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Whilst Betfair remains suspended we receive an ‘optimistic’ update from Trump’s doctors – politicalb

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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    OnboardG1 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1312482188122750977

    Given we already know about how colourful Boris' personal life has been, seems a strange choice for the big scoop headline.
    If Boris had done it fair enough but he cannot be responsible for his Father

    Is this the best front page the mail on sunday can do
    That suggests that the book is a bit of a bust for earth shattering revelations about Boris himself.

    Bit like the Cameron biography?
    The guy seems to have a vacuous personality constructed of bluster. Every report I have seen by anyone spending any time with him is that he is a hollow shell, that he lacks real ability, talent and warmth.

    What sort of "... earth shattering revelations ..." could there be about such a person?
    That there's something he has some talent in?
    :D:D That would be a revelation
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,897
    Caught it on twitter, up to 13 days of backdating !!
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    RobD said:

    Looks as though it has been updated though, 12,872.

    And that's just Northumbria University.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,234
    edited October 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    Oh FFS. Sorry to any PBers who followed me in.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,215
    UK cases by specimen date

    image
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    OnboardG1 said:

    alex_ said:


    I don’t see why this is necessarily a “problem”. It’s only a problem if you see number of cases as somehow the crucial number, as opposed to actual negative health outcomes. If any thing, every student in the country getting it in the next month whilst largely on campus and isolated from the majority of the “at risk” population would be a massive bonus.

    All this is doing is adding an enormous number of “non dangerous” cases to the overall figures.
    Only if you consider death to be the only relevant healthcare outcome. There are plenty of students with pre-existing conditions and others who will end up with Long Covid. Plus those who are asymptomatic and spread it into the community. It's definitely a problem.
    You were the one who referenced death, not me. There is no reason why vulnerable students couldn’t be housed separately from the general student population.

    And I would also ask the question - that whilst we hear a lot about “long Covid” and it’s supposed long term effects - how much qualification of this is there in numbers? Because just as not everyone dies, so not everyone has ongoing effects of various severity.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,215
    UK Cases by specimen date and scaled to 100k population

    image
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,215
    Case summary today

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    Case summary yesterday

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    Nigelb said:

    This is pretty well horseshit, and it’s pretty poor that he hasn’t postponed the debate for a week.
    https://twitter.com/V2019N/status/1312480672649416704

    Well, Pence HAS been trying to keep some distance from Trumpsky while still being (and being seen to be) the Loyal Veep, same as You Know Who (just) before him.

    Less need for POTUS - VP face time than you might think. Esp. when it is NOT being initiated by Pres personally or White House in his name.

    IF you or I were MP, prudent thing to do as Election Day approaches is NOT to be huddled with Trumpsky but instead to be campaigning around the country for re-election as Vice President. In this case, the semi-sane if not-entirely human face of the Trumpsky administration.

    So in lieu of surveying the actual time-logs, can state quasi-categorically that I think it at least semi-likely that Pence was NOT in close communication with Trumpsky and his magic circle in days leading up to announcement that the Crude has the Crud.

    And visa versa.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,215
    Further case data

    image
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,578
    I see that Mark Meadows has contradicted the earlier briefing by Mark Meadows. Glad to see that has been cleared up.

    Also, does anyone have the UK 7 day average case number based on reporting date?
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,215
    UK hospitals

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    image
    image
    image
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,748

    Omnium said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Tom Bowyer wrote a book on Corbyn, has anyone read it?

    Next in the series, SKS?

    A book on Corbyn eh? To buy you say! I think that it's a firm no.

    Even a free book on Corbyn might require dusting and shelf space. There is a better use of paper.

    The next Tom Bower book is on Boris
    I see your point.

    Corbyn and Boris loo rolls would be best-sellers. A proper use of paper.

    (Actually I'm just going along with the theme here. Boris is ok in my book.)
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,215
    UK deaths

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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
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    alex_ said:


    I don’t see why this is necessarily a “problem”. It’s only a problem if you see number of cases as somehow the crucial number, as opposed to actual negative health outcomes. If any thing, every student in the country getting it in the next month whilst largely on campus and isolated from the majority of the “at risk” population would be a massive bonus.

    All this is doing is adding an enormous number of “non dangerous” cases to the overall figures.
    Isolating on campus? "Mum, I don't feel well, can I come home?" "Of course, you can, dear."
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    So Trumps condition is somewhere between nought wrong with him and at deaths door.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Scott_xP said:
    Weird. Betfair haven't suspended the markets.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    UK hospitals

    image
    image
    image
    image

    Is the initial March reporting on hospitalisation rather misleading? Is that just when the started counting and the reality is that there is a missing growing curve in the lead up to this?
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    OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,277
    https://twitter.com/petesivey/status/1312485655314747392

    Annoyingly this is for England only but it looks like a lot of it is "filling" some of the gappy days we saw a week or so ago.
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    Scott_xP said:
    Kudos to Malmesbury!

    Only rarely can I understand his data crunching HOWEVER realize that better minds than mine both comprehend and credit M'm'b'y's numbers & analysis.

    Also, some of your graphics are artistically pleasing, for example ones just posted esp. the regional spiky rainbow.

    The kind of thing that make PB more than just a betting site, and more than the sum of its many weird & wonderful parts.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,040

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,079
    GIN1138 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Trump approval with likely/registered voters:

    51.7% disapprove
    45.0% approve

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/voters/

    45% "approve" of Donald Trump? Really?
    The base + partisan Republicans + shallow apoliticals.

    Not quite enough for re-election.
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    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
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    Alistair said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Weird. Betfair haven't suspended the markets.
    Be careful what you wish for. There will likely be another wave of legal restrictions on betting in this parliament.

