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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Two weeks into LAB’s leadership election and Starmer’s looking

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  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,642
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    I agree with you. Starmer is being criticised for no more than this: That he had the political nous to realise that the Corbynites would not be vulnerable until Corbyn had decisively lost a general election, at which point members would be open to a change of direction, and that a candidate who could not be accused of trying to undermine Corbyn's position would be best placed to take advantage of that. He is in the game, whereas the likes of Hilary Benn, Owen Smith, Yvette Cooper and Tom Watson are not. For "unimaginative" I see "clear strategic political thinking."

    Furthermore, there is enough in Starmer's record to suggest that he is far from the centrist politician that Momentum are vainly claiming he is. That, and the fact that he has kept at arms length from the infighting thus far means he is of all the candidates probably the one with most potential to reunify the party from a position of strength.

    John Smith was also caricatured as an unimaginative barrister type prior to his appointment, yet at the point of his death Labour was enjoying 20%+ opinion poll leads. It turned out that competance was exactly what appealed to the public in contrast to the flamboyant Kinnock years.

    The Times have already exposed Starmer as a raving trot who was involved with a subversive far left magazine as recently as 1986.
    Of course he was, his Dad owned the local factory and he went to private school!
    IT BECAME PRIVATE!

    Ahem. While he was there. Did his dad own the factory?
    Apparently so.
    Source? He was telling everyone he was a toolmaker as recently as this weekend. Was he really a member of the boss class? Where is this set out?
    To be fair, his Dad could have meant "the factory I worked in"

    Oxted looks lovely

    "And while Sir Keir has made frequent reference to his tool maker father, dad Rodney once boasted that he ran his own factory.

    Reflecting on his son's knighthood in 2014, Rodney Starmer wrote in Oxted's theatre newsletter that his son had spent six months before university working 'in my factory operating a production machine'."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7878643/Is-Labour-leadership-hopeful-Keir-Starmer-real-Mark-Darcy.html
    It sounds exactly like "the factory I worked in".
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,660
    Couple of years old now, and some replies (by others) have since been removed, but the joy of diversity and demographically motivated choices in creative fields is up in this thread about whether we should pick books based on quality or demography:

    https://twitter.com/MorrisF1/status/885758816947765248

    (My books are up here, if you're interested: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thaddeus-White/e/B008C6RU98 ).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,642
    philiph said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I can't imagine why any BAME or working class actor/musician might conclude that their chosen profession is stacked in favour of the talentless posh!!!
    https://twitter.com/miffythegamer/status/1219074173873594369

    Blimey, old Foxy's acting and singing skills have been evaluated by a lot of new critics in the last 5 days or so!

    Would they bother had he been singing, well or badly, from the centre left hymn sheet I wonder...

    It depends, I guess. I am struggling to see how Lozza managed to get a singing gig on national TV other than for being who he is - a posh, white bloke with right wing opinions. If that is not privilege and identity poilitics I do not know what is. We need to be brave and call it out. Don't you agree?

    No, I disagree. He probably got the gig because he is already famous as an actor in a popular tv show, and people criticising him for his acting and singing talent, or lack of it, now, when they didn't used to a week ago, are just predictably showing themselves to be complete idiots

    I'd never heard of him before this weekend.
    He was wheeled onto QT as a classic clickbait ruse by the BBC and also to make up for the many dozens of BBC comedians (= left wing, unfunny) that appear on it week in week out and said something which some people describe as right wing. This then duly pushed all the right buttons of the left and he has become more of a celeb than he was hitherto.

    Of course he has. Give an actor a stage and they'll seize it with gusto. It has always beat me why people allow themselves to be so wound up by it. Actors will always do what actors do. They are supremely self unaware, magnificently opinionated and usually as thick as two short planks - no matter what their politics.

    I don't think that is fair. Actors are just people who chose to act. Where the difficulty comes is when some of them (looking at you, Emma) come to believe that their views are somehow more important than anyone else's. Having a platform for your views is not the same as having views that are worthy of a platform.
    Actors? People who are over paid for prentending to be someone else. How they have generated such earning power or influence for people with so little talent but such great ego defies any logic.
    It's a fair market. As is that for the Premier League.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,493

    kinabalu said:

    To be honest, I always found him pretty weak in 'Lewis' - prone to mumbling his lines. As for his musicianship - I'm reminded of an open-mike night I once attended in a basement of a pub in Stoke Newington.

    His "Hathaway" in Lewis is a performance of quite some woodenness - unless of course Hathaway is meant to be wooden in which case it's a performance of great distinction.

    Either way, pity for me. I quite liked the programme at the time and will not now be able to watch any repeats.
    I am looking forward to re-watching them and enjoying them even more. I find your virtue signalling over this hilarious.
    Isn't choosing to watch a program more often because of an actors political opinions the very definition of 'virtue signalling'?!
    No, but choosing to watch a programme is.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited January 2020
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    I agree with you. Starmer is being criticised for no more than this: That he had the political nous to realise that the Corbynites would not be vulnerable until Corbyn had decisively lost a general election, at which point members would be open to a change of direction, and that a candidate who could not be accused of trying to undermine Corbyn's position would be best placed to take advantage of that. He is in the game, whereas the likes of Hilary Benn, Owen Smith, Yvette Cooper and Tom Watson are not. For "unimaginative" I see "clear strategic political thinking."

    Furthermore, there is enough in Starmer's record to suggest that he is far from the centrist politician that Momentum are vainly claiming he is. That, and the fact that he has kept at arms length from the infighting thus far means he is of all the candidates probably the one with most potential to reunify the party from a position of strength.

    John Smith was also caricatured as an unimaginative barrister type prior to his appointment, yet at the point of his death Labour was enjoying 20%+ opinion poll leads. It turned out that competance was exactly what appealed to the public in contrast to the flamboyant Kinnock years.

    The Times have already exposed Starmer as a raving trot who was involved with a subversive far left magazine as recently as 1986.
    Of course he was, his Dad owned the local factory and he went to private school!
    IT BECAME PRIVATE!

    Ahem. While he was there. Did his dad own the factory?
    Apparently so.
    Source? He was telling everyone he was a toolmaker as recently as this weekend. Was he really a member of the boss class? Where is this set out?
    To be fair, his Dad could have meant "the factory I worked in"

    Oxted looks lovely

    "And while Sir Keir has made frequent reference to his tool maker father, dad Rodney once boasted that he ran his own factory.

    Reflecting on his son's knighthood in 2014, Rodney Starmer wrote in Oxted's theatre newsletter that his son had spent six months before university working 'in my factory operating a production machine'."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7878643/Is-Labour-leadership-hopeful-Keir-Starmer-real-Mark-Darcy.html
    It sounds exactly like "the factory I worked in".
    Yes it seems like a disingenuous stretch from the Daily Mail there. PB esque!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,242
    kinabalu said:

    To be honest, I always found him pretty weak in 'Lewis' - prone to mumbling his lines. As for his musicianship - I'm reminded of an open-mike night I once attended in a basement of a pub in Stoke Newington.

    His "Hathaway" in Lewis is a performance of quite some woodenness - unless of course Hathaway is meant to be wooden in which case it's a performance of great distinction.

    Either way, pity for me. I quite liked the programme at the time and will not now be able to watch any repeats.
    Why not? I can understand having trouble watching something if it had later transpired a big player in it was convicted of a horrible crime or something, but for being gobby on QT?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    Lot of back and forth on HS2 in last couple of days.

    Looks like Johnson will have to do one of his 'writing two essays' tricks again to make a decision on this one.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,100

    I am looking forward to re-watching them and enjoying them even more. I find your virtue signalling over this hilarious.

    This to me is not virtue signalling (although I agree that there is such a thing). I think the question of to what extent one finds the character of the artist impacts one's enjoyment of the art is quite an interesting and important one.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited January 2020
    kinabalu said:

    I am looking forward to re-watching them and enjoying them even more. I find your virtue signalling over this hilarious.

