I guess I am pretty contemptuous of isam's way of expressing himself sometimes. His fixations on race, leftie conspiracies and white working class victimhood can get rather tedious. As someone born into a working class family I never considered myself a victim. But I don't see isam as representative of UKIP. I like to think I engage with most on here courteously and seriously.
I think you're always polite and courteous. On occasion you simply don't engage with counter-arguments, which is what I think TOPPING is talking about, but that seems like the most minor of things.
I try to always respond to counter arguments when I see them, just for the sake of intellectual honesty. I probably fail to be as polite as you are, but I like to think I'm only impolite to those handful of posters that are constantly rude to others. Unfortunately, the only way bullies learn is to see what it's like to be on the other side of it.
@Topping - if you believe an opinion is wrong, then you should say so. I disagree with iSam so I tell him I do. I find his fixation on race bizarre. That's not me calling him a racist; I don't think he is. It's me saying it's all a bit more complicated than that. As far as I can tell there is only one poster on here who does flirt with racist ideas, and who pops up every now and again to talk about gangs and bankstas, but he is the exception. Neither do I think UKIP is a racist party. It is thriving in the way the BNP never did precisely because it isn't. For me as someone on the centre left the way to take on UKIP is not to throw insults at them, it's to point out they are a neo-liberal party in which most right wing Tory MPs would sit very comfortably. That's what the argument should be about.
"Perhaps we should remind our colleagues on PB of Gibson's Law that anyone who mentions Bannockburn on a Scottish indy discussion automatically loses the debate."
Or indeed Culloden, because its not the heats that count its the final.
What a surprising comment - it certainly made me stop and think (not that I mentioned it ...). I don't think it qualifies, however, as although it was in one sense a Scottish civil war, it was at root a UK dynastic squabble - roughly the equivalent of Messrs Cameron vs Miliband. The two kings, after all, sent their sons to command at Drummossie Muir ...
haha and this is the person who said that the July marches are similar to a bonfire party on Wandsworth common.
But, and I have no intention of reprising our discussion from the other night, much as I appreciate that you would like to think of NI now as being at the sunlit upland end of societal behaviour, the reality is that those 1973 emotions are not very far below the surface.
My point was that there was no amnesty from the GFA so the UK Govt and Gerry Adams operated as though there was one. It was a lie but a workable one and now the PSNI have called the bluff.
My view is that that is a mistake. I'm really not sure what your view is save that you are a local and therefore have an unparalleled and far more insightful view of what is happening.
Like a frog in a well, in fact.
My view is quite simple there is either an amnesty for all or an amnesty for none. SF are currently trying to play they get off scot free and everyone else has to account for what they did. That won't work as no-one else will put up with it. So if you want a settlement rather than do a Blair and cave in to everything there comes a time to call their bluff. Do that and there's a better chance of a lasting peace.
"SF are currently trying to play they get off scot-free"
who the hell are Gerry Adams and Martin McG for heaven's sake?
They are in power. Or are at the moment - who knows what surprises UK Govt/PSNI have in store for them.
The GFA tested what was at the very limit of what anyone could put up with and that didn't include amnesties. And yet you want to make it more rigorous for a "lasting peace".
Ho hum. Mr Adams s is 65 in a few years he will have retired, SF have a whole generation of politicans capable of running the show and in some cases impatient with the leadership to retire. The people who would actually do the shooting ie republican dissidents don't like Adams and won't take their lead from him.
AveryLP " Good old Nigel who you could have a drink with down the pub, probably wouldn't want to sit next to an oik like you anyway, because you, unlike him, would not have been able to afford to go to the £10k a year school that Nigel was educated in"
If we shouldn't vote for a party that has privately educated leaders. Who is there left to vote for?
I would think that unless the schoolboy Nigel was getting far to much pocket money at the time that he couldn't afford it either.
Many conservatives have argued (quite rightly as well) that condemning someone for the choices their parents made such as which school to send them to is quite frankly ridiculous. Anyone who is a member of such a party that is subject to frequent attacks on its leaders yet still feels they should turn around and accuse other politicians of the same "crime" is not to mince words an idiot
Indeed, I was trying to point out what utter drivel the list of 100 reasons is.
It was an informal arrangement. Which has now been broken.
Fortunately, we live in a system where the executive cannot under the colour of law enter into informal agreements with terrorists. The police are crown servants, responsible to the law alone. All indictments are presented in the name of, and on behalf of the crown. Should independent investigating and prosecuting authorities unlawfully have regard to such "informal arrangements"? Surely not. Then all it will take to stop a man being put on trial for murder is a from Downing Street. The Bill of Rights condemned the practice of 'Assumeing and Exerciseing a Power of Dispensing with and Suspending of Lawes and the Execution of Lawes without Consent of Parlyament.' It went on to provide that
Noe Dispensation by Non obstante of or to any Statute or any part thereof shall be allowed but the same shall be held void and of noe effect Except a Dispensation be allowed of in such Statute.
Let us take our stand on the constitutional traditions of England, not Stuart despotism.
yeah all that.
But sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to achieve a greater good and in this instance, although I can't think how on earth they would have done it, the greater good was peace in NI.
And even though @Alanbrooke and @Y0kel think that NI is similar in social cohesion to Eastbourne but with worse weather, the reality is that things are still very volatile.
Give me the 1744 judicial precedent on that one....
As I said to you the other night the average NI teenager has no direct experience of terrorism.
Yep I saw that on the TV. Are the "Loyalist Blackskulls" a basketball team?
There are organised gangs who do demos on demand and like a bit of looting. they haven't killed anyone. Unlike the style same gangs on the mainland two years ago.
AveryLP " Good old Nigel who you could have a drink with down the pub, probably wouldn't want to sit next to an oik like you anyway, because you, unlike him, would not have been able to afford to go to the £10k a year school that Nigel was educated in"
If we shouldn't vote for a party that has privately educated leaders. Who is there left to vote for?
