More people will die if ministers respond to populist campaigns like this – politicalbetting.com
More people will die if ministers respond to populist campaigns like this – politicalbetting.com
The issue here who is going to be next in the vaccination queue once categories 1-4 have been completed which should be by the middle of February. The current plan is to go to group five which is people in their 60s NOT teachers or other groups for which the media can whip up special pleading.
Comments
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First.
The header is right. Govt has no option, political or scientific, other than to hold the line on this.6 -
Second. I think the position taken by Mr Starmer and Ms Nandy wrt teachers is perhaps a bigger problem. How are they persuaded to back down?
Perhaps also, those who value their cynicism wrt Boris over scientific advice.2 -
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Agree with OGH. One reason for the younger wanting to prioritise for the older may be at that distance the older appear really old - and people they know of that age will be grandparents, rather than parents.2
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I'm totally with Mike on this one.
I think it's one of those knee-jerk populist policies, beloved of old Labour, which will be systematically and repeatedly pulled apart over the coming days.1 -
We’ve had the same special pleading here - each time the CMO simply asks “ok, which higher risk group are you going to take the jabs from?” Answer comes there none....Mysticrose said:I'm totally with Mike on this one.
I think it's one of those knee-jerk populist policies, beloved of old Labour, which will be systematically and repeatedly pulled apart over the coming days.
6 -
Mirror newspaper= garbage. Ignore.1
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The header is wrong because it assumes the limiting factor will continue to be supply. Even now, we read of doctors looking for volunteers to use leftover vaccine after their lists have been completed. Soon, more vaccines will come on stream and production of the existing ones will increase. We have contracts with seven different manufacturers. The past two threads have included arguments as to whether unused supplies should go to Europe or the Commonwealth.
It is also wrong in saying that the current age-based priority list targets the most vulnerable. This may have been true at the start but, for instance, we have been told that BAME people are more likely to catch and to die from Covid-19, yet they are not prioritised. Nor for that matter are covidiots on foreign holidays.0 -
p.s. Another great 'winter' test match building to a thrilling climax, this time Pakistan vs S Africa.
The Proteas are 75 runs ahead in their final innings with 4 wickets remaining.1 -
This week's Spectator TV on Youtube includes Andrew Neil talking to a vaccines expert who made the point that when talking about sending unused supply to Europe, it is more likely to be a question of reassingning contracted but undrawn capacity owing to questions of licensing and labelling (in which language?). At least I think that is what he said.1
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Watching it now. Does this (official Pakistan Cricket) link work in the U.K?Mysticrose said:p.s. Another great 'winter' test match building to a thrilling climax, this time Pakistan vs S Africa.
The Proteas are 75 runs ahead in their final innings with 4 wickets remaining.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=cvIkW5SRSLQ0 -
I'm not sure. I'm streaming it here: https://cricket-live.stream/watch/pakistan-live-free.htmlSandpit said:
Watching it now. Does this (official Pakistan Cricket) link work in the U.K?Mysticrose said:p.s. Another great 'winter' test match building to a thrilling climax, this time Pakistan vs S Africa.
The Proteas are 75 runs ahead in their final innings with 4 wickets remaining.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=cvIkW5SRSLQ
0 -
Mirror doing Labour’s bidding again, with no evidence to support the special pleading of public sector Unions.
There’s two issues with schools. One is staff absence due to exposure or catching the virus itself, the other is asymptomatic children passing it between families.
Vaccinating teachers solves neither issue, as we are telling vaccinated people to still isolate if they have contact with the virus, and even if they all have the first jab tomorrow it will be May before they’re all fully immune.
Not to mention there’s still millions of vulnerable and elderly parents and grandparents out there unvaccinated. They are next month’s covid deaths.5 -
I think what we do when we are into a prospect of a serious surplus of availability in UK vaccines is an interesting one.
My suggestion would be as some others have been discussing - use it where it can make a big difference. I would love to be able to horse trade for eg Market Equivalence, but I do not think that can be justified.
My suggested priorities would be towards countries with links, developing countries esp Commonwealth, smaller countries where a big difference can be made, to mitigate impact of any EU export-intervention, and perhaps hotspots.
It's a devil of a thing to order, though - needs clear principles as we have for vaccine priority, and a small amount of pragmatism.
Perhaps Overseas Territories, ROI / Portugal, small Commonwealth countries and developing. Malta and Cyprus?
4 -
7 down now. Its live on Sky SportsMysticrose said:
I'm not sure. I'm streaming it here: https://cricket-live.stream/watch/pakistan-live-free.htmlSandpit said:
Watching it now. Does this (official Pakistan Cricket) link work in the U.K?Mysticrose said:p.s. Another great 'winter' test match building to a thrilling climax, this time Pakistan vs S Africa.
The Proteas are 75 runs ahead in their final innings with 4 wickets remaining.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=cvIkW5SRSLQ0 -
Three wickets remaining. Pakistan should be favourites from here, unless the Saffas can run up another hundred for those last three.Mysticrose said:p.s. Another great 'winter' test match building to a thrilling climax, this time Pakistan vs S Africa.
The Proteas are 75 runs ahead in their final innings with 4 wickets remaining.
(Not that I ever bet on matches involving Pakistan)1 -
Then what are we waiting for? Boris has said he hopes to reopen (English) schools on 8th March but that it might not be until late April (after the Easter holidays).Sandpit said:Mirror doing Labour’s bidding again, with no evidence to support the special pleading of public sector Unions.
There’s two issues with schools. One is staff absence due to exposure or catching the virus itself, the other is asymptomatic children passing it between families.
Vaccinating teachers solves neither issue, as we are telling vaccinated people to still isolate if they have contact with the virus, and even if they all have the first jab tomorrow it will be May before they’re all fully immune.
Not to mention there’s still millions of vulnerable and elderly parents and grandparents out there unvaccinated. They are next month’s covid deaths.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-51643556
It is not the Mirror doing Labour's bidding so much as Tories falling into line behind Boris. How sure can they be the government will not reverse ferret and prioritise teachers before mid-April?0 -
Good morning, everyone.
Unless you're Taiwanese, in which case Beijing wants you to kowtow or war if you won't:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-558510520 -
Yes, it’s a nice problem to have, but does require a bit of thinking.MattW said:I think what we do when we are into a prospect of a serious surplus of availability in UK vaccines is an interesting one.
My suggestion would be as some others have been discussing - use it where it can make a big difference. I would love to be able to horse trade for eg Market Equivalence, but I do not think that can be justified.
My suggested priorities would be towards countries with links, developing countries esp Commonwealth, smaller countries where a big difference can be made, to mitigate impact of any EU export-intervention, and perhaps hotspots.
It's a devil of a thing to order, though - needs clear principles as we have for vaccine priority, and a small amount of pragmatism.
Perhaps Overseas Territories, ROI / Portugal, small Commonwealth countries and developing. Malta and Cyprus?
There will be some places completely set up but simply short of vaccine supply, to others where they they don’t even have enough nurses and they need a whole team of people travelling with the vaccines.
Your list sounds about right. Overseas territories and RoI for the obvious reasons, then look to smaller nations and virus hotspots, where the intervention can make the biggest difference.
Not just vaccines either, we have learned so much about care for the infected over the past year, sending medical expertise and devices such as the Mercedes-F1 CPAP machines can also make a huge difference to developing nations.0 -
And another one. Target under 100 now looking possible for Pakistan.Sandpit said:
Three wickets remaining. Pakistan should be favourites from here, unless the Saffas can run up another hundred for those last three.Mysticrose said:p.s. Another great 'winter' test match building to a thrilling climax, this time Pakistan vs S Africa.
The Proteas are 75 runs ahead in their final innings with 4 wickets remaining.
(Not that I ever bet on matches involving Pakistan)0 -
But vaccinating teachers as a priority group doesn’t get the schools open any faster. What gets the schools open is many fewer cases in the community and vaccinating the vulnerable.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Then what are we waiting for? Boris has said he hopes to reopen (English) schools on 8th March but that it might not be until late April (after the Easter holidays).Sandpit said:Mirror doing Labour’s bidding again, with no evidence to support the special pleading of public sector Unions.
There’s two issues with schools. One is staff absence due to exposure or catching the virus itself, the other is asymptomatic children passing it between families.
Vaccinating teachers solves neither issue, as we are telling vaccinated people to still isolate if they have contact with the virus, and even if they all have the first jab tomorrow it will be May before they’re all fully immune.
Not to mention there’s still millions of vulnerable and elderly parents and grandparents out there unvaccinated. They are next month’s covid deaths.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-51643556
It is not the Mirror doing Labour's bidding so much as Tories falling into line behind Boris. How sure can they be the government will not reverse ferret and prioritise teachers before mid-April?3 -
8 down. Maybe 'thrilling' was the word to use for the previous days when it ebbed and flowed. Pakistan looking good for this one. Perhaps it's karma for their friendly comments about India's win over the AussiesSandpit said:
Three wickets remaining. Pakistan should be favourites from here, unless the Saffas can run up another hundred for those last three.Mysticrose said:p.s. Another great 'winter' test match building to a thrilling climax, this time Pakistan vs S Africa.
The Proteas are 75 runs ahead in their final innings with 4 wickets remaining.
