There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
The Times isn't without it's Trumpian Fruitcakes. Parris is an aberration. Even The completely bonkers James Delingpole wrote for them at one time.
There would have been more summits and renegotiations around Lisbon. It also would've provided a pressure valve for sceptical sentiment. The total absence from major political parties of any alternative to integrating more and more (excepting only the single currency/Schengen) is why scepticism grew so much.
The country was split, but the political class was not. To govern is to choose, but so is to elect. The political class did not reflect those they governed, nor did they attempt to do so nor did they wish to consult the electorate.
Blair/Brown should not have reneged. That sort of short-sighted idiocy is precisely why Scottish independence remains on the agenda. In a fantasy of creating a perpetual fiefdom they instituted a permanent political division. Likewise, in a fantasy of making the UK more and more pro-EU, they promised sceptics a say before an election then denied it afterwards.
Mr Tokyo is a Europhile/Globalist who thinks that under absolutely no circumstances should politicians compromise with the electorate.
Look, I didn't make any claims about what someone should or shouldn't do, I'm just talking about what would have happened if things had been done. Euroskeptics always had unrealistic ideas about what the rest of the EU would do if Britain said "no" to things. They thought that if Britain left the EU, other nations would also leave the EU, and the EU would change itself into something else. What actually happened was that the rest of the EU said, "hmm, the British left the EU, that seems like a bad idea, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯".
If the British had voted down Lisbon, they'd have expected that the EU would respond by changing into a vaguely-defined thing that was more to their taste. It wouldn't have changed, it would have been the same, but slightly more dysfunctional. The idea that this would have relieved the pressure among the British to leave is not sensible.
However, at this time, the pressure was not amongst "the British" in general at all. Poll after poll left showed EU to be at the very bottom of people's concerns, even after decades of tabloid tub-thumping, and also, to a great extent, even after Cameron's referendum announcement, much later on. It was only Farage's success in weaponising the 2015 migration crisis that substantially reversed this trend. At the time discussed, of the Lisbon Treaty, we would have been talking about 15-20% of British citizens even at all vaguely interested, at the very most.
Basically, our future needs to be strongly rooted in our past and we need to stop seeing national identity and patriotism as problem.
What does that mean in practice? Nothing. It's a completely vacuous statement. You simply invoke this "sentiment" whenever someone says something you disagree with as somehow being "anti Britain".
Contrary to the image you have of me in your head, I like Britain and I am a product of its cultural history and shared values. However that doesn't mean its history, its present, and its future is without criticism.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
If you hear him speak about his son, his wife about his friends this is no machine. He’s very warm human being. A long way from a machine politician. So what if he’s been in the senate? Who cares? Watch his McCain eulogy and tell me this is a machine.
This man could have retired, played golf and dined out on the lecture circuit as Obama’s number 1. That’s what a machine politician fat on pork would have done aged 78. Instead he got off his backside, took on and defeated one of the most dangerous men to occupy the White House. That deserves respect.
Of course its a machine man. Politics is acting for ugly people. Bill Clinton could do the schmoozing too, but you wouldnt want to leave your teenage daughter with him.
Try reading that with an Alf Garnett accent!
Obviously I cant match your inner West Ham Roger, but I could offer you North Antrim instead :-)
I can't do North Antrim. (OT. Do you know someone called Alistaire (?) McGuckian)
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
I disagree
He has impressed me so far but it is very early days
I'm afraid he hasn't impressed me yet.
So far he's said he will govern for all Americans but I see no signs whatsoever of him reaching out across divides. Instead he seems more interested in appeasing his left-wing base as his rumoured cabinet appointments reported in The Times today show.
He likes trains though. I suppose that's something.
You keep banging on about "left wing".
What is your definition of "left wing"? Mine would be personified by, let me think? Jeremy Corbyn, not Joe Biden (or John Major).
I dunno, people who cheer Biden's victory and compare it to the 1997 Labour landslide might be a good example.
People like that??
Indeed! And Piazzale Loreto as noted down thread by Dura Ace would be too good for us!
I did party like it was 1997, on the news of Biden being called. I am looking forward to doing the same in a UK GE or two.
There would have been more summits and renegotiations around Lisbon. It also would've provided a pressure valve for sceptical sentiment. The total absence from major political parties of any alternative to integrating more and more (excepting only the single currency/Schengen) is why scepticism grew so much.
If they couldn't pass Lisbon they couldn't have passed anything. The thing the British euroskeptics vaguely wanted (apart from leaving) of a loose trading arrangement wasn't really wanted by anybody else, and even if it had been they never really had a workable idea, so it wouldn't have happened. They'd have just muddled through with what they've got, which would have been basically the same but with more grandstanding last-minute brinksmanship and little bungs to paper over the unanimity requirements, it wouldn't have been particularly edifying.
So the British would have felt like they'd voted for change, like you they'd have expected that something would happen, and they'd have got more of the same. That's not a pressure valve - it's increasing the pressure, and not releasing it.
Guess what really did increase the pressure so we eventually left?
That's right. Not getting a vote on the Lisbon Treaty.
It's rather sweet that you think this is all about me but you can read about the counterproductive behaviour of your side here: .
What do you mean by counterproductive? What do you think people are trying to "produce".
@Casino_Royale, in his position as "the most sensitive PB poster", is getting upset because people he doesn't like are happy at the moment and he doesn't like it.
Interesting stats from ONS on those in Employment by place of birth;
Jul Sept (vs April June) ('000) Total: 32,515 (-77) UK: 29,352 (+244) EU27: 1,874 (-287) - lowest since Dec 2014 Other: 1,287 (-27)
These are preliminary stats, subject to revision - but it may well be many EU27 nationals have gone home, as the number of EU27 unemployed has only risen by 22,000 and the number of economically inactive has fallen by 52,000.
That fits with the anecdotes from some businesses (e.g. restaurants) not being able to re-open post-lockdown.
I have noticed that guys doing roofing work around my way are now Scots, where a year ago it was East Europeans.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
Most your right wing rants on here would suggest that you, like Philip Thompson, are pro-Trump, you just dont have the guts to admit it. If you were American you would be a Trump supporter and proud of it.
Its a lie to suggest that I am pro Trump, I have made my opposition to Trump abundantly clear as well as the reasons I oppose Trump. I have also disagreed with Casino on what might be considered "woke" issues.
It seems you're such a blinded partisan driven mad by Brexit that any Brexiteer is as one to you. And all those Brexiteers are a cartoon caricature to you too. I feel sorry for you, a man driven so mad that you keep lashing out at people ignorantly.
Taking out the Europe issue which is all you seem to be able to think about name a single thing that makes me like Trump in your eyes please. Or can you not think of anything except Europe, Europe, Europe?
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
If you hear him speak about his son, his wife about his friends this is no machine. He’s very warm human being. A long way from a machine politician. So what if he’s been in the senate? Who cares? Watch his McCain eulogy and tell me this is a machine.