    Betfair front page news for trading on the death of Trump could potentially lead to all political betting or even exchange betting being banned. They have every right to protect their reputation and it is in the long term interests of exchange punters that they do so.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Absolutely massive news on the USC tracker

    https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/1312484575637991425?s=19

    I had been having a proper head scratch about it as the 7 day and 14 day data simply didn't add up.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,040

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Why? It is NOT Starmer's job. He has no business offering the Government advice. Johnson would be perfectly entitled to tell Starmer to get stuffed. That is how government and opposition works.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,215
    The issue seems to have been England and Wales reporting only

    The following is today-yesterday, sorted by country and then alphabetically. So the positive numbers show where cases were added today, either because of new reporting or backdating

    image



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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,215
    alex_ said:

    UK hospitals

    image
    image
    image
    image

    Is the initial March reporting on hospitalisation rather misleading? Is that just when the started counting and the reality is that there is a missing growing curve in the lead up to this?
    There is missing data from the start of this - what PHE has in the unified database is what I get....
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,079

    So Trumps condition is somewhere between nought wrong with him and at deaths door.

    Nearer the former I strongly sense.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,215
    What is interesting is that the extra cases are quite distributed - the shape of the graph is not effected very much

    Case summary today

    image

    Case summary yesterday

    image
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,554
    Alistair said:

    Absolutely massive news on the USC tracker

    https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/1312484575637991425?s=19

    I had been having a proper head scratch about it as the 7 day and 14 day data simply didn't add up.

    538 are still showing USC as a +7 Biden lead on their (538's) poll averages.
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    Alistair said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Weird. Betfair haven't suspended the markets.
    Be careful what you wish for. There will likely be another wave of legal restrictions on betting in this parliament.

    Betfair front page news for trading on the death of Trump could potentially lead to all political betting or even exchange betting being banned. They have every right to protect their reputation and it is in the long term interests of exchange punters that they do so.
    Boris (who remains Prime Minister!) has been making anti-gambling noises.
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    Alistair said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Weird. Betfair haven't suspended the markets.
    Since your post, Betfair has removed the O'Brien runners.
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    OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,277

    Alistair said:

    Absolutely massive news on the USC tracker

    https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/1312484575637991425?s=19

    I had been having a proper head scratch about it as the 7 day and 14 day data simply didn't add up.

    538 are still showing USC as a +7 Biden lead on their (538's) poll averages.
    Possible that their data admin guy has clocked off for the evening.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,151
    A non-Trump-related post - or only tangentially.

    What the late Sir Harry Evans and Richard Hoare (@Charles’s late father - and, yes, I did ask @Charles if he was OK with this) can teach us about the importance of challenge: https://barry-walsh.co.uk/lives-well-lived/.
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Why? It is NOT Starmer's job. He has no business offering the Government advice. Johnson would be perfectly entitled to tell Starmer to get stuffed. That is how government and opposition works.
    No, because Labour are in power.

    Labour are in power in Wales. Health is devolved.

    If Labour had some excellent coronavirus policies, then they should implement them in Wales.

    As far as I can see, apart from inadvertently publishing the confidential medical records of 18,000 Covid cases, Labour in Wales have done nothing better or worse than Johnson in England or Sturgeon in Scotland (or Macron in France for that matter).
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    Alistair said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Weird. Betfair haven't suspended the markets.
    Be careful what you wish for. There will likely be another wave of legal restrictions on betting in this parliament.

    Betfair front page news for trading on the death of Trump could potentially lead to all political betting or even exchange betting being banned. They have every right to protect their reputation and it is in the long term interests of exchange punters that they do so.
    Boris (who remains Prime Minister!) has been making anti-gambling noises.
    Very few politicians will stick up for gambling. We have a government with authoritarian tendencies that doesnt respect logic and is very open to industry "corruption"/lobbying. During the 2005 gambling act the lobbying to stop exchange betting was heavily funded but that government decided things more on logic and saw there was nothing wrong with it. We have one of the most liberal, and best, set of gambling laws in the world, it should not be taken for granted.
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    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Why? It is NOT Starmer's job. He has no business offering the Government advice. Johnson would be perfectly entitled to tell Starmer to get stuffed. That is how government and opposition works.
    He doesn't need to give the Government advice, he can come up with his own policies, show some leadership. Tell the media "if I was PM [this] is what I'd be doing", or "the Government should be doing [this]". Then when [this] is done he can claim credit, or if its not he can point to it and say he has been calling for [this] and it would work and the PM is failing.

    That too is how oppositions work, when oppositions are a credible government-in-waiting.

    But since Starmer doesn't even want to oppose Johnson having powers to write laws without going to Parliament first, it should hardly be a surprise he's not interested in being a credible PM-in-waiting.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,079
    Jonathan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    My working assumption is that Trump's in a critical condition.

    He may be sending the odd tweet whilst on oxygen, it's possible, or it might be one of him team ghosting for him - it's not hard to imitate his style.

    Either way I'd take official reports of his condition with a pinch of salt.

