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Theuniondivvie said:

Carnyx said:

ydoethur said:

FPT

Carnyx said:

The very first words written into the record of the Scottish Parliament in 1999 were that it was specifically a reconvention of that closed in 1707. That was not challenged at the time.

No they were not. Here’s the official record:

http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=4160

Welcome to this, the first meeting of the Scottish Parliament established under the Scotland Act 1998. We are gathered on this day and at this time and place, in accordance with The Scottish Parliament (First Ordinary General Election and First Meeting) Order 1999. As provided by the standing orders, my role is to preside over the proceedings to enable the oldest qualified member to take the oath or make a solemn affirmation.

Which accepts this was a new Parliament established under a new act.

I’m getting really quite worried that even sensible Nats are getting more and more divorced from reality, like Cummings or Farage. Business for Scotland and the National are we all know fake news websites that can’t be trusted, but Carnyx is a sensible and intelligent poster.

Yet even he(?) has swallowed the lies of the Nats’ propagandists whole. No wonder support for independence is increasing if this horseshit is swallowed without question.

But I was right. They were the first words after the Parliament was reconvened. See page 5 here -

http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=4160&mode=pdf

And the National is not a fake news site any more than its sister newspaper the Herald is on the other side. (To b e honest, I want my old Scotsman back from the 20th century - it covered both sides ...).

What Andrew Neil did to the Scotsman should be the sole reason that his opinion on Scotland should never be listened to (though there are loads of other good reasons).

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

algarkirk said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1296360422036185088

Does anyone know how many PR/comms people the government employ already at our expense to do this stuff, and at what cost?

You need consultants and outside help in times of crisis. That's because they can be quickly mobilised and you can get all hands to the pump for a short period, and then they can demobilise. You can't do this with just the civil service alone.

In addition the civil service pay bands and pay caps are now so limiting that anyone who knows about commerce, contracts, big programme management and delivery goes to work for the private sector - the civil service can't compete, can't get the skills, and so is obligated to "buy back" the skills through management consultancy frameworks, which cost even more.

It's a perverse but obvious consequence of the Government pandering to newspaper headlines with public sector pay ("no-one can be paid more than the Prime Minister") and the knee-capping it gets from civil service trade unions in flexing pay.

A better question is why it's always the Big4, Bain, McKinsey and Boston that get all the contracts, rather than independent experts and consultants. The answer is that the public procurement process is too bureaucratic and sclerotic to allow them in and gives too many hurdles to jump through (including basic turnover and liability insurance pre-qualification criteria) and all those big firms are networked up to the eyeballs with the decision-makers in the public sector.

So, it won't change any time soon.

To be fair the government seem to be very keen on awarding this new consultancy with lots of work, they dont even have to do the tender stage:

http://www.publicfirst.co.uk/our-people.html

Malmesbury said:

algarkirk said:

Casino_Royale said:

algarkirk said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1296360422036185088

Does anyone know how many PR/comms people the government employ already at our expense to do this stuff, and at what cost?

You need consultants and outside help in times of crisis. That's because they can be quickly mobilised and you can get all hands to the pump for a short period, and then they can demobilise. You can't do this with just the civil service alone.

In addition the civil service pay bands and pay caps are now so limiting that anyone who knows about commerce, contracts, big programme management and delivery goes to work for the private sector - the civil service can't compete, can't get the skills, and so is obligated to "buy back" the skills through management consultancy frameworks, which cost even more.

It's a perverse but obvious consequence of the Government pandering to newspaper headlines with public sector pay ("no-one can be paid more than the Prime Minister") and the knee-capping it gets from civil service trade unions in flexing pay.

A better question is why it's always the Big4, Bain, McKinsey and Boston that get all the contracts, rather than independent experts and consultants. The answer is that the public procurement process is too bureaucratic and sclerotic to allow them in and gives too many hurdles to jump through (including basic turnover and liability insurance pre-qualification criteria) and all those big firms are networked up to the eyeballs with the decision-makers in the public sector.

So, it won't change any time soon.

An excellent explanation of how the outstanding performance of our government since March has been ably assisted by a remarkable value for money external agency.