This man could have retired, played golf and dined out on the lecture circuit as Obama’s number 1. That’s what a machine politician fat on pork would have done aged 78. Instead he got off his backside, took on and defeated one of the most dangerous men to occupy the White House. That deserves respect.
Of course its a machine man. Politics is acting for ugly people. Bill Clinton could do the schmoozing too, but you wouldnt want to leave your teenage daughter with him.
Try reading that with an Alf Garnett accent!
Obviously I cant match your inner West Ham Roger, but I could offer you North Antrim instead :-)
I can't do North Antrim. (OT. Do you know someone called Alistaire (?) McGuckian)
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
If you hear him speak about his son, his wife about his friends this is no machine. He’s very warm human being. A long way from a machine politician. So what if he’s been in the senate? Who cares? Watch his McCain eulogy and tell me this is a machine.
This man could have retired, played golf and dined out on the lecture circuit as Obama’s number 1. That’s what a machine politician fat on pork would have done aged 78. Instead he got off his backside, took on and defeated one of the most dangerous men to occupy the White House. That deserves respect.
Of course its a machine man. Politics is acting for ugly people. Bill Clinton could do the schmoozing too, but you wouldnt want to leave your teenage daughter with him.
Well today, personally feeling somewhat depressed in lockdown and feeling a bit old and tired in my 40s, I look to a man giving it his all and succeeding in his late 70s and feel inspired. If he can do that aged 78, there’s hope for all of us.
Not feeling more perky this morning with news of the vaccine?
Mr. JS, am I missing something? Isn't Biden assured of winning in Wisconsin, barring a black swan?
The swan in question is the Wisconsin Supreme Court, which unlike PA and MI is GOP-run and quite hackish, so it at least makes sense that it would be considered more likely to flip than PA and MI.
Although not quite as hackish as it was earlier in the year. It was 5-2 GOP hacks at the start of the year but the Dems won an upset election udring the first wave to take it to 4-3.
So it only takes one hack to value democracy over facisim to stop a coup in Wisconsin
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
The Times isn't without it's Trumpian Fruitcakes. Parris is an aberration. Even The completely bonkers James Delingpole wrote for them at one time.
You know Matthew Parris has been vociferously attacking Brexit for almost 4 years, don't you?
He takes all sorts of positions on all sorts of issues. That's what makes him so interesting, even when I don't agree with him.
I know that its fashionable to make UK / US comparisons as apparently we are so close culturally. We we really aren't. There is a world of difference between the Brexit wars here where both sides push opinions as facts. In America we have the GOP pushing lies as fact. There is a difference.
We had our own legal scandal where the government was taken to court and it was found that it had broken the law. How outrageous it was printed for these traitor judges to uphold the law. That is very different to America where the GOP are going to judges with baseless lies and so far have been firmly rebutted much to the Outrage of the Faithful who believe the lies to be truth and truth to be lies.
In the UK there is absolutely no possibility of judges making partisan judgements to back one political side or another - the law is the law is the law. Not so in America, and if as suggested by @edmundintokyo we see GOP judges backing GOP lies for GOP political purposes then America really is in trouble.
A prediction. The next poll in the UK will show a drop in support for Johnson. He's already looking like yesterday's fish and chip paper.
The vaccine news might help Boris if there is a national surge of relief.
However fragrant a product if you mix it with a turd it'll never end up smelling of roses.
The credit will go elsewhere
Is that why Johnson's career ended finally after his first term as Mayor of London? Oh...wait...no..just more bollox analysis from you.
There's no sight quite as uplifting as felix in love......
And wrong again - am not a fan of Johnson but he has shown an ability to win big. That you cannot see it tells us all we need to know.
He did indeed win big in 2019. However, in the interests of objectivity and fair play, the win was against the worst, most unelectable, leader in the entire history of the Labour Party: an utterly vile racist with the most radical left-wing agenda in a generation. If you fail to see that it tells us all we need to know.
There would have been more summits and renegotiations around Lisbon. It also would've provided a pressure valve for sceptical sentiment. The total absence from major political parties of any alternative to integrating more and more (excepting only the single currency/Schengen) is why scepticism grew so much.
The country was split, but the political class was not. To govern is to choose, but so is to elect. The political class did not reflect those they governed, nor did they attempt to do so nor did they wish to consult the electorate.
Blair/Brown should not have reneged. That sort of short-sighted idiocy is precisely why Scottish independence remains on the agenda. In a fantasy of creating a perpetual fiefdom they instituted a permanent political division. Likewise, in a fantasy of making the UK more and more pro-EU, they promised sceptics a say before an election then denied it afterwards.
Mr Tokyo is a Europhile/Globalist who thinks that under absolutely no circumstances should politicians compromise with the electorate.
Look, I didn't make any claims about what someone should or shouldn't do, I'm just talking about what would have happened if things had been done. Euroskeptics always had unrealistic ideas about what the rest of the EU would do if Britain said "no" to things. They thought that if Britain left the EU, other nations would also leave the EU, and the EU would change itself into something else. What actually happened was that the rest of the EU said, "hmm, the British left the EU, that seems like a bad idea, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯".
If the British had voted down Lisbon, they'd have expected that the EU would respond by changing into a vaguely-defined thing that was more to their taste. It wouldn't have changed, it would have been the same, but slightly more dysfunctional. The idea that this would have relieved the pressure among the British to leave is not sensible.
However, at this time, the pressure was not amongst "the British" in general at all. Poll after poll left the EU at the very bottom of people's concerns, even after Cameron's referendum announcememt, until Farage manage to weaponise the 2015 migration crisis. At the time of the Lisbon Treaty we would have been talking about 15-20% of British citizens even vaguely interested, at the very most.
Right but that was also true of Cameron's referendum. The reason why it happened was because the 15-20% were part of the Conservative Party coalition, and also represented by very determined people in the parliamentary Conservative Party who were prepared to make trouble to get what they wanted. The reasons why they wanted to leave predated the Lisbon Treaty, and winning a referendum against the EU, then nothing about the EU changing, would have made them stronger, angrier and more determined, not the other way around.
I dunno, people who cheer Biden's victory and compare it to the 1997 Labour landslide might be a good example.
People like that??
Biden's victory is much more important and significant (Though obviously narrower). Neither the Tories nor Labour were an existential threat to democracy in 1997.
I agree Trump needed to leave for that and that alone, plus his general terrible behaviour.
But, please, spare us the self-righteous crowing of a new red dawn.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
The Times isn't without it's Trumpian Fruitcakes. Parris is an aberration. Even The completely bonkers James Delingpole wrote for them at one time.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
Then you're pushing the culture war narrative AGAIN, despite representing like you oppose it.
The most important thing is reigning in the "left-wing" happiness right?
It's rather sweet that you think this is all about me but you can read about the counterproductive behaviour of your side here:
Interesting stats from ONS on those in Employment by place of birth;
Jul Sept (vs April June) ('000) Total: 32,515 (-77) UK: 29,352 (+244) EU27: 1,874 (-287) - lowest since Dec 2014 Other: 1,287 (-27)
These are preliminary stats, subject to revision - but it may well be many EU27 nationals have gone home, as the number of EU27 unemployed has only risen by 22,000 and the number of economically inactive has fallen by 52,000.