    We can't know either way. That's how I'm looking at it.
    We don’t need to guess. Trump is in hospital. That’s enough. It’s serious.
    I don't think we can assume that in this case. That the ultimate reality TV star and narcissistic drama queen is milking a so far mild case of coronavirus for maximum effect is far from implausible.
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    FishingFishing Posts: 4,560

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Yes. But perhaps he's judging that by late 2024 the pandemic (which I think should be called an epidemic, but anyway ...) will have faded away and there will be other issues on people's minds? And if they see too much of him now, he'll be stale by then. He doesn't want to peak too early because the press might get bored with writing "Starmer is brilliant" articles and instead the fashion might be "Starmer is shit".
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,079

    Alistair said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Weird. Betfair haven't suspended the markets.
    Since your post, Betfair has removed the O'Brien runners.
    That spoils the race a bit. I'd like to see Enable win or Sottsass which I'm on ante post at 20s.
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    Fishing said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Yes. But perhaps he's judging that by late 2024 the pandemic (which I think should be called an epidemic, but anyway ...) will have faded away and there will be other issues on people's minds? And if they see too much of him now, he'll be stale by then. He doesn't want to peak too early because the press might get bored with writing "Starmer is brilliant" articles and instead the fashion might be "Starmer is shit".
    Absolutely the pandemic will be over by 2024 (and if its not we all have bigger problems than who wins the next election).

    But credibility is hard won. Starmer has an opportunity here to be deemed a credible alternative PM and what's more there's little to lose. If he has great ideas he can win major credibility and be set up to be viewed as a credible PM-in-waiting going forwards . . . and if his ideas are terrible then frankly that'll never be demonstrated since they won't even be tested (and if they are it will be by the Government and it will be the Government's implementation that is said to be shit not his idea they knicked). What has he got to lose?

    The only explanation I can think of is that he's not ready, capable or brave enough to step up to the plate.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Re: betfair. Whilst one of its main attractions is the ability to trade in and out of bets, fundamentally that is a feature of its platform, not a purpose. I'm pretty sure they will always maintain that every bet placed must be assumed to stand on its own merits, there is no absolute right to trade out of a position.

    Whilst it would be pretty outrageous if they voided bets on a theoretical Trump death, given the specific wording of the terms of the bet allowed for that scenario (and i'm certain they would lose in court if they tried to do so), it is fairly normal practice for a suspension when there is a heightened risk of insider trading. So this could be seen as an extension of this. Anyone placing a bet has the risk of being stuck with their bet and/or the market moving against them irrevocably.

    A corollary of market suspension is obviously that all unmatched bets are cancelled, as otherwise unwitting punters could be faced with being exposed in the event that the market reopens at an unfavourable time.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,329

    Nigelb said:

    This is pretty well horseshit, and it’s pretty poor that he hasn’t postponed the debate for a week.
    https://twitter.com/V2019N/status/1312480672649416704

    Well, Pence HAS been trying to keep some distance from Trumpsky while still being (and being seen to be) the Loyal Veep, same as You Know Who (just) before him.

    Less need for POTUS - VP face time than you might think. Esp. when it is NOT being initiated by Pres personally or White House in his name.

    IF you or I were MP, prudent thing to do as Election Day approaches is NOT to be huddled with Trumpsky but instead to be campaigning around the country for re-election as Vice President. In this case, the semi-sane if not-entirely human face of the Trumpsky administration.

    So in lieu of surveying the actual time-logs, can state quasi-categorically that I think it at least semi-likely that Pence was NOT in close communication with Trumpsky and his magic circle in days leading up to announcement that the Crude has the Crud.

    And visa versa.
    While it’s true that we don’t have all that much info, he was very clearly sitting directly in front of Sen. Lee at the Barrett event. That alone would be reason for quarantining.
    It would indeed be prudent for president and VP to be in entirely non-communicating bubbles, but that obviously isn’t the case.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,234
    edited October 2020
    Cyclefree said:

    A non-Trump-related post - or only tangentially.

    What the late Sir Harry Evans and Richard Hoare (@Charles’s late father - and, yes, I did ask @Charles if he was OK with this) can teach us about the importance of challenge: https://barry-walsh.co.uk/lives-well-lived/.

    An aside on Harold Evans: at the Sunday Times he looked aghast at some illegible handwriting before advising: if you are going to scribble, scribble big. Advice to live by, except these days everything is typed.

    ETA: unfortunately, both the linked obituaries are paywalled.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,142
    "What is the actual state of President Trump's health — now and over the past 24 hours?

    Why it matters: It’s one of the most high-stakes questions in the world, and I cannot answer it, despite having spent since 5 a.m. on Friday on my phone with sources inside and close to the White House."


    "The bottom line: Multiple sources in the White House and on the campaign have reached out since Meadows' statement, and said they're utterly perplexed about what's going on.

    They, like us, have little confidence in what they are being told."

    https://www.axios.com/covering-cover-up-trump-coronavirus-b71a3921-4d1c-45bc-bdbc-08c3871e1b26.html
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    Fishing said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Yes. But perhaps he's judging that by late 2024 the pandemic (which I think should be called an epidemic, but anyway ...) will have faded away and there will be other issues on people's minds? And if they see too much of him now, he'll be stale by then. He doesn't want to peak too early because the press might get bored with writing "Starmer is brilliant" articles and instead the fashion might be "Starmer is shit".
    Absolutely the pandemic will be over by 2024 (and if its not we all have bigger problems than who wins the next election).

    But credibility is hard won. Starmer has an opportunity here to be deemed a credible alternative PM and what's more there's little to lose. If he has great ideas he can win major credibility and be set up to be viewed as a credible PM-in-waiting going forwards . . . and if his ideas are terrible then frankly that'll never be demonstrated since they won't even be tested (and if they are it will be by the Government and it will be the Government's implementation that is said to be shit not his idea they knicked). What has he got to lose?

    The only explanation I can think of is that he's not ready, capable or brave enough to step up to the plate.
    The 2024 election is not going to be about Labour, it is going to be about the Tories. If they do averagely or better the Tories win. If they do badly, then Labour dont have to be brilliant, just inoffensive and not Corbyn.
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    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Why? It is NOT Starmer's job. He has no business offering the Government advice. Johnson would be perfectly entitled to tell Starmer to get stuffed. That is how government and opposition works.
    No, because Labour are in power.