    This to me is not virtue signalling (although I agree that there is such a thing). I think the question of to what extent one finds the character of the artist impacts one's enjoyment of the art is quite an interesting and important one.
    I think it is for the viewer to detatch themselves from the actors personal views. Sir Patrick Stewart is in my favourite Frasier episode, but I reckon I would argue with him if he posted on here.. still love "The Doctor Is Out" though
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    edited January 2020
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    I agree with you. Starmer is being criticised for no more than this: That he had the political nous to realise that the Corbynites would not be vulnerable until Corbyn had decisively lost a general election, at which point members would be open to a change of direction, and that a candidate who could not be accused of trying to undermine Corbyn's position would be best placed to take advantage of that. He is in the game, whereas the likes of Hilary Benn, Owen Smith, Yvette Cooper and Tom Watson are not. For "unimaginative" I see "clear strategic political thinking."

    Furthermore, there is enough in Starmer's record to suggest that he is far from the centrist politician that Momentum are vainly claiming he is. That, and the fact that he has kept at arms length from the infighting thus far means he is of all the candidates probably the one with most potential to reunify the party from a position of strength.

    John Smith was also caricatured as an unimaginative barrister type prior to his appointment, yet at the point of his death Labour was enjoying 20%+ opinion poll leads. It turned out that competance was exactly what appealed to the public in contrast to the flamboyant Kinnock years.

    The Times have already exposed Starmer as a raving trot who was involved with a subversive far left magazine as recently as 1986.
    Of course he was, his Dad owned the local factory and he went to private school!
    He went to a grammar school, which became a private school rather than go comprehensive like so many others in the 1970s and 1980s
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,100
    kle4 said:

    Why not? I can understand having trouble watching something if it had later transpired a big player in it was convicted of a horrible crime or something, but for being gobby on QT?

    Have tried to clarify the rules around this in my reply to @TOPPING - in a nutshell, you are quite right, Fox is no monster, therefore it's a marginal thing whether I watch repeats of Lewis or not. If I was a massive fan of the prog I probably would despite Fox. But I only quite like it - i.e. it will not make much difference to me either way, so Fox just tilts the balance in favour of not watch.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,642
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    To be honest, I always found him pretty weak in 'Lewis' - prone to mumbling his lines. As for his musicianship - I'm reminded of an open-mike night I once attended in a basement of a pub in Stoke Newington.

    His "Hathaway" in Lewis is a performance of quite some woodenness - unless of course Hathaway is meant to be wooden in which case it's a performance of great distinction.

    Either way, pity for me. I quite liked the programme at the time and will not now be able to watch any repeats.
    Why not? I can understand having trouble watching something if it had later transpired a big player in it was convicted of a horrible crime or something, but for being gobby on QT?
    Quite a shallow ditch to die in
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,642
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Why not? I can understand having trouble watching something if it had later transpired a big player in it was convicted of a horrible crime or something, but for being gobby on QT?

    Have tried to clarify the rules around this in my reply to @TOPPING - in a nutshell, you are quite right, Fox is no monster, therefore it's a marginal thing whether I watch repeats of Lewis or not. If I was a massive fan of the prog I probably would despite Fox. But I only quite like it - i.e. it will not make much difference to me either way, so Fox just tilts the balance in favour of not watch.
    Could you please keep us updated as and when you don't watch a repeat of Lewis.

    TIA.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,709
    What's going on with HS2 costs ?
    Do contractors just fill out how much their blank cheque should be for to the Government if they fancy doing some of the work for it ?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,187
    isam said:

    philiph said:

    I can't help thinking that Starmer is a poor choice for Labour. I just don't see him connecting with or enthusing the core Labour voter or the traditional (as opposed to momentum) Labour members who they have relied on for the donkey work for years.

    That is not to say there is a better alternative. I suspect, and this is a theory that will never be tested, that Emily Thornberry would be the most successful of the candidates available, regardless of her flagellation. (Is that the right word for someone who is anti St Georges flag displays? Innocent face ;) )

    The thing is, for all the criticism Thornberrry got, and her weaselly way of trying to say she wasn't saying what she obviously was re the flag... there are plenty of working class people who would roll their eyes at a house with the Flag of St George on it. If it was so popular, more houses would have them
    Quite so. I said this repeatedly at the time and was mocked for it by people who would balk at the prospect of living next to White Flag Man.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,296

    geoffw said:


    Actually, if I was voting for the Labour leadership, I'd probably be thinking hard about the North & even harder about Scotland.

    Labour just can't get back into real contention without recovering some of their former Scottish citadels.

    That seems to me to be key to Labour's future.

    Jeremy queered their pitch to unionists by expressing support for another referendum. So where do they pick up voters?

    I am not an expert on Scotland, so I don't like to venture an opinion. (It would be interesting to hear from our Scottish posters if they think Labour could ever make a Scottish recovery).

    I am just pointing out that Scotland is more important to the Labour Party than vice versa!

    If I was voting for a Labour leader, I'd be interested to hear plans for a Scottish recovery.
    Any candidate who thinks taking the battle to the SNP in Scotland should be a priority needs their head examined. We need to maximise non-Tory seats in parliament after the next GE. An SNP landslide enables a Labour government.

    We have to do our bit in England and Wales.

    Edit: And so do the Lib Dems.
    What do you propose the LibDems do in order to maximise non-Tory seats and what will Labour do to help?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,003
    isam said:

    I can't imagine why any BAME or working class actor/musician might conclude that their chosen profession is stacked in favour of the talentless posh!!!
    https://twitter.com/miffythegamer/status/1219074173873594369

    Blimey, old Foxy's acting and singing skills have been evaluated by a lot of new critics in the last 5 days or so!

    Would they bother had he been singing, well or badly, from the centre left hymn sheet I wonder...
    There are several pretty wooden actors in the extended Fox family (though his father was fairly good), and AFAIK, they cover a fair spread of the political spectrum.
  • isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:


    Of course he was, his Dad owned the local factory and he went to private school!

    IT BECAME PRIVATE!

    Ahem. While he was there. Did his dad own the factory?
    Apparently so.
    Source? He was telling everyone he was a toolmaker as recently as this weekend. Was he really a member of the boss class? Where is this set out?
    To be fair, his Dad could have meant "the factory I worked in"

    Oxted looks lovely

    "And while Sir Keir has made frequent reference to his tool maker father, dad Rodney once boasted that he ran his own factory.

    Reflecting on his son's knighthood in 2014, Rodney Starmer wrote in Oxted's theatre newsletter that his son had spent six months before university working 'in my factory operating a production machine'."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7878643/Is-Labour-leadership-hopeful-Keir-Starmer-real-Mark-Darcy.html
    It sounds exactly like "the factory I worked in".
    Yes it seems like a disingenuous stretch from the Daily Mail there. PB esque!
    I'd have thought "my office/factory/station/bus stop" is in reasonably common use without implying ownership. If Starmer owned the factory then presumably he'd have been a director and the Mail will dig up the records showing that. Stay tuned for updates.

    In other news, I've got the box set of Lewis DVDs and did not watch QT until directed there by right (not left) wing sites bigging up the Foxmeister.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,864
    tlg86 said:

    I see the head honcho job at the BBC is up for grabs - surely a woman this time?

    Unless we put the Labour party in charge of the selection process.

    A deserving brother will put his name forward -- what about Tristram Hunt? He was parachuted into directorship of the V&A with no museum experience.

    He is ideal for director-general of the BBC -- he has actually got more experience in broadcasting than museums.

    Anyhow, I am sure a suitably qualified, privately-educated, Oxbridge male will emerge.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited January 2020

    isam said:

    philiph said:

    I can't help thinking that Starmer is a poor choice for Labour. I just don't see him connecting with or enthusing the core Labour voter or the traditional (as opposed to momentum) Labour members who they have relied on for the donkey work for years.