I would think that unless the schoolboy Nigel was getting far to much pocket money at the time that he couldn't afford it either.
Many conservatives have argued (quite rightly as well) that condemning someone for the choices their parents made such as which school to send them to is quite frankly ridiculous. Anyone who is a member of such a party that is subject to frequent attacks on its leaders yet still feels they should turn around and accuse other politicians of the same "crime" is not to mince words an idiot
Indeed, I was trying to point out what utter drivel the list of 100 reasons is.
Should have mentioned my reply was actually directed at the AveryLP quote your post contained and that I was far to lazy to go and find and reply to directly
@Topping - if you believe an opinion is wrong, then you should say so. I disagree with iSam so I tell him I do. I find his fixation on race bizarre. That's not me calling him a racist; I don't think he is. It's me saying it's all a bit more complicated than that. As far as I can tell there is only one poster on here who does flirt with racist ideas, and who pops up every now and again to talk about gangs and bankstas, but he is the exception. Neither do I think UKIP is a racist party. It is thriving in the way the BNP never did precisely because it isn't. For me as someone on the centre left the way to take on UKIP is not to throw insults at them, it's to point out they are a neo-liberal party in which most right wing Tory MPs would sit very comfortably. That's what the argument should be about.
What's a banksta?
Basically, if you believe the world is run - not from Westminster, or Brussels, or Moscow, or Washington DC - but from the boardroom of Goldman Sachs, then you believe in Bankstas.
@Topping - if you believe an opinion is wrong, then you should say so. I disagree with iSam so I tell him I do. I find his fixation on race bizarre. That's not me calling him a racist; I don't think he is. It's me saying it's all a bit more complicated than that. As far as I can tell there is only one poster on here who does flirt with racist ideas, and who pops up every now and again to talk about gangs and bankstas, but he is the exception. Neither do I think UKIP is a racist party. It is thriving in the way the BNP never did precisely because it isn't. For me as someone on the centre left the way to take on UKIP is not to throw insults at them, it's to point out they are a neo-liberal party in which most right wing Tory MPs would sit very comfortably. That's what the argument should be about.
What's a banksta?
Basically, if you believe the world is run - not from Westminster, or Brussels, or Moscow, or Washington DC - but from the boardroom of Goldman Sachs, then you believe in Bankstas.
@Topping - if you believe an opinion is wrong, then you should say so. I disagree with iSam so I tell him I do. I find his fixation on race bizarre. That's not me calling him a racist; I don't think he is. It's me saying it's all a bit more complicated than that. As far as I can tell there is only one poster on here who does flirt with racist ideas, and who pops up every now and again to talk about gangs and bankstas, but he is the exception. Neither do I think UKIP is a racist party. It is thriving in the way the BNP never did precisely because it isn't. For me as someone on the centre left the way to take on UKIP is not to throw insults at them, it's to point out they are a neo-liberal party in which most right wing Tory MPs would sit very comfortably. That's what the argument should be about.
What's a banksta?
It's a guy directing a reversing lorry in the hood.
@Topping - if you believe an opinion is wrong, then you should say so. I disagree with iSam so I tell him I do. I find his fixation on race bizarre. That's not me calling him a racist; I don't think he is. It's me saying it's all a bit more complicated than that. As far as I can tell there is only one poster on here who does flirt with racist ideas, and who pops up every now and again to talk about gangs and bankstas, but he is the exception. Neither do I think UKIP is a racist party. It is thriving in the way the BNP never did precisely because it isn't. For me as someone on the centre left the way to take on UKIP is not to throw insults at them, it's to point out they are a neo-liberal party in which most right wing Tory MPs would sit very comfortably. That's what the argument should be about.
What's a banksta?
Basically, if you believe the world is run - not from Westminster, or Brussels, or Moscow, or Washington DC - but from the boardroom of Goldman Sachs, then you believe in Bankstas.
I don't think you need to believe in that to believe in banksters. You can just believe that the large banks are institutionally corrupt organisations that are regularly involved in borderline - or flat out - illegal activities, and have sufficient influence in Westminster, Moscow and DC that they repeatedly get away with it.
Really rather looking forward to the resumption of F1 this coming Friday. Just about everyone will be bringing significant updates, and will be able to more easily update their cars during this period of the season (most races are in Europe, where distances are likelier in hundreds rather than thousands of miles).
However, it's worth considering that Renault and Ferrari engines may narrow the gap to mighty Mercedes with fancy software updates. They won't be able to get close to the Silver Arrows themselves, though, due to the swanky mechanical set up of the engine (I believe this has now been frozen, so other teams can't copy that now even if they could overcome the technical challenges).
Mr. Max's comments regarding the McLaren potentially having the most scope for improvement are something I'll bear in mind. Red Bull are also in good shape.
It's very nicely poised.
Worth recalling that Spain isn't filled with long straights, so we'd expect the Mercedes to not have quite the comedically huge advantage there as they had in, say, Bahrain.
@Topping - if you believe an opinion is wrong, then you should say so. I disagree with iSam so I tell him I do. I find his fixation on race bizarre. That's not me calling him a racist; I don't think he is. It's me saying it's all a bit more complicated than that. As far as I can tell there is only one poster on here who does flirt with racist ideas, and who pops up every now and again to talk about gangs and bankstas, but he is the exception. Neither do I think UKIP is a racist party. It is thriving in the way the BNP never did precisely because it isn't. For me as someone on the centre left the way to take on UKIP is not to throw insults at them, it's to point out they are a neo-liberal party in which most right wing Tory MPs would sit very comfortably. That's what the argument should be about.
What's a banksta?
It's a guy directing a reversing lorry in the hood.
The trouble is... your generation were lucky to have better schooling, easy to find jobs, and above all able to become rich by buying a house in high inflation times... and you do show a certain contempt for working class kids now.
"Perhaps we should remind our colleagues on PB of Gibson's Law that anyone who mentions Bannockburn on a Scottish indy discussion automatically loses the debate."