(Not that I ever bet on matches involving Pakistan)
. 2 -
It seems like only yesterday that the government policy was that only the over 60s would ever get vaccinated.
It now looks like we will soon have more vaccines than we know what to do with.
It's time to stop this moralising shit, and ask what works best for the UK? Which countries have not secured enough jabs, who'll be willing to pay?
With the pb collective obsession about the EU, we've missed the fact that the Canadians and the Swiss and the Norwegians (three of the richest countries on earth) are lagging in the vaccine stakes, and have lots of money.
Yes, we could send vaccines to Africa.
But the British government is responsible to its citizens, to its taxpayers. Where do we get bang for the buck? Who has something we want? Where can we leverage this?
It's time to be selfish. And it's time to maximise the value of those extra jabs.3 -
Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves. We are still some distance from having the luxury of being able to distribute largesse.MattW said:I think what we do when we are into a prospect of a serious surplus of availability in UK vaccines is an interesting one.
My suggestion would be as some others have been discussing - use it where it can make a big difference. I would love to be able to horse trade for eg Market Equivalence, but I do not think that can be justified.
My suggested priorities would be towards countries with links, developing countries esp Commonwealth, smaller countries where a big difference can be made, to mitigate impact of any EU export-intervention, and perhaps hotspots.
It's a devil of a thing to order, though - needs clear principles as we have for vaccine priority, and a small amount of pragmatism.
Perhaps Overseas Territories, ROI / Portugal, small Commonwealth countries and developing. Malta and Cyprus?
HOWEVER - our international networks do give us excuses for picking and choosing whom to help, because clearly even if Britain ends up with a substantial vaccine surplus we can't cover the whole world. Yes, Ireland is an obvious first target, and getting together with India to try to help as much as possible of the Commonwealth would provide a convenient excuse to throw a few planeloads at Malta and Cyprus. As far as the British Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories are concerned, the Government has already confirmed that it will be sending them all vaccines, as you would expect - and, in fact, a quick search returns a recent House of Commons briefing paper which reveals that the shipping of vaccines to some of the territories, including Gibraltar and St Helena, has already started.
Above all, it should be given to friends with no strings attached. As you say, trying to use it as leverage over the EU (or anyone else) isn't justified.2 -
Bad news overnight for the ‘influencer’ community.
Direct flights from UAE to UK suspended, after South African variant Covid spotted coming to UK from or through Middle East.
https://www.thenationalnews.com/uae/uae-uk-travel-ban-all-your-questions-answered-1.11558452 -
9 down less than 100 ahead game over bar a miracle.Mysticrose said:
8 down. Maybe 'thrilling' was the word to use for the previous days when it ebbed and flowed. Pakistan looking good for this one. Perhaps it's karma for their friendly comments about India's win over the AussiesSandpit said:
Three wickets remaining. Pakistan should be favourites from here, unless the Saffas can run up another hundred for those last three.Mysticrose said:p.s. Another great 'winter' test match building to a thrilling climax, this time Pakistan vs S Africa.
The Proteas are 75 runs ahead in their final innings with 4 wickets remaining.
(Not that I ever bet on matches involving Pakistan) .0 -
Yes, if infection rates drop then that can form a virtuous circle: less infection; less chance of being infected. That does not really address the question of teachers.Sandpit said:
But vaccinating teachers as a priority group doesn’t get the schools open any faster. What gets the schools open is many fewer cases in the community and vaccinating the vulnerable.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Then what are we waiting for? Boris has said he hopes to reopen (English) schools on 8th March but that it might not be until late April (after the Easter holidays).Sandpit said:Mirror doing Labour’s bidding again, with no evidence to support the special pleading of public sector Unions.
There’s two issues with schools. One is staff absence due to exposure or catching the virus itself, the other is asymptomatic children passing it between families.
Vaccinating teachers solves neither issue, as we are telling vaccinated people to still isolate if they have contact with the virus, and even if they all have the first jab tomorrow it will be May before they’re all fully immune.
Not to mention there’s still millions of vulnerable and elderly parents and grandparents out there unvaccinated. They are next month’s covid deaths.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-51643556
It is not the Mirror doing Labour's bidding so much as Tories falling into line behind Boris. How sure can they be the government will not reverse ferret and prioritise teachers before mid-April?0 -
Doesn't look good for the Saffirs, does it? Mind, I agree about never taking Pakistan for granted.squareroot2 said:
9 down less than 100 ahead game over bar a miracle.Mysticrose said:
8 down. Maybe 'thrilling' was the word to use for the previous days when it ebbed and flowed. Pakistan looking good for this one. Perhaps it's karma for their friendly comments about India's win over the AussiesSandpit said:
Three wickets remaining. Pakistan should be favourites from here, unless the Saffas can run up another hundred for those last three.Mysticrose said:p.s. Another great 'winter' test match building to a thrilling climax, this time Pakistan vs S Africa.
The Proteas are 75 runs ahead in their final innings with 4 wickets remaining.
(Not that I ever bet on matches involving Pakistan) .0 -
You know who is vaccinating teachers along with 55-59-year-olds? Israel. It is not out of the question our government (or four governments) will follow.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Then what are we waiting for? Boris has said he hopes to reopen (English) schools on 8th March but that it might not be until late April (after the Easter holidays).Sandpit said:Mirror doing Labour’s bidding again, with no evidence to support the special pleading of public sector Unions.
There’s two issues with schools. One is staff absence due to exposure or catching the virus itself, the other is asymptomatic children passing it between families.
Vaccinating teachers solves neither issue, as we are telling vaccinated people to still isolate if they have contact with the virus, and even if they all have the first jab tomorrow it will be May before they’re all fully immune.
Not to mention there’s still millions of vulnerable and elderly parents and grandparents out there unvaccinated. They are next month’s covid deaths.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-51643556
It is not the Mirror doing Labour's bidding so much as Tories falling into line behind Boris. How sure can they be the government will not reverse ferret and prioritise teachers before mid-April?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israelis-over-55-teachers-to-begin-receiving-covid-vaccines-starting-tuesday-1.94408770 -
If a bookie somewhere wants them all out for 50, they’ll be all out for 50.OldKingCole said:
Doesn't look good for the Saffirs, does it? Mind, I agree about never taking Pakistan for granted.squareroot2 said:
9 down less than 100 ahead game over bar a miracle.Mysticrose said:
8 down. Maybe 'thrilling' was the word to use for the previous days when it ebbed and flowed. Pakistan looking good for this one. Perhaps it's karma for their friendly comments about India's win over the AussiesSandpit said:
Three wickets remaining. Pakistan should be favourites from here, unless the Saffas can run up another hundred for those last three.Mysticrose said:p.s. Another great 'winter' test match building to a thrilling climax, this time Pakistan vs S Africa.
The Proteas are 75 runs ahead in their final innings with 4 wickets remaining.
(Not that I ever bet on matches involving Pakistan) .0 -
The India point is a good one, though I think their schedule is longer than in the UK; the capacity of the largest plant is to work up to 100 million / month, which would be 2+ years for doses for their own population.Black_Rook said:
Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves. We are still some distance from having the luxury of being able to distribute largesse.MattW said:I think what we do when we are into a prospect of a serious surplus of availability in UK vaccines is an interesting one.
My suggestion would be as some others have been discussing - use it where it can make a big difference. I would love to be able to horse trade for eg Market Equivalence, but I do not think that can be justified.
My suggested priorities would be towards countries with links, developing countries esp Commonwealth, smaller countries where a big difference can be made, to mitigate impact of any EU export-intervention, and perhaps hotspots.
It's a devil of a thing to order, though - needs clear principles as we have for vaccine priority, and a small amount of pragmatism.
Perhaps Overseas Territories, ROI / Portugal, small Commonwealth countries and developing. Malta and Cyprus?
HOWEVER - our international networks do give us excuses for picking and choosing whom to help, because clearly even if Britain ends up with a substantial vaccine surplus we can't cover the whole world. Yes, Ireland is an obvious first target, and getting together with India to try to help as much as possible of the Commonwealth would provide a convenient excuse to throw a few planeloads at Malta and Cyprus. As far as the British Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories are concerned, the Government has already confirmed that it will be sending them all vaccines, as you would expect - and, in fact, a quick search returns a recent House of Commons briefing paper which reveals that the shipping of vaccines to some of the territories, including Gibraltar and St Helena, has already started.
Above all, it should be given to friends with no strings attached. As you say, trying to use it as leverage over the EU (or anyone else) isn't justified.
0 -
To be fair, you make a reasonable point about the wealthy countries that are also struggling; however, Canada, Switzerland and Norway are all playing nice with us and two of the three are formal allies. I think it's perfectly reasonable, if we have plenty of jabs to spare, to expect countries that wealthy to pay cost price for them, but really do we want to be haggling with friendly powers, or for that matter trying to extract additional funds from them by getting them to pay a fortune? The money raised would be a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things, and it really wouldn't be a good look to buy the doses up (especially off AZN, whom as we all know are selling on a not for profit basis) and then price gouge our friends when we resell them.rcs1000 said:It seems like only yesterday that the government policy was that only the over 60s would ever get vaccinated.
It now looks like we will soon have more vaccines than we know what to do with.
It's time to stop this moralising shit, and ask what works best for the UK? Which countries have not secured enough jabs, who'll be willing to pay?
