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FrancisUrquhart said:

Theresa May, the former PM, asks if Johnson agrees that it may be difficult to ease the social isolation rules before a vaccine is necessary. Does the PM agree, and how will the government have an exit strategy from these measures.

Johnson says the government’s policy is to push down the peak of the epidemic. And he says he is confident that the country will get through this.


Anybody in doubt, until there is a vaccine, normal life won't be fully resuming.

That was a brutal, but fair, question from May.

MarqueeMark said:

Dura_Ace said:

Malmesbury said:

Shades of SpaceX. If you don't know the story, the aerospace industry is rife with this kind of stuff - outsource ten times over, each level adding profit.

Rolls Royce used to charge the MoD about 90 quid for some seal on the Pegasus 106. Direct from the supplier they cost about 72p.

There was a similar gouging in the NCB decdaes back, for a fastening on pit props if I remember right.

More recently - the Spearfish torpedo upgrade. The hydraulics needed replacing in each torpedo, due to age. The tools etc had enough of the original companies IP in them to ensure that you couldn't do the job without paying them. They wanted zillions.

A couple of bright sparks at the MOD realised that electrical systems have improved to the point that they can replace hydraulics. So they commissioned a project to replace the hydraulics with electric actuators. Which worked, were lighter, cost far less, and much safer to deal with. High pressure hydraulics are fun fun fun...

A deputation of MPs from all parties and hydraulics guys demanded the Minister reverse the decision - "protecting jobs, industrial base... blah blah...". He told them to Foxtrot Oscar.

Similar thing with torpedos for the P-8s, uniforms for the Sentinal spy planes, etc etc...

justin124 said:

Labour probably only needs to recover to circa 260 seats given the Anti-Tory bloc in Scotland. I also expect some Labour recovery in Scotland under Starmer.

Then again you expected incumbency to save Labour MPs in Scotland last year.

justin124 said:

Labour probably only needs to recover to circa 260 seats given the Anti-Tory bloc in Scotland. I also expect some Labour recovery in Scotland under Starmer.

You've spent what feels like decades talking about that Labour recovery......

AlastairMeeks said:

https://twitter.com/yona1959/status/1239964597940977664

HS2 now feels even more like a massive indulgence.

Not if we don't have airlines.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Theresa May, the former PM, asks if Johnson agrees that it may be difficult to ease the social isolation rules before a vaccine is necessary. Does the PM agree, and how will the government have an exit strategy from these measures.

Johnson says the government’s policy is to push down the peak of the epidemic. And he says he is confident that the country will get through this.


Anybody in doubt, until there is a vaccine, normal life won't be fully resuming.

It was a question not a statement of fact. Can we take this one day at a time and take our cue from countries further along the epidemic than we are?

FrancisUrquhart said:

"We're increasing our tests from 5,000 to 10,000 a day and it may be of interest to the House to know that we are getting much closer to having a generally available test which will determine whether or not you have had the disease and that will truly be of huge benefit to this country in tackling the outbreak."

Be interesting to see what rules they put in place for those that have and haven't had it.

Huge news if true.

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Anabobazina said:

I see the daily dose of moronic anti London comments is being administered again

Knock Knock
"Who's there?"
"Your neighbour..."
"Look mate, this is London. I don't want to know you. I will only acknowledge you if you play your tunes too loud, and then I'm calling the police. OK

QED.

FrancisUrquhart said:

DougSeal said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Theresa May, the former PM, asks if Johnson agrees that it may be difficult to ease the social isolation rules before a vaccine is necessary. Does the PM agree, and how will the government have an exit strategy from these measures.

Johnson says the government’s policy is to push down the peak of the epidemic. And he says he is confident that the country will get through this.


Anybody in doubt, until there is a vaccine, normal life won't be fully resuming.

It was a question not a statement of fact. Can we take this one day at a time and take our cue from countries further along the epidemic than we are?

