham developments"

    Don't know the complete list of schools, but what I've read so far regarding 'Trojan Horse' is that they were Academies and State schools.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    GeoffM said:

    Yay. A thread on Mike's Gove fixation. Great.

    Gove will lose the election for the Tories. Today's polling is a further indication of this.
    Of course I'm going to be fixated on an area where the Tories are shedding votes as we've seen in the teacher specific surveys.
    438,000 teachers = about 284,000 votes
    8 million school children, approx 12million parents involved = about 8 million votes.

    Now why would one small producer interest shift a GE?
    Because it is not just a small producer interest. For a start, every vote Gove has repelled counts twice (-1 for his party, +1 for the opposition). Then, as @stodge points out, at the same time as championing Free schools, Gove has presided over a shortage of school places, which affects consumers.

    What is remarkable is that for a politician, Gove has seriously screwed up the politics. The teachers were on his side!
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    SeanT said:

    I don't know about the rest of Britain, but in London N2 Michael Gove's "flagship policy" is very popular, and this is quite a lefty suburb.

    So lefty that the people of Finchley were among the first to elect a woman to parliament when no-one had even heard of AWS's. Margaret Somehing-or-other; went on to be Prime Minister.
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    perdix said:

    MrJones said:

    FPT rich, taxes etc

    The oligarchs are getting fantastically more wealthy while everyone else gets poorer because they bought the political class.

    The two main factors are

    1: Mass immigration is a wealth transfer mechanism. On top of the general effect from driving down wages (whether in real or actual terms) if you have mass immigration at whatever level is necessary to keep wages static during a time of great productivity increases e.g. computing, then all the benefit of those productivity increases go to the rich.

    Mass immigration is economic warfare.

    2) Long list of ways the National Union of Banksters and Oligarchs has got the political class to rig the game in their favour e.g.

    a) allowing profits to be offshored
    b) ignoring cartels
    c) allowing tbtf banks
    etc

    "Regulatory capture" aka a corrupted political class. That's the problem.

    Is Mr Jones a Marxist?

    I think you need competition and incentives for things to work properly. If someone invents a version of socialism that includes those things then i'll go back to it. In the mean time there's only free market capitalism.

    However the natural end result of free market capitalism *isn't* free markets, it's cartels i.e. the end result of free market competition isn't free market competition.

    So *continuing* free market competition *requires* the state to constantly break up cartels as they form.

    Hence the point about regulatory capture.

    It's a capitalist argument. It just sounds socialist because a lot of the free market people have never actually thought about the mechanics of why free markets work better.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,995
    edited June 2014
    I'm not IMMEDIATELY concerned with education. I'm a grandparent, two of whose seven grandchildren are finished with education, and three more are being educated in another country.
    BUT I'm strongly opposed to the existence, let alone the extension of faith schools. Divisive, and likely to encourage division.
    What's more I really dislike the idea of "free schools". Parents come and go; schools go on for ever. I recall it being suggested that I become a parent governor once. Of a secondary school. My youngest was about half-way up the school at the time. It would have meant that before the time my stint was finished he'd have left. Seems daft to me.
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    SeanT said:

    Relatedly, I've just been to the East Finchley Summer Festival in Cherry Tree Gardens, London N2. Lots of young families, brass bands, also rappers, church tombolas, cricketing girls, tennis coaching, Polish teen girls in hotpants, Sikh men eyeing them up, i.e. multicultural London picnicking under the sun.

    One of the stalls was advertising the Archer Academy, a Free School now up and running in East Finchley, filling a much needed void.

    I don't know about the rest of Britain, but in London N2 Michael Gove's "flagship policy" is very popular, and this is quite a lefty suburb.

    Indeed as I walked out of the park I overheard a fab conversation between a youngish couple.

    Her, "oh I like this park, been coming here since I was eleven"

    Him: "No, it's horrible. I cycled through it last week and everyone was reading the f*cking Guardian"

    "I don't know about the rest of Britain, but in London N2 Michael Gove's "flagship policy" is very popular, and this is quite a lefty suburb."

    There's another aspect to Free Schools in the leafier parts of London (lefty or otherwise) which is people wanting a lifeboat to keep their kids out of the state system.
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    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    A presentation on free schools here (part 1 of 4) if anyone interested:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWgtpJkDpeY
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,337

    GeoffM said:

    Yay. A thread on Mike's Gove fixation. Great.

    Gove will lose the election for the Tories. Today's polling is a further indication of this.
    Of course I'm going to be fixated on an area where the Tories are shedding votes as we've seen in the teacher specific surveys.
    438,000 teachers = about 284,000 votes
    8 million school children, approx 12million parents involved = about 8 million votes.

    Now why would one small producer interest shift a GE?
    Parents don't generally vote on the basis of schools policy (mainly because, good or bad, it's not obvious that Government policy is decisively affecting the local school). Teachers do vote to a significant extent on the basis of school policy, and I've met a fair number of teachers who've switched to Labour on the issue - though not, I'd think, an election-deciding number.

