The Supreme Court rejects the move by Texas to overturn Biden’s victory – politicalbetting.com
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The Supreme Court rejects the move by Texas to overturn Biden’s victory – politicalbetting.com
Overnight (UK time) the Supreme Court in Washington rejected the bid by the State of Texas to overturn President-elect Biden’s election win in what must be seen as a devastating blow to the long-shot legal efforts by Trump and his supporters to stave off his electoral defeat.
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The damage caused by Trump and mini-Trump is incalculable.
The removal of both from office is only the start of ironing out the mess they have created.1 -
It's not over until Betfair says it's over1
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Current Betfair prices:-
Biden 1.03
Democrats 1.03
Biden PV 1.02
Biden PV 49-51.9% 1.03
Trump PV 46-48.9% 1.03
Trump ECV 210-239 1.04
Biden ECV 300-329 1.04
Biden ECV Hcap -48.5 1.03
Biden ECV Hcap -63.5 1.04
Trump ECV Hcap +81.5 1.01
AZ Dem 1.03
GA Dem 1.04
MI Dem 1.03
NV Dem 1.03
PA Dem 1.04
WI Dem 1.03
Trump to leave before end of term NO 1.1
Trump exit date 2021 1.08
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Father Christmas will come down the White House chimney in the early hours of 25th December and deliver Trump a coupon. This should have been a coup on time but Giuliani and the Texas lawyers wrote the letter to Santa for the President and now Trump has a $50 coupon to spend in Walmart.3
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Podtwas0
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‘This comes ahead of the meeting of the Electoral College on Monday where Biden’s victory will be confirmed and hopefully be a trigger for Betfair to settle its £1.6bn market on the election.’
The triumph of hope over experience!1 -
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Unforrtunately it may be too late, on this side of the atlantic.Mysticrose said:The damage caused by Trump and mini-Trump is incalculable.
The removal of both from office is only the start of ironing out the mess they have created.1 -
Although that’s a bit of a spurious stat. After all, by that logic every defeated candidate since 1796 has got more votes than George Washington.rcs1000 said:3 -
OK.ydoethur said:
Although that’s a bit of a spurious stat. After all, by that logic every defeated candidate since 1800 has got more votes than George Washington.rcs1000 said:
In 1992, Bush and Clinton (between them) garnered the votes of 32.7% of the US population.
In 2020, Biden and Trump managed almost 50%.
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OK, you got me therercs1000 said:
OK.ydoethur said:
Although that’s a bit of a spurious stat. After all, by that logic every defeated candidate since 1800 has got more votes than George Washington.rcs1000 said:
In 1992, Bush and Clinton (between them) garnered the votes of 32.7% of the US population.
In 2020, Biden and Trump managed almost 50%.
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I'd always wondered what a coup on election was......JACK_W said:Father Christmas will come down the White House chimney in the early hours of 25th December and deliver Trump a coupon. This should have been a coup on time but Giuliani and the Texas lawyers wrote the letter to Santa for the President and now Trump has a $50 coupon to spend in Walmart.
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You need to respond with "yeah, but in 1992 there was a viable third party candidate, so the numbers aren't comparable."ydoethur said:
OK, you got me therercs1000 said:
OK.ydoethur said:
Although that’s a bit of a spurious stat. After all, by that logic every defeated candidate since 1800 has got more votes than George Washington.rcs1000 said:
In 1992, Bush and Clinton (between them) garnered the votes of 32.7% of the US population.
In 2020, Biden and Trump managed almost 50%.2 -
Good morning, fellow larks. (Or night-owls from across the pond!)rcs1000 said:
OK.ydoethur said:
Although that’s a bit of a spurious stat. After all, by that logic every defeated candidate since 1800 has got more votes than George Washington.rcs1000 said:
In 1992, Bush and Clinton (between them) garnered the votes of 32.7% of the US population.
In 2020, Biden and Trump managed almost 50%.
This seems a sad commentary on the turnout in American Presidential elections. Or would be if Perot hadn't picked up around half the number of votes Buch did.
