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  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,395
    OllyT said:

    Methinks you are protesting too much, Starmer is going to look good in one to ones with bumbling Doris and the Tories know it. Look how the leadership favourable have shifted after just a couple of encounters. We are going to need a damn site more than than Doris's usually waffly optimism once this is over.
    I didn't watch PMQs so I have no idea how either performed, but if someone refers to one of the participants as 'continuity Corbyn Sir Keith the Brexit blocking lawyer' I immediately get the impression that the observation from this observer is not unbiased.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,096
    727 just flew lowish past my house. Was on its way from Doncaster to err Doncaster !
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    eadric said:

    The infamous "PB Tories" would be far better off admitting that Boris lost this one, and needs to up his game, than waste hours of our shortened lives looking for tiny small print that means his gaffe wasn't quite so bad. Ludicrous

    I think PB Labour are in denial about the polls.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited May 2020
    eadric said:

    A big ouch from Sweden

    Prof Ferguson quietly smiles in his eerie, undersea lair


    Been heading this way for a while. A month ago they had a quarter of Belgium's weekly death rate, or half of Spain/UK, now they're about to overtake them all for top spot in the world.

  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,766
    OllyT said:

    You are just too tribally blind to see what most other people can see. Starmer is going to do this to Johnson week in week out for the next 4 years.
    I personally think that one of Boris Johnson's greatest assets (to himself) is his gullible fanbase's unswerving dedication to massively overestimating him 🤣🤣
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Of course the outcome of all this is that the Conservative Party will now be trawling back years to dish some dirt on Starmer, and so it goes on.

    They're all just football hooligans without the bottle for a proper tear up
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Brom said:

    I think PB Labour are in denial about the polls.
    Why would polls matter when there's no election for 4 years.

    Neither today's polls nor today's PMQs will matter one jot in 4 years time.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,959

    So is it Grant Shapps who has been opposing quarantine ?
    So I have read. I understood he was only persuaded of the idiocy of this last Sunday. Presumably obsessed with being "open for business" or something. Maybe worried about whether there was going to be a solvent airline left. Who knows? Just stupid.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,317
    Brom said:

    I think PB Labour are in denial about the polls.
    Those are meaningless right now. Who in their right mind is thinking about who to vote for at the next election?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,424

    Patel was in favour of it but was overruled in Cabinet.
    It would be interesting to know who by and why.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited May 2020
    Germany will start to open some border crossings from Saturday, Interior Minister Horst Seehofer has announced. They include the border with Luxembourg and possibly that with Denmark.

    Border controls with France, Switzerland and Austria would be extended until 16 June, but as many crossings as possible will be opened, he said.

    "The goal is that from mid-June we want to have free travel in Europe," Mr Seehofer said, but clarified that controls would be re-introduced if there were new outbreaks of coronavirus.

    ----------

    "Our message is we will have a tourist season this summer," said economic affairs commissioner Paolo Gentiloni, "even if it's with security measures and limitations."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52644816

    ------------

    I have no idea how the UK government are going to make this 14 day quarantine, except for France / Ireland work if the above is the case.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,594
    eadric said:

    it's irrelevant. It doesn't save Boris. Starmer correctly quoted the advice, Boris claimed that wasn't the advice. C'est tout. Yes Starmer was a bit clever with his quotations, but that's his job, he's an ex lawyer. Boris the genial journalist was inadequate to the task.
    Starmer is like Howard so far, not particularly charismatic or likeable but competent and forensic and probing at PMQs using his legal background
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    You look stark, raving bonkers and like you don't understand international finance whatsoever.

    If you think we need the IMF perhaps you can explain what interest rate the UK bonds we're issuing are going for on the free market. If the free market thought we couldn't pay for them our bond yields would be going up as they were when Gordon Brown got us into a hole . . . so what are they now?
    They were lower under Gordon Brown than they were under John Major and Thatcher!
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    RobD said:

    Those are meaningless right now. Who in their right mind is thinking about who to vote for at the next election?
    its the best barometer of how each party is doing. Without them this website would not exist.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,317
    Brom said:

    its the best barometer of how each party is doing. Without them this website would not exist.
    They may be the best barometer, but that doesn't mean they can't also be useless at a time like this.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,096
    edited May 2020

    It would be interesting to know who by and why.
    Who CAN overule a Home Secretary.

    PM himself, Foreign and First Secretary of State are the only three jobs the same or higher.