    I met public sector staff under the previous government who voted Tory in the belief that a Tory government would interfere less in their daily work - let professionals be professionals and all that. That hasn't been their experience under Gove with his micromanagement down to the level of whether a particular book should be taught. (By contrast, it's not been particularly a complaint about Tory health ministers - privatisation, limited funding, but not micromanagement.)

  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "MH370 captain plotted route to southern Indian Ocean on home simulator

    Detectives investigating the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 three months ago discover new evidence which has renewed suspicions about its pilot"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10917868/MH370-captain-plotted-route-to-southern-Indian-Ocean-on-home-simulator.html
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2014
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I don't know about the rest of Britain, but in London N2 Michael Gove's "flagship policy" is very popular, and this is quite a lefty suburb.

    So lefty that the people of Finchley were among the first to elect a woman to parliament when no-one had even heard of AWS's. Margaret Somehing-or-other; went on to be Prime Minister.
    East Finchley is now fashionable (believe it or not) when once it was dowdy. Hence the influx of Guardian reading, affluent, trendy families, and lots of leftier voters.

    Not unrelatedly, a pleasant two bed flat in East Finchley costs £400,000. Quite cheap for a well connected London suburb, horribly expensive for anywhere else in the world.

    London is different to the UK, and gets more different by the day.
    The situation isn't sustainable. Something has to give. Either London has to try harder to be like the rest of the country, or it should become an independent city state.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,770
    I'm amazed so many people are negative about free schools. as I don't know many people who are aware what they are at all. Don't know enough people with kids I guess.
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059

    GeoffM said:

    Yay. A thread on Mike's Gove fixation. Great.

    Gove will lose the election for the Tories. Today's polling is a further indication of this.

    Of course I'm going to be fixated on an area where the Tories are shedding votes as we've seen in the teacher specific surveys.

    I think the sun is making some become a little less temperate than normal.
  • Options
    Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    While people may not agree with them, other than teacher activists who will vote Labour anyway I cant see anyone feeling strongly enough to base their vote on this. Looks like straw clutching to me.

    Historically, all schools were free schools until the tories nationalised them in the run up to world war one so they could impose drill practice on the young cannon fodder. (the C of E owned most beforehand and refused to allow this). Since then the left has gradually taken over and turned many into socialist indoctrination factories. It is the threat to these socialist indoctrination factories that excites the anti Govers.

    So in principle I'm in favour of free schools, in practice its probably more complex, particularly in rural areas.
  • Options
    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    edited June 2014

    GeoffM said:

    Yay. A thread on Mike's Gove fixation. Great.

    Gove will lose the election for the Tories. Today's polling is a further indication of this.
    Of course I'm going to be fixated on an area where the Tories are shedding votes as we've seen in the teacher specific surveys.
    438,000 teachers = about 284,000 votes
    8 million school children, approx 12million parents involved = about 8 million votes.

    Now why would one small producer interest shift a GE?
    Parents don't generally vote on the basis of schools policy (mainly because, good or bad, it's not obvious that Government policy is decisively affecting the local school). Teachers do vote to a significant extent on the basis of school policy, and I've met a fair number of teachers who've switched to Labour on the issue - though not, I'd think, an election-deciding number.

    I met public sector staff under the previous government who voted Tory in the belief that a Tory government would interfere less in their daily work - let professionals be professionals and all that. That hasn't been their experience under Gove with his micromanagement down to the level of whether a particular book should be taught. (By contrast, it's not been particularly a complaint about Tory health ministers - privatisation, limited funding, but not micromanagement.)

    I met plently of public sector workers who voted Labour in the previous election because they thought the Tories would cut their pay or jobs entirely. Fair enough but then how well known is it that Balls backed the 1% pay limit in the public sector and may still do so for all I know - it's so rarely mentioned as one actual example of addressing the deficit by both sides for some reason? I guess it's in neither parties interest to draw attention to that!!
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    murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,040
    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I don't know about the rest of Britain, but in London N2 Michael Gove's "flagship policy" is very popular, and this is quite a lefty suburb.

    So lefty that the people of Finchley were among the first to elect a woman to parliament when no-one had even heard of AWS's. Margaret Somehing-or-other; went on to be Prime Minister.
    East Finchley is now fashionable (believe it or not) when once it was dowdy. Hence the influx of Guardian reading, affluent, trendy families, and lots of leftier voters.

    Not unrelatedly, a pleasant two bed flat in East Finchley costs £400,000. Quite cheap for a well connected London suburb, horribly expensive for anywhere else in the world.

    London is different to the UK, and gets more different by the day.
    The situation isn't sustainable. Something has to give. Either London has to try harder to be like the rest of the country, or it should become an independent city state.
    Is there any civilised life outside the M25? ;-)
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Nick Clegg has become "toxic" on the doorstep, despite being a "nice guy", a former Liberal Democrat leader of Liverpool city council has warned.

