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SystemSystem Posts: 12,627
edited June 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Time for the PB Nighthawks Cafe – the place for late night political conversation

For me th big US development has been the growing opposition from senior figures in the military to Trump’s approach to dealing with the demos following the police murder on an unarmed black man in Minnesota.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,273
    FIRST
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,629
    Headline of the year so far:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52920291
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,258
    Will things really change in the USA as a result of all this? Perhaps I'm cynical but why is it different to any other time it has happened? Trump, to be sure, is an unpredictable factor to throw into the mix, but even so.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,810
    Is this the conga line to vote?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,891
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    nico67 said:

    So the UK is set to sell out farmers .

    Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.

    Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !

    So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?

    Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.

    The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.

    Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.

    I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
    You won’t be able to make that choice because the US will insist that food cannot be labelled so as to allow consumers to know where their meat, for instance, comes from.
    I am finding this argument very amusing because clearly no one has actually gone and looked at US law.

    Under the "Farm Security and Rural Investment Act of 2002" almost all fresh produce - including chicken - must carry a Mandatory Country of Origin label. This has been reaffirmed by several amendments to the acts - the most recent in 2016.

    The really funny bit is that it was Canada who took the US to the WTO to claim that the mCOOL laws were counter to free trade and should be outlawed. The Canadians won as far as Beef and Pork are concerned but the list of foodstuffs that have to carry the mCOOL under US Federal law currently includes fresh fruits, raw vegetables, fish, shellfish, muscle cuts and ground lamb, chicken, goat, peanuts, pecans, ginseng, and macadamia nuts.

    So no, the US will not be insisting that there cannot be Country of Origin labels. In fact their own laws make it mandatory.

    FPT: In the UNITED STATES. Not overseas.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,258
    alednam said:

    On Parliament. The PM lent his support to shielded MOs being able to vote remotely. He did not support returning to the hybrid Parliament, which (a) the Speaker certainly supports, and (b) the YouGov survey may have been taken to be about.
    For the time being, the vast majority of MPs should be able to work from home -- as has been show to be possible and workable.

    There should have been no rush to halfway house operations when workable contingency operations were already in place.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,273
    The chief executive of the Premier League has revealed that calls by the fiancee of Jamal Khashoggi for it to stop the planned Saudi Arabia-backed takeover of Newcastle United “are being fully considered”.

    In a letter seen by Telegraph Sport, Richard Masters told Hatice Cengiz’s lawyer he was “extremely sympathetic to your client’s position” after Rodney Dixon QC twice wrote to him on her behalf urging him to block the proposed £300 million deal.

    It is the first time the Premier League has acknowledged it is examining allegations of murder and human rights abuses as part of the owners’ and directors’ test being conducted over the Newcastle takeover. Masters did, however, refuse to meet Cengiz after Dixon had requested he do so “as soon as possible”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/06/04/exclusive-premier-league-fully-considering-calls-stop-newcastles/
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,807
    Remember the atrocity just before the current atrocity?

    https://twitter.com/cnnbrk/status/1268650861070344193
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,258
    I see on the BBC the president of Brazil is quoted as saying 'death was the destiny of everyone'. Who says politicians don't know how to calm a situation with their words. I mean, it is true, but boy that's a direct statement.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    FPT
    Big_G_NorthWales said:


    ' Maybe but as has been said do not underestimate Boris ability to win over normal voters

    Boris has lost me, but I think many on here see Starmer as a messiah and he is far from that, though he is a huge relief from the toxic days of Corbyn'

    The fact that he has lost you as a Tory loyalist must make it highly likely that many other less Tory-inclined voters will have seen the scales fall from their eyes.I suspect that many of the firsttime Tory voters from last December already feel pretty disillusioned with Johnson - and the factors which attracted them to him - Brexit and Corbyn - have ceased to be relevant.
    The poll leads we were seeing two months ago were always artificial and were never going to last. The vote shares we are now being presented with are much more realistic with some return to normal politics having been accelerated by recent perceptions of Government mismanagement. On the basis of earlier Parliaments,however, there must be a strong possibility - particularly given the economic storms which lie ahead - that the polls are continuing to flatter the Tories relative to their likely performance in 2024. When we look back to other big election victories from 2001 - 1997 - 1987 - 1966 - and 1959, the ruling party was doing a fair bit better six months into those Parliaments than it was able to sustain at the subsequent General Election several years later
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,231
    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,512
    Carnyx said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    nico67 said:

    So the UK is set to sell out farmers .

    Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.

    Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !

    So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?

    Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.

    The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.

    Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.

    I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
    You won’t be able to make that choice because the US will insist that food cannot be labelled so as to allow consumers to know where their meat, for instance, comes from.
    I am finding this argument very amusing because clearly no one has actually gone and looked at US law.

    Under the "Farm Security and Rural Investment Act of 2002" almost all fresh produce - including chicken - must carry a Mandatory Country of Origin label. This has been reaffirmed by several amendments to the acts - the most recent in 2016.

    The really funny bit is that it was Canada who took the US to the WTO to claim that the mCOOL laws were counter to free trade and should be outlawed. The Canadians won as far as Beef and Pork are concerned but the list of foodstuffs that have to carry the mCOOL under US Federal law currently includes fresh fruits, raw vegetables, fish, shellfish, muscle cuts and ground lamb, chicken, goat, peanuts, pecans, ginseng, and macadamia nuts.

    So no, the US will not be insisting that there cannot be Country of Origin labels. In fact their own laws make it mandatory.

    FPT: In the UNITED STATES. Not overseas.
    There is a principle of reciprocation in FTAs. If the US have COOL laws then any country with an FTA with them can have the same.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,240
    FTP
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    This is an interesting take on the 'woke' vs 'liberal' culture wars we've touched on from time to time:

    https://twitter.com/bariweiss/status/1268628680797978625

    I can't see this as anything particularly new. I can remember heated SU debates between the free-speech brigade and the do-not-offend brigade thirty years ago. The latter faction were generally more victorious in terms of motions carried etc.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,258
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The chief executive of the Premier League has revealed that calls by the fiancee of Jamal Khashoggi for it to stop the planned Saudi Arabia-backed takeover of Newcastle United “are being fully considered”.

    In a letter seen by Telegraph Sport, Richard Masters told Hatice Cengiz’s lawyer he was “extremely sympathetic to your client’s position” after Rodney Dixon QC twice wrote to him on her behalf urging him to block the proposed £300 million deal.

    It is the first time the Premier League has acknowledged it is examining allegations of murder and human rights abuses as part of the owners’ and directors’ test being conducted over the Newcastle takeover. Masters did, however, refuse to meet Cengiz after Dixon had requested he do so “as soon as possible”.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/06/04/exclusive-premier-league-fully-considering-calls-stop-newcastles/

    I cannot imagine an examination would take that long.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    kle4 said:

    Will things really change in the USA as a result of all this? Perhaps I'm cynical but why is it different to any other time it has happened? Trump, to be sure, is an unpredictable factor to throw into the mix, but even so.

