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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,470
    MaxPB said:

    Yes, I think that's a good description, but it is also related to job status. Working and non-working class is different from socioeconomic class.
    What about the situation where you have to get out of bed to work to pay your bills, along with the workers you employ?

    A lot of small business owners are doing the same work as the "workers" they employ....
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,998
    MaxPB said:

    Can someone explain how a duffer like Grayling keeps getting high level positions? The man is a disaster. I fully expect for all national secrets to leak to China.

    Grayling will not cause Johnson or Cummings problems. That is the sole criteria. See, also, the Cabinet (though they could have miscalculated with Sunak).

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,751
    RobD said:

    Any evidence that the UK would have been at the front of the queue?
    Any evidence that there is anything to form a queue for? Or is it the ventilators once again?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    MaxPB said:

    Yes, I think that's a good description, but it is also related to job status. Working and non-working class is different from socioeconomic class.
    To be truly upper middle class you need to have a high income and be a property owner and be a graduate nowadays.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,421

    For a long time I've considered it thus:
    If you have to get out of bed in a morning to work to pay your bills, you're working class
    If other people have to get out of their beds to pay your bills, you're not working class.

    The idea that you can't be a business manager or owner or in a profession and be working class is absurd. We work our arses off, and in an SME you're carrying the weight of all your colleagues' jobs as well as your own. I am certainly...
    I'd argue that small business owners are more working class than corporate professionals.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    edited July 2020

    According to the graph Brown was more popular then than Sunak is now, and every Chancellor in between so of course it wasnt a good slogan at the time. As Sunak may find being a popular Chancellor doesnt automatically make you a popular PM or even one who ever gets there - I suspect his career may be like Ken Clarke's, he is a bit too realistic and honest for the Tory Party leaders role.
    Or David Miliband, if the PM stays on and loses the next general election Sunak could find in opposition the party membership prefers someone purer like Priti Patel much as David lost to his more left-wing brother Ed after the 2010 Labour defeat
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935
    Is one of the reasons the nations still get caught up in class and havent done enough to resolve class issues that we dont agree on what it even means?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,554
    MaxPB said:

    Can someone explain how a duffer like Grayling keeps getting high level positions? The man is a disaster. I fully expect for all national secrets to leak to China.

    He can be expected to do his master’s or mistress’s bidding.

    Also this - https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/06/16/rewards-for-failure/
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935
    HYUFD said:

    Or David Miliband, if the PM stays on and loses the next general election he could find in opposition the party membership prefers someone purer like Priti Patel much as David lost to his more left-wing brother Ed after the 2010 Labour defeat
    I would concur but read purer as "willing to tell people lies if thats what they want to hear"!
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,261
    DavidL said:

    What we need in this country is far more "working class" business owners, people who are aspirational and hope for better for their children. I find the idea that someone is a traitor to their class because they want to get on or have ambitions deeply offensive and immoral. I therefore prefer the second description but I wonder how useful the economic version of your definition is if membership is that transient. Better to focus on gig workers, the unemployed or specific sectors that tell you more about the issues they are facing.
    You don't need to be a business owner to hope for better for your children. The problems come when business owners treat their employees like they're disposable and prevent them from realising their dreams for their children. Aspiration is not binary.
    I don't think it's at all helpful to view people as traitors to their class simply because they have made some money. But equally one might question whether they are still members of that class in the way that many people understand it.
    Although I have always been middle class I have certainly moved from one end of that wide envelope to the other in material terms over the course of my life, so I am certainly no stranger to, or enemy of, aspiration.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,554

    Grayling will not cause Johnson or Cummings problems. That is the sole criteria. See, also, the Cabinet (though they could have miscalculated with Sunak).

    Oh, he’ll cause problems all right. Huge ones. Just not for any people Johnson and Cummings care about.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,211
    .

    For a long time I've considered it thus:
    If you have to get out of bed in a morning to work to pay your bills, you're working class
    If other people have to get out of their beds to pay your bills, you're not working class.

    The idea that you can't be a business manager or owner or in a profession and be working class is absurd. We work our arses off, and in an SME you're carrying the weight of all your colleagues' jobs as well as your own. I am certainly...
    And quite a large proportion of those working class business owners might well be earning less than (for example) an experienced teacher.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278

    The English obsession with class is.... well.... weird.
    Americans are going to vote for the UK Labour Party? Are they importing votes now?
    No Trump did best with skilled working class voters like Boris, not upper middle class voters like previous Tory leaders and Republican nominees
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935
    edited July 2020

    You don't need to be a business owner to hope for better for your children. The problems come when business owners treat their employees like they're disposable and prevent them from realising their dreams for their children. Aspiration is not binary.
    I don't think it's at all helpful to view people as traitors to their class simply because they have made some money. But equally one might question whether they are still members of that class in the way that many people understand it.
    Although I have always been middle class I have certainly moved from one end of that wide envelope to the other in material terms over the course of my life, so I am certainly no stranger to, or enemy of, aspiration.
    But your argument wasnt against bad business owners exploiting workers, it was that you cant be a working class business owner. Take a previously working class brickie who decides to employ five of his mates, they all work the same duties and hours but he happens to be the owner of the firm. On his first day of ownership does he automatically change class? Is he supposed to be aware of this?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,751

    Until relatively recently, the membership of one economic 'class' or another was rather more fixed in stone, no?

    Doesn't this all tie into the 'lost an empire and not yet found a role' argument that has been swirling about the Labour party for, oh, ages. Hence all their ambulance- and trend-chasing since 2010 and probably before then.

