This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
Parris is right though isn`t he. I don`t think that "middle class chatterers" despise their own country - rather, they see equivalence with others.
That translates, for some, as "not patriotic" I agree.
Ahem - try Roger of this parish's comments about those who live in Hartlepool as just one of many examples.
How is your contempt for middle class, Remain-voting liberals any less hate-filled than Roger’s contempt for working class, Leave voters in Hartlepool?
Different not least becuase I voted remain - but they massively dominate the media and I cannot easily forgive them for the fact that they manged to lose what should have been an easy win. I am middle-class but I do not despise the lives and views of those who aren't.
You have made clear you despise middle class, Remain-voting liberals. They are every bit as British as the British people you do not despise.
This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
Parris is right though isn`t he. I don`t think that "middle class chatterers" despise their own country - rather, they see equivalence with others.
That translates, for some, as "not patriotic" I agree.
Ahem - try Roger of this parish's comments about those who live in Hartlepool as just one of many examples.
See your point. Sounds like we are both "reluctant remainers". This used to be the majority position I think. The referendum, on reflection, was impossible to win when everything we said was categorised as "Project Fear".
And the irony is that, had the UK government gone for something in the range EEA to May, it would have stuck. Those of us who would have preferred a closer relationship would have been sad, but there would have been no way of building up the pressure to move. Immediate "Project Fear" wouldn't have happened, and the drifting apart would have been gradual but decisive.
The impatience and lust for power of Johnson et al has forced the UK into a much bigger gamble, whose odds don't look good. If I were an obsessive Europhile, I ought to be rubbing my hands in glee. As it is, all I feel is a sad nervousness for my country which I love.
This stream of faux jingoism over fishing has cynically captured media attention, as the government doubtless planned, but is a sickening distraction from the much greater consequences riding upon the government's actions these next few days.
Incidentally the popular song intended to whip up support for taking on the Russians in the 1870s, which gave rise to the term 'jingoism', ran as follows:
"We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do" "We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too"
The second line might need a bit of copyediting in view of our lack thereof.
This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
Why does condemning supine Tory ministers who claim the UK will thrive after a no deal Brexit when they know what harm it will cause equate to despising the country?
As you know my reference was to his attitude to the voters because they have views about their country with which he disagrees. And I believe he is wrong. I do not like Brexit but I do not think tens of millions of voters believe the British are 'much, much better than the rest'. Nor do I think criticising them in this way will help to move things forward any more than that approach helped in 2016. Every day this site is littered with those who bemoan the 'ignorance' of millions who voted for Brexit - often denigrating their provincialism, lack of education etc, etc. Frankly it is not a good look.
Maybe you should spend more time in the UK, Felix. There is undoubtedly a strong strain of exceptionalism here that is perfectly encapsulated by the likes of the Mail, the Telegraph, the Express and the Sun. I do agree it’s not tens of millions of people, though. But it doesn’t need to be.
And maybe you should try hearing ordinary folk elsewhere - the locals in my bit of rural Spain have very robust views on immigrants which are more robust the darker their skin and the emptier their purses. They are fiercely patriotic, resent Madrilenos and yearn still for the peseta. There is much distrust of Brussels not least given the Belgian attitude to their Catalonian exiles. I neither despise them nor agree with all of their views but I think people the world over are remarkably similar - we have to get along regardless.
1) Slow-motion drift to confrontational disaster, no deal and no more negotiations confirmed proudly by the government in the next few days, Tories seek to play up the Falklands-style gunboat radical populism.
2) Uncertainty and postponed deadlines, drift through christmas, ad hoc arrangements put in place in January to keep transport and haulier networks running, EU waits for the UK to come to the table.
3) Sudden rabbit-out-of-the-hat act by Johnson in the next few days claiming victory, limited deal agreed.
This stream of faux jingoism over fishing has cynically captured media attention, as the government doubtless planned, but is a sickening distraction from the much greater consequences riding upon the government's actions these next few days.
Incidentally the popular song intended to whip up support for taking on the Russians in the 1870s, which gave rise to the term 'jingoism', ran as follows:
"We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do" "We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too"
The second line might need a bit of copyediting in view of our lack thereof.
Thanks to Tory spending cuts, we have four Royal Navy boats to patrol hundreds of thousands of miles of water. But given that we do not believe in international law, I don’t see the issue anyway.
For saying we should get a deal? He has hit upon one of the key considerations, though. Johnson just isn’t prepared to put in the hard graft involved in getting one.
This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
Parris is right though isn`t he. I don`t think that "middle class chatterers" despise their own country - rather, they see equivalence with others.
That translates, for some, as "not patriotic" I agree.
Ahem - try Roger of this parish's comments about those who live in Hartlepool as just one of many examples.
See your point. Sounds like we are both "reluctant remainers". This used to be the majority position I think. The referendum, on reflection, was impossible to win when everything we said was categorised as "Project Fear".
And the irony is that, had the UK government gone for something in the range EEA to May, it would have stuck. Those of us who would have preferred a closer relationship would have been sad, but there would have been no way of building up the pressure to move. Immediate "Project Fear" wouldn't have happened, and the drifting apart would have been gradual but decisive.
The impatience and lust for power of Johnson et al has forced the UK into a much bigger gamble, whose odds don't look good. If I were an obsessive Europhile, I ought to be rubbing my hands in glee. As it is, all I feel is a sad nervousness for my country which I love.
EEA allows free movement - that was never going to fly. If the EU had allowed Cameron an "emergency brake" on free movement, applicable when, for example, a nation`s population density breached as particular level, the referendum result could very well have been different.
This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
Does it really have to be pointed out that saying that the UK, like France and Germany, is as an economically-developed democracy, and hence a desirable place to live, is not despising one’s own country?
Not at all but he doesn't say that - nor did the remain campaign. He denigrates the fact that millions of voters have pride in their country and prefer to govern themselves than be governed afar from Europe. I was happy to vote remain but like many am less than fond of the way the EU operates. I have lived in Spain for many years and the attitudes of many Spanish to central government in both Spain and the EU are very similar. It is the way lots of people think. For a multitude of reasons - not least an inept and patronising campaign - the vote in 2016 was lost. We need to move one from blaming 'gullible' voters and dealing with the consequences. The plain fact is that many on the liberal, left centre are to put it mildly unconvincing when selling their version of what the UK should be - the last one to do so effectively was T. Blair and it didn't end well.
Tony Blair might have been an exceptionalist: This country is a blessed nation. The British are special. The world knows it; in our innermost thoughts, we know it. This is the greatest nation on Earth.
And to seal it, Gavin Williamson said similar a few days ago.
They might even be right, of course. Somewhere has to be the best nation on Earth, and we must be in the running. I can't see how this leads to Brexit though. You could as easily say the British are best so we should be at the heart of Europe; perhaps more easily.
This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
I don't usually have much time for the "you are an expat" argument, but these people at least do not despise their country too much to live there. We here are facing, and you are not, a period of real discomfort and uncertainty and perhaps worse. You are not. That being so, could you just put the whole being a complete prick thing on hold for a month or so? Thanks.
Hello - I didn't realise you owned and moderated the site and decided who could post. Oh and btw all of my income is from the UK to which I pay taxes and also which has been impacted by the fall in the £ as a result of the Brexit uncertainty which I did not vote for. And I am not an 'expat' I am an immigrant in Spain and very content to stay even on a reduced income.
You are an expat.