On reflection "many EU nationals may have returned to their country of birth" - I suspect some at least already regarded the UK as "home".
My grandmother is a French citizen who has lived in the UK for around 60 years. I wonder how she'd present in these figures.
If she was 64 or under and not working she'd appear as "economically inactive". If she is over 64 she won't appear at all.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
The Times isn't without it's Trumpian Fruitcakes. Parris is an aberration. Even The completely bonkers James Delingpole wrote for them at one time.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
If you hear him speak about his son, his wife about his friends this is no machine. He’s very warm human being. A long way from a machine politician. So what if he’s been in the senate? Who cares? Watch his McCain eulogy and tell me this is a machine.
This man could have retired, played golf and dined out on the lecture circuit as Obama’s number 1. That’s what a machine politician fat on pork would have done aged 78. Instead he got off his backside, took on and defeated one of the most dangerous men to occupy the White House. That deserves respect.
Of course its a machine man. Politics is acting for ugly people. Bill Clinton could do the schmoozing too, but you wouldnt want to leave your teenage daughter with him.
Well today, personally feeling somewhat depressed in lockdown and feeling a bit old and tired in my 40s, I look to a man giving it his all and succeeding in his late 70s and feel inspired. If he can do that aged 78, there’s hope for all of us.
Not feeling more perky this morning with news of the vaccine?
I am.
Just down and wallowing in self pity. Lots going on at work and lockdown doesn’t me help let off steam. Probably need a vacation. You know how it is.
President Trump is planning to form a so-called leadership political action committee, a federal fund-raising vehicle that will potentially let him retain his hold on the Republican Party even when he is out of office, officials said on Monday.
There would have been more summits and renegotiations around Lisbon. It also would've provided a pressure valve for sceptical sentiment. The total absence from major political parties of any alternative to integrating more and more (excepting only the single currency/Schengen) is why scepticism grew so much.
If they couldn't pass Lisbon they couldn't have passed anything. The thing the British euroskeptics vaguely wanted (apart from leaving) of a loose trading arrangement wasn't really wanted by anybody else, and even if it had been they never really had a workable idea, so it wouldn't have happened. They'd have just muddled through with what they've got, which would have been basically the same but with more grandstanding last-minute brinksmanship and little bungs to paper over the unanimity requirements, it wouldn't have been particularly edifying.
So the British would have felt like they'd voted for change, like you they'd have expected that something would happen, and they'd have got more of the same. That's not a pressure valve - it's increasing the pressure, and not releasing it.
Guess what really did increase the pressure so we eventually left?
That's right. Not getting a vote on the Lisbon Treaty.
Maybe go back up-thread and read the rest of the conversation.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
If you hear him speak about his son, his wife about his friends this is no machine. He’s very warm human being. A long way from a machine politician. So what if he’s been in the senate? Who cares? Watch his McCain eulogy and tell me this is a machine.
This man could have retired, played golf and dined out on the lecture circuit as Obama’s number 1. That’s what a machine politician fat on pork would have done aged 78. Instead he got off his backside, took on and defeated one of the most dangerous men to occupy the White House. That deserves respect.
Of course its a machine man. Politics is acting for ugly people. Bill Clinton could do the schmoozing too, but you wouldnt want to leave your teenage daughter with him.
Well today, personally feeling somewhat depressed in lockdown and feeling a bit old and tired in my 40s, I look to a man giving it his all and succeeding in his late 70s and feel inspired. If he can do that aged 78, there’s hope for all of us.
Not feeling more perky this morning with news of the vaccine?
I am.
Just down and wallowing in self pity. Lots going on at work and lockdown doesn’t me help let off steam. Probably need a vacation. You know how it is.
Best of luck, Ive had 3 holidays cancelled on me so far this year.
Interesting to see how critical some are of the role of the Judiciary in the American system. Oh for the halcyon days when we were all lauding the independence of the Judiciary in the UK not so long ago. It's good to be reminded how apolitical judges are in the UK and among our allies.
It's important for the judiciary to ignore political pressure, in both countries. I suspect that when it comes to it, even Trump appointees among the judges will be reluctant to throw out votes without concrete evidence - peer pressure is also a thing, and judges who are seen to be political tools will be regarded with contempt by colleagues. The hallmark of conservative judges in the USA is that they are keen on precise, literal interpretation of the law, without attempting to "update" it for modern culture. That's a respectable view and has nothing to do with disenfranchising people.
Mr. JS, am I missing something? Isn't Biden assured of winning in Wisconsin, barring a black swan?
The swan in question is the Wisconsin Supreme Court, which unlike PA and MI is GOP-run and quite hackish, so it at least makes sense that it would be considered more likely to flip than PA and MI.
Trump can't be happy the Michigan court flipped. That would have been another, and more lucrative, option.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
Then you're pushing the culture war narrative AGAIN, despite representing like you oppose it.
The most important thing is reigning in the "left-wing" happiness right?
It's rather sweet that you think this is all about me but you can read about the counterproductive behaviour of your side here:
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
You're a good punter from what I've seen but you do allow a rather snide side to emerge rather too frequently for my taste. I know we all have our moments, but can't you just for once try and curb it? It's normal post an election victory for the winners to be a bit OTT and it's part n' parcel of politics that we have to endure a little gloating. You need some balance placed on your moral scales here. Donald Trump is a disgusting individual by any measure of human decency.
This is not the time to become a reactionary apologist. Leave that to Peter Hitchens, enveloped in a mire of his own bitterness and bile.
I dunno, people who cheer Biden's victory and compare it to the 1997 Labour landslide might be a good example.
People like that??
Biden's victory is much more important and significant (Though obviously narrower). Neither the Tories nor Labour were an existential threat to democracy in 1997.
I agree Trump needed to leave for that and that alone, plus his general terrible behaviour.
But, please, spare us the self-righteous crowing of a new red dawn.
I'm not sure what you're seeing, the GOP has done fine down ballot.
Former Brexit Party MEP Claire Fox has delivered a speech in the House of Lords attacking opponents of Boris Johnson's law-breaking Brexit bill, before voting against it herself by accident! You could not make it up
It's rather sweet that you think this is all about me but you can read about the counterproductive behaviour of your side here: .
What do you mean by counterproductive? What do you think people are trying to "produce".
@Casino_Royale, in his position as "the most sensitive PB poster", is getting upset because people he doesn't like are happy at the moment and he doesn't like it.
I was also thinking this about the Trumpists but liberal-minded people need to come up with some decoy things to pretend to like, to give excitable right-wingers something harmless to agitate against. I'm thinking maybe one of the less notable vegetables, endive or possibly chicory.
President Trump is planning to form a so-called leadership political action committee, a federal fund-raising vehicle that will potentially let him retain his hold on the Republican Party even when he is out of office, officials said on Monday.