A minor thought on this election; there was no third (or fourth) party candidate who took anything like a significant share of the vote.1 -
But in 2020 the third party Democratic Republican candidate actually came second, so that doesn’t work.rcs1000 said:
You need to respond with "yeah, but in 1992 there was a viable third party candidate, so the numbers aren't comparable."ydoethur said:
OK, you got me therercs1000 said:
OK.ydoethur said:
Although that’s a bit of a spurious stat. After all, by that logic every defeated candidate since 1800 has got more votes than George Washington.rcs1000 said:
In 1992, Bush and Clinton (between them) garnered the votes of 32.7% of the US population.
In 2020, Biden and Trump managed almost 50%.1 -
They don’t believe in it. The tragedy and the ignominy of this cabinet is they don’t even believe in it themselves. They don’t believe in the painless Brexit or the sunlit future they’ve promised to deliver. You can hear it in their voices as they tour the studios and TV sofas ducking the words “no deal” and babbling about Australia. You can see it in their eyes as they try to reconcile their pledge to strain every sinew to get a deal, with their assurance that it will be fine if they don’t get one. You can sense it in their body language as swagger teeters on the edge of fear. That photograph of Boris Johnson standing beside Ursula von der Leyen said it all.
Whole political careers have been built on selling Brexit by men and women who don’t, in their guts, buy Brexit. And now, in the days ahead, they must make the sales pitch of their lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/were-heading-for-a-true-believers-brexit-xgkmhvl6x5 -
I was assured by cool rational bettors who do not allow their emotions to cloud their betting decisions that this was serious!0
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I hope TSE doesn’t have Amazon Prime.
They’ve just offered me a collection of Christmas movies including Die Hard 2.2 -
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Apparently Die Hard 2 is a Christmas horror cult home movie featuring TSE who (spoiler alert) expires in the last moments of the sexual act whilst re-watching the AV referendum result as a red suited gentleman comes down the chimney and delivers pineapple pizza. TSE does at least die with his red shoes on but in a final twist Santa steals them for sartorial reasons.ydoethur said:I hope TSE doesn’t have Amazon Prime.
They’ve just offered me a collection of Christmas movies including Die Hard 2.5 -
Sounds like the 126 sedition seeking congress critters are on final warning by Pelosi.0
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Pretty noteworthy that seven judges booted it immediately and even Alito and Thomas felt they had to say “I’d have let it be filed on procedural grounds THEN booted it immediately”.0
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The Electoral College session on Monday could be popcorn-worthy. Do the candidates normally turn up to it?
Of course, presumably this year it will be by Zoom or similar.0 -
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This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.Scott_xP said:They don’t believe in it. The tragedy and the ignominy of this cabinet is they don’t even believe in it themselves. They don’t believe in the painless Brexit or the sunlit future they’ve promised to deliver. You can hear it in their voices as they tour the studios and TV sofas ducking the words “no deal” and babbling about Australia. You can see it in their eyes as they try to reconcile their pledge to strain every sinew to get a deal, with their assurance that it will be fine if they don’t get one. You can sense it in their body language as swagger teeters on the edge of fear. That photograph of Boris Johnson standing beside Ursula von der Leyen said it all.
Whole political careers have been built on selling Brexit by men and women who don’t, in their guts, buy Brexit. And now, in the days ahead, they must make the sales pitch of their lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/were-heading-for-a-true-believers-brexit-xgkmhvl6x
Does Boris really believe in Brexit? Does Donald Trump really believe the election was fixed? And does Bruce Willis believe in Christmas? Or are all three using these events purely for self-advancement, regardless of the cost to others?5 -
Nope, each slate of electors votes in person (normally at the state capitol). The electors are brought in and they vote with some ceremony. This year they’re meeting up in secret, being driven to the location by state troopers and voting in an abbreviated manner because of Covid according to politico.OldKingCole said:The Electoral College session on Monday could be popcorn-worthy. Do the candidates normally turn up to it?
Of course, presumably this year it will be by Zoom or similar.0 -
Well, no, because it takes place in 51 different locations. Although this year they could in practice meet remotely as a body I’m assuming they’ll still ‘meet’ on a state by state basis.OldKingCole said:The Electoral College session on Monday could be popcorn-worthy. Do the candidates normally turn up to it?