Your comment yesterday that anyone here stockpiling anything was just worried about fresh tomatoes, hur hur hur, surely qualifies you as a prick. Unless you want to go down the route of claiming to be so stupid and ill-informed that you believed it to be true?
The PCP, however, deserves excoriating for backing the likes of Boris Johnson, a man unfit to be in Cabinet and a proven incompetent, to succeed May.
Not sure about that. We needed someone with electoral appeal to resolve the logjam and defeat Corbyn, whose election would have done many times more damage than even the worst no-deal scenario.
1) Slow-motion drift to confrontational disaster, no deal and no more negotiations confirmed proudly by the government in the next few days, Tories seek to play up the Falklands-style gunboat radical populism.
2) Uncertainty and postponed deadlines, drift through christmas, ad hoc arrangements put in place in January to keep transport and haulier networks running, EU waits for the UK to come to the table.
3) Sudden rabbit-out-of-the-hat act by Johnson in the next few days claiming victory, limited deal agreed.
The swearing in of Biden won't be the end of this - the GOP are too far down the culture wars rabbit hole to come back. The ludicrous thing here is that the Trumpers think that the only way to save the constitution is to trash it. There is no way to argue or reason or persuade them back to reality.
I know that I have half-sarcastically suggested Trump will lead a virtual Confederacy from Mar a Lago. I'm increasingly of the view that this will actually happen. The republic will undoubtedly seek legal actions against Trump and the secessionists and the foamers. And the problem is that there are a sizeable number of heavily armed blackshirts who passionately believe that they are in fact protecting the constitution against the librul enemy.
Unless someone in the GOP with gravitas tells the foamers to sit down and shut up, this really could get nasty.
This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
Why does condemning supine Tory ministers who claim the UK will thrive after a no deal Brexit when they know what harm it will cause equate to despising the country?
As you know my reference was to his attitude to the voters because they have views about their country with which he disagrees. And I believe he is wrong. I do not like Brexit but I do not think tens of millions of voters believe the British are 'much, much better than the rest'. Nor do I think criticising them in this way will help to move things forward any more than that approach helped in 2016. Every day this site is littered with those who bemoan the 'ignorance' of millions who voted for Brexit - often denigrating their provincialism, lack of education etc, etc. Frankly it is not a good look.
Maybe you should spend more time in the UK, Felix. There is undoubtedly a strong strain of exceptionalism here that is perfectly encapsulated by the likes of the Mail, the Telegraph, the Express and the Sun. I do agree it’s not tens of millions of people, though. But it doesn’t need to be.
And maybe you should try hearing ordinary folk elsewhere - the locals in my bit of rural Spain have very robust views on immigrants which are more robust the darker their skin and the emptier their purses. They are fiercely patriotic, resent Madrilenos and yearn still for the peseta. There is much distrust of Brussels not least given the Belgian attitude to their Catalonian exiles. I neither despise them nor agree with all of their views but I think people the world over are remarkably similar - we have to get along regardless.
I am hugely admiring of your ability to understand rural Andalusian Spanish. I just could not have the conversations you do! Your experience of rural Spanish opinion is different to mine, but I have spent a lot more time in other parts of Spain where a return to the use of the peseta rarely comes up. I do listen to people, though. It’s why I knew Leave would win in 2016.
This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
Parris is right though isn`t he. I don`t think that "middle class chatterers" despise their own country - rather, they see equivalence with others.
That translates, for some, as "not patriotic" I agree.
Ahem - try Roger of this parish's comments about those who live in Hartlepool as just one of many examples.
See your point. Sounds like we are both "reluctant remainers". This used to be the majority position I think. The referendum, on reflection, was impossible to win when everything we said was categorised as "Project Fear".
And the irony is that, had the UK government gone for something in the range EEA to May, it would have stuck. Those of us who would have preferred a closer relationship would have been sad, but there would have been no way of building up the pressure to move. Immediate "Project Fear" wouldn't have happened, and the drifting apart would have been gradual but decisive.
The impatience and lust for power of Johnson et al has forced the UK into a much bigger gamble, whose odds don't look good. If I were an obsessive Europhile, I ought to be rubbing my hands in glee. As it is, all I feel is a sad nervousness for my country which I love.
EEA allows free movement - that was never going to fly. If the EU had allowed Cameron an "emergency brake" on free movement, applicable when, for example, a nation`s population density breached as particular level, the referendum result could very well have been different.
Unlikely. The most Brexity areas were not where the immigrants landed. Austerity provides a better fit, or just the sense of social exclusion. Dominic Cummings and Arron Banks for the rival Leave campaigns do both seem to have known that many of their voters' problems were not caused by the EU or Freedom of Movement. There is a reason Boris ran on levelling up Britain, and why a Tory government wants to escape EU constraints on state aid.
1) Slow-motion drift to confrontational disaster, no deal and no more negotiations confirmed proudly by the government in the next few days, Tories seek to play up the Falklands-style gunboat radical populism.
2) Uncertainty and postponed deadlines, drift through christmas, ad hoc arrangements put in place in January to keep transport and haulier networks running, EU waits for the UK to come to the table.
3) Sudden rabbit-out-of-the-hat act by Johnson in the next few days claiming victory, limited deal agreed.
2) looks a good bet to me.
What I have not heard in the press at all, but would clearly be preferable to Jan 1st 2021 no deal, is a delayed no deal with no further negotiations. Implementing it on July 1st 2021 would avoid the logistical problems of Brexit clashing with those of delivering the vaccine and allow both sides to recruit the relevant officials and for businesses to do some preparations.
It is clearly better for all parties, again, that it is not being discussed leads me to believe a deal will happen.
1 Wind up liberal comedians. 2 Got King Boris on the throne. 3 Shown them foreigners who is boss. 4 Fish!!! 5 Sovereignty 6 Errr....
Got out of CAP.
True, that and blue passports and we are getting close to ten.
Point of Order! My dog already has a blue passport, and Brexit is taking it away.
Technically it is not being taken away, it may become invalid and not be replaced but your dog can keep its blue passport.
Technically it is being taken away; what you mean is that physically it is not. I am not sure how that comment is helpful or relevant; having a useless piece of paper is no good to anyone.
This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
Why does condemning supine Tory ministers who claim the UK will thrive after a no deal Brexit when they know what harm it will cause equate to despising the country?
As you know my reference was to his attitude to the voters because they have views about their country with which he disagrees. And I believe he is wrong. I do not like Brexit but I do not think tens of millions of voters believe the British are 'much, much better than the rest'. Nor do I think criticising them in this way will help to move things forward any more than that approach helped in 2016. Every day this site is littered with those who bemoan the 'ignorance' of millions who voted for Brexit - often denigrating their provincialism, lack of education etc, etc. Frankly it is not a good look.
Maybe you should spend more time in the UK, Felix. There is undoubtedly a strong strain of exceptionalism here that is perfectly encapsulated by the likes of the Mail, the Telegraph, the Express and the Sun. I do agree it’s not tens of millions of people, though. But it doesn’t need to be.
And maybe you should try hearing ordinary folk elsewhere - the locals in my bit of rural Spain have very robust views on immigrants which are more robust the darker their skin and the emptier their purses. They are fiercely patriotic, resent Madrilenos and yearn still for the peseta. There is much distrust of Brussels not least given the Belgian attitude to their Catalonian exiles. I neither despise them nor agree with all of their views but I think people the world over are remarkably similar - we have to get along regardless.
I expect they aare not too keen on British immigrants either, Mr Felix..... Just a thought.