    That is not to say there is a better alternative. I suspect, and this is a theory that will never be tested, that Emily Thornberry would be the most successful of the candidates available, regardless of her flagellation. (Is that the right word for someone who is anti St Georges flag displays? Innocent face ;) )

    The thing is, for all the criticism Thornberrry got, and her weaselly way of trying to say she wasn't saying what she obviously was re the flag... there are plenty of working class people who would roll their eyes at a house with the Flag of St George on it. If it was so popular, more houses would have them
    Quite so. I said this repeatedly at the time and was mocked for it by people who would balk at the prospect of living next to White Flag Man.
    Could have been me doing the mocking!
  • kinabalu said:

    I am looking forward to re-watching them and enjoying them even more. I find your virtue signalling over this hilarious.

    This to me is not virtue signalling (although I agree that there is such a thing). I think the question of to what extent one finds the character of the artist impacts one's enjoyment of the art is quite an interesting and important one.
    I would refer you back to my comments on Tony Robinson or Eddie Izzard or to Stephen Fry's views on Wagner.

    Part of being an educated, informed and discerning adult is the ability to differentiate between people's political views and their skills and achievements in fields completely unconnected with politics.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,864

    geoffw said:


    Actually, if I was voting for the Labour leadership, I'd probably be thinking hard about the North & even harder about Scotland.

    Labour just can't get back into real contention without recovering some of their former Scottish citadels.

    That seems to me to be key to Labour's future.

    Jeremy queered their pitch to unionists by expressing support for another referendum. So where do they pick up voters?

    I am not an expert on Scotland, so I don't like to venture an opinion. (It would be interesting to hear from our Scottish posters if they think Labour could ever make a Scottish recovery).

    I am just pointing out that Scotland is more important to the Labour Party than vice versa!

    If I was voting for a Labour leader, I'd be interested to hear plans for a Scottish recovery.
    Any candidate who thinks taking the battle to the SNP in Scotland should be a priority needs their head examined. We need to maximise non-Tory seats in parliament after the next GE. An SNP landslide enables a Labour government.

    We have to do our bit in England and Wales.

    Edit: And so do the Lib Dems.
    What do you propose the LibDems do in order to maximise non-Tory seats and what will Labour do to help?
    Q. What do you propose the LibDems do in order to maximise non-Tory seats.

    A. They need to vote Labour and stop belly-aching.

    Q. What will Labour do to help?

    A. Nothing.

    Surely, the LibDems have learnt that by now ....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,100
    philiph said:

    Actors? People who are over paid for prentending to be someone else. How they have generated such earning power or influence for people with so little talent but such great ego defies any logic.

    But the great actors have something very special. What they do - the performances - does constitute art IMO. It can be profound and moving and beautiful.

    But I agree with you that most acting does not reach these heights. For example, there is nothing profound or moving or beautiful about Fox as "Hathaway" in Lewis. He's just doing a job there.

    Only picking on him since he's the topic btw. He's not unusual in this.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,709
    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    I can't imagine why any BAME or working class actor/musician might conclude that their chosen profession is stacked in favour of the talentless posh!!!
    https://twitter.com/miffythegamer/status/1219074173873594369

    Blimey, old Foxy's acting and singing skills have been evaluated by a lot of new critics in the last 5 days or so!

    Would they bother had he been singing, well or badly, from the centre left hymn sheet I wonder...
    There are several pretty wooden actors in the extended Fox family (though his father was fairly good), and AFAIK, they cover a fair spread of the political spectrum.
    I've only recall seeing his Uncle (Edward) Fox's work - Day of the Jackal, which I thought was very good.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I rather liked "Lewis" and thought the Hathaway character was very well-portrayed.

    In the Morse universe, however, "Endeavour" is much the best show.
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981

    geoffw said:


    Actually, if I was voting for the Labour leadership, I'd probably be thinking hard about the North & even harder about Scotland.

    Labour just can't get back into real contention without recovering some of their former Scottish citadels.

    That seems to me to be key to Labour's future.

    Jeremy queered their pitch to unionists by expressing support for another referendum. So where do they pick up voters?

    I am not an expert on Scotland, so I don't like to venture an opinion. (It would be interesting to hear from our Scottish posters if they think Labour could ever make a Scottish recovery).

    I am just pointing out that Scotland is more important to the Labour Party than vice versa!

    If I was voting for a Labour leader, I'd be interested to hear plans for a Scottish recovery.
    Any candidate who thinks taking the battle to the SNP in Scotland should be a priority needs their head examined. We need to maximise non-Tory seats in parliament after the next GE. An SNP landslide enables a Labour government.

    We have to do our bit in England and Wales.

    Edit: And so do the Lib Dems.
    What do you propose the LibDems do in order to maximise non-Tory seats and what will Labour do to help?
    In both 2015 and 2019 there was an Anti-SNP vote in England and Wales that went Conservative to stop the SNP coming into power.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    What's going on with HS2 costs ?
    Do contractors just fill out how much their blank cheque should be for to the Government if they fancy doing some of the work for it ?

    @Casino_Royale got involved

    😉
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    edited January 2020
    philiph said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I can't imagine why any BAME or working class actor/musician might conclude that their chosen profession is stacked in favour of the talentless posh!!!
    https://twitter.com/miffythegamer/status/1219074173873594369

    Blimey, old Foxy's acting and singing skills have been evaluated by a lot of new critics in the last 5 days or so!

    Would they bother had he been singing, well or badly, from the centre left hymn sheet I wonder...

    It depends, I guess. I am struggling to see how Lozza managed to get a singing gig on national TV other than for being who he is - a posh, white bloke with right wing opinions. If that is not privilege and identity poilitics I do not know what is. We need to be brave and call it out. Don't you agree?

    No, I disagree. He probably got the gig because he is already famous as an actor in a popular tv show, and people criticising him for his acting and singing talent, or lack of it, now, when they didn't used to a week ago, are just predictably showing themselves to be complete idiots

    I'd never heard of him before this weekend.
    He was wheeled onto QT as a classic clickbait ruse by the BBC and also to make up for the many dozens of BBC comedians (= left wing, unfunny) that appear on it week in week out and said something which some people describe as right wing. This then duly pushed all the right buttons of the left and he has become more of a celeb than he was hitherto.

    Of course he has. Give an actor a stage and they'll seize it with gusto. It has always beat me why people allow themselves to be so wound up by it. Actors will always do what actors do. They are supremely self unaware, magnificently opinionated and usually as thick as two short planks - no matter what their politics.

    I don't think that is fair. Actors are just people who chose to form.
    Actors? People who are over paid for prentending to be someone else. How they have generated such earning power or influence for people with so little talent but such great ego defies any logic.
    The average actor earns little more than minimum wage which is why so many do waiting etc between auditions.

    High earning TV or Hollywood actors like Fox are few and far between but he is entitled to his view as much as anyone else
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,864

    I rather liked "Lewis" and thought the Hathaway character was very well-portrayed.

    In the Morse universe, however, "Endeavour" is much the best show.

    The Morse Universe is tenth-rate writing & acting, wrapped up in gratuitous snobbery, archaisms and pretentiousness.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,003
    Cyclefree said:

    Deaths in films:

    1. Kes.
    2. Bambi’s mother.
    3. Ellie in Up.
    4. The little boy in Marcelino, Pan y Vino - a film no-one will have heard of but was shown in Italy when I was a child. I cried buckets when I saw it.

    Plus I also sob at the scene at the railway at the end of The Railway Station: the train disappearing, the steam, the girl standing there, then the cry of “Daddy, my Daddy!”

    Il Postino - not least as its lead tragically died shortly after making the film.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    I rather liked "Lewis" and thought the Hathaway character was very well-portrayed.

    In the Morse universe, however, "Endeavour" is much the best show.

    The Morse Universe is tenth-rate writing & acting, wrapped up in gratuitous snobbery, archaisms and pretentiousness.
    Alternatively, it's a bit of fun for a Sunday evening.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,948
    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    I can't imagine why any BAME or working class actor/musician might conclude that their chosen profession is stacked in favour of the talentless posh!!!
    https://twitter.com/miffythegamer/status/1219074173873594369

    Blimey, old Foxy's acting and singing skills have been evaluated by a lot of new critics in the last 5 days or so!