    The effect of all these unarmed black deaths is cumulative, and the pace of publicized incidents will probably increase with the ubiquity of cell phone video. Black people's behaviour is changing, so that they routinely record all encounters with the police.

    To me it really does feel like an 'enough is enough' time. That does not mean that everything will be resolved perfectly in a few weeks or months, but I do think that the pressure for systemic change to how policing is done will be relentless until things improve markedly.

    Of course, I could be wrong.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,258
    Entirely appropos of nothing, but do footballers in Spain have an addition to fiddling their tax arrangements, or are the authorities there the only ones in Europe who care about footballers fiddling their tax arrangements? It seems to come up a lot.

    Atletico Madrid forward Diego Costa has avoided a six-month prison term - but will have to pay a fine of €543,208 (£485,324) for tax fraud.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52920608
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,807
    Stark_Dawning said:

    FTP

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    This is an interesting take on the 'woke' vs 'liberal' culture wars we've touched on from time to time:

    https://twitter.com/bariweiss/status/1268628680797978625

    I can't see this as anything particularly new. I can remember heated SU debates between the free-speech brigade and the do-not-offend brigade thirty years ago. The latter faction were generally more victorious in terms of motions carried etc.
    They published an op-ed by a guy advocating the use of lethal military force against protesters. This isn’t a woke/liberal thing. I’m a 40 something liberal and they should not have published it. No one who considers themselves a liberal should have published it. Editorial standards are not the same thing as censorship.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,609
    Stark_Dawning said:

    FTP

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    This is an interesting take on the 'woke' vs 'liberal' culture wars we've touched on from time to time:

    https://twitter.com/bariweiss/status/1268628680797978625

    I can't see this as anything particularly new. I can remember heated SU debates between the free-speech brigade and the do-not-offend brigade thirty years ago. The latter faction were generally more victorious in terms of motions carried etc.
    I remember Enoch Powell being no platformed at ULU nearly 40 years ago.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,392
    edited June 2020
    justin124 said:

    FPT
    Big_G_NorthWales said:


    ' Maybe but as has been said do not underestimate Boris ability to win over normal voters

    Boris has lost me, but I think many on here see Starmer as a messiah and he is far from that, though he is a huge relief from the toxic days of Corbyn'

    The fact that he has lost you as a Tory loyalist must make it highly likely that many other less Tory-inclined voters will have seen the scales fall from their eyes.I suspect that many of the firsttime Tory voters from last December already feel pretty disillusioned with Johnson - and the factors which attracted them to him - Brexit and Corbyn - have ceased to be relevant.
    The poll leads we were seeing two months ago were always artificial and were never going to last. The vote shares we are now being presented with are much more realistic with some return to normal politics having been accelerated by recent perceptions of Government mismanagement. On the basis of earlier Parliaments,however, there must be a strong possibility - particularly given the economic storms which lie ahead - that the polls are continuing to flatter the Tories relative to their likely performance in 2024. When we look back to other big election victories from 2001 - 1997 - 1987 - 1966 - and 1959, the ruling party was doing a fair bit better six months into those Parliaments than it was able to sustain at the subsequent General Election several years later

    Do not take my statement as some idea I will not vote conservative.

    I am a member and will remain so and will vote conservative
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,392
    edited June 2020
    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,807
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Carnyx said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    nico67 said:

    So the UK is set to sell out farmers .

    Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.

    Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !

    So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?

    Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.

    The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.

    Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.

    I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
    You won’t be able to make that choice because the US will insist that food cannot be labelled so as to allow consumers to know where their meat, for instance, comes from.
    I am finding this argument very amusing because clearly no one has actually gone and looked at US law.

    Under the "Farm Security and Rural Investment Act of 2002" almost all fresh produce - including chicken - must carry a Mandatory Country of Origin label. This has been reaffirmed by several amendments to the acts - the most recent in 2016.

    The really funny bit is that it was Canada who took the US to the WTO to claim that the mCOOL laws were counter to free trade and should be outlawed. The Canadians won as far as Beef and Pork are concerned but the list of foodstuffs that have to carry the mCOOL under US Federal law currently includes fresh fruits, raw vegetables, fish, shellfish, muscle cuts and ground lamb, chicken, goat, peanuts, pecans, ginseng, and macadamia nuts.

    So no, the US will not be insisting that there cannot be Country of Origin labels. In fact their own laws make it mandatory.

    FPT: In the UNITED STATES. Not overseas.
    There is a principle of reciprocation in FTAs. If the US have COOL laws then any country with an FTA with them can have the same.
    There’s traditionally a principle of reciprocity in extradition treaties too but the UK–US extradition treaty of 2003, implemented by the UK by the Extradition Act 2003, is anything but even handed. It allows the extradition of UK nationals who have committed a breach of US law in the UK - but there is no reciprocal right. I am not convinced that the inequality of bargaining power that led to that outcome in an extradition treaty will not be repeated in any FTA leading to similar asymmetries.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    So true, and Johnson will get the blame from the same people who exonerated Brown in 2008.

    What Johnson has dreamt of all his life will turn out to be worse than he could have possibly imagined. I'm with others who think he'll jack it in by the end of the year
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,810
    edited June 2020
    Looks like the papers have got bored with corona, all about german suspect in McCann case.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,609
    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Yep. Any entertainment business or seasonal holiday business is liable to go bust.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,392
    edited June 2020
    Deleted

  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,251
    I wonder if the NYT realise quite how much they've trashed their international brand with this latest "shoot the protestors" malarkey.

    I've seen a few (British) acquaintances, who'd subscribed to it for the quality of their journalism, unsubscribe today. I'd usually dismiss it as Twitter posturing but it seems legit - not least because they all go on to complain about how hard it is to actually get the NYT to cancel a subscription.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    DougSeal said:



    There’s traditionally a principle of reciprocity in extradition treaties too but the UK–US extradition treaty of 2003, implemented by the UK by the Extradition Act 2003, is anything but even handed. It allows the extradition of UK nationals who have committed a breach of US law in the UK - but there is no reciprocal right. I am not convinced that the inequality of bargaining power that led to that outcome in an extradition treaty will not be repeated in any FTA leading to similar asymmetries.

    Nonetheless the Guardian-reading classes keep repeating, as though it were 100% guaranteed truth, that the USA wants to ban us having labels showing country of origin, as part of any trade deal.

    Well, maybe they do. Let's see the evidence. Citation needed, as the saying goes.

    (And please let's not repost the completely bonkers Jon Stone tweet from earlier today, in which he demolished his own argument by referencing a US text which showed nothing of the sort).
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    kle4 said:

    I see on the BBC the president of Brazil is quoted as saying 'death was the destiny of everyone'. Who says politicians don't know how to calm a situation with their words. I mean, it is true, but boy that's a direct statement.