1) Slow-motion drift to confrontational disaster, no deal and no more negotiations confirmed proudly by the government in the next few days, Tories seek to play up the Falklands-style gunboat radical populism.
2) Uncertainty and postponed deadlines, drift through christmas, ad hoc arrangements put in place in January to keep transport and haulier networks running, EU waits for the UK to come to the table.
3) Sudden rabbit-out-of-the-hat act by Johnson in the next few days claiming victory, limited deal agreed.
2) looks a good bet to me.
2 feels like a misjudgement by the EU. I just can't see the UK coming back to the table. The risk for the EU is then a large neighbour potentially making moves to cut all manner of rates in an attempt to become competitive.
1 Wind up liberal comedians. 2 Got King Boris on the throne. 3 Shown them foreigners who is boss. 4 Fish!!! 5 Sovereignty 6 Errr....
Got out of CAP.
True, that and blue passports and we are getting close to ten.
Point of Order! My dog already has a blue passport, and Brexit is taking it away.
Technically it is not being taken away, it may become invalid and not be replaced but your dog can keep its blue passport.
Technically it is being taken away; what you mean is that physically it is not. I am not sure how that comment is helpful or relevant; having a useless piece of paper is no good to anyone.
I`m not sure your dog will appreciate the difference.
This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
Why does condemning supine Tory ministers who claim the UK will thrive after a no deal Brexit when they know what harm it will cause equate to despising the country?
As you know my reference was to his attitude to the voters because they have views about their country with which he disagrees. And I believe he is wrong. I do not like Brexit but I do not think tens of millions of voters believe the British are 'much, much better than the rest'. Nor do I think criticising them in this way will help to move things forward any more than that approach helped in 2016. Every day this site is littered with those who bemoan the 'ignorance' of millions who voted for Brexit - often denigrating their provincialism, lack of education etc, etc. Frankly it is not a good look.
Maybe you should spend more time in the UK, Felix. There is undoubtedly a strong strain of exceptionalism here that is perfectly encapsulated by the likes of the Mail, the Telegraph, the Express and the Sun. I do agree it’s not tens of millions of people, though. But it doesn’t need to be.
I neither despise them nor agree with all of their views but I think people the world over are remarkably similar - we have to get along regardless.
I agree. Perhaps we should form some sort of international federation to establish a level playing field, and develop common policies for the challenges of our age.
If it actually is No Deal by design, then I think it's because Tories want to get rid of current level playing field rules. Which might be rather unpopular, as it may affect people's current protections and entitlements. In that light, it makes sense to make the fight about abstract future changes and sovereignty instead, and to string out the charade to the end to maximize support for No Deal.
This is a sertious point beyond Brexit, which also affects the other parties. What are the conditions that we expect of people taking the whip? Is it, as you imply, absolute support or at worst silence on the party line? It never has been up to now so that would substantially narrow the scope of being a party MP.
The unspoken tradition has been that as a backbencher one can disagree with party policy or even vote against it, so long as one doesn't endorse another party or bring the party into disrepute. Ellwood disagrees with specifics of the Brexit policy. Do you feel that the Conservatives should dispense with his support on everything else?
Similarly, Jeremy Hunt has said that he will vote against the Government next week on foreign aid cuts. Should he lose the whip too? Where do you draw the line, exactly?
This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
Does it really have to be pointed out that saying that the UK, like France and Germany, is as an economically-developed democracy, and hence a desirable place to live, is not despising one’s own country?
Not at all but he doesn't say that - nor did the remain campaign. He denigrates the fact that millions of voters have pride in their country and prefer to govern themselves than be governed afar from Europe. I was happy to vote remain but like many am less than fond of the way the EU operates. I have lived in Spain for many years and the attitudes of many Spanish to central government in both Spain and the EU are very similar. It is the way lots of people think. For a multitude of reasons - not least an inept and patronising campaign - the vote in 2016 was lost. We need to move one from blaming 'gullible' voters and dealing with the consequences. The plain fact is that many on the liberal, left centre are to put it mildly unconvincing when selling their version of what the UK should be - the last one to do so effectively was T. Blair and it didn't end well.
Tony Blair might have been an exceptionalist: This country is a blessed nation. The British are special. The world knows it; in our innermost thoughts, we know it. This is the greatest nation on Earth.
And to seal it, Gavin Williamson said similar a few days ago.
They might even be right, of course. Somewhere has to be the best nation on Earth, and we must be in the running. I can't see how this leads to Brexit though. You could as easily say the British are best so we should be at the heart of Europe; perhaps more easily.
That must be the evolutionary purpose of nationalism. Even beat up, economically deprived places with appalling climate and no scenery have people who are proud of where they live.
Also - I'm not sure it's a great testament to the EU to have pushed the UK right along the scale to the hardest of possible Brexits. Yes - it may be what the headbangers want - but that seems a pretty monumental failure tbh.
they manged to lose what should have been an easy win.
OK, what should they have done that they didn't do to convince the Little Englanders that staying in was better than BoZo's sunlit uplands?
To start with could have tried making positive arguments for what was good with the EU. Given some sunlit European uplands.
Simply saying life will be shit under Brexit doesn't work for those of us who aren't afraid of Brexit.
You're right. The list of culprits is long and it certainly includes remainers, like me, who failed to make the case for remaining adequately.
True, though it's hard to win a campaign against "we can have our cake and eat it".
Shouldn't have been. Remain made the mistake of thinking that just because something was effing stupid people wouldn't vote for it, and it was therefore not necessary to point out what was stupid about it.
For undermining the government during negotiations and saying we should give the EU a blank cheque because we must get a deal. Precisely what fools like Hammond, Grieve and co were rightly expelled for.
they manged to lose what should have been an easy win.
OK, what should they have done that they didn't do to convince the Little Englanders that staying in was better than BoZo's sunlit uplands?
To start with could have tried making positive arguments for what was good with the EU. Given some sunlit European uplands.
Simply saying life will be shit under Brexit doesn't work for those of us who aren't afraid of Brexit.
You're right. The list of culprits is long and it certainly includes remainers, like me, who failed to make the case for remaining adequately.
True, though it's hard to win a campaign against "we can have our cake and eat it".
Shouldn't have been. Remain made the mistake of thinking that just because something was effing stupid people wouldn't vote for it, and it was therefore not necessary to point out what was stupid about it.
I don't think that's an accurate observation. Actually they spent too much time pointing out what was stupid about it (some of which was counterproductive as often observed), and too little selling the positives of staying a member.
Also - I'm not sure it's a great testament to the EU to have pushed the UK right along the scale to the hardest of possible Brexits. Yes - it may be what the headbangers want - but that seems a pretty monumental failure tbh.
When you leave a club, the way it is run is no longer any of your business.
This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
I don't usually have much time for the "you are an expat" argument, but these people at least do not despise their country too much to live there. We here are facing, and you are not, a period of real discomfort and uncertainty and perhaps worse. You are not. That being so, could you just put the whole being a complete prick thing on hold for a month or so? Thanks.
Hello - I didn't realise you owned and moderated the site and decided who could post. Oh and btw all of my income is from the UK to which I pay taxes and also which has been impacted by the fall in the £ as a result of the Brexit uncertainty which I did not vote for. And I am not an 'expat' I am an immigrant in Spain and very content to stay even on a reduced income.
You are an expat.
Your comment yesterday that anyone here stockpiling anything was just worried about fresh tomatoes, hur hur hur, surely qualifies you as a prick. Unless you want to go down the route of claiming to be so stupid and ill-informed that you believed it to be true?
