Labour’s challenge with antisemitism – Corbyn gets his membership back and the problem remains – pol

System · November 2020

Labour’s challenge with antisemitism – Corbyn gets his membership back and the problem remains – politicalbetting.com

Labour's NEC decide to stuff Starmer and lose the next election https://t.co/jm4Ynh4PWl

Read the full story here

Roger · November 2020

Another opportunity for Starmer to look strong. Never seems to be very damaging to Labour leaders. Though I'm really bored of Corbyn. I wish he'd just piss off.

Richard_Nabavi · November 2020

Roger said:
Another opportunity for Starmer to look strong. Never sees to be very damaging to Labour leaders.

.. except that he looks weak. Maybe not his fault, to be fair, but damaging all the same.

gealbhan · November 2020

Is the boring small print that Starmer was over ruled by NEC? 😕. Only seems a few days ago his comfortable NEC majority was being hailed.

The truth is, Labours base for an election winning coalition is going to be too broad to win in modern social media age, they will never shake this extremism tag off.

Philip_Thompson · November 2020

Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.

FrancisUrquhart · November 2020

The Jewish Labour Movement called the decision to readmit Mr Corbyn "extraordinary", adding: "After his failure of leadership to tackle anti-Semitism, so clearly set out in the EHRC's report, any reasonable and fair-minded observer would see Jeremy Corbyn's statement today as insincere and wholly inadequate."

Karen Pollock, chief executive of the Holocaust Educational Trust, said: "What message does this send? Zero tolerance either means zero tolerance or it's meaningless."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-54976558

MikeL · November 2020

FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?

This is why people are backing Trump at 19.

The whole election process is so convoluted with numerous different people involved having to go through numerous different processes. And with so many of these people highly partisan there is simply no way of knowing what might happen.

It doesn't matter how far fetched Trump's claims are - if partisan Republicans put up every conceivable barrier to finalising the result then in a country as crazy as the USA literally anything is possible.

Anabobazina · November 2020

Ridiculous. What’s the balance of power on the NEC? My (clearly wrong) understanding was that there was a moderate majority on it now. Long, long way to go before the party is fit for purpose I fear.

dixiedean · November 2020

Labour lost the next election?
Thanks OGH. I'll lay them for the next 4 years and won't have to work.
Cheers!

gealbhan · November 2020

Richard_Nabavi said:

Roger said:
Another opportunity for Starmer to look strong. Never sees to be very damaging to Labour leaders.
.. except that he looks weak. Maybe not his fault, to be fair, but damaging all the same.

Absolutely right. Joe Public aren’t going to see Corbyn in sack and ashes, nor know it was party committee procedural once Jez jumped through the hoop set him, they will know this as flip flop Starmer weak on anti semiticm.

Jez knows that, so do his supporters on the NEC with the big grins on their faces tonight.

dixiedean · November 2020

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.

What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?

isam · November 2020

Sir Keir’s done a U-turn that’s put a smile on a North London cyclists face rather than put them in hospital!

Philip_Thompson · November 2020

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?

Yes. Show some f###ing leadership.

Maybe he can borrow some 🥜s from Carrie?

bigjohnowls · November 2020

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?
Yes. Show some f###ing leadership.

Maybe he can borrow some 🥜s from Carrie?

EHRC says no

dixiedean · November 2020

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?
Yes. Show some f###ing leadership.

Maybe he can borrow some 🥜s from Carrie?

And how would he do that? Labour is not, never has been, nor should it be, the personal plaything of the leadership.
I suppose he could unilaterally abolish the NEC.
That's what Boris would do.
Edit. And I forgot expel them all.

gealbhan · November 2020

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?

The other galling thing for Labour supporters, looking at all the front pages the Chumocracy narrative was just beginning to gain traction, until big headlines next few days became flip flop Starmer weak on anti semiticsm, Labour still unelectable.

Andy_JS · November 2020

Richard_Nabavi said:

Roger said:
Another opportunity for Starmer to look strong. Never sees to be very damaging to Labour leaders.
.. except that he looks weak. Maybe not his fault, to be fair, but damaging all the same.

Maybe the leader of the party ought to have a veto on people being re-admitted.

noneoftheabove · November 2020

Intriguing all the posts suggesting Labour should follow the EHRC report by the leader intervening in the complaint process, when one of the main recommendations that the EHRC gave was that the leader must not intervene in the complaints process......

It's almost as if their issue is Labour rather than implementing the EHRC report on anti-setimism.

Stark_Dawning · November 2020

Sir Keir needs to do a Major - put his leadership to the vote in a back-me-or-sack-me challenge. Tell them, 'Either Jeremy goes or I go'. Otherwise I can't see how the Labour Party escapes being tarred as being institutionally anti-semitic.

Philip_Thompson · November 2020

bigjohnowls said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?
Yes. Show some f###ing leadership.

Maybe he can borrow some 🥜s from Carrie?
EHRC says no

The EHRC says that readmission should be expedited by a political committee just days after suspension before there has been an impartial investigation?

I don't think so!

gealbhan · November 2020

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?
Yes. Show some f###ing leadership.

Maybe he can borrow some 🥜s from Carrie?
And how would he do that? Labour is not, never has been, nor should it be, the personal plaything of the leadership.
I suppose he could unilaterally abolish the NEC.
That's what Boris would do.

Was it the NEC who suspended him?

First rule of politics, don’t make your move when you have a losing hand. The only time Corbyn should have been moved against was when he would be out and not coming back.

Beibheirli_C · November 2020

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?

Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.

Philip_Thompson · November 2020

noneoftheabove said:
Intriguing all the posts suggesting Labour should follow the EHRC report by the leader intervening in the complaint process, when one of the main recommendations that the EHRC gave was that the leader must not intervene in the complaints process......

It's almost as if their issue is Labour rather than implementing the EHRC report on anti-setimism.

No, the leader should put in place a complaint process and have that followed rather than permitting a political NEC bypassing that.

The NEC has expedited the readmission of Corbyn before the complaints can be investigated by a new complaints procedure that is coming in. That is political meddling that the leader should be blocking. Let an impartial neutral investigation take place and let that decide the outcome not expedited political ones.

Philip_Thompson · November 2020

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?
Yes. Show some f###ing leadership.

Maybe he can borrow some 🥜s from Carrie?
And how would he do that? Labour is not, never has been, nor should it be, the personal plaything of the leadership.
I suppose he could unilaterally abolish the NEC.
That's what Boris would do.
Edit. And I forgot expel them all.

Yes whether you like it or not Boris has actual backbone and was rewarded by the electorate for it.

dixiedean · November 2020

gealbhan said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?
Yes. Show some f###ing leadership.

Maybe he can borrow some 🥜s from Carrie?
And how would he do that? Labour is not, never has been, nor should it be, the personal plaything of the leadership.
I suppose he could unilaterally abolish the NEC.
That's what Boris would do.
Was it the NEC who suspended him?

First rule of politics, don’t make your move when you have a losing hand. The only time Corbyn should have been moved against was when he would be out and not coming back.

Now that is a justifiable criticism. Imagine the stick Starmer would have got had he done so, though.

Richard_Nabavi · November 2020

There's something wrong in the tone of Starmer's tweets quoted by Mike. It's something which has worried me previously: I know that this has been another painful day for the Jewish community and those Labour members who have fought so hard to tackle antisemitism. I know the hurt that has been caused and the trauma people have felt. .... I know we have a long way to go, but I am absolutely resolute in my determination to make the Labour Party a safe place for Jewish people.

I think this is really quite grating. The implication seems to be that the only people who should be worried by anti-Semitism are Jews themselves, who might feel 'hurt' or 'unsafe'. There's a slightly patronising overtone here, a hint that the party needs to make adjustments to be more welcoming to Jews, in the same way that some trendy CoE vicar might want to make adjustments to his services to make them more appealing to youngsters.

It's mealy-mouthed. Anti-Semitism is an unalloyed evil. It should be called out as such, not reduced to something of concern only inasmuch as it makes Jewish people feel uncomfortable or hurt.