It is a statement of fact in the Imperial report and why Boris can't give any promises in response to this question.

That is a report. Its findings may be powerful and convincing, but since they don't issue directly from the mouth of God, they do not represent unchallengeable truth. That's not a verdict on the quality of the report (wouldn't dream of it) but goes for reports in general.

Malmesbury said:

Nigelb said:

Pagan2 said:

So many companies pulling their weight...switching manufacture, freebies and discounts for medical staff then this

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200317/04381644114/volunteers-3d-print-unobtainable-11000-valve-1-to-keep-covid-19-patients-alive-original-manufacturer-threatens-to-sue.shtml

...Fracassi admits that his 3D-printed versions might not be very durable or re-usable. But when it's possible to make replacements so cheaply -- each 3D-printed part costs just one euro, or roughly a dollar -- that isn't a problem. At least it wouldn't be, except for that threat of legal action, which is also why Fracassi doesn't dare share his 3D file with other hospitals, despite their desperate need for these valves.
And if you're wondering why the original manufacturer would risk what is bound to be awful publicity for its actions, over something that only costs one euro to make, a detail in the Business Insider Italia article provides an explanation: the official list price for a single valve is 10,000 euros...

Shades of SpaceX. If you don't know the story, the aerospace industry is rife with this kind of stuff - outsource ten times over, each level adding profit.

Elon Musk simply asked how much each component should cost to make. Then added 40% for profit/variation. If it was more than that, bought the manufacturing in house. And collapsed the price of rockets.

At one hospital my children use, someone realised that the ideal drawers for storing minor supplies - dressings, saline amuples etc. were mechanics tool chests. Identical in function to the "proper" item, but 10 times cheaper. They even won an award for the idea.

Six months later, all gone and replaced with the "proper" item. The importer of that special set of drawers is in the constituency of a certain high ranking opposition MP. He reached out and had the problem of the NHS buying drawers too cheaply fixed.

SoftBank Owned Patent Troll, Using Monkey Selfie Law Firm, Sues To Block Covid-19 Testing, Using Theranos Patents
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200316/14584244111/softbank-owned-patent-troll-using-monkey-selfie-law-firm-sues-to-block-covid-19-testing-using-theranos-patents.shtml

DougSeal said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DougSeal said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Theresa May, the former PM, asks if Johnson agrees that it may be difficult to ease the social isolation rules before a vaccine is necessary. Does the PM agree, and how will the government have an exit strategy from these measures.

Johnson says the government’s policy is to push down the peak of the epidemic. And he says he is confident that the country will get through this.


Anybody in doubt, until there is a vaccine, normal life won't be fully resuming.

It was a question not a statement of fact. Can we take this one day at a time and take our cue from countries further along the epidemic than we are?

It is a statement of fact in the Imperial report.

No. It was a hypothesis based on the model detailed in the Imperial report. And the Imperial report, while it has to be taken seriously, is not Holy Writ - see https://necsi.edu/review-of-ferguson-et-al-impact-of-non-pharmaceutical-interventions

Sure, but it was the only evidence based strategy they said was possible (other than herd immunity). In addition to Imperial report, Germany have said the same thing (talking about at least 2 years of this), Australia too.

FrancisUrquhart said:

"We're increasing our tests from 5,000 to 10,000 a day and it may be of interest to the House to know that we are getting much closer to having a generally available test which will determine whether or not you have had the disease and that will truly be of huge benefit to this country in tackling the outbreak."

Be interesting to see what rules they put in place for those that have and haven't had it.

Game changer.

Something unremarked so far. The Chinese are pretty good at lockdowns, the Koreans on using their slightly Orwellian datastate to track infected patients. The UK are pretty damn good at developing new molecular diagnostics.

Afternoon all

Not long back from my daily antisocial walk. I find growling at people if they approach too close is invaluable in maintaining the new etiquette of social distance.

As an aside, I did purchase the Racing Post but there's not going to be much point and that news paper may come under pressure if betting shops are forced to close.