This is interesting. I get the sense that a lot of what Trump is doing now is fund-raising and branding, and securing his position, for the future. Let's hope it doesn't spill over into more real problems.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
Most your right wing rants on here would suggest that you, like Philip Thompson, are pro-Trump, you just dont have the guts to admit it. If you were American you would be a Trump supporter and proud of it.
@Philip_Thompson and @Casino_Royale have said they would vote against Trump and both have been forthright (Philip especially, which is not to diminish Casino's comments).
I dunno, people who cheer Biden's victory and compare it to the 1997 Labour landslide might be a good example.
People like that??
Biden's victory is much more important and significant (Though obviously narrower). Neither the Tories nor Labour were an existential threat to democracy in 1997.
I agree Trump needed to leave for that and that alone, plus his general terrible behaviour.
But, please, spare us the self-righteous crowing of a new red dawn.
I'm not sure what you're seeing, the GOP has done fine down ballot.
Indeed.
The GOP outperformed Trump. Donald Trump was the liability on the ticket.
He now threatens to drag down the party with him. And that has big implications for the Senate battle.
There would have been more summits and renegotiations around Lisbon. It also would've provided a pressure valve for sceptical sentiment. The total absence from major political parties of any alternative to integrating more and more (excepting only the single currency/Schengen) is why scepticism grew so much.
The country was split, but the political class was not. To govern is to choose, but so is to elect. The political class did not reflect those they governed, nor did they attempt to do so nor did they wish to consult the electorate.
Blair/Brown should not have reneged. That sort of short-sighted idiocy is precisely why Scottish independence remains on the agenda. In a fantasy of creating a perpetual fiefdom they instituted a permanent political division. Likewise, in a fantasy of making the UK more and more pro-EU, they promised sceptics a say before an election then denied it afterwards.
Mr Tokyo is a Europhile/Globalist who thinks that under absolutely no circumstances should politicians compromise with the electorate.
Look, I didn't make any claims about what someone should or shouldn't do, I'm just talking about what would have happened if things had been done. Euroskeptics always had unrealistic ideas about what the rest of the EU would do if Britain said "no" to things. They thought that if Britain left the EU, other nations would also leave the EU, and the EU would change itself into something else. What actually happened was that the rest of the EU said, "hmm, the British left the EU, that seems like a bad idea, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯".
If the British had voted down Lisbon, they'd have expected that the EU would respond by changing into a vaguely-defined thing that was more to their taste. It wouldn't have changed, it would have been the same, but slightly more dysfunctional. The idea that this would have relieved the pressure among the British to leave is not sensible.
A semi-detached status would have been codified in a new EU treaty with legal force (opt-outs from ever closer union, crime & justice, protections against eurozone block majority voting, restrictions on welfare/residency benefits with a national red card veto on some areas of importance to us, and a mechanism for some powers to flow back too by agreement) that would have settled the issue for at least another 20-25 years.
I know you don't like that and you didn't even like the opt-outs the Brits already had but that was the realpolitik required to retain us as a member with popular consent.
You have to remember that Brexiteers were a small minority until fairly recently, including me.
It was the experience over Lisbon and the failure to offer meaningful reform after that that led many of us to conclude it was time to put up or shut up.
I hadn't been aware she was married to Jesse Norman. Johnson likes to keep his appointees close to home.
Had a momentary brain freeze and was wondering why I hadn't heard more about one of the current specimens of Tory 'meritocracy' being married to the late black female opera singer.
Basically, our future needs to be strongly rooted in our past and we need to stop seeing national identity and patriotism as problem.
What does that mean in practice? Nothing. It's a completely vacuous statement. You simply invoke this "sentiment" whenever someone says something you disagree with as somehow being "anti Britain".
Contrary to the image you have of me in your head, I like Britain and I am a product of its cultural history and shared values. However that doesn't mean its history, its present, and its future is without criticism.
Why don't you read Sunder Katwala who shares much of your politics, because it's his argument and you might find it more convincing than me?
You're getting angry because you fear there's something in it.
President Trump is planning to form a so-called leadership political action committee, a federal fund-raising vehicle that will potentially let him retain his hold on the Republican Party even when he is out of office, officials said on Monday.
The long term reputational damage to the US caused by one man is extraordinary . He's done to the States what Gerald Ratner did to his own jewelry company. There has to be something wrong with their system that one rogue president can wreak this kind of havoc
Hancock on approval in days after licence application.
"They have been looking at the data all the way through rather than waiting, as is normal, for the end of the process for all the data to be then handed over for them to start looking at it," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
"That means the regulator will be able to make a judgment on whether this is clinically safe, not just the company's word for it, but do that within a matter of days from a formal licence application."
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
I disagree
He has impressed me so far but it is very early days
I'm afraid he hasn't impressed me yet.
So far he's said he will govern for all Americans but I see no signs whatsoever of him reaching out across divides. Instead he seems more interested in appeasing his left-wing base as his rumoured cabinet appointments reported in The Times today show.
He likes trains though. I suppose that's something.
You keep banging on about "left wing".
What is your definition of "left wing"? Mine would be personified by, let me think? Jeremy Corbyn, not Joe Biden (or John Major).
I dunno, people who cheer Biden's victory and compare it to the 1997 Labour landslide might be a good example.
People like that??
Indeed! And Piazzale Loreto as noted down thread by Dura Ace would be too good for us!
I did party like it was 1997, on the news of Biden being called. I am looking forward to doing the same in a UK GE or two.
Right, so maybe let's both save ourselves some time and avoid the silly questions in future then.
A semi-detached status would have been codified in a new EU treaty with legal force (opt-outs from ever closer union, crime & justice, protections against eurozone block majority voting, restrictions on welfare/residency benefits with a national red card veto on some areas of importance to us, and a mechanism for some powers to flow back too by agreement) that would have settled the issue for at least another 20-25 years.
It wouldn't, such a thing would have been defeated by the unanimity requirement, and you'd have got really angry that the EU failed to do what you expected.
Interesting stats from ONS on those in Employment by place of birth;
Jul Sept (vs April June) ('000) Total: 32,515 (-77) UK: 29,352 (+244) EU27: 1,874 (-287) - lowest since Dec 2014 Other: 1,287 (-27)
These are preliminary stats, subject to revision - but it may well be many EU27 nationals have gone home, as the number of EU27 unemployed has only risen by 22,000 and the number of economically inactive has fallen by 52,000.
On reflection "many EU nationals may have returned to their country of birth" - I suspect some at least already regarded the UK as "home".
My grandmother is a French citizen who has lived in the UK for around 60 years. I wonder how she'd present in these figures.
If she was 64 or under and not working she'd appear as "economically inactive". If she is over 64 she won't appear at all.
A number of EU nationals of my aquaintance, who lost their jobs due to COVID, have gone back to their home countries. In nearly every case, it is because being unemployed in the house/flat you own in your home town (or your parents place) is cheaper than being unemployed while renting in London.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
If you hear him speak about his son, his wife about his friends this is no machine. He’s very warm human being. A long way from a machine politician. So what if he’s been in the senate? Who cares? Watch his McCain eulogy and tell me this is a machine.