Is it possible that a government focused on competence would not need to control the 'vision and narrative' as this would speak for itself?

This is how it has been run since Blair (and before).

The Civil Service structure simply doesn't allow for paying a lowly employee more than the "correct" band. And perish the thought that he/she might get paid more than their manager!!!

Contracting is the way that such constraints have been got round, both in private and public sector - You can't pay a permanent employee more than 45K, but you can pay a consultant 800 a day, for the same job.....

Fysics_Teacher said:

noneoftheabove said:

SouthamObserver said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1296108030636040192

It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?

These are Y11s we are talking about, so it won’t affect university applications for over a year. I expect even Pearson will have sorted them out by then.

As to the relative levels, it looks like the delay is to allow for that.

algarkirk said:

Cyclefree said:

Stocky said:

GCSEs: my daughter has just received her GCSE results. She took nine subjects, eight were exactly what we thought she would have got if she had took the exams, one subject was graded one a grade higher. We are all so relieved, it`s been a nightmare few days.

Jonathan said:

Phew! Jonathan Jr received the GCSEs he deserved today. Not at the mercy of some crappy algorithm.

Pleased for you both.

But what about next year's Year 11s who will, not unreasonably, object if the exams return them to the sorts of result people got in 2019 rather than matching the results spike in 2020?

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

SouthamObserver said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1296108030636040192

It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?

Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university

FeersumEnjineeya said:

DavidL said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

My lad received an excellent set of GCSE results today, but he's not best pleased. Why? Well, he attends a boys' grammar school which also takes girls in the 6th form. However, grade inflation means that more boys than usual will be able to proceed into the 6th form, which means fewer places remaining for students from other schools and, in particular, the local girls' grammar. So although he is pleased to be entering the 6th form, as expected, he says there will be more of the dopey kids who would otherwise have been chucked out and fewer potential girlfriends!

With strategic thinking like that he will do fine.

On a more serious note, there will be quite a few girls (and their parents) who will be most disappointed that their apparently excellent grades are not sufficient for them to enter the 6th form of my son's school. It is generally regarded as the best 6th form in the area, and a fair number of girls usually switch to it from the girls' grammar school.

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

SouthamObserver said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1296108030636040192

It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?

Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university

Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?

If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

Cyclefree said:

Casino_Royale said:

algarkirk said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1296360422036185088

Does anyone know how many PR/comms people the government employ already at our expense to do this stuff, and at what cost?

You need consultants and outside help in times of crisis. That's because they can be quickly mobilised and you can get all hands to the pump for a short period, and then they can demobilise. You can't do this with just the civil service alone.

In addition the civil service pay bands and pay caps are now so limiting that anyone who knows about commerce, contracts, big programme management and delivery goes to work for the private sector - the civil service can't compete, can't get the skills, and so is obligated to "buy back" the skills through management consultancy frameworks, which cost even more.

It's a perverse but obvious consequence of the Government pandering to newspaper headlines with public sector pay ("no-one can be paid more than the Prime Minister") and the knee-capping it gets from civil service trade unions in flexing pay.

A better question is why it's always the Big4, Bain, McKinsey and Boston that get all the contracts, rather than independent experts and consultants. The answer is that the public procurement process is too bureaucratic and sclerotic to allow them in and gives too many hurdles to jump through (including basic turnover and liability insurance pre-qualification criteria) and all those big firms are networked up to the eyeballs with the decision-makers in the public sector.

So, it won't change any time soon.

While this makes sense for the sorts of projects I understand you work on, I don’t really understand why there is any need in a crisis to get an outside consultant in to craft a “vision and narrative” for an agency. In a crisis this is nowhere near the list of priorities.

- This is not a crisis task.
- It is not clear what this even means.
- No reason not to have this go to tender.
- The agency - or the two agencies to be merged - already largely exist so there is already a statement of what needs to be done.
- If it is modelled on the German Institute their “vision” (ridiculous word anyway) can be used.

It sounds like obfuscatory nonsense and what it obfuscates may be more interesting than the stated objective. Or it is just people calling in consultants because they have no real idea what to do and/or want someone to hide behind and/or blame.

