politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why Starmer is unlikely to be the next PM
Comments
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So we need it to be led by somebody with bite?Big_G_NorthWales said:
It will not be Boris heading his own enquiryJonathan said:
Boris deflecting his responsibility and any blame onto civil servants. 🤷♂️Big_G_NorthWales said:
I expect any public enquiry will expose PHE as unfit for purpose and will have serious criticism of the NHS as an organisation. Furthermore Sage may well have questions to answerScott_xP said:Those betting on BoZo's departure date would do well to factor in the timing of the inevitable public inquiry
It is quite clear listening to Nicola that she has acted exactly as Boris until this last couple of weeks, especially in respect of care homes. She continually repeats she will only follow the advice so it is fair to assume in the Cobra meetings, both Boris and Nicola acted on that advise.
Boris is reported to have said in the 1922 meeting yesterday that PHE have questions to answer.
I know you have a bitter take on Boris but you may find that the public enquiries have a lot more to say about the public health bodies and the scientific advisors
The key on actions taken here will be sage advice and the decisions by Cobra0 -
I wouldn't believe the propaganda from China or Iran.Barnesian said:
The other possibility is the discovery that very many people have a natural immunity to the virus, perhaps a genetic thing. Perhaps over half the population.Socky said:However if a vaccine is found, and particularly if it is a UK developed one, that changes everything.
It would explain why the epidemic fizzled out in China and Iran and perhaps London which can't be explained by herd immunity from infection. It would also explain the anecdotes of couples where one dies of the virus and the other apparently doesn't catch it in spite of their extreme closeness.
If true, and it fizzled out over the summer, it would be a game changer. Trump would be vindicated and re-elected. All countries would have massive financial hang-overs. Scientists would be discredited.
I suspect they have some of the highest (if not the highest) death rates in the world from Covid-19.
They're just covering it up to save face. They both have every national interest going for the USA to stay top of the league.3 -
But not Cummings.Jonathan said:
There should be a market for who Boris will blame or sack to deflect attention from him. Surely in the firing line we have.ydoethur said:
Silly twat.Jonathan said:
Boris deflecting his responsibility and any blame onto civil servants. 🤷♂️Big_G_NorthWales said:
I expect any public enquiry will expose PHE as unfit for purpose and will have serious criticism of the NHS as an organisation. Furthermore Sage may well have questions to answerScott_xP said:Those betting on BoZo's departure date would do well to factor in the timing of the inevitable public inquiry
It is quite clear listening to Nicola that she has acted exactly as Boris until this last couple of weeks, especially in respect of care homes. She continually repeats she will only follow the advice so it is fair to assume in the Cobra meetings, both Boris and Nicola acted on that advise.
Boris is reported to have said in the 1922 meeting yesterday that PHE have questions to answer.
I know you have a bitter take on Boris but you may find that the public enquiries have a lot more to say about the public health bodies and the scientific advisors
A golden opportunity like this to deflect blame onto an erratic and dishonest chancer with the intellect of a dead stoat, and he takes aim at civil servants instead?
Govt Scientists
Matt Hancock
Rishi Sunak0 -
Commentators from both right and left are converging on Andrew Lansley's NHS reforms as having done immense harm to public health (PHE created; public health offloaded from NHS to local councils) and to the NHS generally. Even at the time, the Cabinet was said to be gobsmacked at what Lansley was up to, when he had promised only minor, administrative changes. It would be no great surprise to see a reversal and the end of PHE.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I expect any public enquiry will expose PHE as unfit for purpose and will have serious criticism of the NHS as an organisation. Furthermore Sage may well have questions to answerScott_xP said:Those betting on BoZo's departure date would do well to factor in the timing of the inevitable public inquiry
It is quite clear listening to Nicola that she has acted exactly as Boris until this last couple of weeks, especially in respect of care homes. She continually repeats she will only follow the advice so it is fair to assume in the Cobra meetings, both Boris and Nicola acted on that advise.
Boris is reported to have said in the 1922 meeting yesterday that PHE have questions to answer.
I know you have a bitter take on Boris but you may find that the public enquiries have a lot more to say about the public health bodies and the scientific advisors1 -
BoZo's government will be defined by covid.BluestBlue said:optimism and self-belief can move mountains.
Pretending otherwise is not optimism, it's denial.0 -
You seem to think that Boris and the three first ministers are going to overrule advice and set their own course.Scott_xP said:
Advisors advise, ministers decide...Big_G_NorthWales said:I know you have a bitter take on Boris but you may find that the public enquiries have a lot more to say about the public health bodies and the scientific advisors
https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/status/1260665437790130177
Care homes across the nation are suffering the same so lets see the attacks on Nicola, Drakeford and Foster.
None of them acted differently0 -
Boris doesn't look well to me. And he's motivated by a sense of ambition, not duty.Jonathan said:Reasons leaders have departed early before facing an election....
1) Total political failure (Eden, Cameron)
2) An obvious electoral liability (May, IDS)
3) Outstayed their welcome after a long stint (Thatcher, Blair)
4) Health (Macmillan, Wilson, Churchill, Gaitskill, Smith)
The others leaders left after defeat (some after hanging on too long). So where does that leave Boris going before 2024? Most like 4, then 2, then 1. I suspect if defeat become likely he will not hang around to take the humiliation.
If he can't get done what he wants to get done (all too hard and woefully constrained post Covid-19) then expect him to quit the stage.1 -
Trump being rere-elected in thta scenario isn't too good to be true! But the scenario is possible and would be a game changer. I agree it feels too good to be true. But ... you heard it here first.Black_Rook said:
Another scenario to be filed away under "too good to be true," I fear.Barnesian said:
The other possibility is the discovery that very many people have a natural immunity to the virus, perhaps a genetic thing. Perhaps over half the population.Socky said:However if a vaccine is found, and particularly if it is a UK developed one, that changes everything.
It would explain why the epidemic fizzled out in China and Iran and perhaps London which can't be explained by herd immunity from infection. It would also explain the anecdotes of couples where one dies of the virus and the other apparently doesn't catch it in spite of their extreme closeness.
If true, and it fizzled out over the summer, it would be a game changer. Trump would be vindicated and re-elected. All countries would have massive financial hang-overs. Scientists would be discredited.0 -
A truly venomous remark.ydoethur said:
So we need it to be led by somebody with bite?Big_G_NorthWales said:
It will not be Boris heading his own enquiryJonathan said:
Boris deflecting his responsibility and any blame onto civil servants. 🤷♂️Big_G_NorthWales said:
I expect any public enquiry will expose PHE as unfit for purpose and will have serious criticism of the NHS as an organisation. Furthermore Sage may well have questions to answerScott_xP said:Those betting on BoZo's departure date would do well to factor in the timing of the inevitable public inquiry
It is quite clear listening to Nicola that she has acted exactly as Boris until this last couple of weeks, especially in respect of care homes. She continually repeats she will only follow the advice so it is fair to assume in the Cobra meetings, both Boris and Nicola acted on that advise.
Boris is reported to have said in the 1922 meeting yesterday that PHE have questions to answer.
I know you have a bitter take on Boris but you may find that the public enquiries have a lot more to say about the public health bodies and the scientific advisors
The key on actions taken here will be sage advice and the decisions by Cobra0 -
Cummings may well be sacked later, but it will be a risk because Cummings knows where the bodies are buried and I am not sure Boris will like Cummings serving another master.ydoethur said:
But not Cummings.Jonathan said:
There should be a market for who Boris will blame or sack to deflect attention from him. Surely in the firing line we have.ydoethur said:
Silly twat.Jonathan said:
Boris deflecting his responsibility and any blame onto civil servants. 🤷♂️Big_G_NorthWales said:
I expect any public enquiry will expose PHE as unfit for purpose and will have serious criticism of the NHS as an organisation. Furthermore Sage may well have questions to answerScott_xP said:Those betting on BoZo's departure date would do well to factor in the timing of the inevitable public inquiry
It is quite clear listening to Nicola that she has acted exactly as Boris until this last couple of weeks, especially in respect of care homes. She continually repeats she will only follow the advice so it is fair to assume in the Cobra meetings, both Boris and Nicola acted on that advise.
Boris is reported to have said in the 1922 meeting yesterday that PHE have questions to answer.
I know you have a bitter take on Boris but you may find that the public enquiries have a lot more to say about the public health bodies and the scientific advisors
A golden opportunity like this to deflect blame onto an erratic and dishonest chancer with the intellect of a dead stoat, and he takes aim at civil servants instead?
Govt Scientists
Matt Hancock
Rishi Sunak
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Thank you.SouthamObserver said:
Many congratulations. You’ve been married just over two weeks longer than I’ve been alive!!Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this day in 1964 I married my beloved at St Gerardine's Church in Lossiemouthmalcolmg said:
I for one hope it is not, the sooner we are independent the better.Black_Rook said:
I'd go further than that and say that speculatingmalcolmg said:
Sajid is a talentless no hoper, if he is the one then Starmer is a dead cert. Sunak looks the part at this point and if he continues as he is now he will be the top Tory by a mile.SouthamObserver said:I think David is right on this. The problem is who takes over. Sunak seems the obvious choice, but will he be once the tough decisions start to be made? The lack of talent in the Cabinet is truly something to behold. No wonder Sajid and Hunt are already on manouevres.
Hunt is about the only other one that sounds half competent.
Going to be tough for Tories to hang on once Brexit piles the crap on top of the virus expenditure , I would not bet someone else's money on Tories at this point.
about 2024 is essentially pointless.
Not only have we no idea what the economic situation will look like by that point, we don't even know if the country as presently constituted will still exist.
We have been blessed0 -
It's daft to pin anything on that. It's like putting your watch and car keys on red 27 when they're going to chuck you out of the casino. We need to survive, and thrive with Coronavirus. If we can vaccinate it out of existence, that will be a lovely bonus.Socky said:However if a vaccine is found, and particularly if it is a UK developed one, that changes everything.
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No you couldn't unless you reckon you can freely stand shoulder to shoulder with strangers and that there's no such thing as a 2 metre rule.TOPPING said:I've never been more aware of the BBC as a State Broadcaster than now. It's mobile front page is essentially a cut and paste from the Ministry of Information.
Even to the point of getting it presumably intentionally wrong over the new exercise rules. It says you can now exercise outside with someone from outside your household for the first time. Which is wrong. You always could.0 -
I think that's a fair summary.SouthamObserver said:
Not at all. Mrs Thatcher was exceptionally talented. She was incredibly effective and on top of her brief. In this Cabinet I think you can only say that of Gove, though Sunak offers promise. Osborne, too, from previous times.coach said:When people talk about talented politicians what does it mean?
