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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Good Friday PB Nighthawks cafe

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited April 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Good Friday PB Nighthawks cafe

One of the features of the current lockdown is just how thoughtful and generous people are. Shopping is a massive challenge for us at the moment because it is almost impossible to get delivery slots from the supermarket and we cannot countenance the risk of going ourselves

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    I see Michelle Obama is on Betfair for Dem VP at under 25. Is there a bigger misprice around right now? I'd argue Kamala Harris in the same market at 2.2 is pretty close actually.

    I've laid both, but dyor.
  • Awesome neighbours.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    On a glorious morning, Christendom awoke to find the plague gone. Life and joy, denied for so long, demanded their due. Survivors drank intoxicatingly, fornicated wildly, spent lavishly, ate gluttonously, dressed extravagantly. In England craftsmen took to wearing silk cloth and belts with silver buckles, and ignored a royal ordinance forbidding the lower orders from eating meat and fish at more than one meal a day. In Orvieto, where almost half the town lay buried in local plague pits, couples copulated on the freshly laid grass above the pits. In France “men became more miserly and grasping.” And everywhere survivors luxuriated in the sudden abundance of a commodity that only a few months earlier had seemed so fragile, so perishable—time: wonderful, glorious, infinite time. Time for family, for work. Time to gaze into an evening sky. Time to eat and drink and make love.

    Kelly, The Great Mortality. Just so you all know what to expect.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2020
    MaxPB said:


    A huge, ambitious rebuilding of the European economy to reshore jobs and supply chains from China. The aim of the scheme would be to bring back critical and sensitive manufacturing back from China and rebuild those industries in the worst affected nations. This would be a 10-15 year aim and not related to the emergency funding of €1.5tn that the ECB has recommended.

    I think we are going to see this across the developed nations.

    For all the screams of sinophobia etc, there is no way a sensible US president will want to get caught out again. In the same way as all developed nations are moving away from dependance on Saudi oil and Russian gas, it is a national security issue not to have a situation like China making 97% of all antibiotics or India making basically all the paracetamol.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    But officer, why have been moved on to a new thread, my tan isn't topped up enough yet.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Ok, my write up on the EU corona mechanism. It's not going to be a critique of what's been agreed, there are plenty of people who have already written that. I want to concentrate on is the approach the EU should have agreed:

    A huge, ambitious rebuilding of the European economy to reshore jobs and supply chains from China. The aim of the scheme would be to bring back critical and sensitive manufacturing back from China and rebuild those industries in the worst affected nations. This would be a 10-15 year aim and not related to the emergency funding of €1.5tn that the ECB has recommended. This would be a huge €1.5tn fund of its own for economic stimulus going way, way beyond the patch job the ECB have recommended (which hasn't been met).

    The main question is how to fund it. First lets look at the main reason why the Coronabond has been seen as a non-starter - they are, in essence, a debt mutualisation scheme under the umbrella of the EU. It allows poorer nations to benefit from the credit ratings of the wealthier nations, however, and this is the main sticking point, it also mutualises debt servicing costs. For the €1.5tn aim at a 1% annual average interest rate it would cost €15bn per year to service the bonds, this would come out of common EU funds which means the not only are the wealthy nations on the hook in case of default, they're also on the hook for the debt servicing cost. It is a scheme that has little to no support in northern Europe and also has no democratic mandate within the EU, this scheme would require treaty change, which is a whole new can of worms (and one that was avoided even during the EMU debt crisis).

    There is nothing in it for the wealthier nations other than this ethereal concept of solidarity. It has been blatantly obvious to anyone watching for the last few years that solidarity was never going to be enough to get any kind of action on this.

    The answer is split the difference. The spread on German and Italian debt currently sits at just under 2%, that means Germany can borrow money at an interest rate 2% lower than Italy. On average the nations who want the money need to pay around 1.5% more in interest than the nations who would be doing the borrowing. By splitting the difference both sides gain. Italy is suddenly able to access €400bn in no strings attached money at an interest rate of 0.6%, meaning debt servicing costs of €3.5bn per year vs something closer to €9bn once the increase in yields is taken into account due to new debt issuance.

    It is not a fullproof plan and I'm sure there would be a lot of unease in Germany and other nations at giving southern Europe the proverbial national credit card, however, both sides gain. On €1.5tn of issued bonds, the creditor nations would benefit to the tune of €12bn per year and the debtor nations would also benefit by at least the same amount (probably more given the increase in yields were they to add that kind of debt onto their own balance sheets).
  • So sad.

    Treatment for my Parkinson's is on hold during coronavirus crisis and it is tough, says Shaun Udal

    Former England spinner explains how coronavirus pandemic is making his and other Parkinson's disease sufferers' lives more painful

    Shaun Udal has to stop talking every few minutes to take a sip of water. He apologises for having to pause and for the fact it is hard to hear him speak because his voice is weak.

    Udal is fighting Parkinson’s disease, which was diagnosed almost exactly 12 months ago a few days before his 50th birthday. Now a year later, he is still coming to terms with his new life and dealing with the added complication of handling the coronavirus shutdown which has left him in pain because he is unable to access his treatment.

    Before the pandemic, Udal had found some relief from his symptoms through massage therapy. His old Hampshire colleague, David Gower recommended a therapist in Romsey, Sue Mills, who had a reputation for alleviating Parkinson’s symptoms through a unique application of deep tissue massage to reactivate muscles shutdown by the disease.