Of course, presumably this year it will be by Zoom or similar.0 -
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.0 -
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The price is directly equivalent to percentage chance. So the nutters on there were betting Trump had a 12% chance of winning.Scott_xP said:
Put's the Betfair prices in a new light.0 -
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Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.5 -
Does it really have to be pointed out that saying that the UK, like France and Germany, is as an economically-developed democracy, and hence a desirable place to live, is not despising one’s own country?felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.3 -
Parris is right though isn`t he. I don`t think that "middle class chatterers" despise their own country - rather, they see equivalence with others.felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
That translates, for some, as "not patriotic" I agree.2 -
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British exceptionalism is the best exceptionalism in the world.10
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On topic: ha ha ha. What a fucking surprise. Even Kavanaugh stayed sober long enough to recognise this as the crock of shit it is. Trump loses again, what a beautiful sight.0
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We know that MPs, on balance, don`t believe in it. We had a referendum though didn`t we. That was the mistake.Scott_xP said:They don’t believe in it. The tragedy and the ignominy of this cabinet is they don’t even believe in it themselves. They don’t believe in the painless Brexit or the sunlit future they’ve promised to deliver. You can hear it in their voices as they tour the studios and TV sofas ducking the words “no deal” and babbling about Australia. You can see it in their eyes as they try to reconcile their pledge to strain every sinew to get a deal, with their assurance that it will be fine if they don’t get one. You can sense it in their body language as swagger teeters on the edge of fear. That photograph of Boris Johnson standing beside Ursula von der Leyen said it all.
Whole political careers have been built on selling Brexit by men and women who don’t, in their guts, buy Brexit. And now, in the days ahead, they must make the sales pitch of their lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/were-heading-for-a-true-believers-brexit-xgkmhvl6x
My anger is placed on those MPs who voted for there to be a referendum, when they did so out of fear of their particular electorates rather than because they really thought that there should be one regardless of the result.
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Not at all but he doesn't say that - nor did the remain campaign. He denigrates the fact that millions of voters have pride in their country and prefer to govern themselves than be governed afar from Europe. I was happy to vote remain but like many am less than fond of the way the EU operates. I have lived in Spain for many years and the attitudes of many Spanish to central government in both Spain and the EU are very similar. It is the way lots of people think. For a multitude of reasons - not least an inept and patronising campaign - the vote in 2016 was lost. We need to move one from blaming 'gullible' voters and dealing with the consequences. The plain fact is that many on the liberal, left centre are to put it mildly unconvincing when selling their version of what the UK should be - the last one to do so effectively was T. Blair and it didn't end well.ThomasNashe said:
Does it really have to be pointed out that saying that the UK, like France and Germany, is as an economically-developed democracy, and hence a desirable place to live, is not despising one’s own country?felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.3 -
Ahem - try Roger of this parish's comments about those who live in Hartlepool as just one of many examples.Stocky said:
Parris is right though isn`t he. I don`t think that "middle class chatterers" despise their own country - rather, they see equivalence with others.felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
That translates, for some, as "not patriotic" I agree.1 -
Why does condemning supine Tory ministers who claim the UK will thrive after a no deal Brexit when they know what harm it will cause equate to despising the country?felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
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Was that the one which Labour and others voted down when they had the chance? I mean I agree but the failure of so many to accept the result in 2016 and try to reverse it has contributed to the mess.Scott_xP said:-1 -
See your point. Sounds like we are both "reluctant remainers". This used to be the majority position I think. The referendum, on reflection, was impossible to win when everything we said was categorised as "Project Fear".felix said:
Ahem - try Roger of this parish's comments about those who live in Hartlepool as just one of many examples.Stocky said:
Parris is right though isn`t he. I don`t think that "middle class chatterers" despise their own country - rather, they see equivalence with others.felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
That translates, for some, as "not patriotic" I agree.2 -
How is your contempt for middle class, Remain-voting liberals any less hate-filled than Roger’s contempt for working class, Leave voters in Hartlepool?felix said:
Ahem - try Roger of this parish's comments about those who live in Hartlepool as just one of many examples.Stocky said:
Parris is right though isn`t he. I don`t think that "middle class chatterers" despise their own country - rather, they see equivalence with others.felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
That translates, for some, as "not patriotic" I agree.