He isn't an expat. Thats a word the English use to put themselves above foreigners.
1) Blue passports (though personally I like the burgundy ones); 2) Have to admit I’m struggling now. 3) Err. I give up.
Why is it seen by some as a badge of honour to have such a total lack of intellectual flexibility and political empathy not to see the pros and cons of both sides of an argument?
Stupid question: how would the deal actually be materially different from Norway's situation in the single market but outside the customs union, apart from the lack of free movement?
This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
I don't usually have much time for the "you are an expat" argument, but these people at least do not despise their country too much to live there. We here are facing, and you are not, a period of real discomfort and uncertainty and perhaps worse. You are not. That being so, could you just put the whole being a complete prick thing on hold for a month or so? Thanks.
Hello - I didn't realise you owned and moderated the site and decided who could post. Oh and btw all of my income is from the UK to which I pay taxes and also which has been impacted by the fall in the £ as a result of the Brexit uncertainty which I did not vote for. And I am not an 'expat' I am an immigrant in Spain and very content to stay even on a reduced income.
You are an expat.
Your comment yesterday that anyone here stockpiling anything was just worried about fresh tomatoes, hur hur hur, surely qualifies you as a prick. Unless you want to go down the route of claiming to be so stupid and ill-informed that you believed it to be true?
He isn't an expat. Thats a word the English use to put themselves above foreigners.
He is an immigrant.
Or an economic migrant?
The hierarchy (pace Henning Wehn) is: relief worker - expat - immigrant - economic migrant - refugee
1) Blue passports (though personally I like the burgundy ones); 2) Have to admit I’m struggling now. 3) Err. I give up.
Why is it seen by some as a badge of honour to have such a total lack of intellectual flexibility and political empathy not to see the pros and cons of both sides of an argument?
Also - I'm not sure it's a great testament to the EU to have pushed the UK right along the scale to the hardest of possible Brexits. Yes - it may be what the headbangers want - but that seems a pretty monumental failure tbh.
When you leave a club, the way it is run is no longer any of your business.
I get that - but I'm not sure I see the benefit for the EU or UK.
1) Blue passports (though personally I like the burgundy ones); 2) Have to admit I’m struggling now. 3) Err. I give up.
Why is it seen by some as a badge of honour to have such a total lack of intellectual flexibility and political empathy not to see the pros and cons of both sides of an argument?
OK. Let’s have your list of 10. Go on ...
I am not here to do your thinking for you after five years of increasingly tedious debate on this. Try and engage your brain, put yourself in the shoes of people who have very different lives (without judgement) and see what you come up with. Perhaps you could start with the impact of free movement from lower income countries on non-skilled wages.
The Electoral College session on Monday could be popcorn-worthy. Do the candidates normally turn up to it? Of course, presumably this year it will be by Zoom or similar.
Nope, each slate of electors votes in person (normally at the state capitol). The electors are brought in and they vote with some ceremony. This year they’re meeting up in secret, being driven to the location by state troopers and voting in an abbreviated manner because of Covid according to politico.
Are the votes public or do they get sealed until Congress counts them on January 6?
Is the voting being televised. Or filmed in real time? Just asking
1) Blue passports (though personally I like the burgundy ones); 2) Have to admit I’m struggling now. 3) Err. I give up.
Why is it seen by some as a badge of honour to have such a total lack of intellectual flexibility and political empathy not to see the pros and cons of both sides of an argument?
Completely agree. Similarly, I have never got the criticism of Boris for writing 2 articles about the EU, one pro and one anti. I remember making posts during the referendum campaign setting out the arguments for being in the EU even although I favoured leaving.
The other guilty politicians. The Congress and state supporters of Trump's myriad desperate lawsuits, and the MPs who voted for a Brexit they believe will harm this country.
Whatever you think about Peter Bone or Bill Cash, at least they've given the matter some thought. They might be deluded, they probably are wrong but they do believe what they say about Brexit. Hand on heart, can you say the same about Boris?
'Course you can't. Otherwise why would he keep going the way he does? He's desperately trying to convince himself!
1) Blue passports (though personally I like the burgundy ones); 2) Have to admit I’m struggling now. 3) Err. I give up.
Why is it seen by some as a badge of honour to have such a total lack of intellectual flexibility and political empathy not to see the pros and cons of both sides of an argument?
OK. Let’s have your list of 10. Go on ...
I am not here to do your thinking for you after five years of increasingly tedious debate on this. Try and engage your brain, put yourself in the shoes of people who have very different lives (without judgement) and see what you come up with. Perhaps you could start with the impact of free movement from lower income countries on non-skilled wages.
OK. I’ll be generous and view your last sentence as reason 1). Against it, I would argue that ending FOM will make it more difficult for a lot of businesses that employ British people as well to continue functioning, but I can see that there is at least an argument to be had. Could we now have reasons 2-10 please.
they manged to lose what should have been an easy win.
OK, what should they have done that they didn't do to convince the Little Englanders that staying in was better than BoZo's sunlit uplands?
To start with could have tried making positive arguments for what was good with the EU. Given some sunlit European uplands.
Simply saying life will be shit under Brexit doesn't work for those of us who aren't afraid of Brexit.
But the Tories - who took charge of the Remain campaign - are good only at negative campaigning.
Boris isn't. You may think he's talking crap some/most of the time but he is a very positive campaigner. Its partly why he won London, the referendum, the leadership, the election...
they manged to lose what should have been an easy win.
OK, what should they have done that they didn't do to convince the Little Englanders that staying in was better than BoZo's sunlit uplands?
To start with could have tried making positive arguments for what was good with the EU. Given some sunlit European uplands.
Simply saying life will be shit under Brexit doesn't work for those of us who aren't afraid of Brexit.
You're right. The list of culprits is long and it certainly includes remainers, like me, who failed to make the case for remaining adequately.
True, though it's hard to win a campaign against "we can have our cake and eat it".
Shouldn't have been. Remain made the mistake of thinking that just because something was effing stupid people wouldn't vote for it, and it was therefore not necessary to point out what was stupid about it.
No, and I was very critical of the Remain campaign at the time, we spent a lot of time pointing out the stupidity of Brexit. What we did not do was point out the wisdom and good sense of remaining at the heart of Europe. The campaign was far too negative.
The year after the Syrian migration crisis was what swung it, with a lot of people expecting a further mass refugee crisis that Spring and Summer*. I think Remain would have won if the referendum was held in 2017.
*indeed that was why Cameron's renegotiation was so perfunctory. The rest of the EU were trying to ensure no repeat, and a common policy, not deal with our Faragists.
they manged to lose what should have been an easy win.
OK, what should they have done that they didn't do to convince the Little Englanders that staying in was better than BoZo's sunlit uplands?
To start with could have tried making positive arguments for what was good with the EU. Given some sunlit European uplands.
Simply saying life will be shit under Brexit doesn't work for those of us who aren't afraid of Brexit.
But the Tories - who took charge of the Remain campaign - are good only at negative campaigning.
Boris isn't. You may think he's talking crap some/most of the time but he is a very positive campaigner. Its partly why he won London, the referendum, the leadership, the election...
1) Slow-motion drift to confrontational disaster, no deal and no more negotiations confirmed proudly by the government in the next few days, Tories seek to play up the Falklands-style gunboat radical populism.
2) Uncertainty and postponed deadlines, drift through christmas, ad hoc arrangements put in place in January to keep transport and haulier networks running, EU waits for the UK to come to the table.