    Combined with his drug therapy, the massage sessions, available through the NHS, give Udal relief from the debilitating symptoms of Parkinson’s but physio practises are closed now and he is paying the price. His is also managing director of a cotton graphics clothing company which is shutdown at the moment too adding to his concerns.

    There is a lot of publicity and advice for those with underlying health conditions put in danger by the coronavirus pandemic, but for someone like Udal the challenge is different. Parkinson’s is not respiratory disease and he is in no more danger form the virus as any other healthy person of his age but the difference is how it restricts access to treatment which could lead to longer terms problems.

    “When I don’t have treatment after a week my speech is slurred, my foot drags and my right side is in pain. I had never experienced pain like I did with it yesterday. It was horrible. I have doubled up on painkillers now and that is helping a bit but that is not a long term answer.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2020/04/10/treatment-parkinsons-hold-coronavirus-crisis-tough-saysshaun/
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    I think we are going to see this across the developed nations.

    For all the screams of sinophobia etc, there is no way a sensible US president will want to get caught out again. In the same way as all developed nations are moving away from dependance on Saudi oil and Russian gas, it is a national security issue not to have a situation like China making 97% of all antibiotics or India making basically all the paracetamol.

    Yes, but none of that comes for free, and it would be completely stupid for Germany to use its own economic might to snaffle whatever gains are to be had from it leaving the scraps for southern Europe to fight over.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    alex_ said:

    eadric said:

    Stocky said:

    eadric said:

    Stocky said:

    eadric said:

    A weird thing I’ve noticed



    I’m doing loads of long (legal!) walks, getting plenty of fresh air and sunshine, eating lots of healthy home cooked food, doing exercise in my mini gym, and getting plenty of rest and sleep, and not worrying about work so much

    As a result, I now feel healthier and calmer during this plague than I felt for several years before

    Other friends of mine report the same

    Perhaps you are financiallly secure Eadric.

    My neighbour is chuffed to bits with lockdown. He said to me yesterday that he wants it to go on for 2-3 years because that will take him nicely to retirement as long as government continue to pay 80% of his salary.
    Yes i am financially secure, also I can work from home. And I am in a very nice property in a pleasant part of the world. I am lucky, I would never deny it.

    That said I fully expect this virus, before it is done, to take lives of one or two people I love. Maybe more. They are just too vulnerable.

    So this is a kind of early war period when the air war is raging in the blue sunny sky, the Spitfires tackling the Messerschmidts, but the real Blitz has yet to begin.

    Remember this virus will come in waves. Like the Luftwaffe
    So do you agree with me that the health consequences are still underestimated by some people, and that (almost) everyone will catch it at some point, with a mortality rate of 0.5 - 1%?
    I mostly agree with you, tho I think mortality rate may be in the 1-2% range, but I am not sure (no one is)

    Yes in the end 50-80% of people will get it.

    The trouble with this virus -as we all know - is that it causes so many hospitalisations, that crash the health system, which mean you end up with a much higher rate of fatality. Hence the lockdowns

    But we all know all of this.

    Now I must go, the wife insists we watch masterchef! Later
    And how do you explain countries where the death rate is way way lower than 1%? New Zealand for example?
    Most of the evidence now points to about a 0.6% fatality rate, assuming there is ample health service capacity, and once one includes largely asymptomatic infections. Where countries see higher fatality rates it is either because the health service is overwhelmed and/or where only those who are highly sympotmatic are tested.

    Quite a few of this 0.6% are people with existing co-morbidities, so this death rate probably exaggerates the number of excess deaths.

    That being said... 0.6% of 70 million is still a large number. (Albeit I suspect we will find that people with certain genetic markers are unlikely to get the disease, so the maximum who will get it is probably unlikely to exceed 60%.)

    So the question becomes how we improve treatments and minimse spread.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    IshmaelZ said:

    On a glorious morning, Christendom awoke to find the plague gone. Life and joy, denied for so long, demanded their due. Survivors drank intoxicatingly, fornicated wildly, spent lavishly, ate gluttonously, dressed extravagantly. In England craftsmen took to wearing silk cloth and belts with silver buckles, and ignored a royal ordinance forbidding the lower orders from eating meat and fish at more than one meal a day. In Orvieto, where almost half the town lay buried in local plague pits, couples copulated on the freshly laid grass above the pits. In France “men became more miserly and grasping.” And everywhere survivors luxuriated in the sudden abundance of a commodity that only a few months earlier had seemed so fragile, so perishable—time: wonderful, glorious, infinite time. Time for family, for work. Time to gaze into an evening sky. Time to eat and drink and make love.

    Kelly, The Great Mortality. Just so you all know what to expect.

    Nice quote and piece of research...I'm off to bed....things to do, people to see tomorrow (well the dog to walk at least...)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2020
    MaxPB said:

    I think we are going to see this across the developed nations.

    For all the screams of sinophobia etc, there is no way a sensible US president will want to get caught out again. In the same way as all developed nations are moving away from dependance on Saudi oil and Russian gas, it is a national security issue not to have a situation like China making 97% of all antibiotics or India making basically all the paracetamol.