Peter_the_Punter · November 2020

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.

Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.

dixiedean · November 2020

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?
Yes. Show some f###ing leadership.

Maybe he can borrow some 🥜s from Carrie?
And how would he do that? Labour is not, never has been, nor should it be, the personal plaything of the leadership.
I suppose he could unilaterally abolish the NEC.
That's what Boris would do.
Edit. And I forgot expel them all.
Yes whether you like it or not Boris has actual backbone and was rewarded by the electorate for it.

No. Boris leads a Party which IS the personal plaything of the leader.
Sometimes that has advantages, sometimes disadvantages.
"Actual backbone" has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Philip_Thompson · November 2020

Richard_Nabavi said:
There's something wrong in the tone of Starmer's tweets quoted by Mike. It's something which has worried me previously: I know that this has been another painful day for the Jewish community and those Labour members who have fought so hard to tackle antisemitism. I know the hurt that has been caused and the trauma people have felt. .... I know we have a long way to go, but I am absolutely resolute in my determination to make the Labour Party a safe place for Jewish people.

I think this is really quite grating. The implication seems to be that the only people who should be worried by anti-Semitism are Jews themselves, who might feel 'hurt' or 'unsafe'. There's a slightly patronising overtone here, a hint that the party needs to make adjustments to be more welcoming to Jews, in the same way that some trendy CoE vicar might want to make adjustments to his services to make them more appealing to youngsters.

It's mealy-mouthed. Anti-Semitism is an unalloyed evil. It should be called out as such, not reduced to something of concern only inasmuch as it makes Jewish people feel uncomfortable or hurt.

Very well said.

Wulfrun_Phil · November 2020

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?

From the Evening Standard.
"It is yet to be announced whether Mr Corbyn will have the whip restored. It has been reported a group of MPs have threatened to resign if Mr Corbyn is readmitted to the parliamentary Labour party."

There's your answer. Use the fact that Corbyn has been formally warned about his conduct and the continuing absence of a full apology to exclude him from the PLP, until such time as the EHRC recommendations are fully in place.

MikeL · November 2020

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.

Thanks.

But what if they are Republican and block it?

Ditto all the other key states - what if their Boards of Canvassers also block certification?

I don't pretend to know what chance Trump has but I fear that if Republicans put up every possible barrier at every single stage of the process then it's entirely possible that Biden may still have a big fight on his hands.

Stark_Dawning · November 2020

gealbhan said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?
The other galling thing for Labour supporters, looking at all the front pages the Chumocracy narrative was just beginning to gain traction, until big headlines next few days became flip flop Starmer weak on anti semiticsm, Labour still unelectable.

This is what happens when opposition parties are hopeless. I can recall no end of blunders by the Blair government getting shunted off the front pages because of some spectacular Tory balls-up under the leadership of Hague/IDS/Howard.

Philip_Thompson · November 2020

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?
Yes. Show some f###ing leadership.

Maybe he can borrow some 🥜s from Carrie?
And how would he do that? Labour is not, never has been, nor should it be, the personal plaything of the leadership.
I suppose he could unilaterally abolish the NEC.
That's what Boris would do.
Edit. And I forgot expel them all.
Yes whether you like it or not Boris has actual backbone and was rewarded by the electorate for it.
No. Boris leads a Party which IS the personal plaything of the leader.
Sometimes that has advantages, sometimes disadvantages.
"Actual backbone" has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Actually the power to restore the whip belongs to Starmer not the NEC.

Starmer could say tonight in response to the NEC that he disagrees with the decision and is not restoring the whip (which is his choice) and show some actual leadership. Instead he is trying to triangulate this smoothing the feelings of "hurt" without rocking the boat with Corbyn and his fans.

It is terribly weak. You don't triangulate antisemitism. It is an evil cancer and you fight it, there are no "both sides" to this issue.

dixiedean · November 2020

Wulfrun_Phil said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?
From the Evening Standard.
"It is yet to be announced whether Mr Corbyn will have the whip restored. It has been reported a group of MPs have threatened to resign if Mr Corbyn is readmitted to the parliamentary Labour party."

There's your answer. Use the fact that Corbyn has been formally warned about his conduct and the continuing absence of a full apology to exclude him from the PLP, until such time as the EHRC recommendations are fully in place.

Which is an entirely different, and entirely valid course of action.

Beibheirli_C · November 2020

MikeL said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Thanks.

But what if they are Republican and block it?

Ditto all the other key states - what if their Boards of Canvassers also block certification?

I don't pretend to know what chance Trump has but I fear that if Republicans put up every possible barrier at every single stage of the process then it's entirely possible that Biden may still have a big fight on his hands.

Then it will wind up in a court where a judge will say "Biden is is 200,000 votes ahead of Trump, what is the issue here?" and if the "facts" are anything like every case so far, then the plantiffs will be lucky to escape either contempt proceedings or a charge of wasting the Court's time.

One of the reasons many lawyers are not acting for Trump is because anyone filing a motion must certify that they have investigated it, it is not frivolous and has merit. If the judge decides that it is vexatious then the lawyer presenting it may be suspended or have their licence withdrawn.

If you were a senior lawyer, would take that risk for Trump?

IshmaelZ · November 2020

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?
Yes. Show some f###ing leadership.

Maybe he can borrow some 🥜s from Carrie?
And how would he do that? Labour is not, never has been, nor should it be, the personal plaything of the leadership.
I suppose he could unilaterally abolish the NEC.
That's what Boris would do.
Edit. And I forgot expel them all.
Yes whether you like it or not Boris has actual backbone and was rewarded by the electorate for it.

That is mind reading the electorate. You might as well say he was rewarded for spinelessness in avoiding the Neil interview, and for not being Corbyn.

williamglenn · November 2020

Richard_Nabavi said:
There's something wrong in the tone of Starmer's tweets quoted by Mike. It's something which has worried me previously: I know that this has been another painful day for the Jewish community and those Labour members who have fought so hard to tackle antisemitism. I know the hurt that has been caused and the trauma people have felt. .... I know we have a long way to go, but I am absolutely resolute in my determination to make the Labour Party a safe place for Jewish people.

I think this is really quite grating. The implication seems to be that the only people who should be worried by anti-Semitism are Jews themselves, who might feel 'hurt' or 'unsafe'. There's a slightly patronising overtone here, a hint that the party needs to make adjustments to be more welcoming to Jews, in the same way that some trendy CoE vicar might want to make adjustments to his services to make them more appealing to youngsters.

It's mealy-mouthed. Anti-Semitism is an unalloyed evil. It should be called out as such, not reduced to something of concern only inasmuch as it makes Jewish people feel uncomfortable or hurt.

His comments seem to frame the Labour party as a national institution rather than a political party that has no particular right to exist.

NickPalmer · November 2020

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.

No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.

Beibheirli_C · November 2020

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.

I am not saying it is not a shambles, because it is, but mechanisms exist to resolve the disputes. Trump is out, it is that simple.

dixiedean · November 2020

MikeL said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Thanks.

But what if they are Republican and block it?

Ditto all the other key states - what if their Boards of Canvassers also block certification?

I don't pretend to know what chance Trump has but I fear that if Republicans put up every possible barrier at every single stage of the process then it's entirely possible that Biden may still have a big fight on his hands.

True.
Except the rest of the world has moved on. Trump claiming to be President supported by Russia, China and North Korea would be neither sustainable nor edifying.
Almost as bad as Starmer not overturning the entire constitution of the Labour Party.
Well, not quite as bad of course.

isam · November 2020

If Starmer isn’t careful he could end up with a Labour version of Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Muslim Labour have a survey which says they feel as discriminated as Jewish people do by Labour. Jezza’s gang will latch on to this sooner or later. Some MPs already have. So he probably has no choice but to try and keep a broad church that doubles up as a mosque and synagogue else risk losing inner city seats

Philip_Thompson · November 2020

IshmaelZ said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?
Yes. Show some f###ing leadership.