    So it's either Sunak who I don't think would rock the boat either way on this matter.
    Boris would have been leaning towards not closing the2m but perhaps could be persuaded.
    The combination of Dominic Raab and Grant Shapps would have swung Johnson against Patel is my guess.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,877
    edited May 2020
    eadric said:

    Maybe she feels that as Germany (like us) goes back to the Stone Age, and a barter system, they won't need any more Russian gas, so she can finally stick it to Vladimir
    Ha! Quite possibly.

    I wonder if they are regretting turning off their nuclear power. After all, it has now been conclusively proved that eating bats is more dangerous than blowing a reactor up...
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    RobD said:

    Those are meaningless right now. Who in their right mind is thinking about who to vote for at the next election?
    PMQs is surely meaningless right now then. No one watches it and we're 5 years from an election.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,159

    Why don't they restrict the numbers allowed on ?
    Or increase the number of trains.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,424

    Germany will start to open some border crossings from Saturday, Interior Minister Horst Seehofer has announced. They include the border with Luxembourg and possibly that with Denmark.

    Border controls with France, Switzerland and Austria would be extended until 16 June, but as many crossings as possible will be opened, he said.

    "The goal is that from mid-June we want to have free travel in Europe," Mr Seehofer said, but clarified that controls would be re-introduced if there were new outbreaks of coronavirus.

    ----------

    "Our message is we will have a tourist season this summer," said economic affairs commissioner Paolo Gentiloni, "even if it's with security measures and limitations."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52644816

    ------------

    I have no idea how the UK government are going to make this 14 day quarantine, except for France / Ireland work if the above is the case.

    I doubt they want to make it work.

    But employers will have to restrict people returning to work if they suspect they have been in non-approved countries.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,666

    Why would polls matter when there's no election for 4 years.

    Neither today's polls nor today's PMQs will matter one jot in 4 years time.
    Unless the stench of incompetence and sneering arrogant uncaringness has been nailed to the government as it was to Major's in September 1992. Black Wednesday was only economic damage. This is tens of thousands of deaths AND economic damage on a much larger scale.

    There is an obvious get out for Johnson. "I have not fully recovered from CV19, its is a truly terrible thing, I will take a holiday to convalesce."
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Boris Johnson being unaware of his own government's guidance shows he is not master of his brief. That is probably as damaging as the specific negligence Sir Keir highlighted.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,135
    eadric said:

    A big ouch from Sweden

    Prof Ferguson quietly smiles in his eerie, undersea lair

    https://twitter.com/WoodfordinDK/status/1260544951483588613?s=20

    Wouldnt you if you were getting jerked off by someone elses wife?!
  • eekeek Posts: 29,554
    Brom said:

    PMQs is surely meaningless right now then. No one watches it and we're 5 years from an election.
    Just under 4 years from an election
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,766

    The overwhelming opinion of "PB Tories" was that Starmer won this week. I said that, Big_G said that and so did many others.

    I don't think the PM really can win right now when its such a sombre time.
    He can't win at any time because he is hopeless. Maybe he will step aside for Gove. At least Gove knows how to demonstrate knowledge of his own brief. Sadly for the Tories and the country, it is jovial incompetent buffoon or Gove - a man that gives the impression he would sell his granny for another shot at the premiership.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,225
    eadric said:

    A big ouch from Sweden

    Prof Ferguson quietly smiles in his eerie, undersea lair

    https://twitter.com/WoodfordinDK/status/1260544951483588613?s=20

    A few points:

    1. Sweden should be worse (at this point) than countries that enforced lockdown -> seems to be the case, compared to near neighbours anyway. If not, then it would suggest (with hindsight, though at the time still sensible, I think) that full lockdown was over-reaction.

    2. With normal behaviour, things in Sweden should be pretty horrendous, according to what we think we understand (i.e life as normal R ~ 3). They're not.

    3. This is probably due to Swedes not being stupid and changing behaviour more than the fairly minimal legal restrictions and so getting R somewhere close to 1 (transport data do show major changes in behaviour)

    4. Raises the question, would we (UK) still have levelled off (if not declined) without the full lockdown? We don't know. Depends on discipline and we probably had more initial cases (more through travel for business etc) so would have levelled off at a higher level. Even if we had levelled off at 8 April rather than starting decline, the extra deaths in this wave would be in the tens of thousands.