    They can win a headline.

    They can't win an election.
    At its worse it is subject statism, by which I mean that the job of you and yours is to accept the largesse that the substantially better paid public sector sees fit to bestow on you and you'd better damn well vote Labour to show your gratitude. Those that aspire to doing better, whether by owning their own house or their own business or just standing on their own feet are spivs, suspect and getting above themselves, not to be trusted.

    In fairness there were always many in Labour who wanted equality of opportunity and welcomed those who took those opportunities. In the days of Momentum, however, these seem a somewhat quieter Blairite (spit) minority and Labour are not better for it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296
    edited July 2020

    Read this article about being working class is by Laura Pidcock and explain how it does not apply to all those featured in the article about Leigh.

    https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/10/its-time-to-talk-about-class
    I like that piece from Pidcock. You are working class if you (or earning partner) have to work for a living. There's more to it of course but that imo is a good start point.

    The cultural aspect is not irrelevant but it's a soft subjective measure and lends itself to much posturing and affectation in all directions.

    So Hyacinth Bucket is working class. Jamie Vardy is not working class.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,521
    HYUFD said:

    To be truly upper middle class you need to have a high income and be a property owner and be a graduate nowadays.
    I probably qualify on that criteria. But I don't recognise "middle class" as anything other than deliberately divisive, so "upper middle" is even dafter
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,157
    On topic. There is no way that Johnson is going anywhere unless the constellations align favourably and the fat fuck has a massive myocardial infarction.

    He absolutely loves the trappings of his office and will never relinquish them willingly. He would never have bothered with the million quid paint job on the Brexit Belle if he weren't in it for the literal and figurative long haul.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,782
    Strong defence of the union from Mark Drakeford, Wales FM, on Sky just now and while I am not impressed by his government, I give him full marks for being so supportive of the union
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    kinabalu said:

    I like that piece from Pidcock. You are working class if you (or earning partner) have to work. There's more to it of course but that imo is a good start point.

    The cultural aspect is not irrelevant but it's a soft subjective measure and lends itself to much posturing and affectation in all directions.

    So Hyacinth Bucket is working class. Jamie Vardy is not working class.
    In voting terms whether you have a degree or not is a far higher predictor of voting intention now than your wealth and earnings, that is a big change from even 2015 when the Tories led with both high earners and graduates.

    Now Labour leads with graduates and the Tories do better with skilled working class C2s than high earners
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935

    I probably qualify on that criteria. But I don't recognise "middle class" as anything other than deliberately divisive, so "upper middle" is even dafter
    Seeing as everyone is adding their individually made up definitions, Id say part of the criteria to be upper middle class is you have to care what class you are in the first place.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,303
    F1: tragic news for those concerned about the Russian Grand Prix - it's going ahead.

    https://twitter.com/LukeSmithF1/status/1281514286804799488
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296

    But your argument wasnt against bad business owners exploiting workers, it was that you cant be a working class business owner. Take a previously working class brickie who decides to employ five of his mates, they all work the same duties and hours but he happens to be the owner of the firm. On his first day of ownership does he automatically change class? Is he supposed to be aware of this?
    Per Pidcock, you leave the working class at the point where you can live off your wealth. So with your example that would not be on the 1st day or anything close to it.

    Usual caveat. Life is not so precise. But it's a helpful thought imo.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,674

    F1: tragic news for those concerned about the Russian Grand Prix - it's going ahead.

    https://twitter.com/LukeSmithF1/status/1281514286804799488

    I'd hope we can get an Asian leg of Singapore, Japan, South Korea, Malaysia and Australia in as well. I'm sure F1 can work out a testing regime and bubble that works for these countries to avoid quarantine measures.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,399
    edited July 2020

    F1: tragic news for those concerned about the Russian Grand Prix - it's going ahead.

    https://twitter.com/LukeSmithF1/status/1281514286804799488

    The Tuscany GP is Ferrari's 1000th grand prix.

    They couldn't call it that so it's at their track instead (mind you Red Bull got 2 races at their track so it's fair).
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,664
    edited July 2020

    Laura's definition of working class has to be framed as it is in order for her to be working class. But that is as close to the Corbynista definition as you will get and it applies to every single person featured in that Leigh piece in the Guardian. The far left is hoisted by its own petard. Again.

    SFAICS Laura's definition of working class includes almost all the middling sort, and if you include those who used to work and are now retired, and those still in education not born to great inherited wealth, almost everyone. Which is fair enough but doesn't explain why she is so rude about Tory voters most of whom belong to her definition of the working class. If Laura could listen carefully to herself, as well as her hard working constituents who rejected her in droves she has the character to have a future in grown up politics.

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,261

    But your argument wasnt against bad business owners exploiting workers, it was that you cant be a working class business owner. Take a previously working class brickie who decides to employ five of his mates, they all work the same duties and hours but he happens to be the owner of the firm. On his first day of ownership does he automatically change class? Is he supposed to be aware of this?
    As I said earlier, there are two uses of the phrase working class, one is economic, one is cultural. From a cultural POV of course there will be no immediate change. From an economic POV there is a change: the business owner has a right to the residual income of the firm. If he pays his mates less for the work he has quoted for, he will receive more. If the business loses work, he has to decide who to let go - and it won't be himself. If one of his mates slacks off, he will have to discipline him. So clearly from an economic POV his relationship with his co-workers has changed: he is their boss. Does that mean he is no longer working class? Partially, yes. Not from a cultural POV, at least initially. But over time, probably that too, especially if the business prospers. My grandparents were born working class but were aspirational and worked hard and died middle class (they read the Telegraph). Their daughter, my mum, is certainly middle class.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,641
    Dura_Ace said:

    On topic. There is no way that Johnson is going anywhere unless the constellations align favourably and the fat fuck has a massive myocardial infarction.