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Felix clearly subscribes to a Trumpian school of logic.SouthamObserver said:
Why does condemning supine Tory ministers who claim the UK will thrive after a no deal Brexit when they know what harm it will cause equate to despising the country?felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.0 -
I love the country of my birth, Scotland. I love my adopted city, London - especially the southern region thereof. I have enough affection for England to put up St George bunting and support their football team every four years. I hate Brexit, and think it shows England in a rather unflattering light. My feelings are more like sadness than anger, though.Stocky said:
Parris is right though isn`t he. I don`t think that "middle class chatterers" despise their own country - rather, they see equivalence with others.felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
That translates, for some, as "not patriotic" I agree.
The feelings of one middle class person (not really a chatterer, I tend to leave the small talk to my wife).2 -
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As you know my reference was to his attitude to the voters because they have views about their country with which he disagrees. And I believe he is wrong. I do not like Brexit but I do not think tens of millions of voters believe the British are 'much, much better than the rest'. Nor do I think criticising them in this way will help to move things forward any more than that approach helped in 2016. Every day this site is littered with those who bemoan the 'ignorance' of millions who voted for Brexit - often denigrating their provincialism, lack of education etc, etc. Frankly it is not a good look.SouthamObserver said:
Why does condemning supine Tory ministers who claim the UK will thrive after a no deal Brexit when they know what harm it will cause equate to despising the country?felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.2 -
But is there any real evidence that British exceptionalism was a significant factor? I favour austerity; others blame immigration; the old Tory buffers on the backbenches bang on about sovereignty. Exceptionalism though?ThomasNashe said:
Does it really have to be pointed out that saying that the UK, like France and Germany, is as an economically-developed democracy, and hence a desirable place to live, is not despising one’s own country?felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.1 -
Yep, the Tory-led and Tory-fronted campaign to Remain in the EU was inept. The Tory-led and Tory-fronted campaign to Leave was much more effective. Now we await the thrilling prosperity, low taxes, low borrowing, high public spending and global British leadership this Tory government has promised to deliver for us. It’s going to be great.felix said:
Not at all but he doesn't say that - nor did the remain campaign. He denigrates the fact that millions of voters have pride in their country and prefer to govern themselves than be governed afar from Europe. I was happy to vote remain but like many am less than fond of the way the EU operates. I have lived in Spain for many years and the attitudes of many Spanish to central government in both Spain and the EU are very similar. It is the way lots of people think. For a multitude of reasons - not least an inept and patronising campaign - the vote in 2016 was lost. We need to move one from blaming 'gullible' voters and dealing with the consequences. The plain fact is that many on the liberal, left centre are to put it mildly unconvincing when selling their version of what the UK should be - the last one to do so effectively was T. Blair and it didn't end well.ThomasNashe said:
Does it really have to be pointed out that saying that the UK, like France and Germany, is as an economically-developed democracy, and hence a desirable place to live, is not despising one’s own country?felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
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On topic: ACB seems to have failed badly in her first mission against the Deep State?1
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Good morning, everyone.
Mr. JohnL, quite agree. Some people like attributing fictional causes for the result to help them evade having to engage with genuine arguments or people's real concerns, whilst also allowing them paint Leavers as weird or otherwise flawed.0 -
I don't usually have much time for the "you are an expat" argument, but these people at least do not despise their country too much to live there. We here are facing, and you are not, a period of real discomfort and uncertainty and perhaps worse. You are not. That being so, could you just put the whole being a complete prick thing on hold for a month or so? Thanks.felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.1 -
OT I've been working my way through the Lovejoy box set and they seem to have had an eye on the US market, with references to Donald Trump and the War of Independence, and the American pronunciation of Moscow. There's even been a character called Nick Palmer. A useful reminder (to me) that it can be hard to distinguish trends from coincidences.0
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F1: had a quick early look at Perez for points, as he starts at the back. Only 1.36.