    5. If health services are not overwhelmed without a lockdown then lockdown alone just pushes deaths into the future by delaying infection. But those deaths might be avoided completely if there is a vaccine or effective treatment before they happen. So its too early to judge whether Sweden will have more deaths in the end than if full lockdown had been enforced.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited May 2020
    244 new deaths in England, last 3 day number, 27 / 72 / 40

    Deaths still coming in from March and early April.

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/05/COVID-19-daily-announced-deaths-13-May-2020.xlsx
  • isamisam Posts: 41,135
    Andy_JS said:

    "Britons were pictured packed like sardines on trains and buses today and warned that social distancing was 'next to impossible' as millions across the country went back to work for the first time after Boris Johnson eased the lockdown.
    ..........................................................................................................................................
    Passengers, the majority not wearing masks, were nose-to-nose on the Victoria Line in London this morning after services were suspended when a customer fell ill on a rush hour train. 'Social distancing during the peak was a joke. During the suspension our carriages were heaving - it will get worse,' said one worker, adding it was a 'complete shambles'."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8314303/Back-work-day-Commuters-pack-Tube-trains.html

    More fool them.

    I commuted to, and worked in, London for decades without getting the tube. Walking is often not much slower, its more comfortable and, particularly in a pandemic, better for you.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,135
    eadric said:

    Hahaha. Also she's modestly hot
    Yes, that too
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    Official overall numbers, again not the 100k...BJO incoming...

    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1260555502100140034?s=20
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,132

    Coronavirus won't last 4 years. More jovial times will return.
    Johnson, a pm for more jovial times.

    That's a political epitaph, not a selling point.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,027
    coach said:

    Normal people aren't interested, PMQs is a total irrelevance in terms of political popularity, as much as the anoraks wish it wasn't
    If they are a total irrelevance how do you account for the changing favourability ratings of Starmer and Johnson since PMQs started up again?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,135
    Selebian said:

    A few points:

    1. Sweden should be worse (at this point) than countries that enforced lockdown -> seems to be the case, compared to near neighbours anyway. If not, then it would suggest (with hindsight, though at the time still sensible, I think) that full lockdown was over-reaction.

    2. With normal behaviour, things in Sweden should be pretty horrendous, according to what we think we understand (i.e life as normal R ~ 3). They're not.

    3. This is probably due to Swedes not being stupid and changing behaviour more than the fairly minimal legal restrictions and so getting R somewhere close to 1 (transport data do show major changes in behaviour)

    4. Raises the question, would we (UK) still have levelled off (if not declined) without the full lockdown? We don't know. Depends on discipline and we probably had more initial cases (more through travel for business etc) so would have levelled off at a higher level. Even if we had levelled off at 8 April rather than starting decline, the extra deaths in this wave would be in the tens of thousands.

    5. If health services are not overwhelmed without a lockdown then lockdown alone just pushes deaths into the future by delaying infection. But those deaths might be avoided completely if there is a vaccine or effective treatment before they happen. So its too early to judge whether Sweden will have more deaths in the end than if full lockdown had been enforced.
    Yes, what worries me about releasing us from lockdown now is this... I dont see how we are any better off than we were 2 months ago, and we have ruined the economy. Am I less likely to catch Covid tomorrow than I was in March?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited May 2020
    isam said:

    Yes, what worries me about releasing us from lockdown now is this... I dont see how we are any better off than we were 2 months ago, and we have ruined the economy. Am I less likely to catch Covid tomorrow than I was in March?
    The EU seems to want to move very quickly now in reopening all borders and allowing movement throughout the various countries, including for holidays. Seems a big call, given some countries still far from out of the woods.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,317
    isam said:

    Yes, what worries me about releasing us from lockdown now is this... I dont see how we are any better off than we were 2 months ago, and we have ruined the economy. Am I less likely to catch Covid tomorrow than I was in March?
    More capacity in the NHS. That was one of the primary reasons, to buy time.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009

    The overwhelming opinion of "PB Tories" was that Starmer won this week. I said that, Big_G said that and so did many others.

    I don't think the PM really can win right now when its such a sombre time.
    he has an open goal , if him and his donkeys manage anywhere near a decent job they are heroes , unfortunately they are pretty crap an so Starmer will pummel him.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,317
    OllyT said:

    If they are a total irrelevance how do you account for the changing favourability ratings of Starmer and Johnson since PMQs started up again?
    Correlation does not imply causation. Likely the negative media coverage is the main driver.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    OllyT said:

    If they are a total irrelevance how do you account for the changing favourability ratings of Starmer and Johnson since PMQs started up again?
    I don't, but the favourability ratings more than 4 years from an election are irrelevant as well.