    He absolutely loves the trappings of his office and will never relinquish them willingly. He would never have bothered with the million quid paint job on the Brexit Belle if he weren't in it for the literal and figurative long haul.

    Even if Boris has health problems and is no longer enjoying the job, one imagines he will give it till next year -- summer and Christmas recesses, as well as the (virtual) conference season, give enough time for convalescence. I doubt he understands Brexit but whatever Cummings and Frost can arrange will be flaunted as a Churchillian-scale triumph, even if the fruitcake wing calls it BINO. Anyway, I've backed a 2021 exit to small stakes some months ago and see no reason to change.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,051

    Is one of the reasons the nations still get caught up in class and havent done enough to resolve class issues that we dont agree on what it even means?

    Excellent post..
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,641
    HYUFD said:

    In voting terms whether you have a degree or not is a far higher predictor of voting intention now than your wealth and earnings, that is a big change from even 2015 when the Tories led with both high earners and graduates.

    Now Labour leads with graduates and the Tories do better with skilled working class C2s than high earners
    What are the crosstabs with age? The demographic profile of graduates changed enormously over the past 20 years since Tony Blair effectively raised the school leaving age to 21.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Dura_Ace said:

    On topic. There is no way that Johnson is going anywhere unless the constellations align favourably and the fat fuck has a massive myocardial infarction.

    He absolutely loves the trappings of his office and will never relinquish them willingly. He would never have bothered with the million quid paint job on the Brexit Belle if he weren't in it for the literal and figurative long haul.

    So you're left relying on God himself to remove Boris? Probably a wise decision, since otherwise you'd have to put your faith in the Labour Party!
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited July 2020
    I am starting to be a seller of Sunak for next leader.

    The cracks are appearing in his colossal socialist experiment. The prosecutions for furlough fraud are starting, and reported to be the tip of the iceberg.

    Lower down the thread we see the mind boggling sums spent on PPE and track and don;t trace for what looking more and more like dubious rewards every day.

    His jobs initiatives and green subsides will be the next to come apart at the seams in my book, in the same way as every government initiative on these there ever was has foundered.

    At some juncture he will have to go cap in hand to tory middle England to bankroll these and other socialist follies. A tory middle England that is already paying the highest taxes in fifty years. The push back will be enormous and may well cost Johnson his job. It would be no surprise now if Sunak went with him.

    Sunak's position is worsening by the day.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,056
    Dura_Ace said:

    On topic. There is no way that Johnson is going anywhere unless the constellations align favourably and the fat fuck has a massive myocardial infarction.

    He absolutely loves the trappings of his office and will never relinquish them willingly. He would never have bothered with the million quid paint job on the Brexit Belle if he weren't in it for the literal and figurative long haul.

    So we have an immovable object (Johnson's vanity and the moth-to-a-flame attraction of the job) and an increasingly irresistible force (he's not actually very good at key parts of the job, and outsourcing the thinking to Gove and Cummings in the Cabinet Office only gets you so far)

    And in that situation, you get stasis for quite a while, followed by sudden catastrophic failure. Good luck, everyone.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935
    kinabalu said:

    Per Pidcock, you leave the working class at the point where you can live off your wealth. So with your example that would not be on the 1st day or anything close to it.

    Usual caveat. Life is not so precise. But it's a helpful thought imo.
    But its nonsense! So on retirement everyone stops being working class?

    In this country its also perfectly possible to live off state benefits without ever doing a days work. Not fun or recommended, but do-able. So at birth we are all excluded from being working class.

    On a personal level I could certainly retire early today and survive, just not at the level I would like to so will probably end up working another 15 years or so. Which level sets my class, my desired income, historic income or average income, or state sustenance?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,674
    kinabalu said:

    Per Pidcock, you leave the working class at the point where you can live off your wealth. So with your example that would not be on the 1st day or anything close to it.

    Usual caveat. Life is not so precise. But it's a helpful thought imo.
    Under her definition, I'm still working class, then Kinabalu. That doesn't ring true, I own a flat in Hampstead and work for an international bank in investment markets. I'm the very definition of comfortable middle class.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,751

    Hasn't Dundee always been a pretty terrible place to live, with overcrowded housing, poor working conditions and a severe alcohol problem dating right back to the days of the Jute Barrons? (I hope you won't see this as me denigrating the people of Dundee, who have put up with an awful lot over the years with grace and humour). Seems to me that Dundee was a victim of a particularly brutal and exploitative form of capitalism during the nineteenth century, and has never really recovered. Perhaps a lot like towns in the North of England in that regard.
    There is no question that the working conditions in the Jute mills were brutal, even by the standard of 19th Century capitalism. I absolutely love this song:
    https://sangstories.webs.com/ohdearme.htm

    I also remember as a kid visiting relatives who lived in tenements with outside "toilets" (no more than a hole really) built into the back staircase of the block. It was grim.

    But there was a time in my life when the Timex, NCR, Michelin, DC Thomson, James Keiller and the docks provided a lot of reasonably well paid work in the town bringing money into the shops and creating something of a buzz. Now we seem to have some very well to do, mainly connected with the University and a pretty much unemployable underclass scraping a living from gig work. The middle has been hollowed out.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,470
    MaxPB said:

    Under her definition, I'm still working class, then Kinabalu. That doesn't ring true, I own a flat in Hampstead and work for an international bank in investment markets. I'm the very definition of comfortable middle class.
    Interestingly ,she is using the oldest definition of the middle class - people who don't need to work, or work in certain rarified professions. Law was one.