3) Sudden rabbit-out-of-the-hat act by Johnson in the next few days claiming victory, limited deal agreed.
2) looks a good bet to me.
2 feels like a misjudgement by the EU. I just can't see the UK coming back to the table. The risk for the EU is then a large neighbour potentially making moves to cut all manner of rates in an attempt to become competitive.
1) Blue passports (though personally I like the burgundy ones); 2) Have to admit I’m struggling now. 3) Err. I give up.
Why is it seen by some as a badge of honour to have such a total lack of intellectual flexibility and political empathy not to see the pros and cons of both sides of an argument?
Completely agree. Similarly, I have never got the criticism of Boris for writing 2 articles about the EU, one pro and one anti. I remember making posts during the referendum campaign setting out the arguments for being in the EU even although I favoured leaving.
Anyone on either side that did not think it was a nuanced call probably didn’t think about it very hard.
I’m fine with that for people who just lives their lives and see politics as noise. But when you’ve bothered to setup a profile to post on a political Internet forum or consider yourself a Twitter thought leader, isn’t it a touch embarrassing and egotistical to brag that you can’t see any angle to a political (and economic) issue apart from your own?
Ps That Men in Black summary is great and helps explain why no one paid attention to the NY Times story this year about “ off-world vehicles not made on this earth” and the US Navy video releases.
Tomorrow will be a year and a day since Boris won his election.
You might need to dust off a less positive image for next year's anniversary. Although, personally speaking, you might have pressed the wrong image this time around.
I dunno - feels like we're conducting the whole tone of brexit the same way we did 4 years ago. Like - not a single lesson has been learned at all. Nada.
This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
I don't usually have much time for the "you are an expat" argument, but these people at least do not despise their country too much to live there. We here are facing, and you are not, a period of real discomfort and uncertainty and perhaps worse. You are not. That being so, could you just put the whole being a complete prick thing on hold for a month or so? Thanks.
Hello - I didn't realise you owned and moderated the site and decided who could post. Oh and btw all of my income is from the UK to which I pay taxes and also which has been impacted by the fall in the £ as a result of the Brexit uncertainty which I did not vote for. And I am not an 'expat' I am an immigrant in Spain and very content to stay even on a reduced income.
You are an expat.
Your comment yesterday that anyone here stockpiling anything was just worried about fresh tomatoes, hur hur hur, surely qualifies you as a prick. Unless you want to go down the route of claiming to be so stupid and ill-informed that you believed it to be true?
Maybe try expanding your vocabulary a bit - the endless repetition about appendages suggests you may have a complex. Not a good look.
The PCP, however, deserves excoriating for backing the likes of Boris Johnson, a man unfit to be in Cabinet and a proven incompetent, to succeed May.
Not sure about that. We needed someone with electoral appeal to resolve the logjam and defeat Corbyn, whose election would have done many times more damage than even the worst no-deal scenario.
they manged to lose what should have been an easy win.
OK, what should they have done that they didn't do to convince the Little Englanders that staying in was better than BoZo's sunlit uplands?
To start with could have tried making positive arguments for what was good with the EU. Given some sunlit European uplands.
Simply saying life will be shit under Brexit doesn't work for those of us who aren't afraid of Brexit.
But the Tories - who took charge of the Remain campaign - are good only at negative campaigning.
Firstly it is a pathetic excuse to say the Tories took charge of the Remain campaign. Why did others allow that? Why did others not form a different campaign? Boris, Gove etc took charge of the Vote Leave campaign did Farage let them stop him from campaigning or did he fight his own campaign?
Secondly what is all the talk about sunlit uplands if not Tories making a positive case of how the future could be?
This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
Why does condemning supine Tory ministers who claim the UK will thrive after a no deal Brexit when they know what harm it will cause equate to despising the country?
As you know my reference was to his attitude to the voters because they have views about their country with which he disagrees. And I believe he is wrong. I do not like Brexit but I do not think tens of millions of voters believe the British are 'much, much better than the rest'. Nor do I think criticising them in this way will help to move things forward any more than that approach helped in 2016. Every day this site is littered with those who bemoan the 'ignorance' of millions who voted for Brexit - often denigrating their provincialism, lack of education etc, etc. Frankly it is not a good look.
Maybe you should spend more time in the UK, Felix. There is undoubtedly a strong strain of exceptionalism here that is perfectly encapsulated by the likes of the Mail, the Telegraph, the Express and the Sun. I do agree it’s not tens of millions of people, though. But it doesn’t need to be.
And maybe you should try hearing ordinary folk elsewhere - the locals in my bit of rural Spain have very robust views on immigrants which are more robust the darker their skin and the emptier their purses. They are fiercely patriotic, resent Madrilenos and yearn still for the peseta. There is much distrust of Brussels not least given the Belgian attitude to their Catalonian exiles. I neither despise them nor agree with all of their views but I think people the world over are remarkably similar - we have to get along regardless.
I expect they aare not too keen on British immigrants either, Mr Felix..... Just a thought.
On the whole they have been content to take my hard earned cash - especially given my efforts to learn the language and adopt the culture. But yes indigenous folk the world over have concerns, suspicions and worries about immigrants. Who knew?
Tomorrow will be a year and a day since Boris won his election.
You might need to dust off a less positive image for next year's anniversary. Although, personally speaking, you might have pressed the wrong image this time around.
The PCP, however, deserves excoriating for backing the likes of Boris Johnson, a man unfit to be in Cabinet and a proven incompetent, to succeed May.
Not sure about that. We needed someone with electoral appeal to resolve the logjam and defeat Corbyn, whose election would have done many times more damage than even the worst no-deal scenario.
You really certain about that last clause?
Well, he’s right. Corbyn had absolutely every single one of Johnson’s faults - cronyism, pseudo-principles, arrogance, a sense of his own brilliance, an inability to deal with criticism or talk to those he disagrees with - and is a great deal stupider.
Edit - and his shadow cabinet were no better. The only ones in it with decent brains were Macdonnell, who is an even bigger knob than Corbyn, Starmer and Rayner.
The PCP, however, deserves excoriating for backing the likes of Boris Johnson, a man unfit to be in Cabinet and a proven incompetent, to succeed May.
Not sure about that. We needed someone with electoral appeal to resolve the logjam and defeat Corbyn, whose election would have done many times more damage than even the worst no-deal scenario.
You really certain about that last clause?
Well, he’s right. Corbyn had absolutely every single one of Johnson’s faults - cronyism, pseudo-principles, arrogance, a sense of his own brilliance, an inability to deal with criticism or talk to those he disagrees with - and is a great deal stupider.
On the other hand, he doesn't demonstrate the sociopathy to other people at an emotional level that Johnson sometimes demonstrates.
The PCP, however, deserves excoriating for backing the likes of Boris Johnson, a man unfit to be in Cabinet and a proven incompetent, to succeed May.
Not sure about that. We needed someone with electoral appeal to resolve the logjam and defeat Corbyn, whose election would have done many times more damage than even the worst no-deal scenario.
You really certain about that last clause?
Well, he’s right. Corbyn had absolutely every single one of Johnson’s faults - cronyism, pseudo-principles, arrogance, a sense of his own brilliance, an inability to deal with criticism or talk to those he disagrees with - and is a great deal stupider.
On the other hand, he doesn't demonstrate the sociopathy to other people at an emotional level that Johnson sometimes demonstrates.