With the pb collective obsession about the EU, we've missed the fact that the Canadians and the Swiss and the Norwegians (three of the richest countries on earth) are lagging in the vaccine stakes, and have lots of money.
Yes, we could send vaccines to Africa.
But the British government is responsible to its citizens, to its taxpayers. Where do we get bang for the buck? Who has something we want? Where can we leverage this?
It's time to be selfish. And it's time to maximise the value of those extra jabs.
Besides, the stroppier the EU gets with us, the more we need the goodwill of these people.2 -
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣Sandpit said:
If a bookie somewhere wants them all out for 50, they’ll be all out for 50.OldKingCole said:
Doesn't look good for the Saffirs, does it? Mind, I agree about never taking Pakistan for granted.squareroot2 said:
9 down less than 100 ahead game over bar a miracle.Mysticrose said:
8 down. Maybe 'thrilling' was the word to use for the previous days when it ebbed and flowed. Pakistan looking good for this one. Perhaps it's karma for their friendly comments about India's win over the AussiesSandpit said:
Three wickets remaining. Pakistan should be favourites from here, unless the Saffas can run up another hundred for those last three.Mysticrose said:p.s. Another great 'winter' test match building to a thrilling climax, this time Pakistan vs S Africa.
The Proteas are 75 runs ahead in their final innings with 4 wickets remaining.
(Not that I ever bet on matches involving Pakistan) .0 -
Cost?Black_Rook said:
To be fair, you make a reasonable point about the wealthy countries that are also struggling; however, Canada, Switzerland and Norway are all playing nice with us and two of the three are formal allies. I think it's perfectly reasonable, if we have plenty of jabs to spare, to expect countries that wealthy to pay cost price for them, but really do we want to be haggling with friendly powers, or for that matter trying to extract additional funds from them by getting them to pay a fortune? The money raised would be a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things, and it really wouldn't be a good look to buy the doses up (especially off AZN, whom as we all know are selling on a not for profit basis) and then price gouge our friends when we resell them.rcs1000 said:It seems like only yesterday that the government policy was that only the over 60s would ever get vaccinated.
It now looks like we will soon have more vaccines than we know what to do with.
It's time to stop this moralising shit, and ask what works best for the UK? Which countries have not secured enough jabs, who'll be willing to pay?
With the pb collective obsession about the EU, we've missed the fact that the Canadians and the Swiss and the Norwegians (three of the richest countries on earth) are lagging in the vaccine stakes, and have lots of money.
Yes, we could send vaccines to Africa.
But the British government is responsible to its citizens, to its taxpayers. Where do we get bang for the buck? Who has something we want? Where can we leverage this?
It's time to be selfish. And it's time to maximise the value of those extra jabs.
Besides, the stroppier the EU gets with us, the more we need the goodwill of these people.
We can be generous, sure. But the cost ship sailed months ago. We put the cash down. We took the gamble.
Why should the Swiss or the Canadians be able to pay "cost". If they wanted to skip the queue with AZN, do you think they'd be paying cost?0 -
Does anyone know the detail on Norway.Black_Rook said:
To be fair, you make a reasonable point about the wealthy countries that are also struggling; however, Canada, Switzerland and Norway are all playing nice with us and two of the three are formal allies. I think it's perfectly reasonable, if we have plenty of jabs to spare, to expect countries that wealthy to pay cost price for them, but really do we want to be haggling with friendly powers, or for that matter trying to extract additional funds from them by getting them to pay a fortune? The money raised would be a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things, and it really wouldn't be a good look to buy the doses up (especially off AZN, whom as we all know are selling on a not for profit basis) and then price gouge our friends when we resell them.rcs1000 said:It seems like only yesterday that the government policy was that only the over 60s would ever get vaccinated.
It now looks like we will soon have more vaccines than we know what to do with.
It's time to stop this moralising shit, and ask what works best for the UK? Which countries have not secured enough jabs, who'll be willing to pay?
With the pb collective obsession about the EU, we've missed the fact that the Canadians and the Swiss and the Norwegians (three of the richest countries on earth) are lagging in the vaccine stakes, and have lots of money.
Yes, we could send vaccines to Africa.
But the British government is responsible to its citizens, to its taxpayers. Where do we get bang for the buck? Who has something we want? Where can we leverage this?
It's time to be selfish. And it's time to maximise the value of those extra jabs.
Besides, the stroppier the EU gets with us, the more we need the goodwill of these people.
I thought they were pick-a-back on Sweden from EU supplies, Sweden having ordered more. Not sure how that locks in with the firm "per pop" distribution.
Aside: Novavax is another one where EU were still in "Exploratory Talks" in December. UK signed contract in August.
I wonder how rapidly MHRA will be able to approve it.1 -
To be fair, given the general attitude of our Government towards the EU, one can understand a bit of 'stroppiness'. However generosity in such circumstances is rarely a bad idea.Black_Rook said:
To be fair, you make a reasonable point about the wealthy countries that are also struggling; however, Canada, Switzerland and Norway are all playing nice with us and two of the three are formal allies. I think it's perfectly reasonable, if we have plenty of jabs to spare, to expect countries that wealthy to pay cost price for them, but really do we want to be haggling with friendly powers, or for that matter trying to extract additional funds from them by getting them to pay a fortune? The money raised would be a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things, and it really wouldn't be a good look to buy the doses up (especially off AZN, whom as we all know are selling on a not for profit basis) and then price gouge our friends when we resell them.rcs1000 said:It seems like only yesterday that the government policy was that only the over 60s would ever get vaccinated.
It now looks like we will soon have more vaccines than we know what to do with.
It's time to stop this moralising shit, and ask what works best for the UK? Which countries have not secured enough jabs, who'll be willing to pay?
With the pb collective obsession about the EU, we've missed the fact that the Canadians and the Swiss and the Norwegians (three of the richest countries on earth) are lagging in the vaccine stakes, and have lots of money.
Yes, we could send vaccines to Africa.
But the British government is responsible to its citizens, to its taxpayers. Where do we get bang for the buck? Who has something we want? Where can we leverage this?
It's time to be selfish. And it's time to maximise the value of those extra jabs.
Besides, the stroppier the EU gets with us, the more we need the goodwill of these people.0 -
You need to do both in my opinion. Tbh vaxxing secondary school kids probably would be a good idea too - perhaps even ahead of 25-40.Sandpit said:
But vaccinating teachers as a priority group doesn’t get the schools open any faster. What gets the schools open is many fewer cases in the community and vaccinating the vulnerable.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Then what are we waiting for? Boris has said he hopes to reopen (English) schools on 8th March but that it might not be until late April (after the Easter holidays).Sandpit said:Mirror doing Labour’s bidding again, with no evidence to support the special pleading of public sector Unions.
There’s two issues with schools. One is staff absence due to exposure or catching the virus itself, the other is asymptomatic children passing it between families.
Vaccinating teachers solves neither issue, as we are telling vaccinated people to still isolate if they have contact with the virus, and even if they all have the first jab tomorrow it will be May before they’re all fully immune.
Not to mention there’s still millions of vulnerable and elderly parents and grandparents out there unvaccinated. They are next month’s covid deaths.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-51643556
It is not the Mirror doing Labour's bidding so much as Tories falling into line behind Boris. How sure can they be the government will not reverse ferret and prioritise teachers before mid-April?1 -
Aren’t we better off trying to hit South Africa, as their mad new strain threatens to go global?rcs1000 said:
Cost?Black_Rook said:
To be fair, you make a reasonable point about the wealthy countries that are also struggling; however, Canada, Switzerland and Norway are all playing nice with us and two of the three are formal allies. I think it's perfectly reasonable, if we have plenty of jabs to spare, to expect countries that wealthy to pay cost price for them, but really do we want to be haggling with friendly powers, or for that matter trying to extract additional funds from them by getting them to pay a fortune? The money raised would be a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things, and it really wouldn't be a good look to buy the doses up (especially off AZN, whom as we all know are selling on a not for profit basis) and then price gouge our friends when we resell them.rcs1000 said:It seems like only yesterday that the government policy was that only the over 60s would ever get vaccinated.
It now looks like we will soon have more vaccines than we know what to do with.
It's time to stop this moralising shit, and ask what works best for the UK? Which countries have not secured enough jabs, who'll be willing to pay?
With the pb collective obsession about the EU, we've missed the fact that the Canadians and the Swiss and the Norwegians (three of the richest countries on earth) are lagging in the vaccine stakes, and have lots of money.
Yes, we could send vaccines to Africa.
But the British government is responsible to its citizens, to its taxpayers. Where do we get bang for the buck? Who has something we want? Where can we leverage this?
It's time to be selfish. And it's time to maximise the value of those extra jabs.
Besides, the stroppier the EU gets with us, the more we need the goodwill of these people.
We can be generous, sure. But the cost ship sailed months ago. We put the cash down. We took the gamble.
Why should the Swiss or the Canadians be able to pay "cost". If they wanted to skip the queue with AZN, do you think they'd be paying cost?
Let the USA and Moderna make profits from the rich nations who didn’t invest enough at the start, and let UKAid look after those countries who never had the chance to spend billions on vaccines in the first place #softpower.2 -
0
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Trading current jab capacity for future Saffer/mutant boosters might be an idea too.rcs1000 said:It seems like only yesterday that the government policy was that only the over 60s would ever get vaccinated.