    The modern revival of this is an attempt to reach out to the "modern middle class". Who are mostly employees, and join them in common cause with the blue collar workers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,211
    Huawei receives go-ahead for $1.2bn UK research center
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-receives-go-ahead-for-1.2bn-UK-research-center
    LONDON (Reuters) -- China's Huawei Technologies said on Thursday it had received planning permission for a 1 billion pound ($1.2 billion) research and development facility in England.

    The new centre will employee around 400 people and focus on producing optical equipment used in fibre-optic communication systems, Huawei said in a statement.

    The development is likely to anger officials in the United States and some British lawmakers who say Huawei's equipment can be used by Beijing for spying and that Britain should reconsider a January decision to allow it a limited role in its 5G networks. The company denies the charges.

    British officials are in the process of reviewing how to best mitigate any security risks posed by Huawei in light of new U.S. sanctions announced in May, which aim to cut off the firm's supply of the advanced microchips needed to make its equipment. A decision is expected in the coming weeks.

    Huawei Vice President Victor Zhang said the technology developed at the new centre was separate from that targeted by the U.S. restrictions, and it was "simply wrong" to suggest its announcement was timed to influence Britain's decision...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    There are some real odd prices in the Tory Next Leader market.

    Why is Tugendhat so low? Why is Ruth Davidson sub 1000?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,470

    But its nonsense! So on retirement everyone stops being working class?

    In this country its also perfectly possible to live off state benefits without ever doing a days work. Not fun or recommended, but do-able. So at birth we are all excluded from being working class.

    On a personal level I could certainly retire early today and survive, just not at the level I would like to so will probably end up working another 15 years or so. Which level sets my class, my desired income, historic income or average income, or state sustenance?
    That was how pensions were talked of at the very beginning - save up, work hard and retire to a sort-of-middle-class lifestyle. The not working bit, anyway.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,303
    Mr. Max, not sure that'll happen, but we'll see.

    Mr. Eek, ah, that's a nice anniversary for them.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,521
    kinabalu said:

    I like that piece from Pidcock. You are working class if you (or earning partner) have to work for a living. There's more to it of course but that imo is a good start point.

    The cultural aspect is not irrelevant but it's a soft subjective measure and lends itself to much posturing and affectation in all directions.

    So Hyacinth Bucket is working class. Jamie Vardy is not working class.
    The problem with Pillock is that she she's everything as class based, "the single most important aspect of a person’s life" which is rampant nonsense. She is right that many comfortably off people won't be if their income ceases and they can't replace it, but that isn't class based.

    She concludes "For years, it was unfashionable, but in an economy like ours, it makes more and more sense. I am happy that the Labour Party, too, now foregrounds class politics and that we will go into a general election to speak for our class — working-class people, the majority of people."

    Tell normals like in Leigh that they are working class and that is "about focusing on the collective power we have, and on solidarity" and they'll tell you to do one. And rightly so. Unless Starmer can bad aside that kind of language Labour are really going to lose their ability to speak to these voters in these places.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,267
    kinabalu said:

    I like that piece from Pidcock. You are working class if you (or earning partner) have to work for a living. There's more to it of course but that imo is a good start point.

    The cultural aspect is not irrelevant but it's a soft subjective measure and lends itself to much posturing and affectation in all directions.

    So Hyacinth Bucket is working class. Jamie Vardy is not working class.
    I disagree with that.

    For me, class is not defined by wealth. Beckham, for instance, will always be working class regardless of his riches. (I don`t see working class as in any way a derogatory term by the way.)

    I don`t believe you can change your class. But I do believe that a child can be a different class to the parents. I`d say I`m working class (lower middle if you like) but my children are middle class (upper middle if you like).
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,737

    Now is the right time for businesses to make tough decisions on rightsizing.
    There is something in that.

    "Zombie Businesses" (ie just existing not growing) have been repeatedly pointed out as a problem since the financial crash.

    This will shake out a lot of zombies.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    edited July 2020

    Sunak's statement yesterday was interesting. He has seen the storm clouds brewing and he knows the rain will be brown as well as wet. Those on PB still confident of another Tory landslide in 2024 don't understand this yet.
    Yes indeed. At the moment Sunak has everything going for him. A Tory chancellor who magics money out of nowhere such that most people still have money in their pocket and are grateful for that.

    Three years on it's going to be very different. He's going to be vulnerable:

    1. The public purse will be empty.

    2. Too many businesses will have gone bust and jobs will have been lost because the Covid recovery money wasn't properly targeted.

    3 Add to that the charge that too much of the money was true to form wasted rewarding the Tories friends. Second home subsidies, stamp duty cuts etc.

    4. There'll be a reaction against wasting money on Johnson's vanity investment projects rather than addressing real needs.

    5. An era of low Interest rates may well be coming to an end, hitting highly indebted household budgets.

    6. Austerity and public sector retrenchment will be rearing its head yet again. No scope for tax cuts. The economic cycle will be out of synch with the optimal political cycle.

    Sunak won't be the new fresh faced kid on the block. He'll be the person held responsible for all that.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,674
    edited July 2020
    Alistair said:

    There are some real odd prices in the Tory Next Leader market.