I assume it means they agree with them
Hunt knows his stuff too. I don't agree with @Dura_Ace very often but I agree his rat eyes are a problem, though.0 -
On the Iran point, there's enough information and intelligence out there that strongly discredits the official stats they're producing.Casino_Royale said:
I wouldn't believe the propaganda from China or Iran.Barnesian said:
The other possibility is the discovery that very many people have a natural immunity to the virus, perhaps a genetic thing. Perhaps over half the population.Socky said:However if a vaccine is found, and particularly if it is a UK developed one, that changes everything.
It would explain why the epidemic fizzled out in China and Iran and perhaps London which can't be explained by herd immunity from infection. It would also explain the anecdotes of couples where one dies of the virus and the other apparently doesn't catch it in spite of their extreme closeness.
If true, and it fizzled out over the summer, it would be a game changer. Trump would be vindicated and re-elected. All countries would have massive financial hang-overs. Scientists would be discredited.
I suspect they have some of the highest (if not the highest) death rates in the world from Covid-19.
They're just covering it up to save face. They both have every national interest going for the USA to stay top of the league.1 -
That, and it'll take so bloody long that all the senior figures involved will have retired or died by the time it reports, rendering the findings largely irrelevant.kle4 said:
What was the last enquiry that generated more heat than light I wonder?Scott_xP said:Those betting on BoZo's departure date would do well to factor in the timing of the inevitable public inquiry
It surely must have happened, but I can already see the usual public flappery over who's on it, who leads it and what's its scope is, which is usually led by groups who've already made up their minds who is to blame (and thus implicitly arent truly focusing on seeing what emerges) which will delay it months. I look forward to whichever person leading it is attacked for being establishment and people being furious that relatives of the deceased are not involved in every single aspect of its planning or operation.
And itll be so complex and huge there'll probably be half a dozen different ones to magnify those issues.
It has to happen of course, but I expect it'll be an absolute nightmare even to get going.1 -
Disagree with the thread header, Starmer is unlikely to win a majority but he has a strong chance of becoming PM.
First only one party since WW2 has won a general election after 10 years in power, the Tories in 1992 and then only by a small majority. By the time of the next general election the Tories will have been in power for 14 years.
Second none of the minor parties will prop up the Tories if they lost their majority, the LDs will prefer Starmer to the Tories hard Brexit and even the DUP would prefer the whole UK to be in the EEA with Starmer than a border in the Irish Sea.
Third, Boris is the best election winner for the Tories since Thatcher and the idea replacing him if he becomes unpopular will resolve their problems is deluded. If he becomes unpopular it will be because Government policy is unpopular and replacing him with Sunak will not resolve that as Sunak will have been setting economic policy post Covid.
Nor will the Tories have the option of dropping an unpopular policy like Brexit on WTO terms as they did in 1990 when they replaced Thatcher with Major and Major dumped the poll tax. While a small majority of voters at large want an extension of the transition period, the vast majority of Tory and Leave voters oppose an extension of the transition period and welcome WTO terms.
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1261323480903147521?s=20
So getting rid of Boris for a soft Brexit, pro single market Tory leader say maybe Hunt or a converted Sunak would just lead to mass defections of Leavers from the Tories to the Brexit Party again and Leave them in the same position they were under May which was why they elected Boris in the first place0 -
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:
?Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
Perhaps my antennae aren't as developed as those of the class obsessed English, but to me Blair always gave the impression of suppressing his public school background, appeared anything but bumbling and his adoption of estuarine tones was the opposite of Johnson's Classical pretensions.1 -
Congratulations to you and MrsG. You’ve been married for just under two decades longer than I’ve been alive...Big_G_NorthWales said:
Thank you.SouthamObserver said:
Many congratulations. You’ve been married just over two weeks longer than I’ve been alive!!Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this day in 1964 I married my beloved at St Gerardine's Church in Lossiemouthmalcolmg said:
I for one hope it is not, the sooner we are independent the better.Black_Rook said:
I'd go further than that and say that speculatingmalcolmg said:
Sajid is a talentless no hoper, if he is the one then Starmer is a dead cert. Sunak looks the part at this point and if he continues as he is now he will be the top Tory by a mile.SouthamObserver said:I think David is right on this. The problem is who takes over. Sunak seems the obvious choice, but will he be once the tough decisions start to be made? The lack of talent in the Cabinet is truly something to behold. No wonder Sajid and Hunt are already on manouevres.
Hunt is about the only other one that sounds half competent.
Going to be tough for Tories to hang on once Brexit piles the crap on top of the virus expenditure , I would not bet someone else's money on Tories at this point.
about 2024 is essentially pointless.
Not only have we no idea what the economic situation will look like by that point, we don't even know if the country as presently constituted will still exist.
We have been blessed0 -
"Restrictions on gatheringsPhilip_Thompson said:
No you couldn't unless you reckon you can freely stand shoulder to shoulder with strangers and that there's no such thing as a 2 metre rule.TOPPING said:I've never been more aware of the BBC as a State Broadcaster than now. It's mobile front page is essentially a cut and paste from the Ministry of Information.
Even to the point of getting it presumably intentionally wrong over the new exercise rules. It says you can now exercise outside with someone from outside your household for the first time. Which is wrong. You always could.
7. During the emergency period, no person may participate in a gathering in a public place of more than two people except—
(a)where all the persons in the gathering are members of the same household,
(b)where the gathering is essential for work purposes,
(c)to attend a funeral,
etc..."
And the two metre rule is advice not the law.1 -
Great header Herdson. I agree, and have already been betting along these lines. Starmer is absurdly short in my opinion.0
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I expect there'll be pressure to come up with some broad points relatively quickly ie still years, but these things dont do what the general public often want anyway eg point the finger squarely at one person or simple problem, or exculpate a person or area totallyBlack_Rook said:
That, and it'll take so bloody long that all the senior figures involved will have retired or died by the time it reports, rendering the findings largely irrelevant.kle4 said:
What was the last enquiry that generated more heat than light I wonder?Scott_xP said:Those betting on BoZo's departure date would do well to factor in the timing of the inevitable public inquiry
It surely must have happened, but I can already see the usual public flappery over who's on it, who leads it and what's its scope is, which is usually led by groups who've already made up their minds who is to blame (and thus implicitly arent truly focusing on seeing what emerges) which will delay it months. I look forward to whichever person leading it is attacked for being establishment and people being furious that relatives of the deceased are not involved in every single aspect of its planning or operation.
And itll be so complex and huge there'll probably be half a dozen different ones to magnify those issues.
It has to happen of course, but I expect it'll be an absolute nightmare even to get going.
Damn life being all complicated.0 -
The English nationalists had him in fettes?Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:
?Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
Perhaps my antennae aren't as developed as those of the class obsessed English, but to me Blair always gave the impression of suppressing his public school background, appeared anything but bumbling and his adoption of estuarine tones was the opposite of Johnson's Classical pretensions.0 -
He was infected by Scottishness?Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:
?Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
Perhaps my antennae aren't as developed as those of the class obsessed English, but to me Blair always gave the impression of suppressing his public school background, appeared anything but bumbling and his adoption of estuarine tones was the opposite of Johnson's Classical pretensions.0 -
Painfully aware that you could exercise outside with someone from your own household? Mum make you go bagging munros with her when you wanted to read comics Malc?malcolmg said:
we have been painfully aware of that in Scotland for many yearsTOPPING said:I've never been more aware of the BBC as a State Broadcaster than now. It's mobile front page is essentially a cut and paste from the Ministry of Information.
Even to the point of getting it presumably intentionally wrong over the new exercise rules. It says you can now exercise outside with someone from outside your household for the first time. Which is wrong. You always could.
0 -
Thank youydoethur said:
Congratulations to you and MrsG. You’ve been married for just under two decades longer than I’ve been alive...Big_G_NorthWales said:
Thank you.SouthamObserver said:
Many congratulations. You’ve been married just over two weeks longer than I’ve been alive!!Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this day in 1964 I married my beloved at St Gerardine's Church in Lossiemouthmalcolmg said:
I for one hope it is not, the sooner we are independent the better.Black_Rook said:
I'd go further than that and say that speculatingmalcolmg said:
Sajid is a talentless no hoper, if he is the one then Starmer is a dead cert. Sunak looks the part at this point and if he continues as he is now he will be the top Tory by a mile.SouthamObserver said:I think David is right on this. The problem is who takes over. Sunak seems the obvious choice, but will he be once the tough decisions start to be made? The lack of talent in the Cabinet is truly something to behold. No wonder Sajid and Hunt are already on manouevres.
Hunt is about the only other one that sounds half competent.
Going to be tough for Tories to hang on once Brexit piles the crap on top of the virus expenditure , I would not bet someone else's money on Tories at this point.
about 2024 is essentially pointless.
Not only have we no idea what the economic situation will look like by that point, we don't even know if the country as presently constituted will still exist.
We have been blessed
Yes, we are oldies but happy ones0 -
Not all rules are laws.TOPPING said:
"Restrictions on gatheringsPhilip_Thompson said:
No you couldn't unless you reckon you can freely stand shoulder to shoulder with strangers and that there's no such thing as a 2 metre rule.TOPPING said:I've never been more aware of the BBC as a State Broadcaster than now. It's mobile front page is essentially a cut and paste from the Ministry of Information.
Even to the point of getting it presumably intentionally wrong over the new exercise rules. It says you can now exercise outside with someone from outside your household for the first time. Which is wrong. You always could.
7. During the emergency period, no person may participate in a gathering in a public place of more than two people except—
(a)where all the persons in the gathering are members of the same household,
(b)where the gathering is essential for work purposes,
(c)to attend a funeral,
etc..."
And the two metre rule is advice not the law.
The two metre rule is a rule. The only exercising once per day was a rule.0 -
The irony of modern statistical modelling is that the most reliable mortality figures by a distance will be in the West, where the outbreak while very serious and disruptive has not so far proved apocalyptic.BannedinnParis said:
On the Iran point, there's enough information and intelligence out there that strongly discredits the official stats they're producing.Casino_Royale said:
I wouldn't believe the propaganda from China or Iran.Barnesian said:
The other possibility is the discovery that very many people have a natural immunity to the virus, perhaps a genetic thing. Perhaps over half the population.Socky said:However if a vaccine is found, and particularly if it is a UK developed one, that changes everything.
It would explain why the epidemic fizzled out in China and Iran and perhaps London which can't be explained by herd immunity from infection. It would also explain the anecdotes of couples where one dies of the virus and the other apparently doesn't catch it in spite of their extreme closeness.
If true, and it fizzled out over the summer, it would be a game changer. Trump would be vindicated and re-elected. All countries would have massive financial hang-overs. Scientists would be discredited.
I suspect they have some of the highest (if not the highest) death rates in the world from Covid-19.
They're just covering it up to save face. They both have every national interest going for the USA to stay top of the league.