Re PHE, there should be a clear statement of what failings have been revealed - preferably by some sort of inquiry taking evidence, what steps are needed to remedy these failings, how the proposed changes will remedy those failings, what else it will do and how and an open, transparent process re the hiring of its senior staff and advisors on the basis of published testable criteria, rigorously and independently assessed.

None of this is happening, just the hiring of some consultants to do a lot of guff about “narratives” in a month and the suspicion, which may or may not be justified, that we are not being told the truth or the whole story about what is really going on.

And the reaction of most is a world weary complacency. Which is why it keeps on happening.

Gallowgate said:

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

SouthamObserver said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1296108030636040192

It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?

Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university

Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?

If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

So your justification for the Government not sorting out BTEC results in a timely manner is what? That they don’t go to Oxbridge or UCL, and therefore are 2nd class?

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

ydoethur said:

FPT

Carnyx said:

The very first words written into the record of the Scottish Parliament in 1999 were that it was specifically a reconvention of that closed in 1707. That was not challenged at the time.

No they were not. Here’s the official record:

http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=4160

Welcome to this, the first meeting of the Scottish Parliament established under the Scotland Act 1998. We are gathered on this day and at this time and place, in accordance with The Scottish Parliament (First Ordinary General Election and First Meeting) Order 1999. As provided by the standing orders, my role is to preside over the proceedings to enable the oldest qualified member to take the oath or make a solemn affirmation.

Which accepts this was a new Parliament established under a new act.

I’m getting really quite worried that even sensible Nats are getting more and more divorced from reality, like Cummings or Farage. Business for Scotland and the National are we all know fake news websites that can’t be trusted, but Carnyx is a sensible and intelligent poster.

Yet even he(?) has swallowed the lies of the Nats’ propagandists whole. No wonder support for independence is increasing if this horseshit is swallowed without question.

Ydoethur , you are getting increasingly shrill about independence, is it worrying you that much. Seeing conspiracy everywhere, I am getting concerned about you. Just relax and accept the union is dead , Saor Alba.

Stop following fake news from deranged xenophobes and the problem vanishes, Malc.

Whatever the Scots do, I don't want to see a government led by people like Business for Scotland on the northern border of England. They're starting to make me think kindly of Cummings, and I would willingly have sworn that was impossible.

I only follow one or two individuals and am bright enough to read and understand reality , Business for Scotland are no worse ( and in fact better ) than many shady unionist propaganda units and 77 Brigade , GCHQ etc. You are brainwashed by unionist propaganda and anything in Scotland will be, of no concern to England. I don't see them ( a ONE man band !!!! )crossing under cover of darkness and putting pamphlets up in England.

Malcolm - I am not brainwashed. I see things as they are. As for your own view - when have you ever posted anything that criticised the nationalist movement (not the SNP, because you criticise them all the time)?

But I'm not going to allow repeated fake news to be fed to people without challenge.

In any case, my original post wasn't aimed at you. So I'm not sure why you're getting so worked up about it.

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

algarkirk said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1296360422036185088

Does anyone know how many PR/comms people the government employ already at our expense to do this stuff, and at what cost?

You need consultants and outside help in times of crisis. That's because they can be quickly mobilised and you can get all hands to the pump for a short period, and then they can demobilise. You can't do this with just the civil service alone.

In addition the civil service pay bands and pay caps are now so limiting that anyone who knows about commerce, contracts, big programme management and delivery goes to work for the private sector - the civil service can't compete, can't get the skills, and so is obligated to "buy back" the skills through management consultancy frameworks, which cost even more.

It's a perverse but obvious consequence of the Government pandering to newspaper headlines with public sector pay ("no-one can be paid more than the Prime Minister") and the knee-capping it gets from civil service trade unions in flexing pay.

A better question is why it's always the Big4, Bain, McKinsey and Boston that get all the contracts, rather than independent experts and consultants. The answer is that the public procurement process is too bureaucratic and sclerotic to allow them in and gives too many hurdles to jump through (including basic turnover and liability insurance pre-qualification criteria) and all those big firms are networked up to the eyeballs with the decision-makers in the public sector.

So, it won't change any time soon.