    Labour are in power in Wales. Health is devolved.

    If Labour had some excellent coronavirus policies, then they should implement them in Wales.

    As far as I can see, apart from inadvertently publishing the confidential medical records of 18,000 Covid cases, Labour in Wales have done nothing better or worse than Johnson in England or Sturgeon in Scotland (or Macron in France for that matter).
    Absolutely!

    It says something that pretty much everyone will recognise that the SNP are in power in Scotland but very, very few people (even Labour's erstwhile supporters) acknowledge or think about the fact that Labour are in power too.
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    My working assumption is that Trump's in a critical condition.

    He may be sending the odd tweet whilst on oxygen, it's possible, or it might be one of him team ghosting for him - it's not hard to imitate his style.

    Either way I'd take official reports of his condition with a pinch of salt.

    It was those answers to whether Trump had needed oxygen that were the warning flares for me.
    Keep in mind that doctors attending the President - any president - are highly likely to use somewhat heroic measures perhaps a wee bit earlier than with a less eminent patient. Such as break out the oxygen if POTUS was getting huffy and NOT in a good way.

    SO use of H2O not necessarily a sign of severity, though clearly we are NOT talking asymptomatic.

    Note that heath of head of state and/or government has ALWAYS been considered a matter of state:as positive propaganda when good, and a state secret when not.

    No different this time around. Just that White House is run by a bunch of reform school rejects and other criminal incompetents (also visa versa) who matriculated from drunk tanks and diploma mills (such as Wharton School of U of Penn).
    I hope they would give any patient water if they wanted it...
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,329
    Scott_xP said:
    The Post isn’t exactly a journal of record, and Giuliani not the most reliable of reporters. Make of it what you will.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    He's said put local authorities in charge of contact tracing. That alone would be a big step forwards.
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    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is pretty well horseshit, and it’s pretty poor that he hasn’t postponed the debate for a week.
    https://twitter.com/V2019N/status/1312480672649416704

    Well, Pence HAS been trying to keep some distance from Trumpsky while still being (and being seen to be) the Loyal Veep, same as You Know Who (just) before him.

    Less need for POTUS - VP face time than you might think. Esp. when it is NOT being initiated by Pres personally or White House in his name.

    IF you or I were MP, prudent thing to do as Election Day approaches is NOT to be huddled with Trumpsky but instead to be campaigning around the country for re-election as Vice President. In this case, the semi-sane if not-entirely human face of the Trumpsky administration.

    So in lieu of surveying the actual time-logs, can state quasi-categorically that I think it at least semi-likely that Pence was NOT in close communication with Trumpsky and his magic circle in days leading up to announcement that the Crude has the Crud.

    And visa versa.
    While it’s true that we don’t have all that much info, he was very clearly sitting directly in front of Sen. Lee at the Barrett event. That alone would be reason for quarantining.
    It would indeed be prudent for president and VP to be in entirely non-communicating bubbles, but that obviously isn’t the case.
    You certainly do raise interesting point, VP's personal status needs to be fully disclosed, for both public accountability AND public health. Areas where hitherto MP has been superior to Trumpsky.
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    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is pretty well horseshit, and it’s pretty poor that he hasn’t postponed the debate for a week.
    https://twitter.com/V2019N/status/1312480672649416704

    Well, Pence HAS been trying to keep some distance from Trumpsky while still being (and being seen to be) the Loyal Veep, same as You Know Who (just) before him.

    Less need for POTUS - VP face time than you might think. Esp. when it is NOT being initiated by Pres personally or White House in his name.

    IF you or I were MP, prudent thing to do as Election Day approaches is NOT to be huddled with Trumpsky but instead to be campaigning around the country for re-election as Vice President. In this case, the semi-sane if not-entirely human face of the Trumpsky administration.

    So in lieu of surveying the actual time-logs, can state quasi-categorically that I think it at least semi-likely that Pence was NOT in close communication with Trumpsky and his magic circle in days leading up to announcement that the Crude has the Crud.

    And visa versa.
    While it’s true that we don’t have all that much info, he was very clearly sitting directly in front of Sen. Lee at the Barrett event. That alone would be reason for quarantining.
    It would indeed be prudent for president and VP to be in entirely non-communicating bubbles, but that obviously isn’t the case.
    You certainly do raise interesting point, VP's personal status needs to be fully disclosed, for both public accountability AND public health. Areas where hitherto MP has been superior to Trumpsky.
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    FishingFishing Posts: 4,560

    Fishing said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Yes. But perhaps he's judging that by late 2024 the pandemic (which I think should be called an epidemic, but anyway ...) will have faded away and there will be other issues on people's minds? And if they see too much of him now, he'll be stale by then. He doesn't want to peak too early because the press might get bored with writing "Starmer is brilliant" articles and instead the fashion might be "Starmer is shit".
    Absolutely the pandemic will be over by 2024 (and if its not we all have bigger problems than who wins the next election).

    But credibility is hard won. Starmer has an opportunity here to be deemed a credible alternative PM and what's more there's little to lose. If he has great ideas he can win major credibility and be set up to be viewed as a credible PM-in-waiting going forwards . . . and if his ideas are terrible then frankly that'll never be demonstrated since they won't even be tested (and if they are it will be by the Government and it will be the Government's implementation that is said to be shit not his idea they knicked). What has he got to lose?

    The only explanation I can think of is that he's not ready, capable or brave enough to step up to the plate.
    He's certainly not brave. Or, to put it more politely, he's very risk averse. A common trait amongst lawyers.
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    My working assumption is that Trump's in a critical condition.