Or indeed Culloden, because its not the heats that count its the final.
What a surprising comment - it certainly made me stop and think (not that I mentioned it ...). I don't think it qualifies, however, as although it was in one sense a Scottish civil war, it was at root a UK dynastic squabble - roughly the equivalent of Messrs Cameron vs Miliband. The two kings, after all, sent their sons to command at Drummossie Muir ...
You could say similar things about Bannockburn. Scots fought on both sides.
Oh x 2 on Gerry Adams, Prof Tonge on the BBC clarified the last remaining piece of the puzzle for me.
It seems that an "amnesty" (for those yet to be convicted) simply wouldn't have flown in NI with the electorate and the politicians so the UK Govt operated as though there was one to get the GFA through and hoped the details would sort themselves out subsequently.
Hence Gerry Adams couldn't ever say "yes" to any incriminating question (a la SA truth & reconciliation) because he wasn't assured immunity from prosecution because the GFA didn't allow for t. But de facto there was an amnesty and now for some idiotic reason, that understanding has been ignored by PSNI (and...?).
Not such a great example for future "peacemakers".
I've always found clarity to be vital, when negotiating a compromise. The PSNI can't be expected to adhere to something that was never agreed by the parties to negotiation.
Effectively, the British Government in the form of the PSNI have reneged on an understanding without which there would not have been peace in the first place.
How do we know that the Queen's dinner guest will not be next ?
An "understanding" is not binding on any person other than the one who offers it. If Sinn Fein are upset, let them take it up with whoever offered the understanding.
@Topping - if you believe an opinion is wrong, then you should say so. I disagree with iSam so I tell him I do. I find his fixation on race bizarre. That's not me calling him a racist; I don't think he is. It's me saying it's all a bit more complicated than that. As far as I can tell there is only one poster on here who does flirt with racist ideas, and who pops up every now and again to talk about gangs and bankstas, but he is the exception. Neither do I think UKIP is a racist party. It is thriving in the way the BNP never did precisely because it isn't. For me as someone on the centre left the way to take on UKIP is not to throw insults at them, it's to point out they are a neo-liberal party in which most right wing Tory MPs would sit very comfortably. That's what the argument should be about.
What's a banksta?
It's a guy directing a reversing lorry in the hood.
Nicely done!
Thanks. I should have guessed that you'd get it!
For some reason, whenever I see 'Banksta' used it's the first thing that comes into my head. Probably the sign of a mis-spent youth... ;-)
Isn't the border between Gaza and Egypt open to import anything? What is the point of a flotilla in this context?
The sad thing about the border wall is that it has worked. The bus and bar bombings have stopped in Israel.
It is also worthy of note that Israel has about a million Arab citizens that are richer and better educated than the surrounding countries. Israel is the safest country in the area to be a woman, gay, Christian, Bahai or even a moderate muslim. It is the only one with free elections. Israel is a paradox. If your neighbours were Lebanon, Syria, Palestine and Egypt wouldn't you be a teensy bit sensitive to security issues.
Ten years ago I ran a teaching course in the West Bank, including visits to Jericho and Hebron. The Palestinians were very hospitable. The Israeli security were very hostile to me when they found out where I had been, but thoroughly searched me politely. The behaviour of the militant settlers in Hebron was very provocative. It was a very interesting trip.
"Perhaps we should remind our colleagues on PB of Gibson's Law that anyone who mentions Bannockburn on a Scottish indy discussion automatically loses the debate."
Or indeed Culloden, because its not the heats that count its the final.
What a surprising comment - it certainly made me stop and think (not that I mentioned it ...). I don't think it qualifies, however, as although it was in one sense a Scottish civil war, it was at root a UK dynastic squabble - roughly the equivalent of Messrs Cameron vs Miliband. The two kings, after all, sent their sons to command at Drummossie Muir ...
You could say similar things about Bannockburn. Scots fought on both sides.
John Balliol's son briefly reconquered Scotland (with Scottish and English support) 20 years after Bannockburn.
"Perhaps we should remind our colleagues on PB of Gibson's Law that anyone who mentions Bannockburn on a Scottish indy discussion automatically loses the debate."
Or indeed Culloden, because its not the heats that count its the final.
What a surprising comment - it certainly made me stop and think (not that I mentioned it ...). I don't think it qualifies, however, as although it was in one sense a Scottish civil war, it was at root a UK dynastic squabble - roughly the equivalent of Messrs Cameron vs Miliband. The two kings, after all, sent their sons to command at Drummossie Muir ...
You could say similar things about Bannockburn. Scots fought on both sides.
Not sure that applies - it's not as if it were a fight for the English throne. But yes, there was most certainly an element of Scots civil war in 1214 (as, to be sure, there is in many military occupations).
Oh x 2 on Gerry Adams, Prof Tonge on the BBC clarified the last remaining piece of the puzzle for me.
It seems that an "amnesty" (for those yet to be convicted) simply wouldn't have flown in NI with the electorate and the politicians so the UK Govt operated as though there was one to get the GFA through and hoped the details would sort themselves out subsequently.
Hence Gerry Adams couldn't ever say "yes" to any incriminating question (a la SA truth & reconciliation) because he wasn't assured immunity from prosecution because the GFA didn't allow for t. But de facto there was an amnesty and now for some idiotic reason, that understanding has been ignored by PSNI (and...?).
Not such a great example for future "peacemakers".
I've always found clarity to be vital, when negotiating a compromise. The PSNI can't be expected to adhere to something that was never agreed by the parties to negotiation.
Effectively, the British Government in the form of the PSNI have reneged on an understanding without which there would not have been peace in the first place.
How do we know that the Queen's dinner guest will not be next ?
"Perhaps we should remind our colleagues on PB of Gibson's Law that anyone who mentions Bannockburn on a Scottish indy discussion automatically loses the debate."
Or indeed Culloden, because its not the heats that count its the final.