It now looks like we will soon have more vaccines than we know what to do with.
It's time to stop this moralising shit, and ask what works best for the UK? Which countries have not secured enough jabs, who'll be willing to pay?
With the pb collective obsession about the EU, we've missed the fact that the Canadians and the Swiss and the Norwegians (three of the richest countries on earth) are lagging in the vaccine stakes, and have lots of money.
Yes, we could send vaccines to Africa.
But the British government is responsible to its citizens, to its taxpayers. Where do we get bang for the buck? Who has something we want? Where can we leverage this?
It's time to be selfish. And it's time to maximise the value of those extra jabs.1 -
Prioritising men ahead of women is also going to be something that doesn't happen but could be justified with the 40-49 age group in particular0
-
Israel's vax plan is near perfect I think. They're onto people in their 40s now, 55-59 may well be the right age group to comix teachers in withDecrepiterJohnL said:
You know who is vaccinating teachers along with 55-59-year-olds? Israel. It is not out of the question our government (or four governments) will follow.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Then what are we waiting for? Boris has said he hopes to reopen (English) schools on 8th March but that it might not be until late April (after the Easter holidays).Sandpit said:Mirror doing Labour’s bidding again, with no evidence to support the special pleading of public sector Unions.
There’s two issues with schools. One is staff absence due to exposure or catching the virus itself, the other is asymptomatic children passing it between families.
Vaccinating teachers solves neither issue, as we are telling vaccinated people to still isolate if they have contact with the virus, and even if they all have the first jab tomorrow it will be May before they’re all fully immune.
Not to mention there’s still millions of vulnerable and elderly parents and grandparents out there unvaccinated. They are next month’s covid deaths.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-51643556
It is not the Mirror doing Labour's bidding so much as Tories falling into line behind Boris. How sure can they be the government will not reverse ferret and prioritise teachers before mid-April?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israelis-over-55-teachers-to-begin-receiving-covid-vaccines-starting-tuesday-1.94408770 -
Still think we should offer up now a million jabs - although maybe half a million of the one jab Johnson and Johnson would be easier - to Olympic athletes and officials around the globe, so they can go ahead.2
-
Why? Why would they be a priority over people who would die as a result of your policy?MarqueeMark said:Still think we should offer up now a million jabs - although maybe half a million of the one jab Johnson and Johnson would be easier - to Olympic athletes and officials around the globe, so they can go ahead.
1 -
Erm.Pulpstar said:
Israel's vax plan is near perfect I think.DecrepiterJohnL said:
You know who is vaccinating teachers along with 55-59-year-olds? Israel. It is not out of the question our government (or four governments) will follow.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Then what are we waiting for? Boris has said he hopes to reopen (English) schools on 8th March but that it might not be until late April (after the Easter holidays).Sandpit said:Mirror doing Labour’s bidding again, with no evidence to support the special pleading of public sector Unions.
There’s two issues with schools. One is staff absence due to exposure or catching the virus itself, the other is asymptomatic children passing it between families.
Vaccinating teachers solves neither issue, as we are telling vaccinated people to still isolate if they have contact with the virus, and even if they all have the first jab tomorrow it will be May before they’re all fully immune.
Not to mention there’s still millions of vulnerable and elderly parents and grandparents out there unvaccinated. They are next month’s covid deaths.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-51643556
It is not the Mirror doing Labour's bidding so much as Tories falling into line behind Boris. How sure can they be the government will not reverse ferret and prioritise teachers before mid-April?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israelis-over-55-teachers-to-begin-receiving-covid-vaccines-starting-tuesday-1.9440877
Serious issues about data protection and racial segregation:
https://theconversation.com/israels-vaccine-rollout-has-been-fast-so-why-is-it-controversial-and-what-can-other-countries-learn-153687
0 -
When you have cases like this as well, where do you draw the line?
Covid: Data shows outbreaks in England's offices in lockdown
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55843506
The truth is this disease makes us all vulnerable to infection unless we are vaccinated. Some professions may be more vulnerable than others, but the virus doesn’t magically stop at say, bankers.
Which is why we need to do two things:
1) Vaccinate everyone as fast as humanly possible to render it moot who gets jabbed first - which we’re doing - and;
2) Come up with an intelligent plan for managing schools until that happy moment is achieved. Which will certainly not happen as everyone at the DfE is like a drunk version of Richard Burgon.
So we will probably have lockdown, unlock, catastrophe, lockdown, unlock one more time.
Unless they delay school reopening until the vaccination programme has got to everyone who might be vulnerable, especially parents of teenage children with underlying health conditions.2 -
Because by the time we need to administer these jabs, we will be awash with vaccine. We can get value from it now before it becomes a devalued currency. Because the Olympics going ahead thanks to the genorsity of the UK would be a superb way to advance soft power. Literally, every country would benefit.Mysticrose said:
Why? Why would they be a priority over people who would die as a result of your policy?MarqueeMark said:Still think we should offer up now a million jabs - although maybe half a million of the one jab Johnson and Johnson would be easier - to Olympic athletes and officials around the globe, so they can go ahead.
Knowing the Olympics will deffo go ahead would lift the world's spirits. And be a big win with the Japanese.
And boy, would it annoy Brussels that they can't offer this.
What's not to love?0 -
As a related issue to the discussion below, the EU has rarely, if ever, been good for Africa. It's a protectionist bloc which has always been self-serving, especially if you were on the Brussels gravy train.
Unfortunately Brexit didn't arise ex nihilo. The EU provided it with plenty of ammunition. That has been all-too-evident this past fortnight.2 -
Oh, plus having the world's finest athletes in every country being vaccinated would be a fantastic advert to Just. Get. Jabbed.
Fuck you, antivaxers.1 -
The EU still haven't approved the vaccine that they are so grumpy about. They are months behind the UK on both signing the contract with AZ and on getting approval.CarlottaVance said:
This smoke and mirrors is an attempt to cover up their own woeful inadequacies.4 -
0
-
Well, somebody is lying.CarlottaVance said:
Either the President of the Commission, a body which of course always acts with impeccable integrity and would never, say, impose an illegal ban on British beef exports to deflect attention from a vast outbreak of BSE in France, or the CEO of AstraZeneca, a pharmaceutical company who as we know are always models of charity and honesty.
Whichever one of them is lying, however, the losers are the citizens of the EU who have found their health and economic resilience turned into a political football over greater EU integration.
Which is really quite astonishingly unedifying.6 -
The first objective of vaccination is to stop the NHS falling over. I think we have done that but, like Waterloo, it was a damn near run thing and not completely over even now. To achieve this objective it was important to prioritise those who were most likely to end up in hospital if they caught the virus which was those in the first 4 categories. I've no problem with that.
Once the pressure on the NHS has eased for this reason it is less obvious to me why age (and I am 59) continues to be the determining factor. If there are certain groups that are more at risk of either infection or infecting others providing essential public services I can see the argument for them being next. Care staff will generally have been dealt with in the first wave but any remaining pockets there, such as dentists, chiropractors etc would be a good example but so would delivery drivers, shop workers, any front facing staff who have to deal with large volumes of public.
If it was going to facilitate the opening of schools then teachers would definitely be in this category. The problem with schools, however, is that at least with this new variant and quite possibly with the old one, the problem is not just the protection of teachers but the spreading of the virus through the kids to their families. Given the virulence of the new variants I really struggle to see the schools open until we are much, much further on with vaccination and the incidence of the disease in the community is enormously reduced. If the schools are not going to be open the argument for preference for teachers rather falls apart.
5 -
Sport is a really difficult one, there’s some discussion ongoing on F1 forums about it.MarqueeMark said:Still think we should offer up now a million jabs - although maybe half a million of the one jab Johnson and Johnson would be easier - to Olympic athletes and officials around the globe, so they can go ahead.
I think the key is the timing, and whether the vulnerable are all done first.
Taking jabs away from 60s and 70s for young sportspeople looks really bad. Using plenty of surplus capacity when almost everyone’s been vaccinated already though, that looks great.
F1 would look awesome if they turned up at each venue with 10,000 vaccines for the local population, if it means they can take the first thousand of the total for all the people they’ve got working in the paddock.
The issue of the Olympics is much bigger. The athletes are all around the world training at the moment, the vast majority will have to compete in some sort of national competition for the right to be at the Games in the first place, and the list of attendees won’t be known until a few weeks before the event. There’s also the problem of where to do the vaccinating. Vaccinating in Japan all the local workers appears impossible due to Japanese rules on approvals, which are still potentially months away as local trials continue.0 -
Now imagine homeschooling your children *and* trying to teach other people’s children at the same time.Theuniondivvie said:Glass eyes moistening across the nation.
https://twitter.com/bbcnews/status/1355004741768638465?s=21
One of my colleagues went white last term at the mere thought of a second lockdown. His children are aged five and seven.0 -
Israel is also vaccinating 16-18 year olds to assist them to prepare for their examinations.DecrepiterJohnL said:
You know who is vaccinating teachers along with 55-59-year-olds? Israel. It is not out of the question our government (or four governments) will follow.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Then what are we waiting for? Boris has said he hopes to reopen (English) schools on 8th March but that it might not be until late April (after the Easter holidays).Sandpit said:Mirror doing Labour’s bidding again, with no evidence to support the special pleading of public sector Unions.