    Look, I didn't see PMQs and I haven't watched it for years and I understand your man did well today, but if you think that makes one jot of difference I believe you're mistaken
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Official overall numbers, again not the 100k...BJO incoming...

    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1260555502100140034?s=20

    "BJO incoming"

    PB Tories not so much for them 62k people tested is fine.

    Which if they were all being tracked and traced it would be.

    100k tests is so last month.

    50k deaths and rising
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,996
    edited May 2020
    And this from the middle of March:

    COVID-19 Hospital Discharge Service Requirements
    1.1 This document sets out the Hospital Discharge Service Requirements for all NHS trusts, community interest companies and private care providers of acute, community beds and community health services and social care staff in England, who must adhere to this from Thursday 19th March 2020. It also sets out requirements around discharge for health and social care commissioners (including Clinical Commissioning Groups and local authorities).
    1.2 Unless required to be in hospital (see Annex B ), patients must not remain in an NHS bed.
    1.3 Based on these criteria, acute and community hospitals must discharge all patients as soon as they are clinically safe to do so. Transfer from the ward should happen within one hour of that decision being made to a designated discharge area. Discharge from hospital should happen as soon after that as possible, normally within 2 hours.
    1.4 Implementing these Service Requirements is expected to free up to at least 15,000 beds by Friday 27th March 2020, with discharge flows maintained after that. Acute and community hospitals must keep a list of all those suitable for discharge and report on the number and percentage of patients on the list who have left the hospital and the number of delayed discharges through the daily situation report...


  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,424
    isam said:

    Yes, what worries me about releasing us from lockdown now is this... I dont see how we are any better off than we were 2 months ago, and we have ruined the economy. Am I less likely to catch Covid tomorrow than I was in March?
    If R has been below 1 for 7 weeks then you should be at much less risk now.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited May 2020

    "BJO incoming"

    PB Tories not so much for them 62k people tested is fine.

    Which if they were all being tracked and traced it would be.

    100k tests is so last month.

    50k deaths and rising
    Its actually the speed of tests / results that is the real issue here, and always has been. 75k a day is all done in a 1-2 days, is far better than 100k that take 3-4 days. Problem is they are doing 85k a day at 3-4 days.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Scott_xP said:
    That's a good point. I was thinking the same - Boris really needs to get out of the habit of flatly contradicting Sir Keir, who will have done his homework and will almost certainly be strictly correct in his carefully-chosen words. It seems strange to say it, but actually Boris needs to bluster more, not less, in exchanges like this, since he can't be expected to know the exact wording and dates of every government document.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866
    edited May 2020
    HYUFD said:
    So furloughed + lost jobs = 31%

    Which means that 69% of employees are at work. *Before* more returning.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,010

    Boris Johnson being unaware of his own government's guidance shows he is not master of his brief. That is probably as damaging as the specific negligence Sir Keir highlighted.

    To be fair, Johnson not knowing his arse from his elbow was kind of factored into the equation. Where I think the Tories are struggling is that so much of their political strategy seems to have been based on Jeremy Corbyn being Labour leader. They just assumed that he would be or that Labour would choose someone equally as useless. They have time to reclaibrate, but they are going to have to. Johnson cannot wing it against Starmer. But Starmer does have his own points of vulnerability. Attacks on him as a too clever by half, PC fanatic might work for the Tories, for example.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,550
    Brom said:

    PMQs is surely meaningless right now then. No one watches it and we're 5 years from an election.
    I would not say meaningless. It's a niche habit, watching PMQs, but the people who do watch it tend to be opinionated and influential amongst their peers. So for example, there could be a group of guys hanging out (once that is allowed again) and only one might have seen Starmer and Johnson jousting, but he will pass on his view of it to the wider gathering, possibly even show it to them on his phone. In this way, perceptions formed by PMQs - e.g. Johnson the bumbler, Starmer sharp as a tack - spread far beyond what you might expect from the bare viewing figures.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,424

    244 new deaths in England, last 3 day number, 27 / 72 / 40

    Deaths still coming in from March and early April.