    Obviously a Keynesian.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    edited June 2020
    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Carnyx said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    nico67 said:

    So the UK is set to sell out farmers .

    Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.

    Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !

    So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?

    Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.

    The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.

    Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.

    I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
    You won’t be able to make that choice because the US will insist that food cannot be labelled so as to allow consumers to know where their meat, for instance, comes from.
    I am finding this argument very amusing because clearly no one has actually gone and looked at US law.

    Under the "Farm Security and Rural Investment Act of 2002" almost all fresh produce - including chicken - must carry a Mandatory Country of Origin label. This has been reaffirmed by several amendments to the acts - the most recent in 2016.

    The really funny bit is that it was Canada who took the US to the WTO to claim that the mCOOL laws were counter to free trade and should be outlawed. The Canadians won as far as Beef and Pork are concerned but the list of foodstuffs that have to carry the mCOOL under US Federal law currently includes fresh fruits, raw vegetables, fish, shellfish, muscle cuts and ground lamb, chicken, goat, peanuts, pecans, ginseng, and macadamia nuts.

    So no, the US will not be insisting that there cannot be Country of Origin labels. In fact their own laws make it mandatory.

    FPT: In the UNITED STATES. Not overseas.
    Trade agreements apply to both parties. Country of Origin is something the US wants on labels, not something it wants removing.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,512
    DougSeal said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Carnyx said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    nico67 said:

    So the UK is set to sell out farmers .

    Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.

    Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !

    So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?

    Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.

    The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.

    Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.

    I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
    You won’t be able to make that choice because the US will insist that food cannot be labelled so as to allow consumers to know where their meat, for instance, comes from.
    I am finding this argument very amusing because clearly no one has actually gone and looked at US law.

    Under the "Farm Security and Rural Investment Act of 2002" almost all fresh produce - including chicken - must carry a Mandatory Country of Origin label. This has been reaffirmed by several amendments to the acts - the most recent in 2016.

    The really funny bit is that it was Canada who took the US to the WTO to claim that the mCOOL laws were counter to free trade and should be outlawed. The Canadians won as far as Beef and Pork are concerned but the list of foodstuffs that have to carry the mCOOL under US Federal law currently includes fresh fruits, raw vegetables, fish, shellfish, muscle cuts and ground lamb, chicken, goat, peanuts, pecans, ginseng, and macadamia nuts.

    So no, the US will not be insisting that there cannot be Country of Origin labels. In fact their own laws make it mandatory.

    FPT: In the UNITED STATES. Not overseas.
    There is a principle of reciprocation in FTAs. If the US have COOL laws then any country with an FTA with them can have the same.
    There’s traditionally a principle of reciprocity in extradition treaties too but the UK–US extradition treaty of 2003, implemented by the UK by the Extradition Act 2003, is anything but even handed. It allows the extradition of UK nationals who have committed a breach of US law in the UK - but there is no reciprocal right. I am not convinced that the inequality of bargaining power that led to that outcome in an extradition treaty will not be repeated in any FTA leading to similar asymmetries.
    Well given that the US would have to argue that their own law is a barrier to free trade in order to stop the UK having COO labelling I look forward to that one being argued in which ever court is deciding the case.

    So yes I am convinced that COO labelling is allowed. Because the US wants it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,968
    edited June 2020
    El_Capitano said:

    I wonder if the NYT realise quite how much they've trashed their international brand with this latest "shoot the protestors" malarkey.

    I've seen a few (British) acquaintances, who'd subscribed to it for the quality of their journalism, unsubscribe today. I'd usually dismiss it as Twitter posturing but it seems legit - not least because they all go on to complain about how hard it is to actually get the NYT to cancel a subscription.

    I subbed up briefly when it was free as they had quick US polls when the Dem race was live.Unsubscribing is a bit of a faff.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,609
    incidentally, in my Trust 10% of tested staff are coming back antibody positive. I don't think all 5000 have yet been processed, but that fits with the 7% rate in the national sample. We are maybe 1/6th of the way to herd immunity.

    https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/coronavirus-frontline-nhs-staff-one-4192988

    Another colleague of mine down badly with it today. I shared a room with her last week.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Looks like the papers have got bored with corona, all about german suspect in McCann case.

    Tbf Corona has totally dominated for 10 weeks.

    We are all bored of it but it's not going away anytime soon.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,810
    Benpointer said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Looks like the papers have got bored with corona, all about german suspect in McCann case.

    Tbf Corona has totally dominated for 10 weeks.

    We are all bored of it but it's not going away anytime soon.
    We never got bored of daily brexit headlines though did we....
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,807
    https://twitter.com/sarahcpr/status/1268622077180825600
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    kle4 said:

    I see on the BBC the president of Brazil is quoted as saying 'death was the destiny of everyone'. Who says politicians don't know how to calm a situation with their words. I mean, it is true, but boy that's a direct statement.

    Is he a failed actuary? But the translation is too strict. A better rendering in English is "Everyone must eventually die". Of course it's true but so are many statements and he should try saying it after earthquakes, or car crashes. Bolsonaro, who has advocated sterilisation of the poor to fight crime, surpasses Trump as a polariser and Vladimir Zhirinovsky as an épateur.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Foxy said:

    incidentally, in my Trust 10% of tested staff are coming back antibody positive. I don't think all 5000 have yet been processed, but that fits with the 7% rate in the national sample. We are maybe 1/6th of the way to herd immunity.

    https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/coronavirus-frontline-nhs-staff-one-4192988

    Another colleague of mine down badly with it today. I shared a room with her last week.

    Hope the wife doesn't read this
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,088
    TimT said:

    kle4 said:

    Will things really change in the USA as a result of all this? Perhaps I'm cynical but why is it different to any other time it has happened? Trump, to be sure, is an unpredictable factor to throw into the mix, but even so.

    The effect of all these unarmed black deaths is cumulative, and the pace of publicized incidents will probably increase with the ubiquity of cell phone video. Black people's behaviour is changing, so that they routinely record all encounters with the police.

    To me it really does feel like an 'enough is enough' time. That does not mean that everything will be resolved perfectly in a few weeks or months, but I do think that the pressure for systemic change to how policing is done will be relentless until things improve markedly.

    Of course, I could be wrong.
    I think the policing unions are a problem - far too much abuse and incompetence is covered up.

    But, these things go round in circles. Theresa May dialled back on stop & search for similar reasons - until it led to a big spike in knife crime, which affects inner cities communities the most.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    edited June 2020
    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,968
    Foxy said:

    incidentally, in my Trust 10% of tested staff are coming back antibody positive. I don't think all 5000 have yet been processed, but that fits with the 7% rate in the national sample. We are maybe 1/6th of the way to herd immunity.

    https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/coronavirus-frontline-nhs-staff-one-4192988

    Another colleague of mine down badly with it today. I shared a room with her last week.