What a surprising comment - it certainly made me stop and think (not that I mentioned it ...). I don't think it qualifies, however, as although it was in one sense a Scottish civil war, it was at root a UK dynastic squabble - roughly the equivalent of Messrs Cameron vs Miliband. The two kings, after all, sent their sons to command at Drummossie Muir ...
You could say similar things about Bannockburn. Scots fought on both sides.
Not sure that applies - it's not as if it were a fight for the English throne. But yes, there was most certainly an element of Scots civil war in 1214 (as, to be sure, there is in many military occupations).
I think it still works. There's also Flodden Field if you want to be traditional in your interpretation.
On other matters, a great piece on how "opting out" of big corporate data monitoring is now impossible:
We really need stronger government action to protect our privacy. Unfortunately, the current and previous governments of this country both jumped on the bandwagon rather than stood up for our rights.
Thank God for that long blog post about UKIP. My sister is a woman. I was initially going to vote UKIP because I believed it would mean the school system for her son would be less under pressure, and leaving the CAP would reduce grocery costs for her family. But I now see that one of their MEPs joked with some female friends about them being sluts for not cleaning their fridges. I'm definitely voting Labour now.
Don't be unfair. If I hadn't clicked through, I'd never have realised that Alex Hesketh had gone over to the dark side.
(The rest of the link was unfunny and tendentious)
Isn't the border between Gaza and Egypt open to import anything? What is the point of a flotilla in this context?
The sad thing about the border wall is that it has worked. The bus and bar bombings have stopped in Israel.
It is also worthy of note that Israel has about a million Arab citizens that are richer and better educated than the surrounding countries. Israel is the safest country in the area to be a woman, gay, Christian, Bahai or even a moderate muslim. It is the only one with free elections. Israel is a paradox. If your neighbours were Lebanon, Syria, Palestine and Egypt wouldn't you be a teensy bit sensitive to security issues.
Ten years ago I ran a teaching course in the West Bank, including visits to Jericho and Hebron. The Palestinians were very hospitable. The Israeli security were very hostile to me when they found out where I had been, but thoroughly searched me politely. The behaviour of the militant settlers in Hebron was very provocative. It was a very interesting trip.
Let us suppose, for argument's sake, that Mr Adams had been arrested by a sectarian police force, in part because of his fanatical papist superstition, his romanising and his mariolatry. Let us also suppose that there was sufficient admissible evidence to create a realistic prospect of conviction. Would you object to him being charged?
Oh x 2 on Gerry Adams, Prof Tonge on the BBC clarified the last remaining piece of the puzzle for me.
It seems that an "amnesty" (for those yet to be convicted) simply wouldn't have flown in NI with the electorate and the politicians so the UK Govt operated as though there was one to get the GFA through and hoped the details would sort themselves out subsequently.
Hence Gerry Adams couldn't ever say "yes" to any incriminating question (a la SA truth & reconciliation) because he wasn't assured immunity from prosecution because the GFA didn't allow for t. But de facto there was an amnesty and now for some idiotic reason, that understanding has been ignored by PSNI (and...?).
Not such a great example for future "peacemakers".
In general governments don't have a great record on these understandings - they last until they're inconvenient. When Gaddhafi gave up his WMD we praised him warmly, until the opportunity came to knife him. When Gorbachev asked for assurances that we wouldn't extend NATO to the Russian border if he broke up the east bloc, we said of course not, until we did.
It's all realpolitik and everyone does it, but no, it can't encourage insurgents pondering a cease-fire and offered the favour of great powers if they accept.
@Topping - if you believe an opinion is wrong, then you should say so. I disagree with iSam so I tell him I do. I find his fixation on race bizarre. That's not me calling him a racist; I don't think he is. It's me saying it's all a bit more complicated than that. As far as I can tell there is only one poster on here who does flirt with racist ideas, and who pops up every now and again to talk about gangs and bankstas, but he is the exception. Neither do I think UKIP is a racist party. It is thriving in the way the BNP never did precisely because it isn't. For me as someone on the centre left the way to take on UKIP is not to throw insults at them, it's to point out they are a neo-liberal party in which most right wing Tory MPs would sit very comfortably. That's what the argument should be about.
"Britain is still the money-laundering capital of the world, according to a special six-page investigation published in this fortnight’s Private Eye."
"When Private Eye asked one former policeman why the bankers aren’t getting arrested for money laundering, the answer was simple: ‘They are untouchable’."
"Speaking on the Marr Show on BBC One on March 23rd, the former Daily Telegraph editor and historian Max Hastings said a “senior central banker” recently told him that London is now considered to be the “money-laundering capital of the world”."
Oh x 2 on Gerry Adams, Prof Tonge on the BBC clarified the last remaining piece of the puzzle for me.
It seems that an "amnesty" (for those yet to be convicted) simply wouldn't have flown in NI with the electorate and the politicians so the UK Govt operated as though there was one to get the GFA through and hoped the details would sort themselves out subsequently.
Hence Gerry Adams couldn't ever say "yes" to any incriminating question (a la SA truth & reconciliation) because he wasn't assured immunity from prosecution because the GFA didn't allow for t. But de facto there was an amnesty and now for some idiotic reason, that understanding has been ignored by PSNI (and...?).
Not such a great example for future "peacemakers".
I've always found clarity to be vital, when negotiating a compromise. The PSNI can't be expected to adhere to something that was never agreed by the parties to negotiation.
Effectively, the British Government in the form of the PSNI have reneged on an understanding without which there would not have been peace in the first place.
How do we know that the Queen's dinner guest will not be next ?
I recently read an article which suggested a way out of the Palestinian/ Israeli impasse. It is the one state solution. The Palestinians say to the Israelis - OK, you have won, we'll become Israelis. Then in a few years time there is a Palestinian majority in Israel. In a plebiscite they agree to change the name of the country to Palestine - but with a constitution which protects religious minorities. Wishful thinking?