Maybe he can borrow some 🥜s from Carrie?
And how would he do that? Labour is not, never has been, nor should it be, the personal plaything of the leadership.
I suppose he could unilaterally abolish the NEC.
That's what Boris would do.
Edit. And I forgot expel them all.
Yes whether you like it or not Boris has actual backbone and was rewarded by the electorate for it.
That is mind reading the electorate. You might as well say he was rewarded for spinelessness in avoiding the Neil interview, and for not being Corbyn.

That's a different issue, journalists are not MPs. You may not like Boris but Theresa May showed no backbone amongst her MPs and was unable to marshall the Commons as a result.

When it came to MPs Boris wasn't afraid to withdraw the whip even if it cost him his majority to do so - in case you've forgotten at the time he was mocked roundly on this site for having "lost" his majority but the public had other ideas and gave him a landslide and English voters backed his party at a higher percentage even than Scottish voters backed the SNP.

dixiedean · November 2020

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?
Yes. Show some f###ing leadership.

Maybe he can borrow some 🥜s from Carrie?
And how would he do that? Labour is not, never has been, nor should it be, the personal plaything of the leadership.
I suppose he could unilaterally abolish the NEC.
That's what Boris would do.
Edit. And I forgot expel them all.
Yes whether you like it or not Boris has actual backbone and was rewarded by the electorate for it.
No. Boris leads a Party which IS the personal plaything of the leader.
Sometimes that has advantages, sometimes disadvantages.
"Actual backbone" has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
Actually the power to restore the whip belongs to Starmer not the NEC.

Starmer could say tonight in response to the NEC that he disagrees with the decision and is not restoring the whip (which is his choice) and show some actual leadership. Instead he is trying to triangulate this smoothing the feelings of "hurt" without rocking the boat with Corbyn and his fans.

It is terribly weak. You don't triangulate antisemitism. It is an evil cancer and you fight it, there are no "both sides" to this issue.

See my answer above or below. So far the whip has not been restored. Maybe when it is or isn't we will agree on the rightness or wrongness of the matter?
Until then goodnight.

gealbhan · November 2020

dixiedean said:

gealbhan said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?
Yes. Show some f###ing leadership.

Maybe he can borrow some 🥜s from Carrie?
And how would he do that? Labour is not, never has been, nor should it be, the personal plaything of the leadership.
I suppose he could unilaterally abolish the NEC.
That's what Boris would do.
Was it the NEC who suspended him?

First rule of politics, don’t make your move when you have a losing hand. The only time Corbyn should have been moved against was when he would be out and not coming back.
Now that is a justifiable criticism. Imagine the stick Starmer would have got had he done so, though.

It was premature ejection - Starmer paraded it himself to prove he has, as Mr Thompson said, 🥥🥥
Now it’s going to leave a long lasting stain, unless they can cleverly spin it away tomorrow. Goodness knows how they will.

First rule of politics, don’t move unless your certain of the win.

If you need this explained in more detail, with examples, episode 2, Independence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtajI8Tmsw&list=PL_sko5QmbtRSW-wMcRLB-ufN8xqfMup1g&index=5

kle4 · November 2020

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.

Corbyn was suspended for his comments, which he pretended to walk back (arguing, apparently, that when he said things had been dramatically overstated that he did not actually mean it had been overstated), thus leaving little option but to readmit I expect, since that was the only thing he had been suspended over.

Not sure that the suggestion of Wulfrun_Phil and DixieDean works in not having him in the PLP right away, but no harm making him sweat it out, and keeps the rest of the Corbynistas on notice. I mean, the PLP is his domain, whether or not the party membership process is done. Like how disciplinary procedures can take place even if someone is not charged with a crime.

justin124 · November 2020

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.

Just like Thatcher, Major and Heath by failing to remove the Tory Whip from apologists for Apartheid and Smith's Rhodesia regime.

Beibheirli_C · November 2020

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.

And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election

justin124 · November 2020

MikeL said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Thanks.

But what if they are Republican and block it?

Ditto all the other key states - what if their Boards of Canvassers also block certification?

I don't pretend to know what chance Trump has but I fear that if Republicans put up every possible barrier at every single stage of the process then it's entirely possible that Biden may still have a big fight on his hands.

Surely there are Democrats on Boards of Canvassers in other states who could retaliate in kind?

Philip_Thompson · November 2020

justin124 said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
Just like Thatcher, Major and Heath by failing to remove the Tory Whip from apologists for Apartheid and Smith's Rhodesia regime.

Heath and Thatcher? We are in the 2020s not the 1970s or 1980s and neither of them are alive anymore.

You're playing whatabouterism with something from half a century ago.

Major was weak indeed, especially post Black Wednesday. If you're suggesting that Starmer may have all the success of mid-90s Major then I'm not sure you're setting the bar very high for him.

kle4 · November 2020

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election

Politicians love making courts decide things that shouldn't need court involvement thesedays.

justin124 · November 2020

And Thatcher? She failed to get the Whip removed from Tory MPs advocating the hanging of Mandela.

Wulfrun_Phil · November 2020

Philip_Thompson said:

noneoftheabove said:
Intriguing all the posts suggesting Labour should follow the EHRC report by the leader intervening in the complaint process, when one of the main recommendations that the EHRC gave was that the leader must not intervene in the complaints process......

It's almost as if their issue is Labour rather than implementing the EHRC report on anti-setimism.
No, the leader should put in place a complaint process and have that followed rather than permitting a political NEC bypassing that.

The NEC has expedited the readmission of Corbyn before the complaints can be investigated by a new complaints procedure that is coming in. That is political meddling that the leader should be blocking. Let an impartial neutral investigation take place and let that decide the outcome not expedited political ones.

I agree that the speed of the decision was both surprising and inappropriate. However, it provides a further reason for Starmer to distance himself from a decision beyond his control and state that any readmission should, in his view have been taken by an independent panel. And then to delay any readmission to the parliamentary party until he has followed through on his pledge to implement the recommendations and such a panel is in place.

MikeL · November 2020

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Thanks.

But what if they are Republican and block it?

Ditto all the other key states - what if their Boards of Canvassers also block certification?

I don't pretend to know what chance Trump has but I fear that if Republicans put up every possible barrier at every single stage of the process then it's entirely possible that Biden may still have a big fight on his hands.
Then it will wind up in a court where a judge will say "Biden is is 200,000 votes ahead of Trump, what is the issue here?" and if the "facts" are anything like every case so far, then the plantiffs will be lucky to escape either contempt proceedings or a charge of wasting the Court's time.

One of the reasons many lawyers are not acting for Trump is because anyone filing a motion must certify that they have investigated it, it is not frivolous and has merit. If the judge decides that it is vexatious then the lawyer presenting it may be suspended or have their licence withdrawn.

If you were a senior lawyer, would take that risk for Trump?

Thanks again!

However if results simply aren't certified, Trump / Republicans wouldn't be the plaintiff in any Court action - they can just sit on their hands.

Presumably it would be Biden (or someone else?) having to launch Court action to try to get results certified.

Would a judge always insist that some result was certified? Or might they just say "No certified result for County X so zero votes recorded for County X" - resulting in Trump winning the State.

I know Trump needs more than Michigan - but who is to say the same procedure isn't also followed in other States to produce Trump wins.

gealbhan · November 2020

isam said:
If Starmer isn’t careful he could end up with a Labour version of Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Muslim Labour have a survey which says they feel as discriminated as Jewish people do by Labour. Jezza’s gang will latch on to this sooner or later. Some MPs already have. So he probably has no choice but to try and keep a broad church that doubles up as a mosque and synagogue else risk losing inner city seats

Spot on. The Democrats lost the US election, and Labour will go on losing in the UK for that same reason, ridiculous coalitions cannot win in this social media age.

Beibheirli_C · November 2020

justin124 said:

MikeL said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Thanks.

But what if they are Republican and block it?