    As the former party leader Sir Menzies Campbell said the Lib Dems would need to rebuild "from the bottom up" after losing all but one of their MEPs, Lord Storey said Clegg has become an unpopular figure in his home city."

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/22/nick-clegg-toxic-on-doorstep-nice-guy-lord-storey
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,995

    While people may not agree with them, other than teacher activists who will vote Labour anyway I cant see anyone feeling strongly enough to base their vote on this. Looks like straw clutching to me.

    Historically, all schools were free schools until the tories nationalised them in the run up to world war one so they could impose drill practice on the young cannon fodder. (the C of E owned most beforehand and refused to allow this). Since then the left has gradually taken over and turned many into socialist indoctrination factories. It is the threat to these socialist indoctrination factories that excites the anti Govers.

    So in principle I'm in favour of free schools, in practice its probably more complex, particularly in rural areas.

    Not quite; there was such a variation in standards and teacher quality that the government in the 1880's or so had to step and standardise things. And the Tories were out of power from 1905 onwards.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    murali_s said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I don't know about the rest of Britain, but in London N2 Michael Gove's "flagship policy" is very popular, and this is quite a lefty suburb.

    So lefty that the people of Finchley were among the first to elect a woman to parliament when no-one had even heard of AWS's. Margaret Somehing-or-other; went on to be Prime Minister.
    East Finchley is now fashionable (believe it or not) when once it was dowdy. Hence the influx of Guardian reading, affluent, trendy families, and lots of leftier voters.

    Not unrelatedly, a pleasant two bed flat in East Finchley costs £400,000. Quite cheap for a well connected London suburb, horribly expensive for anywhere else in the world.

    London is different to the UK, and gets more different by the day.
    The situation isn't sustainable. Something has to give. Either London has to try harder to be like the rest of the country, or it should become an independent city state.
    Is there any civilised life outside the M25? ;-)
    Yes, you cheeky git...! ;- )
  • Options
    murali_s said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I don't know about the rest of Britain, but in London N2 Michael Gove's "flagship policy" is very popular, and this is quite a lefty suburb.

    So lefty that the people of Finchley were among the first to elect a woman to parliament when no-one had even heard of AWS's. Margaret Somehing-or-other; went on to be Prime Minister.
    East Finchley is now fashionable (believe it or not) when once it was dowdy. Hence the influx of Guardian reading, affluent, trendy families, and lots of leftier voters.

    Not unrelatedly, a pleasant two bed flat in East Finchley costs £400,000. Quite cheap for a well connected London suburb, horribly expensive for anywhere else in the world.

    London is different to the UK, and gets more different by the day.
    The situation isn't sustainable. Something has to give. Either London has to try harder to be like the rest of the country, or it should become an independent city state.
    Is there any civilised life outside the M25? ;-)
    Not really.
    *Posted from the lawless border region of Potters Bar*

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    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805

    GeoffM said:

    Yay. A thread on Mike's Gove fixation. Great.

    Gove will lose the election for the Tories. Today's polling is a further indication of this.
    Of course I'm going to be fixated on an area where the Tories are shedding votes as we've seen in the teacher specific surveys.
    438,000 teachers = about 284,000 votes
    8 million school children, approx 12million parents involved = about 8 million votes.

    Now why would one small producer interest shift a GE?
    Parents don't generally vote on the basis of schools policy (mainly because, good or bad, it's not obvious that Government policy is decisively affecting the local school). Teachers do vote to a significant extent on the basis of school policy, and I've met a fair number of teachers who've switched to Labour on the issue - though not, I'd think, an election-deciding number.

    I met public sector staff under the previous government who voted Tory in the belief that a Tory government would interfere less in their daily work - let professionals be professionals and all that. That hasn't been their experience under Gove with his micromanagement down to the level of whether a particular book should be taught. (By contrast, it's not been particularly a complaint about Tory health ministers - privatisation, limited funding, but not micromanagement.)

    A lot of the stick Gove got for taking those texts off the examined list (which means, in effect, that they won't be taught) wasn't from teachers, but from academics etc. Most teachers are sick to death of teaching 'Of Mice & Men'. The problem for schools is finding the money to replace set texts and for teachers the time to prep for teaching them.
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    Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    FPT
    GeoffM said:

    It seems that Foxinsox's dictum applies:

    The definition of fair taxation is a tax paid by other people.

    There is no such thing as a "fair" tax whoever pays it.

    Why all this discussion of extra taxation as though that is some sort of inevitability?

    How about the government simply not spending as much and letting people spend their own money?

    It is some sort of inevitability because we are running a whopping national deficit and we are a democracy with no qualification on the franchise. That means any government who goes down the path you suggest will go the way of the canadian Conservatives because if those without money (or much intelligence) lose their free healthcare, houses and schools and benefit money they will vote for someone offering bread and circuses.