    Would they bother had he been singing, well or badly, from the centre left hymn sheet I wonder...
    There are several pretty wooden actors in the extended Fox family (though his father was fairly good), and AFAIK, they cover a fair spread of the political spectrum.
    I've only recall seeing his Uncle (Edward) Fox's work - Day of the Jackal, which I thought was very good.
    He (Edward Fox) is quite good in "A Bridge Too Far"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOOcrunnLYE
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Cyclefree said:

    Deaths in films:

    2. Bambi’s mother.

    I was very nearly thrown out of the cinema aged five when I announced in a stage whisper that echoed round the auditorium "this is the bit where Bambi's mother dies".
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,296
    I see Trump's lawyers have decided on an unbeatable argument:
    "Abuse of power is not an impeachable crime, argues Trump lawyer"
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 5,778
    Pulpstar said:

    What's going on with HS2 costs ?
    Do contractors just fill out how much their blank cheque should be for to the Government if they fancy doing some of the work for it ?

    I'm surprised a fraud investigation hasn't been started.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,100
    edited January 2020
    isam said:

    Of course he was, his Dad owned the local factory and he went to private school!

    I'm hoping that we (Labour) can move away from class and more towards values. Here are our values. Here are the key policies informed by those values. Don't like them? Why not? Tell us. Tell us and we will have a robust conversation. We will correct you where you have us all wrong - and where you have us right, but genuinely disagree with us, we will seek to convert you. If at the end of that you still don't like or agree with our values and policies, OK, don't vote for us then. It's not compulsory.
  • tlg86 said:

    I see the head honcho job at the BBC is up for grabs - surely a woman this time?

    Unless we put the Labour party in charge of the selection process.

    A deserving brother will put his name forward -- what about Tristram Hunt? He was parachuted into directorship of the V&A with no museum experience.

    He is ideal for director-general of the BBC -- he has actually got more experience in broadcasting than museums.

    Anyhow, I am sure a suitably qualified, privately-educated, Oxbridge male will emerge.
    And if it is an actual card-carrying Conservative appointed by a Conservative prime minister, he will be denounced as a raving trot anyway, cf Chris Patten.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Of course he was, his Dad owned the local factory and he went to private school!

    I'm hoping that we (Labour) can move away from class and more towards values. Here are our values. Here are the key policies informed by those values. Don't like them? Why not? Tell us. Tell us and we will have a robust conversation. We will correct you where you have us all wrong. And where you have us right but genuinely disagree with us we will seek to convert you. If at the end of that you still don't like or agree with our values and policies, OK, don't vote for us then. It's not compulsory.
    Yes, I tend to agree. The only reason I would mention Keir Starmer's class or that of Jess Phillips, is due to people desperately straining to make it a selling point. The message should outweigh the messenger 100:1
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,695
    edited January 2020

    geoffw said:


    Actually, if I was voting for the Labour leadership, I'd probably be thinking hard about the North & even harder about Scotland.

    Labour just can't get back into real contention without recovering some of their former Scottish citadels.

    That seems to me to be key to Labour's future.

    Jeremy queered their pitch to unionists by expressing support for another referendum. So where do they pick up voters?

    I am not an expert on Scotland, so I don't like to venture an opinion. (It would be interesting to hear from our Scottish posters if they think Labour could ever make a Scottish recovery).

    I am just pointing out that Scotland is more important to the Labour Party than vice versa!

    If I was voting for a Labour leader, I'd be interested to hear plans for a Scottish recovery.
    Any candidate who thinks taking the battle to the SNP in Scotland should be a priority needs their head examined. We need to maximise non-Tory seats in parliament after the next GE. An SNP landslide enables a Labour government.

    We have to do our bit in England and Wales.

    Edit: And so do the Lib Dems.
    What do you propose the LibDems do in order to maximise non-Tory seats and what will Labour do to help?
    1 Drop the immature childish and very negative refrain of 'To Keep the Tories Out'

    2 Recognise that there is limited space for two left of centre parties in UK. To win a quantity of seats that will give relevance and power they will need to take seats from Labour and Tories.

    3 Have a good leader. policies and rounded campaign.

    4 Keep a massive distance from any promotion of tactical voting. It helps Labour far more than the LibDems. Generally speaking minor parties don't succeed by telling supporters to vote for another party. They can't be seen as Labours little helper any more than as the Tories little helper, if they want to progress.

    5 Learn that Labour don't help them.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,864
    philiph said:



    4 Keep a massive distance from any promotion of tactical voting. It helps Labour
    far more than the LibDems. Generally speaking minor parties don't succeed by telling supporters to vote for another party. They can't be seen as Labours little helper any more than as the Tories little helper, if they want to progress.

    .

    That is EXACTLY why the SNP succeeded.

    And why the LibDems and Plaid Cymru have failed.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    edited January 2020
    viewcode said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    I can't imagine why any BAME or working class actor/musician might conclude that their chosen profession is stacked in favour of the talentless posh!!!
    https://twitter.com/miffythegamer/status/1219074173873594369

    Blimey, old Foxy's acting and singing skills have been evaluated by a lot of new critics in the last 5 days or so!

    Would they bother had he been singing, well or badly, from the centre left hymn sheet I wonder...
    There are several pretty wooden actors in the extended Fox family (though his father was fairly good), and AFAIK, they cover a fair spread of the political spectrum.
    I've only recall seeing his Uncle (Edward) Fox's work - Day of the Jackal, which I thought was very good.
    He (Edward Fox) is quite good in "A Bridge Too Far"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOOcrunnLYE
    Freddie Fox, Edward's son, is playing Jeremy Bamber on ITV at 9pm on Wednesdays at the moment

    https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/a30417086/white-house-farm-itv-jeremy-bamber-murders/
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,775
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    To be honest, I always found him pretty weak in 'Lewis' - prone to mumbling his lines. As for his musicianship - I'm reminded of an open-mike night I once attended in a basement of a pub in Stoke Newington.

    His "Hathaway" in Lewis is a performance of quite some woodenness - unless of course Hathaway is meant to be wooden in which case it's a performance of great distinction.

    Either way, pity for me. I quite liked the programme at the time and will not now be able to watch any repeats.
    No more Picasso, Wagner, Gill et al for you then.
    Isn't @kinabalu saying that his programmes will no longer be repeated, rather than that he will refuse to watch them?
    Ah maybe. But with these left wing virtue signallers you never can tell.
    You always can tell.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,003
    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    What's going on with HS2 costs ?
    Do contractors just fill out how much their blank cheque should be for to the Government if they fancy doing some of the work for it ?

    @Casino_Royale got involved

    😉
    I didn't realise his fee was that large.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,683
    The Left seem to be back in favour of Fox hunting. How very odd.

    On fictional deaths: Marvin the Paranoid Android. Second: the end of His Dark Materials, although technically the bit that got me most was the one where no-one actually dies.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,003

    I see Trump's lawyers have decided on an unbeatable argument:
    "Abuse of power is not an impeachable crime, argues Trump lawyer"

    Hey Dershowitz has got away with worse... von Bulow; OJ Simpson; Epstein probation...
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,695

    philiph said:



    4 Keep a massive distance from any promotion of tactical voting. It helps Labour
    far more than the LibDems. Generally speaking minor parties don't succeed by telling supporters to vote for another party. They can't be seen as Labours little helper any more than as the Tories little helper, if they want to progress.

    .

    That is EXACTLY why the SNP succeeded.

    And why the LibDems and Plaid Cymru have failed.
    They seem very blind to the obvious in this regard.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,003

    kinabalu said:

    I am looking forward to re-watching them and enjoying them even more. I find your virtue signalling over this hilarious.

    This to me is not virtue signalling (although I agree that there is such a thing). I think the question of to what extent one finds the character of the artist impacts one's enjoyment of the art is quite an interesting and important one.
    I would refer you back to my comments on Tony Robinson or Eddie Izzard or to Stephen Fry's views on Wagner.