Ditto all the other key states - what if their Boards of Canvassers also block certification?

I don't pretend to know what chance Trump has but I fear that if Republicans put up every possible barrier at every single stage of the process then it's entirely possible that Biden may still have a big fight on his hands.
Surely there are Democrats on Boards of Canvassers in other states who could retaliate in kind?

The States are effectively different countries so it is none of their concern. Even if it they did try that, it would be playground squabbles kind of stuff and just plain daft - the sort of thing you would read in a cheap, trashy, airport novel.....

Peter_the_Punter · November 2020

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election

Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?

Philip_Thompson · November 2020

justin124 said:
And Thatcher? She failed to get the Whip removed from Tory MPs advocating the hanging of Mandela.

So if you're not happy with Thatcher I suggest you don't vote for a party led by her again. Maybe seek to oust her as an MP, which seat is she standing in and what was her majority in 2019? 🙄

Thatcher not only was not PM at all during my adult lifetime, she was ousted as PM while I was still in primary school - and I'm old enough to have voted now in six General Elections. I think its time you move on.

gealbhan · November 2020

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?

Aren’t we missing something?

This shouldn’t’ even be happening. The fact it is sends out little come and get me vibes to everyone in the Republican Party.

IshmaelZ · November 2020

justin124 said:
And Thatcher? She failed to get the Whip removed from Tory MPs advocating the hanging of Mandela.

Very naughty of them, but the comic effect on the posturing protesters du jour was irresistible.

kle4 · November 2020

Philip_Thompson said:

justin124 said:
And Thatcher? She failed to get the Whip removed from Tory MPs advocating the hanging of Mandela.
So if you're not happy with Thatcher I suggest you don't vote for a party led by her again. Maybe seek to oust her as an MP, which seat is she standing in and what was her majority in 2019? 🙄

Thatcher not only was not PM at all during my adult lifetime, she was ousted as PM while I was still in primary school - and I'm old enough to have voted now in six General Elections. I think its time you move on.

So much agreement with this.

In any case we are all taught as kids two wrongs dont make a right.

Philip_Thompson · November 2020

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1328852352787484677
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1328852354049957888

Not healthy that an election loser has the power to lash out like this.

gealbhan · November 2020

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Philip_Thompson said:

noneoftheabove said:
Intriguing all the posts suggesting Labour should follow the EHRC report by the leader intervening in the complaint process, when one of the main recommendations that the EHRC gave was that the leader must not intervene in the complaints process......

It's almost as if their issue is Labour rather than implementing the EHRC report on anti-setimism.
No, the leader should put in place a complaint process and have that followed rather than permitting a political NEC bypassing that.

The NEC has expedited the readmission of Corbyn before the complaints can be investigated by a new complaints procedure that is coming in. That is political meddling that the leader should be blocking. Let an impartial neutral investigation take place and let that decide the outcome not expedited political ones.
I agree that the speed of the decision was both surprising and inappropriate. However, it provides a further reason for Starmer to distance himself from a decision beyond his control and state that any readmission should, in his view have been taken by an independent panel. And then to delay any readmission to the parliamentary party until he has followed through on his pledge to implement the recommendations and such a panel is in place.

How was he suspended in the first place, again?

isam · November 2020

gealbhan said:

isam said:
If Starmer isn’t careful he could end up with a Labour version of Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Muslim Labour have a survey which says they feel as discriminated as Jewish people do by Labour. Jezza’s gang will latch on to this sooner or later. Some MPs already have. So he probably has no choice but to try and keep a broad church that doubles up as a mosque and synagogue else risk losing inner city seats
Spot on. The Democrats lost the US election, and Labour will go on losing in the UK for that same reason, ridiculous coalitions cannot win in this social media age.

Actually I don’t think sub groups who distinguish themselves by religion or colour within parties is a good idea at all. Quite poisonous.

Unfortunately for most moderate, social democrats, they have hitched their wagon to groups who don’t share their secular views and the circle can’t really be squared

Peter_the_Punter · November 2020

Philip_Thompson said:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1328852352787484677
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1328852354049957888

Not healthy that an election loser has the power to lash out like this.

One has the uncomfortable feeling that Democracy is hanging in the balance. It's not the first time I've had that feeling since Nov 3rd. I expect Democracy will prevail, and Trump will go, but I wouldn't take it for granted, and one has to be concerned about how much damage he can do before he goes.

Pulpstar · November 2020

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?

GOP going to be repealing the 2nd amendment when all this ends.

Beibheirli_C · November 2020

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?

We shall have to wait and see.

MikeL · November 2020

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?

Why would the Republicans just pull this stunt in Michigan?

Do the same thing in a couple of other key States and bingo Trump wins.

Now hopefully the Courts would intervene to stop it but who knows? This is the USA - anything goes.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be remarkably complacent about the whole thing.

How much chance Trump has I don't know but I wouldn't dream of risking my life savings backing Biden at 1.05.

Roy_G_Biv · November 2020

IshmaelZ said:

justin124 said:
And Thatcher? She failed to get the Whip removed from Tory MPs advocating the hanging of Mandela.
Very naughty of them, but the comic effect on the posturing protesters du jour was irresistible.

"Hang Mandela to pwn the libs"? Ugh

gealbhan · November 2020

isam said:

gealbhan said:

isam said:
If Starmer isn’t careful he could end up with a Labour version of Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Muslim Labour have a survey which says they feel as discriminated as Jewish people do by Labour. Jezza’s gang will latch on to this sooner or later. Some MPs already have. So he probably has no choice but to try and keep a broad church that doubles up as a mosque and synagogue else risk losing inner city seats
Spot on. The Democrats lost the US election, and Labour will go on losing in the UK for that same reason, ridiculous coalitions cannot win in this social media age.
Actually I don’t think sub groups who distinguish themselves by religion or colour within parties is a good idea at all. Quite poisonous.

Unfortunately for most moderate, social democrats, they have hitched their wagon to groups who don’t share their secular views and the circle can’t really be squared

Right. Let’s get serious.

If coalition is also more diverse, culturally and ideologically, the result is that different elected members need to occupy very different places on the political spectrum and on issues. What one would campaign on in one constituency would be suicide campaign in another must win constituency. You can’t speak as one in broad coalition.

Whereas conservative minded voters tend to coalesce around a couple of key issues you can campaign and win on anywhere.

Boris won on a Corbyn would be a disaster and look at my oven ready brexit, whilst Labour was in death spiral initiated by its pro Palestinian stance.

Verdict. The worlds changed. It’s moved against them. But their brains haven’t caught up yet.

justin124 · November 2020

Philip_Thompson said:

justin124 said:
And Thatcher? She failed to get the Whip removed from Tory MPs advocating the hanging of Mandela.
So if you're not happy with Thatcher I suggest you don't vote for a party led by her again. Maybe seek to oust her as an MP, which seat is she standing in and what was her majority in 2019? 🙄

Thatcher not only was not PM at all during my adult lifetime, she was ousted as PM while I was still in primary school - and I'm old enough to have voted now in six General Elections. I think its time you move on.

The fact that you were too young to vote at the time is neither here nor there. The fact remains that some of those monsters are still with us - including the former MP for Luton North.

Peter_the_Punter · November 2020

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?
Why would the Republicans just pull this stunt in Michigan?

Do the same thing in a couple of other key States and bingo Trump wins.

Now hopefully the Courts would intervene to stop it but who knows? This is the USA - anything goes.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be remarkably complacent about the whole thing.

How much chance Trump has I don't know but I wouldn't dream of risking my life savings backing Biden at 1.05.

I'm too lazy to do the arith but Trump has to pull the stunt in quite a number of States because failure to certify the result does not automatically hand the ECVs to him. I don't think the situation has arisen before but I would imagine the best Trump could hope for would be a voiding of the results. If the Canvassers or the Courts tried to award the ECVs to Trump and as a result he remained in office I really do think there would be civil unrest.

I come back to my considered view that this is all a game of stalling. There must be very high stakes involved for so many people to put so much at risk.