    That said I don't think anyone sensible would want the end of the NHS and to have to pay for schools. It would also result in the collapse of the birthrate which would endanger the economy even further within a generation.

    I also note that low tax conservative voting types in Somerset were all too keen for the state to intervene with state aid during the recent floods. A low tax government might just shrug their shoulders and tell them to sort their own problems out. These things work both ways.

    What I fear is that the NHS and state schools will be slowly throttled so that while they technically exist, no one other than the desperate would use them. Similarly benefits will be eroded by inflation over the next 20 years to become worthless and we will swing from one extreme end of the spectrum to the other.
  • Options
    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805

    GeoffM said:

    Yay. A thread on Mike's Gove fixation. Great.

    Gove will lose the election for the Tories. Today's polling is a further indication of this.
    Of course I'm going to be fixated on an area where the Tories are shedding votes as we've seen in the teacher specific surveys.
    438,000 teachers = about 284,000 votes
    8 million school children, approx 12million parents involved = about 8 million votes.

    Now why would one small producer interest shift a GE?
    Parents don't generally vote on the basis of schools policy (mainly because, good or bad, it's not obvious that Government policy is decisively affecting the local school). Teachers do vote to a significant extent on the basis of school policy, and I've met a fair number of teachers who've switched to Labour on the issue - though not, I'd think, an election-deciding number.

    I met public sector staff under the previous government who voted Tory in the belief that a Tory government would interfere less in their daily work - let professionals be professionals and all that. That hasn't been their experience under Gove with his micromanagement down to the level of whether a particular book should be taught. (By contrast, it's not been particularly a complaint about Tory health ministers - privatisation, limited funding, but not micromanagement.)

    And teachers - from those I know and from what I've heard/read - aren't all that impressed with THunt.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Nick Clegg's Sheffield Hallam is officially the most civilised place in the country. That's official. According to the statistics.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,337
    Another example of the long shadow cast on the Conservatives' natural allies by the decision to form the ECR group (aka as the Latvian homophobes issue):

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/22/jean-claude-juncker-britain-eu
  • Options
    Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409

    While people may not agree with them, other than teacher activists who will vote Labour anyway I cant see anyone feeling strongly enough to base their vote on this. Looks like straw clutching to me.

    Historically, all schools were free schools until the tories nationalised them in the run up to world war one so they could impose drill practice on the young cannon fodder. (the C of E owned most beforehand and refused to allow this). Since then the left has gradually taken over and turned many into socialist indoctrination factories. It is the threat to these socialist indoctrination factories that excites the anti Govers.

    So in principle I'm in favour of free schools, in practice its probably more complex, particularly in rural areas.

    Not quite; there was such a variation in standards and teacher quality that the government in the 1880's or so had to step and standardise things. And the Tories were out of power from 1905 onwards.
    I'm talking about the Balfour government education act of 1902
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    GeoffM said:

    Yay. A thread on Mike's Gove fixation. Great.

    Gove will lose the election for the Tories. Today's polling is a further indication of this.
    Of course I'm going to be fixated on an area where the Tories are shedding votes as we've seen in the teacher specific surveys.
    438,000 teachers = about 284,000 votes
    8 million school children, approx 12million parents involved = about 8 million votes.

    Now why would one small producer interest shift a GE?
    Parents don't generally vote on the basis of schools policy (mainly because, good or bad, it's not obvious that Government policy is decisively affecting the local school). Teachers do vote to a significant extent on the basis of school policy, and I've met a fair number of teachers who've switched to Labour on the issue - though not, I'd think, an election-deciding number.

    I met public sector staff under the previous government who voted Tory in the belief that a Tory government would interfere less in their daily work - let professionals be professionals and all that. That hasn't been their experience under Gove with his micromanagement down to the level of whether a particular book should be taught. (By contrast, it's not been particularly a complaint about Tory health ministers - privatisation, limited funding, but not micromanagement.)

    That does get to the nub of the issue. The problem with Gove is not free schools; it's that schools are not free enough. He has done a lot to centralise command and control at his own desk.

    Gove's policy of developing a much more diverse marketplace in the provision of education is entirely right. Where he has failed is in not having the courage of his convictions and letting them do their own thing. Providing that there's sufficient information available to local parents and press about how schools perform, market pressures will deliver the rest. Parents are well aware of what 'good' schools are and schools will respond to that demand.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Another aspect of the problem with education provision is the desire for authorities to see 100% provision of places in the belief that it's 'efficient'. In reality, it's too few and results in kids being consigned to duff schools that neither they nor their parents want, simply because there are places there. For any market to work, there always has to be more provision than is necessary to enable choice.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    Another example of the long shadow cast on the Conservatives' natural allies by the decision to form the ECR group (aka as the Latvian homophobes issue):

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/22/jean-claude-juncker-britain-eu

    Christian Democracy does not have much in common with British Conservatism. That's why a separate group is needed.