Oh x 2 on Gerry Adams, Prof Tonge on the BBC clarified the last remaining piece of the puzzle for me.
It seems that an "amnesty" (for those yet to be convicted) simply wouldn't have flown in NI with the electorate and the politicians so the UK Govt operated as though there was one to get the GFA through and hoped the details would sort themselves out subsequently.
Hence Gerry Adams couldn't ever say "yes" to any incriminating question (a la SA truth & reconciliation) because he wasn't assured immunity from prosecution because the GFA didn't allow for t. But de facto there was an amnesty and now for some idiotic reason, that understanding has been ignored by PSNI (and...?).
Not such a great example for future "peacemakers".
I've always found clarity to be vital, when negotiating a compromise. The PSNI can't be expected to adhere to something that was never agreed by the parties to negotiation.
Effectively, the British Government in the form of the PSNI have reneged on an understanding without which there would not have been peace in the first place.
How do we know that the Queen's dinner guest will not be next ?
British Government ≠ PSNI.
PSNI = PROTESTANT Service of Northern Ireland
Is Adams a hero to you?
Has his brother been released, he sounds a nice chap.
We've had Israel,Palestine and Ireland tonight.In such a global discussion Cyprus cannot be forgotten either.There's another tough nut to crack. I think recent developments could play well for Sinn Fein.Their leaders are now men of peace,not violence,and their point about Adams' arrest being politically motivated in an election could provoke sympathy and,if that were so,it has back-fired.This could well boost Sinn Fein's prospects. The 3 Euro seats are super skinny with SF at 1-6,1-6.1-7.There are also 2 by-elections on 23rd May.SF are 20-1 in 1 at Longford-Westmeath and the more likely one Dublin West at 7-2. We've seen in Scotland already how paradoxical and contrary politics in this day and age can be.Maybe this is the time to take a punt on Sinn Fein being the benefactors in the Republic.
I recently read an article which suggested a way out of the Palestinian/ Israeli impasse. It is the one state solution. The Palestinians say to the Israelis - OK, you have won, we'll become Israelis. Then in a few years time there is a Palestinian majority in Israel. In a plebiscite they agree to change the name of the country to Palestine - but with a constitution which protects religious minorities. Wishful thinking?
As nobody actually wants that, how can it be a case of "OK, you have won"?
Oh x 2 on Gerry Adams, Prof Tonge on the BBC clarified the last remaining piece of the puzzle for me.
It seems that an "amnesty" (for those yet to be convicted) simply wouldn't have flown in NI with the electorate and the politicians so the UK Govt operated as though there was one to get the GFA through and hoped the details would sort themselves out subsequently.
Hence Gerry Adams couldn't ever say "yes" to any incriminating question (a la SA truth & reconciliation) because he wasn't assured immunity from prosecution because the GFA didn't allow for t. But de facto there was an amnesty and now for some idiotic reason, that understanding has been ignored by PSNI (and...?).
Not such a great example for future "peacemakers".
In general governments don't have a great record on these understandings - they last until they're inconvenient. When Gaddhafi gave up his WMD we praised him warmly, until the opportunity came to knife him. When Gorbachev asked for assurances that we wouldn't extend NATO to the Russian border if he broke up the east bloc, we said of course not, until we did.
It's all realpolitik and everyone does it, but no, it can't encourage insurgents pondering a cease-fire and offered the favour of great powers if they accept.
Gaddafi was our enemy. Not sure why we wouldn't take the opportunity to stab him in the back. All's fair in love and war, y'know.
Now the Bear, we need to play with a lot more subtlety.
Oh x 2 on Gerry Adams, Prof Tonge on the BBC clarified the last remaining piece of the puzzle for me.
It seems that an "amnesty" (for those yet to be convicted) simply wouldn't have flown in NI with the electorate and the politicians so the UK Govt operated as though there was one to get the GFA through and hoped the details would sort themselves out subsequently.
Hence Gerry Adams couldn't ever say "yes" to any incriminating question (a la SA truth & reconciliation) because he wasn't assured immunity from prosecution because the GFA didn't allow for t. But de facto there was an amnesty and now for some idiotic reason, that understanding has been ignored by PSNI (and...?).
Not such a great example for future "peacemakers".
I've always found clarity to be vital, when negotiating a compromise. The PSNI can't be expected to adhere to something that was never agreed by the parties to negotiation.
Effectively, the British Government in the form of the PSNI have reneged on an understanding without which there would not have been peace in the first place.
How do we know that the Queen's dinner guest will not be next ?
British Government ≠ PSNI.
PSNI = PROTESTANT Service of Northern Ireland
A view that some use even now to justify murdering innocent people. Why anyone thinks Gerry Adams or any other politician should get a free pass for murder is beyond me.
Deary me, all this speculation from the Home Counties on this lovely bearded fella Gerry Adams.
If any of you read my post linking to an old BBC story (before any news of what the plan was for Gerry) in the previous thread showing some parallel history you would have picked out what the cops were actually on to him over, 1. membership of the IRA and 2. directing terrorism, exactly as they put on Johnny Adair, who was the subject of the article.
Anyone who listened to Gerry Adams would have heard exactly what he said was put to him by the cops which was his IRA membership and position in Belfast during the time when Jean McConville went missing. It fits very well with 1 & 2 above.
As I said at the time, what would have made the decision to charge now is not the words of the dead but the words of the living. In fact, the very much living who's words might be the biggest problem are those of a 65 year old man called Gerry Adams
Gerry's own stupidity and double speak may yet finish him (but apparently to political sophisticates the man's a genius) . As I mentioned to Sean T earlier on, the key to getting away with things over here is to fess up. Gerry of course never did anything so never fessed up.
Blunt reality after all the talk around it is this. Adams was a commander in the area where McConville lived, he would have gave the order for her beating and removal. Of course he didnt know at all about it, despite having his hands on some of McConville's personal items returned to her children after 'she ran away'.