    Yes, but none of that comes for free, and it would be completely stupid for Germany to use its own economic might to snaffle whatever gains are to be had from it leaving the scraps for southern Europe to fight over.
    It is going to be fascinating to see just how interventionist the state is going to be in lots of countries who for a lifetime have been wed to the principle of liberal global free trade.

    Trying to weave your way through this without going full on Jezza style socialism is very tricky, when the whole system has been driven to a place where you build it or source it in whichever location that can do it the cheapest and ship it 1,000 of miles around the world to the target market.

    And us the consumer, we have become used to things becoming cheaper and cheaper, and having a totally disposal society.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    twitter.com/blakehounshell/status/1248716532294848513

    Richard Burgon level stupidity
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092

    MaxPB said:

    I think we are going to see this across the developed nations.

    For all the screams of sinophobia etc, there is no way a sensible US president will want to get caught out again. In the same way as all developed nations are moving away from dependance on Saudi oil and Russian gas, it is a national security issue not to have a situation like China making 97% of all antibiotics or India making basically all the paracetamol.

    Yes, but none of that comes for free, and it would be completely stupid for Germany to use its own economic might to snaffle whatever gains are to be had from it leaving the scraps for southern Europe to fight over.
    It is going to be fascinating to see just how interventionist the state is going to be in lots of countries who for a lifetime have been wed to the principle of liberal global free trade.

    Trying to weave your way through this without going full on Jezza style socialism is very tricky, when the whole system has been driven to a place where you build it or source it in whichever location that can do it the cheapest and ship it 1,000 of miles around the world to the target market.

    And us the consumer, we have become used to things becoming cheaper and cheaper, and having a totally disposal society.
    Globalization defeated by globulization

  • matthiasfromhamburgmatthiasfromhamburg Posts: 957
    edited April 2020
    MaxPB said:

    Ok, my write up on the EU corona mechanism. It's not going to be a critique of what's been agreed, there are plenty of people who have already written that. I want to concentrate on is the approach the EU should have agreed:

    A huge, ambitious rebuilding of the European economy to reshore jobs and supply chains from China. The aim of the scheme would be to bring back critical and sensitive manufacturing back from China and rebuild those industries in the worst affected nations. This would be a 10-15 year aim and not related to the emergency funding of €1.5tn that the ECB has recommended. This would be a huge €1.5tn fund of its own for economic stimulus going way, way beyond the patch job the ECB have recommended (which hasn't been met).

    The main question is how to fund it. First lets look at the main reason why the Coronabond has been seen as a non-starter - they are, in essence, a debt mutualisation scheme under the umbrella of the EU. It allows poorer nations to benefit from the credit ratings of the wealthier nations, however, and this is the main sticking point, it also mutualises debt servicing costs. For the €1.5tn aim at a 1% annual average interest rate it would cost €15bn per year to service the bonds, this would come out of common EU funds which means the not only are the wealthy nations on the hook in case of default, they're also on the hook for the debt servicing cost. It is a scheme that has little to no support in northern Europe and also has no democratic mandate within the EU, this scheme would require treaty change, which is a whole new can of worms (and one that was avoided even during the EMU debt crisis).

    There is nothing in it for the wealthier nations other than this ethereal concept of solidarity. It has been blatantly obvious to anyone watching for the last few years that solidarity was never going to be enough to get any kind of action on this.

    The answer is split the difference. The spread on German and Italian debt currently sits at just under 2%, that means Germany can borrow money at an interest rate 2% lower than Italy. On average the nations who want the money need to pay around 1.5% more in interest than the nations who would be doing the borrowing. By splitting the difference both sides gain. Italy is suddenly able to access €400bn in no strings attached money at an interest rate of 0.6%, meaning debt servicing costs of €3.5bn per year vs something closer to €9bn once the increase in yields is taken into account due to new debt issuance.

    It is not a fullproof plan and I'm sure there would be a lot of unease in Germany and other nations at giving southern Europe the proverbial national credit card, however, both sides gain. On €1.5tn of issued bonds, the creditor nations would benefit to the tune of €12bn per year and the debtor nations would also benefit by at least the same amount (probably more given the increase in yields were they to add that kind of debt onto their own balance sheets).

    We'll have to wait a bit to see how the interest rate spreads develop, but I agree with the thrust of your post.
    I already stated some days ago that the focus right now must be on providing liquidity to sustain consumption, just to keep the show on the road, but that, once the dust has settled and the rebuild must begin, the focus may change and a further mutualisation of debt for genuine investment, in whichever actual form, may be the correct move.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,571
    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    When do we copy the German level of spending on health? Or even stop diverging further from German levels?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    BBC says "John Hopkins University".
    Standards eh?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    When the right learns to stop worrying and love Europe.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    You're pissing in the wind if you think there any chance of the NHS being scrapped.

    Perhaps what you should have asked is 'when do we fund the NHS at German levels'?

    (2017 figures: UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, Germany spent £4,432)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,911
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-8208835/US-government-asks-field-research-involving-bats-suspended-COVID-19-pandemic.html

    "US government suspends all research involving bats out of concern that humans could pass coronavirus on and make the pandemic harder to contain"
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    When the right learns to stop worrying and love Europe.
    Well hello Dr. Strangelove
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273

    twitter.com/blakehounshell/status/1248716532294848513

    Richard Burgon level stupidity
    I'd love to see Trump's IQ tested.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    When the right learns to stop worrying and love Europe.
    Seems the South Korean system is better than the German one #notEurope
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The latest on the inane drivel now masquerading as news .