One shudders to think what Machiavellian schemes may be unfolding.

MikeL · November 2020

CNN:

"According to Michigan law, the Board of State Canvassers is now required to deal with the results from Wayne County within 10 days. The Board of State Canvassers similarly has two Democrats and two Republicans.

It is unclear what would happen if the state board reaches the same partisan deadlock. Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson, a Democrat, suggested in a statement Tuesday night that she could use her powers overseeing the statewide Bureau of Election to get the results from Wayne County certified.

“In similar circumstances in the past, state canvassers have appointed the Bureau of Elections to carry out the processes of canvassing the vote and voter totals,” Benson said. “The Bureau stands ready to fulfill this duty and we expect this will address clerical errors and improve the quality of the canvass overall.”"

https://edition.cnn.com/politics/live-news/biden-trump-us-election-news-11-17-20/index.html

MikeL · November 2020

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?
Why would the Republicans just pull this stunt in Michigan?

Do the same thing in a couple of other key States and bingo Trump wins.

Now hopefully the Courts would intervene to stop it but who knows? This is the USA - anything goes.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be remarkably complacent about the whole thing.

How much chance Trump has I don't know but I wouldn't dream of risking my life savings backing Biden at 1.05.
I'm too lazy to do the arith but Trump has to pull the stunt in quite a number of States because failure to certify the result does not automatically hand the ECVs to him. I don't think the situation has arisen before but I would imagine the best Trump could hope for would be a voiding of the results. If the Canvassers or the Courts tried to award the ECVs to Trump and as a result he remained in office I really do think there would be civil unrest.

I come back to my considered view that this is all a game of stalling. There must be very high stakes involved for so many people to put so much at risk.

One shudders to think what Machiavellian schemes may be unfolding.

Trump doesn't need the ECVs to be awarded to him.

All he needs is to stop Biden getting 270.

The result should be 306-232. If 37 Biden ECVs get voided then it's 269-232 - in that situation Biden does not win - it goes to the House of Representatives.

IshmaelZ · November 2020

Roy_G_Biv said:

IshmaelZ said:

justin124 said:
And Thatcher? She failed to get the Whip removed from Tory MPs advocating the hanging of Mandela.
Very naughty of them, but the comic effect on the posturing protesters du jour was irresistible.
"Hang Mandela to pwn the libs"? Ugh

As I said, very naughty.

Philip_Thompson · November 2020

justin124 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

justin124 said:
And Thatcher? She failed to get the Whip removed from Tory MPs advocating the hanging of Mandela.
So if you're not happy with Thatcher I suggest you don't vote for a party led by her again. Maybe seek to oust her as an MP, which seat is she standing in and what was her majority in 2019? 🙄

Thatcher not only was not PM at all during my adult lifetime, she was ousted as PM while I was still in primary school - and I'm old enough to have voted now in six General Elections. I think its time you move on.
The fact that you were too young to vote at the time is neither here nor there. The fact remains that some of those monsters are still with us - including the former MP for Luton North.

So why don't you campaign for the former MP for Luton North to lose his seat at the next election then?

Get a grip.

dodrade · November 2020

Philip_Thompson said:

justin124 said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
Just like Thatcher, Major and Heath by failing to remove the Tory Whip from apologists for Apartheid and Smith's Rhodesia regime.
Heath and Thatcher? We are in the 2020s not the 1970s or 1980s and neither of them are alive anymore.

You're playing whatabouterism with something from half a century ago.

Just a few months ago we had a violent mob work themselves into a frenzy over a man who died 300 years ago.

Peter_the_Punter · November 2020

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?
Why would the Republicans just pull this stunt in Michigan?

Do the same thing in a couple of other key States and bingo Trump wins.

Now hopefully the Courts would intervene to stop it but who knows? This is the USA - anything goes.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be remarkably complacent about the whole thing.

How much chance Trump has I don't know but I wouldn't dream of risking my life savings backing Biden at 1.05.
I'm too lazy to do the arith but Trump has to pull the stunt in quite a number of States because failure to certify the result does not automatically hand the ECVs to him. I don't think the situation has arisen before but I would imagine the best Trump could hope for would be a voiding of the results. If the Canvassers or the Courts tried to award the ECVs to Trump and as a result he remained in office I really do think there would be civil unrest.

I come back to my considered view that this is all a game of stalling. There must be very high stakes involved for so many people to put so much at risk.

One shudders to think what Machiavellian schemes may be unfolding.
Trump doesn't need the ECVs to be awarded to him.

All he needs is to stop Biden getting 270.

The result should be 306-232. If 37 Biden ECVs get voided then it's 269-232 - in that situation Biden does not win - it goes to the House of Representatives.

The House? That has a Dem majority.

But I think by that time it would be getting pretty frisky on the streets.

DecrepiterJohnL · November 2020

Betfair sees a 5-tick drift in Michigan. Current Betfair prices:-

Biden 1.05
Democrats 1.05
Biden PV 1.04
Biden PV 49-51.9% 1.05
Trump PV 46-48.9% 1.06
Trump ECV 210-239 1.07
Biden ECV 300-329 1.07
Biden ECV Hcap -48.5 1.06
Biden ECV Hcap -63.5 1.07
Trump ECV Hcap +81.5 1.02

AZ Dem 1.06
GA Dem 1.06
MI Dem 1.09
NV Dem 1.04
PA Dem 1.05
WI Dem 1.05

FrancisUrquhart · November 2020

https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1328863508071657472?s=19

gealbhan · November 2020

IshmaelZ said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?
Yes. Show some f###ing leadership.

Maybe he can borrow some 🥜s from Carrie?
And how would he do that? Labour is not, never has been, nor should it be, the personal plaything of the leadership.
I suppose he could unilaterally abolish the NEC.
That's what Boris would do.
Edit. And I forgot expel them all.
Yes whether you like it or not Boris has actual backbone and was rewarded by the electorate for it.
That is mind reading the electorate. You might as well say he was rewarded for spinelessness in avoiding the Neil interview, and for not being Corbyn.

Let me explain it in very simple terms.

For all his faults, Boris doesn't talk down to or demean voters the way Labour has been doing. I don’t just mean Corbyn, Look at how Starmer tweets have been analyzed in this thread.

Someone wants to boast about having half a million members, yet the entry fee to enter the broad tent is to embrace political correctness - in other words criticise voters for not being thoughtful enough, for not being conscientious enough, not being "woke" enough.

Their platform is join us, we are enlightened, we will save you from being an ignorant, racist, yokel in need of cultural guidance.

Until Labour realises what they have become, and how unelectable it is, they go on losing digital, social media elections.

This is the kicker, as Boris would say, look how I describe Labour, it’s Labour who ensures there is a bigger coalition who will believe any old crap about them come election time. They create this majority against them themselves, by the personality they have become.

Pulpstar · November 2020

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?
Why would the Republicans just pull this stunt in Michigan?

Do the same thing in a couple of other key States and bingo Trump wins.

Now hopefully the Courts would intervene to stop it but who knows? This is the USA - anything goes.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be remarkably complacent about the whole thing.

How much chance Trump has I don't know but I wouldn't dream of risking my life savings backing Biden at 1.05.

Popular vote looks a better bet at 1.04/1.05 - I went through, if the GOP did a similiar job in the black majority county capitals to try and flip WI, MI, GA and PA via voiding the votes...

Philly 462,675
Fulton 243,904
Dekalb 249,771
Clayton 95,476
Minneapolis 326,642
Wayne 322,925
---------
1,701,393 net to Trump. Perhaps 2 million if you include all of Atlanta.

Biden's going to win by more than 5 million so it's a fair cushion even if in extremis CNN adjusts their totals to the batshit crazy coup numbers.

DecrepiterJohnL · November 2020

Labour. The EHRC report did not say Corbyn is antisemitic, which is what a lot of the commentary on here presupposes. It condemned Labour's processes for handling complaints about antisemitism, along the lines of @Cyclefree's headers.