Ironically the whole story about on the runs amnesty actually enabled the cops to successfully investigate Adams and bring him in. Why? Because there would be no calls from Downing Street after that clown car of an episode got out.
Meanwhile, I believe it was Topping concluded that it was ok to drop investigations into senior Republicans who used their position during the Troubles to abuse children, and I don't mean to give them a beating either. But thats ok, sexual abuse of children, no problem, it was part of the conflict, don't want to upset the peace process.
Dropping investigations into the UVF on the loyalist side was also a good idea apparently despite the fact that they are a scourge on the communities from which they come. They've put the guns down in killing Catholics but it's ok for them to control the drugs trade and generally throw the weight about.
Of course what no one noticed in the midst of all this because Gerry is a name is that there have been arrests regarding the loyalist bombing of a place called McGurks Bar in Belfast 40 or so years ago.
Didn't hear you witless middle class f**kers say that was a bad idea did you.
Labour must be very concerned about today's ICM poll putting them on 32%. Just 2 points higher than 2010.
Wisdom Index lol... What do you think other people think the weather will be like tomorrow?
You are far too complacent Mr Palmer . The wisdom index might be right.. Information from polling from whatever source should be considered and not dismissed...
You have been long saying that the Labour lead is sound.. and that people have made up their minds... that's complacent too.
Deary me, all this speculation from the Home Counties on this lovely bearded fella Gerry Adams.
If any of you read my post linking to an old BBC story (before any news of what the plan was for Gerry) in the previous thread showing some parallel history you would have picked out what the cops were actually on to him over, 1. membership of the IRA and 2. directing terrorism, exactly as they put on Johnny Adair, who was the subject of the article.
Anyone who listened to Gerry Adams would have heard exactly what he said was put to him by the cops which was his IRA membership and position in Belfast during the time when Jean McConville went missing. It fits very well with 1 & 2 above.
Blunt reality after all the talk around it is this. Adams was a commander in the area where McConville lived, he would have gave the order for her beating and removal. Of course he didnt know at all about it, despite having his hands on some of McConville's personal items returned to her children after 'she ran away'.
What are you afraid of, bombs in London again?
(snipped for length)
I think I may have mentioned on here before that in the early 70s my dad had Gerry Adams literally in his sights as he gave instructions to IRA members. Even at that time there were strict instructions not to shoot him unless he had his hands on a gun at the time. The suspicion is that he knew this because he was never seen to touch a weapon himself. He had already been identified as someone the UK government could do business with and used this to obtain personal protection that others did not have.
Given his role at the time the idea that he would not have had prior knowledge and given at least tacit consent to the murder seems very far fetched but proving actual involvement may be very difficult.
But I agree that he is of considerably less importance now with comparatively little influence. The problems with his brother have been very damaging.
I think I may have mentioned on here before that in the early 70s my dad had Gerry Adams literally in his sights as he gave instructions to IRA members. Even at that time there were strict instructions not to shoot him unless he had his hands on a gun at the time. The suspicion is that he knew this because he was never seen to touch a weapon himself. He had already been identified as someone the UK government could do business with and used this to obtain personal protection that others did not have.
Given his role at the time the idea that he would not have had prior knowledge and given at least tacit consent to the murder seems very far fetched but proving actual involvement may be very difficult.
But I agree that he is of considerably less importance now with comparatively little influence. The problems with his brother have been very damaging.
Thank you for that - currently living here, I was interested in your analysis, but did not find an answer to the question you posed, "how red are our valleys?"
The simple answer is that they will stay red because they are the home of benefitland. The main reasons why their ancestors came to the valleys over about 150 years ago - coal and iron ore - have gone and that employment has not been replaced. Indeed other manufacturing industries have also closed down. As the place has been greened over - there is fierce resistance to opening any new coal mines. The Welsh Government tends to throw money at this area - almost without thinking.
As you say, Plaid is left wing and so is fishing in the same pool (except for coastal west Wales) and is bereft of ideas excepting forcing more Welshness on a mainly unwilling population. However, it is noticeable that a lot of the better paid public sector jobs require fluency in Welsh (even though it spoken by only 23% of the population).
You say, "Wales, of course, has devolved government. This is, as it has been since its inception, Labour controlled. It is responsible for, among other things, education, health and the environment, so many of the subjects that are the subject of political debate for the Westminster election in England are of less pressing importance in Wales." Here I would disagree with you as there is much public anger about cuts in health services which results in poorer care and longer waiting lists and about the disgraceful performance in education from primary school to university. This could well have an impact outside the Valleys.
Ceredigion should stay Liberal as Mark Williams is a good MP; Brecon will probably stay Liberal as Roger Williams is a well-known farmer but will be 67 if he stands again. Montgomery should stay Conservative as Glyn Davies is a local man and has done well. Also it elected a Conservative AM in 2011, Russell George, who has promoted and won infrastructure improvements.
Also, when looking at Wales, it should be remembered that places as politically different as Ceredigion, Ynys Mon and Pembrokeshire have lots of Independents on their Councils.
Deary me, all this speculation from the Home Counties on this lovely bearded fella Gerry Adams.
Anyone who listened to Gerry Adams would have heard exactly what he said was put to him by the cops which was his IRA membership and position in Belfast during the time when Jean McConville went missing. It fits very well with 1 & 2 above.
Gerry's own stupidity and double speak may yet finish him (but apparently to political sophisticates the man's a genius) . As I mentioned to Sean T earlier on, the key to getting away with things over here is to fess up. Gerry of course never did anything so never fessed up.
Blunt reality after all the talk around it is this. Adams was a commander in the area where McConville lived, he would have gave the order for her beating and removal. Of course he didnt know at all about it, despite having his hands on some of McConville's personal items returned to her children after 'she ran away'.
Ironically the whole story about on the runs amnesty actually enabled the cops to successfully investigate Adams and bring him in. Why? Because there would be no calls from Downing Street after that clown car of an episode got out.
