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Quicker to just marry a UK citizen, no?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
2 -
Every British government since the Anglo-Irish Treaty as allowed free entry of Free State/Republic citizens, in the interest of the British labor supply. Very few exceptions, for example in lead up to D-Day.
Not surprising that current government does not (apparently) plan on abrogating this policy - because THAT would truly be a self-denying ordinance.
2 -
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case0 -
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?2 -
Which is exactly the case if someone flies from Bucharest to Dublin to London.HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
0 -
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.0 -
As there will be less checks than at Dover or Heathrow if they fly to Bristol or take the ferry to Liverpool for example if there was full unchecked free movement from the Republic to GBrcs1000 said:
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?0 -
It's a well known fact that Irish lasses are desperate to marry Romanians who are keen to be taxi drivers in the UK three years hence.Philip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
If you look at match.com it's full of "My name is Niko. I am from Bucharest. I would like to meet beautiful Irish girl for marriage and potential Irish citizenship so I can move to Catford and drive and drive an Uber."4 -
You just admitted that the only remedy would be deportation, so why do checks on the border matter?HYUFD said:
As there will be less checks than at Dover or Heathrow than if they fly to Bristol or take the ferry to Liverpool for examplercs1000 said:
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?0 -
Yes. The whole of the UK. NI is the UK. My country. Not something for the Conservative and Unionist Party to just throw away against the wishes of NI. Laws and Treaties and Agreements involving the UK involve the UK. Not bits of it excluded. HYUFD seems utterly obsessed with ending free movement within the Union he claims to be the proponent of. A pity we can't end free movement instead out of Epping. Build a Wall!Philip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.1 -
If they have a valid Romanian passport they will be let in. Just as you will be let into France due to your valid British passport.HYUFD said:
As there will be less checks than at Dover or Heathrow than if they fly to Bristol or take the ferry to Liverpool for examplercs1000 said:
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?
It is not entry into the UK that is prohibited, it is working.2 -
She's also overlooked the prevailing wisdom that London is finished. Perhaps she means York?Philip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.0 -
Because we are being beseiged by foreigners! Argh! They keep coming to pollute our natural bodily fluids with their evil chlorine! We have to keep them out!williamglenn said:
You just admitted that the only remedy would be deportation, so why do checks on the border matter?HYUFD said:
As there will be less checks than at Dover or Heathrow than if they fly to Bristol or take the ferry to Liverpool for examplercs1000 said:
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?0 -
In the unlikely event that’s true, the evil old fuck sleeps more soundly than he deserves.williamglenn said:Scottish independence would be Putin's worst nightmare because it would provide inspiration to those within his own empire who oppose his imperialism.
0 -
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.0 -
Have you ever seen a liberal drink tap water, RP?RochdalePioneers said:
Because we are being beseiged by foreigners! Argh! They keep coming to pollute our natural bodily fluids with their evil chlorine! We have to keep them out!williamglenn said:
You just admitted that the only remedy would be deportation, so why do checks on the border matter?HYUFD said:
As there will be less checks than at Dover or Heathrow than if they fly to Bristol or take the ferry to Liverpool for examplercs1000 said:
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?0 -
Migration isn't about checks at the border.HYUFD said:
As there will be less checks than at Dover or Heathrow if they fly to Bristol or take the ferry to Liverpool for example if there was full unchecked free movement from the Republic to GBrcs1000 said:
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?1 -
As they reduce the number of deportations you have to deploy resources to dowilliamglenn said:
You just admitted that the only remedy would be deportation, so why do checks on the border matter?HYUFD said:
As there will be less checks than at Dover or Heathrow than if they fly to Bristol or take the ferry to Liverpool for examplercs1000 said:
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?0 -
I did make that mistake, but i believe HYUFD is of the fairer sex.RochdalePioneers said:
Yes. The whole of the UK. NI is the UK. My country. Not something for the Conservative and Unionist Party to just throw away against the wishes of NI. Laws and Treaties and Agreements involving the UK involve the UK. Not bits of it excluded. HYUFD seems utterly obsessed with ending free movement within the Union he claims to be the proponent of. A pity we can't end free movement instead out of Epping. Build a Wall!Philip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.0 -
How will you distinguish between genuine tourists and illegal workers at the border?HYUFD said:
As they reduce the number of deportations you have to deploy resources to dowilliamglenn said:
You just admitted that the only remedy would be deportation, so why do checks on the border matter?HYUFD said:
As there will be less checks than at Dover or Heathrow than if they fly to Bristol or take the ferry to Liverpool for examplercs1000 said:
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?0 -
Which they will do checks to ensure you will not be doingrcs1000 said:
If they have a valid Romanian passport they will be let in. Just as you will be let into France due to your valid British passport.HYUFD said:
As there will be less checks than at Dover or Heathrow than if they fly to Bristol or take the ferry to Liverpool for examplercs1000 said:
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?