Sainsbury's in East Ham High Street was busy but okay - most of the obvious shelves picked clean but even the fresh meat and fish looking depleted. Tesco's was a nightmare - the car park was as busy as Christmas Eve and the store was rammed. They have reduced their opening hours and are no longer 24 hours.

The panic buying and stocking up continues unabated - why is no one in authority seeking to mitigate this? It needs some leadership (which will be a struggle for Johnson) to tell people there is no need to overstock, no need to hoard and to think of the more vulnerable in society.

GideonWise said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

"We're increasing our tests from 5,000 to 10,000 a day and it may be of interest to the House to know that we are getting much closer to having a generally available test which will determine whether or not you have had the disease and that will truly be of huge benefit to this country in tackling the outbreak."

Be interesting to see what rules they put in place for those that have and haven't had it.

Game changer.

We really need both the "instant screening test" and the post infection test. Then we can quickly isolate those that have it before they become super spreaders (especially those travelling from abroad) and also let out the ones that have recovered and aren't at risk.

GideonWise said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

"We're increasing our tests from 5,000 to 10,000 a day and it may be of interest to the House to know that we are getting much closer to having a generally available test which will determine whether or not you have had the disease and that will truly be of huge benefit to this country in tackling the outbreak."

Be interesting to see what rules they put in place for those that have and haven't had it.

Game changer.

Something unremarked so far. The Chinese are pretty good at lockdowns, the Koreans on using their slightly Orwellian datastate to track infected patients. The UK are pretty damn good at developing new molecular diagnostics.

Goodness how many people would want that test

stodge said:

Afternoon all

Not long back from my daily antisocial walk. I find growling at people if they approach too close is invaluable in maintaining the new etiquette of social distance.

As an aside, I did purchase the Racing Post but there's not going to be much point and that news paper may come under pressure if betting shops are forced to close.

Sainsbury's in East Ham High Street was busy but okay - most of the obvious shelves picked clean but even the fresh meat and fish looking depleted. Tesco's was a nightmare - the car park was as busy as Christmas Eve and the store was rammed. They have reduced their opening hours and are no longer 24 hours.

The panic buying and stocking up continues unabated - why is no one in authority seeking to mitigate this? It needs some leadership (which will be a struggle for Johnson) to tell people there is no need to overstock, no need to hoard and to think of the more vulnerable in society.

They have said this many times but the reality is everytime we get told there is no need to stock up and panic buy people only hear stock up and panic buy.

DavidL said:

With a positive cornucopia of viruses and bugs to keep you entertained on the way. Must be a betting opportunity in there somewhere.

Are you suggesting opening a betting shop in each tube station? There were supposed to be hundreds of retail opportunities available once the ticket offices closed.

The Underground has been London's mobile germ warfare laboratory for 150 years or more - a little more respect, please.

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

https://twitter.com/yona1959/status/1239964597940977664

HS2 now feels even more like a massive indulgence.

I disagree. We are going to need some massive capital infrastructure projects to give a shock to an economy in cardiac arrest. HS2 is further down the track (apologies) than most alternatives.

You're right its far down the track - its decades away.

HS2 will do absolutely nothing for the economy for the foreseeable future. Doesn't mean its not a good investment for the long term but if we're talking 2033 [and that's being optimistic lets be honest] before its operational there's other short term projects that could be operational before then that will be needed too.

They money spent up to that point doesn't disappear into the ether, it pays salaries and for materials, which will hopefully be locally sourced.

FrancisUrquhart said:

DougSeal said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DougSeal said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Theresa May, the former PM, asks if Johnson agrees that it may be difficult to ease the social isolation rules before a vaccine is necessary. Does the PM agree, and how will the government have an exit strategy from these measures.

Johnson says the government’s policy is to push down the peak of the epidemic. And he says he is confident that the country will get through this.


Anybody in doubt, until there is a vaccine, normal life won't be fully resuming.