  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Another example of the long shadow cast on the Conservatives' natural allies by the decision to form the ECR group (aka as the Latvian homophobes issue):

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/22/jean-claude-juncker-britain-eu

    The members of the EPP are not natural allies of the Tories; they are essentially Blairites (or more accurately, Blair was essentially a Christian Democrat). They are a federalist grouping which is a long way out of line with majority Conservative thinking. Would the Tories have had any more influence within the EPP? I doubt it - they'd just have been outvoted there too.

    The reality is that the EPP can only get their candidate because the Socialists will back him - a Grand Coalition against the anti-Euro and anti-EU insurgents on the far-left and -right. In a PR parliament, there's often more to be said for being a swing vote outside a group (or Coalition) than an outvoted minority within one. The Socialists won't always back the EPP and they would do well to keep the ECR relatively sweet.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    On topic, education policy will be marginal, not decisive, at the next election.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Definitely not. Here in the East Midlands we are rutting, boozing and fighting with each other. Civilizatjon is overated...
    murali_s said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I don't know about the rest of Britain, but in London N2 Michael Gove's "flagship policy" is very popular, and this is quite a lefty suburb.

    So lefty that the people of Finchley were among the first to elect a woman to parliament when no-one had even heard of AWS's. Margaret Somehing-or-other; went on to be Prime Minister.
    East Finchley is now fashionable (believe it or not) when once it was dowdy. Hence the influx of Guardian reading, affluent, trendy families, and lots of leftier voters.

    Not unrelatedly, a pleasant two bed flat in East Finchley costs £400,000. Quite cheap for a well connected London suburb, horribly expensive for anywhere else in the world.

    London is different to the UK, and gets more different by the day.
    The situation isn't sustainable. Something has to give. Either London has to try harder to be like the rest of the country, or it should become an independent city state.
    Is there any civilised life outside the M25? ;-)
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DavidPrescott: B'Stard's back! ITV repeat 1st series of The New Statesman from tonight @10.30 #biggestmajorityinthehouseofcommons http://t.co/BunibzNYPf
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,995

    While people may not agree with them, other than teacher activists who will vote Labour anyway I cant see anyone feeling strongly enough to base their vote on this. Looks like straw clutching to me.

    Historically, all schools were free schools until the tories nationalised them in the run up to world war one so they could impose drill practice on the young cannon fodder. (the C of E owned most beforehand and refused to allow this). Since then the left has gradually taken over and turned many into socialist indoctrination factories. It is the threat to these socialist indoctrination factories that excites the anti Govers.

    So in principle I'm in favour of free schools, in practice its probably more complex, particularly in rural areas.

    Not quite; there was such a variation in standards and teacher quality that the government in the 1880's or so had to step and standardise things. And the Tories were out of power from 1905 onwards.
    I'm talking about the Balfour government education act of 1902
    What the 1902 (to be fair) Act and subsequent Governments did was to ensure that young people were fit. The recruiters of the Boer War were horrified by the poor fitness standards of working class lads and as a consequence ensured that there were free school meals for those who needed it.

    As I said, poor standards in the shambles that existed earlier.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,454
    Two of my favourite organisations in the same story, which really did make me laugh

    A BBC documentary to be screened on Monday will reveal South Yorkshire Police spent £500,000 to control an EDL protest against a planned mosque - that turned out to be a KFC.

    The programme 'Police Under Pressure' documents how false rumours a pub was to be turned into a mosque sparked the demonstration between Page Hall and Parson Cross in Sheffield.

    Around 1200 extra officers from 15 different forces had to be called upon, hitting the already cash-strapped force with the massive bill.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/06/22/edl-march-mosque-kfc-police-_n_5519324.html?1403449342
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    GeoffM said:

    Yay. A thread on Mike's Gove fixation. Great.

    Gove will lose the election for the Tories. Today's polling is a further indication of this.




    Yet our school went Academy 2 years ago and has gone from strength to strength improving its Ofsted rating by 2 levels.

    The people who don't like these schools always seem to be people who don't send their kids to one. Or teachers who see their cosy supply side nonsense under threat.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    It does look as if it is going to be a tight election, so even if education only matters to a few percent it may be all the difference.
    Sean_F said:

    On topic, education policy will be marginal, not decisive, at the next election.

  • Options
    Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited June 2014
    What is chukka umanna on about?

    Labour are more and more coming across as a bunch of londoncentric slightly odd navel gazers unaware of what happens beyond the M25.

    This email aware UKIP supporter is really beginning to wonder if labour are deliberately trying to lose the next election. To be fair I can't say I blame them, given whats in store for us economically in a year or two when the chickens come home to roost.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    It does look as if it is going to be a tight election, so even if education only matters to a few percent it may be all the difference.

    Sean_F said:

    On topic, education policy will be marginal, not decisive, at the next election.