To be fair the government seem to be very keen on awarding this new consultancy with lots of work, they dont even have to do the tender stage:

http://www.publicfirst.co.uk/our-people.html

noneoftheabove said:

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

SouthamObserver said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1296108030636040192

It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?

Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university

Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?

If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

If levelling up is about two handfuls of poorer students going to Oxbridge instead of one handful, you are going to have millions of disgruntled voters in 2024.

There are 250k Btec students waiting for their results, about 100k of who are wanting to get into universities. The universities are struggling to get all the students who qualify onto their courses. Inevitably those who suffer will be the BTEC students who wont get their final grades until a week before university terms start. It is a shocking disgrace, just as bad as the A-level fiasco, maybe even worse, but wont get the same national attention because no one really believes in levelling up outside of election campaigns.

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1296385769184075778

malcolmg said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

algarkirk said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1296360422036185088

Does anyone know how many PR/comms people the government employ already at our expense to do this stuff, and at what cost?

You need consultants and outside help in times of crisis. That's because they can be quickly mobilised and you can get all hands to the pump for a short period, and then they can demobilise. You can't do this with just the civil service alone.

In addition the civil service pay bands and pay caps are now so limiting that anyone who knows about commerce, contracts, big programme management and delivery goes to work for the private sector - the civil service can't compete, can't get the skills, and so is obligated to "buy back" the skills through management consultancy frameworks, which cost even more.

It's a perverse but obvious consequence of the Government pandering to newspaper headlines with public sector pay ("no-one can be paid more than the Prime Minister") and the knee-capping it gets from civil service trade unions in flexing pay.

A better question is why it's always the Big4, Bain, McKinsey and Boston that get all the contracts, rather than independent experts and consultants. The answer is that the public procurement process is too bureaucratic and sclerotic to allow them in and gives too many hurdles to jump through (including basic turnover and liability insurance pre-qualification criteria) and all those big firms are networked up to the eyeballs with the decision-makers in the public sector.

So, it won't change any time soon.

To be fair the government seem to be very keen on awarding this new consultancy with lots of work, they dont even have to do the tender stage:

http://www.publicfirst.co.uk/our-people.html

You can bet it is crammed with chums and toffs

SouthamObserver said:

"A quiet coup" is underway in the UK. Sounds dramatic? Read this and tell me what the author is getting wrong. And all this before judicial review is effectively neutered.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/19/johnson-parliament-cummings-britain-democracy

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Scott_xP said:

ydoethur said:

The one faint silver lining to all this is that the people in charge are surely completely cooked. It has been publicly demonstrated how utterly arrogant, useless and pathetic they are. If OFQUAL still exists on 31st March next year I will be amazed.

https://twitter.com/PershoreDan/status/1296349926323101696

NB. All the governments across the UK

nichomar said:

Andy_Cooke said:

Nigelb said:

rkrkrk said:

Nigelb said:

A good thread.

https://twitter.com/firefoxx66/status/1296080742607355904

Pretty depressing!

I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.

I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.

According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.

Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling

Anabobazina said:

nichomar said:

Andy_Cooke said:

Nigelb said:

rkrkrk said:

Nigelb said:

A good thread.

https://twitter.com/firefoxx66/status/1296080742607355904

Pretty depressing!

I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.

I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.

According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.

Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling

The elderly and vulnerable.

As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...

NerysHughes said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1296065755793043457

A "lost generation." What on earth does that mean? All students have got at least what their teachers predicted, how has that created a lost generation?

Anabobazina said:

nichomar said:

Andy_Cooke said:

Nigelb said:

rkrkrk said:

Nigelb said:

A good thread.

https://twitter.com/firefoxx66/status/1296080742607355904

Pretty depressing!

I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.

I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.

According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.

Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling

The elderly and vulnerable.

As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...

DecrepiterJohnL said:

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

SouthamObserver said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1296108030636040192

It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?

Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university

Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?

If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

If levelling up is about two handfuls of poorer students going to Oxbridge instead of one handful, you are going to have millions of disgruntled voters in 2024.