Not interested at those odds. Every chance he'll do it but also of getting caught up in lap 1 shenanigans.1 -
Different not least becuase I voted remain - but they massively dominate the media and I cannot easily forgive them for the fact that they manged to lose what should have been an easy win. I am middle-class but I do not despise the lives and views of those who aren't.SouthamObserver said:
How is your contempt for middle class, Remain-voting liberals any less hate-filled than Roger’s contempt for working class, Leave voters in Hartlepool?felix said:
Ahem - try Roger of this parish's comments about those who live in Hartlepool as just one of many examples.Stocky said:
Parris is right though isn`t he. I don`t think that "middle class chatterers" despise their own country - rather, they see equivalence with others.felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
That translates, for some, as "not patriotic" I agree.2 -
Maybe you should spend more time in the UK, Felix. There is undoubtedly a strong strain of exceptionalism here that is perfectly encapsulated by the likes of the Mail, the Telegraph, the Express and the Sun. I do agree it’s not tens of millions of people, though. But it doesn’t need to be.felix said:
As you know my reference was to his attitude to the voters because they have views about their country with which he disagrees. And I believe he is wrong. I do not like Brexit but I do not think tens of millions of voters believe the British are 'much, much better than the rest'. Nor do I think criticising them in this way will help to move things forward any more than that approach helped in 2016. Every day this site is littered with those who bemoan the 'ignorance' of millions who voted for Brexit - often denigrating their provincialism, lack of education etc, etc. Frankly it is not a good look.SouthamObserver said:
Why does condemning supine Tory ministers who claim the UK will thrive after a no deal Brexit when they know what harm it will cause equate to despising the country?felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
1 -
That Twitter thread is well worth a read. I remember the shortages in the shops in the early Seventies, including toilet rolls at one point.Scott_xP said:
https://twitter.com/redhistorian/status/1337529833346265090?s=192 -
https://twitter.com/BeschlossDC/status/1337551360909332484ThomasNashe said:On topic: ACB seems to have failed badly in her first mission against the Deep State?
0 -
The abundance of foodbanks in ' eastern European' France is clearly still hurting I see.Jonathan said:
Felix clearly subscribes to a Trumpian school of logic.SouthamObserver said:
Why does condemning supine Tory ministers who claim the UK will thrive after a no deal Brexit when they know what harm it will cause equate to despising the country?felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.0 -
In an election where 2% swings the vote wouldnt there be many factors? More than 2% think the UK is better than its neighbours so shouldnt have to follow the collective rules. It is less of a factor than austerity, immigration or even PTs favourite sovereignty but it exists to a significant level given how close the vote is.DecrepiterJohnL said:
But is there any real evidence that British exceptionalism was a significant factor? I favour austerity; others blame immigration; the old Tory buffers on the backbenches bang on about sovereignty. Exceptionalism though?ThomasNashe said:
Does it really have to be pointed out that saying that the UK, like France and Germany, is as an economically-developed democracy, and hence a desirable place to live, is not despising one’s own country?felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.0 -
Lol. Nice try.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, the Tory-led and Tory-fronted campaign to Remain in the EU was inept. The Tory-led and Tory-fronted campaign to Leave was much more effective. Now we await the thrilling prosperity, low taxes, low borrowing, high public spending and global British leadership this Tory government has promised to deliver for us. It’s going to be great.felix said:
Not at all but he doesn't say that - nor did the remain campaign. He denigrates the fact that millions of voters have pride in their country and prefer to govern themselves than be governed afar from Europe. I was happy to vote remain but like many am less than fond of the way the EU operates. I have lived in Spain for many years and the attitudes of many Spanish to central government in both Spain and the EU are very similar. It is the way lots of people think. For a multitude of reasons - not least an inept and patronising campaign - the vote in 2016 was lost. We need to move one from blaming 'gullible' voters and dealing with the consequences. The plain fact is that many on the liberal, left centre are to put it mildly unconvincing when selling their version of what the UK should be - the last one to do so effectively was T. Blair and it didn't end well.ThomasNashe said:
Does it really have to be pointed out that saying that the UK, like France and Germany, is as an economically-developed democracy, and hence a desirable place to live, is not despising one’s own country?felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.0 -
Nationalism, patriotism all as a result of where you happen to have been born. Why does one owe loyalty to to a place of birth? In the end it only leads to people dying, trying to screw their neighbors and having to prove you are better than other human beings. There must be better building blocks for society which harnesses cooperation rather than diversity.8
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Mr. Observer, disagree.
Lots of pro-EU people see us as more European in identity terms compared to sceptics. I think the exceptionalism you see isn't there, it's just how you read people who think the UK/its people/its culture are more substantially different and separate to the EU.
Our different approaches to law are just one example of this.