    That could true of many issues, which excite passionate interest among a small number, though.

  • Options
    Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited June 2014

    Definitely not. Here in the East Midlands we are rutting, boozing and fighting with each other. Civilizatjon is overated...

    murali_s said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I don't know about the rest of Britain, but in London N2 Michael Gove's "flagship policy" is very popular, and this is quite a lefty suburb.

    So lefty that the people of Finchley were among the first to elect a woman to parliament when no-one had even heard of AWS's. Margaret Somehing-or-other; went on to be Prime Minister.
    East Finchley is now fashionable (believe it or not) when once it was dowdy. Hence the influx of Guardian reading, affluent, trendy families, and lots of leftier voters.

    Not unrelatedly, a pleasant two bed flat in East Finchley costs £400,000. Quite cheap for a well connected London suburb, horribly expensive for anywhere else in the world.

    London is different to the UK, and gets more different by the day.
    The situation isn't sustainable. Something has to give. Either London has to try harder to be like the rest of the country, or it should become an independent city state.
    Is there any civilised life outside the M25? ;-)
    The truth is that many of us got out of London to rather more pleasant places beyond the M25. I used to live in Chukka Umannas constituency (it was still tory only 22 years ago). I can't say I miss the place. Pay twice as much for a smaller house, to live in an area choked with traffic 24/7 that takes an hours driving through it to get out of london and put up with five times the crime rate, appalling schools, overcrowded hospitals and GP surgeries so busy it takes days to get appointment. No thanks. Plus it only takes me five minutes longer from central Befds to get to work in central London than it took from Streatham and the trains are not full up before I get on.

    I think people thinking London is a wonderful place to live in is a good example of mass delusion. It is for a few wealthy people who can afford to live in the centre with a weekend retreat in the country, but most of it is an overcrowded, over developed hole.
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    Scott_P said:

    @DavidPrescott: B'Stard's back! ITV repeat 1st series of The New Statesman from tonight @10.30 #biggestmajorityinthehouseofcommons http://t.co/BunibzNYPf

    Thanks for the heads up.
    Long past my bedtime so will hit the series link on the Tivo box

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    True enough. My vote is more likely to be shifted by health policy than most.

    Incidentally, every one of my GP friends heads sank at Milibands 48 hour pledge for appointments. More arbitrary targets to be met by putting something else on the back burner. No wonder the East Midlands GP scheme has 38% vacancies unfilled in the training scheme.
    Sean_F said:

    It does look as if it is going to be a tight election, so even if education only matters to a few percent it may be all the difference.

    Sean_F said:

    On topic, education policy will be marginal, not decisive, at the next election.

    That could true of many issues, which excite passionate interest among a small number, though.

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Ssssh! You are letting the cat out of the bag!



    Definitely not. Here in the East Midlands we are rutting, boozing and fighting with each other. Civilizatjon is overated...

    murali_s said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I don't know about the rest of Britain, but in London N2 Michael Gove's "flagship policy" is very popular, and this is quite a lefty suburb.

    So lefty that the people of Finchley were among the first to elect a woman to parliament when no-one had even heard of AWS's. Margaret Somehing-or-other; went on to be Prime Minister.
    East Finchley is now fashionable (believe it or not) when once it was dowdy. Hence the influx of Guardian reading, affluent, trendy families, and lots of leftier voters.

    Not unrelatedly, a pleasant two bed flat in East Finchley costs £400,000. Quite cheap for a well connected London suburb, horribly expensive for anywhere else in the world.

    London is different to the UK, and gets more different by the day.
    The situation isn't sustainable. Something has to give. Either London has to try harder to be like the rest of the country, or it should become an independent city state.
    Is there any civilised life outside the M25? ;-)
    The truth is that many of us got out of London to rather more pleasant places beyond the M25. I used to live in Chukka Umannas constituency (it was still tory only 22 years ago). I can't say I miss the place. Pay twice as much for a smaller house, to live in an area choked with traffic 24/7 that takes an hours driving through it to get out of london and put up with five times the crime rate, appalling schools, overcrowded hospitals and GP surgeries so busy it takes days to get appointment. No thanks. Plus it only takes me five minutes longer from central Befds to get to work in central London than it took from Streatham and the trains are not full up before I get on.

    I think people thinking London is a wonderful place to live in is a good example of mass delusion. It is for a few wealthy people who can afford to live in the centre with a weekend retreat in the country, but most of it is an overcrowded, over developed hole.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "The press are eager to inform us about free schools perceived to be failing. This is understandable: free schools are the flagship reform of a current government minister and their troubles make good news stories.