There are 250k Btec students waiting for their results, about 100k of who are wanting to get into universities. The universities are struggling to get all the students who qualify onto their courses. Inevitably those who suffer will be the BTEC students who wont get their final grades until a week before university terms start. It is a shocking disgrace, just as bad as the A-level fiasco, maybe even worse, but wont get the same national attention because no one really believes in levelling up outside of election campaigns.

Most graduates now vote Labour, especially those who do not go on to the Russell Group and a high earning professional career and yet still have lots of student debt.

The skilled working class though is increasingly voting Tory as are those who own their own home or have got on the property ladder with a mortgage, it therefore makes sense for this Tory government to encourage BTEC students to get an apprenticeship and avoid going to university with student debt and increase their chances of getting on the property ladder earlier

It also shows the toxicity of the student debt issue, and how George Osborne screwed it up. An actual graduate tax as opposed to the de facto one Osborne imposed would not have the problem that students graduate with a £30,000 debt hanging over them -- and let us take a moment to appreciate the irony that it is those who eventually have it written off are the ones who have the debt, putting them off voting Conservative, for longest.

Theuniondivvie said:

Screeching u turn news (or more likely it was originally wee diddies mouthing off without authority).

https://twitter.com/northsoundnews/status/1296134471385845761?s=20

Presumably the Nats sent the Yestapo in with rubber truncheons.

SouthamObserver said:

"A quiet coup" is underway in the UK. Sounds dramatic? Read this and tell me what the author is getting wrong. And all this before judicial review is effectively neutered.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/19/johnson-parliament-cummings-britain-democracy

DecrepiterJohnL said:

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

SouthamObserver said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1296108030636040192

It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?

Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university

Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?

If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

If levelling up is about two handfuls of poorer students going to Oxbridge instead of one handful, you are going to have millions of disgruntled voters in 2024.

There are 250k Btec students waiting for their results, about 100k of who are wanting to get into universities. The universities are struggling to get all the students who qualify onto their courses. Inevitably those who suffer will be the BTEC students who wont get their final grades until a week before university terms start. It is a shocking disgrace, just as bad as the A-level fiasco, maybe even worse, but wont get the same national attention because no one really believes in levelling up outside of election campaigns.

Most graduates now vote Labour, especially those who do not go on to the Russell Group and a high earning professional career and yet still have lots of student debt.

The skilled working class though is increasingly voting Tory as are those who own their own home or have got on the property ladder with a mortgage, it therefore makes sense for this Tory government to encourage BTEC students to get an apprenticeship and avoid going to university with student debt and increase their chances of getting on the property ladder earlier

It also shows the toxicity of the student debt issue, and how George Osborne screwed it up. An actual graduate tax as opposed to the de facto one Osborne imposed would not have the problem that students graduate with a £30,000 debt hanging over them -- and let us take a moment to appreciate the irony that it is those who eventually have it written off are the ones who have the debt, putting them off voting Conservative, for longest.

eristdoof said:

Anabobazina said:

nichomar said:

Andy_Cooke said:

Nigelb said:

rkrkrk said:

Nigelb said:

A good thread.

https://twitter.com/firefoxx66/status/1296080742607355904

Pretty depressing!

I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.

I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.

According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.

Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling

The elderly and vulnerable.

As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...

The most effective use of the vaccine will be to innoculate those who come in to contact with the most people, regardless of their risk status.

LostPassword said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

SouthamObserver said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1296108030636040192

It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?

Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university

Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?

If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

If levelling up is about two handfuls of poorer students going to Oxbridge instead of one handful, you are going to have millions of disgruntled voters in 2024.

There are 250k Btec students waiting for their results, about 100k of who are wanting to get into universities. The universities are struggling to get all the students who qualify onto their courses. Inevitably those who suffer will be the BTEC students who wont get their final grades until a week before university terms start. It is a shocking disgrace, just as bad as the A-level fiasco, maybe even worse, but wont get the same national attention because no one really believes in levelling up outside of election campaigns.

Most graduates now vote Labour, especially those who do not go on to the Russell Group and a high earning professional career and yet still have lots of student debt.