    He may be sending the odd tweet whilst on oxygen, it's possible, or it might be one of him team ghosting for him - it's not hard to imitate his style.

    Either way I'd take official reports of his condition with a pinch of salt.

    It was those answers to whether Trump had needed oxygen that were the warning flares for me.
    Keep in mind that doctors attending the President - any president - are highly likely to use somewhat heroic measures perhaps a wee bit earlier than with a less eminent patient. Such as break out the oxygen if POTUS was getting huffy and NOT in a good way.

    SO use of H2O not necessarily a sign of severity, though clearly we are NOT talking asymptomatic.

    Note that heath of head of state and/or government has ALWAYS been considered a matter of state:as positive propaganda when good, and a state secret when not.

    No different this time around. Just that White House is run by a bunch of reform school rejects and other criminal incompetents (also visa versa) who matriculated from drunk tanks and diploma mills (such as Wharton School of U of Penn).
    I hope they would give any patient water if they wanted it...
    Touche!
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    Fishing said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Yes. But perhaps he's judging that by late 2024 the pandemic (which I think should be called an epidemic, but anyway ...) will have faded away and there will be other issues on people's minds? And if they see too much of him now, he'll be stale by then. He doesn't want to peak too early because the press might get bored with writing "Starmer is brilliant" articles and instead the fashion might be "Starmer is shit".
    Absolutely the pandemic will be over by 2024 (and if its not we all have bigger problems than who wins the next election).

    But credibility is hard won. Starmer has an opportunity here to be deemed a credible alternative PM and what's more there's little to lose. If he has great ideas he can win major credibility and be set up to be viewed as a credible PM-in-waiting going forwards . . . and if his ideas are terrible then frankly that'll never be demonstrated since they won't even be tested (and if they are it will be by the Government and it will be the Government's implementation that is said to be shit not his idea they knicked). What has he got to lose?

    The only explanation I can think of is that he's not ready, capable or brave enough to step up to the plate.
    The 2024 election is not going to be about Labour, it is going to be about the Tories. If they do averagely or better the Tories win. If they do badly, then Labour dont have to be brilliant, just inoffensive and not Corbyn.
    Sure if Labour want to rely upon the Tories being a disaster then they can . . . but if the Tories aren't a disaster, then what? If the Tories get a new leader between now and then, then what?

    In 1997 Labour were taken credibly and had for years by that point made their own proposals putting themselves as a credible opposition and credible government-in-waiting as opposed to the Tory government. Appears that Starmer isn't remotely ready to do that yet.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,142
    HYUFD said:
    A quick scan read of the actual statement seems to be actually saying that maths is being blocked from being used to expose the effects of racism.

    "It is time for all members of our profession to acknowledge that mathematics is created by humans and therefore inherently carries human biases. Until this occurs, our community and our students cannot reach full potential. Reaching this potential in mathematics relies upon the academy and higher education engaging in critical, challenging, sometimes uncomfortable conversations about the detrimental effects of race and racism on our community. The time is now to move mathematics and education forward in pursuit of justice."

    It is a kick back against Executive orders, I think.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,079

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Why? It is NOT Starmer's job. He has no business offering the Government advice. Johnson would be perfectly entitled to tell Starmer to get stuffed. That is how government and opposition works.
    No, because Labour are in power.

    Labour are in power in Wales. Health is devolved.

    If Labour had some excellent coronavirus policies, then they should implement them in Wales.

    As far as I can see, apart from inadvertently publishing the confidential medical records of 18,000 Covid cases, Labour in Wales have done nothing better or worse than Johnson in England or Sturgeon in Scotland (or Macron in France for that matter).
    Absolutely!

    It says something that pretty much everyone will recognise that the SNP are in power in Scotland but very, very few people (even Labour's erstwhile supporters) acknowledge or think about the fact that Labour are in power too.
    I think this is because people outside Wales do not often think about Wales.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,329

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is pretty well horseshit, and it’s pretty poor that he hasn’t postponed the debate for a week.
    https://twitter.com/V2019N/status/1312480672649416704

    Well, Pence HAS been trying to keep some distance from Trumpsky while still being (and being seen to be) the Loyal Veep, same as You Know Who (just) before him.

    Less need for POTUS - VP face time than you might think. Esp. when it is NOT being initiated by Pres personally or White House in his name.

    IF you or I were MP, prudent thing to do as Election Day approaches is NOT to be huddled with Trumpsky but instead to be campaigning around the country for re-election as Vice President. In this case, the semi-sane if not-entirely human face of the Trumpsky administration.

    So in lieu of surveying the actual time-logs, can state quasi-categorically that I think it at least semi-likely that Pence was NOT in close communication with Trumpsky and his magic circle in days leading up to announcement that the Crude has the Crud.

    And visa versa.
    While it’s true that we don’t have all that much info, he was very clearly sitting directly in front of Sen. Lee at the Barrett event. That alone would be reason for quarantining.
    It would indeed be prudent for president and VP to be in entirely non-communicating bubbles, but that obviously isn’t the case.
    You certainly do raise interesting point, VP's personal status needs to be fully disclosed, for both public accountability AND public health. Areas where hitherto MP has been superior to Trumpsky.
    Not an easy matter during a charged election.
    I read the Republicans even pushed back against the request for greater distancing at the VP debate, though that will happen.
    Knowing the capital they’d make if she pulled out, Harris will be there, but I doubt she’s now delighted at the prospect of an event she’d previously have relished.
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    He's said put local authorities in charge of contact tracing. That alone would be a big step forwards.
    Why don't Labour implement it in Wales right now?