It is not entry into the UK that is prohibited, it is working.0 -
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???1 -
Free movement has NOTHING to do with the borders.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
Free movement means that Irish citizens can come here and legally live and work.
Restricted movement means that non Irish EU citizens can come here for tourism etc but need a visa to be able to work. How does flying via Dublin magically give you proof of right to work?1 -
You'll ask them, silly.williamglenn said:
How will you distinguish between genuine tourists and illegal workers at the border?HYUFD said:
As they reduce the number of deportations you have to deploy resources to dowilliamglenn said:
You just admitted that the only remedy would be deportation, so why do checks on the border matter?HYUFD said:
As there will be less checks than at Dover or Heathrow than if they fly to Bristol or take the ferry to Liverpool for examplercs1000 said:
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?0 -
In the same way we do for every non EU nation nowwilliamglenn said:
How will you distinguish between genuine tourists and illegal workers at the border?HYUFD said:
As they reduce the number of deportations you have to deploy resources to dowilliamglenn said:
You just admitted that the only remedy would be deportation, so why do checks on the border matter?HYUFD said:
As there will be less checks than at Dover or Heathrow than if they fly to Bristol or take the ferry to Liverpool for examplercs1000 said:
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?0 -
No they don't.HYUFD said:
As they reduce the number of deportations you have to deploy resources to dowilliamglenn said:
You just admitted that the only remedy would be deportation, so why do checks on the border matter?HYUFD said:
As there will be less checks than at Dover or Heathrow than if they fly to Bristol or take the ferry to Liverpool for examplercs1000 said:
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?
Deportations would only be necessary if people illegally start working in this country after legally entering the country. Since they will retain full rights to legally enter the country they'd have no need to travel via Dublin or anywhere else.0 -
Waking up are you? This has always been the elephant in the room. Free movement in the EU, Free movement in the CTA and no intra Irish border means anyone can wander in. But as Philip keeps pointing out the ability to arrive unchecked isn't the same as the ability to legally work/ reside, and illegals can just fly into anywhere instead of that roundabout route.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
We *cannot* take back control of our borders as your party promised. It was a lie or they are stupid or both.0 -
How's that then?HYUFD said:
In the same way we do for every non EU nation nowwilliamglenn said:
How will you distinguish between genuine tourists and illegal workers at the border?HYUFD said:
As they reduce the number of deportations you have to deploy resources to dowilliamglenn said:
You just admitted that the only remedy would be deportation, so why do checks on the border matter?HYUFD said:
As there will be less checks than at Dover or Heathrow than if they fly to Bristol or take the ferry to Liverpool for examplercs1000 said:
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?1 -
No they won't. You will be allowed in without checks along those lines just as we will be allowed to fly to there.HYUFD said:
Which they will do checks to ensure you will not be doingrcs1000 said:
If they have a valid Romanian passport they will be let in. Just as you will be let into France due to your valid British passport.HYUFD said:
As there will be less checks than at Dover or Heathrow than if they fly to Bristol or take the ferry to Liverpool for examplercs1000 said:
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?