The skilled working class though is increasingly voting Tory as are those who own their own home or have got on the property ladder with a mortgage, it therefore makes sense for this Tory government to encourage BTEC students to get an apprenticeship and avoid going to university with student debt and increase their chances of getting on the property ladder earlier

It also shows the toxicity of the student debt issue, and how George Osborne screwed it up. An actual graduate tax as opposed to the de facto one Osborne imposed would not have the problem that students graduate with a £30,000 debt hanging over them -- and let us take a moment to appreciate the irony that it is those who eventually have it written off are the ones who have the debt, putting them off voting Conservative, for longest.

The problem with a graduate tax is that it provides an incentive to move abroad to work, and avoid the extra tax. Structuring it as debt has the advantage of avoiding that problem (at the expense of others).

The obvious solution is to say that good universities are a public good that we all benefit from and should all fund through general taxation. If that isn't true, then really the government should have nothing to do with it.

That this obvious solution can't be taken is because politicians have spent decades telling the voters they can have all the good public services they want without having to pay for them, and the public have been willingly deceived.

nichomar said:

MaxPB said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

My lad received an excellent set of GCSE results today, but he's not best pleased. Why? Well, he attends a boys' grammar school which also takes girls in the 6th form. However, grade inflation means that more boys than usual will be able to proceed into the 6th form, which means fewer places remaining for students from other schools and, in particular, the local girls' grammar. So although he is pleased to be entering the 6th form, as expected, he says there will be more of the dopey kids who would otherwise have been chucked out and fewer potential girlfriends!

After 5 years in an all boys school that's pretty tough, the coeducational sixth form was such a huge change for all of us, it did almost make me completely fuck up my A-Levels though, got a bunch of Bs and Cs at AS level and had to do loads of resits privately to bring my grades up, it definitely cost me a place at Cambridge because my predictions were middling but I got all As in the end after resits and almost being disowned by my parents for daring to get a grade other an an A.

Hopefully you don’t put your own children under such unnecessary pressure?

houndtang said:

Spanish doctor tells the truth about the 'pandemic' - media types outraged that he is undermining their narrative.

https://youtu.be/SwlkumcRf6w

eristdoof said:

Anabobazina said:

nichomar said:

Andy_Cooke said:

Nigelb said:

rkrkrk said:

Nigelb said:

A good thread.

https://twitter.com/firefoxx66/status/1296080742607355904

Pretty depressing!

I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.

I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.

According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.

Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling

The elderly and vulnerable.

As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...

The most effective use of the vaccine will be to innoculate those who come in to contact with the most people, regardless of their risk status.

DavidL said:

houndtang said:

Spanish doctor tells the truth about the 'pandemic' - media types outraged that he is undermining their narrative.

https://youtu.be/SwlkumcRf6w

That's quite funny.

SandyRentool said:

nichomar said:

MaxPB said:

nichomar said:

MaxPB said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

My lad received an excellent set of GCSE results today, but he's not best pleased. Why? Well, he attends a boys' grammar school which also takes girls in the 6th form. However, grade inflation means that more boys than usual will be able to proceed into the 6th form, which means fewer places remaining for students from other schools and, in particular, the local girls' grammar. So although he is pleased to be entering the 6th form, as expected, he says there will be more of the dopey kids who would otherwise have been chucked out and fewer potential girlfriends!

After 5 years in an all boys school that's pretty tough, the coeducational sixth form was such a huge change for all of us, it did almost make me completely fuck up my A-Levels though, got a bunch of Bs and Cs at AS level and had to do loads of resits privately to bring my grades up, it definitely cost me a place at Cambridge because my predictions were middling but I got all As in the end after resits and almost being disowned by my parents for daring to get a grade other an an A.

Hopefully you don’t put your own children under such unnecessary pressure?

Why? It's worked well for me and my sister. Both of us have highly successful careers, whatever my parents did was for a very good reason.

If that’s all there is to life earning money and having more than everybody else.

Work hard until you are 21. Good A levels, good degree. Then you can get a professional job and coast on a decent salary.

It is worth the effort up front to get the lifetime benefits.

SandyRentool said:

nichomar said:

MaxPB said:

nichomar said:

MaxPB said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

My lad received an excellent set of GCSE results today, but he's not best pleased. Why? Well, he attends a boys' grammar school which also takes girls in the 6th form. However, grade inflation means that more boys than usual will be able to proceed into the 6th form, which means fewer places remaining for students from other schools and, in particular, the local girls' grammar. So although he is pleased to be entering the 6th form, as expected, he says there will be more of the dopey kids who would otherwise have been chucked out and fewer potential girlfriends!