Even if that were relevant - which it isn’t, given Churchill and Lloyd George both had the same fault - I’m not sure I agree. He treated his wives just as badly as Johnson did - arguably, worse, because Johnson never made his family bankrupt and homeless AFAIK.
Tomorrow will be a year and a day since Boris won his election.
You might need to dust off a less positive image for next year's anniversary. Although, personally speaking, you might have pressed the wrong image this time around.
Stadtluft macht frei Look it up.
I don't need to. Who's equality and freedom are we talking about?
they manged to lose what should have been an easy win.
OK, what should they have done that they didn't do to convince the Little Englanders that staying in was better than BoZo's sunlit uplands?
To start with could have tried making positive arguments for what was good with the EU. Given some sunlit European uplands.
Simply saying life will be shit under Brexit doesn't work for those of us who aren't afraid of Brexit.
But the Tories - who took charge of the Remain campaign - are good only at negative campaigning.
Boris isn't. You may think he's talking crap some/most of the time but he is a very positive campaigner. Its partly why he won London, the referendum, the leadership, the election...
Yes Boris is a seducer, always promising wonderful things, just incompetent at actually delivering anything. He is a snake oil salesman, but a very effective one.
1) Blue passports (though personally I like the burgundy ones); 2) Have to admit I’m struggling now. 3) Err. I give up.
Why is it seen by some as a badge of honour to have such a total lack of intellectual flexibility and political empathy not to see the pros and cons of both sides of an argument?
OK. Let’s have your list of 10. Go on ...
I am not here to do your thinking for you after five years of increasingly tedious debate on this. Try and engage your brain, put yourself in the shoes of people who have very different lives (without judgement) and see what you come up with. Perhaps you could start with the impact of free movement from lower income countries on non-skilled wages.
OK. I’ll be generous and view your last sentence as reason 1). Against it, I would argue that ending FOM will make it more difficult for a lot of businesses that employ British people as well to continue functioning, but I can see that there is at least an argument to be had. Could we now have reasons 2-10 please.
I think you’ve proven pretty conclusively that indeed you lack the qualities I mentioned. Did you never write an essay or take a side in a debate that was contrary to your own held belief? It’s a useful exercise. You should try it without prejudice. On an issue such as this it may even make you a more pleasant person to the half of people who disagree with you.
Without giving it a huge amount of thought or analysis here's my starter for 10:
1. Democratic accountability. Our politicians have used the EU to do things they couldn't sell at home. 2. Control of our own laws. Having laws imposed on this country by QMV is unacceptable. 3. Laws and policies that are applicable to our situation here in the UK. 4. For example we can spend our money on agricultural/conservation policies relevant to what we do here, not what is needed around the Med. 5. Control of migration. Although there were economic benefits to cheap labour being imported and under cutting wages and Trade Unions there was a heavy price to pay in social costs and cohesion. 6. Control of our own resources, eg fish. 7. The ability to make long term state led investments in the industries of the future (subject to any LPF agreement) if we think that desirable. 8. Control of our money, as a net contributor to the EU we were not able to determine where our taxpayers contributions went. 9. The lack of a platform for the likes of Farage. Seriously, the European Parliament is a joke of an institution and our contribution has been one of the less funny parts. 10. The requirement for our political class to focus on the day job, not spending/wasting their time at Council of Ministers meetings.
You might argue that there is some duplication and overlap here. I wouldn't disagree. Boris's "control of our laws, control of our borders and control of our money" sums it up better in many respects.
The PCP, however, deserves excoriating for backing the likes of Boris Johnson, a man unfit to be in Cabinet and a proven incompetent, to succeed May.
Not sure about that. We needed someone with electoral appeal to resolve the logjam and defeat Corbyn, whose election would have done many times more damage than even the worst no-deal scenario.
You really certain about that last clause?
Well, he’s right. Corbyn had absolutely every single one of Johnson’s faults - cronyism, pseudo-principles, arrogance, a sense of his own brilliance, an inability to deal with criticism or talk to those he disagrees with - and is a great deal stupider.
On the other hand, he doesn't demonstrate the sociopathy to other people at an emotional level that Johnson sometimes demonstrates.
Even if that were relevant - which it isn’t, given Churchill and Lloyd George both had the same fault - I’m not sure I agree. He treated his wives just as badly as Johnson did - arguably, worse, because Johnson never made his family bankrupt and homeless AFAIK.
I can't agree with that. Johnson has demonstrated sociopathy from his teenage years, after the trauma of absent parenting and a peripatetic childhood, through the whole of the rest of his life.
The PCP, however, deserves excoriating for backing the likes of Boris Johnson, a man unfit to be in Cabinet and a proven incompetent, to succeed May.
Not sure about that. We needed someone with electoral appeal to resolve the logjam and defeat Corbyn, whose election would have done many times more damage than even the worst no-deal scenario.
You really certain about that last clause?
Well, he’s right. Corbyn had absolutely every single one of Johnson’s faults - cronyism, pseudo-principles, arrogance, a sense of his own brilliance, an inability to deal with criticism or talk to those he disagrees with - and is a great deal stupider.
On the other hand, he doesn't demonstrate the sociopathy to other people at an emotional level that Johnson sometimes demonstrates.
Even if that were relevant - which it isn’t, given Churchill and Lloyd George both had the same fault - I’m not sure I agree. He treated his wives just as badly as Johnson did - arguably, worse, because Johnson never made his family bankrupt and homeless AFAIK.
I can't agree with that. Johnson has demonstrated sociopathy from his teenage years, after the trauma of absent parenting and a peripatetic childhood, through the whole of the rest of his life.
Undoubtedly. But so has Corbyn, albeit for rather different reasons.
This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
Why does condemning supine Tory ministers who claim the UK will thrive after a no deal Brexit when they know what harm it will cause equate to despising the country?
As you know my reference was to his attitude to the voters because they have views about their country with which he disagrees. And I believe he is wrong. I do not like Brexit but I do not think tens of millions of voters believe the British are 'much, much better than the rest'. Nor do I think criticising them in this way will help to move things forward any more than that approach helped in 2016. Every day this site is littered with those who bemoan the 'ignorance' of millions who voted for Brexit - often denigrating their provincialism, lack of education etc, etc. Frankly it is not a good look.
Maybe you should spend more time in the UK, Felix. There is undoubtedly a strong strain of exceptionalism here that is perfectly encapsulated by the likes of the Mail, the Telegraph, the Express and the Sun. I do agree it’s not tens of millions of people, though. But it doesn’t need to be.
I neither despise them nor agree with all of their views but I think people the world over are remarkably similar - we have to get along regardless.
I agree. Perhaps we should form some sort of international federation to establish a level playing field, and develop common policies for the challenges of our age.
🤔
All it needs to do is to win hearts and minds first - clearly it has failed in the UK, is having limited success in eastern Europe. It polls well of course handing out dosh to poor people tends to poll well although the dutch and some others in northern Europe are not entirely sanguine about it. Many of the Spanish I encounter like the EU - many view it with suspicion. It is a flawed masterpiece. But you seem determined to avoid what happened in 2016 and subsequently in General elections. The normal EU formula is to keep voting until they get the result required - the one more heave approach so enamoured of the left-wing of the Labour party.
If it actually is No Deal by design, then I think it's because Tories want to get rid of current level playing field rules. Which might be rather unpopular, as it may affect people's current protections and entitlements. In that light, it makes sense to make the fight about abstract future changes and sovereignty instead, and to string out the charade to the end to maximize support for No Deal.