It is not entry into the UK that is prohibited, it is working.0 -
But we don't do that at the border now. We never have.HYUFD said:
In the same way we do for every non EU nation nowwilliamglenn said:
How will you distinguish between genuine tourists and illegal workers at the border?HYUFD said:
As they reduce the number of deportations you have to deploy resources to dowilliamglenn said:
You just admitted that the only remedy would be deportation, so why do checks on the border matter?HYUFD said:
As there will be less checks than at Dover or Heathrow than if they fly to Bristol or take the ferry to Liverpool for examplercs1000 said:
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?0 -
Straw Poll time. Who is arguing with HYUFD in the expectation that she will admit she was wrong?
If we can convince HYUFD that we are a representative sample of the population, will she be forced to bow to the wisdom of polls and back down?1 -
How?HYUFD said:
Which they will do checks to ensure you will not be doingrcs1000 said:
If they have a valid Romanian passport they will be let in. Just as you will be let into France due to your valid British passport.HYUFD said:
As there will be less checks than at Dover or Heathrow than if they fly to Bristol or take the ferry to Liverpool for examplercs1000 said:
So, why would a Romanian go via Dublin to enter the UK? How do they benefit from adding a thousand miles and a massive amount of hassle?HYUFD said:
You could do that coming from outside the EU, if you did you would be an illegal immigrant who could be deportedwilliamglenn said:
How will a points system stop someone coming to visit Salisbury cathedral and then working cash in hand at a carwash?HYUFD said:As from December there will be a points system you need to meet to migrate to the UK, if there are no checks on migration from the Republic to GB then Romanians could still pursue free movement from Bucharest to Dublin to London
Or do you think that travelling via Ireland magically absolves you of the requirement to have an appropriate work permit in the UK?
It is not entry into the UK that is prohibited, it is working.
"Are you coming to the UK to work?"
The reality is that border control in the UK, for visitors from the EU, Switzerland and a number of other partner countries exists to check people have valid passports.
You won't even need to have memorised your response to the border agent: "No, I is here for my cousin's wedding. He marry Irish girl who is desperate to be together with Romanian Uber driver" then1 -
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???0 -
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.2 -
So you accept that the Scots will almost certainly have a legal right to enter, live and work in England post independence. It's unlikely that they will withdraw from the CTA, and it's unlikely that we will (or could) insist that they leave. That's all we needed to establish.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
0 -
Well actually they won't. There is no "passport control" for movement between the CTA. They would need to present their passport to work though.Philip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.1 -
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of ID will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB via Dublin and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.0 -
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.1 -
How do they bypass free movement restrictions?HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of ID will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB via Dublin and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.
Free movement restrictions don't mean people can't enter this country. They mean they can't legally work in this country and need proof of right to work to get a legal job and settle down.
How does flying via Dublin magically get you proof of right to work in the UK?1 -
I think Philip takes great pleasure arguing with HYUFD because she was a remainer. We like to think that Brexiteers often didn't know what they were voting for. It doesn't help when remainers masquerading as Brexiteers don't know what either were voting for.0
-
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.0 -
So, what you're saying is that this will successfully weed out those Romanians who are unable to persuade the Romanian government that they deserve a passport.HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.
1 -
No. HYUFD is a fool and it is embarrassing he or she is a part of my party. Completely ignorant.alex_ said:I think Philip takes great pleasure arguing with HYUFD because she was a remainer. We like to think that Brexiteers often didn't know what they were voting for. It doesn't help when remainers masquerading as Brexiteers don't know what either were voting for.