    If Labour got a better system working in the part of the UK they control, then that would be an excellent advertisement for their competence.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    HYUFD said:
    Time to apply the Mendacious or Moron test for a Hannan tweet.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,040

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Why? It is NOT Starmer's job. He has no business offering the Government advice. Johnson would be perfectly entitled to tell Starmer to get stuffed. That is how government and opposition works.
    No, because Labour are in power.

    Labour are in power in Wales. Health is devolved.

    If Labour had some excellent coronavirus policies, then they should implement them in Wales.

    As far as I can see, apart from inadvertently publishing the confidential medical records of 18,000 Covid cases, Labour in Wales have done nothing better or worse than Johnson in England or Sturgeon in Scotland (or Macron in France for that matter).
    I don't dispute Drakeford is the most useless leader in the four nations by a country mile and his incompetence has cost many lives. I do not however expect an improved strategy set out by Paul Davies. His job is to say Drakeford and Gethin have unnecessarily killed far too many Welsh residents by their incompetence and he is right.

    Therefore why do you expect Starmer to do Johnson's job for him. Starmer is Leader of the Opposition. The clue is in his job title
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,077
    For reference, Northumbria University (and Newcastle University) do not really have a "campus" as such. Yes they have various areas of the city centre where their buildings are, but students are dispersed all over the city (and across the river in Gateshead) in both halls of residence and private housing.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,258
    I always thought the Charles Moore to the BBC story was a bit of #ClassicDom trolling.
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    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Why? It is NOT Starmer's job. He has no business offering the Government advice. Johnson would be perfectly entitled to tell Starmer to get stuffed. That is how government and opposition works.
    No, because Labour are in power.

    Labour are in power in Wales. Health is devolved.

    If Labour had some excellent coronavirus policies, then they should implement them in Wales.

    As far as I can see, apart from inadvertently publishing the confidential medical records of 18,000 Covid cases, Labour in Wales have done nothing better or worse than Johnson in England or Sturgeon in Scotland (or Macron in France for that matter).
    I don't dispute Drakeford is the most useless leader in the four nations by a country mile and his incompetence has cost many lives. I do not however expect an improved strategy set out by Paul Davies. His job is to say Drakeford and Gethin have unnecessarily killed far too many Welsh residents by their incompetence and he is right.

    Therefore why do you expect Starmer to do Johnson's job for him. Starmer is Leader of the Opposition. The clue is in his job title
    Starmer making alternative opposing proposals would be doing his own job not the Government's job. He would be opposing if he did that.
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    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    My working assumption is that Trump's in a critical condition.

    He may be sending the odd tweet whilst on oxygen, it's possible, or it might be one of him team ghosting for him - it's not hard to imitate his style.

    Either way I'd take official reports of his condition with a pinch of salt.

    We can't know either way. That's how I'm looking at it.
    We don’t need to guess. Trump is in hospital. That’s enough. It’s serious.
    I don't think we can assume that in this case. That the ultimate reality TV star and narcissistic drama queen is milking a so far mild case of coronavirus for maximum effect is far from implausible.
    All the inconsistencies make it look really bad, but purely on the basis that he walked to the helicopter yesterday I still can't see how it isn't somewhat closer to nowt wrong than death's door. He's clearly not well enough to just shrug it off as nothing, though.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,258
    Cyclefree said:

    A non-Trump-related post - or only tangentially.

    What the late Sir Harry Evans and Richard Hoare (@Charles’s late father - and, yes, I did ask @Charles if he was OK with this) can teach us about the importance of challenge: https://barry-walsh.co.uk/lives-well-lived/.

    That's a very nice article. Thanks for sharing.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,329

    Cyclefree said:

    A non-Trump-related post - or only tangentially.

    What the late Sir Harry Evans and Richard Hoare (@Charles’s late father - and, yes, I did ask @Charles if he was OK with this) can teach us about the importance of challenge: https://barry-walsh.co.uk/lives-well-lived/.

    That's a very nice article. Thanks for sharing.
    Agreed.
    Good night all.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,040

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Why? It is NOT Starmer's job. He has no business offering the Government advice. Johnson would be perfectly entitled to tell Starmer to get stuffed. That is how government and opposition works.
    No, because Labour are in power.

    Labour are in power in Wales. Health is devolved.

    If Labour had some excellent coronavirus policies, then they should implement them in Wales.

    As far as I can see, apart from inadvertently publishing the confidential medical records of 18,000 Covid cases, Labour in Wales have done nothing better or worse than Johnson in England or Sturgeon in Scotland (or Macron in France for that matter).
    I don't dispute Drakeford is the most useless leader in the four nations by a country mile and his incompetence has cost many lives. I do not however expect an improved strategy set out by Paul Davies. His job is to say Drakeford and Gethin have unnecessarily killed far too many Welsh residents by their incompetence and he is right.

    Therefore why do you expect Starmer to do Johnson's job for him. Starmer is Leader of the Opposition. The clue is in his job title
    Starmer making alternative opposing proposals would be doing his own job not the Government's job. He would be opposing if he did that.
    Yeah, yeah, you're right. Debating with you is akin to smashing ones head multiple times into the wall.

    Time to exit.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Why? It is NOT Starmer's job. He has no business offering the Government advice. Johnson would be perfectly entitled to tell Starmer to get stuffed. That is how government and opposition works.
    No, because Labour are in power.

    Labour are in power in Wales. Health is devolved.

    If Labour had some excellent coronavirus policies, then they should implement them in Wales.