    However there are schools across the country that are failing, many of which were once flagship examples of an altogether different vintage of government policy. Building Schools for the Future (BSF) began in 2005, and coincided with an enthusiastic revival in progressive education during the New Labour years. These were the heady days of personalisation, independent learning, multiple intelligences, SEAL, learning styles, 21st century skills and thinking hats. Many new BSF schools were built at extravagant costs to fulfil such a vision."


    http://goodbyemisterhunter.wordpress.com/2014/05/07/they-were-the-future-once/
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,454
    Cash out strategy works again
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,454
    2 Nil, glad cash out was temporarily unavailable.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    Another example of the long shadow cast on the Conservatives' natural allies by the decision to form the ECR group (aka as the Latvian homophobes issue):

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/22/jean-claude-juncker-britain-eu

    The members of the EPP are not natural allies of the Tories; they are essentially Blairites (or more accurately, Blair was essentially a Christian Democrat). They are a federalist grouping which is a long way out of line with majority Conservative thinking.
    How would Conservative Party policy differ if they were a 'federalist' party?
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Gove will lose the election for the Tories. Today's polling is a further indication of this.

    Hmmn.

    I wonder what this year's PISA results will tell us. How will state-run Wales fare against academy England??

    It would be interesting if Free school academy England started to shake itself out of the educational torpor that has afflicted the country since Labour took over (Labour Wales has already told people not to expect any improvement).

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    O/T & apols if already posted
    This must rank as one of the most unsurprising stories of the day

    http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/59086/tony-blair-accused-of-lies-over-syrian-wmds?
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I've put a small bet on the 10/1 odds on more than 5.5 goals.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    South Korea has been watching the England boyts defend :D
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Why is there so much speculation surrounding ed miliband's suitability as leader (even in the Guardian) when labour are rallying a bit in the polls?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    AndyJS said:

    I've put a small bet on the 10/1 odds on more than 5.5 goals.

    Great bet
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pleased I got on that before it dropped to 4.8.
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    Definitely not. Here in the East Midlands we are rutting, boozing and fighting with each other. Civilizatjon is overated...

    murali_s said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I don't know about the rest of Britain, but in London N2 Michael Gove's "flagship policy" is very popular, and this is quite a lefty suburb.

    So lefty that the people of Finchley were among the first to elect a woman to parliament when no-one had even heard of AWS's. Margaret Somehing-or-other; went on to be Prime Minister.
    East Finchley is now fashionable (believe it or not) when once it was dowdy. Hence the influx of Guardian reading, affluent, trendy families, and lots of leftier voters.

    Not unrelatedly, a pleasant two bed flat in East Finchley costs £400,000. Quite cheap for a well connected London suburb, horribly expensive for anywhere else in the world.

    London is different to the UK, and gets more different by the day.
    The situation isn't sustainable. Something has to give. Either London has to try harder to be like the rest of the country, or it should become an independent city state.
    Is there any civilised life outside the M25? ;-)
    The truth is that many of us got out of London to rather more pleasant places beyond the M25. I used to live in Chukka Umannas constituency (it was still tory only 22 years ago). I can't say I miss the place. Pay twice as much for a smaller house, to live in an area choked with traffic 24/7 that takes an hours driving through it to get out of london and put up with five times the crime rate, appalling schools, overcrowded hospitals and GP surgeries so busy it takes days to get appointment. No thanks. Plus it only takes me five minutes longer from central Befds to get to work in central London than it took from Streatham and the trains are not full up before I get on.

    I think people thinking London is a wonderful place to live in is a good example of mass delusion. It is for a few wealthy people who can afford to live in the centre with a weekend retreat in the country, but most of it is an overcrowded, over developed hole.
    There's a segment of people now who can only afford to live in the safe islands in the cities by paying a massive premium on their housing costs which means they can't afford things like private schools any more.

    I assumed that was the main driver for Free Schools and why I didn't care much either way as 50-60 DIY private schools for cash-poor posh people in London wasn't going to matter much.

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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    taffys said:

    Why is there so much speculation surrounding ed miliband's suitability as leader (even in the Guardian) when labour are rallying a bit in the polls?

    The Blairites were up for a coup from day one. The only thing that held them back was the belief that the Cameroons were guaranteed to lose so best not to rock the boat.

    The Ukip wild card and the B;ack Swan of this flood of (pick one) [hot oligarch money or righteous international investment] has made it look iffy.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,945
    Just thinking about Chukka's very strange (some might even say wild eyed) notions about UKIP.

    It seems to me that the clearest evidence against his proposition that UKIP voters are less technologically advanced than other voters is the fact that, as has often been pointed out on PB, UKIP seems to get better poll ratings in the online polls than in the old fashioned phone polls. Surely this indicates that UKIP supporters are more, rather than less, au fait with email and browsing the internet than the average voter?
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited June 2014
    Polliing Day in the general election is as close to today as the end of first week of August 2013.At that time YouGov were putting Lab at 38-39% Con 31-34% LD 10-11% UKIP 11-12%. Not a lot has changed.
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    Just thinking about Chukka's very strange (some might even say wild eyed) notions about UKIP.