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/05/COVID-19-daily-announced-deaths-13-May-2020.xlsx

    Those are encouraging mid week numbers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,996
    Nigelb said:

    And this from the middle of March:

    COVID-19 Hospital Discharge Service Requirements
    1.1 This document sets out the Hospital Discharge Service Requirements for all NHS trusts, community interest companies and private care providers of acute, community beds and community health services and social care staff in England, who must adhere to this from Thursday 19th March 2020. It also sets out requirements around discharge for health and social care commissioners (including Clinical Commissioning Groups and local authorities).
    1.2 Unless required to be in hospital (see Annex B ), patients must not remain in an NHS bed.
    1.3 Based on these criteria, acute and community hospitals must discharge all patients as soon as they are clinically safe to do so. Transfer from the ward should happen within one hour of that decision being made to a designated discharge area. Discharge from hospital should happen as soon after that as possible, normally within 2 hours.
    1.4 Implementing these Service Requirements is expected to free up to at least 15,000 beds by Friday 27th March 2020, with discharge flows maintained after that. Acute and community hospitals must keep a list of all those suitable for discharge and report on the number and percentage of patients on the list who have left the hospital and the number of delayed discharges through the daily situation report...


    Annex B:

    Every patient on every general ward should be reviewed on a twice daily board round to determine the following. If the answer to each question is ‘no’, active consideration for discharge to a less acute setting must be made.

    Requiring ITU or HDU care Requiring oxygen therapy/ NIV
    Requiring intravenous fluids
    NEWS2 > 3
    (clinical judgement required in patients with AF &/or chronic respiratory disease)
    Diminished level of consciousness where recovery realistic
    Acute functional impairment
    in excess of home/community care provision
    Last hours of life
    Requiring intravenous medication > b.d. (including analgesia)
    Undergone lower limb surgery within 48hrs
    Undergone thorax-abdominal/pelvic surgery with 72 hrs
    Within 24hrs of an invasive procedure
    (with attendant risk of acute life threatening deterioration)...

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,996

    I love it when people put two words together in an usual combination, the best ones strike me as great names for band. Waffle holster is definitely up there.

    My missus is good at coining them, often food related - ‘Concentrated Mince’ is my personal favourite.

    This is wildly off topic but I just wanted to doff my cap to your pleasant phraseology!
    No - it's an excellent description of the current cabinet.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,135
    kinabalu said:

    I would not say meaningless. It's a niche habit, watching PMQs, but the people who do watch it tend to be opinionated and influential amongst their peers. So for example, there could be a group of guys hanging out (once that is allowed again) and only one might have seen Starmer and Johnson jousting, but he will pass on his view of it to the wider gathering, possibly even show it to them on his phone. In this way, perceptions formed by PMQs - e.g. Johnson the bumbler, Starmer sharp as a tack - spread far beyond what you might expect from the bare viewing figures.
    More people are likely to have watched his response on Monday which would have sent an insomniac Covid-19 news junkie to sleep. But I reckon the polls will move towards him, as people who answer opinion polls are the kind of people who watch PMQs
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,027

    Coronavirus won't last 4 years. More jovial times will return.
    It won't last four years but the economic fallout will.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,096

    Those are encouraging mid week numbers.
    Yes the infection control was all going well. It's still quiet out here, but we all know where a resurgence might start from.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,135
    isam said:

    Yes, what worries me about releasing us from lockdown now is this... I dont see how we are any better off than we were 2 months ago, and we have ruined the economy. Am I less likely to catch Covid tomorrow than I was in March?
    Yes. The increase in testing capacity should make it easier to identify those with the virus and prevent them from passing it on.

    This will be even better if/when they sort out the contact tracing app and the manual contact tracing to work with the testing.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866

    244 new deaths in England, last 3 day number, 27 / 72 / 40

    Deaths still coming in from March and early April.

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/05/COVID-19-daily-announced-deaths-13-May-2020.xlsx

    Lowest first weekday - 40 for yesterday. 184 in the last 7 days.

    image
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,666

    To be fair, Johnson not knowing his arse from his elbow was kind of factored into the equation. Where I think the Tories are struggling is that so much of their political strategy seems to have been based on Jeremy Corbyn being Labour leader. They just assumed that he would be or that Labour would choose someone equally as useless. They have time to reclaibrate, but they are going to have to. Johnson cannot wing it against Starmer. But Starmer does have his own points of vulnerability. Attacks on him as a too clever by half, PC fanatic might work for the Tories, for example.
    In normal times I thought SKS might struggle a little to establish himself. There's not a lot of pizazz which seems to be a requirement in politics these days. However these aren't normal times, and straight bat factual takedowns of the insane clown posse seems to be doing the job
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,886
    eadric said:

    THIS is disturbing

    Long term illness, fatigue, delirium, breathlessness, nerve damage, after even a mild Covid infection

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/health-news/11588634/coronavirus-long-term-effects-brain-damage-fatigue/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=sunmaintwitter&utm_source=Twitter

    This tallies with what I am hearing from friends and acquaintances who have gone down with the Rona. It takes ages - if ever - to get better

    Indeed it is what I experienced (IF I had it), the last, peculiar symptoms lingered on for many weeks

    Boris certainly seems to be fundamentally changed. Almost a different ch
    Just shows what an absolute clusterfuck the office property market will be in short order.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131

    Yes. The increase in testing capacity should make it easier to identify those with the virus and prevent them from passing it on.

    This will be even better if/when they sort out the contact tracing app and the manual contact tracing to work with the testing.
    They have gone very quiet on the app. Me thinks big trouble in little China.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,996

    The actual paragraph which Starmer is cleverly twisting both as regards content and date was this, issued on the 25th Feb:

    This guidance is intended for the current position in the UK where there is currently no transmission of COVID-19 in the community. It is therefore very unlikely that anyone receiving care in a care home or the community will become infected. This is the latest information and will be updated shortly.

    (My emphasis).

    If you've been perusing many government documents recently, you'll realise that "shortly" has a meaning which can stretch a fair way.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,027
    eadric said:

    THIS is disturbing

    Long term illness, fatigue, delirium, breathlessness, nerve damage, after even a mild Covid infection

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/health-news/11588634/coronavirus-long-term-effects-brain-damage-fatigue/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=sunmaintwitter&utm_source=Twitter

    This tallies with what I am hearing from friends and acquaintances who have gone down with the Rona. It takes ages - if ever - to get better

    Indeed it is what I experienced (IF I had it), the last, peculiar symptoms lingered on for many weeks

    My bet is similar to yours, Boris will stand down citing poor health before the next election.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    Demographically we are becoming like the US, skilled white working class and lower middle class voters and voters in rural areas and small towns vote Tory/GOP, the poorest voters and ethnic minorities in big cities vote Labour/Democrat.

    As in the US it is now suburban higher earning voters who are the key swing voters
    Also the least educated voters support the Tories whilst Graduates vote Labour or other parties.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    EU commision on guidance for resume of travel and tourism.

    This would be followed by the opening of all internal borders, and countries should not “discriminate” against any other EU countries.

    This seems very silly guidance. France currently has different rules for different areas, Germany has strict rules on if a particular regime case rate goes above a certain level, again restrictions change. A blanket one sized fit all rules across the whole of the EU seems like a recipe for disaster.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Its actually the speed of tests / results that is the real issue here, and always has been. 75k a day is all done in a 1-2 days, is far better than 100k that take 3-4 days. Problem is they are doing 85k a day at 3-4 days.
    You know, I know, the Govt and Scientists know we needed testing capacity at the peak of the virus.

    It wasnt there, we dropped track and trace as we didnt have the capacity impacting massively on the number of deaths.

    Running to catch up is fine but the damage is mainly done.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,960

    Why don't they restrict the numbers allowed on ?
    What are the Govrnment guidelines on this? Don´t tell me they haven´t thought this through!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866
    dixiedean said:

    Boris certainly seems to be fundamentally changed. Almost a different ch Just shows what an absolute clusterfuck the office property market will be in short order.
    69% of the workforce at work - are we seeing another LondonJournalist effect in reporting? The impression is being given (in the news, generally) that everyone is furloughed, with a few working from home.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,010

    That's a good point. I was thinking the same - Boris really needs to get out of the habit of flatly contradicting Sir Keir, who will have done his homework and will almost certainly be strictly correct in his carefully-chosen words. It seems strange to say it, but actually Boris needs to bluster more, not less, in exchanges like this, since he can't be expected to know the exact wording and dates of every government document.

    No QC will ask a question to which the answer is unknown. Johnson will learn this and once his MPs are back will be able to roar his way out of most of these exchanges. But these few weeks have given Starmer a chance to establish a dynamic and Johnson will now be concerned about doing PMQs in a way that he wasn't before. From time to time, that means he will make mistakes. Importantly for Starmer, his performances will inspire confidence from both his MPs and Labour members. That will help him do a lot of the stuff he has to do to rebuild the party.