Meanwhile, I believe it was Topping concluded that it was ok to drop investigations into senior Republicans who used their position during the Troubles to abuse children, and I don't mean to give them a beating either. But thats ok, sexual abuse of children, no problem, it was part of the conflict, don't want to upset the peace process.
Dropping investigations into the UVF on the loyalist side was also a good idea apparently despite the fact that they are a scourge on the communities from which they come. They've put the guns down in killing Catholics but it's ok for them to control the drugs trade and generally throw the weight about.
Of course what no one noticed in the midst of all this because Gerry is a name is that there have been arrests regarding the loyalist bombing of a place called McGurks Bar in Belfast 40 or so years ago.
Didn't hear you witless middle class f**kers say that was a bad idea did you.
What are you afraid of, bombs in London again?
snipped for irrelevance dressed up as informed opinion.
What the f**k are you talking about? I didn't mention child abuse. I said that if the peace process is to have any chance then difficult decisions on both sides are needed when it comes to ex-terrorists. Gerry Adams as you say was one such and as the GFA didn't provide for amnesties of yet-to-be-caught terrorists just existing jailed ones then he didn't have anywhere to go.
You meanwhile? "On the ground" - LOL. God knows what you and @Alanbrooke want from your position of informed localness.
Comments
I try to always respond to counter arguments when I see them, just for the sake of intellectual honesty. I probably fail to be as polite as you are, but I like to think I'm only impolite to those handful of posters that are constantly rude to others. Unfortunately, the only way bullies learn is to see what it's like to be on the other side of it.
FPT: What a surprising comment - it certainly made me stop and think (not that I mentioned it ...). I don't think it qualifies, however, as although it was in one sense a Scottish civil war, it was at root a UK dynastic squabble - roughly the equivalent of Messrs Cameron vs Miliband. The two kings, after all, sent their sons to command at Drummossie Muir ...
There are organised gangs who do demos on demand and like a bit of looting. they haven't killed anyone. Unlike the style same gangs on the mainland two years ago.
Should have mentioned my reply was actually directed at the AveryLP quote your post contained and that I was far to lazy to go and find and reply to directly
Really rather looking forward to the resumption of F1 this coming Friday. Just about everyone will be bringing significant updates, and will be able to more easily update their cars during this period of the season (most races are in Europe, where distances are likelier in hundreds rather than thousands of miles).
However, it's worth considering that Renault and Ferrari engines may narrow the gap to mighty Mercedes with fancy software updates. They won't be able to get close to the Silver Arrows themselves, though, due to the swanky mechanical set up of the engine (I believe this has now been frozen, so other teams can't copy that now even if they could overcome the technical challenges).
Mr. Max's comments regarding the McLaren potentially having the most scope for improvement are something I'll bear in mind. Red Bull are also in good shape.
It's very nicely poised.
Worth recalling that Spain isn't filled with long straights, so we'd expect the Mercedes to not have quite the comedically huge advantage there as they had in, say, Bahrain.
It has a "can't win here" bar-chart! :-)
The trouble is... your generation were lucky to have better schooling, easy to find jobs, and above all able to become rich by buying a house in high inflation times... and you do show a certain contempt for working class kids now.
http://sullydish.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/dish_chart.png
For some reason, whenever I see 'Banksta' used it's the first thing that comes into my head. Probably the sign of a mis-spent youth... ;-)
The sad thing about the border wall is that it has worked. The bus and bar bombings have stopped in Israel.
It is also worthy of note that Israel has about a million Arab citizens that are richer and better educated than the surrounding countries. Israel is the safest country in the area to be a woman, gay, Christian, Bahai or even a moderate muslim. It is the only one with free elections. Israel is a paradox. If your neighbours were Lebanon, Syria, Palestine and Egypt wouldn't you be a teensy bit sensitive to security issues.
Ten years ago I ran a teaching course in the West Bank, including visits to Jericho and Hebron. The Palestinians were very hospitable. The Israeli security were very hostile to me when they found out where I had been, but thoroughly searched me politely. The behaviour of the militant settlers in Hebron was very provocative. It was a very interesting trip.
On other matters, a great piece on how "opting out" of big corporate data monitoring is now impossible:
http://time.com/83200/privacy-internet-big-data-opt-out/
We really need stronger government action to protect our privacy. Unfortunately, the current and previous governments of this country both jumped on the bandwagon rather than stood up for our rights.
(The rest of the link was unfunny and tendentious)
No, the other side has that murderer Al-Sisi, an Israeli appointee.
It's all realpolitik and everyone does it, but no, it can't encourage insurgents pondering a cease-fire and offered the favour of great powers if they accept.
Anyway, off for the night.
https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/08/09/london-is-the-global-capital-of-money-laundering/
"Britain is still the money-laundering capital of the world, according to a special six-page investigation published in this fortnight’s Private Eye."
"When Private Eye asked one former policeman why the bankers aren’t getting arrested for money laundering, the answer was simple: ‘They are untouchable’."
http://www.ianfraser.org/how-london-became-the-money-laundering-capital-of-the-world/
"Speaking on the Marr Show on BBC One on March 23rd, the former Daily Telegraph editor and historian Max Hastings said a “senior central banker” recently told him that London is now considered to be the “money-laundering capital of the world”."
www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/borisjohnson/10808153/The-economic-sunshine-has-left-Miligoblin-groping-in-the-dark.html
I think recent developments could play well for Sinn Fein.Their leaders are now men of peace,not violence,and their point about Adams' arrest being politically motivated in an election could provoke sympathy and,if that were so,it has back-fired.This could well boost Sinn Fein's prospects.
The 3 Euro seats are super skinny with SF at 1-6,1-6.1-7.There are also 2 by-elections on 23rd May.SF are 20-1 in 1 at Longford-Westmeath and the more likely one Dublin West at 7-2.
We've seen in Scotland already how paradoxical and contrary politics in this day and age can be.Maybe this is the time to take a punt on Sinn Fein being the benefactors in the Republic.