    Part of being an educated, informed and discerning adult is the ability to differentiate between people's political views and their skills and achievements in fields completely unconnected with politics.
    Quite.
    I don't share what seems to be widespread contempt for actors - it's really not as easy as it looks to be any good at it.
    But their political views are of no more import than mine (ie none).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,100

    The Morse Universe is tenth-rate writing & acting, wrapped up in gratuitous snobbery, archaisms and pretentiousness.

    But the John Thaw lead performance is surely of merit. And I have always found the books a good read and indeed have all of them. They are oddly excellent for when laid up with the flu.
  • kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Why not? I can understand having trouble watching something if it had later transpired a big player in it was convicted of a horrible crime or something, but for being gobby on QT?

    Have tried to clarify the rules around this in my reply to @TOPPING - in a nutshell, you are quite right, Fox is no monster, therefore it's a marginal thing whether I watch repeats of Lewis or not. If I was a massive fan of the prog I probably would despite Fox. But I only quite like it - i.e. it will not make much difference to me either way, so Fox just tilts the balance in favour of not watch.
    Are you serious? I just watched his comments on Megan Markle, and even though I am a centrist I can't see anything particularly offensive? Some audience member said he didn't have a right to a point of view because he was white and male and he quite rightly put them down. Have I missed something else? Did he advocate eugenics or something? I think if I cut out watching or enjoying the arts that had people in them that I didn't agree with their personal political views I would have to stop listening to half the music I play and numerous films and plays. It would be like book burning ffs!
  • geoffw said:


    Actually, if I was voting for the Labour leadership, I'd probably be thinking hard about the North & even harder about Scotland.

    Labour just can't get back into real contention without recovering some of their former Scottish citadels.

    That seems to me to be key to Labour's future.

    Jeremy queered their pitch to unionists by expressing support for another referendum. So where do they pick up voters?

    Conviction Unionists are I estimate about 35% tops, most of them over 50; that leaves quite a big and statistically growing pool to dabble in.

    I know I'm tedious about this, but since well before the first indy ref Devomax has consistently been the most popular option with Scottish voters when asked to choose between it and indy and the status quo.

    During the Smith commission on more powers after 2014, SLab were the main party who proposed the fewest and most limited extra powers for Holyrood.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Why not? I can understand having trouble watching something if it had later transpired a big player in it was convicted of a horrible crime or something, but for being gobby on QT?

    Have tried to clarify the rules around this in my reply to @TOPPING - in a nutshell, you are quite right, Fox is no monster, therefore it's a marginal thing whether I watch repeats of Lewis or not. If I was a massive fan of the prog I probably would despite Fox. But I only quite like it - i.e. it will not make much difference to me either way, so Fox just tilts the balance in favour of not watch.
    Are you serious? I just watched his comments on Megan Markle, and even though I am a centrist I can't see anything particularly offensive? Some audience member said he didn't have a right to a point of view because he was white and male and he quite rightly put them down. Have I missed something else? Did he advocate eugenics or something? I think if I cut out watching or enjoying the arts that had people in them that I didn't agree with their personal political views I would have to stop listening to half the music I play and numerous films and plays. It would be like book burning ffs!
    "It would be like book burning ffs!"

    Yes, it would. Completely agree with you. But it is the direction we seem to be heading; people judge others solely on whether they support "their team". Sad.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,003
    viewcode said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    I can't imagine why any BAME or working class actor/musician might conclude that their chosen profession is stacked in favour of the talentless posh!!!
    https://twitter.com/miffythegamer/status/1219074173873594369

    Blimey, old Foxy's acting and singing skills have been evaluated by a lot of new critics in the last 5 days or so!

    Would they bother had he been singing, well or badly, from the centre left hymn sheet I wonder...
    There are several pretty wooden actors in the extended Fox family (though his father was fairly good), and AFAIK, they cover a fair spread of the political spectrum.
    I've only recall seeing his Uncle (Edward) Fox's work - Day of the Jackal, which I thought was very good.
    He (Edward Fox) is quite good in "A Bridge Too Far"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOOcrunnLYE
    True - Edward was (pretty good) ham rather than wood.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,864
    kinabalu said:

    The Morse Universe is tenth-rate writing & acting, wrapped up in gratuitous snobbery, archaisms and pretentiousness.

    But the John Thaw lead performance is surely of merit. And I have always found the books a good read and indeed have all of them. They are oddly excellent for when laid up with the flu.
    The Morse books are poorly written. In terms of prose style, I think they are as clunking as Agatha Christie at her very worst.

    The best thing about John Thaw is his wonderful wife (now widow), Sheila Hancock.

    For flu, there really is nothing better than PG Wodehouse.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,642

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Why not? I can understand having trouble watching something if it had later transpired a big player in it was convicted of a horrible crime or something, but for being gobby on QT?

    Have tried to clarify the rules around this in my reply to @TOPPING - in a nutshell, you are quite right, Fox is no monster, therefore it's a marginal thing whether I watch repeats of Lewis or not. If I was a massive fan of the prog I probably would despite Fox. But I only quite like it - i.e. it will not make much difference to me either way, so Fox just tilts the balance in favour of not watch.
    Are you serious? I just watched his comments on Megan Markle, and even though I am a centrist I can't see anything particularly offensive? Some audience member said he didn't have a right to a point of view because he was white and male and he quite rightly put them down. Have I missed something else? Did he advocate eugenics or something? I think if I cut out watching or enjoying the arts that had people in them that I didn't agree with their personal political views I would have to stop listening to half the music I play and numerous films and plays. It would be like book burning ffs!
    Please don't go on about it; @kinabalu is already, rightly, feeling quite embarrassed about his previously stated position.
  • On fictional deaths, has anyone mentioned Mordin Solus yet?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,003

    kinabalu said:

    The Morse Universe is tenth-rate writing & acting, wrapped up in gratuitous snobbery, archaisms and pretentiousness.

    But the John Thaw lead performance is surely of merit. And I have always found the books a good read and indeed have all of them. They are oddly excellent for when laid up with the flu.
    The Morse books are poorly written. In terms of prose style, I think they are as clunking as Agatha Christie at her very worst.

    The best thing about John Thaw is his wonderful wife (now widow), Sheila Hancock.

    For flu, there really is nothing better than PG Wodehouse.
    Patrick O'Brien.
  • TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    I agree with you. Starmer is being criticised for no more than this: That he had the political nous to realise that the Corbynites would not be vulnerable until Corbyn had decisively lost a general election, at which point members would be open to a change of direction, and that a candidate who could not be accused of trying to undermine Corbyn's position would be best placed to take advantage of that. He is in the game, whereas the likes of Hilary Benn, Owen Smith, Yvette Cooper and Tom Watson are not. For "unimaginative" I see "clear strategic political thinking."

    Furthermore, there is enough in Starmer's record to suggest that he is far from the centrist politician that Momentum are vainly claiming he is. That, and the fact that he has kept at arms length from the infighting thus far means he is of all the candidates probably the one with most potential to reunify the party from a position of strength.

    John Smith was also caricatured as an unimaginative barrister type prior to his appointment, yet at the point of his death Labour was enjoying 20%+ opinion poll leads. It turned out that competance was exactly what appealed to the public in contrast to the flamboyant Kinnock years.

    The Times have already exposed Starmer as a raving trot who was involved with a subversive far left magazine as recently as 1986.
    Of course he was, his Dad owned the local factory and he went to private school!
    IT BECAME PRIVATE!
    WHILE HE WAS THERE!
    Yes exactly. And we don't know whether they made existing pupils pay - my guess? No.