After 5 years in an all boys school that's pretty tough, the coeducational sixth form was such a huge change for all of us, it did almost make me completely fuck up my A-Levels though, got a bunch of Bs and Cs at AS level and had to do loads of resits privately to bring my grades up, it definitely cost me a place at Cambridge because my predictions were middling but I got all As in the end after resits and almost being disowned by my parents for daring to get a grade other an an A.

Hopefully you don’t put your own children under such unnecessary pressure?

Why? It's worked well for me and my sister. Both of us have highly successful careers, whatever my parents did was for a very good reason.

If that’s all there is to life earning money and having more than everybody else.

Work hard until you are 21. Good A levels, good degree. Then you can get a professional job and coast on a decent salary.

It is worth the effort up front to get the lifetime benefits.

Carnyx said:

ydoethur said:

Theuniondivvie said:

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

ydoethur said:

FPT

Carnyx said:

The very first words written into the record of the Scottish Parliament in 1999 were that it was specifically a reconvention of that closed in 1707. That was not challenged at the time.

No they were not. Here’s the official record:

http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=4160

Welcome to this, the first meeting of the Scottish Parliament established under the Scotland Act 1998. We are gathered on this day and at this time and place, in accordance with The Scottish Parliament (First Ordinary General Election and First Meeting) Order 1999. As provided by the standing orders, my role is to preside over the proceedings to enable the oldest qualified member to take the oath or make a solemn affirmation.

Which accepts this was a new Parliament established under a new act.

I’m getting really quite worried that even sensible Nats are getting more and more divorced from reality, like Cummings or Farage. Business for Scotland and the National are we all know fake news websites that can’t be trusted, but Carnyx is a sensible and intelligent poster.

Yet even he(?) has swallowed the lies of the Nats’ propagandists whole. No wonder support for independence is increasing if this horseshit is swallowed without question.

Ydoethur , you are getting increasingly shrill about independence, is it worrying you that much. Seeing conspiracy everywhere, I am getting concerned about you. Just relax and accept the union is dead , Saor Alba.

Stop following fake news from deranged xenophobes and the problem vanishes, Malc.

Whatever the Scots do, I don't want to see a government led by people like Business for Scotland on the northern border of England. They're starting to make me think kindly of Cummings, and I would willingly have sworn that was impossible.

I only follow one or two individuals and am bright enough to read and understand reality , Business for Scotland are no worse ( and in fact better ) than many shady unionist propaganda units and 77 Brigade , GCHQ etc. You are brainwashed by unionist propaganda and anything in Scotland will be, of no concern to England. I don't see them ( a ONE man band !!!! )crossing under cover of darkness and putting pamphlets up in England.

I am not brainwashed. I see things as they are.

One of the most persuasive and winningest arguments evah to be heard on PB.

I am delighted my sheer brilliance overawes you. I know that we Welsh are naturally awesome but don't worry, we have a deep affection for the Scottish people as well.

But in this case, as I had refuted a claim by linking to the actual record - as I did before - I'm quite happy that my statement is supported by ample evidence.

See my comment a moment ago.

DavidL said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1296385188533022721

Because they always do?

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Scott_xP said:

ydoethur said:

The one faint silver lining to all this is that the people in charge are surely completely cooked. It has been publicly demonstrated how utterly arrogant, useless and pathetic they are. If OFQUAL still exists on 31st March next year I will be amazed.

https://twitter.com/PershoreDan/status/1296349926323101696

NB. All the governments across the UK

Ofqual is UK now , I presume that is as in UK = England sense.

MarqueeMark said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1296394949437595649?s=20

Does Boris have a really outsized head? Or is the new Scottish leader a pinhead? Or is Boris leaning into the camera to give an exaggerated effect? Or is it a photoshop on different scales? I can't tell....