    Johnson is now well enough to do sudoku puzzles and watch the odd film. In tomorrow’s update we hear whether he went for the fish or meat main course !

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    twitter.com/blakehounshell/status/1248716532294848513

    Richard Burgon level stupidity
    I'd love to see Trump's IQ tested.
    Like his health, it would be off the charts, the best ever for a president, 350+.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,866
    edited April 2020
    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    Do you think we can afford it? In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, while the Germans spent £4,432 per person. Perhaps the NHS would work better if we weren't trying to run it on a shoestring!

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2020

    twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1248646147553529861?s=09

    Disappointing for the Tories not to crack 50% on that one ;-)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited April 2020
    nico67 said:

    The latest on the inane drivel now masquerading as news .

    Johnson is now well enough to do sudoku puzzles and watch the odd film. In tomorrow’s update we hear whether he went for the fish or meat main course !

    News regarding the PM's recovery is inane drivel?
  • TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Steal the best bits? A plan I can get behind. ;)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    I'm guessing simply throwing money at it won't miraculously make it better.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    The latest on the inane drivel now masquerading as news .

    Johnson is now well enough to do sudoku puzzles and watch the odd film. In tomorrow’s update we hear whether he went for the fish or meat main course !

    News regarding the PM's recovery is inane drivel?

    Which 'odd film' did he watch, I wonder?
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    I hope we can get beyond the Danny Boyle nonsense and reform. Doubt it will happen.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    Should we plot that on a logarithmic scale?

    Night all.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038

    twitter.com/blakehounshell/status/1248716532294848513

    Richard Burgon level stupidity
    I'd love to see Trump's IQ tested.
    Like his health, it would be off the charts, the best ever for a president, 350+.
    Yet he is likely to be reelected. His base, plus enough independents, don't care what he says.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Completely OT (well except for the lesson on how to treat gossip)

    Keep this in mind the next time you are about to repeat a rumour or spread gossip.

    In ancient Greece (469 - 399 BC), Socrates was widely lauded for his wisdom.

    One day an acquaintance ran up to him excitedly and said, "Socrates, do you know what I just heard about Diogenes?"

    "Wait a moment," Socrates replied, "Before you tell me I'd like you to pass a little test. It's called the Triple Filter Test."

    'Triple filter?" asked the acquaintance.

    "That's right," Socrates continued, "Before you talk to me about Diogenes let's take a moment to filter what you're going to say. The first filter is Truth. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about to tell me is true?"

    "No," the man said, "Actually I just heard about it."

    "All right," said Socrates, "So you don't really know if it's true or not. Now let's try the second filter, the filter of Goodness. Is what you are about to tell me about Diogenes something good?"

    "No, on the contrary..."

    "So," Socrates continued, "You want to tell me something about Diogenes that may be bad, even though you're not certain it's true?"
    The man shrugged, a little embarrassed. Socrates continued, "You may still pass the test though, because there is a third filter, the filter of Usefulness. Is what you want to tell me about Diogenes going to be useful to me?"

    "No, not really."

    "Well," concluded Socrates, "If what you want to tell me is neither True nor Good nor even Useful, why tell it to me or anyone at all?"

    The man was bewildered and ashamed. This is an example of why Socrates was a great philosopher and held in such high esteem.

    It also explains why Socrates never found out that Diogenes was shagging his wife
  • RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    I'm guessing simply throwing money at it won't miraculously make it better.
    Why would spending more money on it not make it better?
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    Anyone else think Matt Hancock sounded like an absolute moron today? "Don't waste PPE"......as if nurses are using it to wipe their arses with. Idiot.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    I'm guessing simply throwing money at it won't miraculously make it better.
    Why would spending more money on it not make it better?
    Because the NHS is a bottomless pit when it comes to money.
  • nico67 said:

    The latest on the inane drivel now masquerading as news .

    Johnson is now well enough to do sudoku puzzles and watch the odd film. In tomorrow’s update we hear whether he went for the fish or meat main course !

    You don't have to listen to it if it upsets you so
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    I'm guessing simply throwing money at it won't miraculously make it better.
    Why would spending more money on it not make it better?
    Because the NHS is a bottomless pit when it comes to money.
    That's just meaningless - you could say the same about any organisation. In general, the more you spend on a health system, the better it becomes. The only obvious exception is the US.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1248715245486518272/photo/1

    "However, it is understood that Britons will be asked to consider whether social interactions - such as going to an office or visiting relatives - are necessary as part of a plan to live with the virus for many months, or even years. It is hoped that a plan to encourage social distancing to become voluntary will help a second wave emerging."

    Insane.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    edited April 2020
    RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    I'm guessing simply throwing money at it won't miraculously make it better.
    Of course it would make it better. Whether it would make it proportionally better, I doubt; there will be a level of diminishing returns.

    But the nation needs to consider what it values most: lower taxes and the opportunitiy to buy more 'stuff' and push up house prices, or better health and social care services.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,629

    RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    I'm guessing simply throwing money at it won't miraculously make it better.
    Why would spending more money on it not make it better?
    Because it never has in the past?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    edited April 2020
    RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    I'm guessing simply throwing money at it won't miraculously make it better.
    I expect to see much greater NHS and private sector cooperation in future

    This crisis has punctured the mantra about private sector involvement
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    The latest on the inane drivel now masquerading as news .