    Plus when he was considering schools, when his family was considering schools, they didn't send him to a private one. It is critical that it became one, as you rightly say, when he was there and hence the charge that he went to a private school is blunted completely.
    ….and if he did why the fuck should it matter, except to morons. I loathe the current PM, but the fact he went to Eton is completely irrelevant. His parents made that decision for him, so it was neither as a result of his own skill and hard work, or, if one's chippyness prefers, his "fault".
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,100
    isam said:

    I think it is for the viewer to detatch themselves from the actors personal views. Sir Patrick Stewart is in my favourite Frasier episode, but I reckon I would argue with him if he posted on here.. still love "The Doctor Is Out" though

    It is and it's a personal decision. It's easier where we are just talking being left or right wing politically. Seems a little precious to stop listening to a song you used to love because you find out that the singer doesn't support nationalization of energy and water.

    But if you find out they are, say, viscerally racist? That, I suggest, is quite a different matter.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,695
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Why not? I can understand having trouble watching something if it had later transpired a big player in it was convicted of a horrible crime or something, but for being gobby on QT?

    Have tried to clarify the rules around this in my reply to @TOPPING - in a nutshell, you are quite right, Fox is no monster, therefore it's a marginal thing whether I watch repeats of Lewis or not. If I was a massive fan of the prog I probably would despite Fox. But I only quite like it - i.e. it will not make much difference to me either way, so Fox just tilts the balance in favour of not watch.
    Are you serious? I just watched his comments on Megan Markle, and even though I am a centrist I can't see anything particularly offensive? Some audience member said he didn't have a right to a point of view because he was white and male and he quite rightly put them down. Have I missed something else? Did he advocate eugenics or something? I think if I cut out watching or enjoying the arts that had people in them that I didn't agree with their personal political views I would have to stop listening to half the music I play and numerous films and plays. It would be like book burning ffs!
    "It would be like book burning ffs!"

    Yes, it would. Completely agree with you. But it is the direction we seem to be heading; people judge others solely on whether they support "their team". Sad.
    This is a spin off of the 'Never Kiss a Tory', 'Couldn't have a Tory as a friend' or the 'Anything but a Tory' lines we hear so often. The left love to demonise the other side. I don't think I have ever heard Couldn't Kiss a communist / socialist / Labour / or any other left leaning option.

    To the majority who cohabit across the lines it is negative, stupid, immature and off putting. Who wants to vote for something based on prejudice and hate?

    When the left grow up and realise we are all the same with very similar objectives but different routes to achieve them they will be in a better place to gain wider trust, more votes and maybe power.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    I agree with you. Starmer is being criticised for no more than this: That he had the political nous to realise that the Corbynites would not be vulnerable until Corbyn had decisively lost a general election, at which point members would be open to a change of direction, and that a candidate who could not be accused of trying to undermine Corbyn's position would be best placed to take advantage of that. He is in the game, whereas the likes of Hilary Benn, Owen Smith, Yvette Cooper and Tom Watson are not. For "unimaginative" I see "clear strategic political thinking."

    Furthermore, there is enough in Starmer's record to suggest that he is far from the centrist politician that Momentum are vainly claiming he is. That, and the fact that he has kept at arms length from the infighting thus far means he is of all the candidates probably the one with most potential to reunify the party from a position of strength.

    John Smith was also caricatured as an unimaginative barrister type prior to his appointment, yet at the point of his death Labour was enjoying 20%+ opinion poll leads. It turned out that competance was exactly what appealed to the public in contrast to the flamboyant Kinnock years.

    The Times have already exposed Starmer as a raving trot who was involved with a subversive far left magazine as recently as 1986.
    Of course he was, his Dad owned the local factory and he went to private school!
    IT BECAME PRIVATE!
    WHILE HE WAS THERE!
    Yes exactly. And we don't know whether they made existing pupils pay - my guess? No.

    Plus when he was considering schools, when his family was considering schools, they didn't send him to a private one. It is critical that it became one, as you rightly say, when he was there and hence the charge that he went to a private school is blunted completely.
    ….and if he did why the fuck should it matter, except to morons. I loathe the current PM, but the fact he went to Eton is completely irrelevant. His parents made that decision for him, so it was neither as a result of his own skill and hard work, or, if one's chippyness prefers, his "fault".
    It should matter if it proves he is being sold as something that he isn't. "A working class lad made good" wouldn't have gone to private school and his Dad wouldn't have been the boss at the factory. But maybe he didn't and his Dad wasn't.
  • kinabalu said:

    The Morse Universe is tenth-rate writing & acting, wrapped up in gratuitous snobbery, archaisms and pretentiousness.

    But the John Thaw lead performance is surely of merit. And I have always found the books a good read and indeed have all of them. They are oddly excellent for when laid up with the flu.
    The best things about the original Morse series were John Thaw's performance, the classical music, the theme tune and incidental music by Barrington Pheloung, the sweeping shots of the Oxfordshire countryside in summer and Morse's quoting Milton.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,003
    Anyone notice Parasite got the SAG award for best ensemble ?

    Might be a decent outside bet for the best picture Oscar, as around 50% winning the former have gone on to win the latter.

    Good movie, too.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,864
    edited January 2020

    kinabalu said:

    The Morse Universe is tenth-rate writing & acting, wrapped up in gratuitous snobbery, archaisms and pretentiousness.

    But the John Thaw lead performance is surely of merit. And I have always found the books a good read and indeed have all of them. They are oddly excellent for when laid up with the flu.
    The best things about the original Morse series were John Thaw's performance, the classical music, the theme tune and incidental music by Barrington Pheloung, the sweeping shots of the Oxfordshire countryside in summer and Morse's quoting Milton.
    The only thing I liked in Morse was the portrayal of the Fellows of the Colleges as lecherous, drink-sodden, drug-addled, sexual perverts.

    The one in which the Master of the College is a devil-worshipper is a particularly fine portrait.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited January 2020
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    I think it is for the viewer to detatch themselves from the actors personal views. Sir Patrick Stewart is in my favourite Frasier episode, but I reckon I would argue with him if he posted on here.. still love "The Doctor Is Out" though

    It is and it's a personal decision. It's easier where we are just talking being left or right wing politically. Seems a little precious to stop listening to a song you used to love because you find out that the singer doesn't support nationalization of energy and water.

    But if you find out they are, say, viscerally racist? That, I suggest, is quite a different matter.
    You can stop listening to the song if you find the singers unrelated views completely unacceptable, but you start to make yourself look a foolish if you go around telling anyone who will listen that the singers voice is crap because of them.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Morse Universe is tenth-rate writing & acting, wrapped up in gratuitous snobbery, archaisms and pretentiousness.

    But the John Thaw lead performance is surely of merit. And I have always found the books a good read and indeed have all of them. They are oddly excellent for when laid up with the flu.
    The Morse books are poorly written. In terms of prose style, I think they are as clunking as Agatha Christie at her very worst.

    The best thing about John Thaw is his wonderful wife (now widow), Sheila Hancock.

    For flu, there really is nothing better than PG Wodehouse.
    Patrick O'Brien.
    A nice easy read, but overrated. Nothing develops in the series, everyone is the same person in vol 15 as they are in vol 1 and it's all rather formulaic. It is customary to say how much better than Hornblower it all is, but look how Bush and Hornblower mature from teenage midshipmen to senior officers and how the relationship changes; Maturin/Aubrey, not so. And Bush is in with a shout in the affecting fictional death stakes, unlike anyone in O'Brien.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,100

    I would refer you back to my comments on Tony Robinson or Eddie Izzard or to Stephen Fry's views on Wagner.

    Part of being an educated, informed and discerning adult is the ability to differentiate between people's political views and their skills and achievements in fields completely unconnected with politics.

    Mainly agree with you. Certainly "art" is in trouble if the character or politics of the artist becomes a standard part of the appreciation metric.

    However, if you find out that somebody is monstrous can you truly enjoy their work exactly as much as when you were in ignorance of that?

    Many people would say not and I don't think that is the "wrong" answer. It's how they feel and the appreciation of art is inextricably bound up in how people feel.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    kinabalu said:

    The Morse Universe is tenth-rate writing & acting, wrapped up in gratuitous snobbery, archaisms and pretentiousness.