    Has anyone come back antibody +ve who never felt ill or just assumed it was hayfever and so didn't isolate or some such ?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    Foxy said:

    incidentally, in my Trust 10% of tested staff are coming back antibody positive. I don't think all 5000 have yet been processed, but that fits with the 7% rate in the national sample. We are maybe 1/6th of the way to herd immunity.

    https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/coronavirus-frontline-nhs-staff-one-4192988

    Another colleague of mine down badly with it today. I shared a room with her last week.

    Does 10% of and NHS Trust's staff being antibody positive really equate to 7% overall? I'd have thought NHS Trust staff were much more at risk of exposure than the general population.

    I have lost tack of the situation with antibody tests - are these now widely available?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,088
    Stark_Dawning said:

    FTP

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    This is an interesting take on the 'woke' vs 'liberal' culture wars we've touched on from time to time:

    https://twitter.com/bariweiss/status/1268628680797978625

    I can't see this as anything particularly new. I can remember heated SU debates between the free-speech brigade and the do-not-offend brigade thirty years ago. The latter faction were generally more victorious in terms of motions carried etc.
    It's much easier to carry the second argument.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,088
    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Cummings' Life Matters.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Casino_Royale said:

    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Cummings' Life Matters.
    If they don't give a fuck, why should we?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,807
    Casino_Royale said:

    TimT said:

    kle4 said:

    Will things really change in the USA as a result of all this? Perhaps I'm cynical but why is it different to any other time it has happened? Trump, to be sure, is an unpredictable factor to throw into the mix, but even so.

    The effect of all these unarmed black deaths is cumulative, and the pace of publicized incidents will probably increase with the ubiquity of cell phone video. Black people's behaviour is changing, so that they routinely record all encounters with the police.

    To me it really does feel like an 'enough is enough' time. That does not mean that everything will be resolved perfectly in a few weeks or months, but I do think that the pressure for systemic change to how policing is done will be relentless until things improve markedly.

    Of course, I could be wrong.
    I think the policing unions are a problem - far too much abuse and incompetence is covered up.

    But, these things go round in circles. Theresa May dialled back on stop & search for similar reasons - until it led to a big spike in knife crime, which affects inner cities communities the most.
    The policing problems we have in this country, which are real, are peanuts compared to the cancerous effects of the militarisation of American policing.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Let's be honest, the protestors yesterday were the same ones up in arms about Cummings. They proved they don't care about covid they were just point scoring.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,392
    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    You miss my point

    The way HMG deals with the job loses and economic armageddon will define it, not Cummings, Duffield, Kinnock and now Gardiner's breaches of covid regs
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,258
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Benpointer said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Looks like the papers have got bored with corona, all about german suspect in McCann case.

    Tbf Corona has totally dominated for 10 weeks.

    We are all bored of it but it's not going away anytime soon.
    We never got bored of daily brexit headlines though did we....
    We passed through boredom to the madness on the other side.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,810
    edited June 2020
    DougSeal said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    TimT said:

    kle4 said:

    Will things really change in the USA as a result of all this? Perhaps I'm cynical but why is it different to any other time it has happened? Trump, to be sure, is an unpredictable factor to throw into the mix, but even so.

    The effect of all these unarmed black deaths is cumulative, and the pace of publicized incidents will probably increase with the ubiquity of cell phone video. Black people's behaviour is changing, so that they routinely record all encounters with the police.

    To me it really does feel like an 'enough is enough' time. That does not mean that everything will be resolved perfectly in a few weeks or months, but I do think that the pressure for systemic change to how policing is done will be relentless until things improve markedly.

    Of course, I could be wrong.
    I think the policing unions are a problem - far too much abuse and incompetence is covered up.

    But, these things go round in circles. Theresa May dialled back on stop & search for similar reasons - until it led to a big spike in knife crime, which affects inner cities communities the most.
    The policing problems we have in this country, which are real, are peanuts compared to the cancerous effects of the militarisation of American policing.
    I thought it was very telling that when raising significant racist police incident in the UK, the example brought out yesterday was Stephen Lawrence, which was 27 years ago. The US don't seem to be able to go 27 days without something.

    Orders of magnitude difference in issues between the two countries.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,314
    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    That's like excusing driving after six pints because someone else parked on a yellow line.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,088
    El_Capitano said:

    I wonder if the NYT realise quite how much they've trashed their international brand with this latest "shoot the protestors" malarkey.

    I've seen a few (British) acquaintances, who'd subscribed to it for the quality of their journalism, unsubscribe today. I'd usually dismiss it as Twitter posturing but it seems legit - not least because they all go on to complain about how hard it is to actually get the NYT to cancel a subscription.

    Really? You can read the article here: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/opinion/tom-cotton-protests-military.amp.html

    I can't see anything a out shooting protestors and he draws (quite rightly) comparisons with how troops were used to quell violence from whites opposing desegregation in the 1960s.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,512
    Benpointer said:

    Foxy said:

    incidentally, in my Trust 10% of tested staff are coming back antibody positive. I don't think all 5000 have yet been processed, but that fits with the 7% rate in the national sample. We are maybe 1/6th of the way to herd immunity.

    https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/coronavirus-frontline-nhs-staff-one-4192988

    Another colleague of mine down badly with it today. I shared a room with her last week.

    Does 10% of and NHS Trust's staff being antibody positive really equate to 7% overall? I'd have thought NHS Trust staff were much more at risk of exposure than the general population.

    I have lost tack of the situation with antibody tests - are these now widely available?
    Two of my crew who were going offshore had to have the standard swab test a couple of days before they flew out and then stayed in isolation until the chopper. While they were having the swab testing done in Aberdeen - provided by a private contracted company - they asked if the antibody test was available and were told yes for a cost of £50. One of them had it and came back as positive - having had the virus in the past. The other waited until he got home and then had the antibody test - again he came back as positive.

    However both have since tried to get the test for their partners and have been told it has been stopped for private sale temporarily by the Government. I have no idea if this is actually the case or if there is some other reason why they have not been able to get it.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,807
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    You miss my point

    The way HMG deals with the job loses and economic armageddon will define it, not Cummings, Duffield, Kinnock and now Gardiner's breaches of covid regs
    Cummings actual breach was relatively trivial and would have been old news with an apology within a week. It was the attempted coverup and then the brazening it out that stuck in voters’ craw. “Barnard Castle” will be a hackneyed punch line akin to “tired and emotional” in years to come.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,001
    TimT said:

    kle4 said:

    Will things really change in the USA as a result of all this? Perhaps I'm cynical but why is it different to any other time it has happened? Trump, to be sure, is an unpredictable factor to throw into the mix, but even so.

    The effect of all these unarmed black deaths is cumulative, and the pace of publicized incidents will probably increase with the ubiquity of cell phone video. Black people's behaviour is changing, so that they routinely record all encounters with the police.

    To me it really does feel like an 'enough is enough' time. That does not mean that everything will be resolved perfectly in a few weeks or months, but I do think that the pressure for systemic change to how policing is done will be relentless until things improve markedly.