Philip_Thompson · November 2020

Incidentally there are no living former Tory MPs for Luton North @justin124

Not that any former MPs face judgement at election time. Key word is former, second key word is deceased, but even if he was still alive it would be former still.

Yet Corbyn is very much still alive and more importantly very much still an MP. So instead of whataboutering people who are dead and haven't even been an MP this century how about talking about antisemites of today like the existing Member for Islington North?

MikeL · November 2020

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?
Why would the Republicans just pull this stunt in Michigan?

Do the same thing in a couple of other key States and bingo Trump wins.

Now hopefully the Courts would intervene to stop it but who knows? This is the USA - anything goes.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be remarkably complacent about the whole thing.

How much chance Trump has I don't know but I wouldn't dream of risking my life savings backing Biden at 1.05.
I'm too lazy to do the arith but Trump has to pull the stunt in quite a number of States because failure to certify the result does not automatically hand the ECVs to him. I don't think the situation has arisen before but I would imagine the best Trump could hope for would be a voiding of the results. If the Canvassers or the Courts tried to award the ECVs to Trump and as a result he remained in office I really do think there would be civil unrest.

I come back to my considered view that this is all a game of stalling. There must be very high stakes involved for so many people to put so much at risk.

One shudders to think what Machiavellian schemes may be unfolding.
Trump doesn't need the ECVs to be awarded to him.

All he needs is to stop Biden getting 270.

The result should be 306-232. If 37 Biden ECVs get voided then it's 269-232 - in that situation Biden does not win - it goes to the House of Representatives.
The House? That has a Dem majority.

But I think by that time it would be getting pretty frisky on the streets.

No.

The House votes on the basis of State delegations - each State delegation gets one vote.

The Republicans have a majority of State delegations I'm afraid.

And yes, I'm sure it will get very frisky on the streets.

Peter_the_Punter · November 2020

I have to turn in. Been a fascinating if somewhat disquieting evening.

Nite all.

Pulpstar · November 2020

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?
Why would the Republicans just pull this stunt in Michigan?

Do the same thing in a couple of other key States and bingo Trump wins.

Now hopefully the Courts would intervene to stop it but who knows? This is the USA - anything goes.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be remarkably complacent about the whole thing.

How much chance Trump has I don't know but I wouldn't dream of risking my life savings backing Biden at 1.05.
I'm too lazy to do the arith but Trump has to pull the stunt in quite a number of States because failure to certify the result does not automatically hand the ECVs to him. I don't think the situation has arisen before but I would imagine the best Trump could hope for would be a voiding of the results. If the Canvassers or the Courts tried to award the ECVs to Trump and as a result he remained in office I really do think there would be civil unrest.

I come back to my considered view that this is all a game of stalling. There must be very high stakes involved for so many people to put so much at risk.

One shudders to think what Machiavellian schemes may be unfolding.
Trump doesn't need the ECVs to be awarded to him.

All he needs is to stop Biden getting 270.

The result should be 306-232. If 37 Biden ECVs get voided then it's 269-232 - in that situation Biden does not win - it goes to the House of Representatives.

Would be quite the way to start the 2nd American civil war

IshmaelZ · November 2020

gealbhan said:

IshmaelZ said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Starmer weak, weak, weak.

He did one right thing and now its reversed and he just sits there and Tweets that he understands people are upset.

Weak. Weak. Weak.

No leadership from Captain Hindsight.
What is he supposed to do?
Overrule the NEC?
Yes. Show some f###ing leadership.

Maybe he can borrow some 🥜s from Carrie?
And how would he do that? Labour is not, never has been, nor should it be, the personal plaything of the leadership.
I suppose he could unilaterally abolish the NEC.
That's what Boris would do.
Edit. And I forgot expel them all.
Yes whether you like it or not Boris has actual backbone and was rewarded by the electorate for it.
That is mind reading the electorate. You might as well say he was rewarded for spinelessness in avoiding the Neil interview, and for not being Corbyn.
Let me explain it in very simple terms.

For all his faults, Boris doesn't talk down to or demean voters the way Labour has been doing. I don’t just mean Corbyn, Look at how Starmer tweets have been analyzed in this thread.

Someone wants to boast about having half a million members, yet the entry fee to enter the broad tent is to embrace political correctness - in other words criticise voters for not being thoughtful enough, for not being conscientious enough, not being "woke" enough.

Their platform is join us, we are enlightened, we will save you from being an ignorant, racist, yokel in need of cultural guidance.

Until Labour realises what they have become, and how unelectable it is, they go on losing digital, social media elections.

This is the kicker, as Boris would say, look how I describe Labour, it’s Labour who ensures there is a bigger coalition who will believe any old crap about them come election time. They create this majority against them themselves, by the personality they have become.

Surely even you can see that you can't really segue straight from your first sentence, to a condemnation of talking down to people?

Not simple enough, anyway. I didn't understand a word of it.

justin124 · November 2020

Philip_Thompson said:
Incidentally there are no living former Tory MPs for Luton North @justin124

Not that any former MPs face judgement at election time. Key word is former, second key word is deceased, but even if he was still alive it would be former still.

Yet Corbyn is very much still alive and more importantly very much still an MP. So instead of whataboutering people who are dead and haven't even been an MP this century how about talking about antisemites of today like the existing Member for Islington North?

Good to know that such a repulsive being as Carlisle is no longer with us. He was clearly a racist with strong neofascist tendencies. Those who turned a blind eye to such evil are in no position to criticise Corbyn.

justin124 · November 2020

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?
Why would the Republicans just pull this stunt in Michigan?

Do the same thing in a couple of other key States and bingo Trump wins.

Now hopefully the Courts would intervene to stop it but who knows? This is the USA - anything goes.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be remarkably complacent about the whole thing.

How much chance Trump has I don't know but I wouldn't dream of risking my life savings backing Biden at 1.05.
I'm too lazy to do the arith but Trump has to pull the stunt in quite a number of States because failure to certify the result does not automatically hand the ECVs to him. I don't think the situation has arisen before but I would imagine the best Trump could hope for would be a voiding of the results. If the Canvassers or the Courts tried to award the ECVs to Trump and as a result he remained in office I really do think there would be civil unrest.

I come back to my considered view that this is all a game of stalling. There must be very high stakes involved for so many people to put so much at risk.

One shudders to think what Machiavellian schemes may be unfolding.
Trump doesn't need the ECVs to be awarded to him.

All he needs is to stop Biden getting 270.

The result should be 306-232. If 37 Biden ECVs get voided then it's 269-232 - in that situation Biden does not win - it goes to the House of Representatives.
The House? That has a Dem majority.

But I think by that time it would be getting pretty frisky on the streets.
No.

The House votes on the basis of State delegations - each State delegation gets one vote.

The Republicans have a majority of State delegations I'm afraid.

And yes, I'm sure it will get very frisky on the streets.

The US would become seen as a failed state . I doubt that Trump would be recognised as the legitimate leader by the Western world.

IshmaelZ · November 2020

justin124 said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Incidentally there are no living former Tory MPs for Luton North @justin124

Not that any former MPs face judgement at election time. Key word is former, second key word is deceased, but even if he was still alive it would be former still.

Yet Corbyn is very much still alive and more importantly very much still an MP. So instead of whataboutering people who are dead and haven't even been an MP this century how about talking about antisemites of today like the existing Member for Islington North?
Good to know that such a repulsive being as Carlisle is no longer with us. He was clearly a racist with strong neofascist tendencies. Those who turned a blind eye to such evil are in no position to criticise Corbyn.

Are you the guy who thinks it clever to refer to the children of unmarried parents as "bastards"? Because if so you look quite like Carlisle and Dicks, from where I'm standing.

DecrepiterJohnL · November 2020

justin124 said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?
Why would the Republicans just pull this stunt in Michigan?

Do the same thing in a couple of other key States and bingo Trump wins.