How can I criticise people supporting other parties for the mote in their eyes if don't tackle the beam in HYUFD's?0 -
Might arose a bit of suspicion if they don't speak great English though. Safer to pose as an Eastern European i reckon. What "fake ID" are you anticipating them using? A Dublin Library card?HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictions1 -
Valid right to work is needed to get a job not for tourism.HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.0 -
So you’re not anticipating equivalence and minimal change in financial services in the final EU-UK trade agreement? Have you told the City of London and the Chancellor?HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.0 -
A party you don't always vote for anyway, you voted New Labour, you voted Brexit Party, you cannot claim the Tory Party as your ownPhilip_Thompson said:
No. HYUFD is a fool and it is embarrassing he or she is a part of my party. Completely ignorant.alex_ said:I think Philip takes great pleasure arguing with HYUFD because she was a remainer. We like to think that Brexiteers often didn't know what they were voting for. It doesn't help when remainers masquerading as Brexiteers don't know what either were voting for.
How can I criticise people supporting other parties for the mote in their eyes if don't tackle the beam in HYUFD's?0 -
And who decide that an Irish Driver's'licence is easier to fake than a Romanian passport.rcs1000 said:
So, what you're saying is that this will successfully weed out those Romanians who are unable to persuade the Romanian government that they deserve a passport.HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.
But how is this Romanian going to get into Ireland in the first place...?0 -
MCALPINE'S FUSILIERS
The Dubliners
As down the glen came McAlpine's men
With their shovels slung behind them
'Twas in the pub they drank the sub
And up in the Spike you'd find them
They sweated blood and they washed down mud
With pints and quarts of beer
And now we're on the road again
With McAlpine's Fusiliers
I stripped to the skin with Darky Flynn
Way down upon the Isle of Grain
With the Horseface Toole, then I knew the rule
No money if you stop for rain
McAlpine's God was a well filled hod
Your shoulders cut to bits and seared
And woe to he with a love for tea
With McAlpine's Fusiliers
I remember the day that the Bere O'Shea
Fell into a concrete stairs
What the Horseface said, when he saw him dead
Well, it wasn't what the rich call prayers
I'm a navvy short was the one retort
That reached unto my ears
When the going is rough, well you must be tough
With McAlpine's Fusiliers
I've worked 'till the sweat has had me bet
With Russian, Czech and Pole
On shuddering jams up in the hydro dams
Or underneath the Thames in a hole
I grafted hard and I've got me cards
And many a ganger's fist across me ears
If you pride your life, don't join by Christ
With McAlpine's Fusiliers0 -
And since Ireland is not in Schengen I'm curious how the Romanians without a Romanian passport got into Ireland.rcs1000 said:
So, what you're saying is that this will successfully weed out those Romanians who are unable to persuade the Romanian government that they deserve a passport.HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.0 -
You can even use a driving licence or any other form of photo ID under CTA, far easier than having to present your passport at Heathrow or Dover if you go straight to GBalex_ said:
Might arose a bit of suspicion if they don't speak great English though. Safer to pose as an Eastern European i reckon. What "fake ID" are you anticipating them using? A Dublin Library card?HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictions0 -
And that helps people get right to work how?HYUFD said:
You can even use a driving licence under CTA, far easier than having to present your passport at Heathrow or Dover if you go straight to GBalex_ said:
Might arose a bit of suspicion if they don't speak great English though. Safer to pose as an Eastern European i reckon. What "fake ID" are you anticipating them using? A Dublin Library card?HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictions
For the umpteenth time free movement has NOTHING to do with the border.1 -
How do i go about getting hold of a fake Irish Driver's licence?HYUFD said:
You can even use a driving licence under CTA, far easier than having to present your passport at Heathrow or Dover if you go straight to GBalex_ said:
Might arose a bit of suspicion if they don't speak great English though. Safer to pose as an Eastern European i reckon. What "fake ID" are you anticipating them using? A Dublin Library card?HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictions
1 -
And an Irish Drivers Licence doesn't count as proof of right to work in the UK.alex_ said:
How do i go about getting hold of a fake Irish Driver's licence?HYUFD said:
You can even use a driving licence under CTA, far easier than having to present your passport at Heathrow or Dover if you go straight to GBalex_ said:
Might arose a bit of suspicion if they don't speak great English though. Safer to pose as an Eastern European i reckon. What "fake ID" are you anticipating them using? A Dublin Library card?HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictions
Heck a UK Drivers Licence doesn't either.0 -
Once in the country far easier to go awol if you got in with an Irish ID card than if you have a Romanian passport and immigration control keeping tabs on youPhilip_Thompson said:
Valid right to work is needed to get a job not for tourism.HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.0 -
With the passport they then ditched to get into GBPhilip_Thompson said:
And since Ireland is not in Schengen I'm curious how the Romanians without a Romanian passport got into Ireland.rcs1000 said:
So, what you're saying is that this will successfully weed out those Romanians who are unable to persuade the Romanian government that they deserve a passport.HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.0 -
What will immigration control do? Send a van round to remind them to go home? Perhaps you could put an aerial on it and tell people it can detect their presence.HYUFD said:Once in the country far easier to go awol if you got in with an Irish ID card than if you have a Romanian passport and immigration control keeping tabs on you
0 -
Baby steps first Philip. I'm becoming increasingly concerned that our Romanian is not actually going to be able to get into the country, after we've been assuring HYUFD all evening that that basic threshold requirement would be a doddle.Philip_Thompson said:
And an Irish Drivers Licence doesn't count as proof of right to work in the UK.alex_ said:
How do i go about getting hold of a fake Irish Driver's licence?HYUFD said:
You can even use a driving licence under CTA, far easier than having to present your passport at Heathrow or Dover if you go straight to GBalex_ said:
Might arose a bit of suspicion if they don't speak great English though. Safer to pose as an Eastern European i reckon. What "fake ID" are you anticipating them using? A Dublin Library card?HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictions
Heck a UK Drivers Licence doesn't either.0 -
If we go to WTO Terms no but we may still get a dealsarissa said:
So you’re not anticipating equivalence and minimal change in financial services in the final EU-UK trade agreement? Have you told the City of London and the Chancellor?HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.0 -
Alex, it's LadyG. who has undergone PB gender reassignment not HYUFD, who remains Mr ***** *****. of Epping Forest.alex_ said:Straw Poll time. Who is arguing with HYUFD in the expectation that she will admit she was wrong?
If we can convince HYUFD that we are a representative sample of the population, will she be forced to bow to the wisdom of polls and back down?0 -
I think what they do is insert a microchip.williamglenn said:
What will immigration control do? Send a van round to remind them to go home? Perhaps you could put an aerial on it and tell people it can detect their presence.HYUFD said:Once in the country far easier to go awol if you got in with an Irish ID card than if you have a Romanian passport and immigration control keeping tabs on you
0 -
Wouldn't it be simpler to just enter the country on their Romanian passport?HYUFD said:
With the passport they then ditched to get into GBPhilip_Thompson said:
And since Ireland is not in Schengen I'm curious how the Romanians without a Romanian passport got into Ireland.rcs1000 said:
So, what you're saying is that this will successfully weed out those Romanians who are unable to persuade the Romanian government that they deserve a passport.HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.1 -
Apologies, i was sure at some point that HYUFD revealed himself/herself to be female. That's a shame.Mexicanpete said:
Alex, it's LadyG. who has undergone PB gender reassignment not HYUFD, who remains Mr ***** *****. of Epping Forest.alex_ said:Straw Poll time. Who is arguing with HYUFD in the expectation that she will admit she was wrong?