    Of course, I could be wrong.
    I agree. The mistreatment of African-Americans by the police is nothing new, and has happened throughout my life. What is (relatively) new is the ability to demonstrate this is happening through phone video recordings, largely by bystanders.

    A subsidiary factor that could have led to a rise in such cases may be that Trump has emboldened a minority of the police, and some of his other supporters, to exercise their 'freedoms' in the pursuit of their prejudices, as in the Ahmaud Arbery case.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,392
    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Now that is utter nonsense

    If Cummings had not happened, yesteday would still have happened with the outrage over the murder by US police of yet another black man

    Black lives matter
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    DougSeal said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    You miss my point

    The way HMG deals with the job loses and economic armageddon will define it, not Cummings, Duffield, Kinnock and now Gardiner's breaches of covid regs
    Cummings actual breach was relatively trivial and would have been old news with an apology within a week. It was the attempted coverup and then the brazening it out that stuck in voters’ craw. “Barnard Castle” will be a hackneyed punch line akin to “tired and emotional” in years to come.
    I disagree, in 4 years time nobody will remember Cummings
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,088
    DougSeal said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    TimT said:

    kle4 said:

    Will things really change in the USA as a result of all this? Perhaps I'm cynical but why is it different to any other time it has happened? Trump, to be sure, is an unpredictable factor to throw into the mix, but even so.

    The effect of all these unarmed black deaths is cumulative, and the pace of publicized incidents will probably increase with the ubiquity of cell phone video. Black people's behaviour is changing, so that they routinely record all encounters with the police.

    To me it really does feel like an 'enough is enough' time. That does not mean that everything will be resolved perfectly in a few weeks or months, but I do think that the pressure for systemic change to how policing is done will be relentless until things improve markedly.

    Of course, I could be wrong.
    I think the policing unions are a problem - far too much abuse and incompetence is covered up.

    But, these things go round in circles. Theresa May dialled back on stop & search for similar reasons - until it led to a big spike in knife crime, which affects inner cities communities the most.
    The policing problems we have in this country, which are real, are peanuts compared to the cancerous effects of the militarisation of American policing.
    I agree.

    And, yet, you have articles published in the Guardian saying that Britain invented racism, we are responsible for its incubation in America and are just as bad in every way.

    Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Advisors in HR departments around the country are echoing this absolutely with everyone nodding along like donkeys.

    We all secretly know it's been hugely overblown: we're just nervous of commenting as such in a highly-emotionally charged situation.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    You miss my point

    The way HMG deals with the job loses and economic armageddon will define it, not Cummings, Duffield, Kinnock and now Gardiner's breaches of covid regs
    Opposition MPs are irrelevant because they don't make the rules. The economic trouble will define it, but the Cummings will remain important it defines what the govt were up to at the critical moment.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    edited June 2020
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Now that is utter nonsense

    If Cummings had not happened, yesteday would still have happened with the outrage over the murder by US police of yet another black man

    Black lives matter
    The govt lost its authority to enforce its own rules.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,392
    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    You miss my point

    The way HMG deals with the job loses and economic armageddon will define it, not Cummings, Duffield, Kinnock and now Gardiner's breaches of covid regs
    Opposition MPs are irrelevant because they don't make the rules. The economic trouble will define it, but the Cummings will remain important it defines what the govt were up to at the critical moment.
    Cummings will be long gone and the agenda will have moved on
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,088
    Jonathan said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Cummings' Life Matters.
    If they don't give a fuck, why should we?
    Because you don't want to get the virus?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Benpointer said:

    Foxy said:

    incidentally, in my Trust 10% of tested staff are coming back antibody positive. I don't think all 5000 have yet been processed, but that fits with the 7% rate in the national sample. We are maybe 1/6th of the way to herd immunity.

    https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/coronavirus-frontline-nhs-staff-one-4192988

    Another colleague of mine down badly with it today. I shared a room with her last week.

    Does 10% of and NHS Trust's staff being antibody positive really equate to 7% overall? I'd have thought NHS Trust staff were much more at risk of exposure than the general population.

    I have lost tack of the situation with antibody tests - are these now widely available?
    Two of my crew who were going offshore had to have the standard swab test a couple of days before they flew out and then stayed in isolation until the chopper. While they were having the swab testing done in Aberdeen - provided by a private contracted company - they asked if the antibody test was available and were told yes for a cost of £50. One of them had it and came back as positive - having had the virus in the past. The other waited until he got home and then had the antibody test - again he came back as positive.

    However both have since tried to get the test for their partners and have been told it has been stopped for private sale temporarily by the Government. I have no idea if this is actually the case or if there is some other reason why they have not been able to get it.
    Makes sense to control it centrally if (as I assume) there is a limited supply. Very important for HMG and SAGE to understand the total picture re antibodies and I assume they are not going to find that out if tests are administered privately.

    At what point, I wonder, would evidence of a relatively high percentage of the population having CV-19 antibodies lead to a shift in lockdown policy?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,392
    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Now that is utter nonsense

    If Cummings had not happened, yesteday would still have happened with the outrage over the murder by US police of yet another black man

    Black lives matter
    The govt lost its authority to enforce its own rules.
    And what has that to do with yesterdays protest
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,088
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    DougSeal said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    TimT said:

    kle4 said:

    Will things really change in the USA as a result of all this? Perhaps I'm cynical but why is it different to any other time it has happened? Trump, to be sure, is an unpredictable factor to throw into the mix, but even so.

    The effect of all these unarmed black deaths is cumulative, and the pace of publicized incidents will probably increase with the ubiquity of cell phone video. Black people's behaviour is changing, so that they routinely record all encounters with the police.

    To me it really does feel like an 'enough is enough' time. That does not mean that everything will be resolved perfectly in a few weeks or months, but I do think that the pressure for systemic change to how policing is done will be relentless until things improve markedly.

    Of course, I could be wrong.
    I think the policing unions are a problem - far too much abuse and incompetence is covered up.

    But, these things go round in circles. Theresa May dialled back on stop & search for similar reasons - until it led to a big spike in knife crime, which affects inner cities communities the most.
    The policing problems we have in this country, which are real, are peanuts compared to the cancerous effects of the militarisation of American policing.
    I thought it was very telling that when raising significant racist police incident in the UK, the example brought out yesterday was Stephen Lawrence, which was 27 years ago. The US don't seem to be able to go 27 days without something.

    Orders of magnitude difference in issues between the two countries.
    Yep.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    You miss my point

    The way HMG deals with the job loses and economic armageddon will define it, not Cummings, Duffield, Kinnock and now Gardiner's breaches of covid regs
    Opposition MPs are irrelevant because they don't make the rules. The economic trouble will define it, but the Cummings will remain important it defines what the govt were up to at the critical moment.
    Nah, as people are given their cards they're not going to be thinking about a bloke who drove to Durham, as much as you'd like to think so.