It was a question not a statement of fact. Can we take this one day at a time and take our cue from countries further along the epidemic than we are?

It is a statement of fact in the Imperial report.

No. It was a hypothesis based on the model detailed in the Imperial report. And the Imperial report, while it has to be taken seriously, is not Holy Writ - see https://necsi.edu/review-of-ferguson-et-al-impact-of-non-pharmaceutical-interventions

Sure, but it was the only evidence based strategy they said was possible (other than herd immunity). In addition to Imperial report, Germany have said the same thing (talking about at least 2 years of this), Australia too.

They may be right. They may be wrong. Taking this one day at a time is the only thing that will keep you sane.

GideonWise said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

"We're increasing our tests from 5,000 to 10,000 a day and it may be of interest to the House to know that we are getting much closer to having a generally available test which will determine whether or not you have had the disease and that will truly be of huge benefit to this country in tackling the outbreak."

Be interesting to see what rules they put in place for those that have and haven't had it.

Game changer.

Something unremarked so far. The Chinese are pretty good at lockdowns, the Koreans on using their slightly Orwellian datastate to track infected patients. The UK are pretty damn good at developing new molecular diagnostics.

Needs to be available in bulk, and accurate, though.

Philip_Thompson said:

RobD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

https://twitter.com/yona1959/status/1239964597940977664

HS2 now feels even more like a massive indulgence.

I disagree. We are going to need some massive capital infrastructure projects to give a shock to an economy in cardiac arrest. HS2 is further down the track (apologies) than most alternatives.

You're right its far down the track - its decades away.

HS2 will do absolutely nothing for the economy for the foreseeable future. Doesn't mean its not a good investment for the long term but if we're talking 2033 [and that's being optimistic lets be honest] before its operational there's other short term projects that could be operational before then that will be needed too.

They money spent up to that point doesn't disappear into the ether, it pays salaries and for materials, which will hopefully be locally sourced.

So would paying someone to dig a hole and paying someone else to fill it.

I don't follow? My point is the money would be going back into the economy, not sitting in a bank account somewhere.

GideonWise said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

"We're increasing our tests from 5,000 to 10,000 a day and it may be of interest to the House to know that we are getting much closer to having a generally available test which will determine whether or not you have had the disease and that will truly be of huge benefit to this country in tackling the outbreak."

Be interesting to see what rules they put in place for those that have and haven't had it.

Game changer.

Something unremarked so far. The Chinese are pretty good at lockdowns, the Koreans on using their slightly Orwellian datastate to track infected patients. The UK are pretty damn good at developing new molecular diagnostics.

yeah, on a number of levels.
UK coming up with one of the key planks to how we deal with this threat in the long term would also have massive effects on morale etc. And that's the big unknown on 'how long can we stay slightly - if not fully - shutdown?' ...

What HS2 needs is an exit strategy. Something to make good the vast amount that has already been spent. Something like a shorter railway terminating in a new commuter town. Get Prince Charles to build it.

RobD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

RobD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

https://twitter.com/yona1959/status/1239964597940977664

HS2 now feels even more like a massive indulgence.

I disagree. We are going to need some massive capital infrastructure projects to give a shock to an economy in cardiac arrest. HS2 is further down the track (apologies) than most alternatives.

You're right its far down the track - its decades away.

HS2 will do absolutely nothing for the economy for the foreseeable future. Doesn't mean its not a good investment for the long term but if we're talking 2033 [and that's being optimistic lets be honest] before its operational there's other short term projects that could be operational before then that will be needed too.

They money spent up to that point doesn't disappear into the ether, it pays salaries and for materials, which will hopefully be locally sourced.

So would paying someone to dig a hole and paying someone else to fill it.

I don't follow? My point is the money would be going back into the economy, not sitting in a bank account somewhere.

Its an old expression, have you never heard of it before?.