    Why is Tugendhat so low? Why is Ruth Davidson sub 1000?

    Name recognition. Also there is a (maybe mistaken) belief that Boris isn't in it for the long haul which means established MPs will have a better shot as they will become PM as well as leader.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Is one of the reasons the nations still get caught up in class and havent done enough to resolve class issues that we dont agree on what it even means?

    The obscurantism, tendentiousness, and lack of agreed definitions that surround the topic seem to suit all sides in society, and so they'll probably continue indefinitely.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,051

    The problem with Pillock is that she she's everything as class based, "the single most important aspect of a person’s life" which is rampant nonsense. She is right that many comfortably off people won't be if their income ceases and they can't replace it, but that isn't class based.

    She concludes "For years, it was unfashionable, but in an economy like ours, it makes more and more sense. I am happy that the Labour Party, too, now foregrounds class politics and that we will go into a general election to speak for our class — working-class people, the majority of people."

    Tell normals like in Leigh that they are working class and that is "about focusing on the collective power we have, and on solidarity" and they'll tell you to do one. And rightly so. Unless Starmer can bad aside that kind of language Labour are really going to lose their ability to speak to these voters in these places.
    Political activists are obsessed by such labels and act as though people care about them way more than they do. It then is a short step from that to infantilising those people of that class who dont agree and assume or even say they only do so as they are stupid or tricked
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,674
    Nigelb said:

    Huawei receives go-ahead for $1.2bn UK research center
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-receives-go-ahead-for-1.2bn-UK-research-center
    LONDON (Reuters) -- China's Huawei Technologies said on Thursday it had received planning permission for a 1 billion pound ($1.2 billion) research and development facility in England.

    The new centre will employee around 400 people and focus on producing optical equipment used in fibre-optic communication systems, Huawei said in a statement.

    The development is likely to anger officials in the United States and some British lawmakers who say Huawei's equipment can be used by Beijing for spying and that Britain should reconsider a January decision to allow it a limited role in its 5G networks. The company denies the charges.

    British officials are in the process of reviewing how to best mitigate any security risks posed by Huawei in light of new U.S. sanctions announced in May, which aim to cut off the firm's supply of the advanced microchips needed to make its equipment. A decision is expected in the coming weeks.

    Huawei Vice President Victor Zhang said the technology developed at the new centre was separate from that targeted by the U.S. restrictions, and it was "simply wrong" to suggest its announcement was timed to influence Britain's decision...

    That's such an odd decision. I'm amazed (and not) that the government hasn't blocked it on national security grounds.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,051

    Yes indeed. At the moment Sunak has everything going for him. A Tory chancellor who magics money out of nowhere such that most people still have money in their pocket and are grateful for that.

    Three years on it's going to be very different. He's going to be vulnerable:

    1. The public purse will be empty.

    2. Too many businesses will have gone bust and jobs will have been lost because the Covid recovery money wasn't properly targeted.

    3 Add to that the charge that too much of the money was true to form wasted rewarding the Tories friends. Second home subsidies, stamp duty cuts etc.

    4. There'll be a reaction against wasting money on Johnson's vanity investment projects rather than addressing real needs.

    5. An era of low Interest rates may well be coming to an end, hitting highly indebted household budgets.

    6. Austerity and public sector retrenchment will be rearing its head yet again. No scope for tax cuts. The economic cycle will be out of synch with the optimal political cycle.

    Sunak won't be the new fresh faced kid on the block. He'll be the person held responsible for all that.

    He'll be fine if hes still handsome!
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,267
    edited July 2020
    Alistair said:

    There are some real odd prices in the Tory Next Leader market.

    Why is Tugendhat so low? Why is Ruth Davidson sub 1000?

    Though I rate Sunak, I think he`s a lay at current prices. As are Gove and Raab.

    Hunt`s odds are attractive in my view. And I wouldn`t count Patel out of it.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,641
    Scott_xP said:
    The BBC 2 hour drama on Mrs Thatcher's downfall, Margaret, starring Lindsay Duncan, is good. The BBC sold the DVD in a box set with The Long Walk to Finchley. The version uploaded to Youtube is at such low resolution as to be unwatchable.

    In the podcast, Howard blames Peter Morrison but Sir Malcolm Rifkind also ran her campaign. Really, these were extraordinarily poor choices. One was a known boozer (at best) and the other was spending most of his time in Edinburgh trying to save a bank. Perhaps yet another sign Mrs Thatcher's famed intellect was in decline.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296
    HYUFD said:

    In voting terms whether you have a degree or not is a far higher predictor of voting intention now than your wealth and earnings, that is a big change from even 2015 when the Tories led with both high earners and graduates.

    Now Labour leads with graduates and the Tories do better with skilled working class C2s than high earners
    Yes. Perhaps this is why the Tories are keen to reduce the numbers going to uni?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,712
    HYUFD said:

    In voting terms whether you have a degree or not is a far higher predictor of voting intention now than your wealth and earnings, that is a big change from even 2015 when the Tories led with both high earners and graduates.

    Now Labour leads with graduates and the Tories do better with skilled working class C2s than high earners
    I'm not persuaded that the complex history of class relationships can be summarised by voting patterns over a 5-year period.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,051
    Stocky said:

    I disagree with that.

    For me, class is not defined by wealth. Beckham, for instance, will always be working class regardless of his riches. (I don`t see working class as in any way a derogatory term by the way.)