    As somebody pointed out earlier, we've already moved on from black lives to Madeleine McCann, Cummings is fish and chip paper
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,231
    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    On consultation now. So effectively.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Now that is utter nonsense

    If Cummings had not happened, yesteday would still have happened with the outrage over the murder by US police of yet another black man

    Black lives matter
    The govt lost its authority to enforce its own rules.
    And what has that to do with yesterdays protest
    The govt would have responded differently if Cummings had not happened.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    coach said:

    DougSeal said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    You miss my point

    The way HMG deals with the job loses and economic armageddon will define it, not Cummings, Duffield, Kinnock and now Gardiner's breaches of covid regs
    Cummings actual breach was relatively trivial and would have been old news with an apology within a week. It was the attempted coverup and then the brazening it out that stuck in voters’ craw. “Barnard Castle” will be a hackneyed punch line akin to “tired and emotional” in years to come.
    I disagree, in 4 years time nobody will remember Cummings
    Guardianistas who already hated him will ...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,088
    Jonathan said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Cummings' Life Matters.
    If they don't give a fuck, why should we?
    Because you don't want to get the virus?
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Now that is utter nonsense

    If Cummings had not happened, yesteday would still have happened with the outrage over the murder by US police of yet another black man

    Black lives matter
    When he gets the partisan bit between his teeth he goes all Damien McBride and is utterly unreadable.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited June 2020
    Benpointer said:


    I have lost tack of the situation with antibody tests - are these now widely available?

    Just started a few days back, 200k done so far, 40k today. Only thing I've seen about plans:

    "...plans to provide antibody tests to NHS and care staff in England from the end of May.
    Clinicians will also be able to request the tests for patients in both hospital and social care settings if they think it’s appropriate.

    ....blahblah.....

    The government is also working in partnership with the private sector to develop a ‘finger-prick’ type test, similar to a diabetes test, which will be suitable for use at home and without medical supervision but has not yet been validated for use. We will provide more detail on the development of this test.
    "
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-antibody-tests/coronavirus-covid-19-antibody-tests

  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Now that is utter nonsense

    If Cummings had not happened, yesteday would still have happened with the outrage over the murder by US police of yet another black man

    Black lives matter
    The govt lost its authority to enforce its own rules.
    And what has that to do with yesterdays protest
    The govt would have responded differently if Cummings had not happened.
    You think they'd have used water cannons? Opened fire?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,392
    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    You miss my point

    The way HMG deals with the job loses and economic armageddon will define it, not Cummings, Duffield, Kinnock and now Gardiner's breaches of covid regs
    Opposition MPs are irrelevant because they don't make the rules. The economic trouble will define it, but the Cummings will remain important it defines what the govt were up to at the critical moment.
    Nah, as people are given their cards they're not going to be thinking about a bloke who drove to Durham, as much as you'd like to think so.

    As somebody pointed out earlier, we've already moved on from black lives to Madeleine McCann, Cummings is fish and chip paper
    Yesterdays poll showed just 7% (yes 7%) said Cummings had affected their behaviour
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    edited June 2020
    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    You miss my point

    The way HMG deals with the job loses and economic armageddon will define it, not Cummings, Duffield, Kinnock and now Gardiner's breaches of covid regs
    Opposition MPs are irrelevant because they don't make the rules. The economic trouble will define it, but the Cummings will remain important it defines what the govt were up to at the critical moment.
    Nah, as people are given their cards they're not going to be thinking about a bloke who drove to Durham, as much as you'd like to think so.

    As somebody pointed out earlier, we've already moved on from black lives to Madeleine McCann, Cummings is fish and chip paper
    When you get your cards and ask what the govt did for you and wonder who is to blame, you will remember the shambles and the hypocrisy and that the government cared more about its own at the key moment.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,088
    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Now that is utter nonsense

    If Cummings had not happened, yesteday would still have happened with the outrage over the murder by US police of yet another black man

    Black lives matter
    The govt lost its authority to enforce its own rules.
    And what has that to do with yesterdays protest
    The govt would have responded differently if Cummings had not happened.
    Rubbish and you know it.

    Government and police aren't breaking it up because they fear another 2011 riots situation nationwide.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,392
    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Now that is utter nonsense

    If Cummings had not happened, yesteday would still have happened with the outrage over the murder by US police of yet another black man

    Black lives matter
    The govt lost its authority to enforce its own rules.
    And what has that to do with yesterdays protest
    The govt would have responded differently if Cummings had not happened.
    You are being absurd.

    Care to explain how
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Philip_Thompson said:

    coach said:

    DougSeal said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    You miss my point

    The way HMG deals with the job loses and economic armageddon will define it, not Cummings, Duffield, Kinnock and now Gardiner's breaches of covid regs
    Cummings actual breach was relatively trivial and would have been old news with an apology within a week. It was the attempted coverup and then the brazening it out that stuck in voters’ craw. “Barnard Castle” will be a hackneyed punch line akin to “tired and emotional” in years to come.
    I disagree, in 4 years time nobody will remember Cummings
    Guardianistas who already hated him will ...
    They'll have another target by then, Cummings will be long gone
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    Casino_Royale said:

    DougSeal said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    TimT said:

    kle4 said:

    Will things really change in the USA as a result of all this? Perhaps I'm cynical but why is it different to any other time it has happened? Trump, to be sure, is an unpredictable factor to throw into the mix, but even so.

    The effect of all these unarmed black deaths is cumulative, and the pace of publicized incidents will probably increase with the ubiquity of cell phone video. Black people's behaviour is changing, so that they routinely record all encounters with the police.

    To me it really does feel like an 'enough is enough' time. That does not mean that everything will be resolved perfectly in a few weeks or months, but I do think that the pressure for systemic change to how policing is done will be relentless until things improve markedly.

    Of course, I could be wrong.
    I think the policing unions are a problem - far too much abuse and incompetence is covered up.

    But, these things go round in circles. Theresa May dialled back on stop & search for similar reasons - until it led to a big spike in knife crime, which affects inner cities communities the most.
    The policing problems we have in this country, which are real, are peanuts compared to the cancerous effects of the militarisation of American policing.
    I agree.

    And, yet, you have articles published in the Guardian saying that Britain invented racism, we are responsible for its incubation in America and are just as bad in every way.

    Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Advisors in HR departments around the country are echoing this absolutely with everyone nodding along like donkeys.

    We all secretly know it's been hugely overblown: we're just nervous of commenting as such in a highly-emotionally charged situation.
    I think unconscious bias is a well-proven phenomenom which we pretty much all exhibit. The shocking conclusion of that is that, yes, we are all at least a little bit racist even though we don't intend to be.