Finished unplaced.
I think it was a conspiracy!
Wondering which dearly departed and long missed PB'er I should mention next to bring back in all their glory?
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/feb/11/saving-world-william-keegan-review?CMP=twt_gu
Labour must be very concerned about today's ICM poll putting them on 32%. Just 2 points higher than 2010.
They'd be more concerned if it was the Guardian/ICM telephone poll rather than the "Wisdom Index" poll.
Of course, give it a few months and some of us think it WILL be the Guardian/ICM poll.
"And we not only saved the world(!) - saved the banks..."
Now the Bear, we need to play with a lot more subtlety.
If any of you read my post linking to an old BBC story (before any news of what the plan was for Gerry) in the previous thread showing some parallel history you would have picked out what the cops were actually on to him over, 1. membership of the IRA and 2. directing terrorism, exactly as they put on Johnny Adair, who was the subject of the article.
Anyone who listened to Gerry Adams would have heard exactly what he said was put to him by the cops which was his IRA membership and position in Belfast during the time when Jean McConville went missing. It fits very well with 1 & 2 above.
As I said at the time, what would have made the decision to charge now is not the words of the dead but the words of the living. In fact, the very much living who's words might be the biggest problem are those of a 65 year old man called Gerry Adams
Gerry's own stupidity and double speak may yet finish him (but apparently to political sophisticates the man's a genius) . As I mentioned to Sean T earlier on, the key to getting away with things over here is to fess up. Gerry of course never did anything so never fessed up.
Blunt reality after all the talk around it is this. Adams was a commander in the area where McConville lived, he would have gave the order for her beating and removal. Of course he didnt know at all about it, despite having his hands on some of McConville's personal items returned to her children after 'she ran away'.
Ironically the whole story about on the runs amnesty actually enabled the cops to successfully investigate Adams and bring him in. Why? Because there would be no calls from Downing Street after that clown car of an episode got out.
Meanwhile, I believe it was Topping concluded that it was ok to drop investigations into senior Republicans who used their position during the Troubles to abuse children, and I don't mean to give them a beating either. But thats ok, sexual abuse of children, no problem, it was part of the conflict, don't want to upset the peace process.
Dropping investigations into the UVF on the loyalist side was also a good idea apparently despite the fact that they are a scourge on the communities from which they come. They've put the guns down in killing Catholics but it's ok for them to control the drugs trade and generally throw the weight about.
Of course what no one noticed in the midst of all this because Gerry is a name is that there have been arrests regarding the loyalist bombing of a place called McGurks Bar in Belfast 40 or so years ago.
Didn't hear you witless middle class f**kers say that was a bad idea did you.
What are you afraid of, bombs in London again?
RISK-TAKERS and gamblers are more likely to vote Yes in the independence referendum, a major academic study has found.
The study, headed by Professor David Bell of Stirling University, found a clear link between people's willingness to take risks in life and their support for independence.
What we need is a thread on Scottish independence, or voting systems. That'll get the plebs up!
You have been long saying that the Labour lead is sound.. and that people have made up their minds... that's complacent too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007–present_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
http://newstonoone.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/how-red-our-are-valleys-wales-2015.html
I think I may have mentioned on here before that in the early 70s my dad had Gerry Adams literally in his sights as he gave instructions to IRA members. Even at that time there were strict instructions not to shoot him unless he had his hands on a gun at the time. The suspicion is that he knew this because he was never seen to touch a weapon himself. He had already been identified as someone the UK government could do business with and used this to obtain personal protection that others did not have.
Given his role at the time the idea that he would not have had prior knowledge and given at least tacit consent to the murder seems very far fetched but proving actual involvement may be very difficult.
But I agree that he is of considerably less importance now with comparatively little influence. The problems with his brother have been very damaging.
:popcorn:
Thank you for that - currently living here, I was interested in your analysis, but did not find an answer to the question you posed, "how red are our valleys?"
The simple answer is that they will stay red because they are the home of benefitland. The main reasons why their ancestors came to the valleys over about 150 years ago - coal and iron ore - have gone and that employment has not been replaced. Indeed other manufacturing industries have also closed down. As the place has been greened over - there is fierce resistance to opening any new coal mines. The Welsh Government tends to throw money at this area - almost without thinking.
As you say, Plaid is left wing and so is fishing in the same pool (except for coastal west Wales) and is bereft of ideas excepting forcing more Welshness on a mainly unwilling population. However, it is noticeable that a lot of the better paid public sector jobs require fluency in Welsh (even though it spoken by only 23% of the population).
You say, "Wales, of course, has devolved government. This is, as it has been since its inception, Labour controlled. It is responsible for, among other things, education, health and the environment, so many of the subjects that are the subject of political debate for the Westminster election in England are of less pressing importance in Wales." Here I would disagree with you as there is much public anger about cuts in health services which results in poorer care and longer waiting lists and about the disgraceful performance in education from primary school to university. This could well have an impact outside the Valleys.
Ceredigion should stay Liberal as Mark Williams is a good MP; Brecon will probably stay Liberal as Roger Williams is a well-known farmer but will be 67 if he stands again. Montgomery should stay Conservative as Glyn Davies is a local man and has done well. Also it elected a Conservative AM in 2011, Russell George, who has promoted and won infrastructure improvements.
Also, when looking at Wales, it should be remembered that places as politically different as Ceredigion, Ynys Mon and Pembrokeshire have lots of Independents on their Councils.
What the f**k are you talking about? I didn't mention child abuse. I said that if the peace process is to have any chance then difficult decisions on both sides are needed when it comes to ex-terrorists. Gerry Adams as you say was one such and as the GFA didn't provide for amnesties of yet-to-be-caught terrorists just existing jailed ones then he didn't have anywhere to go.
You meanwhile? "On the ground" - LOL. God knows what you and @Alanbrooke want from your position of informed localness.
Good luck to you both and to the province.