    I don`t believe you can change your class. But I do believe that a child can be a different class to the parents. I`d say I`m working class (lower middle if you like) but my children are middle class (upper middle if you like).
    If you cannot change your class its defined entirely by your upbringing presumably, but theres just too much variety in that even among those if the same wealth level to make it useful in my view
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,051
    People cannot even consistently agree on what left and right wing mean, theres no hope of agreeing the 3 or 7 or whatever classes we now have.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,737
    edited July 2020
    Reading that Guardian piece, I am interested in the differential impact on very small businesses of the Govt schemes for North vs South.

    A small business I am invested in operates out of a decent size premises (7000 sqft) with a rates bill of around 10k a year. That will create about 10 jobs over a few years by direct employment of subletting.

    With the 25k grant, and 2 x years off business rates, that is a significant sum (for us) of around 40-50k in total.

    If I look at a similar business in say St Albans or Brighton, that amount of money will be less significant.

    How much more significant will that be for Leigh vs say Islington North? Is that a built-in relatively greater impact for the Red Wall?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,157
    edited July 2020

    -

    Sunak's position is worsening by the day.

    Sunak is never going to be leader. He is a pencil necked geek who has zero appeal to the slope-browed gravy and chips gobblers upon whom the tories now rely. He's never even been sucked off by a pneumatic blonde like Arcuri for fuck's sake.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,399
    edited July 2020
    MaxPB said:

    I'd hope we can get an Asian leg of Singapore, Japan, South Korea, Malaysia and Australia in as well. I'm sure F1 can work out a testing regime and bubble that works for these countries to avoid quarantine measures.
    Singapore is already cancelled as it can only be one weekend and that is no longer possible. Japan and China have both ruled out races which really only leaves Vietnam who appear to still want it. Canada and the Americas have equally disappeared (Canada because it's now too late to host it, US, Mexico and Brazil more because F1 won't be allowed to return if they go there).

    So after that it's Portugal as it will still have decent weather then Vietnam (possibly) Bahrain and then Abu Dhabi.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,267
    kle4 said:

    If you cannot change your class its defined entirely by your upbringing presumably, but theres just too much variety in that even among those if the same wealth level to make it useful in my view
    I agree. I don`t find class useful.

    Pidcock looks through a Marxist lens, of course. If you are merely separating the plebs from the bourgeoisie, those who work and those who own capital, that`s pretty unhelpful. Doesn`t get you far given the proportions of the population which fit each category.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,267
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sunak is never going to be leader. He is a pencil necked geek who has zero appeal to the slope-browed gravy and chips gobblers upon whom the tories now rely. He's never even been sucked off by an pneumatic blonde like Arcuri for fuck's sake.
    Marvellous post. Keep them coming.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,399
    edited July 2020
    MattW said:

    Reading that Guardian piece, I am interested in the differential impact on very small businesses of the Govt schemes for North vs South.

    A small business I am invested in operates out of a decent size premises (7000 sqft) with a rates bill of around 10k a year. That will create about 10 jobs over a few years by direct employment of subletting.

    With the 25k grant, and 2 x years off business rates, plus a bit of furlough, that is a significant sum (for us) of around 50k in total.

    If I look at a similar business in say St Albans or Brighton, that amount of money will be less significant.

    How much more significant will that be for Leigh vs say Islington North?

    I'm still trying to sort out my £50k bounce back loan - as soon as I do we are employing (another) sales man and bringing in two apprentices to ramp up our support offerings..
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935
    kle4 said:

    People cannot even consistently agree on what left and right wing mean, theres no hope of agreeing the 3 or 7 or whatever classes we now have.

    I would like to see the ONS take a lead on this. Create some new measures with distinct and clearly definited terms, not using the word "class" at all, one based on background and education, another on wealth, another on employment status. Standardise and promote awareness of them so this discussion isnt repeated with chaotic personal definitions of class in 20 years time.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Another £1 million pound job won. We normally turnover £8 million p.a. and we have a £9 million order book, all picked up in the last 2 months. And the tenders are still rolling in.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Sunak is never going to be leader. He is a pencil necked geek who has zero appeal to the slope-browed gravy and chips gobblers upon whom the tories now rely. He's never even been sucked off by a pneumatic blonde like Arcuri for fuck's sake.
    Do we know that for sure?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    Dura_Ace said:

    He's never even been sucked off by a pneumatic blonde like Arcuri for fuck's sake.

    We don't know that.

    We know only that he hasn't tried to get her a bung from work. Yet.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,261
    Stocky said:

    I disagree with that.

    For me, class is not defined by wealth. Beckham, for instance, will always be working class regardless of his riches. (I don`t see working class as in any way a derogatory term by the way.)

    I don`t believe you can change your class. But I do believe that a child can be a different class to the parents. I`d say I`m working class (lower middle if you like) but my children are middle class (upper middle if you like).
    I disagree that you can't change class - I have previously offered the example of my grandparents who I think clearly moved from the class of their birth (respectable working class) to their death (firmly middle class). Personally I think the obsession with cultural class markers is a bit tedious, in both directions (the Hyacinth Bucket and the Prolier than thou versions).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296

    A few points:
    1. I do keep pointing out that I am irrelevant. I do not make any claim to others being as mad as me to end up in a similar place, but as I keep being the topic of conversation...
    2. The party were right to reject my lunatic attempt to rejoin for the wrong reasons. But that wasn't the CLP - I had the EC on board with voting in my favour. One of the "lets shout at Labour voters on the doorstep, vote Labour" types nobbled me at national level - the GC has absolute power to reject anyone they see fit for any reason. And she did, which is (was) entirely her right. My friends in the CLP were appalled :)
    3. I had a mental crisis. I'd been part of something my entire adult life. I walked away and was comfortable having joined the LDs. Then a combination of being caged up at home, dealing with a pain in the bum Electoral Commission return and an increasingly acute need to Stop the absolute Hell that my existence has turned into pushed me over the edge. Starmer got elected, didn't impress me that much but was Not Corbyn, and my friends in Labour implored me to "come home". So a quick call to the CLP chair and I pulled the trigger. Madness.
    4. I am not a socialist. Not any more. When you're in something, or you're trying to justify something to yourself you can find yourself saying stuff because you're supposed to rather than because you wisely should do. I'm not sure what that Damascean conversion you mention is. I want Starmer to succeed - we need to purge lunatics of all colours from politics. The LibDems couldn't work with Corbyn, but could work with Starmer.