This man could have retired, played golf and dined out on the lecture circuit as Obama’s number 1. That’s what a machine politician fat on pork would have done aged 78. Instead he got off his backside, took on and defeated one of the most dangerous men to occupy the White House. That deserves respect.
Of course its a machine man. Politics is acting for ugly people. Bill Clinton could do the schmoozing too, but you wouldnt want to leave your teenage daughter with him.
Well today, personally feeling somewhat depressed in lockdown and feeling a bit old and tired in my 40s, I look to a man giving it his all and succeeding in his late 70s and feel inspired. If he can do that aged 78, there’s hope for all of us.
Not feeling more perky this morning with news of the vaccine?
I am.
Just down and wallowing in self pity. Lots going on at work and lockdown doesn’t me help let off steam. Probably need a vacation. You know how it is.
I do.
Get out for a walk in the countryside by yourself, even if only for 45 minutes. Sack off a meeting or use your lunch hour. Say you had a family emergency - anything to get out.
It always really helps me - the hardest part is getting out the front door.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
I disagree
He has impressed me so far but it is very early days
I'm afraid he hasn't impressed me yet.
So far he's said he will govern for all Americans but I see no signs whatsoever of him reaching out across divides. Instead he seems more interested in appeasing his left-wing base as his rumoured cabinet appointments reported in The Times today show.
He likes trains though. I suppose that's something.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
It's always this way - the same over Blair in 97 and Obama in 08. Left-wing leaders are amazing at raising hopes amongst the young and impressionable and even better at disappointing them.
From my experience of watching American politics, I'm pretty sure that without some 9/11-scale event, Biden's presidency will:
- have a super-optimistic first three-six months - get frustrated as its agenda gets bogged down in Congress and the Supreme Court over the following year - be eviscerated in the mid-terms - do nothing for the remaining two years, except some PC virtue signalling.
Maybe that's an improvement on Trump, but it's hardly what America needs now.
I dunno, people who cheer Biden's victory and compare it to the 1997 Labour landslide might be a good example.
People like that??
Biden's victory is much more important and significant (Though obviously narrower). Neither the Tories nor Labour were an existential threat to democracy in 1997.
I agree Trump needed to leave for that and that alone, plus his general terrible behaviour.
But, please, spare us the self-righteous crowing of a new red dawn.
I'm not sure what you're seeing, the GOP has done fine down ballot.
Oh, I quite agree - I mean the reaction of people to Biden's win is as if he's just swept the earth, vanquished conservatives everywhere and ushered in a new red age.
(When I say "red" I mean red as in socialist, probably a bit confusing where the US is concerned given how they colour up the Republicans)
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
Then you're pushing the culture war narrative AGAIN, despite representing like you oppose it.
The most important thing is reigning in the "left-wing" happiness right?
It's rather sweet that you think this is all about me but you can read about the counterproductive behaviour of your side here:
Interesting stats from ONS on those in Employment by place of birth;
Jul Sept (vs April June) ('000) Total: 32,515 (-77) UK: 29,352 (+244) EU27: 1,874 (-287) - lowest since Dec 2014 Other: 1,287 (-27)
These are preliminary stats, subject to revision - but it may well be many EU27 nationals have gone home, as the number of EU27 unemployed has only risen by 22,000 and the number of economically inactive has fallen by 52,000.
That fits with the anecdotes from some businesses (e.g. restaurants) not being able to re-open post-lockdown.
I have noticed that guys doing roofing work around my way are now Scots, where a year ago it was East Europeans.
Interesting to see how critical some are of the role of the Judiciary in the American system. Oh for the halcyon days when we were all lauding the independence of the Judiciary in the UK not so long ago. It's good to be reminded how apolitical judges are in the UK and among our allies.
It's important for the judiciary to ignore political pressure, in both countries. I suspect that when it comes to it, even Trump appointees among the judges will be reluctant to throw out votes without concrete evidence - peer pressure is also a thing, and judges who are seen to be political tools will be regarded with contempt by colleagues. The hallmark of conservative judges in the USA is that they are keen on precise, literal interpretation of the law, without attempting to "update" it for modern culture. That's a respectable view and has nothing to do with disenfranchising people.
That's a pretty rose tinted view of a number of Trump appointments to the Federal Bench. Some of who are barely qualified as judges.
There would have been more summits and renegotiations around Lisbon. It also would've provided a pressure valve for sceptical sentiment. The total absence from major political parties of any alternative to integrating more and more (excepting only the single currency/Schengen) is why scepticism grew so much.
If they couldn't pass Lisbon they couldn't have passed anything. The thing the British euroskeptics vaguely wanted (apart from leaving) of a loose trading arrangement wasn't really wanted by anybody else, and even if it had been they never really had a workable idea, so it wouldn't have happened. They'd have just muddled through with what they've got, which would have been basically the same but with more grandstanding last-minute brinksmanship and little bungs to paper over the unanimity requirements, it wouldn't have been particularly edifying.
So the British would have felt like they'd voted for change, like you they'd have expected that something would happen, and they'd have got more of the same. That's not a pressure valve - it's increasing the pressure, and not releasing it.
Guess what really did increase the pressure so we eventually left?
That's right. Not getting a vote on the Lisbon Treaty.
Maybe go back up-thread and read the rest of the conversation.
Err, I did?
Your argument seems to be any renegotiation would be pointless, so we shouldn't have got a vote, and leaving the EU was also pointless and stupid, and so we should not have got a vote on that either.
You seem to think we should just suck it up, and would no doubt blame the resulting divisions on others.
You're a classic example of a globalist liberal who lives in an elitist bubble entirely convinced of their own self-righteousness and contemptuous of anyone else who disagrees with you.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
Most your right wing rants on here would suggest that you, like Philip Thompson, are pro-Trump, you just dont have the guts to admit it. If you were American you would be a Trump supporter and proud of it.
I'm sorry if I don't neatly fit into your stereotype box, like Philip, but I wouldn't have voted for Trump.
I probably would have voted Republican for the Senate and almost definitely would have done for the House.
The data shows there was a significant number of Republicans who thought the same.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
It's always this way - the same over Blair in 97 and Obama in 08. Left-wing leaders are amazing at raising hopes amongst the young and impressionable and even better at disappointing them.
From my experience of watching American politics, I'm pretty sure that without some 9/11-scale event, Biden's presidency will:
- have a super-optimistic first three-six months - get frustrated as its agenda gets bogged down in Congress and the Supreme Court over the following year - be eviscerated in the mid-terms - do nothing for the remaining two years, except some PC virtue signalling.
Maybe that's an improvement on Trump, but it's hardly what America needs now.
To be more optimistic Blair's mid-term (2001) was pretty well a draw.