My working assumption is that the desired Tory endpoint is the workhouse. If you start with that assumption then most of what they do makes sense. With the notable exception of Big G who is a one nation Tory, what most Tory posters say on here (eg on food banks, deserving vs undeserving poor, tax cuts and the NHS) validates that assumption.
The PCP, however, deserves excoriating for backing the likes of Boris Johnson, a man unfit to be in Cabinet and a proven incompetent, to succeed May.
Not sure about that. We needed someone with electoral appeal to resolve the logjam and defeat Corbyn, whose election would have done many times more damage than even the worst no-deal scenario.
You really certain about that last clause?
Well, he’s right. Corbyn had absolutely every single one of Johnson’s faults - cronyism, pseudo-principles, arrogance, a sense of his own brilliance, an inability to deal with criticism or talk to those he disagrees with - and is a great deal stupider.
On the other hand, he doesn't demonstrate the sociopathy to other people at an emotional level that Johnson sometimes demonstrates.
Even if that were relevant - which it isn’t, given Churchill and Lloyd George both had the same fault - I’m not sure I agree. He treated his wives just as badly as Johnson did - arguably, worse, because Johnson never made his family bankrupt and homeless AFAIK.
I can't agree with that. Johnson has demonstrated sociopathy from his teenage years, after the trauma of absent parenting and a peripatetic childhood, through the whole of the rest of his life.
Undoubtedly. But so has Corbyn, albeit for rather different reasons.
Again, we'll have to agree to differ. I don't think Corbyn has demonstrated that to anything like the same extent.
The swearing in of Biden won't be the end of this - the GOP are too far down the culture wars rabbit hole to come back. The ludicrous thing here is that the Trumpers think that the only way to save the constitution is to trash it. There is no way to argue or reason or persuade them back to reality.
I know that I have half-sarcastically suggested Trump will lead a virtual Confederacy from Mar a Lago. I'm increasingly of the view that this will actually happen. The republic will undoubtedly seek legal actions against Trump and the secessionists and the foamers. And the problem is that there are a sizeable number of heavily armed blackshirts who passionately believe that they are in fact protecting the constitution against the librul enemy.
Unless someone in the GOP with gravitas tells the foamers to sit down and shut up, this really could get nasty.
So by late next Spring both Boris and Biden may be battling the nationalist secessionists of Sturgeonites or Trumpites respectively
Tomorrow will be a year and a day since Boris won his election.
You might need to dust off a less positive image for next year's anniversary. Although, personally speaking, you might have pressed the wrong image this time around.
Stadtluft macht frei Look it up.
I don't need to. Who's equality and freedom are we talking about?
Why, the owl and the pussycat of course. They sailed away / For a year and a day / To the land where the bong tree grows ..
1) Blue passports (though personally I like the burgundy ones); 2) Have to admit I’m struggling now. 3) Err. I give up.
Why is it seen by some as a badge of honour to have such a total lack of intellectual flexibility and political empathy not to see the pros and cons of both sides of an argument?
OK. Let’s have your list of 10. Go on ...
I am not here to do your thinking for you after five years of increasingly tedious debate on this. Try and engage your brain, put yourself in the shoes of people who have very different lives (without judgement) and see what you come up with. Perhaps you could start with the impact of free movement from lower income countries on non-skilled wages.
OK. I’ll be generous and view your last sentence as reason 1). Against it, I would argue that ending FOM will make it more difficult for a lot of businesses that employ British people as well to continue functioning, but I can see that there is at least an argument to be had. Could we now have reasons 2-10 please.
I think you’ve proven pretty conclusively that indeed you lack the qualities I mentioned. Did you never write an essay or take a side in a debate that was contrary to your own held belief? It’s a useful exercise. You should try it without prejudice. On an issue such as this it may even make you a more pleasant person to the half of people who disagree with you.
This is just irrelevant guff. The point is that we remainers can see the cons clearly enough. It’s the pros we’re having difficulty with. Credit to DavidL, he’s had a go. All I’m asking for is your list of 10.
This. Bozo never expected, as 2020 draws to a close, to be in negative territory on favourability polling and bottom (save for Gavin Williamson) of the ConHome ministerial popularity stakes, his credibility with a majority of the population already blown, openly criticised by very many of his backbenchers, widely exposed as both dishonest and incompetent.
His lack of capital with his own MPs is a critical reason why he feels unable to do the necessary right now. Sadly for him, and for us, the consequences of ducking the right decision now will be worse down the road.
This thread so far poses more questions than it answers.
Does Boris really believe in Brexit?
The rest of the Parris article provides the answer.
BoZo tapped into English exceptionalism to win. The Little Englanders voted for him, and he is intent on keeping them onside. Pike's comments about the vaccine illustrate this sentiment is alive and well among the Brexiteers in cabinet.
It was English exceptionalism that made Johnson’s career as a Brussels-bashing newspaper columnist. He saw early what so many on my side of the argument have been slow to understand. Tens of millions of people in Britain really believe that we British are much, much better than the rest and that, since the Second World War, history has been selling us short. They have persuaded themselves that it is the European Union that has shackled us and that, unbound, we shall leap.
Quel surprise - Matthew Parris continues to peddle the same arguments which lost the referendum 4 years ago - based on blaming the voters for not despising their own country like all right thinking middle class chatterers.
I don't usually have much time for the "you are an expat" argument, but these people at least do not despise their country too much to live there. We here are facing, and you are not, a period of real discomfort and uncertainty and perhaps worse. You are not. That being so, could you just put the whole being a complete prick thing on hold for a month or so? Thanks.
Hello - I didn't realise you owned and moderated the site and decided who could post. Oh and btw all of my income is from the UK to which I pay taxes and also which has been impacted by the fall in the £ as a result of the Brexit uncertainty which I did not vote for. And I am not an 'expat' I am an immigrant in Spain and very content to stay even on a reduced income.
You are an expat.
Your comment yesterday that anyone here stockpiling anything was just worried about fresh tomatoes, hur hur hur, surely qualifies you as a prick. Unless you want to go down the route of claiming to be so stupid and ill-informed that you believed it to be true?
He isn't an expat. Thats a word the English use to put themselves above foreigners.
He is an immigrant.
As I made very clear. I have many faults - putting myself above foreigners is fortunately not one of them.
People talk about English or British exceptionalism but really what they are doing is betraying European exceptionalism.
In North America there are multiple countries side by side not feeling a need to join together in a federation. In South America there are multiple countries side by side not feeling a need to join together in a federation. In Asia there are multiple countries side by side not feeling a need to join together in a federation. Oceania lacks side by side countries but New Zealand doesn't feel a need to join Australia's federation.
What makes Europe so unique, so exceptional that the UK or England being a sovereign country outside a European federation is a terrible idea? What small minded European exceptionalism justifies that.
English or British sovereignty on a global scale is just acting as normal countries do. Europe is the exception not the rule.
Without giving it a huge amount of thought or analysis here's my starter for 10:
1. Democratic accountability. Our politicians have used the EU to do things they couldn't sell at home. 2. Control of our own laws. Having laws imposed on this country by QMV is unacceptable. 3. Laws and policies that are applicable to our situation here in the UK. 4. For example we can spend our money on agricultural/conservation policies relevant to what we do here, not what is needed around the Med. 5. Control of migration. Although there were economic benefits to cheap labour being imported and under cutting wages and Trade Unions there was a heavy price to pay in social costs and cohesion. 6. Control of our own resources, eg fish. 7. The ability to make long term state led investments in the industries of the future (subject to any LPF agreement) if we think that desirable. 8. Control of our money, as a net contributor to the EU we were not able to determine where our taxpayers contributions went. 9. The lack of a platform for the likes of Farage. Seriously, the European Parliament is a joke of an institution and our contribution has been one of the less funny parts. 10. The requirement for our political class to focus on the day job, not spending/wasting their time at Council of Ministers meetings.