    Johnson is now well enough to do sudoku puzzles and watch the odd film. In tomorrow’s update we hear whether he went for the fish or meat main course !

    News regarding the PM's recovery is inane drivel?
    I really could care less what he’s upto in hospital . A simple he continues to improve would suffice . Do I really care whether he was scratching his arse , watching a film or reading a good book , no . This all looks unnecessary and trite when nearly a 1000 people died today !
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Normal life will stay on hold until a virus vaccine becomes available in about 18 months, officials said last night.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8209347/UK-live-restrictions-coronavirus-vaccine-developed-say-officials.html

    Its like the media never read the Imperial paper...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273

    Completely OT (well except for the lesson on how to treat gossip)

    Keep this in mind the next time you are about to repeat a rumour or spread gossip.

    In ancient Greece (469 - 399 BC), Socrates was widely lauded for his wisdom.

    One day an acquaintance ran up to him excitedly and said, "Socrates, do you know what I just heard about Diogenes?"

    "Wait a moment," Socrates replied, "Before you tell me I'd like you to pass a little test. It's called the Triple Filter Test."

    'Triple filter?" asked the acquaintance.

    "That's right," Socrates continued, "Before you talk to me about Diogenes let's take a moment to filter what you're going to say. The first filter is Truth. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about to tell me is true?"

    "No," the man said, "Actually I just heard about it."

    "All right," said Socrates, "So you don't really know if it's true or not. Now let's try the second filter, the filter of Goodness. Is what you are about to tell me about Diogenes something good?"

    "No, on the contrary..."

    "So," Socrates continued, "You want to tell me something about Diogenes that may be bad, even though you're not certain it's true?"
    The man shrugged, a little embarrassed. Socrates continued, "You may still pass the test though, because there is a third filter, the filter of Usefulness. Is what you want to tell me about Diogenes going to be useful to me?"

    "No, not really."

    "Well," concluded Socrates, "If what you want to tell me is neither True nor Good nor even Useful, why tell it to me or anyone at all?"

    The man was bewildered and ashamed. This is an example of why Socrates was a great philosopher and held in such high esteem.

    It also explains why Socrates never found out that Diogenes was shagging his wife

    Nice one!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    The latest on the inane drivel now masquerading as news .

    Johnson is now well enough to do sudoku puzzles and watch the odd film. In tomorrow’s update we hear whether he went for the fish or meat main course !

    News regarding the PM's recovery is inane drivel?
    I really could care less what he’s upto in hospital . A simple he continues to improve would suffice . Do I really care whether he was scratching his arse , watching a film or reading a good book , no . This all looks unnecessary and trite when nearly a 1000 people died today !
    No doubt the media would be complaining about a lack of information if that's all they said. You just can't win.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,957
    nico67 said:

    The latest on the inane drivel now masquerading as news .

    Johnson is now well enough to do sudoku puzzles and watch the odd film. In tomorrow’s update we hear whether he went for the fish or meat main course !

    America would LOVE to hear that their leader was smart enough to do a Sudoku puzzle....
  • nunu2 said:

    Anyone else think Matt Hancock sounded like an absolute moron today? "Don't waste PPE"......as if nurses are using it to wipe their arses with. Idiot.

    Not really
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    nunu2 said:
    Damned more sentient than the President.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1248715245486518272/photo/1

    "However, it is understood that Britons will be asked to consider whether social interactions - such as going to an office or visiting relatives - are necessary as part of a plan to live with the virus for many months, or even years. It is hoped that a plan to encourage social distancing to become voluntary will help a second wave emerging."

    Insane.

    Yeah I for one will not be complying if they try to force us to do this for months. We cannot allow ourselves to sleep walk into a police state.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273

    Normal life will stay on hold until a virus vaccine becomes available in about 18 months, officials said last night.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8209347/UK-live-restrictions-coronavirus-vaccine-developed-say-officials.html

    Its like the media never read the Imperial paper...

    It has lots of numbers in it - you can't expect the average hack to cope with numbers.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1248715245486518272/photo/1

    "However, it is understood that Britons will be asked to consider whether social interactions - such as going to an office or visiting relatives - are necessary as part of a plan to live with the virus for many months, or even years. It is hoped that a plan to encourage social distancing to become voluntary will help a second wave emerging."

    Insane.

    It was all in the Imperial paper...the media are reporting this as if it has been some super top secret plan, that has been carefully kept under wraps.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2020

    RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    I'm guessing simply throwing money at it won't miraculously make it better.
    I expect to see much greater NHS and private sector cooperation in future

    This crisis has punctured the mantra about private sector involvement
    You know hope so, but I don't think it will. At the best of times trying to reform the NHS is met with total resistance, after this, no politician will dare to say it can be improved in any way other than more money.