Philip_Thompson said:

MaxPB said:

Anabobazina said:

eristdoof said:

Anabobazina said:

nichomar said:

Andy_Cooke said:

Nigelb said:

rkrkrk said:

Nigelb said:

A good thread.

https://twitter.com/firefoxx66/status/1296080742607355904

Pretty depressing!

I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.

I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.

According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.

Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling

The elderly and vulnerable.

As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...

The most effective use of the vaccine will be to innoculate those who come in to contact with the most people, regardless of their risk status.

Yes, frontline workers etc.

Other than that, the government will priorities the elderly, obese and vulnerable – and will have to explain to millions of fearful people that, in fact, they aren't really at much risk.

Front line workers, retail workers, the productive middle aged and the productive young. If we waste limited vaccine capacity on old people we will hold back the economy. Honestly it's time to tell the Daily Mail to fuck off.

The productive healthy young if they're not front line don't need the vaccine that much.

The whole reason we don't want the productive healthy young to get the disease is so they don't pass it on to the old. Once the frontline and the old are vaccinated the young can rather get back to normal even before they are vaccinated.

My wife is a frontline health worker, working with the vulnerable, I'd expect her to be near the front of the queue for a vaccine. But I have absolutely no desire to get the vaccine myself before my grandparents do.

MarqueeMark said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1296394949437595649?s=20

Does Boris have a really outsized head? Or is the new Scottish leader a pinhead? Or is Boris leaning into the camera to give an exaggerated effect? Or is it a photoshop on different scales? I can't tell....

MarqueeMark said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1296394949437595649?s=20

Does Boris have a really outsized head? Or is the new Scottish leader a pinhead? Or is Boris leaning into the camera to give an exaggerated effect? Or is it a photoshop on different scales? I can't tell....

Theuniondivvie said:

Screeching u turn news (or more likely it was originally wee diddies mouthing off without authority).

https://twitter.com/northsoundnews/status/1296134471385845761?s=20

Presumably the Nats sent the Yestapo in with rubber truncheons.

MaxPB said:

Philip_Thompson said:

MaxPB said:

Anabobazina said:

eristdoof said:

Anabobazina said:

nichomar said:

Andy_Cooke said:

Nigelb said:

rkrkrk said:

Nigelb said:

A good thread.

https://twitter.com/firefoxx66/status/1296080742607355904

Pretty depressing!

I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.

I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.

According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.

Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling

The elderly and vulnerable.

As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...

The most effective use of the vaccine will be to innoculate those who come in to contact with the most people, regardless of their risk status.

Yes, frontline workers etc.

Other than that, the government will priorities the elderly, obese and vulnerable – and will have to explain to millions of fearful people that, in fact, they aren't really at much risk.

Front line workers, retail workers, the productive middle aged and the productive young. If we waste limited vaccine capacity on old people we will hold back the economy. Honestly it's time to tell the Daily Mail to fuck off.

The productive healthy young if they're not front line don't need the vaccine that much.

The whole reason we don't want the productive healthy young to get the disease is so they don't pass it on to the old. Once the frontline and the old are vaccinated the young can rather get back to normal even before they are vaccinated.

My wife is a frontline health worker, working with the vulnerable, I'd expect her to be near the front of the queue for a vaccine. But I have absolutely no desire to get the vaccine myself before my grandparents do.

With a relatively new vaccine you'd want older people to benefit from not coming into contact with people who can spread it which means vaccinate everyone else first. Additionally, getting the economy back up to full speed is and should always be priority one which means getting young people back into offices is up there somewhere. Whatever outrage the Daily Mail come up with should just be ignored there's no economic or scientific case to prioritise older people over the economically productive.

noneoftheabove said:

eristdoof said:

Anabobazina said:

nichomar said:

Andy_Cooke said:

Nigelb said:

rkrkrk said:

Nigelb said:

A good thread.

https://twitter.com/firefoxx66/status/1296080742607355904

Pretty depressing!

I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.

I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.

According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.

Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling

The elderly and vulnerable.

As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...

The most effective use of the vaccine will be to innoculate those who come in to contact with the most people, regardless of their risk status.

If they are in short supply presumably the first criteria should be to require a negative antibodies test? Gets you onto 10-20% before you have given a single vaccine.