    Again, I'm irrelevant to what is going on out there. You good people have been a safe space for me to express myself during this rather interesting period in my political life, and I thank you all for it. But less about me would probably be a Good Thing!
    Hats off for eloquent frankness. And to stress a positive, it should be an esteem boost to be considered of sufficient note as to be the subject of those sort of machinations. I'm a Labour member but am considered of no great import whatsoever. Last meeting I went to I tried to give them all a rundown of the betting angle on next Labour leader and it went down like a lead balloon.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Stocky said:

    I agree. I don`t find class useful.

    Pidcock looks through a Marxist lens, of course. If you are merely separating the plebs from the bourgeoisie, those who work and those who own capital, that`s pretty unhelpful. Doesn`t get you far given the proportions of the population which fit each category.
    I think it's substantially more useful, because those different groups have different material interests. Whereas you'd group together Beckham and the people he pays to clean his house.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    edited July 2020

    I am starting to be a seller of Sunak for next leader.

    The cracks are appearing in his colossal socialist experiment. The prosecutions for furlough fraud are starting, and reported to be the tip of the iceberg.

    Lower down the thread we see the mind boggling sums spent on PPE and track and don;t trace for what looking more and more like dubious rewards every day.

    His jobs initiatives and green subsides will be the next to come apart at the seams in my book, in the same way as every government initiative on these there ever was has foundered.

    At some juncture he will have to go cap in hand to tory middle England to bankroll these and other socialist follies. A tory middle England that is already paying the highest taxes in fifty years. The push back will be enormous and may well cost Johnson his job. It would be no surprise now if Sunak went with him.

    Sunak's position is worsening by the day.

    Boris will not increase taxes he will borrow to fund increased spending, Starmer however would raise taxes on middle England
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,261

    I would like to see the ONS take a lead on this. Create some new measures with distinct and clearly definited terms, not using the word "class" at all, one based on background and education, another on wealth, another on employment status. Standardise and promote awareness of them so this discussion isnt repeated with chaotic personal definitions of class in 20 years time.
    I believe there are now seven social classes. You can even find out which one you are part of here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973

    I am a member of the Elite group, much to my dismay...
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935

    I think it's substantially more useful, because those different groups have different material interests. Whereas you'd group together Beckham and the people he pays to clean his house.
    Cleaners are amongst the most common business owners!
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,069
    HYUFD said:

    Boris will not increase taxes he will borrow to fund increased spending, Starmer however would raise taxes on middle England
    How will Boris pay for that increased borrowing?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Stocky said:

    Though I rate Sunak, I think he`s a lay at current prices. As are Gove and Raab.

    Hunt`s odds are attractive in my view. And I wouldn`t count Patel out of it.
    I have laid Sunak, I was conidering a back for Gove, I can see a scenario where they give-Cummings decide Boris is a liability and feel they have to step in directly
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935

    I believe there are now seven social classes. You can even find out which one you are part of here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973

    I am a member of the Elite group, much to my dismay...
    I am established middle class which is probably about right. But that is just yet another definition - it is not backed by the govt or ONS nor is it widely used.

    My argument is that because we are all wedded to our own preferred and as this thread shows completely different definitions of class, its time to create alternative measures that are clear, specific and dont use the word class at all. It then needs to be promoted over a number of years by govt and ONS.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,399

    Cleaners are amongst the most common business owners!
    Because they wish to be self employed or because their employer prefers it that way?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,976
    HYUFD said:

    Boris will not increase taxes he will borrow to fund increased spending, Starmer however would raise taxes on middle England
    It is not Sunak's fault that people defrauded the system./
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,432

    Another £1 million pound job won. We normally turnover £8 million p.a. and we have a £9 million order book, all picked up in the last 2 months. And the tenders are still rolling in.

    Are you a liquidator specialising in retail and hospitality?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,674
    Alistair said:

    I have laid Sunak, I was conidering a back for Gove, I can see a scenario where they give-Cummings decide Boris is a liability and feel they have to step in directly
    That only works without MPs, Gove and Dom have too many enemies within the party to get anywhere near the final two.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,051
    Alistair said:

    I have laid Sunak, I was conidering a back for Gove, I can see a scenario where they give-Cummings decide Boris is a liability and feel they have to step in directly
    Emergent service worker. Avg age 34 which is near dead on.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935
    eek said:

    Because they wish to be self employed or because their employer prefers it that way?
    Id imagine its mostly because many buyers of cleaning services dont have enough cleaning to justify a full time cleaner, and its a business you can set up without significant capital and build up your clients quickly through quality service and word of mouth.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,432
    I think the sweet spot is 2021 Sept conference for the end of BoZo. 12.5 now on Bfx, though I got a fiver on at 21 earlier this week.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296

    But its nonsense! So on retirement everyone stops being working class?