In South America and the Middle East (and possibly China) however, where it has clearly become both endemic and rampant, the corruption of local regimes means we cannot rely on the figures.1 -
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It was actually my mother who started calling him 'Rat Eyes'. I hadn't noticed until she said it.Casino_Royale said:
I think that's a fair summary.SouthamObserver said:
Not at all. Mrs Thatcher was exceptionally talented. She was incredibly effective and on top of her brief. In this Cabinet I think you can only say that of Gove, though Sunak offers promise. Osborne, too, from previous times.coach said:When people talk about talented politicians what does it mean?
I assume it means they agree with them
Hunt knows his stuff too. I don't agree with @Dura_Ace very often but I agree his rat eyes are a problem, though.1 -
iirc many of the Lansley changes have been quietly blurred via tinkering to the point they don't exist.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Commentators from both right and left are converging on Andrew Lansley's NHS reforms as having done immense harm to public health (PHE created; public health offloaded from NHS to local councils) and to the NHS generally. Even at the time, the Cabinet was said to be gobsmacked at what Lansley was up to, when he had promised only minor, administrative changes. It would be no great surprise to see a reversal and the end of PHE.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I expect any public enquiry will expose PHE as unfit for purpose and will have serious criticism of the NHS as an organisation. Furthermore Sage may well have questions to answerScott_xP said:Those betting on BoZo's departure date would do well to factor in the timing of the inevitable public inquiry
It is quite clear listening to Nicola that she has acted exactly as Boris until this last couple of weeks, especially in respect of care homes. She continually repeats she will only follow the advice so it is fair to assume in the Cobra meetings, both Boris and Nicola acted on that advise.
Boris is reported to have said in the 1922 meeting yesterday that PHE have questions to answer.
I know you have a bitter take on Boris but you may find that the public enquiries have a lot more to say about the public health bodies and the scientific advisors0 -
The report says: "...the party "effectively ignored" the biggest group of voters: those who were neither fervently remain or leave". A curious comment - it seemed to me that the vast majority were either fervently remain or fervently leave.Foxy said:Thornhill report makes painful reading. It would be hard to be otherwise after the 2019 GE
"The report notes that while Swinson was hampered by having less than five months between winning the party leadership and the election, her decision to immediately seek a new party chief executive undermined decision-making structures.
“This had the unintended consequence creating an ‘inner circle’ of advisers at arm’s length from the resources of the party machine, and put decision-making in the hands of an unaccountable group around the leader,” the report says. “It also severed some people from the roles and responsibilities they were employed to do, and led to the overpromotion of others.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/15/lib-dem-election-campaign-a-car-crash-says-partys-review0 -
Uniondivvie keeps the eccentricity very much under control most of the time, but it is one of his peculiar quirks to argue both that the British class system doesn't exist in Scotland and that English people are obsessed by class whereas Scots don't care. Trying to create some sort of fundamental dividing lines I suppose, if only in his head.ydoethur said:
The English nationalists had him in fettes?Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:
?Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
Perhaps my antennae aren't as developed as those of the class obsessed English, but to me Blair always gave the impression of suppressing his public school background, appeared anything but bumbling and his adoption of estuarine tones was the opposite of Johnson's Classical pretensions.1 -
Congratulations to you and your good lady BigG.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Thank youydoethur said:
Congratulations to you and MrsG. You’ve been married for just under two decades longer than I’ve been alive...Big_G_NorthWales said:
Thank you.SouthamObserver said:
Many congratulations. You’ve been married just over two weeks longer than I’ve been alive!!Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this day in 1964 I married my beloved at St Gerardine's Church in Lossiemouthmalcolmg said:
I for one hope it is not, the sooner we are independent the better.Black_Rook said:
I'd go further than that and say that speculatingmalcolmg said:
Sajid is a talentless no hoper, if he is the one then Starmer is a dead cert. Sunak looks the part at this point and if he continues as he is now he will be the top Tory by a mile.SouthamObserver said:I think David is right on this. The problem is who takes over. Sunak seems the obvious choice, but will he be once the tough decisions start to be made? The lack of talent in the Cabinet is truly something to behold. No wonder Sajid and Hunt are already on manouevres.
Hunt is about the only other one that sounds half competent.
Going to be tough for Tories to hang on once Brexit piles the crap on top of the virus expenditure , I would not bet someone else's money on Tories at this point.
about 2024 is essentially pointless.
Not only have we no idea what the economic situation will look like by that point, we don't even know if the country as presently constituted will still exist.
We have been blessed
Yes, we are oldies but happy ones0 -
Boris Johnson has a mandate for another 4.5 years, and an excellent chance of continuing in power after that, no matter the endless paeans to Mr. Boring on here.Scott_xP said:
BoZo's government will be defined by covid.BluestBlue said:optimism and self-belief can move mountains.
Pretending otherwise is not optimism, it's denial.
He's simply not going to bend over to the moaners and throw away any other aspirations he might have just because you want him to. You can post another 10,000 tedious tweets and he'll still be Prime Minister.
Wait, 10,000 might only take us to July, so I'd need to calibrate more precisely...3 -
I would agree that PHE, devolved equivalents and DoH have lots of questions to answer.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I expect any public enquiry will expose PHE as unfit for purpose and will have serious criticism of the NHS as an organisation. Furthermore Sage may well have questions to answerScott_xP said:Those betting on BoZo's departure date would do well to factor in the timing of the inevitable public inquiry
It is quite clear listening to Nicola that she has acted exactly as Boris until this last couple of weeks, especially in respect of care homes. She continually repeats she will only follow the advice so it is fair to assume in the Cobra meetings, both Boris and Nicola acted on that advise.
Boris is reported to have said in the 1922 meeting yesterday that PHE have questions to answer.
I know you have a bitter take on Boris but you may find that the public enquiries have a lot more to say about the public health bodies and the scientific advisors
One may wonder how the repeated reorganisations, defunding and movement of many staff and responsibilities to councils during a period of Local Authority budget cuts affected competence and capabilities. As someone who works closely with public health on chronic diseases, I have been a direct observer of chaotic reorganisations, particularly over the last 5 years.
Happy anniversary! Most marriages have a few rough spots, but the pleasure of a long relationship, and family that supports each other is truly to be treasured. Sadly too many do not have that admirable staying power.1 -
Winning elections is a skill, delivering your policy agenda effectively and running the economy well or foreign affairs well is also a skillcoach said:
According to the dictionarySouthamObserver said:
Not at all. Mrs Thatcher was exceptionally talented. She was incredibly effective and on top of her brief. In this Cabinet I think you can only say that of Gove, though Sunak offers promise. Osborne, too, from previous times.coach said:When people talk about talented politicians what does it mean?
I assume it means they agree with them
talent: natural aptitude or skill.
I don't think being a politician is down to natural aptitude, that's being a musician, artist or athlete. Politicians have an unswerving belief that they can make life better for people, and very few can or do0 -
That was my point. You could always under the law go outside with two people. The BBC is making out that it is a recent thing.Philip_Thompson said:
Not all rules are laws.TOPPING said:
"Restrictions on gatheringsPhilip_Thompson said:
No you couldn't unless you reckon you can freely stand shoulder to shoulder with strangers and that there's no such thing as a 2 metre rule.TOPPING said:I've never been more aware of the BBC as a State Broadcaster than now. It's mobile front page is essentially a cut and paste from the Ministry of Information.
Even to the point of getting it presumably intentionally wrong over the new exercise rules. It says you can now exercise outside with someone from outside your household for the first time. Which is wrong. You always could.
7. During the emergency period, no person may participate in a gathering in a public place of more than two people except—
(a)where all the persons in the gathering are members of the same household,
(b)where the gathering is essential for work purposes,
(c)to attend a funeral,
etc..."
And the two metre rule is advice not the law.
The two metre rule is a rule. The only exercising once per day was a rule.0 -
Oh dear , what a whinging loser.TGOHF666 said:0 -
Congratulations and best wishes for the day!Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this day in 1964 I married my beloved at St Gerardine's Church in Lossiemouthmalcolmg said:
I for one hope it is not, the sooner we are independent the better.Black_Rook said:
I'd go further than that and say that speculating about 2024 is essentially pointless. Not only have we no idea what the economic situation will look like by that point, we don't even know if the country as presently constituted will still exist.malcolmg said:
Sajid is a talentless no hoper, if he is the one then Starmer is a dead cert. Sunak looks the part at this point and if he continues as he is now he will be the top Tory by a mile. Hunt is about the only other one that sounds half competent.SouthamObserver said:I think David is right on this. The problem is who takes over. Sunak seems the obvious choice, but will he be once the tough decisions start to be made? The lack of talent in the Cabinet is truly something to behold. No wonder Sajid and Hunt are already on manouevres.
Going to be tough for Tories to hang on once Brexit piles the crap on top of the virus expenditure , I would not bet someone else's money on Tories at this point.1 -
There used to be a trio of stripper bars in the West Port in Edinburgh known colloquially as the pubic triangle, similarly Fettes, Edinburgh Academy and Stewart's Melville could be described as the public school triangle (though you can probably randomly chuck a triangle onto a map of Edinburgh and come up with 3 private schools). I'd venture that there was a good deal more Scottishness in the former than the latter.kle4 said:
He was infected by Scottishness?Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:
?Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
Perhaps my antennae aren't as developed as those of the class obsessed English, but to me Blair always gave the impression of suppressing his public school background, appeared anything but bumbling and his adoption of estuarine tones was the opposite of Johnson's Classical pretensions.0 -
No it wouldn't, every poll taken shows the vast majority of English voters oppose Scottish independencecoach said:
I'll second that, a vote in England would ensure Scottish independencemalcolmg said:
I for one hope it is not, the sooner we are independent the better.Black_Rook said:
I'd go further than that and say that speculating about 2024 is essentially pointless. Not only have we no idea what the economic situation will look like by that point, we don't even know if the country as presently constituted will still exist.malcolmg said:
Sajid is a talentless no hoper, if he is the one then Starmer is a dead cert. Sunak looks the part at this point and if he continues as he is now he will be the top Tory by a mile. Hunt is about the only other one that sounds half competent.SouthamObserver said:I think David is right on this. The problem is who takes over. Sunak seems the obvious choice, but will he be once the tough decisions start to be made? The lack of talent in the Cabinet is truly something to behold. No wonder Sajid and Hunt are already on manouevres.
Going to be tough for Tories to hang on once Brexit piles the crap on top of the virus expenditure , I would not bet someone else's money on Tories at this point.0 -
As with almost all reports, but in this case especially true, it is important that someone reads it so that the rest of us don't have to.Stocky said:
The report says: "...the party "effectively ignored" the biggest group of voters: those who were neither fervently remain or leave". A curious comment - it seemed to me that the vast majority were either fervently remain or fervently leave.Foxy said:Thornhill report makes painful reading. It would be hard to be otherwise after the 2019 GE
"The report notes that while Swinson was hampered by having less than five months between winning the party leadership and the election, her decision to immediately seek a new party chief executive undermined decision-making structures.