    Acknowledging that is an important step to resolving it imo.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,551
    coach said:

    DougSeal said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    You miss my point

    The way HMG deals with the job loses and economic armageddon will define it, not Cummings, Duffield, Kinnock and now Gardiner's breaches of covid regs
    Cummings actual breach was relatively trivial and would have been old news with an apology within a week. It was the attempted coverup and then the brazening it out that stuck in voters’ craw. “Barnard Castle” will be a hackneyed punch line akin to “tired and emotional” in years to come.
    I disagree, in 4 years time nobody will remember Cummings
    Nah, we all remember Alastair Campbell.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,810
    edited June 2020
    Sadiq Khan gave the go ahead for yesterday. He isn't comprised by Big Dom scandal. To be fair to him, i think it was going to happen one way or another, whatever he said.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Sadiq Khan gave the go ahead for yesterday. He isn't comprised by Big Dom scandal. To be fair to him, i think it was going to happen one way or another, whatever he said.

    Yes but he could have been firmer in telling people not to come to it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,313
    https://twitter.com/CBSEveningNews/status/1268627036454768648
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    Andrew said:

    Benpointer said:


    I have lost tack of the situation with antibody tests - are these now widely available?

    Just started a few days back, 200k done so far, 40k today. Only thing I've seen about plans:

    "...plans to provide antibody tests to NHS and care staff in England from the end of May.
    Clinicians will also be able to request the tests for patients in both hospital and social care settings if they think it’s appropriate.

    ....blahblah.....

    The government is also working in partnership with the private sector to develop a ‘finger-prick’ type test, similar to a diabetes test, which will be suitable for use at home and without medical supervision but has not yet been validated for use. We will provide more detail on the development of this test.
    "
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-antibody-tests/coronavirus-covid-19-antibody-tests

    Interesting, thanks.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,231
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    You miss my point

    The way HMG deals with the job loses and economic armageddon will define it, not Cummings, Duffield, Kinnock and now Gardiner's breaches of covid regs
    Opposition MPs are irrelevant because they don't make the rules. The economic trouble will define it, but the Cummings will remain important it defines what the govt were up to at the critical moment.
    Nah, as people are given their cards they're not going to be thinking about a bloke who drove to Durham, as much as you'd like to think so.

    As somebody pointed out earlier, we've already moved on from black lives to Madeleine McCann, Cummings is fish and chip paper
    Yesterdays poll showed just 7% (yes 7%) said Cummings had affected their behaviour
    Is that out of a hundred people flouting the lockdown laws seven were there because of Cummings, or is that out of a hundred people seven were out flouting the lockdown laws and ninety three were obediently inside?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Now that is utter nonsense

    If Cummings had not happened, yesteday would still have happened with the outrage over the murder by US police of yet another black man

    Black lives matter
    The govt lost its authority to enforce its own rules.
    And what has that to do with yesterdays protest
    The govt would have responded differently if Cummings had not happened.
    You are being absurd.

    Care to explain how
    It can't say anything about people bending the rules without ridicule.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    You miss my point

    The way HMG deals with the job loses and economic armageddon will define it, not Cummings, Duffield, Kinnock and now Gardiner's breaches of covid regs
    Opposition MPs are irrelevant because they don't make the rules. The economic trouble will define it, but the Cummings will remain important it defines what the govt were up to at the critical moment.
    Nah, as people are given their cards they're not going to be thinking about a bloke who drove to Durham, as much as you'd like to think so.

    As somebody pointed out earlier, we've already moved on from black lives to Madeleine McCann, Cummings is fish and chip paper
    When you get your cards and ask what the govt did for you and wonder who is to blame, you will remember the shambles and the hypocrisy and that the government cared more about its own at the key moment.
    Oh yes Boris will get the blame, of that there is no doubt.

    But they won't blame Cummings
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,551
    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Now that is utter nonsense

    If Cummings had not happened, yesteday would still have happened with the outrage over the murder by US police of yet another black man

    Black lives matter
    The govt lost its authority to enforce its own rules.
    And what has that to do with yesterdays protest
    The govt would have responded differently if Cummings had not happened.
    You think they'd have used water cannons? Opened fire?
    They only use water cannon against predominantly white folks - in Northern Ireland.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,392
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Sadiq Khan gave the go ahead for yesterday. He isn't comprised by Big Dom scandal. To be fair to him, i think it was going to happen one way or another, whatever he said.

    Nobody could or should have tried to stop it

    However, the lack of social distancing is a real worry
  • isamisam Posts: 42,314
    Casino_Royale said:

    DougSeal said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    TimT said:

    kle4 said:

    Will things really change in the USA as a result of all this? Perhaps I'm cynical but why is it different to any other time it has happened? Trump, to be sure, is an unpredictable factor to throw into the mix, but even so.

    The effect of all these unarmed black deaths is cumulative, and the pace of publicized incidents will probably increase with the ubiquity of cell phone video. Black people's behaviour is changing, so that they routinely record all encounters with the police.

    To me it really does feel like an 'enough is enough' time. That does not mean that everything will be resolved perfectly in a few weeks or months, but I do think that the pressure for systemic change to how policing is done will be relentless until things improve markedly.

    Of course, I could be wrong.
    I think the policing unions are a problem - far too much abuse and incompetence is covered up.

    But, these things go round in circles. Theresa May dialled back on stop & search for similar reasons - until it led to a big spike in knife crime, which affects inner cities communities the most.
    The policing problems we have in this country, which are real, are peanuts compared to the cancerous effects of the militarisation of American policing.
    I agree.

    And, yet, you have articles published in the Guardian saying that Britain invented racism, we are responsible for its incubation in America and are just as bad in every way.

    Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Advisors in HR departments around the country are echoing this absolutely with everyone nodding along like donkeys.

    We all secretly know it's been hugely overblown: we're just nervous of commenting as such in a highly-emotionally charged situation.
    Michael Portillo currently has a show on ch5 about the Empire that is pretty damning about our colonial behaviour including, but not only, the racism. There can't be much doubt that our position in the world was built on shaky moral foundations. Behind every great fortune is a crime forgotten as they say
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,313
    That coup in full detail...

    https://twitter.com/dave_brown24/status/1268629914502266883
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,392
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    coach said:

    DougSeal said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    You miss my point

    The way HMG deals with the job loses and economic armageddon will define it, not Cummings, Duffield, Kinnock and now Gardiner's breaches of covid regs
    Cummings actual breach was relatively trivial and would have been old news with an apology within a week. It was the attempted coverup and then the brazening it out that stuck in voters’ craw. “Barnard Castle” will be a hackneyed punch line akin to “tired and emotional” in years to come.
    I disagree, in 4 years time nobody will remember Cummings
    Nah, we all remember Alastair Campbell.
    He has a daily breakdown on tv these days
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,609
    Benpointer said:

    Foxy said:

    incidentally, in my Trust 10% of tested staff are coming back antibody positive. I don't think all 5000 have yet been processed, but that fits with the 7% rate in the national sample. We are maybe 1/6th of the way to herd immunity.

    https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/coronavirus-frontline-nhs-staff-one-4192988

    Another colleague of mine down badly with it today. I shared a room with her last week.