Interesting stats from ONS on those in Employment by place of birth;
Jul Sept (vs April June) ('000) Total: 32,515 (-77) UK: 29,352 (+244) EU27: 1,874 (-287) - lowest since Dec 2014 Other: 1,287 (-27)
These are preliminary stats, subject to revision - but it may well be many EU27 nationals have gone home, as the number of EU27 unemployed has only risen by 22,000 and the number of economically inactive has fallen by 52,000.
That fits with the anecdotes from some businesses (e.g. restaurants) not being able to re-open post-lockdown.
I have noticed that guys doing roofing work around my way are now Scots, where a year ago it was East Europeans.
i'm curious as to how you can tell.
I have lived in Scotland for over 30 years - I have picked up a bit of the lingo.
Your argument seems to be any renegotiation would be pointless, so we shouldn't have got a vote, and leaving the EU was also pointless and stupid, and so we should not have got a vote on that either.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
It's always this way - the same over Blair in 97 and Obama in 08. Left-wing leaders are amazing at raising hopes amongst the young and impressionable and even better at disappointing them.
From my experience of watching American politics, I'm pretty sure that without some 9/11-scale event, Biden's presidency will:
- have a super-optimistic first three-six months - get frustrated as its agenda gets bogged down in Congress and the Supreme Court over the following year - be eviscerated in the mid-terms - do nothing for the remaining two years, except some PC virtue signalling.
Maybe that's an improvement on Trump, but it's hardly what America needs now.
That would be a vast improvement over Trump. Nothing is sometimes a good start.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
You're a good punter from what I've seen but you do allow a rather snide side to emerge rather too frequently for my taste. I know we all have our moments, but can't you just for once try and curb it? It's normal post an election victory for the winners to be a bit OTT and it's part n' parcel of politics that we have to endure a little gloating. You need some balance placed on your moral scales here. Donald Trump is a disgusting individual by any measure of human decency.
This is not the time to become a reactionary apologist. Leave that to Peter Hitchens, enveloped in a mire of his own bitterness and bile.
G'day to y'all.
It's not me being snide; it's others being insufferable and utterly without grace in celebrating their victory, including taking pleasure at rubbing others noses in it. Just read the UK media commentary from those who are pro-Biden in response to this.
I'm sorry if you don't like it but I'll continue to call it as I see it.
Mr. JS, am I missing something? Isn't Biden assured of winning in Wisconsin, barring a black swan?
The swan in question is the Wisconsin Supreme Court, which unlike PA and MI is GOP-run and quite hackish, so it at least makes sense that it would be considered more likely to flip than PA and MI.
Trump can't be happy the Michigan court flipped. That would have been another, and more lucrative, option.
The result in WI is also much closer (20000 votes)
President Trump is planning to form a so-called leadership political action committee, a federal fund-raising vehicle that will potentially let him retain his hold on the Republican Party even when he is out of office, officials said on Monday.
The long term reputational damage to the US caused by one man is extraordinary . He's done to the States what Gerald Ratner did to his own jewelry company. There has to be something wrong with their system that one rogue president can wreak this kind of havoc
Blair did it to the UK and you still voted for him
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
I disagree
He has impressed me so far but it is very early days
I'm afraid he hasn't impressed me yet.
So far he's said he will govern for all Americans but I see no signs whatsoever of him reaching out across divides. Instead he seems more interested in appeasing his left-wing base as his rumoured cabinet appointments reported in The Times today show.
He likes trains though. I suppose that's something.
You keep banging on about "left wing".
What is your definition of "left wing"? Mine would be personified by, let me think? Jeremy Corbyn, not Joe Biden (or John Major).
I dunno, people who cheer Biden's victory and compare it to the 1997 Labour landslide might be a good example.
People like that??
Indeed! And Piazzale Loreto as noted down thread by Dura Ace would be too good for us!
I did party like it was 1997, on the news of Biden being called. I am looking forward to doing the same in a UK GE or two.
In 1997 Blair got a majority of 179, Biden currently leads in the EC 279 to 214, it is not 1997 or even the 365 to 173 EC votes Obama won by in 2008.
On current polling if Starmer does become PM it will only be with SNP or LD support, again there is near zero chance of a Labour majority in 2024 let alone a 1997 style Labour majority
@Philip_Thompson and @Casino_Royale have said they would vote against Trump and both have been forthright (Philip especially, which is not to diminish Casino's comments).
Neither of them are an Out-And-Proud Level 99 Trumpaloompa like you (who would lick Trump where he shits) but their sympathies are obvious.
It's not about who they would vote for, it's more about the vibe.
I dunno, people who cheer Biden's victory and compare it to the 1997 Labour landslide might be a good example.
People like that??
Biden's victory is much more important and significant (Though obviously narrower). Neither the Tories nor Labour were an existential threat to democracy in 1997.
They should mint a special medal to Pfizer for not leaking the news to the press before the election.
Mr. Pulpstar, if recent form is a useful guide, they'll wait until it's too late to be practically advantageous and then formally drop the bill after it's clearly already dead.
Interesting stats from ONS on those in Employment by place of birth;
Jul Sept (vs April June) ('000) Total: 32,515 (-77) UK: 29,352 (+244) EU27: 1,874 (-287) - lowest since Dec 2014 Other: 1,287 (-27)
These are preliminary stats, subject to revision - but it may well be many EU27 nationals have gone home, as the number of EU27 unemployed has only risen by 22,000 and the number of economically inactive has fallen by 52,000.
That fits with the anecdotes from some businesses (e.g. restaurants) not being able to re-open post-lockdown.
I have noticed that guys doing roofing work around my way are now Scots, where a year ago it was East Europeans.
i'm curious as to how you can tell.
I have lived in Scotland for over 30 years - I have picked up a bit of the lingo.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
It's always this way - the same over Blair in 97 and Obama in 08. Left-wing leaders are amazing at raising hopes amongst the young and impressionable and even better at disappointing them.
From my experience of watching American politics, I'm pretty sure that without some 9/11-scale event, Biden's presidency will:
- have a super-optimistic first three-six months - get frustrated as its agenda gets bogged down in Congress and the Supreme Court over the following year - be eviscerated in the mid-terms - do nothing for the remaining two years, except some PC virtue signalling.
Maybe that's an improvement on Trump, but it's hardly what America needs now.
Yep, it's striking that the accession of e.g. BJ engendered no such unrealistic and hyperbolic expectations.
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
You're a good punter from what I've seen but you do allow a rather snide side to emerge rather too frequently for my taste. I know we all have our moments, but can't you just for once try and curb it? It's normal post an election victory for the winners to be a bit OTT and it's part n' parcel of politics that we have to endure a little gloating. You need some balance placed on your moral scales here. Donald Trump is a disgusting individual by any measure of human decency.
This is not the time to become a reactionary apologist. Leave that to Peter Hitchens, enveloped in a mire of his own bitterness and bile.
G'day to y'all.
It's not me being snide; it's others being insufferable and utterly without grace in celebrating their victory, including taking pleasure at rubbing others noses in it. Just read the UK media commentary from those who are pro-Biden in response to this.