If we can convince HYUFD that we are a representative sample of the population, will she be forced to bow to the wisdom of polls and back down?0 -
www.twitter.com/majian53/status/12851799866437509130
-
No meddling in the Brexit referendum, but apparently in Scottish independence referendum
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/20/russia-report-kremlin-tried-meddle-scottish-independence-vote/
Edit: I see I'm late to the party. I knew it would be a damp squib!0 -
Immigration control don't keep tabs on tourists so no it is not. What tabs do you think immigration control is placing on tourists that legally fly into the UK every single day!?HYUFD said:
Once in the country far easier to go awol if you got in with an Irish ID card than if you have a Romanian passport and immigration control keeping tabs on youPhilip_Thompson said:
Valid right to work is needed to get a job not for tourism.HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.0 -
PB is gender neutral so it doesn't really matter either wayalex_ said:
Apologies, i was sure at some point that HYUFD revealed himself/herself to be female. That's a shame.Mexicanpete said:
Alex, it's LadyG. who has undergone PB gender reassignment not HYUFD, who remains Mr ***** *****. of Epping Forest.alex_ said:Straw Poll time. Who is arguing with HYUFD in the expectation that she will admit she was wrong?
If we can convince HYUFD that we are a representative sample of the population, will she be forced to bow to the wisdom of polls and back down?1 -
No, as they will then be on the immigration authorities radarrcs1000 said:
Wouldn't it be simpler to just enter the country on their Romanian passport?HYUFD said:
With the passport they then ditched to get into GBPhilip_Thompson said:
And since Ireland is not in Schengen I'm curious how the Romanians without a Romanian passport got into Ireland.rcs1000 said:
So, what you're saying is that this will successfully weed out those Romanians who are unable to persuade the Romanian government that they deserve a passport.HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.0 -
Their passport would let them fly directly into the UK. So they have no reason to ditch it.HYUFD said:
With the passport they then ditched to get into GBPhilip_Thompson said:
And since Ireland is not in Schengen I'm curious how the Romanians without a Romanian passport got into Ireland.rcs1000 said:
So, what you're saying is that this will successfully weed out those Romanians who are unable to persuade the Romanian government that they deserve a passport.HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.0 -
If you think immigration control takes no note of 'tourists' from poorer parts of the world to the UK you are very naivePhilip_Thompson said:
Immigration control don't keep tabs on tourists so no it is not. What tabs do you think immigration control is placing on tourists that legally fly into the UK every single day!?HYUFD said:
Once in the country far easier to go awol if you got in with an Irish ID card than if you have a Romanian passport and immigration control keeping tabs on youPhilip_Thompson said:
Valid right to work is needed to get a job not for tourism.HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.0 -
Why would they? And what difference would that make?HYUFD said:
No, as they will then be on the immigration authorities radarrcs1000 said:
Wouldn't it be simpler to just enter the country on their Romanian passport?HYUFD said:
With the passport they then ditched to get into GBPhilip_Thompson said:
And since Ireland is not in Schengen I'm curious how the Romanians without a Romanian passport got into Ireland.rcs1000 said:
So, what you're saying is that this will successfully weed out those Romanians who are unable to persuade the Romanian government that they deserve a passport.HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.0 -
At least there won't be any excuse for not getting a job in HYUFD's brave new world. Hell, we might need to offer the Romanian a job themself, as there's bound to be a labour shortage.HYUFD said:
No, as they will then be on the immigration authorities radarrcs1000 said:
Wouldn't it be simpler to just enter the country on their Romanian passport?HYUFD said:
With the passport they then ditched to get into GBPhilip_Thompson said:
And since Ireland is not in Schengen I'm curious how the Romanians without a Romanian passport got into Ireland.rcs1000 said:
So, what you're saying is that this will successfully weed out those Romanians who are unable to persuade the Romanian government that they deserve a passport.HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.0 -
We should have put them in charge of our COVID-19 contact tracing. A missed opportunity.HYUFD said:
If you think immigration control takes no note of 'tourists' from poorer parts of the world to the UK you are very naivePhilip_Thompson said:
Immigration control don't keep tabs on tourists so no it is not. What tabs do you think immigration control is placing on tourists that legally fly into the UK every single day!?HYUFD said:
Once in the country far easier to go awol if you got in with an Irish ID card than if you have a Romanian passport and immigration control keeping tabs on youPhilip_Thompson said:
Valid right to work is needed to get a job not for tourism.HYUFD said:
If they are coming from Ireland the default position will be no passport checks, hence far easier for them to use fake IDs, they do not have to present themselves as Eastern Europeanalex_ said:
Er - UK and Irish citizens don't have to show their passports when moving within the CTA. Eastern Europeans do. Quite why they would seek to use 'fake ID' instead of a valid passport is a bit of a mystery though. High risk, i would suggest.HYUFD said:
Under the CTA you do not even need to show your passport to come into GB from the Republic, any form of id will do, there is your loophole for Eastern Europeans with fake IDs to come into GB and bypass free movement restrictionsPhilip_Thompson said:
There is no such thing as "checks on free movement". The Irish will have to go through passport control when they fly into the country . . . But then again so do I. Even someone from Epping has to too.HYUFD said:
Of course not, my original point was an independent Scotland in the EU would face tariffs on exports to England, as the Republic would in the event of a WTO Brexit and there would also be checks on free movement from Scotland exactly the same as there will have to be from the Republicalex_ said:
Nobody said there wouldn't be checks. We established that there would be checks. What's at issue is whether those "checks" can prevent an Irish citizen from entering, living and working in the UK as a matter of legal right. Which they don't.HYUFD said:
No it isnt, as if we allow free movement from the EU to the island of Ireland and then unchecked free movement from Ireland to GB then by definition we still do not have full control of our bordersPhilip_Thompson said:
You are insane.HYUFD said:
It is a possibility yes if it is the only route for them to get to work in London for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
So you're worried we are going to be seeing Albanians and Romanians going to live in Ireland for three years, marrying an Irish citizen, claiming citizenship . . . All to move to the UK via the backdoor?HYUFD said:
They can if for instance they have been resident in Ireland for 3 years and marry an Irish citizenPhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't make Ireland relevant at all. The only way they could use Ireland as a backdoor is if they could get Irish citizenship which they can't.HYUFD said:
50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
OK.HYUFD said:
If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.rcs1000 said:
The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.HYUFD said:
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.alex_ said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdfHYUFD said:
Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GBalex_ said:
Are you sure about that?HYUFD said:
They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we needFoxy said:
Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.HYUFD said:
Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to EnglandBenpointer said:
MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.Black_Rook said:
Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.Foxy said:
It certainly is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea but going back is not an optionFoxy said:
Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?Big_G_NorthWales said:Foxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationshipsFoxy said:
Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the tableFoxy said:
Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960
£66 billion?
Seriously?
What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?
The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell
It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU
In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?
I did see this interesting polling recently:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19
I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.
In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.
Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.
Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.
If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.
All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB
You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.
The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further
Think back fifty years.
We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.
If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.
That loophole has always existed.
Here's the thing.
Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.
Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case
And the law and government policy is the Irish keep free movement. With the whole of the UK.
But anyway, did the whole issue of the Irish border/backstop pass you by completely???
There won't be restrictions on free movement for the Irish. Their passport will still be proof of right to work in the UK.0 -
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Will the EU become a poorer part of the world after Brexit?HYUFD said:If you think immigration control takes no note of 'tourists' from poorer parts of the world to the UK you are very naive
0 -
Democrats pushing Biden as the Scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz
https://twitter.com/RepStevenSmith/status/1285337937824055302?s=200 -
Most of the Eastern part for the time being yeswilliamglenn said:
Will the EU become a poorer part of the world after Brexit?HYUFD said:If you think immigration control takes no note of 'tourists' from poorer parts of the world to the UK you are very naive
0 -
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I wonder why they didn't try to meddle in the Brexit referendum.RobD said:No meddling in the Brexit referendum, but apparently in Scottish independence referendum
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/20/russia-report-kremlin-tried-meddle-scottish-independence-vote/
Edit: I see I'm late to the party. I knew it would be a damp squib!0
This discussion has been closed.