  • ClippP said:

    What are the Govrnment guidelines on this? Don´t tell me they haven´t thought this through!
    Aren't the Mayor and TFL responsible for the tube.

    Do we know how the numbers compared with the corresponding working day last week ?
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    eadric said:

    THIS is disturbing

    Long term illness, fatigue, delirium, breathlessness, nerve damage, after even a mild Covid infection

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/health-news/11588634/coronavirus-long-term-effects-brain-damage-fatigue/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=sunmaintwitter&utm_source=Twitter

    This tallies with what I am hearing from friends and acquaintances who have gone down with the Rona. It takes ages - if ever - to get better

    Indeed it is what I experienced (IF I had it), the last, peculiar symptoms lingered on for many weeks

    Early retirement due to ill health from Johnson?


    I've had some lingering chest problems since (possibly) having it, so I can well believe there is some sort of post-viral fall out.
  • justin124 said:

    Also the least educated voters support the Tories whilst Graduates vote Labour or other parties.
    That's always been the case. Better educated people tend to be more left wing. Certainly the extreme right attracts the less educated and intelligent people.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,010

    In normal times I thought SKS might struggle a little to establish himself. There's not a lot of pizazz which seems to be a requirement in politics these days. However these aren't normal times, and straight bat factual takedowns of the insane clown posse seems to be doing the job

    It all goes in cycles. There will come a time when people want serious and intelligent, rather than flippant and half-baked. I am very comfortable with SKS as Labour leader. I did not vote for him, but I am glad he won.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,135

    They have gone very quiet on the app. Me thinks big trouble in little China.
    Yes.

    I'm sure they'll get there in the end. We can probably just re-skin one built for another country if we have to, eventually.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited May 2020
    We still not getting with the mask programme...

    The 47-year-old street works inspector said he saw "less than 10% of commuters wearing masks" on his London Underground journey.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52645366

    What is this weird aversion to wearing one?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    OllyT said:

    It won't last four years but the economic fallout will.
    Not the same thing. PMQs is naturally different when you're quoting thousands of deaths.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,996
    Nigelb said:

    Annex B:

    Every patient on every general ward should be reviewed on a twice daily board round to determine the following. If the answer to each question is ‘no’, active consideration for discharge to a less acute setting must be made.

    Requiring ITU or HDU care Requiring oxygen therapy/ NIV
    Requiring intravenous fluids
    NEWS2 > 3
    (clinical judgement required in patients with AF &/or chronic respiratory disease)
    Diminished level of consciousness where recovery realistic
    Acute functional impairment
    in excess of home/community care provision
    Last hours of life
    Requiring intravenous medication > b.d. (including analgesia)
    Undergone lower limb surgery within 48hrs
    Undergone thorax-abdominal/pelvic surgery with 72 hrs
    Within 24hrs of an invasive procedure
    (with attendant risk of acute life threatening deterioration)...

    I believe this was the policy which an anonymous No.10 source later described as a "Stiff Broom".
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822


    The EU seems to want to move very quickly now in reopening all borders and allowing movement throughout the various countries, including for holidays. Seems a big call, given some countries still far from out of the woods.

    Yes, I think they are getting ahead of themselves there. It might be OK to open up borders between a small number of countries which have the situation under good control, but if they (for understandable political reasons) insist on opening up the entire EU area as one block, it is going to be very dangerous. It only takes one country to screw up the whole thing.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250

    That's always been the case. Better educated people tend to be more left wing. Certainly the extreme right attracts the less educated and intelligent people.
    I'm quite new here, is this the sort of tripe I'll have to get used to?

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,135
    coach said:

    I'm quite new here, is this the sort of tripe I'll have to get used to?

    As long as you don't try to put it on a pizza then I think we're fine with tripe.
  • Of course Johnson shouldn't have said what he said. But the advice is from Public Health England, on a govt webpage, but clearly PHE an independent body, The govt is following the experts advice at the time. In the current febrile environment it is all about blaming politicians and political considerations however too often PHE, NHS Supply chains, care home owners and others have made errors but not been held to account for it because it is all about blaming Johnson and the govt.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,550

    It all goes in cycles. There will come a time when people want serious and intelligent, rather than flippant and half-baked. I am very comfortable with SKS as Labour leader. I did not vote for him, but I am glad he won.
    I voted for Nandy. Most Labour posters on here voted for Nandy. Every Labour member who I personally know voted for Nandy.