There’s two issues with schools. One is staff absence due to exposure or catching the virus itself, the other is asymptomatic children passing it between families.
Vaccinating teachers solves neither issue, as we are telling vaccinated people to still isolate if they have contact with the virus, and even if they all have the first jab tomorrow it will be May before they’re all fully immune.
Not to mention there’s still millions of vulnerable and elderly parents and grandparents out there unvaccinated. They are next month’s covid deaths.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-51643556
It is not the Mirror doing Labour's bidding so much as Tories falling into line behind Boris. How sure can they be the government will not reverse ferret and prioritise teachers before mid-April?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israelis-over-55-teachers-to-begin-receiving-covid-vaccines-starting-tuesday-1.94408771 -
Is this about microchips in the vaccine again?fox327 said:
Israel is also vaccinating 16-18 year olds to assist them to prepare for their examinations.DecrepiterJohnL said:
You know who is vaccinating teachers along with 55-59-year-olds? Israel. It is not out of the question our government (or four governments) will follow.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Then what are we waiting for? Boris has said he hopes to reopen (English) schools on 8th March but that it might not be until late April (after the Easter holidays).Sandpit said:Mirror doing Labour’s bidding again, with no evidence to support the special pleading of public sector Unions.
There’s two issues with schools. One is staff absence due to exposure or catching the virus itself, the other is asymptomatic children passing it between families.
Vaccinating teachers solves neither issue, as we are telling vaccinated people to still isolate if they have contact with the virus, and even if they all have the first jab tomorrow it will be May before they’re all fully immune.
Not to mention there’s still millions of vulnerable and elderly parents and grandparents out there unvaccinated. They are next month’s covid deaths.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-51643556
It is not the Mirror doing Labour's bidding so much as Tories falling into line behind Boris. How sure can they be the government will not reverse ferret and prioritise teachers before mid-April?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israelis-over-55-teachers-to-begin-receiving-covid-vaccines-starting-tuesday-1.9440877
0 -
Call centre work can and should absolubtely be done from home. Getting a spam call at the office (There are two people at most in OUR office) - well there were certainly more than two in the call centre office.ydoethur said:When you have cases like this as well, where do you draw the line?
Covid: Data shows outbreaks in England's offices in lockdown
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55843506
The truth is this disease makes us all vulnerable to infection unless we are vaccinated. Some professions may be more vulnerable than others, but the virus doesn’t magically stop at say, bankers.
Which is why we need to do two things:
1) Vaccinate everyone as fast as humanly possible to render it moot who gets jabbed first - which we’re doing - and;
2) Come up with an intelligent plan for managing schools until that happy moment is achieved. Which will certainly not happen as everyone at the DfE is like a drunk version of Richard Burgon.
So we will probably have lockdown, unlock, catastrophe, lockdown, unlock one more time.
Unless they delay school reopening until the vaccination programme has got to everyone who might be vulnerable, especially parents of teenage children with underlying health conditions.
Not only are you being sold shit, the virus is also getting spread in the bloody centre selling you crap.1 -
Wow. Just wow. They’re quadrupling down. How long before AZ simply stops the supply to the EU and says we’ll see you in court? It’s hardly as if not supplying the EU leaves them with unsold stock.CarlottaVance said:
Before the past year, do we know how many contracts for purchase of pharmaceuticals the EU has negotiated directly? In constrast to AstraZenica’s contracts department, who we know have a very expensive team of lawyers doing just that, every day.
4 -
Just waffle. 1 is true, 2 - no, but a broadly equivalent phrase does, 3 - true (who would expect no reference whatsoever to quantities? ), but qualified as per 2.ydoethur said:
Well, somebody is lying.CarlottaVance said:
Either the President of the Commission, a body which of course always acts with impeccable integrity and would never, say, impose an illegal ban on British beef exports to deflect attention from a vast outbreak of BSE in France, or the CEO of AstraZeneca, a pharmaceutical company who as we know are always models of charity and honesty.
Whichever one of them is lying, however, the losers are the citizens of the EU who have found their health and economic resilience turned into a political football over greater EU integration.
Which is really quite astonishingly unedifying.2 -
The world will not be 'awash' with vaccines. For athletes to be vaccinated and immune they would need to have finished vaccinating them no later than 6 weeks before the start of the games (21 days 1st to 2nd jab then 21 days for immunity) i.e. May. We won't even be at 5% of the global population by then with many vulnerable people awaiting their vaccines. So, no, Olympians and the officials should not have a priority.MarqueeMark said:
Because by the time we need to administer these jabs, we will be awash with vaccine. ?Mysticrose said:
Why? Why would they be a priority over people who would die as a result of your policy?MarqueeMark said:Still think we should offer up now a million jabs - although maybe half a million of the one jab Johnson and Johnson would be easier - to Olympic athletes and officials around the globe, so they can go ahead.
In general I agree with keeping spirits high but I'm not sure your enthusiasm for the Olympics over, say, soccer, NFL, baseball, cricket, rugby, darts, snooker, golf, tennis (which I accept is now a sort-of Olympic sport) would be shared by many people.
The Olympics is a spectacle and London was fantastic. But on the whole the event seems to have degenerated. The sports are often fringe or lacking professional participants and the centrepiece, athletics, is riddled with performance-enhancing drugs.
0 -
At this moment, all AZ have to do is withdraw their application for certification by the EMA and the EU are more buggered than a reluctant Turkish conscript. The behaviour of the German government would give them all the excuse they needed.Sandpit said:
Wow. Just wow. They’re quadrupling down. How long before AZ simply stops the supply to the EU and says we’ll see you in court? It’s hardly as if not supplying the EU leaves them with unsold stock.CarlottaVance said:
Before the past year, do we know how many contracts for purchase of pharmaceuticals the EU has negotiated directly? In constrast to AstraZenica’s contracts department, who we know have a very expensive team of lawyers doing just that, every day.
Although that option seems likely to be closed off later today.4 -
Surely Japan should do that?MarqueeMark said:Still think we should offer up now a million jabs - although maybe half a million of the one jab Johnson and Johnson would be easier - to Olympic athletes and officials around the globe, so they can go ahead.
0 -
My kids are older now but my daughter is working from home in our conservatory and my son is attending school every day remotely from his bedroom. I am trying to work from home in the dining room and this is getting seriously close to a game of Cluedo. Where is the murder going to take place and who is going to be the perpetrator? My wife must surely be the prime suspect. We are all driving her nuts and she is desperate to get a bit of time to her self.ydoethur said:
Now imagine homeschooling your children *and* trying to teach other people’s children at the same time.Theuniondivvie said:Glass eyes moistening across the nation.
https://twitter.com/bbcnews/status/1355004741768638465?s=21
One of my colleagues went white last term at the mere thought of a second lockdown. His children are aged five and seven.
I have stayed away from my work entirely this month. Given the virulence of the new variant it would be crazy to go to Edinburgh and mix with friends and work colleagues but this is really tough. My productivity is very low and my mood is not much better. I have never really suffered from depression in my life, even in really difficult times, but I am struggling right now. I want my life back, as do 67m others of course.3 -
All good points. Maybe just for this year the national selection of attendees is done at local level Vaccinating could be done in country with whichever jab is easiest to transport (the J&J jab-and-go would probably be easiest). If we are aiming for an August Olympics still, then you jab in June. We can afford half a million J&J by then.Sandpit said:
Sport is a really difficult one, there’s some discussion ongoing on F1 forums about it.MarqueeMark said:Still think we should offer up now a million jabs - although maybe half a million of the one jab Johnson and Johnson would be easier - to Olympic athletes and officials around the globe, so they can go ahead.
I think the key is the timing, and whether the vulnerable are all done first.
Taking jabs away from 60s and 70s for young sportspeople looks really bad. Using plenty of surplus capacity when almost everyone’s been vaccinated already though, that looks great.
F1 would look awesome if they turned up at each venue with 10,000 vaccines for the local population, if it means they can take the first thousand of the total for all the people they’ve got working in the paddock.
The issue of the Olympics is much bigger. The athletes are all around the world training at the moment, the vast majority will have to compete in some sort of national competition for the right to be at the Games in the first place, and the list of attendees won’t be known until a few weeks before the event. There’s also the problem of where to do the vaccinating. Vaccinating in Japan all the local workers appears impossible due to Japanese rules on approvals, which are still potentially months away as local trials continue.
By June, the Japanese will have to have got themselves commfortable with some jab. That is an issue for their timetable. Some pressure will be brought to bear to get those rules meshed in place with an approved vaccine.
Then maybe the IOC awards the UK the 2032 games, as a thank you....(to whicever are still constituent countries in the UK by then....)
1 -
There are no microchips in the vaccines, as far as I know.ydoethur said:
Is this about microchips in the vaccine again?fox327 said:
Israel is also vaccinating 16-18 year olds to assist them to prepare for their examinations.DecrepiterJohnL said:
You know who is vaccinating teachers along with 55-59-year-olds? Israel. It is not out of the question our government (or four governments) will follow.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Then what are we waiting for? Boris has said he hopes to reopen (English) schools on 8th March but that it might not be until late April (after the Easter holidays).Sandpit said:Mirror doing Labour’s bidding again, with no evidence to support the special pleading of public sector Unions.