    As far as I can see, apart from inadvertently publishing the confidential medical records of 18,000 Covid cases, Labour in Wales have done nothing better or worse than Johnson in England or Sturgeon in Scotland (or Macron in France for that matter).
    I don't dispute Drakeford is the most useless leader in the four nations by a country mile and his incompetence has cost many lives. I do not however expect an improved strategy set out by Paul Davies. His job is to say Drakeford and Gethin have unnecessarily killed far too many Welsh residents by their incompetence and he is right.

    Therefore why do you expect Starmer to do Johnson's job for him. Starmer is Leader of the Opposition. The clue is in his job title
    Labour can demonstrate their competence by implementing policies successfully in Wales.

    It will provide practical proof that they can do things differently and better.
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    TimTTimT Posts: 6,328

    My working assumption is that Trump's in a critical condition.

    He may be sending the odd tweet whilst on oxygen, it's possible, or it might be one of him team ghosting for him - it's not hard to imitate his style.

    Either way I'd take official reports of his condition with a pinch of salt.

    It was those answers to whether Trump had needed oxygen that were the warning flares for me.
    Keep in mind that doctors attending the President - any president - are highly likely to use somewhat heroic measures perhaps a wee bit earlier than with a less eminent patient. Such as break out the oxygen if POTUS was getting huffy and NOT in a good way.

    SO use of H2O not necessarily a sign of severity, though clearly we are NOT talking asymptomatic.

    Note that heath of head of state and/or government has ALWAYS been considered a matter of state:as positive propaganda when good, and a state secret when not.

    No different this time around. Just that White House is run by a bunch of reform school rejects and other criminal incompetents (also visa versa) who matriculated from drunk tanks and diploma mills (such as Wharton School of U of Penn).
    I hope they would give any patient water if they wanted it...
    Touche!
    LOL. I am sure Wharton will relish being called a diploma mill. :wink:

    Talking of which, just read a very good book by Jonah Berger - The Catalyst - about change management. Highly recommend it to anyone in the business of management or personnel development. Indeed, many on here should enjoy it for his discussion as to why contradictory facts often have no impact on changing someone's beliefs, and may even harden those beliefs.
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    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Why? It is NOT Starmer's job. He has no business offering the Government advice. Johnson would be perfectly entitled to tell Starmer to get stuffed. That is how government and opposition works.
    No, because Labour are in power.

    Labour are in power in Wales. Health is devolved.

    If Labour had some excellent coronavirus policies, then they should implement them in Wales.

    As far as I can see, apart from inadvertently publishing the confidential medical records of 18,000 Covid cases, Labour in Wales have done nothing better or worse than Johnson in England or Sturgeon in Scotland (or Macron in France for that matter).
    I don't dispute Drakeford is the most useless leader in the four nations by a country mile and his incompetence has cost many lives. I do not however expect an improved strategy set out by Paul Davies. His job is to say Drakeford and Gethin have unnecessarily killed far too many Welsh residents by their incompetence and he is right.

    Therefore why do you expect Starmer to do Johnson's job for him. Starmer is Leader of the Opposition. The clue is in his job title
    Starmer making alternative opposing proposals would be doing his own job not the Government's job. He would be opposing if he did that.
    Yeah, yeah, you're right. Debating with you is akin to smashing ones head multiple times into the wall.

    Time to exit.
    All is not lost.

    If you get better at thinking logically you might get better at debating.
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    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:
    Time to apply the Mendacious or Moron test for a Hannan tweet.
    Wee Dan has blocked me. What tightrope between mendacity and moronicness has he teetered over this time?
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Why? It is NOT Starmer's job. He has no business offering the Government advice. Johnson would be perfectly entitled to tell Starmer to get stuffed. That is how government and opposition works.
    No, because Labour are in power.

    Labour are in power in Wales. Health is devolved.

    If Labour had some excellent coronavirus policies, then they should implement them in Wales.

    As far as I can see, apart from inadvertently publishing the confidential medical records of 18,000 Covid cases, Labour in Wales have done nothing better or worse than Johnson in England or Sturgeon in Scotland (or Macron in France for that matter).
    Absolutely!

    It says something that pretty much everyone will recognise that the SNP are in power in Scotland but very, very few people (even Labour's erstwhile supporters) acknowledge or think about the fact that Labour are in power too.
    I think this is because people outside Wales do not often think about Wales.
    Labour's misrule in Wales (although, as you say, of little interest to the rest of the UK) does have national consequences.

    A number of commentators have pointed that Wales voted Leave, despite being a substantial beneficiary of EU cash.

    But few have bothered to ask why that is? How does it come about that a country receiving substantial EU cash votes to leave?

    It did not happen in RoI.

    RoI received substantial EU cash, the politicians did some good things with it, and the EU is very popular.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,040

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Why? It is NOT Starmer's job. He has no business offering the Government advice. Johnson would be perfectly entitled to tell Starmer to get stuffed. That is how government and opposition works.
    No, because Labour are in power.

    Labour are in power in Wales. Health is devolved.

    If Labour had some excellent coronavirus policies, then they should implement them in Wales.

    As far as I can see, apart from inadvertently publishing the confidential medical records of 18,000 Covid cases, Labour in Wales have done nothing better or worse than Johnson in England or Sturgeon in Scotland (or Macron in France for that matter).
    I don't dispute Drakeford is the most useless leader in the four nations by a country mile and his incompetence has cost many lives. I do not however expect an improved strategy set out by Paul Davies. His job is to say Drakeford and Gethin have unnecessarily killed far too many Welsh residents by their incompetence and he is right.

    Therefore why do you expect Starmer to do Johnson's job for him. Starmer is Leader of the Opposition. The clue is in his job title
    Starmer making alternative opposing proposals would be doing his own job not the Government's job. He would be opposing if he did that.
    Yeah, yeah, you're right. Debating with you is akin to smashing ones head multiple times into the wall.