You might argue that there is some duplication and overlap here. I wouldn't disagree. Boris's "control of our laws, control of our borders and control of our money" sums it up better in many respects.
We`ve been beavering away similarly.
I had to dig deep but here goes;
1. Control of our borders means we have more control on our population size 2. Saving to the Exchequer 3. Ability to diverge from EU regulations in various areas 4. Jumping off a project which is heading in the direction of a homogeneous super-state 5. Easier to retain national identity 6. Retaining our own currency is assured 7. Removing corporate ability to fill new jobs from EU workers 8. Better chance of decent wages for lower paid British workers in industries which were vulnerable to the above 9. Ability to enter into trade deals with other countries without there needed into be a EU-wide deal 10. Removing the ability for laws to be made outside of our elected parliament
Comments
The impatience and lust for power of Johnson et al has forced the UK into a much bigger gamble, whose odds don't look good. If I were an obsessive Europhile, I ought to be rubbing my hands in glee. As it is, all I feel is a sad nervousness for my country which I love.
At that time we supported freedom of the seas, and the right for British trawlers to fish where they had been doing so for centuries.
Fishermen have been quite adventurous over the centuries, with Europeans fishing Newfoundland significantly from the early 16th Century.
Incidentally the popular song intended to whip up support for taking on the Russians in the 1870s, which gave rise to the term 'jingoism', ran as follows:
"We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do"
"We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too"
The second line might need a bit of copyediting in view of our lack thereof.
1) Slow-motion drift to confrontational disaster, no deal and no more negotiations confirmed proudly by the government in the next few days, Tories seek to play up the Falklands-style gunboat radical populism.
2) Uncertainty and postponed deadlines, drift through christmas, ad hoc arrangements put in place in January to keep transport and haulier networks running, EU waits for the UK to come to the table.
3) Sudden rabbit-out-of-the-hat act by Johnson in the next few days claiming victory, limited deal agreed.
* Looks like we are still giving farmers the same subsidy throughout this parliament....
Your comment yesterday that anyone here stockpiling anything was just worried about fresh tomatoes, hur hur hur, surely qualifies you as a prick. Unless you want to go down the route of claiming to be so stupid and ill-informed that you believed it to be true?
I know that I have half-sarcastically suggested Trump will lead a virtual Confederacy from Mar a Lago. I'm increasingly of the view that this will actually happen. The republic will undoubtedly seek legal actions against Trump and the secessionists and the foamers. And the problem is that there are a sizeable number of heavily armed blackshirts who passionately believe that they are in fact protecting the constitution against the librul enemy.
Unless someone in the GOP with gravitas tells the foamers to sit down and shut up, this really could get nasty.
It is clearly better for all parties, again, that it is not being discussed leads me to believe a deal will happen.
🤔
The unspoken tradition has been that as a backbencher one can disagree with party policy or even vote against it, so long as one doesn't endorse another party or bring the party into disrepute. Ellwood disagrees with specifics of the Brexit policy. Do you feel that the Conservatives should dispense with his support on everything else?
Similarly, Jeremy Hunt has said that he will vote against the Government next week on foreign aid cuts. Should he lose the whip too? Where do you draw the line, exactly?
To the extent that FPTP works, it is by having broad tent parties. Impose such strict ideological purity onto them and it becomes an absurdity.
He is an immigrant.
The hierarchy (pace Henning Wehn) is: relief worker - expat - immigrant - economic migrant - refugee
MIB probably said it best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwzrhuC4dXg
The year after the Syrian migration crisis was what swung it, with a lot of people expecting a further mass refugee crisis that Spring and Summer*. I think Remain would have won if the referendum was held in 2017.
*indeed that was why Cameron's renegotiation was so perfunctory. The rest of the EU were trying to ensure no repeat, and a common policy, not deal with our Faragists.
Win, win.
I’m fine with that for people who just lives their lives and see politics as noise. But when you’ve bothered to setup a profile to post on a political Internet forum or consider yourself a Twitter thought leader, isn’t it a touch embarrassing and egotistical to brag that you can’t see any angle to a political (and economic) issue apart from your own?
Ps
That Men in Black summary is great and helps explain why no one paid attention to the NY Times story this year about “ off-world vehicles not made on this earth” and the US Navy video releases.
Secondly what is all the talk about sunlit uplands if not Tories making a positive case of how the future could be?
Look it up.
Edit - and his shadow cabinet were no better. The only ones in it with decent brains were Macdonnell, who is an even bigger knob than Corbyn, Starmer and Rayner.
https://twitter.com/marshallmanson/status/1337677901911773184
1. Democratic accountability. Our politicians have used the EU to do things they couldn't sell at home.
2. Control of our own laws. Having laws imposed on this country by QMV is unacceptable.
3. Laws and policies that are applicable to our situation here in the UK.
4. For example we can spend our money on agricultural/conservation policies relevant to what we do here, not what is needed around the Med.
5. Control of migration. Although there were economic benefits to cheap labour being imported and under cutting wages and Trade Unions there was a heavy price to pay in social costs and cohesion.
6. Control of our own resources, eg fish.
7. The ability to make long term state led investments in the industries of the future (subject to any LPF agreement) if we think that desirable.
8. Control of our money, as a net contributor to the EU we were not able to determine where our taxpayers contributions went.
9. The lack of a platform for the likes of Farage. Seriously, the European Parliament is a joke of an institution and our contribution has been one of the less funny parts.
10. The requirement for our political class to focus on the day job, not spending/wasting their time at Council of Ministers meetings.
You might argue that there is some duplication and overlap here. I wouldn't disagree. Boris's "control of our laws, control of our borders and control of our money" sums it up better in many respects.
They sailed away / For a year and a day / To the land where the bong tree grows ..
His lack of capital with his own MPs is a critical reason why he feels unable to do the necessary right now. Sadly for him, and for us, the consequences of ducking the right decision now will be worse down the road.
In North America there are multiple countries side by side not feeling a need to join together in a federation.
In South America there are multiple countries side by side not feeling a need to join together in a federation.
In Asia there are multiple countries side by side not feeling a need to join together in a federation.
Oceania lacks side by side countries but New Zealand doesn't feel a need to join Australia's federation.
What makes Europe so unique, so exceptional that the UK or England being a sovereign country outside a European federation is a terrible idea? What small minded European exceptionalism justifies that.
English or British sovereignty on a global scale is just acting as normal countries do. Europe is the exception not the rule.
I had to dig deep but here goes;
1. Control of our borders means we have more control on our population size
2. Saving to the Exchequer
3. Ability to diverge from EU regulations in various areas
4. Jumping off a project which is heading in the direction of a homogeneous super-state
5. Easier to retain national identity
6. Retaining our own currency is assured
7. Removing corporate ability to fill new jobs from EU workers
8. Better chance of decent wages for lower paid British workers in industries which were vulnerable to the above
9. Ability to enter into trade deals with other countries without there needed into be a EU-wide deal
10. Removing the ability for laws to be made outside of our elected parliament
(And I didn`t need to mention fish, so I win.)