“This had the unintended consequence creating an ‘inner circle’ of advisers at arm’s length from the resources of the party machine, and put decision-making in the hands of an unaccountable group around the leader,” the report says. “It also severed some people from the roles and responsibilities they were employed to do, and led to the overpromotion of others.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/15/lib-dem-election-campaign-a-car-crash-says-partys-review
1 -
Are you finished, or do you have some more whining comments to post?BluestBlue said:
Boris Johnson has a mandate for another 4.5 years, and an excellent chance of continuing in power after that, no matter the endless paeans to Mr. Boring on here.Scott_xP said:
BoZo's government will be defined by covid.BluestBlue said:optimism and self-belief can move mountains.
Pretending otherwise is not optimism, it's denial.
He's simply not going to bend over to the moaners and throw away any other aspirations he might have just because you want him to. You can post another 10,000 tedious tweets and he'll still be Prime Minister.
Wait, 10,000 might only take us to July, so I'd need to calibrate more precisely...
If the Conservative Party’s position is so secure, you aren’t half rattled by people discussing Keir Starmer.0 -
The polling suggested that people felt more strongly attached to remain/leave than to parties. This led some to think that there was scope for a realignment, but when it came to it, remainers stuck with Labour and to a certain extent the Tories.Stocky said:Foxy said:Thornhill report makes painful reading. It would be hard to be otherwise after the 2019 GE
"The report notes that while Swinson was hampered by having less than five months between winning the party leadership and the election, her decision to immediately seek a new party chief executive undermined decision-making structures.
“This had the unintended consequence creating an ‘inner circle’ of advisers at arm’s length from the resources of the party machine, and put decision-making in the hands of an unaccountable group around the leader,” the report says. “It also severed some people from the roles and responsibilities they were employed to do, and led to the overpromotion of others.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/15/lib-dem-election-campaign-a-car-crash-says-partys-review
The report says: "...the party "effectively
ignored" the biggest group of voters: those who were neither fervently remain or leave". A curious comment - it seemed to me that the vast majority were either fervently remain or fervently leave.
I actually feel sorry for Jo Swinson. She did what she thought was right and didn’t sit on the fence.1 -
Yes and most take years and are then suppressed by the PM to hide their complicity as we saw recently with Tories and Russian report.kle4 said:
What was the last enquiry that generated more heat than light I wonder?Scott_xP said:Those betting on BoZo's departure date would do well to factor in the timing of the inevitable public inquiry
It surely must have happened, but I can already see the usual public flappery over who's on it, who leads it and what's its scope is, which is usually led by groups who've already made up their minds who is to blame (and thus implicitly arent truly focusing on seeing what emerges) which will delay it months. I look forward to whichever person leading it is attacked for being establishment and people being furious that relatives of the deceased are not involved in every single aspect of its planning or operation.
And itll be so complex and huge there'll probably be half a dozen different ones to magnify those issues.
It has to happen of course, but I expect it'll be an absolute nightmare even to get going.0 -
We are likely to be on WTO terms until the next general election, if that is going well Brexit will fade as an issue but that is a big ifCasino_Royale said:Excellent summary, David.
I'd also add that once Brexit is done and a semblance of normality restored to trading relationships (which might be 2022 or even 2023, and not necessarily 2021) then politics as usual will take over the Tory party.
The Leave/Remain split will be far less important than who has the answers on economic growth, the future of AI, security and China.
That makes the factional calculations in the Tory party far more fluid, so if Boris spends everything in his political bank account in the next 2-3 years then be very open-minded about who could succeed him.0 -
Care in the community and particularly Care Homes haver been mishandled since at least the 1990 Act.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You seem to think that Boris and the three first ministers are going to overrule advice and set their own course.Scott_xP said:
Advisors advise, ministers decide...Big_G_NorthWales said:I know you have a bitter take on Boris but you may find that the public enquiries have a lot more to say about the public health bodies and the scientific advisors
https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/status/1260665437790130177
Care homes across the nation are suffering the same so lets see the attacks on Nicola, Drakeford and Foster.
None of them acted differently1 -
Thank youLuckyguy1983 said:
Congratulations to you and your good lady BigG.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Thank youydoethur said:
Congratulations to you and MrsG. You’ve been married for just under two decades longer than I’ve been alive...Big_G_NorthWales said:
Thank you.SouthamObserver said:
Many congratulations. You’ve been married just over two weeks longer than I’ve been alive!!Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this day in 1964 I married my beloved at St Gerardine's Church in Lossiemouthmalcolmg said:
I for one hope it is not, the sooner we are independent the better.Black_Rook said:
I'd go further than that and say that speculatingmalcolmg said:
Sajid is a talentless no hoper, if he is the one then Starmer is a dead cert. Sunak looks the part at this point and if he continues as he is now he will be the top Tory by a mile.SouthamObserver said:I think David is right on this. The problem is who takes over. Sunak seems the obvious choice, but will he be once the tough decisions start to be made? The lack of talent in the Cabinet is truly something to behold. No wonder Sajid and Hunt are already on manouevres.
Hunt is about the only other one that sounds half competent.
Going to be tough for Tories to hang on once Brexit piles the crap on top of the virus expenditure , I would not bet someone else's money on Tories at this point.
about 2024 is essentially pointless.
Not only have we no idea what the economic situation will look like by that point, we don't even know if the country as presently constituted will still exist.
We have been blessed
Yes, we are oldies but happy ones0 -
I'm sorry if the idea of someone having the right of reply to your groupthink bothers you.Gallowgate said:
Are you finished, or do you have some more whining comments to post?BluestBlue said:
Boris Johnson has a mandate for another 4.5 years, and an excellent chance of continuing in power after that, no matter the endless paeans to Mr. Boring on here.Scott_xP said:
BoZo's government will be defined by covid.BluestBlue said:optimism and self-belief can move mountains.
Pretending otherwise is not optimism, it's denial.
He's simply not going to bend over to the moaners and throw away any other aspirations he might have just because you want him to. You can post another 10,000 tedious tweets and he'll still be Prime Minister.
Wait, 10,000 might only take us to July, so I'd need to calibrate more precisely...
If the Conservative Party’s position is so secure, you aren’t half rattled by people discussing Keir Starmer.0 -
The clue is the new action on care homes, including medical liaison and measures to stop staff moving between homes. It may have taken HMG far too long but, at least at first glance, this looks impressive.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You seem to think that Boris and the three first ministers are going to overrule advice and set their own course.Scott_xP said:
Advisors advise, ministers decide...Big_G_NorthWales said:I know you have a bitter take on Boris but you may find that the public enquiries have a lot more to say about the public health bodies and the scientific advisors
https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/status/1260665437790130177
Care homes across the nation are suffering the same so lets see the attacks on Nicola, Drakeford and Foster.
None of them acted differently
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/care-home-support-package-backed-by-600-million-to-help-reduce-coronavirus-infections1 -
Your cognitive dissonance is really something to behold. It's actually rather cute.Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
You seem to (genuinely) think class is a defining issue in England, but not in Scotland - a bastion of pure meritocratic equity. Within Scotland you also think the sectarianism is confined entirely to one side.
You're the Celtic supporter who thinks the racism, bigotry and violence is entirely attributable to Rangers supporters, whilst your lot are all sweetness and light.
The scary thing is (for someone who's obviously not stupid) you actually believe this.0 -
It was a classic two-part squeeze in the end. Libdems did have some success in vote total, though not seat total, let`s not forget.tlg86 said:
The polling suggested that people felt more strongly attached to remain/leave than to parties. This led some to think that there was scope for a realignment, but when it came to it, remainers stuck with Labour and to a certain extent the Tories.Stocky said:Foxy said:Thornhill report makes painful reading. It would be hard to be otherwise after the 2019 GE
"The report notes that while Swinson was hampered by having less than five months between winning the party leadership and the election, her decision to immediately seek a new party chief executive undermined decision-making structures.
“This had the unintended consequence creating an ‘inner circle’ of advisers at arm’s length from the resources of the party machine, and put decision-making in the hands of an unaccountable group around the leader,” the report says. “It also severed some people from the roles and responsibilities they were employed to do, and led to the overpromotion of others.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/15/lib-dem-election-campaign-a-car-crash-says-partys-review
The report says: "...the party "effectively
ignored" the biggest group of voters: those who were neither fervently remain or leave". A curious comment - it seemed to me that the vast majority were either fervently remain or fervently leave.
I actually feel sorry for Jo Swinson. She did what she thought was right and didn’t sit on the fence.0 -
Running Foreign Affairs well was not a notable skill of Boris'. Unless you include Jennifer ArcuriHYUFD said:
Winning elections is a skill, delivering your policy agenda effectively and running the economy well or foreign affairs well is also a skillcoach said:
According to the dictionarySouthamObserver said:
Not at all. Mrs Thatcher was exceptionally talented. She was incredibly effective and on top of her brief. In this Cabinet I think you can only say that of Gove, though Sunak offers promise. Osborne, too, from previous times.coach said:When people talk about talented politicians what does it mean?
I assume it means they agree with them
talent: natural aptitude or skill.
I don't think being a politician is down to natural aptitude, that's being a musician, artist or athlete. Politicians have an unswerving belief that they can make life better for people, and very few can or do0 -
Congratulations the BigGs on your wedding anniversaryBig_G_NorthWales said:
Thank youydoethur said:
Congratulations to you and MrsG. You’ve been married for just under two decades longer than I’ve been alive...Big_G_NorthWales said:
Thank you.SouthamObserver said:
Many congratulations. You’ve been married just over two weeks longer than I’ve been alive!!Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this day in 1964 I married my beloved at St Gerardine's Church in Lossiemouthmalcolmg said:
I for one hope it is not, the sooner we are independent the better.Black_Rook said:
I'd go further than that and say that speculatingmalcolmg said:
Sajid is a talentless no hoper, if he is the one then Starmer is a dead cert. Sunak looks the part at this point and if he continues as he is now he will be the top Tory by a mile.SouthamObserver said:I think David is right on this. The problem is who takes over. Sunak seems the obvious choice, but will he be once the tough decisions start to be made? The lack of talent in the Cabinet is truly something to behold. No wonder Sajid and Hunt are already on manouevres.
Hunt is about the only other one that sounds half competent.
Going to be tough for Tories to hang on once Brexit piles the crap on top of the virus expenditure , I would not bet someone else's money on Tories at this point.
about 2024 is essentially pointless.
Not only have we no idea what the economic situation will look like by that point, we don't even know if the country as presently constituted will still exist.