I'm sorry if you don't like it but I'll continue to call it as I see it.
"the naughty people celebrating the racist being voted out of office turned me into a racist" defence again I see.
Salisbury convention applies in reverse. The Lords are *upholding* legislation promised in the government's election manifesto against the attempt by the government to overturn it.
As Trump had nothing to do with it, but would definitely have claimed that he had, it's reasonable for the organization to act in a way that will guard against its work being politicized.
President Trump is planning to form a so-called leadership political action committee, a federal fund-raising vehicle that will potentially let him retain his hold on the Republican Party even when he is out of office, officials said on Monday.
The long term reputational damage to the US caused by one man is extraordinary . He's done to the States what Gerald Ratner did to his own jewelry company. There has to be something wrong with their system that one rogue president can wreak this kind of havoc
Blair did it to the UK and you still voted for him
If you're referring to the Iraq War, Blair got more (IIRC) support from IDS and the Tories than he did from his own party. So if there's been a Tory Government in 2003 the situation would have remained the same.
Posting again - but glorious summary of all the punditry takes on "what Biden's election means for Britain:
Biden’s Victory Is A Disaster For Boris Johnson
The whole world can rejoice that after four years in which the US was led by a vindictive, capricious narcissist, it will now have a president who takes a calm look at things and seeks to build bridges. Except with Britain where, because of a thing Johnson wrote four years ago, there’s going to be a total diplomatic freeze.
President Trump is planning to form a so-called leadership political action committee, a federal fund-raising vehicle that will potentially let him retain his hold on the Republican Party even when he is out of office, officials said on Monday.
The long term reputational damage to the US caused by one man is extraordinary . He's done to the States what Gerald Ratner did to his own jewelry company. There has to be something wrong with their system that one rogue president can wreak this kind of havoc
Blair did it to the UK and you still voted for him
If you're referring to the Iraq War, Blair got more (IIRC) support from IDS and the Tories than he did from his own party. So if there's been a Tory Government in 2003 the situation would have remained the same.
Had Ken Clarke won the Tory leadership in 2001 and got a hung parliament in 2005 though he would likely have done a deal with Charles Kennedy to become PM and we would likely have withdrawn troops from Iraq shortly after.
IDS becoming Tory leader in 2001 was crucial in both stopping the Euro but also giving Blair the support he needed to ensure he could continue to support Bush in the Iraq War
Laura 'the sourcerer' K there. Has anyone been keeping count of how many times her inside track on BJ party thinking has actually been the inside track?
Basically, our future needs to be strongly rooted in our past and we need to stop seeing national identity and patriotism as problem.
What does that mean in practice? Nothing. It's a completely vacuous statement. You simply invoke this "sentiment" whenever someone says something you disagree with as somehow being "anti Britain".
Contrary to the image you have of me in your head, I like Britain and I am a product of its cultural history and shared values. However that doesn't mean its history, its present, and its future is without criticism.
Why don't you read Sunder Katwala who shares much of your politics, because it's his argument and you might find it more convincing than me?
You're getting angry because you fear there's something in it.
I don't think you really know what my "politics" are.
Posting again - but glorious summary of all the punditry takes on "what Biden's election means for Britain:
Biden’s Victory Is A Disaster For Boris Johnson
The whole world can rejoice that after four years in which the US was led by a vindictive, capricious narcissist, it will now have a president who takes a calm look at things and seeks to build bridges. Except with Britain where, because of a thing Johnson wrote four years ago, there’s going to be a total diplomatic freeze.
Of course, Boris wrote that stuff about Obama to ingratiate himself with the Brexit base, when they were harrumphing about the latter's 'back of the queue' remark. Now it's became a major spanner in the Brexit works. Typical Boris: all tactics, no strategy.
Laura 'the sourcerer' K there. Has anyone been keeping count of how many times her inside track on BJ party thinking has actually been the inside track?
Laura 'the sourcerer' K there. Has anyone been keeping count of how many times her inside track on BJ party thinking has actually been the inside track?
As Trump had nothing to do with it, but would definitely have claimed that he had, it's reasonable for the organization to act in a way that will guard against its work being politicized.
What the company did was not do the early sampling they had previously planned. They decided to wait a bit longer. Then, when they looked at the trial, they had even more results than they expected.
I have little doubt that this was done to move any announcement to a less.... contraversial time.
Laura 'the sourcerer' K there. Has anyone been keeping count of how many times her inside track on BJ party thinking has actually been the inside track?
There is a real danger here that we get widespread civil unrest in America. There has always been an undercurrent of the right who fundamentally distrust the US government as an institution. In their heads Trump rescued the government for them and now the government is trying to steal it back.
We have already seen Trump whipping up armed militias. If - and it remains an if - this drags on then what happens? It won't just be Trump digging in against the thieves in the DNC and the traitors at Fox News and the cowards in the courts. It will be a significant portion of the 70m who voted for him in record numbers. And they are armed. Heavily armed.
I don't think we are yet at the moment of clarity. The President can seek legal challenge no matter how laughable that is. The challenges will be dismissed. At that point if the man digs in and encourages others to do so then things get very dangerous very quickly. The very legitimacy of the American system and American institutions are being attacked by the man in the White House, fuelling the anger of people who barely thought it legitimate to start with.
You paint a very bad picture but let us hope that the unthinkable does not happen
Joe Biden is a breath of fresh air offering conciliatory noises to the Republicans and this has to be the way forward, not just in the US but also here in the UK as we enter 2021
How can a 78 year old machine politican be a breath of fresh air ? He's simply more of the same.
What has age got to do with anything? Mandela was 77. I am inspired that you can make a difference in your 70s. Biden does not appear to be a machine anything.
Oh FFS he's been an elected politician since he was 29, he was VP for 8 years, Obama cheer led his campaign. His age is relevant as a marker for how long he has been in politics. Next year he has been part of the party machine for half a century and he didnt spend that time locked up in Robben island.
After the last few years of Trumpism having a machine politician in charge would be a breath of fresh air.
Aside from being wantonly offensive to people he didnt like Trumps time in office will probably get a better evaluation with the passage of time. Even Matthew Parris who is hardly your average Trump supporter was saying this weekend there were some things where Trump had a point.
I've read two articles in The Times on two consecutive days now where journalists have said the levels of triumphant left-wing gloating and fawning over Biden have started to make them feel pro-Trump.
I agree.
It's always this way - the same over Blair in 97 and Obama in 08. Left-wing leaders are amazing at raising hopes amongst the young and impressionable and even better at disappointing them.
From my experience of watching American politics, I'm pretty sure that without some 9/11-scale event, Biden's presidency will:
- have a super-optimistic first three-six months - get frustrated as its agenda gets bogged down in Congress and the Supreme Court over the following year - be eviscerated in the mid-terms - do nothing for the remaining two years, except some PC virtue signalling.
Maybe that's an improvement on Trump, but it's hardly what America needs now.