    Does 10% of and NHS Trust's staff being antibody positive really equate to 7% overall? I'd have thought NHS Trust staff were much more at risk of exposure than the general population.

    I have lost tack of the situation with antibody tests - are these now widely available?
    Its NHS staff first. We have 11 000 staff in our Trust, so nearly halfway there (not had mine yet). I am not sure how many of the 5000 have been analysed or how other Trusts are getting on.

    This is the highly reliable Roche test, rather than the previously unreliable ones.

  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Also, apparently they've signed up to purchase ten million antibody tests, so presumably there's going to be wider public availability at some stage.

    https://www.medtechdive.com/news/abbott-roche-ink-deals-with-uk-for-10m-coronavirus-antibody-tests/578486/
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,968
    edited June 2020
    Casino_Royale said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Now that is utter nonsense

    If Cummings had not happened, yesteday would still have happened with the outrage over the murder by US police of yet another black man

    Black lives matter
    The govt lost its authority to enforce its own rules.
    And what has that to do with yesterdays protest
    The govt would have responded differently if Cummings had not happened.
    Rubbish and you know it.

    Government and police aren't breaking it up because they fear another 2011 riots situation nationwide.
    This is right.
    Cummings isn't helpful so far as lockdown compliance goes but the people at the protest won't have noticed or cared about him. They want to smash capitalism and the Tories.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,807
    Casino_Royale said:

    DougSeal said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    TimT said:

    kle4 said:

    Will things really change in the USA as a result of all this? Perhaps I'm cynical but why is it different to any other time it has happened? Trump, to be sure, is an unpredictable factor to throw into the mix, but even so.

    The effect of all these unarmed black deaths is cumulative, and the pace of publicized incidents will probably increase with the ubiquity of cell phone video. Black people's behaviour is changing, so that they routinely record all encounters with the police.

    To me it really does feel like an 'enough is enough' time. That does not mean that everything will be resolved perfectly in a few weeks or months, but I do think that the pressure for systemic change to how policing is done will be relentless until things improve markedly.

    Of course, I could be wrong.
    I think the policing unions are a problem - far too much abuse and incompetence is covered up.

    But, these things go round in circles. Theresa May dialled back on stop & search for similar reasons - until it led to a big spike in knife crime, which affects inner cities communities the most.
    The policing problems we have in this country, which are real, are peanuts compared to the cancerous effects of the militarisation of American policing.
    I agree.

    And, yet, you have articles published in the Guardian saying that Britain invented racism, we are responsible for its incubation in America and are just as bad in every way.

    Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Advisors in HR departments around the country are echoing this absolutely with everyone nodding along like donkeys.

    We all secretly know it's been hugely overblown: we're just nervous of commenting as such in a highly-emotionally charged situation.
    The Guardian overblown? You shock me!

    Being serious though, there is an issue with the UK police and racism, so we should not rest on our laurels (not that we are winning any prizes), and also in the workplace, I might be biased, HR departments and aggrieved employees are my clients after all, but there are real issues that cause understandable anger in the black community. Add to the mix the video from the States, a country we are culturally very close to and influenced by, the frustrations of the lockdown, the economic uncertainty, and the disproportionate effect the Covid-19 crisis is having on the black community (we don’t agree why this is but that community will have their views that absolutely must be listened to) then we have a highly combustible situation. I think yesterday’s demo was absolutely necessary to defuse it. We’ll see in two weeks whether it has an effect on the infection rates.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,807
    coach said:

    DougSeal said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    You miss my point

    The way HMG deals with the job loses and economic armageddon will define it, not Cummings, Duffield, Kinnock and now Gardiner's breaches of covid regs
    Cummings actual breach was relatively trivial and would have been old news with an apology within a week. It was the attempted coverup and then the brazening it out that stuck in voters’ craw. “Barnard Castle” will be a hackneyed punch line akin to “tired and emotional” in years to come.
    I disagree, in 4 years time nobody will remember Cummings
    Let’s check back then and see.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,088
    Benpointer said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    DougSeal said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    TimT said:

    kle4 said:

    Will things really change in the USA as a result of all this? Perhaps I'm cynical but why is it different to any other time it has happened? Trump, to be sure, is an unpredictable factor to throw into the mix, but even so.

    The effect of all these unarmed black deaths is cumulative, and the pace of publicized incidents will probably increase with the ubiquity of cell phone video. Black people's behaviour is changing, so that they routinely record all encounters with the police.

    To me it really does feel like an 'enough is enough' time. That does not mean that everything will be resolved perfectly in a few weeks or months, but I do think that the pressure for systemic change to how policing is done will be relentless until things improve markedly.

    Of course, I could be wrong.
    I think the policing unions are a problem - far too much abuse and incompetence is covered up.

    But, these things go round in circles. Theresa May dialled back on stop & search for similar reasons - until it led to a big spike in knife crime, which affects inner cities communities the most.
    The policing problems we have in this country, which are real, are peanuts compared to the cancerous effects of the militarisation of American policing.
    I agree.

    And, yet, you have articles published in the Guardian saying that Britain invented racism, we are responsible for its incubation in America and are just as bad in every way.

    Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Advisors in HR departments around the country are echoing this absolutely with everyone nodding along like donkeys.

    We all secretly know it's been hugely overblown: we're just nervous of commenting as such in a highly-emotionally charged situation.
    I think unconscious bias is a well-proven phenomenom which we pretty much all exhibit. The shocking conclusion of that is that, yes, we are all at least a little bit racist even though we don't intend to be.

    Acknowledging that is an important step to resolving it imo.
    Yes, that's part of the human condition. It happens in all walks of life.

    But that proportional and moderate argument isn't the one being made.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,392
    edited June 2020
    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Jonathan said:

    coach said:

    Jonathan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:



    coach said:

    TOPPING said:

    It has begun.

    First comment on my FB page (yes I'm that old) from a friend who has just been made redundant after 16 years having been furloughed.

    Entertainment, marquees.

    If he's been made redundant before the furlough ends that is indeed worrying. There'll be so many in the next few months, dreadful situation
    Many millions across the UK, EU and worldwide

    How governments deal with it will decide their destiny

    And not Cummings nonsense
    The Cummings nonsense is important in two ways. The government chucked away much of its authority and when we look back at these times we will remember a govt that did one thing whilst preaching another. It was looking after its own more then looking after you.
    The Cummings story ended in London yesterday
    Really, arguably it made the events in London possible.
    Now that is utter nonsense

    If Cummings had not happened, yesteday would still have happened with the outrage over the murder by US police of yet another black man

    Black lives matter
    The govt lost its authority to enforce its own rules.
    And what has that to do with yesterdays protest
    The govt would have responded differently if Cummings had not happened.
    You are being absurd.

    Care to explain how
    It can't say anything about people bending the rules without ridicule.
    Are you referring to Duffield, Kinnock and Gardiner yesterday (all labour) who broke the rules
This discussion has been closed.

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