We have been blessed
Yes, we are oldies but happy ones0 -
This could be a fun game.Scott_xP said:
ALERT
Arrange for your butler to handle deliveries.
Let others take risks while you stay at home.
Eat a baby a day to keep the covid away.
Refer all rent holiday requests to the round filing cabinet.
Travel by private jet only.
ALERT2 -
Who could forget the long, tedious discussion on here on the status of Sir Keir's school and exactly what level his father worked at? See also Emily Thornberry's background for similar. Not weird at all.Luckyguy1983 said:
Uniondivvie keeps the eccentricity very much under control most of the time, but it is one of his peculiar quirks to argue both that the British class system doesn't exist in Scotland and that English people are obsessed by class whereas Scots don't care. Trying to create some sort of fundamental dividing lines I suppose, if only in his head.ydoethur said:
The English nationalists had him in fettes?Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:
?Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
Perhaps my antennae aren't as developed as those of the class obsessed English, but to me Blair always gave the impression of suppressing his public school background, appeared anything but bumbling and his adoption of estuarine tones was the opposite of Johnson's Classical pretensions.
I shall henceforth take you as my model when it comes to letting my eccentricities run free.0 -
I need to read the full report, but it sounds as if no attempt to paper over the cracks. Many lessons to learn.Stocky said:
The report says: "...the party "effectively ignored" the biggest group of voters: those who were neither fervently remain or leave". A curious comment - it seemed to me that the vast majority were either fervently remain or fervently leave.Foxy said:Thornhill report makes painful reading. It would be hard to be otherwise after the 2019 GE
"The report notes that while Swinson was hampered by having less than five months between winning the party leadership and the election, her decision to immediately seek a new party chief executive undermined decision-making structures.
“This had the unintended consequence creating an ‘inner circle’ of advisers at arm’s length from the resources of the party machine, and put decision-making in the hands of an unaccountable group around the leader,” the report says. “It also severed some people from the roles and responsibilities they were employed to do, and led to the overpromotion of others.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/15/lib-dem-election-campaign-a-car-crash-says-partys-review
The repeal A50 policy was viable when No Deal Brexit on Halloween was the threat, but needed a back up plan for when BoZo's "Oven Ready Deal" appeared. It was off putting to many Remainers, and all Leavers.
I have said all along that the LDs newly expanded membership risked becoming a single issue anti Brexit party. Now that it is out of the way, hopefully we can get back to potholes, bus routes and barcharts
0 -
Winning elections is.OldKingCole said:
Running Foreign Affairs well was not a notable skill of Boris'. Unless you include Jennifer ArcuriHYUFD said:
Winning elections is a skill, delivering your policy agenda effectively and running the economy well or foreign affairs well is also a skillcoach said:
According to the dictionarySouthamObserver said:
Not at all. Mrs Thatcher was exceptionally talented. She was incredibly effective and on top of her brief. In this Cabinet I think you can only say that of Gove, though Sunak offers promise. Osborne, too, from previous times.coach said:When people talk about talented politicians what does it mean?
I assume it means they agree with them
talent: natural aptitude or skill.
I don't think being a politician is down to natural aptitude, that's being a musician, artist or athlete. Politicians have an unswerving belief that they can make life better for people, and very few can or do
I would point out to David Herdson the last time the Tories ousted an election winning leader, when they toppled Thatcher in 1990, they won only one general election majority in the next 25 years1 -
Congratulations to Big G. Happy anniversary!0
-
Theuniondivvie said:
There used to be a trio of stripper bars in the West Port in Edinburgh known colloquially as the pubic triangle, similarly Fettes, Edinburgh Academy and Stewart's Melville could be described as the public school triangle (though you can probably randomly chuck a triangle onto a map of Edinburgh and come up with 3 private schools). I'd venture that there was a good deal more Scottishness in the former than the latter.kle4 said:
He was infected by Scottishness?Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:
?Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
Perhaps my antennae aren't as developed as those of the class obsessed English, but to me Blair always gave the impression of suppressing his public school background, appeared anything but bumbling and his adoption of estuarine tones was the opposite of Johnson's Classical pretensions.
So the Scots who are either posh, or class-aware aren't 'properly Scottish'. That makes more sense as a definition. I wonder what you'd do with these non-Scottish Scots in your brave new Scotland? Ship them all off to the a remote Hebridean Island maybe? Edinburgh would look funny empty.2 -
Thank you for your fair response and maybe more balanced consideration of the enormous issues is desirableFoxy said:
I would agree that PHE, devolved equivalents and DoH have lots of questions to answer.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I expect any public enquiry will expose PHE as unfit for purpose and will have serious criticism of the NHS as an organisation. Furthermore Sage may well have questions to answerScott_xP said:Those betting on BoZo's departure date would do well to factor in the timing of the inevitable public inquiry
It is quite clear listening to Nicola that she has acted exactly as Boris until this last couple of weeks, especially in respect of care homes. She continually repeats she will only follow the advice so it is fair to assume in the Cobra meetings, both Boris and Nicola acted on that advise.
Boris is reported to have said in the 1922 meeting yesterday that PHE have questions to answer.
I know you have a bitter take on Boris but you may find that the public enquiries have a lot more to say about the public health bodies and the scientific advisors
One may wonder how the repeated reorganisations, defunding and movement of many staff and responsibilities to councils during a period of Local Authority budget cuts affected competence and capabilities. As someone who works closely with public health on chronic diseases, I have been a direct observer of chaotic reorganisations, particularly over the last 5 years.
Happy anniversary! Most marriages have a few rough spots, but the pleasure of a long relationship, and family that supports each other is truly to be treasured. Sadly too many do not have that admirable staying power.
And thank you for your congratulations0 -
OldKingCole said:
Congratulations and best wishes for the day!Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this day in 1964 I married my beloved at St Gerardine's Church in Lossiemouthmalcolmg said:
I for one hope it is not, the sooner we are independent the better.Black_Rook said:
I'd go further than that and say that speculating about 2024 is essentially pointless. Not only have we no idea what the economic situation will look like by that point, we don't even know if the country as presently constituted will still exist.malcolmg said:
Sajid is a talentless no hoper, if he is the one then Starmer is a dead cert. Sunak looks the part at this point and if he continues as he is now he will be the top Tory by a mile. Hunt is about the only other one that sounds half competent.SouthamObserver said:I think David is right on this. The problem is who takes over. Sunak seems the obvious choice, but will he be once the tough decisions start to be made? The lack of talent in the Cabinet is truly something to behold. No wonder Sajid and Hunt are already on manouevres.
Going to be tough for Tories to hang on once Brexit piles the crap on top of the virus expenditure , I would not bet someone else's money on Tories at this point.OldKingCole said:
Congratulations and best wishes for the day!Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this day in 1964 I married my beloved at St Gerardine's Church in Lossiemouthmalcolmg said:
I for one hope it is not, the sooner we are independent the better.Black_Rook said:
I'd go further than that and say that speculating about 2024 is essentially pointless. Not only have we no idea what the economic situation will look like by that point, we don't even know if the country as presently constituted will still exist.malcolmg said:
Sajid is a talentless no hoper, if he is the one then Starmer is a dead cert. Sunak looks the part at this point and if he continues as he is now he will be the top Tory by a mile. Hunt is about the only other one that sounds half competent.SouthamObserver said:I think David is right on this. The problem is who takes over. Sunak seems the obvious choice, but will he be once the tough decisions start to be made? The lack of talent in the Cabinet is truly something to behold. No wonder Sajid and Hunt are already on manouevres.
Going to be tough for Tories to hang on once Brexit piles the crap on top of the virus expenditure , I would not bet someone else's money on Tories at this point.
Thank you OKCOldKingCole said:
Congratulations and best wishes for the day!Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this day in 1964 I married my beloved at St Gerardine's Church in Lossiemouthmalcolmg said:
I for one hope it is not, the sooner we are independent the better.Black_Rook said:
I'd go further than that and say that speculating about 2024 is essentially pointless. Not only have we no idea what the economic situation will look like by that point, we don't even know if the country as presently constituted will still exist.malcolmg said:
Sajid is a talentless no hoper, if he is the one then Starmer is a dead cert. Sunak looks the part at this point and if he continues as he is now he will be the top Tory by a mile. Hunt is about the only other one that sounds half competent.SouthamObserver said:I think David is right on this. The problem is who takes over. Sunak seems the obvious choice, but will he be once the tough decisions start to be made? The lack of talent in the Cabinet is truly something to behold. No wonder Sajid and Hunt are already on manouevres.
Going to be tough for Tories to hang on once Brexit piles the crap on top of the virus expenditure , I would not bet someone else's money on Tories at this point.
0 -
“The right of reply”. Hah. You’re the one whinging on that people are posting “10,000 tedious tweets”. Get over it. You won, stop being so insecure.BluestBlue said:
I'm sorry if the idea of someone having the right of reply to your groupthink bothers you.Gallowgate said:
Are you finished, or do you have some more whining comments to post?BluestBlue said:
Boris Johnson has a mandate for another 4.5 years, and an excellent chance of continuing in power after that, no matter the endless paeans to Mr. Boring on here.Scott_xP said:
BoZo's government will be defined by covid.BluestBlue said:optimism and self-belief can move mountains.
Pretending otherwise is not optimism, it's denial.
He's simply not going to bend over to the moaners and throw away any other aspirations he might have just because you want him to. You can post another 10,000 tedious tweets and he'll still be Prime Minister.
Wait, 10,000 might only take us to July, so I'd need to calibrate more precisely...
If the Conservative Party’s position is so secure, you aren’t half rattled by people discussing Keir Starmer.0 -
I don't see any inconsistency in the arguments that you attribute to Uniondivvie. As someone who has lived in both Scotland and England I would say that his position as you outline it is more true than untrue. Certainly, Scots are less class conscious than the English (it's not difficult) and Scotland is a more egalitarian country. Although Scots are less egalitarian than they like to think they are, as the persistent problems of poverty and ill health in parts of the central belt demonstrate.Luckyguy1983 said:
Uniondivvie keeps the eccentricity very much under control most of the time, but it is one of his peculiar quirks to argue both that the British class system doesn't exist in Scotland and that English people are obsessed by class whereas Scots don't care. Trying to create some sort of fundamental dividing lines I suppose, if only in his head.ydoethur said:
The English nationalists had him in fettes?Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:
?Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
Perhaps my antennae aren't as developed as those of the class obsessed English, but to me Blair always gave the impression of suppressing his public school background, appeared anything but bumbling and his adoption of estuarine tones was the opposite of Johnson's Classical pretensions.1 -
Unfortunately my Mother in Laws excellent care home in the Isle of Wight now has several cases. Worrying, and a desperately sad situation.DecrepiterJohnL said:
The clue is the new action on care homes, including medical liaison and measures to stop staff moving between homes. It may have taken HMG far too long but, at least at first glance, this looks impressive.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You seem to think that Boris and the three first ministers are going to overrule advice and set their own course.Scott_xP said:
Advisors advise, ministers decide...Big_G_NorthWales said:I know you have a bitter take on Boris but you may find that the public enquiries have a lot more to say about the public health bodies and the scientific advisors
https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/status/1260665437790130177
Care homes across the nation are suffering the same so lets see the attacks on Nicola, Drakeford and Foster.