Now hopefully the Courts would intervene to stop it but who knows? This is the USA - anything goes.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be remarkably complacent about the whole thing.

How much chance Trump has I don't know but I wouldn't dream of risking my life savings backing Biden at 1.05.
I'm too lazy to do the arith but Trump has to pull the stunt in quite a number of States because failure to certify the result does not automatically hand the ECVs to him. I don't think the situation has arisen before but I would imagine the best Trump could hope for would be a voiding of the results. If the Canvassers or the Courts tried to award the ECVs to Trump and as a result he remained in office I really do think there would be civil unrest.

I come back to my considered view that this is all a game of stalling. There must be very high stakes involved for so many people to put so much at risk.

One shudders to think what Machiavellian schemes may be unfolding.
Trump doesn't need the ECVs to be awarded to him.

All he needs is to stop Biden getting 270.

The result should be 306-232. If 37 Biden ECVs get voided then it's 269-232 - in that situation Biden does not win - it goes to the House of Representatives.
The House? That has a Dem majority.

But I think by that time it would be getting pretty frisky on the streets.
No.

The House votes on the basis of State delegations - each State delegation gets one vote.

The Republicans have a majority of State delegations I'm afraid.

And yes, I'm sure it will get very frisky on the streets.

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?
Why would the Republicans just pull this stunt in Michigan?

Do the same thing in a couple of other key States and bingo Trump wins.

Now hopefully the Courts would intervene to stop it but who knows? This is the USA - anything goes.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be remarkably complacent about the whole thing.

How much chance Trump has I don't know but I wouldn't dream of risking my life savings backing Biden at 1.05.
I'm too lazy to do the arith but Trump has to pull the stunt in quite a number of States because failure to certify the result does not automatically hand the ECVs to him. I don't think the situation has arisen before but I would imagine the best Trump could hope for would be a voiding of the results. If the Canvassers or the Courts tried to award the ECVs to Trump and as a result he remained in office I really do think there would be civil unrest.

I come back to my considered view that this is all a game of stalling. There must be very high stakes involved for so many people to put so much at risk.

One shudders to think what Machiavellian schemes may be unfolding.
Trump doesn't need the ECVs to be awarded to him.

All he needs is to stop Biden getting 270.

The result should be 306-232. If 37 Biden ECVs get voided then it's 269-232 - in that situation Biden does not win - it goes to the House of Representatives.
The House? That has a Dem majority.

But I think by that time it would be getting pretty frisky on the streets.
No.

The House votes on the basis of State delegations - each State delegation gets one vote.

The Republicans have a majority of State delegations I'm afraid.

And yes, I'm sure it will get very frisky on the streets.
The US would become seen as a failed state . I doubt that Trump would be recognised as the legitimate leader by the Western world.

There is not a great deal the Western world could do about an American coup d'etat.

justin124 · November 2020

IshmaelZ said:

justin124 said:

Philip_Thompson said:
Incidentally there are no living former Tory MPs for Luton North @justin124

Not that any former MPs face judgement at election time. Key word is former, second key word is deceased, but even if he was still alive it would be former still.

Yet Corbyn is very much still alive and more importantly very much still an MP. So instead of whataboutering people who are dead and haven't even been an MP this century how about talking about antisemites of today like the existing Member for Islington North?
Good to know that such a repulsive being as Carlisle is no longer with us. He was clearly a racist with strong neofascist tendencies. Those who turned a blind eye to such evil are in no position to criticise Corbyn.
Are you the guy who thinks it clever to refer to the children of unmarried parents as "bastards"? Because if so you look quite like Carlisle and Dicks, from where I'm standing.

I have nothing whatsoever against children born out of wedlock, but take a dim view of the parents who enable such a label to be applied to them. That they are 'bastards' is a legal fact - but no discrimination is justified.

justin124 · November 2020

DecrepiterJohnL said:

justin124 said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?
Why would the Republicans just pull this stunt in Michigan?

Do the same thing in a couple of other key States and bingo Trump wins.

Now hopefully the Courts would intervene to stop it but who knows? This is the USA - anything goes.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be remarkably complacent about the whole thing.

How much chance Trump has I don't know but I wouldn't dream of risking my life savings backing Biden at 1.05.
I'm too lazy to do the arith but Trump has to pull the stunt in quite a number of States because failure to certify the result does not automatically hand the ECVs to him. I don't think the situation has arisen before but I would imagine the best Trump could hope for would be a voiding of the results. If the Canvassers or the Courts tried to award the ECVs to Trump and as a result he remained in office I really do think there would be civil unrest.

I come back to my considered view that this is all a game of stalling. There must be very high stakes involved for so many people to put so much at risk.

One shudders to think what Machiavellian schemes may be unfolding.
Trump doesn't need the ECVs to be awarded to him.

All he needs is to stop Biden getting 270.

The result should be 306-232. If 37 Biden ECVs get voided then it's 269-232 - in that situation Biden does not win - it goes to the House of Representatives.
The House? That has a Dem majority.

But I think by that time it would be getting pretty frisky on the streets.
No.

The House votes on the basis of State delegations - each State delegation gets one vote.

The Republicans have a majority of State delegations I'm afraid.

And yes, I'm sure it will get very frisky on the streets.

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?
Why would the Republicans just pull this stunt in Michigan?

Do the same thing in a couple of other key States and bingo Trump wins.

Now hopefully the Courts would intervene to stop it but who knows? This is the USA - anything goes.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be remarkably complacent about the whole thing.

How much chance Trump has I don't know but I wouldn't dream of risking my life savings backing Biden at 1.05.
I'm too lazy to do the arith but Trump has to pull the stunt in quite a number of States because failure to certify the result does not automatically hand the ECVs to him. I don't think the situation has arisen before but I would imagine the best Trump could hope for would be a voiding of the results. If the Canvassers or the Courts tried to award the ECVs to Trump and as a result he remained in office I really do think there would be civil unrest.

I come back to my considered view that this is all a game of stalling. There must be very high stakes involved for so many people to put so much at risk.

One shudders to think what Machiavellian schemes may be unfolding.
Trump doesn't need the ECVs to be awarded to him.

All he needs is to stop Biden getting 270.

The result should be 306-232. If 37 Biden ECVs get voided then it's 269-232 - in that situation Biden does not win - it goes to the House of Representatives.
The House? That has a Dem majority.

But I think by that time it would be getting pretty frisky on the streets.
No.

The House votes on the basis of State delegations - each State delegation gets one vote.

The Republicans have a majority of State delegations I'm afraid.

And yes, I'm sure it will get very frisky on the streets.
The US would become seen as a failed state . I doubt that Trump would be recognised as the legitimate leader by the Western world.
There is not a great deal the Western world could do about an American coup d'etat.

But the USA would cease to be seen as a democracy - no different to China.It is unlikely to come to that in that I seem to recall that the decision of the Electoral College has to be approved by a combined session of Congress in January. Normally that is but a rubber stamp, but under these circumstances that would not be so. The Democrats would be joined by Republicans such as Romney, Sasse and Collins in blocking such an attempt by Trump to usurp normal process.

williamglenn · November 2020

https://twitter.com/alizaslav/status/1328797096703561730?s=21

DecrepiterJohnL · November 2020

justin124 said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

justin124 said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?
Why would the Republicans just pull this stunt in Michigan?

Do the same thing in a couple of other key States and bingo Trump wins.

Now hopefully the Courts would intervene to stop it but who knows? This is the USA - anything goes.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be remarkably complacent about the whole thing.

How much chance Trump has I don't know but I wouldn't dream of risking my life savings backing Biden at 1.05.
I'm too lazy to do the arith but Trump has to pull the stunt in quite a number of States because failure to certify the result does not automatically hand the ECVs to him. I don't think the situation has arisen before but I would imagine the best Trump could hope for would be a voiding of the results. If the Canvassers or the Courts tried to award the ECVs to Trump and as a result he remained in office I really do think there would be civil unrest.