If you pay someone to dig a hole, then pay someone else to fill the hole, then that money doesn't disappear. It pays salaries and they might seek to buy a spade sourced locally. You've absolutely nothing productive to show for it in the end, but the money hasn't disappeared.

Doesn't justify doing it though in my opinion. I've never bought "salaries" as a justification for spending, because we could spend salaries on any meaningless garbage (like paying someone to dig a hole only to pay someone else to refill it). The justification for a project can't be its salaries it needs to be what the project gives to make those salaries worthwhile.

FrancisUrquhart said:

No I slagged of Johnson Snr as well. Go check.

Anybody over 60 that doesn't need to go, needs to stay in as much as possible. Its that simple. I have been absolutely consistent on that.

Over the past few days, on here, I called out Blunkett, Janet Street Porter, Bojo Snr, Jezza for all acting like total tw@ts, with their entitled attitude of "but I am fit and healthy" and "its ageist against us in good health".

Get in the house and stay in there.

Mmm. But you were pissed off about Peston raising it - which to me is odd if you think it's very important that high profile figures like StanJo do not set a bad example.

But anyway, let you off, this is a national emergency and I do like your posts on it on the whole.

RobD said:

stodge said:

Afternoon all

Not long back from my daily antisocial walk. I find growling at people if they approach too close is invaluable in maintaining the new etiquette of social distance.

As an aside, I did purchase the Racing Post but there's not going to be much point and that news paper may come under pressure if betting shops are forced to close.

Sainsbury's in East Ham High Street was busy but okay - most of the obvious shelves picked clean but even the fresh meat and fish looking depleted. Tesco's was a nightmare - the car park was as busy as Christmas Eve and the store was rammed. They have reduced their opening hours and are no longer 24 hours.

The panic buying and stocking up continues unabated - why is no one in authority seeking to mitigate this? It needs some leadership (which will be a struggle for Johnson) to tell people there is no need to overstock, no need to hoard and to think of the more vulnerable in society.

Hasn't he said that at the two previous press conferences, and the same message is being given by the retailers? It doesn't help that the media are making this seem like the end of days, which is undoubtedly encouraging it.

The media has really been quite disgraceful in all this. It used to be in times of national crisis that the BBC could be relied upon as the calming voice of sanity, but even they have ramped the fear factor up to 11.

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

https://twitter.com/yona1959/status/1239964597940977664

HS2 now feels even more like a massive indulgence.

I disagree. We are going to need some massive capital infrastructure projects to give a shock to an economy in cardiac arrest. HS2 is further down the track (apologies) than most alternatives.

You're right its far down the track - its decades away.

HS2 will do absolutely nothing for the economy for the foreseeable future. Doesn't mean its not a good investment for the long term but if we're talking 2033 [and that's being optimistic lets be honest] before its operational there's other short term projects that could be operational before then that will be needed too.

A fleet of tidal lagoons, however, with an 85% local content....paid for by the private sector. Diggers breaking ground this summer on the first - that works.

contrarian said:

GideonWise said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

"We're increasing our tests from 5,000 to 10,000 a day and it may be of interest to the House to know that we are getting much closer to having a generally available test which will determine whether or not you have had the disease and that will truly be of huge benefit to this country in tackling the outbreak."

Be interesting to see what rules they put in place for those that have and haven't had it.

Game changer.

Something unremarked so far. The Chinese are pretty good at lockdowns, the Koreans on using their slightly Orwellian datastate to track infected patients. The UK are pretty damn good at developing new molecular diagnostics.

Goodness how many people would want that test

A chunk of the planet.

Anyone who wants to travel.

RobD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

RobD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

RobD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

RobD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

https://twitter.com/yona1959/status/1239964597940977664

HS2 now feels even more like a massive indulgence.

I disagree. We are going to need some massive capital infrastructure projects to give a shock to an economy in cardiac arrest. HS2 is further down the track (apologies) than most alternatives.

You're right its far down the track - its decades away.