None of them acted differently
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/care-home-support-package-backed-by-600-million-to-help-reduce-coronavirus-infections
One of the many awful things about Covid-19 is how people die without family around them. Even our hardy ICU consultants, who have made decisions to end intervention on a weekly basis for years find this distressing.0 -
The scary thing is you're tedious and cliched construction of what 'I am', and what it says about your Scotch insights.Casino_Royale said:
Your cognitive dissonance is really something to behold. It's actually rather cute.Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
You seem to (genuinely) think class is a defining issue in England, but not in Scotland - a bastion of pure meritocratic equity. Within Scotland you also think the sectarianism is confined entirely to one side.
You're the Celtic supporter who thinks the racism, bigotry and violence is entirely attributable to Rangers supporters, whilst your lot are all sweetness and light.
The scary thing is (for someone who's obviously not stupid) you actually believe this.
Celtic supporter - lol!
20 Scon MSPs - lofl!
SNP majority at Holyrood - oh shit.0 -
It's a good point. My experience of posh Scots makes Scotland look like a feudal bastion in comparison with down-to-earth, egalitarian England.Luckyguy1983 said:Theuniondivvie said:
There used to be a trio of stripper bars in the West Port in Edinburgh known colloquially as the pubic triangle, similarly Fettes, Edinburgh Academy and Stewart's Melville could be described as the public school triangle (though you can probably randomly chuck a triangle onto a map of Edinburgh and come up with 3 private schools). I'd venture that there was a good deal more Scottishness in the former than the latter.kle4 said:
He was infected by Scottishness?Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:
?Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
Perhaps my antennae aren't as developed as those of the class obsessed English, but to me Blair always gave the impression of suppressing his public school background, appeared anything but bumbling and his adoption of estuarine tones was the opposite of Johnson's Classical pretensions.
So the Scots who are either posh, or class-aware aren't 'properly Scottish'. That makes more sense as a definition. I wonder what you'd do with these non-Scottish Scots in your brave new Scotland? Ship them all off to the a remote Hebridean Island maybe? Edinburgh would look funny empty.1 -
The biggest mistake was supporting an early election rather than let the Tories stew while keep pushing for a second referendum on Boris's deal to resolve the stalemate. Several LibDem MPs were against an early election including Farron and Cable but were over-ruled with disastrous consequences. Decision driven by hubris.Stocky said:
The report says: "...the party "effectively ignored" the biggest group of voters: those who were neither fervently remain or leave". A curious comment - it seemed to me that the vast majority were either fervently remain or fervently leave.Foxy said:Thornhill report makes painful reading. It would be hard to be otherwise after the 2019 GE
"The report notes that while Swinson was hampered by having less than five months between winning the party leadership and the election, her decision to immediately seek a new party chief executive undermined decision-making structures.
“This had the unintended consequence creating an ‘inner circle’ of advisers at arm’s length from the resources of the party machine, and put decision-making in the hands of an unaccountable group around the leader,” the report says. “It also severed some people from the roles and responsibilities they were employed to do, and led to the overpromotion of others.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/15/lib-dem-election-campaign-a-car-crash-says-partys-review0 -
The market is not "who will be Prime Minister after the next general election". The market is "who will be next Prime Minister".HYUFD said:Disagree with the thread header, Starmer is unlikely to win a majority but he has a strong chance of becoming PM.
First only one party since WW2 has won a general election after 10 years in power, the Tories in 1992 and then only by a small majority. By the time of the next general election the Tories will have been in power for 14 years.
Second none of the minor parties will prop up the Tories if they lost their majority, the LDs will prefer Starmer to the Tories hard Brexit and even the DUP would prefer the whole UK to be in the EEA with Starmer than a border in the Irish Sea.
Third, Boris is the best election winner for the Tories since Thatcher and the idea replacing him if he becomes unpopular will resolve their problems is deluded. If he becomes unpopular it will be because Government policy is unpopular and replacing him with Sunak will not resolve that as Sunak will have been setting economic policy post Covid.
Nor will the Tories have the option of dropping an unpopular policy like Brexit on WTO terms as they did in 1990 when they replaced Thatcher with Major and Major dumped the poll tax. While a small majority of voters at large want an extension of the transition period, the vast majority of Tory and Leave voters oppose an extension of the transition period and welcome WTO terms.
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1261323480903147521?s=20
So getting rid of Boris for a soft Brexit, pro single market Tory leader say maybe Hunt or a converted Sunak would just lead to mass defections of Leavers from the Tories to the Brexit Party again and Leave them in the same position they were under May which was why they elected Boris in the first place
So, if Johnson becomes unpopular and is replaced as leader of the Conservative and Unionist Party, and Prime Minister, then his replacement as PM will be the winner in this betting market and they will certainly be a Conservative MP rather than Starmer.
In order for Starmer to become the next Prime Minister you have to believe that Johnson will not only lose the next election, but be allowed to lose the next election rather than be replaced, and would want to fight a losing battle, rather than stepping aside.0 -
Without these fantasies his entire belief system would collapse under the weight of its own contradictions, so it's no surprise he keeps them well tended.Luckyguy1983 said:
Uniondivvie keeps the eccentricity very much under control most of the time, but it is one of his peculiar quirks to argue both that the British class system doesn't exist in Scotland and that English people are obsessed by class whereas Scots don't care. Trying to create some sort of fundamental dividing lines I suppose, if only in his head.ydoethur said:
The English nationalists had him in fettes?Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:
?Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
Perhaps my antennae aren't as developed as those of the class obsessed English, but to me Blair always gave the impression of suppressing his public school background, appeared anything but bumbling and his adoption of estuarine tones was the opposite of Johnson's Classical pretensions.0 -
@HYUFD still doesn’t get that the general public doesn’t understand what “WTO terms” actually means, and who can blame them.1
-
She got what she really really deserved, hoist by her own petard. An absolute numpty promoted well beyond her competence level who thought she was PM material, what a hoot it was seeing her getting whipped by someone who was an absolute beginner.Stocky said:
It was a classic two-part squeeze in the end. Libdems did have some success in vote total, though not seat total, let`s not forget.tlg86 said:
The polling suggested that people felt more strongly attached to remain/leave than to parties. This led some to think that there was scope for a realignment, but when it came to it, remainers stuck with Labour and to a certain extent the Tories.Stocky said:Foxy said:Thornhill report makes painful reading. It would be hard to be otherwise after the 2019 GE
"The report notes that while Swinson was hampered by having less than five months between winning the party leadership and the election, her decision to immediately seek a new party chief executive undermined decision-making structures.
“This had the unintended consequence creating an ‘inner circle’ of advisers at arm’s length from the resources of the party machine, and put decision-making in the hands of an unaccountable group around the leader,” the report says. “It also severed some people from the roles and responsibilities they were employed to do, and led to the overpromotion of others.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/15/lib-dem-election-campaign-a-car-crash-says-partys-review
The report says: "...the party "effectively
ignored" the biggest group of voters: those who were neither fervently remain or leave". A curious comment - it seemed to me that the vast majority were either fervently remain or fervently leave.
I actually feel sorry for Jo Swinson. She did what she thought was right and didn’t sit on the fence.0 -
It is indeed.HYUFD said:
We are likely to be on WTO terms until the next general election, if that is going well Brexit will fade as an issue but that is a big ifCasino_Royale said:Excellent summary, David.
I'd also add that once Brexit is done and a semblance of normality restored to trading relationships (which might be 2022 or even 2023, and not necessarily 2021) then politics as usual will take over the Tory party.
The Leave/Remain split will be far less important than who has the answers on economic growth, the future of AI, security and China.
That makes the factional calculations in the Tory party far more fluid, so if Boris spends everything in his political bank account in the next 2-3 years then be very open-minded about who could succeed him.1 -
No, I'd say the report had that about right. On the Brexit issue, I think you could put 2019 voters into a number of different broad groups, as follows:Stocky said:
The report says: "...the party "effectively ignored" the biggest group of voters: those who were neither fervently remain or leave". A curious comment - it seemed to me that the vast majority were either fervently remain or fervently leave.Foxy said:Thornhill report makes painful reading. It would be hard to be otherwise after the 2019 GE
"The report notes that while Swinson was hampered by having less than five months between winning the party leadership and the election, her decision to immediately seek a new party chief executive undermined decision-making structures.
“This had the unintended consequence creating an ‘inner circle’ of advisers at arm’s length from the resources of the party machine, and put decision-making in the hands of an unaccountable group around the leader,” the report says. “It also severed some people from the roles and responsibilities they were employed to do, and led to the overpromotion of others.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/15/lib-dem-election-campaign-a-car-crash-says-partys-review
*Remainiacs (determined to stop Brexit at all costs)
*Brexit Ultras (determined to go ahead at all costs)
*Satisfied Leavers (pleased with the result and now want to have it implemented and move on)
*Disappointed Remainers (would rather it went the other way but now want to have it implemented and move on)
*Converts (voted Remain but now supportive of Brexit and wish to see it implemented)
*U-turners (voted Leave but would now like a second referendum so they can change their minds)
*The Unconcerned (don't care one way or the other)
*The Oblivious (I don't really understand much about this Brexit thing/What is this Brexit thing anyway?)
I'd go as far as to venture that the Satisfied Leavers, Disappointed Remainers and Unconcerned between them constituted the bulk of the electorate. Labour would've had a bit of leverage amongst the Disappointed Remainer segment, insofar as many of them might've hoped for a closer relationship with the EU under a Labour Government than under a Tory one, but we also have to bear in mind that Brexit would not have been the main consideration for many of these more middling voters. There was also the Corbyn factor to consider, and of course both the rules of the game and many of the players were different in Scotland.
The Liberal Democrats, of course, ignored everyone except those who were "fervently remain," which is how they ended up with not very much more than their small core habit vote, plus that portion of the Remainiac tendency for whom the Lib Dems appeared to be the best hope of stopping the Conservatives in their particular constituency. It's small wonder that they did so very badly.0 -
I believe you still think of Scots as 'they' dontcha? Always good to get the anthropological view of those who deign to live among us.Luckyguy1983 said:Theuniondivvie said:
There used to be a trio of stripper bars in the West Port in Edinburgh known colloquially as the pubic triangle, similarly Fettes, Edinburgh Academy and Stewart's Melville could be described as the public school triangle (though you can probably randomly chuck a triangle onto a map of Edinburgh and come up with 3 private schools). I'd venture that there was a good deal more Scottishness in the former than the latter.kle4 said:
He was infected by Scottishness?Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:
?Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
Perhaps my antennae aren't as developed as those of the class obsessed English, but to me Blair always gave the impression of suppressing his public school background, appeared anything but bumbling and his adoption of estuarine tones was the opposite of Johnson's Classical pretensions.