There’s two issues with schools. One is staff absence due to exposure or catching the virus itself, the other is asymptomatic children passing it between families.
Vaccinating teachers solves neither issue, as we are telling vaccinated people to still isolate if they have contact with the virus, and even if they all have the first jab tomorrow it will be May before they’re all fully immune.
Not to mention there’s still millions of vulnerable and elderly parents and grandparents out there unvaccinated. They are next month’s covid deaths.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-51643556
It is not the Mirror doing Labour's bidding so much as Tories falling into line behind Boris. How sure can they be the government will not reverse ferret and prioritise teachers before mid-April?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israelis-over-55-teachers-to-begin-receiving-covid-vaccines-starting-tuesday-1.94408770 -
The thing is that it won't be AZN as no lawyer would let a contract out with binding delivery dates on a new product where delivery is being outsourced.ydoethur said:
Well, somebody is lying.CarlottaVance said:
Either the President of the Commission, a body which of course always acts with impeccable integrity and would never, say, impose an illegal ban on British beef exports to deflect attention from a vast outbreak of BSE in France, or the CEO of AstraZeneca, a pharmaceutical company who as we know are always models of charity and honesty.
Whichever one of them is lying, however, the losers are the citizens of the EU who have found their health and economic resilience turned into a political football over greater EU integration.
Which is really quite astonishingly unedifying.
And even if it is, AZN can't magic up something that doesn't exist.
The EU is doing itself zero favours here having f***ed up the most important project in decades.6 -
Be nimble!Philip_Thompson said:
Surely Japan should do that?MarqueeMark said:Still think we should offer up now a million jabs - although maybe half a million of the one jab Johnson and Johnson would be easier - to Olympic athletes and officials around the globe, so they can go ahead.
1 -
People in all those groups who are clinically more vulnerable are already prioritised under the Clinically Vulnerable tiers (commenting from the England Scheme - not sure what the minor differences are).DavidL said:The first objective of vaccination is to stop the NHS falling over. I think we have done that but, like Waterloo, it was a damn near run thing and not completely over even now. To achieve this objective it was important to prioritise those who were most likely to end up in hospital if they caught the virus which was those in the first 4 categories. I've no problem with that.
Once the pressure on the NHS has eased for this reason it is less obvious to me why age (and I am 59) continues to be the determining factor. If there are certain groups that are more at risk of either infection or infecting others providing essential public services I can see the argument for them being next. Care staff will generally have been dealt with in the first wave but any remaining pockets there, such as dentists, chiropractors etc would be a good example but so would delivery drivers, shop workers, any front facing staff who have to deal with large volumes of public.
If it was going to facilitate the opening of schools then teachers would definitely be in this category. The problem with schools, however, is that at least with this new variant and quite possibly with the old one, the problem is not just the protection of teachers but the spreading of the virus through the kids to their families. Given the virulence of the new variants I really struggle to see the schools open until we are much, much further on with vaccination and the incidence of the disease in the community is enormously reduced. If the schools are not going to be open the argument for preference for teachers rather falls apart.
On schools, in England they will be closed until March 8 under present arrangements. By then it is likely that vaccinations will be up to 23-27 million or so on current trends - so we may not be that far off the point anyway. That as near as dammit covers the 27 million in groups 1-9 before the current schools reopening date.
I expect plans to be updated before then.
0 -
The joke was, that being vaccinated helped them in examinations, so it obviously has some kind of tech in it.fox327 said:
There are no microchips in the vaccines, as far as I know.ydoethur said:
Is this about microchips in the vaccine again?fox327 said:
Israel is also vaccinating 16-18 year olds to assist them to prepare for their examinations.DecrepiterJohnL said:
You know who is vaccinating teachers along with 55-59-year-olds? Israel. It is not out of the question our government (or four governments) will follow.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Then what are we waiting for? Boris has said he hopes to reopen (English) schools on 8th March but that it might not be until late April (after the Easter holidays).Sandpit said:Mirror doing Labour’s bidding again, with no evidence to support the special pleading of public sector Unions.
There’s two issues with schools. One is staff absence due to exposure or catching the virus itself, the other is asymptomatic children passing it between families.
Vaccinating teachers solves neither issue, as we are telling vaccinated people to still isolate if they have contact with the virus, and even if they all have the first jab tomorrow it will be May before they’re all fully immune.
Not to mention there’s still millions of vulnerable and elderly parents and grandparents out there unvaccinated. They are next month’s covid deaths.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-51643556
It is not the Mirror doing Labour's bidding so much as Tories falling into line behind Boris. How sure can they be the government will not reverse ferret and prioritise teachers before mid-April?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israelis-over-55-teachers-to-begin-receiving-covid-vaccines-starting-tuesday-1.9440877
I know it was a very bad and obscure joke, but give me a break here guys. I was writing lessons half the night and up again at five this morning.2 -
For a lot of call centres the only way people will sell the crap they are trying to sell is if someone is watching over them as they sell it.Pulpstar said:
Call centre work can and should absolubtely be done from home. Getting a spam call at the office (There are two people at most in OUR office) - well there were certainly more than two in the call centre office.ydoethur said:When you have cases like this as well, where do you draw the line?
Covid: Data shows outbreaks in England's offices in lockdown
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55843506
The truth is this disease makes us all vulnerable to infection unless we are vaccinated. Some professions may be more vulnerable than others, but the virus doesn’t magically stop at say, bankers.
Which is why we need to do two things:
1) Vaccinate everyone as fast as humanly possible to render it moot who gets jabbed first - which we’re doing - and;
2) Come up with an intelligent plan for managing schools until that happy moment is achieved. Which will certainly not happen as everyone at the DfE is like a drunk version of Richard Burgon.
So we will probably have lockdown, unlock, catastrophe, lockdown, unlock one more time.
Unless they delay school reopening until the vaccination programme has got to everyone who might be vulnerable, especially parents of teenage children with underlying health conditions.
Not only are you being sold shit, the virus is also getting spread in the bloody centre selling you crap.
Customer service call centres can be done from home, but for everything I've gathered for cold calling call centres its way more profitable if everyone is in the same room.1 -
A week before Easter remains my guess.MattW said:
People in all those groups who are clinically more vulnerable are already prioritised under the Clinically Vulnerable tiers.DavidL said:The first objective of vaccination is to stop the NHS falling over. I think we have done that but, like Waterloo, it was a damn near run thing and not completely over even now. To achieve this objective it was important to prioritise those who were most likely to end up in hospital if they caught the virus which was those in the first 4 categories. I've no problem with that.
Once the pressure on the NHS has eased for this reason it is less obvious to me why age (and I am 59) continues to be the determining factor. If there are certain groups that are more at risk of either infection or infecting others providing essential public services I can see the argument for them being next. Care staff will generally have been dealt with in the first wave but any remaining pockets there, such as dentists, chiropractors etc would be a good example but so would delivery drivers, shop workers, any front facing staff who have to deal with large volumes of public.
If it was going to facilitate the opening of schools then teachers would definitely be in this category. The problem with schools, however, is that at least with this new variant and quite possibly with the old one, the problem is not just the protection of teachers but the spreading of the virus through the kids to their families. Given the virulence of the new variants I really struggle to see the schools open until we are much, much further on with vaccination and the incidence of the disease in the community is enormously reduced. If the schools are not going to be open the argument for preference for teachers rather falls apart.
On schools, in England they will be closed until March 8 under present arrangements. By then it is likely that vaccinations will be up to 23-27 million or so on current trends - so we may not be that far off the point anyway. That as near as dammit covers the 27 million in groups 1-9 before the current schools reopening date.
I expect plans to be updated before then.
After Easter, if your figures are correct we should be OK to reopen anyway.0 -
Quite surprised that abuse is being heaped (not reference to UD).Theuniondivvie said:Glass eyes moistening across the nation.
https://twitter.com/bbcnews/status/1355004741768638465?s=21
The same happened to Samantha Cameron the other day.
0 -
Pollsters and the Labour party along with several posters really need lessons in 'opportunity cost'. To put it crudely special pleading must be accompanied by identifying not just those you want bumped up but also those who must go down to make way. Even with a vaccine surplus there are only so many who can be jabbed at any one time and every one day of waiting potentially sentences someone to death.ydoethur said:When you have cases like this as well, where do you draw the line?
Covid: Data shows outbreaks in England's offices in lockdown
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55843506
The truth is this disease makes us all vulnerable to infection unless we are vaccinated. Some professions may be more vulnerable than others, but the virus doesn’t magically stop at say, bankers.
Which is why we need to do two things:
1) Vaccinate everyone as fast as humanly possible to render it moot who gets jabbed first - which we’re doing - and;
2) Come up with an intelligent plan for managing schools until that happy moment is achieved. Which will certainly not happen as everyone at the DfE is like a drunk version of Richard Burgon.
So we will probably have lockdown, unlock, catastrophe, lockdown, unlock one more time.