HS2 will do absolutely nothing for the economy for the foreseeable future. Doesn't mean its not a good investment for the long term but if we're talking 2033 [and that's being optimistic lets be honest] before its operational there's other short term projects that could be operational before then that will be needed too.

They money spent up to that point doesn't disappear into the ether, it pays salaries and for materials, which will hopefully be locally sourced.

So would paying someone to dig a hole and paying someone else to fill it.

I don't follow? My point is the money would be going back into the economy, not sitting in a bank account somewhere.

Its an old expression, have you never heard of it before?.

If you pay someone to dig a hole, then pay someone else to fill the hole, then that money doesn't disappear. It pays salaries and they might seek to buy a spade sourced locally. You've absolutely nothing productive to show for it in the end, but the money hasn't disappeared.

Doesn't justify doing it though in my opinion. I've never bought "salaries" as a justification for spending, because we could spend salaries on any meaningless garbage (like paying someone to dig a hole only to pay someone else to refill it). The justification for a project can't be its salaries it needs to be what the project gives to make those salaries worthwhile.

You said HS2 would do nothing for the economy for the foreseeable future. I don't think that is true, regardless of whether anything useful has been built or not.

Indeed, because I'm discounting salaries as anything it will do for the foreseeable future. If you were to do other projects instead then salaries would be spent but on something else.

So you are discounting the parts where it has an immediate effect in order to claim it will have no effect?

No. Paying people has an immediate effect, but people could be paid on any number of projects.

Paying for HS2 specifically won't have an effect until it is operational. If you want short term effects, then short term quick projects could get the same salaries and a more immediate boost. This is long term not short term.

Kim Jong-un, the North Korean leader, has ordered the rapid construction of a hospital in the capital Pyongyang amid speculation that the secretive dictatorship is suffering from an epidemic of coronavirus.

Reports in today’s state media made no direct mention of the virus, and officially North Korea claims not to have had a single case, despite having a long and inconsistently policed border with China. But they transmitted a sense of urgency on the part of Mr Kim about completing the hospital, and included unusually frank language about the shortcomings of the country’s health system.

Mr Kim said that Pyongyang General Hospital must be completed by the 75th anniversary of the founding of the Workers’ Party of Korea in October.

In a speech marking the beginning of construction he was quoted as saying, “The country’s health and medical treatment sector … was thoroughly, scientifically, and honestly evaluated, and it pained my heart … that our country’s own capital does not wholly have modern medical treatment facilities.”

North Korea has reported mobilising health workers and quarantining thousands of people, including foreign diplomats, but has yet to report a single infection by the coronavirus. Last week, the commander of American forces in South Korea said that North Korea probably has cases of the virus, based on observation of its arms forces, which suspended exercises and kept troops in barracks for a month.

In an unconfirmed report, a South Korean newspaper reported rumours that North Koreans in parts of the country are starving to death, after the border with China was formally closed as an anti-virus precaution. The Chosun Ilbo newspaper said that the absence of cross-border trade deprived some people of food supplies.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/italian-coronavirus-deaths-hit-2-500-as-world-leaders-act-3lv69fv5f

Philip_Thompson said:

No. Paying people has an immediate effect, but people could be paid on any number of projects.

Paying for HS2 specifically won't have an effect until it is operational. If you want short term effects, then short term quick projects could get the same salaries and a more immediate boost. This is long term not short term.

That's fair enough. But your claim it would have no effect on the economy for the foreseeable future is wrong. It will, regardless of whether it is the right choice or not.

IshmaelZ said:

Stereotomy said:

IshmaelZ said:

NerysHughes said:

IshmaelZ said:

NerysHughes said:

RobD said:

NerysHughes said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RobD said:

Pulpstar said:

If the true rate is so high compared to the reported why is the % of positive tests so low. Is it a high check rate of low probability infected hospital admissions ?>

And contact tracing not being effective. There's no way only 1,500 people have it in the whole UK.