Wanting to control our own policies isn't exceptionalism, it's the norm for democratic nation-states. There is an argument to give away slices of sovereignty, losing control by degrees in exchange for greater bargaining power, but that is a trade-off. And the emotional attachment to the EU is something that very few British people have.4 -
Tony Blair might have been an exceptionalist: This country is a blessed nation. The British are special. The world knows it; in our innermost thoughts, we know it. This is the greatest nation on Earth.felix said:
Not at all but he doesn't say that - nor did the remain campaign. He denigrates the fact that millions of voters have pride in their country and prefer to govern themselves than be governed afar from Europe. I was happy to vote remain but like many am less than fond of the way the EU operates. I have lived in Spain for many years and the attitudes of many Spanish to central government in both Spain and the EU are very similar. It is the way lots of people think. For a multitude of reasons - not least an inept and patronising campaign - the vote in 2016 was lost. We need to move one from blaming 'gullible' voters and dealing with the consequences. The plain fact is that many on the liberal, left centre are to put it mildly unconvincing when selling their version of what the UK should be - the last one to do so effectively was T. Blair and it didn't end well.ThomasNashe said:
Does it really have to be pointed out that saying that the UK, like France and Germany, is as an economically-developed democracy, and hence a desirable place to live, is not despising one’s own country?felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.1 -
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I thought it was covid-related, and worldwide?Scott_xP said:3 -
It's funny seeing people refer to British exceptionalism just because some don't want to be in their larger federation neighbour.
Don't hear much talk about Canadian exceptionalism for not want to be states of the USA.2 -
True. Most people who voted remain have no emotional attachment to the construct. It was cold hard economics (see Thatcher upthread) and self interest (we had more opportunities inside than out)Morris_Dancer said:And the emotional attachment to the EU is something that very few British people have.
1 -
Mr. Nichomar, although the Andromeda sci-fi series was, er, not great, the idea of a Nietzschean race was pretty interesting (unified more by philosophical outlook than anything else).
The problem is practicality. You can't slice and dice a landmass into a billion tiny pockets of difference that co-operate on some matters and not others. That'd be chaotic. Stability and cohesion requires larger scale political bodies, hence the nation-state.
The EU's problem is the tension between democratic nation-states with coherent national identities and the ever increasing pressure for greater integration and (usually) permanent ceding of national power from an electorate to a bureaucracy.
Verhofstadt's[sp] open federalism has its drawbacks but it does at least recognise the problem...
Mr. JohnL, he was projecting Americanisms. Rather akin to BLM dimwits.1 -
Hello - I didn't realise you owned and moderated the site and decided who could post. Oh and btw all of my income is from the UK to which I pay taxes and also which has been impacted by the fall in the £ as a result of the Brexit uncertainty which I did not vote for. And I am not an 'expat' I am an immigrant in Spain and very content to stay even on a reduced income.IshmaelZ said:
I don't usually have much time for the "you are an expat" argument, but these people at least do not despise their country too much to live there. We here are facing, and you are not, a period of real discomfort and uncertainty and perhaps worse. You are not. That being so, could you just put the whole being a complete prick thing on hold for a month or so? Thanks.felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.4 -
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Perhaps this is English exceptionalism......but in terms of supermarkets we may have the best blend of price, range and quality in the world.Foxy said:
That Twitter thread is well worth a read. I remember the shortages in the shops in the early Seventies, including toilet rolls at one point.Scott_xP said:
https://twitter.com/redhistorian/status/1337529833346265090?s=19
I have seen better on each individually elsewhere but not the combination.