    My Swedish friends always think it is slightly odd that a lot of media commentators here hold up the high taxation social democratic model as what we should aim for, without mentioning that there is loads of private involvement in providing public services. Most Swedes don't care who provides it, it is about is it any good and is it paid for out of their taxes.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273

    RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    I'm guessing simply throwing money at it won't miraculously make it better.
    I expect to see much greater NHS and private sector cooperation in future

    This crisis has punctured the mantra about private sector involvement
    What mantra is that Big_G?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,629
    nunu2 said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1248715245486518272/photo/1

    "However, it is understood that Britons will be asked to consider whether social interactions - such as going to an office or visiting relatives - are necessary as part of a plan to live with the virus for many months, or even years. It is hoped that a plan to encourage social distancing to become voluntary will help a second wave emerging."

    Insane.

    Yeah I for one will not be complying if they try to force us to do this for months. We cannot allow ourselves to sleep walk into a police state.
    Then like other european countries they will no doubt put in jail sentences for non compliance
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    Are you advocating we increase spending by 20% per head on healthcare?
  • nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    The latest on the inane drivel now masquerading as news .

    Johnson is now well enough to do sudoku puzzles and watch the odd film. In tomorrow’s update we hear whether he went for the fish or meat main course !

    News regarding the PM's recovery is inane drivel?
    I really could care less what he’s upto in hospital . A simple he continues to improve would suffice . Do I really care whether he was scratching his arse , watching a film or reading a good book , no . This all looks unnecessary and trite when nearly a 1000 people died today !
    Maybe as you do not support Boris your judgment is somewhat biased
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,957

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    The latest on the inane drivel now masquerading as news .

    Johnson is now well enough to do sudoku puzzles and watch the odd film. In tomorrow’s update we hear whether he went for the fish or meat main course !

    News regarding the PM's recovery is inane drivel?

    Which 'odd film' did he watch, I wonder?
    Herzog's "Even Dwarves Started Small"

    That is one odd film.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Pre Starmer election so last poll with Corbyn as Labour leader
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    I'm guessing simply throwing money at it won't miraculously make it better.
    Why would spending more money on it not make it better?
    Because the NHS is a bottomless pit when it comes to money.
    That's just meaningless - you could say the same about any organisation. In general, the more you spend on a health system, the better it becomes. The only obvious exception is the US.
    Surely, with any system, where at least one aspect of it is finite, the more you put in of other resources, at some point you don't just get diminishing returns, you get paralysis.
    My wife's operating room yesterday had its first non-COVID COVID-caused death. A patient with a stomach ulcer he did not go to see the doctor about until too late because of COVID - perforated his stomach and pancreas, died of blood loss in the operating room.

    There will be a growing number of non-COVID COVID-caused medical deaths the longer the lock down goes on.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    TGOHF666 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    When the right learns to stop worrying and love Europe.
    Seems the South Korean system is better than the German one #notEurope
    It's the South Korean surveillance system that beats Germany's, not their health system.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,957

    Normal life will stay on hold until a virus vaccine becomes available in about 18 months, officials said last night.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8209347/UK-live-restrictions-coronavirus-vaccine-developed-say-officials.html

    Its like the media never read the Imperial paper...

    It has lots of numbers in it - you can't expect the average hack to cope with numbers.
    What, a Sudoku?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    nunu2 said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1248715245486518272/photo/1

    "However, it is understood that Britons will be asked to consider whether social interactions - such as going to an office or visiting relatives - are necessary as part of a plan to live with the virus for many months, or even years. It is hoped that a plan to encourage social distancing to become voluntary will help a second wave emerging."

    Insane.

    Yeah I for one will not be complying if they try to force us to do this for months. We cannot allow ourselves to sleep walk into a police state.
    The government needs to be much clearer about its overall game plan. The public knows this is going to be bloody awful and is ready to be led accordingly. Its willingness, however, will sooner or later be dependent on being able to see that there is a strategy from the top and not just reactivity.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    nunu2 said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1248715245486518272/photo/1

    "However, it is understood that Britons will be asked to consider whether social interactions - such as going to an office or visiting relatives - are necessary as part of a plan to live with the virus for many months, or even years. It is hoped that a plan to encourage social distancing to become voluntary will help a second wave emerging."

    Insane.

    Yeah I for one will not be complying if they try to force us to do this for months. We cannot allow ourselves to sleep walk into a police state.
    You'll be sleep walking into prison then. :wink:
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    At the moment they are advertising for diversity and inclusion staff - salary over double that being paid nurses

    Money is important, but so is a decent set of priorities
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,957
    Herald in to the moth trap lure tonight. Smart looking moths. They hibernate in tunnels over winter.


  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    https://twitter.com/bbcstudios/status/1248700082515587078

    Odd story from BBC donating ventilators from Holby City to UWE field hosptial.

    Takes set realism to a new height.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279

    nunu2 said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1248715245486518272/photo/1

    "However, it is understood that Britons will be asked to consider whether social interactions - such as going to an office or visiting relatives - are necessary as part of a plan to live with the virus for many months, or even years. It is hoped that a plan to encourage social distancing to become voluntary will help a second wave emerging."

    Insane.

    Yeah I for one will not be complying if they try to force us to do this for months. We cannot allow ourselves to sleep walk into a police state.
    You'll be sleep walking into prison then. :wink:
    I'll do the same. They can't arrest everyone.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,911
    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    The latest on the inane drivel now masquerading as news .

    Johnson is now well enough to do sudoku puzzles and watch the odd film. In tomorrow’s update we hear whether he went for the fish or meat main course !