    It seems to me that the clearest evidence against his proposition that UKIP voters are less technologically advanced than other voters is the fact that, as has often been pointed out on PB, UKIP seems to get better poll ratings in the online polls than in the old fashioned phone polls. Surely this indicates that UKIP supporters are more, rather than less, au fait with email and browsing the internet than the average voter?

    Labour never need to bother themselves with trifling details like reality in their criticism of others. Some of the lefty Facebook posts about genocide of the poor and the final solution for benefit claimants because of IDS have been a sight to behold
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,995

    True enough. My vote is more likely to be shifted by health policy than most.

    Incidentally, every one of my GP friends heads sank at Milibands 48 hour pledge for appointments. More arbitrary targets to be met by putting something else on the back burner. No wonder the East Midlands GP scheme has 38% vacancies unfilled in the training scheme.

    Sean_F said:

    It does look as if it is going to be a tight election, so even if education only matters to a few percent it may be all the difference.

    Sean_F said:

    On topic, education policy will be marginal, not decisive, at the next election.

    That could true of many issues, which excite passionate interest among a small number, though.

    Such a pledge is but one example of a knee-jerk reaction to a problem, not a properly thought through response. Both sides do it!
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    UKIP must be cockahoop with Chuka's insults today. Just what they needed.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Another example of the long shadow cast on the Conservatives' natural allies by the decision to form the ECR group (aka as the Latvian homophobes issue):

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/22/jean-claude-juncker-britain-eu

    The members of the EPP are not natural allies of the Tories; they are essentially Blairites (or more accurately, Blair was essentially a Christian Democrat). They are a federalist grouping which is a long way out of line with majority Conservative thinking.
    How would Conservative Party policy differ if they were a 'federalist' party?
    It wouldn't be looking for the sort of reform it is, nor threatening to leave if it can't get it, for a start.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Perhaps sub 48 hour appointments could be delivered if the parties seriously addressed the crisis in General Practice recruitment, or even aknowledged the problem exists.

    True enough. My vote is more likely to be shifted by health policy than most.

    Incidentally, every one of my GP friends heads sank at Milibands 48 hour pledge for appointments. More arbitrary targets to be met by putting something else on the back burner. No wonder the East Midlands GP scheme has 38% vacancies unfilled in the training scheme.

    Sean_F said:

    It does look as if it is going to be a tight election, so even if education only matters to a few percent it may be all the difference.

    Sean_F said:

    On topic, education policy will be marginal, not decisive, at the next election.

    That could true of many issues, which excite passionate interest among a small number, though.

    Such a pledge is but one example of a knee-jerk reaction to a problem, not a properly thought through response. Both sides do it!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    justin124 said:

    Polliing Day in the general election is as close to today as the end of first week of August 2013.At that time YouGov were putting Lab at 38-39% Con 31-34% LD 10-11% UKIP 11-12%. Not a lot has changed.

    Lib Dems have slid a bit
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    Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    AndyJS said:

    UKIP must be cockahoop with Chuka's insults today. Just what they needed.

    Especially as they were fading out of the press and public attention the last couple of weeks.

    I suspect Labours internal polling them is spooking them, as their 35% strategy won't work if a chunk of their core goes all Farage.

    Mr Umanna ought to perhaps adhere to the adage "Do not feed the troll"
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    Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited June 2014

    Perhaps sub 48 hour appointments could be delivered if the parties seriously addressed the crisis in General Practice recruitment, or even aknowledged the problem exists.

    True enough. My vote is more likely to be shifted by health policy than most.

    Incidentally, every one of my GP friends heads sank at Milibands 48 hour pledge for appointments. More arbitrary targets to be met by putting something else on the back burner. No wonder the East Midlands GP scheme has 38% vacancies unfilled in the training scheme.

    Sean_F said:

    It does look as if it is going to be a tight election, so even if education only matters to a few percent it may be all the difference.

    Sean_F said:

    On topic, education policy will be marginal, not decisive, at the next election.

    That could true of many issues, which excite passionate interest among a small number, though.

    Such a pledge is but one example of a knee-jerk reaction to a problem, not a properly thought through response. Both sides do it!
    Speak for yourself ! If I don;t get an appointment same day I'm fed up. Provided you turn up first thing in the morning at the surgery you can normally get one of the appointments that are only released that mornings. If its really busy so you can't get a doctor you can normally see the practice nurse and she can make prescriptions for run of the mill things. But then I live somewhere civilized, not London :-) I don't think people are generally aware of the massive massive difference in the quality of public services such as schools and hospitals between cities and market towns in rural areas, despite the fact that we get much lower grants per head than inner cities.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,779
    Mike, you most certainly know that the question isn't being received as stated. The response is about the perceived failure of the system.

    The teaching vote has always been Labour. Moreover it's been a blind adherence. Teachers really should be able to account for themselves in a better way.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    @AndyJS Well done
This discussion has been closed.