Unless they delay school reopening until the vaccination programme has got to everyone who might be vulnerable, especially parents of teenage children with underlying health conditions.2 -
The whole point about those facilities, which the British taxpayer paid for, is that they will assist the EU *after* they have produced enough vaccine to fulfil their contract with the UK government.CarlottaVance said:
She’s clearly under enormous pressure from somewhere. This is flailing on speed.4 -
Regarding the new Brazilian variants of COVID-19, there are a couple of recent research papers that suggest that the recent cases of reinfection are mainly related to these new variants.
"The frequency of other lineages decreased from 96.3% between March and November 2020 to 8.3% in January 2021"
https://virological.org/t/genomic-characterisation-of-an-emergent-sars-cov-2-lineage-in-manaus-preliminary-findings/586/2
"Just as Brazil surpassed 200,000 deaths from COVID-19 on January 7, news from Bahia added another layer of concern: A platform case report in a preprint detailed the first case of reinfection in that state, apparently caused by a new strain, one having the E484K mutation. This new strain is now being called P.2."
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/944748
This suggests that the spike in cases in Manaus is due to infection by the new strains of the virus, and not due to reinfection by the original strains as a result of declining immunity. Perhaps we should be placing orders for vaccines against these new Brazilian variants (not with manufacturers based in the EU).0 -
Not clear - is she denying the existence of the phrase 'best effort' or that it is in the contract? Or both?Mysticrose said:
The EU still haven't approved the vaccine that they are so grumpy about. They are months behind the UK on both signing the contract with AZ and on getting approval.CarlottaVance said:
This smoke and mirrors is an attempt to cover up their own woeful inadequacies.0 -
Good detailed commentary on this from David Allen Green:ydoethur said:
Well, somebody is lying.CarlottaVance said:
Either the President of the Commission, a body which of course always acts with impeccable integrity and would never, say, impose an illegal ban on British beef exports to deflect attention from a vast outbreak of BSE in France, or the CEO of AstraZeneca, a pharmaceutical company who as we know are always models of charity and honesty.
Whichever one of them is lying, however, the losers are the citizens of the EU who have found their health and economic resilience turned into a political football over greater EU integration.
Which is really quite astonishingly unedifying.
https://davidallengreen.com/2021/01/what-can-be-worked-out-about-the-best-efforts-clause-in-the-astrazeneca-vaccine-supply-agreement/
I don't totally agree, but he's crawled and trawled the detail as best we have it.0 -
I agree. With a new product to be scaled up fast in new facilities that I don't think the EMA has even approved for use yet (Germany did yesterday and there may be other breaking of the ranks) it is utterly inconceivable that Astra Zeneca committed themselves to a fixed delivery schedule with liability if they failed. So there is either a "best efforts" clause or an exclusion from any liability or damages which makes the contractual obligations meaningless and unenforceable. If it is the latter than van der Leyen might technically be telling the truth but very far from the whole truth.eek said:
The thing is that it won't be AZN as no lawyer would let a contract out with binding delivery dates on a new product where delivery is being outsourced.ydoethur said:
Well, somebody is lying.CarlottaVance said:
Either the President of the Commission, a body which of course always acts with impeccable integrity and would never, say, impose an illegal ban on British beef exports to deflect attention from a vast outbreak of BSE in France, or the CEO of AstraZeneca, a pharmaceutical company who as we know are always models of charity and honesty.
Whichever one of them is lying, however, the losers are the citizens of the EU who have found their health and economic resilience turned into a political football over greater EU integration.
Which is really quite astonishingly unedifying.
And even if it is, AZN can't magic up something that doesn't exist.
The EU is doing itself zero favours here having f***ed up the most important project in decades.1 -
No, I'm suggesting the J&J single jab - a June/early July roll-out works for that.Mysticrose said:
The world will not be 'awash' with vaccines. For athletes to be vaccinated and immune they would need to have finished vaccinating them no later than 6 weeks before the start of the games (21 days 1st to 2nd jab then 21 days for immunity) i.e. May. We won't even be at 5% of the global population by then with many vulnerable people awaiting their vaccines. So, no, Olympians and the officials should not have a priority.MarqueeMark said:
Because by the time we need to administer these jabs, we will be awash with vaccine. ?Mysticrose said:
Why? Why would they be a priority over people who would die as a result of your policy?MarqueeMark said:Still think we should offer up now a million jabs - although maybe half a million of the one jab Johnson and Johnson would be easier - to Olympic athletes and officials around the globe, so they can go ahead.
In general I agree with keeping spirits high but I'm not sure your enthusiasm for the Olympics over, say, soccer, NFL, baseball, cricket, rugby, darts, snooker, golf, tennis (which I accept is now a sort-of Olympic sport) would be shared by many people.
The Olympics is a spectacle and London was fantastic. But on the whole the event seems to have degenerated. The sports are often fringe or lacking professional participants and the centrepiece, athletics, is riddled with performance-enhancing drugs.
A blood test taken at the same time would do plenty to worry the cheats.
The Olympics are still THE showcase for world sport. We need to get that sport back up. It shows yes, we can beat this bug. Normality is possible. Get jabbed, and all will be well. If you cancel the Games until 2024, there will be a raft of sportsmen who will have missed the chance to compete for their country at the very highest level. They will have passed their peak by then. Them losing out is a win for the Bastard Bug that we should do all we can to prevent.1 -
It was amusing to me that after the EU's temper tantrum, AZN took time in silence then responded calmly with a very clear, very detailed interview by their CEO in an Italian newspaper - that immediately went viral around the world and laid out where the responsibility lies crystal clearly.eek said:
The thing is that it won't be AZN as no lawyer would let a contract out with binding delivery dates on a new product where delivery is being outsourced.ydoethur said:
Well, somebody is lying.CarlottaVance said:
Either the President of the Commission, a body which of course always acts with impeccable integrity and would never, say, impose an illegal ban on British beef exports to deflect attention from a vast outbreak of BSE in France, or the CEO of AstraZeneca, a pharmaceutical company who as we know are always models of charity and honesty.
Whichever one of them is lying, however, the losers are the citizens of the EU who have found their health and economic resilience turned into a political football over greater EU integration.
Which is really quite astonishingly unedifying.
And even if it is, AZN can't magic up something that doesn't exist.
The EU is doing itself zero favours here having f***ed up the most important project in decades.
Then the EU bit and said "release the contract" - and again AZN stayed quiet, waited until the next day and then said "OK contract can be released". I would bet my bottom pound that not only did AZN lawyers know what they were doing when they drafted that contract, but that in that period of radio silence AZN have had very smart, very well paid lawyers going through that contract to double-check there's nothing in there they'd missed that would sting them now.
Quite frankly the Commission are rank amateurs at what is being done right now. This is what AZN do for a living.5 -
Why don't they take the risk of unilaterally publishing the contract if they are so sure?ydoethur said:
Well, somebody is lying.CarlottaVance said:
Either the President of the Commission, a body which of course always acts with impeccable integrity and would never, say, impose an illegal ban on British beef exports to deflect attention from a vast outbreak of BSE in France, or the CEO of AstraZeneca, a pharmaceutical company who as we know are always models of charity and honesty.
Whichever one of them is lying, however, the losers are the citizens of the EU who have found their health and economic resilience turned into a political football over greater EU integration.
Which is really quite astonishingly unedifying.0 -
I think that’s harsh, Philip. Rank amateurs do it for enjoyment. This lot are just totally incompetent professionals.Philip_Thompson said:
It was amusing to me that after the EU's temper tantrum, AZN took time in silence then responded calmly with a very clear, very detailed interview by their CEO in an Italian newspaper - that immediately went viral around the world and laid out where the responsibility lies crystal clearly.eek said:
The thing is that it won't be AZN as no lawyer would let a contract out with binding delivery dates on a new product where delivery is being outsourced.ydoethur said:
Well, somebody is lying.CarlottaVance said:
Either the President of the Commission, a body which of course always acts with impeccable integrity and would never, say, impose an illegal ban on British beef exports to deflect attention from a vast outbreak of BSE in France, or the CEO of AstraZeneca, a pharmaceutical company who as we know are always models of charity and honesty.
Whichever one of them is lying, however, the losers are the citizens of the EU who have found their health and economic resilience turned into a political football over greater EU integration.
Which is really quite astonishingly unedifying.
And even if it is, AZN can't magic up something that doesn't exist.
The EU is doing itself zero favours here having f***ed up the most important project in decades.
Then the EU bit and said "release the contract" - and again AZN stayed quiet, waited until the next day and then said "OK contract can be released". I would bet my bottom pound that not only did AZN lawyers know what they were doing when they drafted that contract, but that in that period of radio silence AZN have had very smart, very well paid lawyers going through that contract to double-check there's nothing in there they'd missed that would sting them now.
Quite frankly the Commission are rank amateurs at what is being done right now. This is what AZN do for a living.2 -
Because nobody would ever sign a contract with them again?felix said:
Why don't they take the risk of unilaterally publishing the contract if they are so sure?ydoethur said:
Well, somebody is lying.CarlottaVance said:
Either the President of the Commission, a body which of course always acts with impeccable integrity and would never, say, impose an illegal ban on British beef exports to deflect attention from a vast outbreak of BSE in France, or the CEO of AstraZeneca, a pharmaceutical company who as we know are always models of charity and honesty.
Whichever one of them is lying, however, the losers are the citizens of the EU who have found their health and economic resilience turned into a political football over greater EU integration.