200,000 confirmed cases of covid 19 worldwide according to John Hopkins University

Thats 0.00002597402 of the worlds population

The fraction with it is probably a fair bit higher.

Im sure it is but that figure does put the "outbreak" into a bit of perspective

Only to someone really terminally stupid.

Are you a reincarnation of someone else?

Why is it stupid, the Spanish Flu killed at least 50 million,

Of the dozens of possible answers to this, the two most easy to understand

1. Someone tells you that their 5 year old child has died. Do you console them with the thought that the Spanish Flu killed at least 50 million? Because of "perspective"?

2. The Spanish Flu is a thing which has happened. It had a beginning, a middle and an end. Has Covid 19 had 1, 2 or all 3 of those things? What does that tell you about the comparability of the statistics?

Don't bother, this guy obviously isn't arguing in good faith

It is odd how "perspective" arguments appeal to the terminally dim. All the objects which I deal with in day to day life are smaller than the planet Neptune. Does that put them into perspective? Should I pay more attention to the planet?

You need to tell Peter Singer he's terminally dim.

Scottish schools also closing from Friday, looks likely England will follow.

RobD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

No. Paying people has an immediate effect, but people could be paid on any number of projects.

Paying for HS2 specifically won't have an effect until it is operational. If you want short term effects, then short term quick projects could get the same salaries and a more immediate boost. This is long term not short term.

That's fair enough. But your claim it would have no effect on the economy for the foreseeable future is wrong. It will, regardless of whether it is the right choice or not.

No, it won't. Paying people will have an impact for the foreseeable future, but HS2 won't. If the government abandoned HS2 and took up other projects (or took up other projects as well as HS2) people would be paid either way.

RobD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

RobD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

No. Paying people has an immediate effect, but people could be paid on any number of projects.

Paying for HS2 specifically won't have an effect until it is operational. If you want short term effects, then short term quick projects could get the same salaries and a more immediate boost. This is long term not short term.

That's fair enough. But your claim it would have no effect on the economy for the foreseeable future is wrong. It will, regardless of whether it is the right choice or not.

No, it won't. Paying people will have an impact for the foreseeable future, but HS2 won't. If the government abandoned HS2 and took up other projects (or took up other projects as well as HS2) people would be paid either way.

So because HS2 involves paying people it will have an impact?

Not meaningfully.

Yes pedantically and meaninglessly.

MarqueeMark said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

https://twitter.com/yona1959/status/1239964597940977664

HS2 now feels even more like a massive indulgence.

I disagree. We are going to need some massive capital infrastructure projects to give a shock to an economy in cardiac arrest. HS2 is further down the track (apologies) than most alternatives.

You're right its far down the track - its decades away.

HS2 will do absolutely nothing for the economy for the foreseeable future. Doesn't mean its not a good investment for the long term but if we're talking 2033 [and that's being optimistic lets be honest] before its operational there's other short term projects that could be operational before then that will be needed too.

A fleet of tidal lagoons, however, with an 85% local content....paid for by the private sector. Diggers breaking ground this summer on the first - that works.

YES. Just tell me where to sign the petition, write a rude letter to an MP, wave a placard etc.

Philip_Thompson said:

RobD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

RobD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

No. Paying people has an immediate effect, but people could be paid on any number of projects.

Paying for HS2 specifically won't have an effect until it is operational. If you want short term effects, then short term quick projects could get the same salaries and a more immediate boost. This is long term not short term.

That's fair enough. But your claim it would have no effect on the economy for the foreseeable future is wrong. It will, regardless of whether it is the right choice or not.

No, it won't. Paying people will have an impact for the foreseeable future, but HS2 won't. If the government abandoned HS2 and took up other projects (or took up other projects as well as HS2) people would be paid either way.

So because HS2 involves paying people it will have an impact?

Not meaningfully.

Yes pedantically and meaninglessly.