    In this country its also perfectly possible to live off state benefits without ever doing a days work. Not fun or recommended, but do-able. So at birth we are all excluded from being working class.

    On a personal level I could certainly retire early today and survive, just not at the level I would like to so will probably end up working another 15 years or so. Which level sets my class, my desired income, historic income or average income, or state sustenance?
    I can answer these questions on Laura's behalf. On retirement you carry on being what you were before you retired. Being jobless on benefits does not count as living off your wealth because it is not living comfortably. Which means - let's put this out there - that your capital needs to be sufficient to generate an income of at least the average wage without any labour input from you. If you're in that boat you can only be "cultural" working class - which is the softer, subjective and imo less useful concept (albeit not irrelevant).
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,056
    eristdoof said:

    How will Boris pay for that increased borrowing?
    Easy. Boris won't, because he won't be round when the bills come in.

    But he's got to do things that make him feel good, and that's the main thing.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935
    Foxy said:

    Are you a liquidator specialising in retail and hospitality?
    I was thinking painter of aircraft?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,004
    Don't want to sound cruel but this lady's lover doesn't really look like a Rothschild.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8508029/Middle-class-mother-living-Cotswolds-idyll-seduced-fraud-claimed-Rothschild.html
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    edited July 2020
    Foxy said:

    Are you a liquidator specialising in retail and hospitality?
    A M & E Contractor
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,432
    edited July 2020

    It is not Sunak's fault that people defrauded the system./
    I think furlough has been quite widely abused. My spouse employing colleagues in the private sector are raking it in. Presumably true of a lot of small businesses. Not criminally, but not really its intention. I wonder if any MPs have done this.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935
    kinabalu said:

    I can answer these questions on Laura's behalf. On retirement you carry on being what you were before you retired. Being jobless on benefits does not count as living off your wealth because it is not living comfortably. Which means - let's put this out there - that your capital needs to be sufficient to generate an income of at least the average wage without any labour input from you. If you're in that boat you can only be "cultural" working class - which is the softer, subjective and imo less useful concept (albeit not irrelevant).
    How do I know how long Im going to live? If its 75 Im excluded from working class on your definition, if l lived to 95 I would be eligible. This is silly.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    HYUFD said:

    Boris will not increase taxes he will borrow to fund increased spending, Starmer however would raise taxes on middle England
    I liked that poll you posted on defunding the police in New York State. Paints a different picture to some of the US polling we have seen.

    can Trump hang defund around Biden's neck? that has to be his strategy.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296
    edited July 2020
    Stocky said:

    I disagree with that.

    For me, class is not defined by wealth. Beckham, for instance, will always be working class regardless of his riches. (I don`t see working class as in any way a derogatory term by the way.)

    I don`t believe you can change your class. But I do believe that a child can be a different class to the parents. I`d say I`m working class (lower middle if you like) but my children are middle class (upper middle if you like).
    That's too divorced from the hard realities of power and money and "capital vs labour" for me. But question for you -

    When you say a child can be a different class to their parents you picture that one way only - child moving up - am I right?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sunak is never going to be leader. He is a pencil necked geek who has zero appeal to the slope-browed gravy and chips gobblers upon whom the tories now rely. He's never even been sucked off by a pneumatic blonde like Arcuri for fuck's sake.
    True but now he has enormous power the queue of pneumatic blondes must be lengthening. They are very pragmatic bunch.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935

    How do I know how long Im going to live? If its 75 Im excluded from working class on your definition, if l lived to 95 I would be eligible. This is silly.
    I would also point out that only a very small percentage of people understand enough about personal finance to be able to determine their class on this definition. What use is a definition of class that has an arbitrary tipping point that ordinary people will reach at some point later in working life but not realise they have done so? None.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,267
    edited July 2020

    I think it's substantially more useful, because those different groups have different material interests. Whereas you'd group together Beckham and the people he pays to clean his house.
    Yes I would. And Hyacinth Bucket.

    It may be useful to group people in terms of wealth, I agree, but then (I`d argue) we are not talking about class.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,505

    I am established middle class which is probably about right. But that is just yet another definition - it is not backed by the govt or ONS nor is it widely used.

    My argument is that because we are all wedded to our own preferred and as this thread shows completely different definitions of class, its time to create alternative measures that are clear, specific and dont use the word class at all. It then needs to be promoted over a number of years by govt and ONS.
    Is that the one from a few years ago, where some Professor from the established middle class created a new system with an idea to ease class stigma - then gave such a horrendously snobbish write up for the Technical Middle Classes (not cultured, don't do anything I'm interested in etc.) that he basically destroyed his ideals at a stroke.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,432
    kinabalu said:

    I can answer these questions on Laura's behalf. On retirement you carry on being what you were before you retired. Being jobless on benefits does not count as living off your wealth because it is not living comfortably. Which means - let's put this out there - that your capital needs to be sufficient to generate an income of at least the average wage without any labour input from you. If you're in that boat you can only be "cultural" working class - which is the softer, subjective and imo less useful concept (albeit not irrelevant).
    Perhaps it is my youth in the less class obsessed USA, but I find these odd distinctions. It is perfectly possible to be both blue collar and middle class there.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,267
    kinabalu said:

    That's too divorced from the hard realities of power and money and "capital vs labour" for me. But question for you -

    When you say a child can be a different class to their parents you picture that one way only - child moving up - am I right?
    No, it could go either way.
This discussion has been closed.