    News regarding the PM's recovery is inane drivel?
    I really could care less what he’s upto in hospital.
    You mean you COULDN'T care less?
  • RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    I'm guessing simply throwing money at it won't miraculously make it better.
    I expect to see much greater NHS and private sector cooperation in future

    This crisis has punctured the mantra about private sector involvement
    What mantra is that Big_G?
    Corbyn and the left rabbit on constantly about private involvement in the NHS

    I would suggest that has been superceded by the all round cooperation for covid with lots of lessons learnt and pointing a way to the future for the NHS
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    TimT said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    I'm guessing simply throwing money at it won't miraculously make it better.
    Why would spending more money on it not make it better?
    Because the NHS is a bottomless pit when it comes to money.
    That's just meaningless - you could say the same about any organisation. In general, the more you spend on a health system, the better it becomes. The only obvious exception is the US.
    Surely, with any system, where at least one aspect of it is finite, the more you put in of other resources, at some point you don't just get diminishing returns, you get paralysis.
    My wife's operating room yesterday had its first non-COVID COVID-caused death. A patient with a stomach ulcer he did not go to see the doctor about until too late because of COVID - perforated his stomach and pancreas, died of blood loss in the operating room.

    There will be a growing number of non-COVID COVID-caused medical deaths the longer the lock down goes on.
    Is that because of lock down, or fear of catching COVID at a hospital?

    My wife and I discussed health issues early on in this pandemic and both agreed we would not be attending hospital unless we felt we had no option.

    Nothing in the lock down here would stop us going to seek medical attention if needed as I understand it
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    nunu2 said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1248715245486518272/photo/1

    "However, it is understood that Britons will be asked to consider whether social interactions - such as going to an office or visiting relatives - are necessary as part of a plan to live with the virus for many months, or even years. It is hoped that a plan to encourage social distancing to become voluntary will help a second wave emerging."

    Insane.

    Yeah I for one will not be complying if they try to force us to do this for months. We cannot allow ourselves to sleep walk into a police state.
    "Encourage...to become voluntary" does not mean "force".
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    The latest on the inane drivel now masquerading as news .

    Johnson is now well enough to do sudoku puzzles and watch the odd film. In tomorrow’s update we hear whether he went for the fish or meat main course !

    News regarding the PM's recovery is inane drivel?
    I really could care less what he’s upto in hospital.
    You mean you COULDN'T care less?
    LOL, time to watch that clip again.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    nunu2 said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1248715245486518272/photo/1

    "However, it is understood that Britons will be asked to consider whether social interactions - such as going to an office or visiting relatives - are necessary as part of a plan to live with the virus for many months, or even years. It is hoped that a plan to encourage social distancing to become voluntary will help a second wave emerging."

    Insane.

    Yeah I for one will not be complying if they try to force us to do this for months. We cannot allow ourselves to sleep walk into a police state.
    Hopefully, the Treasury will be kicking back on this kite flying.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    I'm guessing simply throwing money at it won't miraculously make it better.
    I expect to see much greater NHS and private sector cooperation in future

    This crisis has punctured the mantra about private sector involvement
    What mantra is that Big_G?
    Corbyn and the left rabbit on constantly about private involvement in the NHS

    I would suggest that has been superceded by the all round cooperation for covid with lots of lessons learnt and pointing a way to the future for the NHS
    Private health have de facto been nationalised.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    Floater said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    At the moment they are advertising for diversity and inclusion staff - salary over double that being paid nurses

    Money is important, but so is a decent set of priorities
    It's hardly surprising that an organisation with over 1.5m employees has some people dedicated to impriving diversity and inclusion.

    Presumably you'd be fine with a properly funded NHS if they just dropped these roles?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,227
    Trump vs COVID-19*

    The Creep versus The Crud
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    edited April 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    nunu2 said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1248715245486518272/photo/1

    "However, it is understood that Britons will be asked to consider whether social interactions - such as going to an office or visiting relatives - are necessary as part of a plan to live with the virus for many months, or even years. It is hoped that a plan to encourage social distancing to become voluntary will help a second wave emerging."

    Insane.

    Yeah I for one will not be complying if they try to force us to do this for months. We cannot allow ourselves to sleep walk into a police state.
    You'll be sleep walking into prison then. :wink:
    I'll do the same. They can't arrest everyone.
    Exactly. There are millions like us. And you say they can't arrest everyone, theres not enough room in the jails ......

    People are happy to do this for while, but not if they think their politicians are taking the piss and using this as an excuse to take away freedoms, which some police forces epecially seem all too keen to do.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,957
    dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/bbcstudios/status/1248700082515587078

    Odd story from BBC donating ventilators from Holby City to UWE field hosptial.

    Takes set realism to a new height.

    The quid pro quo is that when they start filming again, they get to borrow some proper patients....
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    Andy_JS said:

    nunu2 said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1248715245486518272/photo/1

    "However, it is understood that Britons will be asked to consider whether social interactions - such as going to an office or visiting relatives - are necessary as part of a plan to live with the virus for many months, or even years. It is hoped that a plan to encourage social distancing to become voluntary will help a second wave emerging."

    Insane.

    Yeah I for one will not be complying if they try to force us to do this for months. We cannot allow ourselves to sleep walk into a police state.
    You'll be sleep walking into prison then. :wink:
    I'll do the same. They can't arrest everyone.
    Nope. Just you and @nunu2 .
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2020
    Interesting point I haven't heard been made, by Bill Gates in an interview yesterday.