I am being serious. Regardless of the project, money for wages and supplies will go back into the economy. It can be for building a complete boondoggle, but that doesn't mean the money just disappears.

Anabobazina said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DougSeal said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Theresa May, the former PM, asks if Johnson agrees that it may be difficult to ease the social isolation rules before a vaccine is necessary. Does the PM agree, and how will the government have an exit strategy from these measures.

Johnson says the government’s policy is to push down the peak of the epidemic. And he says he is confident that the country will get through this.


Anybody in doubt, until there is a vaccine, normal life won't be fully resuming.

It was a question not a statement of fact. Can we take this one day at a time and take our cue from countries further along the epidemic than we are?

It is a statement of fact in the Imperial report and why Boris can't give any promises in response to this question.

That is a report. Its findings may be powerful and convincing, but since they don't issue directly from the mouth of God, they do not represent unchallengeable truth. That's not a verdict on the quality of the report (wouldn't dream of it) but goes for reports in general.

Assume you have better evidence, presumably the cranky thoughts that whistle around inside your head?

The Imperial report is not evidence, it is an interpretation of evidence. That interpretation has been challenged, in the report I linked to downthread for example.

algarkirk said:

Good news at last: Eurovision Song Contest cancelled. Every cloud.....

Heartless bastard.....

Nigelb said:

GideonWise said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

"We're increasing our tests from 5,000 to 10,000 a day and it may be of interest to the House to know that we are getting much closer to having a generally available test which will determine whether or not you have had the disease and that will truly be of huge benefit to this country in tackling the outbreak."

Be interesting to see what rules they put in place for those that have and haven't had it.

Game changer.

Something unremarked so far. The Chinese are pretty good at lockdowns, the Koreans on using their slightly Orwellian datastate to track infected patients. The UK are pretty damn good at developing new molecular diagnostics.

Needs to be available in bulk, and accurate, though.

I think they can be with sufficient will.

GideonWise said:

Agreed. This is the way we will come out of the lockdown without needing a vaccine.

A test to see if you have had the virus would be great.

But unless I've missed something it is not as yet known that getting it and recovering gives immunity for any length of time?

RochdalePioneers said:

Floater said:

Floater said:

Schools in scotland closing Friday - not open before summer holidays......

If the info I talked about earlier this week is correct yet another example of Sturgeon getting in first

I don't think she is saying anything dramatic and shocking. TBH I was surprised that schools were left open this week.

They need a plan for:
1 Children of key workers whether that be emergency services, supermarkets or the people who keep the internet running
2 Vulnerable children where school is the only respite they get from the scum they call mum and dad
3 Very poor children where school is the only place they get a healthy / hot / any meal
4 Everyone due to sit GSCEs / A-Levels in a few weeks

I think the exams will be off

BBC news confirms Eurovision song contest cancelled this year

Floater said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Floater said:

Floater said:

Schools in scotland closing Friday - not open before summer holidays......

If the info I talked about earlier this week is correct yet another example of Sturgeon getting in first

I don't think she is saying anything dramatic and shocking. TBH I was surprised that schools were left open this week.

They need a plan for:
1 Children of key workers whether that be emergency services, supermarkets or the people who keep the internet running
2 Vulnerable children where school is the only respite they get from the scum they call mum and dad
3 Very poor children where school is the only place they get a healthy / hot / any meal
4 Everyone due to sit GSCEs / A-Levels in a few weeks

I think the exams will be off

Sure, that seems obvious. So universities are intaking in September based on...?

kinabalu said:

GideonWise said:

Agreed. This is the way we will come out of the lockdown without needing a vaccine.

A test to see if you have had the virus would be great.

But unless I've missed something it is not as yet known that getting it and recovering gives immunity for any length of time?

Typically, it is only for viruses that mutate very rapidly (like the common cold) where immunity does not last a long time. There is no indication (yet) that this is a rapidly mutating virus. (Indeed, it might be better if it were because it would likely lose potency if it were changing quickly.)