We seem to be putting that at risk to avoid BJs political embarrassment.0 -
He's right though, isn't he? Tories led the Leave campaign and did, then and subsequently, promise sunlit uplands. For instance:-felix said:
Lol. Nice try.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, the Tory-led and Tory-fronted campaign to Remain in the EU was inept. The Tory-led and Tory-fronted campaign to Leave was much more effective. Now we await the thrilling prosperity, low taxes, low borrowing, high public spending and global British leadership this Tory government has promised to deliver for us. It’s going to be great.felix said:
Not at all but he doesn't say that - nor did the remain campaign. He denigrates the fact that millions of voters have pride in their country and prefer to govern themselves than be governed afar from Europe. I was happy to vote remain but like many am less than fond of the way the EU operates. I have lived in Spain for many years and the attitudes of many Spanish to central government in both Spain and the EU are very similar. It is the way lots of people think. For a multitude of reasons - not least an inept and patronising campaign - the vote in 2016 was lost. We need to move one from blaming 'gullible' voters and dealing with the consequences. The plain fact is that many on the liberal, left centre are to put it mildly unconvincing when selling their version of what the UK should be - the last one to do so effectively was T. Blair and it didn't end well.ThomasNashe said:
Does it really have to be pointed out that saying that the UK, like France and Germany, is as an economically-developed democracy, and hence a desirable place to live, is not despising one’s own country?felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Jacob Rees-Mogg: No-deal Brexit will boost UK economy by £1.1 trillion over 15 years
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/10/jacob-rees-mogg-no-deal-brexit-will-boost-uk-economy-11-trillion/0 -
And to seal it, Gavin Williamson said similar a few days ago.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Tony Blair might have been an exceptionalist: This country is a blessed nation. The British are special. The world knows it; in our innermost thoughts, we know it. This is the greatest nation on Earth.felix said:
Not at all but he doesn't say that - nor did the remain campaign. He denigrates the fact that millions of voters have pride in their country and prefer to govern themselves than be governed afar from Europe. I was happy to vote remain but like many am less than fond of the way the EU operates. I have lived in Spain for many years and the attitudes of many Spanish to central government in both Spain and the EU are very similar. It is the way lots of people think. For a multitude of reasons - not least an inept and patronising campaign - the vote in 2016 was lost. We need to move one from blaming 'gullible' voters and dealing with the consequences. The plain fact is that many on the liberal, left centre are to put it mildly unconvincing when selling their version of what the UK should be - the last one to do so effectively was T. Blair and it didn't end well.ThomasNashe said:
Does it really have to be pointed out that saying that the UK, like France and Germany, is as an economically-developed democracy, and hence a desirable place to live, is not despising one’s own country?felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.0 -
To start with could have tried making positive arguments for what was good with the EU. Given some sunlit European uplands.Scott_xP said:
OK, what should they have done that they didn't do to convince the Little Englanders that staying in was better than BoZo's sunlit uplands?felix said:they manged to lose what should have been an easy win.
Simply saying life will be shit under Brexit doesn't work for those of us who aren't afraid of Brexit.2 -
Are the votes public or do they get sealed until Congress counts them on January 6?OnboardG1 said:
Nope, each slate of electors votes in person (normally at the state capitol). The electors are brought in and they vote with some ceremony. This year they’re meeting up in secret, being driven to the location by state troopers and voting in an abbreviated manner because of Covid according to politico.OldKingCole said:The Electoral College session on Monday could be popcorn-worthy. Do the candidates normally turn up to it?
Of course, presumably this year it will be by Zoom or similar.0 -
Mr. Scott, the Remain campaign remains bizarre because those things offer pretty clear strategies for positive advocacy (look at these advantage, ooh, shiny) whereas they focused on the alternative and overdid the woe and doom so much that the credible warnings were ignored.
If there's an Achilles' heel (currency, say...) hammering it makes sense. A general "everything will be terrible unless you vote for us" makes it feel extorted, and in a battle devoid of facts and reason (both campaigns were awful) complacent hope will usually trump fear and nagging.
That said, it was still pretty close.1 -
Yes everyone who lives overseas despises their own country. Take a look in the mirror before you go calling others pricks.IshmaelZ said:
I don't usually have much time for the "you are an expat" argument, but these people at least do not despise their country too much to live there. We here are facing, and you are not, a period of real discomfort and uncertainty and perhaps worse. You are not. That being so, could you just put the whole being a complete prick thing on hold for a month or so? Thanks.felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.2 -
We are, but this is the bit that makes no sense.noneoftheabove said:We seem to be putting that at risk to avoid BJs political embarrassment.
He avoids political embarrassment for a week, but how does he avoid the political embarrassment of delays and shortages and closures in the New year?0 -
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I think they should have been more honest about the pros and cons, I think they should have tried to address the concerns of voters instead of denigrating them and calling them silly names. That would have been a start. But what's done is done - and they show little sign of having learnt a thing in the meantime - the Labour party abdicated completely with the Corbyn nonsense, the Liberals helped scupper the May deal and the Tories chose probably the worst leader for the job possible - yet he won easily despite 3 years of constant sniping about the 2016 vote. It's very frustrating - and to top,it all the EU has been less than stellar in its approach.Scott_xP said:
OK, what should they have done that they didn't do to convince the Little Englanders that staying in was better than BoZo's sunlit uplands?felix said:they manged to lose what should have been an easy win.