    He says shear testing capacity isn't really the key and "test, test, test" is far too simplistic approach. Reactive testing of people complaining of symptoms is of limited use.

    South Korea has it best, because they have a unified system, where they are extremely adept at working out who to test next and speed of results. Not just simple contact tracing, but working out where to look next.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    Who the fuck is running the government comms?

    For days the message has been stay at home this Easter, the weather will be great, we know its a nightmare but you must sacrifice and grit your teeth and stay at home.

    Tonight it seems the message has been allowed to be: this will go on for a year.

    What do the human behaviour modellers think might be the response to that?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    News from Sweden (Karolinska)

    80 plus - no intensive care

    60 plus and "significant failure in 1 or more organ systems - no intensive care

    Plus plenty of rumblings that they might need to change course re social distancing
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Floater said:

    News from Sweden (Karolinska)

    80 plus - no intensive care

    60 plus and "significant failure in 1 or more organ systems - no intensive care

    Plus plenty of rumblings that they might need to change course re social distancing

    Are you saying that is the policy? Oldies don't get ICU?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Floater said:

    TimT said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    I'm guessing simply throwing money at it won't miraculously make it better.
    Why would spending more money on it not make it better?
    Because the NHS is a bottomless pit when it comes to money.
    That's just meaningless - you could say the same about any organisation. In general, the more you spend on a health system, the better it becomes. The only obvious exception is the US.
    Surely, with any system, where at least one aspect of it is finite, the more you put in of other resources, at some point you don't just get diminishing returns, you get paralysis.
    My wife's operating room yesterday had its first non-COVID COVID-caused death. A patient with a stomach ulcer he did not go to see the doctor about until too late because of COVID - perforated his stomach and pancreas, died of blood loss in the operating room.

    There will be a growing number of non-COVID COVID-caused medical deaths the longer the lock down goes on.
    Is that because of lock down, or fear of catching COVID at a hospital?

    My wife and I discussed health issues early on in this pandemic and both agreed we would not be attending hospital unless we felt we had no option.

    Nothing in the lock down here would stop us going to seek medical attention if needed as I understand it
    Excellent point. Not "the longer the lockdown goes on" but "the longer people continue to catch COVID."
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    Pagan2 said:

    nunu2 said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1248715245486518272/photo/1

    "However, it is understood that Britons will be asked to consider whether social interactions - such as going to an office or visiting relatives - are necessary as part of a plan to live with the virus for many months, or even years. It is hoped that a plan to encourage social distancing to become voluntary will help a second wave emerging."

    Insane.

    Yeah I for one will not be complying if they try to force us to do this for months. We cannot allow ourselves to sleep walk into a police state.
    Then like other european countries they will no doubt put in jail sentences for non compliance
    Which defeats the purpose of social distancing, our jails are packed!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,053
    Jonathan said:

    RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    I'm guessing simply throwing money at it won't miraculously make it better.
    I expect to see much greater NHS and private sector cooperation in future

    This crisis has punctured the mantra about private sector involvement
    What mantra is that Big_G?
    Corbyn and the left rabbit on constantly about private involvement in the NHS

    I would suggest that has been superceded by the all round cooperation for covid with lots of lessons learnt and pointing a way to the future for the NHS
    Private health have de facto been nationalised.
    Indeed, across most of the country it is Impossible to be seen privately for anything.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    nunu2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    nunu2 said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1248715245486518272/photo/1

    "However, it is understood that Britons will be asked to consider whether social interactions - such as going to an office or visiting relatives - are necessary as part of a plan to live with the virus for many months, or even years. It is hoped that a plan to encourage social distancing to become voluntary will help a second wave emerging."

    Insane.

    Yeah I for one will not be complying if they try to force us to do this for months. We cannot allow ourselves to sleep walk into a police state.
    You'll be sleep walking into prison then. :wink:
    I'll do the same. They can't arrest everyone.
    Exactly. There are millions like us. And you say they can't arrest everyone, theres not enough room in the jails ......

    People are happy to do this for while, but not if they think their politicians are taking the piss and using this as an excuse to take away freedoms, which some police forces epecially seem all too keen to do.
    You really think politicians are doing this because they fancy taking away freedoms, rather than because the available science suggests this is the best way to manage Covid-19?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Floater said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    So the German system is better than the NHS ?

    When do we scrap the NHS and copy the German system?

    May not be easy and possibly not even advisable to 'copy' the whole shebang, but it may be useful to look at certain issues and take some ideas away from that.
    Like level of funding for example.
    At the moment they are advertising for diversity and inclusion staff - salary over double that being paid nurses

    Money is important, but so is a decent set of priorities
    It's hardly surprising that an organisation with over 1.5m employees has some people dedicated to impriving diversity and inclusion.

    Presumably you'd be fine with a properly funded NHS if they just dropped these roles?
    I want them to have a proper set of priorities

    Money goes further if spent on the most important things does it not?

  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Floater said:

    News from Sweden (Karolinska)

    80 plus - no intensive care

    60 plus and "significant failure in 1 or more organ systems - no intensive care

    Plus plenty of rumblings that they might need to change course re social distancing

    Are you saying that is the policy? Oldies don't get ICU?
    And how popular is their chief scientist now?
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