    Time to exit.
    All is not lost.

    If you get better at thinking logically you might get better at debating.
    You really do have an unpleasant air of smugness about you.

    Good night.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,578
    Nigelb said:
    No fecking shit.

    Share the pub, share the bug.

    Night all.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:
    Time to apply the Mendacious or Moron test for a Hannan tweet.
    Wee Dan has blocked me. What tightrope between mendacity and moronicness has he teetered over this time?
    He's blocked me too but I still see his tweets in PB.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Fishing said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    Yes. But perhaps he's judging that by late 2024 the pandemic (which I think should be called an epidemic, but anyway ...) will have faded away and there will be other issues on people's minds? And if they see too much of him now, he'll be stale by then. He doesn't want to peak too early because the press might get bored with writing "Starmer is brilliant" articles and instead the fashion might be "Starmer is shit".
    Absolutely the pandemic will be over by 2024 (and if its not we all have bigger problems than who wins the next election).

    But credibility is hard won. Starmer has an opportunity here to be deemed a credible alternative PM and what's more there's little to lose. If he has great ideas he can win major credibility and be set up to be viewed as a credible PM-in-waiting going forwards . . . and if his ideas are terrible then frankly that'll never be demonstrated since they won't even be tested (and if they are it will be by the Government and it will be the Government's implementation that is said to be shit not his idea they knicked). What has he got to lose?

    The only explanation I can think of is that he's not ready, capable or brave enough to step up to the plate.
    The 2024 election is not going to be about Labour, it is going to be about the Tories. If they do averagely or better the Tories win. If they do badly, then Labour dont have to be brilliant, just inoffensive and not Corbyn.
    Sure if Labour want to rely upon the Tories being a disaster then they can . . . but if the Tories aren't a disaster, then what? If the Tories get a new leader between now and then, then what?

    In 1997 Labour were taken credibly and had for years by that point made their own proposals putting themselves as a credible opposition and credible government-in-waiting as opposed to the Tory government. Appears that Starmer isn't remotely ready to do that yet.
    But Starmer is performing better in the polls than Gaitskell was at the same stage of the 1959 Parliament and Kinnock in the 1987 Parliament. Even as late as 1978 Thatcher was only recording 2% leads in many polls - and in the Autumn of that year the Tories fell behind.
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    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:
    Time to apply the Mendacious or Moron test for a Hannan tweet.
    Wee Dan has blocked me. What tightrope between mendacity and moronicness has he teetered over this time?
    He's blocked me too but I still see his tweets in PB.
    I'm on a work laptop, for some reason tweets are only coming up as links rather than visible. To see them I have to click on them and hope I'm not blocked...
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Evening news here reporting that Chris Christie is in hospital. He has a history of asthma but is reportedly feeling well.

    Christie is in many ways an awful human being, but I must confess to a certain grudging liking of the man, and he did a good job of leading New Jersey through Hurricane Sandy and it’s aftermath. I genuinely hope he stays well.
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    TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    He's said put local authorities in charge of contact tracing. That alone would be a big step forwards.
    Why don't Labour implement it in Wales right now?

    If Labour got a better system working in the part of the UK they control, then that would be an excellent advertisement for their competence.
    I think they have got a better system.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/wales-test-trace-system-working-18910956.amp

    My understanding also is that Wales (based on first wave) - has done better than England in excess mortality. That may yet change.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53946092
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    TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    rpjs said:

    Evening news here reporting that Chris Christie is in hospital. He has a history of asthma but is reportedly feeling well.

    Christie is in many ways an awful human being, but I must confess to a certain grudging liking of the man, and he did a good job of leading New Jersey through Hurricane Sandy and it’s aftermath. I genuinely hope he stays well.

    I have had much respect for him ever since the 2011 debate and subsequent press appearances in which, in response to Jon Corzine's not so subtle digs at his weight, Christie said "If you're going to do it, at least man up and say I'm fat". He lost a lot of that respect over Bridgegate, but he is a very good and fun commentator on Trump.
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And if you read the article his plans are those HMG are putting in place

    Disappointing he has nothing new or original to say
    There has been no action plan put forward by anybody other than very slight variations to what the Government has been doing since March. Certainly nothing offered by Labour.
    Why should Labour offer any forward planning? It is not their job. They are in opposition having just lost in a landslide GE to Boris Johnson's Conservative Party.
    Only reason would be if he wished to be taken more seriously than the Prime Minister.

    If he wishes to be Captain Hindsight carping from the sidelines he can continue doing what he's doing . . . if he wants to be a credible leader and alternative Prime Minister he could start giving his own ideas out and showing some real leadership.
    He's said put local authorities in charge of contact tracing. That alone would be a big step forwards.
    Why don't Labour implement it in Wales right now?

    If Labour got a better system working in the part of the UK they control, then that would be an excellent advertisement for their competence.
    I think they have got a better system.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/wales-test-trace-system-working-18910956.amp

    My understanding also is that Wales (based on first wave) - has done better than England in excess mortality. That may yet change.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53946092
    I think it would be interesting to compare the efficacy of policies in Wales, Scotland & England. I think it is not straightforward, as the population densities of the countries is rather different.

    Still, I think one could fairly compare mortality in S Wales Valleys to comparable areas in England like Tyne & Wear at the end of all this.

    Whatever, England, Scotland, Wales (& for that matter France and Spain) have all done poorly. We are just arguing over relatively bad performances.

    None of them is a Germany.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919
    Scott_xP said:
    If asking to read documents, then this is not the Trump we know.
This discussion has been closed.