1 -
Isn't Honda Swindon due to close anyway?Scott_xP said:
I remember when it was Mrs T that got Honda here to help modernise moribund British Leyland. The first of the Japanese to have a car factory here.0 -
The real mistakes were the Tory-led campaign to join the EEC in the 1960s and finally in 1972 and the Tory-led campaign to sign up to the European Union in 1992. Mind you, the Labour-led campaign to seal our membership with a referendum in 1975 was pretty shady too, as was the Labour-led campaign to give up much of our rebate in 2007 for nothing in return.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, the Tory-led and Tory-fronted campaign to Remain in the EU was inept. The Tory-led and Tory-fronted campaign to Leave was much more effective. Now we await the thrilling prosperity, low taxes, low borrowing, high public spending and global British leadership this Tory government has promised to deliver for us. It’s going to be great.felix said:
Not at all but he doesn't say that - nor did the remain campaign. He denigrates the fact that millions of voters have pride in their country and prefer to govern themselves than be governed afar from Europe. I was happy to vote remain but like many am less than fond of the way the EU operates. I have lived in Spain for many years and the attitudes of many Spanish to central government in both Spain and the EU are very similar. It is the way lots of people think. For a multitude of reasons - not least an inept and patronising campaign - the vote in 2016 was lost. We need to move one from blaming 'gullible' voters and dealing with the consequences. The plain fact is that many on the liberal, left centre are to put it mildly unconvincing when selling their version of what the UK should be - the last one to do so effectively was T. Blair and it didn't end well.ThomasNashe said:
Does it really have to be pointed out that saying that the UK, like France and Germany, is as an economically-developed democracy, and hence a desirable place to live, is not despising one’s own country?felix said:
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.Scott_xP said:
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.DecrepiterJohnL said:This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Gordon Brown's campaign to sign us up to the European Constitution by relabelling it to avoid a referendum is in a class by itself for deceit and treachery.
The whole history of our dealing with the EEC/EU since the 60s has been a sorry mess. The only person who really managed to change things for the better, however temporarily, was, inevitably, Margaret Thatcher, when she got most of our money back.2 -
I am signed up to team Kinabalu on this, we do the deal in the end. Slightly wavering given the rhetoric and posturing but the logic flowing from your question is decisive.Scott_xP said:
We are, but this is the bit that makes no sense.noneoftheabove said:We seem to be putting that at risk to avoid BJs political embarrassment.
He avoids political embarrassment for a week, but how does he avoid the political embarrassment of delays and shortages and closures in the New year?1 -
He should lose or resign the whip.Scott_xP said:1 -
Mr. Fishing, aye.
Consulting the electorate earlier would've presented the opportunity to get a democratic mandate to try and change things without leaving.
However, Cameron didn't have a huge amount of choice, and whilst he should've insisted on a prospectus put together by the official Leave campaign if he hadn't offered a referendum it could easily have led to a Con-UKIP coalition doing the same thing more tilted to Leave.
The PCP, however, deserves excoriating for backing the likes of Boris Johnson, a man unfit to be in Cabinet and a proven incompetent, to succeed May.4 -
Ah yes.Scott_xP said:
The other guilty politicians. The Congress and state supporters of Trump's myriad desperate lawsuits, and the MPs who voted for a Brexit they believe will harm this country.
Whatever you think about Peter Bone or Bill Cash, at least they've given the matter some thought. They might be deluded, they probably are wrong but they do believe what they say about Brexit. Hand on heart, can you say the same about Boris?0 -
1 Wind up liberal comedians.Scott_xP said:
2 Got King Boris on the throne.
3 Shown them foreigners who is boss.
4 Fish!!!
5 Sovereignty
6 Errr....0 -
1) Blue passports (though personally I like the burgundy ones);Scott_xP said:
2) Have to admit I’m struggling now.
3) Err. I give up.0 -
The only thing BoZo believes in is BoZoDecrepiterJohnL said:They might be deluded, they probably are wrong but they do believe what they say about Brexit. Hand on heart, can you say the same about Boris?
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