    But the John Thaw lead performance is surely of merit. And I have always found the books a good read and indeed have all of them. They are oddly excellent for when laid up with the flu.
    The best things about the original Morse series were John Thaw's performance, the classical music, the theme tune and incidental music by Barrington Pheloung, the sweeping shots of the Oxfordshire countryside in summer and Morse's quoting Milton.
    The only thing I liked in Morse was the portrayal of the Fellows of the Colleges as lecherous, drink-sodden, drug-addled, sexual perverts.

    The one in which the Master of the College is a devil-worshipper is a particularly fine portrait.
    That's just reportage.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,003
    edited January 2020
    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Morse Universe is tenth-rate writing & acting, wrapped up in gratuitous snobbery, archaisms and pretentiousness.

    But the John Thaw lead performance is surely of merit. And I have always found the books a good read and indeed have all of them. They are oddly excellent for when laid up with the flu.
    The Morse books are poorly written. In terms of prose style, I think they are as clunking as Agatha Christie at her very worst.

    The best thing about John Thaw is his wonderful wife (now widow), Sheila Hancock.

    For flu, there really is nothing better than PG Wodehouse.
    Patrick O'Brien.
    A nice easy read, but overrated. Nothing develops in the series, everyone is the same person in vol 15 as they are in vol 1 and it's all rather formulaic. It is customary to say how much better than Hornblower it all is, but look how Bush and Hornblower mature from teenage midshipmen to senior officers and how the relationship changes; Maturin/Aubrey, not so. And Bush is in with a shout in the affecting fictional death stakes, unlike anyone in O'Brien.
    What do you want when you have the flu ?
    Dostoevsky ? :smile:

    (Though I do remember reading the whole of Moby Dick when ill some years back.)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,100
    TOPPING said:

    Could you please keep us updated as and when you don't watch a repeat of Lewis.

    TIA.

    Well I would if I thought that people were genuinely interested - but I'm not convinced they are. As usual, I'm a voice in the wilderness.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Morse Universe is tenth-rate writing & acting, wrapped up in gratuitous snobbery, archaisms and pretentiousness.

    But the John Thaw lead performance is surely of merit. And I have always found the books a good read and indeed have all of them. They are oddly excellent for when laid up with the flu.
    The Morse books are poorly written. In terms of prose style, I think they are as clunking as Agatha Christie at her very worst.

    The best thing about John Thaw is his wonderful wife (now widow), Sheila Hancock.

    For flu, there really is nothing better than PG Wodehouse.
    Patrick O'Brien.
    A nice easy read, but overrated. Nothing develops in the series, everyone is the same person in vol 15 as they are in vol 1 and it's all rather formulaic. It is customary to say how much better than Hornblower it all is, but look how Bush and Hornblower mature from teenage midshipmen to senior officers and how the relationship changes; Maturin/Aubrey, not so. And Bush is in with a shout in the affecting fictional death stakes, unlike anyone in O'Brien.
    What do you want when you have the flu ?
    Dostoevsky ? :smile:

    (Though I do remember reading the whole of Moby Dick when ill some years back.)
    No, I want Patrick O'Brien! Or CS Forester. Or Simon Raven.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,003
    If @rcs1000 is uncontactable for the next few weeks...

    Radiohead Public Library: archive of band's work goes live
    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/jan/20/radiohead-public-library-archive-website
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,003
    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Morse Universe is tenth-rate writing & acting, wrapped up in gratuitous snobbery, archaisms and pretentiousness.

    But the John Thaw lead performance is surely of merit. And I have always found the books a good read and indeed have all of them. They are oddly excellent for when laid up with the flu.
    The Morse books are poorly written. In terms of prose style, I think they are as clunking as Agatha Christie at her very worst.

    The best thing about John Thaw is his wonderful wife (now widow), Sheila Hancock.

    For flu, there really is nothing better than PG Wodehouse.
    Patrick O'Brien.
    A nice easy read, but overrated. Nothing develops in the series, everyone is the same person in vol 15 as they are in vol 1 and it's all rather formulaic. It is customary to say how much better than Hornblower it all is, but look how Bush and Hornblower mature from teenage midshipmen to senior officers and how the relationship changes; Maturin/Aubrey, not so. And Bush is in with a shout in the affecting fictional death stakes, unlike anyone in O'Brien.
    What do you want when you have the flu ?
    Dostoevsky ? :smile:

    (Though I do remember reading the whole of Moby Dick when ill some years back.)
    No, I want Patrick O'Brien! Or CS Forester. Or Simon Raven.
    Correct !
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,695
    kinabalu said:

    I would refer you back to my comments on Tony Robinson or Eddie Izzard or to Stephen Fry's views on Wagner.

    Part of being an educated, informed and discerning adult is the ability to differentiate between people's political views and their skills and achievements in fields completely unconnected with politics.

    Mainly agree with you. Certainly "art" is in trouble if the character or politics of the artist becomes a standard part of the appreciation metric.

    However, if you find out that somebody is monstrous can you truly enjoy their work exactly as much as when you were in ignorance of that?

    Many people would say not and I don't think that is the "wrong" answer. It's how they feel and the appreciation of art is inextricably bound up in how people feel.
    Suggest you start with Michael Jackson as an example. His work is just about excluded from major Radio and TV output now. Jimmy Saville would be example number two. I agree with you, I have no interest in the output they generated whilst working.

    If an artist is hard left, hard right, communist or fascist I am much more likely to take the output on the merit of the 'art' than the knowledge of the individuals views.

    Same with religion. They can be any strain or none and it will not influence my opinion of the art or performance.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,642
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Could you please keep us updated as and when you don't watch a repeat of Lewis.

    TIA.

    Well I would if I thought that people were genuinely interested - but I'm not convinced they are. As usual, I'm a voice in the wilderness.
    If @kinabalu doesn't watch a repeat of Lewis in the wilderness and no one is around, has he really not watched it?
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 334
    On the topic of performers, whoever said last night that Ernie Wise was less talented than Eric is quite wrong; they were equally talented. You only have to look at Ernie's tap dancing in the "Singin' in the Rain" sketch.
  • Endillion said:

    I think we can safely make one prediction.

    The first party with a black or minority ethnic leader will NOT be Labour.

    The Tories, the SNP, Plaid Cymru, the LibDems, UKIP, the Brexit Party, Mebyon Kernow, the Yorkshire Party ..... they are all possible.

    But, not the Labour Party.

    Ed Miliband says hi.

    Although I'm not convinced he'd thank me for bringing this up.
    Those that think these things are vitally important tend to leave jewish people out of the count. The left often consider people of Jewish origin to be 'problematic', as they often dont neatly fit the marxist narrative of oppressed and the oppressor, and tend not to require, ask for or need state largesse in order to succeed. Not victomy enough for some and thus not thankful enough to worth putting geld their way.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,003
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Could you please keep us updated as and when you don't watch a repeat of Lewis.

    TIA.

    Well I would if I thought that people were genuinely interested - but I'm not convinced they are. As usual, I'm a voice in the wilderness.
    If @kinabalu doesn't watch a repeat of Lewis in the wilderness and no one is around, has he really not watched it?
    Now you're just flogging a dead Morse.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,393
    edited January 2020
    tlg86 said:

    I see the head honcho job at the BBC is up for grabs - surely a woman this time?

    Looks like 4 Labour luvvie women MPs could be available soon.
  • kinabalu said:

    I can't imagine why any BAME or working class actor/musician might conclude that their chosen profession is stacked in favour of the talentless posh!!!
    https://twitter.com/miffythegamer/status/1219074173873594369

    Touch of the Leonard Cohens there?

    Yep, Cohen without the talent. All very derivative. At some point he is going to start complaining he can't get gigs because of his views. Just you wait!

    The Lee Hurst of balladry. I see Lozza named his sprog Winston so the signs were there.

    Poor old Billie Piper, Chris Evans then this berk.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,948
    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Morse Universe is tenth-rate writing & acting, wrapped up in gratuitous snobbery, archaisms and pretentiousness.