    Yet Starmer won by a mile and Nandy came last. Quite odd.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    OllyT said:

    I'm loving the complacency from the PB Tories.

    Out of interest why do you think it's so hilarious to call Starmer Sir Keith?
    Complacency? I just set out a detailed roadmap for how to destroy Starmer politically, which is a task of the utmost importance.

    The complacent ones are those who think a good PMQs means that Starmer is nailed on for next PM and we should just give up and go home.

    Nope, not going to go it - not now, not ever.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    It all goes in cycles. There will come a time when people want serious and intelligent, rather than flippant and half-baked. I am very comfortable with SKS as Labour leader. I did not vote for him, but I am glad he won.

    I think we both voted Nandy.

    I was fairly unimpressed with Starmer up to the weekend.

    He has been really excellent in his LOTO response and the Parliamentary sessions on Monday and todays PMQs.

    Keep it up and there will surely be a narrowing of the polls particularly when financial reality kicks in.

    He needs to avoid being seen as Austerity Lite as we go forward IMO
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,640

    Its actually the speed of tests / results that is the real issue here, and always has been. 75k a day is all done in a 1-2 days, is far better than 100k that take 3-4 days. Problem is they are doing 85k a day at 3-4 days.
    Mate of mine, in the NHS, was tested yesterday and was told it could be 5 days before he got the result.

    By which time he could have caught it even if the test is negative.

    He did say it is very unpleasant having the swab all the way down to the tonsils then up the nose.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,307
    justin124 said:

    Also the least educated voters support the Tories whilst Graduates vote Labour or other parties.</blockquote

    2015 General Election survey didn't show that big a difference between Graduates voting Labour and Tory.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/06/08/general-election-2015-how-britain-really-voted
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,493
    I really don't care enough about this advice or not advice story to even understand it. And I'm engaged enough to be posting on a political betting website. If I were Starmer's Mum, I might care about my little boy doing really well at his new job today and writing a lovely letter on headed paper. Given that I'm not, I don't. And I struggle to see anyone else without a similar motivation caring, understanding, or caring enough to understand.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    Update on the App....Hancock says nationwide next week...tech bods say, WHHHAATTTTT..

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8315091/Will-NHS-contact-tracing-app-ready-week-Expert-surprised.html
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,307
    2017 GE appears to be a bigger move amongst Graduates to back Labour.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/06/13/how-britain-voted-2017-general-election

    Was Brexit a significant driver of change?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    coach said:

    I'm quite new here, is this the sort of tripe I'll have to get used to?

    That particular trope is quite fun because it explains why lefties get so very, very angry when they get landslided by those they consider to be their intellectual inferiors.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited May 2020
    The "educated" thing is of course nonsense, it is really a proxy for age.

    Oldies much more likely to vote Tory, youngsters Labour, and of course when oldies were 18, only ~10% went to uni, compared to 50% now.

    So the "graduate" stats are heavily skewed.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Johnson, a pm for more jovial times.

    That's a political epitaph, not a selling point.
    No. You're deliberately misreading what I wrote.

    The PM is managing very challenging circumstances and when PMQs is so sombre it's easy for a LOTO to ask challenging questions to which he knows there is no good answer. Especially when thousands are dying.

    When we are in normal times and in a background of an economic recovery PMQs will be very different. Completely different.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,307
    Among graduates, 39% said they voted Labour, 34% the Conservatives, and 17% the Liberal Democrats.
    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election

    Ipsos - Mori Dec 2019 General election.
  • coach said:

    I'm quite new here, is this the sort of tripe I'll have to get used to?

    What, facts ?

    I say it with no malice. It's just a fact the far right (of which there are no posters here who fall into that category) usually draws its support from less educated people.

    Also education is not the same as intelligence. Older generation voters had less chance to go to university. It stands to reason more voters in the 65 and above demographic will not be educated to degree level than 25 to 34 age group. That doesn;t make them less intelligent

    The group is a luvvie fest for Starmer at the moment. Apparently he's "forensic". Stick around to join in the love in. It's becoming North Korean. We'll all be clapping for Kier next.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    The "educated" thing is of course nonsense, it is really a proxy for age.

    Oldies much more likely to vote Tory, youngsters Labour, and of course when oldies were 18, only ~10% went to uni, compared to 50% now.

    It's a proxy for "lack of life experience"
This discussion has been closed.