So the Scots who are either posh, or class-aware aren't 'properly Scottish'. That makes more sense as a definition. I wonder what you'd do with these non-Scottish Scots in your brave new Scotland? Ship them all off to the a remote Hebridean Island maybe? Edinburgh would look funny empty.0 -
A breath of fresh air to see an honest informed opinion on Scotland from outside on here. The level of knowledge on Scotland from many on here is breathtaking, yet they believe they are experts and can pontificate absolute rubbish.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I don't see any inconsistency in the arguments that you attribute to Uniondivvie. As someone who has lived in both Scotland and England I would say that his position as you outline it is more true than untrue. Certainly, Scots are less class conscious than the English (it's not difficult) and Scotland is a more egalitarian country. Although Scots are less egalitarian than they like to think they are, as the persistent problems of poverty and ill health in parts of the central belt demonstrate.Luckyguy1983 said:
Uniondivvie keeps the eccentricity very much under control most of the time, but it is one of his peculiar quirks to argue both that the British class system doesn't exist in Scotland and that English people are obsessed by class whereas Scots don't care. Trying to create some sort of fundamental dividing lines I suppose, if only in his head.ydoethur said:
The English nationalists had him in fettes?Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:
?Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
Perhaps my antennae aren't as developed as those of the class obsessed English, but to me Blair always gave the impression of suppressing his public school background, appeared anything but bumbling and his adoption of estuarine tones was the opposite of Johnson's Classical pretensions.0 -
I can spot at least two errors in that 'quick-witted' response of yours there.Theuniondivvie said:
The scary thing is you're tedious and cliched construction of what 'I am', and what it says about your Scotch insights.Casino_Royale said:
Your cognitive dissonance is really something to behold. It's actually rather cute.Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
You seem to (genuinely) think class is a defining issue in England, but not in Scotland - a bastion of pure meritocratic equity. Within Scotland you also think the sectarianism is confined entirely to one side.
You're the Celtic supporter who thinks the racism, bigotry and violence is entirely attributable to Rangers supporters, whilst your lot are all sweetness and light.
The scary thing is (for someone who's obviously not stupid) you actually believe this.
Celtic supporter - lol!
20 Scon MSPs - lofl!
SNP majority at Holyrood - oh shit.
Rattled.0 -
Scott has almost certainly re-posted 10,000 tedious tweets on this website - it's a statement of fact that should embarrass even those people who agree with them. I've complained about them perhaps half-a-dozen times, and yet I'm the one you're telling to shut up. Quite revealing.Gallowgate said:
“The right of reply”. Hah. You’re the one whinging on that people are posting “10,000 tedious tweets”. Get over it. You won, stop being so insecure.BluestBlue said:
I'm sorry if the idea of someone having the right of reply to your groupthink bothers you.Gallowgate said:
Are you finished, or do you have some more whining comments to post?BluestBlue said:
Boris Johnson has a mandate for another 4.5 years, and an excellent chance of continuing in power after that, no matter the endless paeans to Mr. Boring on here.Scott_xP said:
BoZo's government will be defined by covid.BluestBlue said:optimism and self-belief can move mountains.
Pretending otherwise is not optimism, it's denial.
He's simply not going to bend over to the moaners and throw away any other aspirations he might have just because you want him to. You can post another 10,000 tedious tweets and he'll still be Prime Minister.
Wait, 10,000 might only take us to July, so I'd need to calibrate more precisely...
If the Conservative Party’s position is so secure, you aren’t half rattled by people discussing Keir Starmer.0 -
It should be noted that it was Corbyn’s reversal on this that was crucial though. Admittedly that came after the Liberal Democrats and SNP had already made the switch.Barnesian said:
The biggest mistake was supporting an early election rather than let the Tories stew while keep pushing for a second referendum on Boris's deal to resolve the stalemate. Several LibDem MPs were against an early election including Farron and Cable but were over-ruled with disastrous consequences. Decision driven by hubris.Stocky said:
The report says: "...the party "effectively ignored" the biggest group of voters: those who were neither fervently remain or leave". A curious comment - it seemed to me that the vast majority were either fervently remain or fervently leave.Foxy said:Thornhill report makes painful reading. It would be hard to be otherwise after the 2019 GE
"The report notes that while Swinson was hampered by having less than five months between winning the party leadership and the election, her decision to immediately seek a new party chief executive undermined decision-making structures.
“This had the unintended consequence creating an ‘inner circle’ of advisers at arm’s length from the resources of the party machine, and put decision-making in the hands of an unaccountable group around the leader,” the report says. “It also severed some people from the roles and responsibilities they were employed to do, and led to the overpromotion of others.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/15/lib-dem-election-campaign-a-car-crash-says-partys-review0 -
I've read the 61 page report.Foxy said:
I need to read the full report, but it sounds as if no attempt to paper over the cracks. Many lessons to learn.Stocky said:
The report says: "...the party "effectively ignored" the biggest group of voters: those who were neither fervently remain or leave". A curious comment - it seemed to me that the vast majority were either fervently remain or fervently leave.Foxy said:Thornhill report makes painful reading. It would be hard to be otherwise after the 2019 GE
"The report notes that while Swinson was hampered by having less than five months between winning the party leadership and the election, her decision to immediately seek a new party chief executive undermined decision-making structures.
“This had the unintended consequence creating an ‘inner circle’ of advisers at arm’s length from the resources of the party machine, and put decision-making in the hands of an unaccountable group around the leader,” the report says. “It also severed some people from the roles and responsibilities they were employed to do, and led to the overpromotion of others.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/15/lib-dem-election-campaign-a-car-crash-says-partys-review
The repeal A50 policy was viable when No Deal Brexit on Halloween was the threat, but needed a back up plan for when BoZo's "Oven Ready Deal" appeared. It was off putting to many Remainers, and all Leavers.
I have said all along that the LDs newly expanded membership risked becoming a single issue anti Brexit party. Now that it is out of the way, hopefully we can get back to potholes, bus routes and barcharts
In summary
1.New leader to develop a clear vision of what the LibDems are for
2. Improve decision making (eg confusion between authority of Leader, President and CEO; Federal Board has 41 members)
3. Improve campaigning.
0 -
Thanks for Header. It's sound reasoning. I am fortunate enough to be long of Starmer for next PM at 4.6. I will now take this advice and lay him at 2.7. Smug City.0
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Quite. At my first employer in Scotland the office staff spoke quite unironically about 'undesirables' in their local area. I know several lovely Scots obsessed with name-dropping when they might have run into an Earl at some committee or event (at least one of whom is a vocal SNP supporter - which doesn't stop him going weak at the knees at a sniff of the tweedy upper crust). I can't see a shred of evidence that Scots are any less aware of or interested in social class, though perhaps it is more so on the West Coast where I've spent less time.BluestBlue said:
It's a good point. My experience of posh Scots makes Scotland look like a feudal bastion in comparison with down-to-earth, egalitarian England.Luckyguy1983 said:Theuniondivvie said:
There used to be a trio of stripper bars in the West Port in Edinburgh known colloquially as the pubic triangle, similarly Fettes, Edinburgh Academy and Stewart's Melville could be described as the public school triangle (though you can probably randomly chuck a triangle onto a map of Edinburgh and come up with 3 private schools). I'd venture that there was a good deal more Scottishness in the former than the latter.kle4 said:
He was infected by Scottishness?Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:
?Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
Perhaps my antennae aren't as developed as those of the class obsessed English, but to me Blair always gave the impression of suppressing his public school background, appeared anything but bumbling and his adoption of estuarine tones was the opposite of Johnson's Classical pretensions.
So the Scots who are either posh, or class-aware aren't 'properly Scottish'. That makes more sense as a definition. I wonder what you'd do with these non-Scottish Scots in your brave new Scotland? Ship them all off to the a remote Hebridean Island maybe? Edinburgh would look funny empty.0 -
The Lib Dems need to make a deal with Keir Starmer, in return for the implementation of STV. Simple as that.0
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Lucky , no matter how much you protest it is plain to anyone that Scotland is far less class conscious than England. We have our share , much smaller, of hoorays but in general people don't have the doff your cap/they are better than me attitude that you see down south.Luckyguy1983 said:Theuniondivvie said:
There used to be a trio of stripper bars in the West Port in Edinburgh known colloquially as the pubic triangle, similarly Fettes, Edinburgh Academy and Stewart's Melville could be described as the public school triangle (though you can probably randomly chuck a triangle onto a map of Edinburgh and come up with 3 private schools). I'd venture that there was a good deal more Scottishness in the former than the latter.kle4 said:
He was infected by Scottishness?Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:
?Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
Perhaps my antennae aren't as developed as those of the class obsessed English, but to me Blair always gave the impression of suppressing his public school background, appeared anything but bumbling and his adoption of estuarine tones was the opposite of Johnson's Classical pretensions.
So the Scots who are either posh, or class-aware aren't 'properly Scottish'. That makes more sense as a definition. I wonder what you'd do with these non-Scottish Scots in your brave new Scotland? Ship them all off to the a remote Hebridean Island maybe? Edinburgh would look funny empty.0 -
Leave voters do and they strongly prefer it to staying in an indefinite transition period and the single market and customs unionGallowgate said:@HYUFD still doesn’t get that the general public doesn’t understand what “WTO terms” actually means, and who can blame them.
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1261323480903147521?s=20
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Possibly one more majority than they would have won if they'd stuck with Thatcher for the 1992 general election.HYUFD said:
Winning elections is.OldKingCole said:
Running Foreign Affairs well was not a notable skill of Boris'. Unless you include Jennifer ArcuriHYUFD said:
Winning elections is a skill, delivering your policy agenda effectively and running the economy well or foreign affairs well is also a skillcoach said:
According to the dictionarySouthamObserver said:
Not at all. Mrs Thatcher was exceptionally talented. She was incredibly effective and on top of her brief. In this Cabinet I think you can only say that of Gove, though Sunak offers promise. Osborne, too, from previous times.coach said:When people talk about talented politicians what does it mean?
I assume it means they agree with them
talent: natural aptitude or skill.