That would be a vast improvement over Trump. Nothing is sometimes a good start.
But it could doom the Democrats in 2024 as their disillusioned base don't turn out and moderates desert to the Republicans, if the latter find a decent candidate. (It didn't happen with Clinton and Obama of course, but Biden has much less charisma and is a much worse campaigner than either of those two).
To be fair, Boris Johnson is absolutely stupid enough to allow a second referendum on Scottish separation, vain enough to think he'd be an asset for the union side, and incompetent enough to screw up the negotiations to such an extent everywhere north of the Watford Gap becomes part of Greater Scotland.
@Philip_Thompson and @Casino_Royale have said they would vote against Trump and both have been forthright (Philip especially, which is not to diminish Casino's comments).
Neither of them are an Out-And-Proud Level 99 Trumpaloompa like you (who would lick Trump where he shits) but their sympathies are obvious.
It's not about who they would vote for, it's more about the vibe.
I supported Democrats across the board in these elections. I'm disappointed by the Senate results, hope the Democrats pick up both GA seats, have advocated statehood for PR and DC and said the Supreme Court needs fixing with extra Justices being inaugurated to make up for the GOPs shenanigans and Kavanaugh.
How's that vibe for you?
(I 100% would oppose AOC or Sanders style Democrats but the right of the Democrats are closer to my style of Tories than the GOP is right now.)
Comments
Before we get too excited we have no safety data.
Contrary to the image you have of me in your head, I like Britain and I am a product of its cultural history and shared values. However that doesn't mean its history, its present, and its future is without criticism.
I did party like it was 1997, on the news of Biden being called. I am looking forward to doing the same in a UK GE or two.
That's right. Not getting a vote on the Lisbon Treaty.
It seems you're such a blinded partisan driven mad by Brexit that any Brexiteer is as one to you. And all those Brexiteers are a cartoon caricature to you too. I feel sorry for you, a man driven so mad that you keep lashing out at people ignorantly.
Taking out the Europe issue which is all you seem to be able to think about name a single thing that makes me like Trump in your eyes please. Or can you not think of anything except Europe, Europe, Europe?
I am.
So it only takes one hack to value democracy over facisim to stop a coup in Wisconsin
He takes all sorts of positions on all sorts of issues. That's what makes him so interesting, even when I don't agree with him.
We had our own legal scandal where the government was taken to court and it was found that it had broken the law. How outrageous it was printed for these traitor judges to uphold the law. That is very different to America where the GOP are going to judges with baseless lies and so far have been firmly rebutted much to the Outrage of the Faithful who believe the lies to be truth and truth to be lies.
In the UK there is absolutely no possibility of judges making partisan judgements to back one political side or another - the law is the law is the law. Not so in America, and if as suggested by @edmundintokyo we see GOP judges backing GOP lies for GOP political purposes then America really is in trouble.
But, please, spare us the self-righteous crowing of a new red dawn.
You need to do some more critical thinking and challenge your pre-existing views from a number of angles.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/us/politics/trump-pac.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage
This is not the time to become a reactionary apologist. Leave that to Peter Hitchens, enveloped in a mire of his own bitterness and bile.
G'day to y'all.
You could not make it up
The GOP outperformed Trump. Donald Trump was the liability on the ticket.
He now threatens to drag down the party with him. And that has big implications for the Senate battle.
I know you don't like that and you didn't even like the opt-outs the Brits already had but that was the realpolitik required to retain us as a member with popular consent.
You have to remember that Brexiteers were a small minority until fairly recently, including me.
It was the experience over Lisbon and the failure to offer meaningful reform after that that led many of us to conclude it was time to put up or shut up.
You're getting angry because you fear there's something in it.
"They have been looking at the data all the way through rather than waiting, as is normal, for the end of the process for all the data to be then handed over for them to start looking at it," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
"That means the regulator will be able to make a judgment on whether this is clinically safe, not just the company's word for it, but do that within a matter of days from a formal licence application."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-latest-newscovid-vaccine-breakthrough-great-day/
https://twitter.com/BrindDon/status/1326094876677726209?s=20
https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1326095514782359558?s=20
Get out for a walk in the countryside by yourself, even if only for 45 minutes. Sack off a meeting or use your lunch hour. Say you had a family emergency - anything to get out.
It always really helps me - the hardest part is getting out the front door.
Once you're out you'll feel much better.
From my experience of watching American politics, I'm pretty sure that without some 9/11-scale event, Biden's presidency will:
- have a super-optimistic first three-six months
- get frustrated as its agenda gets bogged down in Congress and the Supreme Court over the following year
- be eviscerated in the mid-terms
- do nothing for the remaining two years, except some PC virtue signalling.
Maybe that's an improvement on Trump, but it's hardly what America needs now.
(When I say "red" I mean red as in socialist, probably a bit confusing where the US is concerned given how they colour up the Republicans)
Some of who are barely qualified as judges.
Your argument seems to be any renegotiation would be pointless, so we shouldn't have got a vote, and leaving the EU was also pointless and stupid, and so we should not have got a vote on that either.
You seem to think we should just suck it up, and would no doubt blame the resulting divisions on others.
You're a classic example of a globalist liberal who lives in an elitist bubble entirely convinced of their own self-righteousness and contemptuous of anyone else who disagrees with you.
I probably would have voted Republican for the Senate and almost definitely would have done for the House.
The data shows there was a significant number of Republicans who thought the same.
I'm sorry if you don't like it but I'll continue to call it as I see it.
On current polling if Starmer does become PM it will only be with SNP or LD support, again there is near zero chance of a Labour majority in 2024 let alone a 1997 style Labour majority
It's not about who they would vote for, it's more about the vibe.
https://twitter.com/kerpen/status/1325779872124383232
https://twitter.com/rowlsmanthorpe/status/1326101023916756992?s=20
So if there's been a Tory Government in 2003 the situation would have remained the same.
Biden’s Victory Is A Disaster For Boris Johnson
The whole world can rejoice that after four years in which the US was led by a vindictive, capricious narcissist, it will now have a president who takes a calm look at things and seeks to build bridges. Except with Britain where, because of a thing Johnson wrote four years ago, there’s going to be a total diplomatic freeze.
https://thecritic.co.uk/something-something-robert-caro/
IDS becoming Tory leader in 2001 was crucial in both stopping the Euro but also giving Blair the support he needed to ensure he could continue to support Bush in the Iraq War
https://twitter.com/jstevejmackie/status/1326064424977887232?s=20
I have little doubt that this was done to move any announcement to a less.... contraversial time.
This also up -
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1358270/BBC-news-Laura-Kuenssberg-Cabinet-warning-Scotland-independence-polls-latest-vn
https://www.wgowam.com/news/sources-fox-news-suspends-justice-with-judge-jeanine-over-trump/
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1326098077552422912?s=20
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1326098082489135104?s=20
How's that vibe for you?
(I 100% would oppose AOC or Sanders style Democrats but the right of the Democrats are closer to my style of Tories than the GOP is right now.)