Which is really quite astonishingly unedifying.3 -
Even by the low standards of the royals the DoC is painfully bad at pretending to give a fuck.Theuniondivvie said:Glass eyes moistening across the nation.
https://twitter.com/bbcnews/status/1355004741768638465?s=210 -
Drakeford holding the line on teachers “we follow the JCVI”.4
-
Drakeford more of a leader for the Labour Party than Keir Starmer.CarlottaVance said:Drakeford holding the line on teachers “we follow the JCVI”.
What a joke.2 -
I think that we can be confident that AZN will never cut off supplies to a country just because someone is mouthing off. That would change the whole dynamic and would, I believe, give the moral high ground back to the EU - although that high ground might consist of nothing more than a small mole hill in this particular fight.Sandpit said:
Wow. Just wow. They’re quadrupling down. How long before AZ simply stops the supply to the EU and says we’ll see you in court? It’s hardly as if not supplying the EU leaves them with unsold stock.CarlottaVance said:
Before the past year, do we know how many contracts for purchase of pharmaceuticals the EU has negotiated directly? In constrast to AstraZenica’s contracts department, who we know have a very expensive team of lawyers doing just that, every day.
I would hope all the drugs companies would follow the same policy of continuing to honour their deals as legally committed and let the EU make itself look foolish with threats and inflammatory speeches.
The only way that should change is if the EU does actually start to block exports or take physical action against AZN in which case they really have jumped the shark and I suspect we will then see drug companies refusing to cooperate with them.
But as I said yesterday I simply don't think that will happen. Saner heads will prevail within the EU.0 -
Because that would no doubt breach the confidentiality provisions in that contract.felix said:
Why don't they take the risk of unilaterally publishing the contract if they are so sure?ydoethur said:
Well, somebody is lying.CarlottaVance said:
Either the President of the Commission, a body which of course always acts with impeccable integrity and would never, say, impose an illegal ban on British beef exports to deflect attention from a vast outbreak of BSE in France, or the CEO of AstraZeneca, a pharmaceutical company who as we know are always models of charity and honesty.
Whichever one of them is lying, however, the losers are the citizens of the EU who have found their health and economic resilience turned into a political football over greater EU integration.
Which is really quite astonishingly unedifying.0 -
DavidL said:
I agree. With a new product to be scaled up fast in new facilities that I don't think the EMA has even approved for use yet (Germany did yesterday and there may be other breaking of the ranks) it is utterly inconceivable that Astra Zeneca committed themselves to a fixed delivery schedule with liability if they failed. So there is either a "best efforts" clause or an exclusion from any liability or damages which makes the contractual obligations meaningless and unenforceable. If it is the latter than van der Leyen might technically be telling the truth but very far from the whole truth.eek said:
The thing is that it won't be AZN as no lawyer would let a contract out with binding delivery dates on a new product where delivery is being outsourced.ydoethur said:
Well, somebody is lying.CarlottaVance said:
Either the President of the Commission, a body which of course always acts with impeccable integrity and would never, say, impose an illegal ban on British beef exports to deflect attention from a vast outbreak of BSE in France, or the CEO of AstraZeneca, a pharmaceutical company who as we know are always models of charity and honesty.
Whichever one of them is lying, however, the losers are the citizens of the EU who have found their health and economic resilience turned into a political football over greater EU integration.
Which is really quite astonishingly unedifying.
And even if it is, AZN can't magic up something that doesn't exist.
The EU is doing itself zero favours here having f***ed up the most important project in decades.
So far the only thing we can be sure about is that the phrase "Best Effort" isn't in the document. But some similar clauses will be.DavidL said:
I agree. With a new product to be scaled up fast in new facilities that I don't think the EMA has even approved for use yet (Germany did yesterday and there may be other breaking of the ranks) it is utterly inconceivable that Astra Zeneca committed themselves to a fixed delivery schedule with liability if they failed. So there is either a "best efforts" clause or an exclusion from any liability or damages which makes the contractual obligations meaningless and unenforceable. If it is the latter than van der Leyen might technically be telling the truth but very far from the whole truth.eek said:
The thing is that it won't be AZN as no lawyer would let a contract out with binding delivery dates on a new product where delivery is being outsourced.ydoethur said:
Well, somebody is lying.CarlottaVance said:
Either the President of the Commission, a body which of course always acts with impeccable integrity and would never, say, impose an illegal ban on British beef exports to deflect attention from a vast outbreak of BSE in France, or the CEO of AstraZeneca, a pharmaceutical company who as we know are always models of charity and honesty.
Whichever one of them is lying, however, the losers are the citizens of the EU who have found their health and economic resilience turned into a political football over greater EU integration.
Which is really quite astonishingly unedifying.
And even if it is, AZN can't magic up something that doesn't exist.
The EU is doing itself zero favours here having f***ed up the most important project in decades.0 -
It's hard to see schools opening until after Easter, at least in England, and by then supplies should be plentiful. Capacity to give the vaccines doesnt seem too much of a limitation. The problem becomes one of giving the second doses, and prioritisation between groups, and hence one of administration of bookings.
It is best to keep it simple, and age works for that, as well as being clinically effective, but after the 60+ are done, there is perhaps a case for just letting anyone book in. That would build herd immunity fairly quickly. I suspect there would be continuing ethnic and socio-economic gaps, but campaigns could continue for these.
One great strength of the NHS primary care system is vaccinations. Less systematic healthcare models have their advantages, in consumerist terms, but are far behind in systematic coverage.
3 -
No I don't agree.MarqueeMark said:
No, I'm suggesting the J&J single jab - a June/early July roll-out works for that.Mysticrose said:
The world will not be 'awash' with vaccines. For athletes to be vaccinated and immune they would need to have finished vaccinating them no later than 6 weeks before the start of the games (21 days 1st to 2nd jab then 21 days for immunity) i.e. May. We won't even be at 5% of the global population by then with many vulnerable people awaiting their vaccines. So, no, Olympians and the officials should not have a priority.MarqueeMark said:
Because by the time we need to administer these jabs, we will be awash with vaccine. ?Mysticrose said:
Why? Why would they be a priority over people who would die as a result of your policy?MarqueeMark said:Still think we should offer up now a million jabs - although maybe half a million of the one jab Johnson and Johnson would be easier - to Olympic athletes and officials around the globe, so they can go ahead.
In general I agree with keeping spirits high but I'm not sure your enthusiasm for the Olympics over, say, soccer, NFL, baseball, cricket, rugby, darts, snooker, golf, tennis (which I accept is now a sort-of Olympic sport) would be shared by many people.
The Olympics is a spectacle and London was fantastic. But on the whole the event seems to have degenerated. The sports are often fringe or lacking professional participants and the centrepiece, athletics, is riddled with performance-enhancing drugs.
A blood test taken at the same time would do plenty to worry the cheats.
The Olympics are still THE showcase for world sport.
The sports on offer are frequently second-best and the competitors very worthy, often amateurs, some of whom may go on to do great things professionally. Some of the world's biggest sports are not represented: golf, football (let's be honest), NFL, baseball, rugby, cricket.
There is no centralised showpiece for world sport, thank god. The thought is a dystopian nightmare redolent of The Hunger Games.
You're also then pitching your argument on a vaccine the trials for which have not been published and regulation not, yet, approved. Even with a single jab it would need to be completed by May to get the athletes into their bio secure bubbles on site in time.
But aside from that, no vaccine should be diverted from the most vulnerable who are more likely to die. We know who they are: the JCVI list has a global application. That includes for sports people or social influencers.
Once the most vulnerable are jabbed then, fine, let's have a debate about who comes next.0 -
Of course she’s under massive pressure, she’s responsible for procuring close to a billion vaccines and only a couple of percent have turned up as other customers appear to have priority. It’s also quite literally a matter of life and death, with thousands of people succumbing to this virus every day. Politically, it’s as big a problem as they get.ydoethur said:
The whole point about those facilities, which the British taxpayer paid for, is that they will assist the EU *after* they have produced enough vaccine to fulfil their contract with the UK government.CarlottaVance said:
She’s clearly under enormous pressure from somewhere. This is flailing on speed.
I’m sure the amateur lawyers of the internet would be fascinated to see the contract, even knowing the language and jurisdiction would be interesting.
The problem is that’s there’s definitely confidentiality clauses galore in there, but if the language about deliveries was as bulletproof as the EU suggest, someone would have found a way to get a copy to a newspaper by now.
I’ll stick to my original belief that Big Pharma’s contracts departments know exactly what they’re doing.2 -
Not least as the EU strategy appears to be:ydoethur said:
The whole point about those facilities, which the British taxpayer paid for, is that they will assist the EU *after* they have produced enough vaccine to fulfil their contract with the UK government.CarlottaVance said:
She’s clearly under enormous pressure from somewhere. This is flailing on speed.
“We will ban exports from the EU” and
“We will force you to export to the EU”
Let alone the issue of countries stopping supplies to the EU if they do ban exports...1 -
Makes sense to vaccinate teachers/key workers ahead of others in same risk category who can work from home.
But vaccinating all teachers - as I understand Keir is calling for - is unjustified and Mike is right that it would likely lead to further unnecessary deaths. Disastrous idea from Starmer.
Maybe it's popular, but it would be the wrong thing to do.0