I don't think being a politician is down to natural aptitude, that's being a musician, artist or athlete. Politicians have an unswerving belief that they can make life better for people, and very few can or do
I would point out to David Herdson the last time the Tories ousted an election winning leader, when they toppled Thatcher in 1990, they won only one general election majority in the next 25 years
If Johnson becomes personally unpopular, and Brexit is done, then Conservative MPs have no need for Johnson.0 -
I have lived in Scotland for nearly 10 years, and I can tell you in my experience his argument is utter tripe. Again, perhaps your experience has been very different to mine.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I don't see any inconsistency in the arguments that you attribute to Uniondivvie. As someone who has lived in both Scotland and England I would say that his position as you outline it is more true than untrue. Certainly, Scots are less class conscious than the English (it's not difficult) and Scotland is a more egalitarian country. Although Scots are less egalitarian than they like to think they are, as the persistent problems of poverty and ill health in parts of the central belt demonstrate.Luckyguy1983 said:
Uniondivvie keeps the eccentricity very much under control most of the time, but it is one of his peculiar quirks to argue both that the British class system doesn't exist in Scotland and that English people are obsessed by class whereas Scots don't care. Trying to create some sort of fundamental dividing lines I suppose, if only in his head.ydoethur said:
The English nationalists had him in fettes?Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:
?Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
Perhaps my antennae aren't as developed as those of the class obsessed English, but to me Blair always gave the impression of suppressing his public school background, appeared anything but bumbling and his adoption of estuarine tones was the opposite of Johnson's Classical pretensions.0 -
You were born nine months after the Great Train Robbery. Have you checked under the floorboards for huge bundles of used tenners?SouthamObserver said:
Many congratulations. You’ve been married just over two weeks longer than I’ve been alive!!Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this day in 1964 I married my beloved at St Gerardine's Church in Lossiemouthmalcolmg said:
I for one hope it is not, the sooner we are independent the better.Black_Rook said:
I'd go further than that and say that speculatingmalcolmg said:
Sajid is a talentless no hoper, if he is the one then Starmer is a dead cert. Sunak looks the part at this point and if he continues as he is now he will be the top Tory by a mile.SouthamObserver said:I think David is right on this. The problem is who takes over. Sunak seems the obvious choice, but will he be once the tough decisions start to be made? The lack of talent in the Cabinet is truly something to behold. No wonder Sajid and Hunt are already on manouevres.
Hunt is about the only other one that sounds half competent.
Going to be tough for Tories to hang on once Brexit piles the crap on top of the virus expenditure , I would not bet someone else's money on Tories at this point.
about 2024 is essentially pointless.
Not only have we no idea what the economic situation will look like by that point, we don't even know if the country as presently constituted will still exist.0 -
You’re missing the point mate. The general public does not understand what “WTO terms” actually means, therefore the polling on it is irrelevant.HYUFD said:
Leave voters do and they strongly prefer it to staying in an indefinite transition period and the single market and customs unionGallowgate said:@HYUFD still doesn’t get that the general public doesn’t understand what “WTO terms” actually means, and who can blame them.
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1261323480903147521?s=20
It’s like asking the public if they prefer “aghiawigoiwag” or “agjawgjawgja”.0 -
The only point in replacing Boris, the best Tory election winner since Thatcher, would be if WTO terms with Boris becomes as unpopular as the poll tax with Thatcher was when she was replaced by Major in 1990.LostPassword said:
The market is not "who will be Prime Minister after the next general election". The market is "who will be next Prime Minister".HYUFD said:Disagree with the thread header, Starmer is unlikely to win a majority but he has a strong chance of becoming PM.
First only one party since WW2 has won a general election after 10 years in power, the Tories in 1992 and then only by a small majority. By the time of the next general election the Tories will have been in power for 14 years.
Second none of the minor parties will prop up the Tories if they lost their majority, the LDs will prefer Starmer to the Tories hard Brexit and even the DUP would prefer the whole UK to be in the EEA with Starmer than a border in the Irish Sea.
Third, Boris is the best election winner for the Tories since Thatcher and the idea replacing him if he becomes unpopular will resolve their problems is deluded. If he becomes unpopular it will be because Government policy is unpopular and replacing him with Sunak will not resolve that as Sunak will have been setting economic policy post Covid.
Nor will the Tories have the option of dropping an unpopular policy like Brexit on WTO terms as they did in 1990 when they replaced Thatcher with Major and Major dumped the poll tax. While a small majority of voters at large want an extension of the transition period, the vast majority of Tory and Leave voters oppose an extension of the transition period and welcome WTO terms.
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1261323480903147521?s=20
So getting rid of Boris for a soft Brexit, pro single market Tory leader say maybe Hunt or a converted Sunak would just lead to mass defections of Leavers from the Tories to the Brexit Party again and Leave them in the same position they were under May which was why they elected Boris in the first place
So, if Johnson becomes unpopular and is replaced as leader of the Conservative and Unionist Party, and Prime Minister, then his replacement as PM will be the winner in this betting market and they will certainly be a Conservative MP rather than Starmer.
In order for Starmer to become the next Prime Minister you have to believe that Johnson will not only lose the next election, but be allowed to lose the next election rather than be replaced, and would want to fight a losing battle, rather than stepping aside.
However given over 60% of Tory voters oppose extending the transition period, replacing Boris with say Hunt or Sunak on a pro single market policy would see mass defections of Leavers from the Tories to the Brexit Party again.
Hard Brexit and WTO terms is far more popular with Tory voters than the poll tax ever was0 -
The LibDems and SNP forced his hand. He couldn't credibly resist it after persistently calling for an election.ydoethur said:
It should be noted that it was Corbyn’s reversal on this that was crucial though. Admittedly that came after the Liberal Democrats and SNP had already made the switch.Barnesian said:
The biggest mistake was supporting an early election rather than let the Tories stew while keep pushing for a second referendum on Boris's deal to resolve the stalemate. Several LibDem MPs were against an early election including Farron and Cable but were over-ruled with disastrous consequences. Decision driven by hubris.Stocky said:
The report says: "...the party "effectively ignored" the biggest group of voters: those who were neither fervently remain or leave". A curious comment - it seemed to me that the vast majority were either fervently remain or fervently leave.Foxy said:Thornhill report makes painful reading. It would be hard to be otherwise after the 2019 GE
"The report notes that while Swinson was hampered by having less than five months between winning the party leadership and the election, her decision to immediately seek a new party chief executive undermined decision-making structures.
“This had the unintended consequence creating an ‘inner circle’ of advisers at arm’s length from the resources of the party machine, and put decision-making in the hands of an unaccountable group around the leader,” the report says. “It also severed some people from the roles and responsibilities they were employed to do, and led to the overpromotion of others.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/15/lib-dem-election-campaign-a-car-crash-says-partys-review0 -
Please do.Theuniondivvie said:
Who could forget the long, tedious discussion on here on the status of Sir Keir's school and exactly what level his father worked at? See also Emily Thornberry's background for similar. Not weird at all.Luckyguy1983 said:
Uniondivvie keeps the eccentricity very much under control most of the time, but it is one of his peculiar quirks to argue both that the British class system doesn't exist in Scotland and that English people are obsessed by class whereas Scots don't care. Trying to create some sort of fundamental dividing lines I suppose, if only in his head.ydoethur said:
The English nationalists had him in fettes?Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:
?Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
Perhaps my antennae aren't as developed as those of the class obsessed English, but to me Blair always gave the impression of suppressing his public school background, appeared anything but bumbling and his adoption of estuarine tones was the opposite of Johnson's Classical pretensions.
I shall henceforth take you as my model when it comes to letting my eccentricities run free.
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Which Bundesliga team are we all adopting? I am going with FC St Pauli for their impeccable left wing and anti-fash credentials. Even though they are having a shit year.1
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LOLCasino_Royale said:
I can spot at least two errors in that 'quick-witted' response of yours there.Theuniondivvie said:
The scary thing is you're tedious and cliched construction of what 'I am', and what it says about your Scotch insights.Casino_Royale said:
Your cognitive dissonance is really something to behold. It's actually rather cute.Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure that would be a killer point if I could work out what it was.Casino_Royale said:
Is that the same Tony Blair that went to public school in... Scotland?Theuniondivvie said:Fishing said:
It got Blair three election victories, didn't it?Foxy said:DH is right that the Tory party is pretty swift to defenestrate a leader looking likely to lose an election.
I have never been a Boris fan. He has always looked the bumbling amateur public school boy who bullshits his way through life.
And being thoughtful oiks got Brown and May precisely nowhere, after some initial successes.
You could easily make a case that the country likes being led by people who make them feel more optimistic, especially when the circumstances don't justify it. For my money, we've had two leaders like that in the past two decades (Blair and Johnson), and two who clearly weren't (Brown and May). Cameron is somewhere between, hence his mediocre but not disastrous electoral record.
You seem to (genuinely) think class is a defining issue in England, but not in Scotland - a bastion of pure meritocratic equity. Within Scotland you also think the sectarianism is confined entirely to one side.
You're the Celtic supporter who thinks the racism, bigotry and violence is entirely attributable to Rangers supporters, whilst your lot are all sweetness and light.
The scary thing is (for someone who's obviously not stupid) you actually believe this.
Celtic supporter - lol!
20 Scon MSPs - lofl!
SNP majority at Holyrood - oh shit.
Rattled. how many terrors in that "half witted" response, wobbling like a jelly. 0 -
Schalke, as Gelsenkirchen is twinned with Newcastle upon Tyne after all.Dura_Ace said:Which Bundesliga team are we all adopting? I am going with FC St Pauli for their impeccable left wing and anti-fash credentials. Even though they are having a shit year.
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I’m baffled. You used the word ‘credibly’ and ‘Corbyn’ in the same sentence there.Barnesian said:
The LibDems and SNP forced his hand. He couldn't credibly resist it after persistently calling for an election.ydoethur said:
It should be noted that it was Corbyn’s reversal on this that was crucial though. Admittedly that came after the Liberal Democrats and SNP had already made the switch.Barnesian said:
The biggest mistake was supporting an early election rather than let the Tories stew while keep pushing for a second referendum on Boris's deal to resolve the stalemate. Several LibDem MPs were against an early election including Farron and Cable but were over-ruled with disastrous consequences. Decision driven by hubris.Stocky said:
The report says: "...the party "effectively ignored" the biggest group of voters: those who were neither fervently remain or leave". A curious comment - it seemed to me that the vast majority were either fervently remain or fervently leave.Foxy said:Thornhill report makes painful reading. It would be hard to be otherwise after the 2019 GE
"The report notes that while Swinson was hampered by having less than five months between winning the party leadership and the election, her decision to immediately seek a new party chief executive undermined decision-making structures.
“This had the unintended consequence creating an ‘inner circle’ of advisers at arm’s length from the resources of the party machine, and put decision-making in the hands of an unaccountable group around the leader,” the report says. “It also severed some people from the roles and responsibilities they were employed to do, and led to the overpromotion of others.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/15/lib-dem-election-campaign-a-car-crash-says-partys-review0