I come back to my considered view that this is all a game of stalling. There must be very high stakes involved for so many people to put so much at risk.

One shudders to think what Machiavellian schemes may be unfolding.
Trump doesn't need the ECVs to be awarded to him.

All he needs is to stop Biden getting 270.

The result should be 306-232. If 37 Biden ECVs get voided then it's 269-232 - in that situation Biden does not win - it goes to the House of Representatives.
The House? That has a Dem majority.

But I think by that time it would be getting pretty frisky on the streets.
No.

The House votes on the basis of State delegations - each State delegation gets one vote.

The Republicans have a majority of State delegations I'm afraid.

And yes, I'm sure it will get very frisky on the streets.

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?
Why would the Republicans just pull this stunt in Michigan?

Do the same thing in a couple of other key States and bingo Trump wins.

Now hopefully the Courts would intervene to stop it but who knows? This is the USA - anything goes.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be remarkably complacent about the whole thing.

How much chance Trump has I don't know but I wouldn't dream of risking my life savings backing Biden at 1.05.
I'm too lazy to do the arith but Trump has to pull the stunt in quite a number of States because failure to certify the result does not automatically hand the ECVs to him. I don't think the situation has arisen before but I would imagine the best Trump could hope for would be a voiding of the results. If the Canvassers or the Courts tried to award the ECVs to Trump and as a result he remained in office I really do think there would be civil unrest.

I come back to my considered view that this is all a game of stalling. There must be very high stakes involved for so many people to put so much at risk.

One shudders to think what Machiavellian schemes may be unfolding.
Trump doesn't need the ECVs to be awarded to him.

All he needs is to stop Biden getting 270.

The result should be 306-232. If 37 Biden ECVs get voided then it's 269-232 - in that situation Biden does not win - it goes to the House of Representatives.
The House? That has a Dem majority.

But I think by that time it would be getting pretty frisky on the streets.
No.

The House votes on the basis of State delegations - each State delegation gets one vote.

The Republicans have a majority of State delegations I'm afraid.

And yes, I'm sure it will get very frisky on the streets.
The US would become seen as a failed state . I doubt that Trump would be recognised as the legitimate leader by the Western world.
There is not a great deal the Western world could do about an American coup d'etat.
But the USA would cease to be seen as a democracy - no different to China.It is unlikely to come to that in that I seem to recall that the decision of the Electoral College has to be approved by a combined session of Congress in January. Normally that is but a rubber stamp, but under these circumstances that would not be so. The Democrats would be joined by Republicans such as Romney, Sasse and Collins in blocking such an attempt by Trump to usurp normal process.

That is the danger, the loss of authority. Doubtless Russia and China will already be pointing to the dangers and weaknesses of liberal democracy.

DecrepiterJohnL · November 2020

The Crown. I'm one series behind everyone else, having just watched the first episode of series three (Wilson and Blunt). The tone has changed. In light of this, and the criticism here and elsewhere of the fourth series, I guessed the writer's age to be 55 to 60, and Wikipedia confirms he is 57.

The difference, istm, is that, given his age, the writer depended on historical research. Now he is the right age to remember events from the Thatcher government onwards and perhaps the preceding Labour government, including the exposure of Blunt (although he also seemed to have watched Alan Bennett's A Question of Attribution).

There was a similar change from Life On Mars to Ashes To Ashes. The first an affectionate pastiche of 70s shows like The Sweeney, the later series had a harder edge apparently more informed by 1980s news headlines.

rpjs · November 2020

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

MikeL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeL said:
FPT - Re Wayne County deadlocked on certifying vote:

What happens next?
Apparently it goes up one level to the State Board of Canvassers and they do it.
Which has four member, yes? Two GoP, two Dems. Chairman is Dem, so presumably has casting vote. Gets through, no?

Right result in the end but if the officials don't accept the votes of the public then they don't believe in Democracy. That's quite bad.
No, according to the Guardian blog they have to vote 3-1 to decide it:

Republicans blocked Michigan’s largest county from certifying the results of the 3 November election on Tuesday, an alarming development that leaves wiggle room for Donald Trump in a state he lost by around 146,000 votes.

The four-member board of canvassers in Wayne County, which includes Detroit, deadlocked along partisan lines on Tuesday over certifying the election results. Joe Biden carried the county by nearly 323,000 votes. The decision essentially leaves certification up to the Michigan state board of canvassers, according to the Washington Post. The board is split along partisan lines and must approve election results with at least a 3-1 vote, according to Bridge Michigan.
And then it winds up in court in front of a judge who is peeved at having to sort out the bleeding obvious because some adults are acting like 3 year olds.

Even if they swing Michigan to Trump, he still loses the election
Ok, so there's a good chance the State Board confirms the vote anyway, but if it doesn't it goes to a judge. That judge cannot however decide what the election result should be. I wouldn't think that's within his remit. All he can do is send it back to the Canvassers and say 'You sort it out - with a rerun of the election if need be.'

The worst that is going to happen is that the Michigan ECV's are effectively void, which as you indicate won't cause the result of the election to be overturned.

I suppose the judge could perhaps say the Canvassers were not acting in good faith?

All suggests delay rather than an overturning of the Presidential election. Dammit, Biden won by 6m votes! Are they asking for civil unrest?
Why would the Republicans just pull this stunt in Michigan?

Do the same thing in a couple of other key States and bingo Trump wins.

Now hopefully the Courts would intervene to stop it but who knows? This is the USA - anything goes.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be remarkably complacent about the whole thing.

How much chance Trump has I don't know but I wouldn't dream of risking my life savings backing Biden at 1.05.
I'm too lazy to do the arith but Trump has to pull the stunt in quite a number of States because failure to certify the result does not automatically hand the ECVs to him. I don't think the situation has arisen before but I would imagine the best Trump could hope for would be a voiding of the results. If the Canvassers or the Courts tried to award the ECVs to Trump and as a result he remained in office I really do think there would be civil unrest.

I come back to my considered view that this is all a game of stalling. There must be very high stakes involved for so many people to put so much at risk.

One shudders to think what Machiavellian schemes may be unfolding.
Trump doesn't need the ECVs to be awarded to him.

All he needs is to stop Biden getting 270.

The result should be 306-232. If 37 Biden ECVs get voided then it's 269-232 - in that situation Biden does not win - it goes to the House of Representatives.

Stopping states from certifying electors is not going to win it for Trump: he has to use legal shenanigans to flip enough states that Biden won; simply suppressing them won’t be enough. The Twelfth Amendment states that the winner of the Electoral Vote must “be [by] a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed” so if Trump was to somehow get Michigan’s process stalled so that its 16 electors cannot be appointed by December 14th, then Biden’s target reduces from to 270 to 263, and so on. Basically, for this trick to work, Trump would need to pull it off not just in Michigan but all of Arizona, Georgia, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin too.

williamglenn · November 2020

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1328883405837258753?s=21

DecrepiterJohnL · November 2020

Schools are going down like ninepins, apparently.

School attendance has plunged into chaos, headteachers have warned, as the proportion sending classes home to self-isolate has doubled in a week.

Between 18 and 20 per cent of schools sent 30 or more pupils home last week to isolate, up from 8-9 per cent the week before, according to the latest official data published by the Department for Education (DfE).
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/11/17/school-attendance-plunges-chaos-amid-huge-rise-whole-classes/

MikeL · November 2020

Good news!

UPDATE: Wayne County Board of Canvassers has now REVOTED 4-0 TO CERTIFY WAYNE COUNTY PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION RESULTS.

See link for CNN report plus video of Michigan Secretary of State reporting the news on Cuomo programme on CNN:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/17/politics/michigan-detroit-election-results/index.html

DecrepiterJohnL · November 2020

They laughed when I said I wanted to be a comedian Boris won by running on Labour's platform and shooting red foxes. This includes the ones Labour nicked from the Democrats.

The key areas of Boris Johnson's 'green industrial revolution'
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/17/the-key-areas-of-boris-johnsons-green-industrial-revolution

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