    But the John Thaw lead performance is surely of merit. And I have always found the books a good read and indeed have all of them. They are oddly excellent for when laid up with the flu.
    The Morse books are poorly written. In terms of prose style, I think they are as clunking as Agatha Christie at her very worst.

    The best thing about John Thaw is his wonderful wife (now widow), Sheila Hancock.

    For flu, there really is nothing better than PG Wodehouse.
    Patrick O'Brien.
    A nice easy read, but overrated. Nothing develops in the series, everyone is the same person in vol 15 as they are in vol 1 and it's all rather formulaic. It is customary to say how much better than Hornblower it all is, but look how Bush and Hornblower mature from teenage midshipmen to senior officers and how the relationship changes; Maturin/Aubrey, not so. And Bush is in with a shout in the affecting fictional death stakes, unlike anyone in O'Brien.
    What do you want when you have the flu ?
    Dostoevsky ? :smile:

    (Though I do remember reading the whole of Moby Dick when ill some years back.)
    I have tried to get thru "Moby Dick", but nope: I peter out around page 78. I have a similar problem with "War of the Worlds". It's a sin not to finish a book, but I think I'll just have to live with it for those two. Some people's authorial voice just doesn't engage. Weirdly, I easily read Verne's The Purchase of the North Pole some months back and it held up rather well: not bad for a book written 130 years ago... :(
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,100
    edited January 2020
    isam said:

    You can stop listening to the song if you find the singers unrelated views completely unacceptable, but you start to make yourself look a foolish if you go around telling anyone who will listen that the singers voice is crap because of them.

    That is the important distinction. First of the below is fine, second one isn't.

    "Used to love Michael Jackson, especially the Thriller album, but I can't seem to enjoy it so much now, what with all the sick stuff that's come out about him. Still play it but not that often any more. Sad."

    "God, that sicko Michael Jackson. And to think that some people still rate him! They must have a screw loose if you ask me."

    On Fox, though, I don't think there are many lefties slagging him off who used to think he was great. It's more that they are passing an opinion on his acting and music for the very first time.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,393
    viewcode said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    I can't imagine why any BAME or working class actor/musician might conclude that their chosen profession is stacked in favour of the talentless posh!!!
    https://twitter.com/miffythegamer/status/1219074173873594369

    Blimey, old Foxy's acting and singing skills have been evaluated by a lot of new critics in the last 5 days or so!

    Would they bother had he been singing, well or badly, from the centre left hymn sheet I wonder...
    There are several pretty wooden actors in the extended Fox family (though his father was fairly good), and AFAIK, they cover a fair spread of the political spectrum.
    I've only recall seeing his Uncle (Edward) Fox's work - Day of the Jackal, which I thought was very good.
    He (Edward Fox) is quite good in "A Bridge Too Far"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOOcrunnLYE
    He was great in Edward and Mrs. S. Perhaps Larry could do a sequel on some other random royal[ish] couple. Any ideas anyone?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,187
    isam said:

    isam said:

    philiph said:

    I can't help thinking that Starmer is a poor choice for Labour. I just don't see him connecting with or enthusing the core Labour voter or the traditional (as opposed to momentum) Labour members who they have relied on for the donkey work for years.

    That is not to say there is a better alternative. I suspect, and this is a theory that will never be tested, that Emily Thornberry would be the most successful of the candidates available, regardless of her flagellation. (Is that the right word for someone who is anti St Georges flag displays? Innocent face ;) )

    The thing is, for all the criticism Thornberrry got, and her weaselly way of trying to say she wasn't saying what she obviously was re the flag... there are plenty of working class people who would roll their eyes at a house with the Flag of St George on it. If it was so popular, more houses would have them
    Quite so. I said this repeatedly at the time and was mocked for it by people who would balk at the prospect of living next to White Flag Man.
    Could have been me doing the mocking!
    Not sure it was actually. I seem to recall it was Richard N!!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Could you please keep us updated as and when you don't watch a repeat of Lewis.

    TIA.

    Well I would if I thought that people were genuinely interested - but I'm not convinced they are. As usual, I'm a voice in the wilderness.
    If @kinabalu doesn't watch a repeat of Lewis in the wilderness and no one is around, has he really not watched it?
    Now you're just flogging a dead Morse.
    There is a code which should be adhered to when discussing these matters.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    philiph said:

    I can't help thinking that Starmer is a poor choice for Labour. I just don't see him connecting with or enthusing the core Labour voter or the traditional (as opposed to momentum) Labour members who they have relied on for the donkey work for years.

    That is not to say there is a better alternative. I suspect, and this is a theory that will never be tested, that Emily Thornberry would be the most successful of the candidates available, regardless of her flagellation. (Is that the right word for someone who is anti St Georges flag displays? Innocent face ;) )

    The thing is, for all the criticism Thornberrry got, and her weaselly way of trying to say she wasn't saying what she obviously was re the flag... there are plenty of working class people who would roll their eyes at a house with the Flag of St George on it. If it was so popular, more houses would have them
    Quite so. I said this repeatedly at the time and was mocked for it by people who would balk at the prospect of living next to White Flag Man.
    Could have been me doing the mocking!
    Not sure it was actually. I seem to recall it was Richard N!!
    Probably not, I tend to agree with La Thornberry on this. Mind you, if I were a politician I wouldn't be so crass as to tweet about it.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Morse Universe is tenth-rate writing & acting, wrapped up in gratuitous snobbery, archaisms and pretentiousness.

    But the John Thaw lead performance is surely of merit. And I have always found the books a good read and indeed have all of them. They are oddly excellent for when laid up with the flu.
    The Morse books are poorly written. In terms of prose style, I think they are as clunking as Agatha Christie at her very worst.

    The best thing about John Thaw is his wonderful wife (now widow), Sheila Hancock.

    For flu, there really is nothing better than PG Wodehouse.
    Patrick O'Brien.
    A nice easy read, but overrated. Nothing develops in the series, everyone is the same person in vol 15 as they are in vol 1 and it's all rather formulaic. It is customary to say how much better than Hornblower it all is, but look how Bush and Hornblower mature from teenage midshipmen to senior officers and how the relationship changes; Maturin/Aubrey, not so. And Bush is in with a shout in the affecting fictional death stakes, unlike anyone in O'Brien.
    What do you want when you have the flu ?
    Dostoevsky ? :smile:

    (Though I do remember reading the whole of Moby Dick when ill some years back.)
    No, I want Patrick O'Brien! Or CS Forester. Or Simon Raven.
    I must salute your literary taste for the very good reason it accords with mine. Have you read John Biggins? I think he has at least some of the qualities of the first two writers.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 17,631

    kinabalu said:

    The Morse Universe is tenth-rate writing & acting, wrapped up in gratuitous snobbery, archaisms and pretentiousness.

    But the John Thaw lead performance is surely of merit. And I have always found the books a good read and indeed have all of them. They are oddly excellent for when laid up with the flu.
    The best things about the original Morse series were John Thaw's performance, the classical music, the theme tune and incidental music by Barrington Pheloung, the sweeping shots of the Oxfordshire countryside in summer and Morse's quoting Milton.
    I realised some time ago that the key to watching these "Whodunit?" series is not to care who the murderer is. Focusing on the lead characters personalities and their interactions is much more rewarding than fixating on the silly contrived plots.

    I think Hathaway is a great character with lots of complexity, and played very well by Mr Fox.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,187

    isam said:

    isam said:

    philiph said:

    I can't help thinking that Starmer is a poor choice for Labour. I just don't see him connecting with or enthusing the core Labour voter or the traditional (as opposed to momentum) Labour members who they have relied on for the donkey work for years.

    That is not to say there is a better alternative. I suspect, and this is a theory that will never be tested, that Emily Thornberry would be the most successful of the candidates available, regardless of her flagellation. (Is that the right word for someone who is anti St Georges flag displays? Innocent face ;) )

    The thing is, for all the criticism Thornberrry got, and her weaselly way of trying to say she wasn't saying what she obviously was re the flag... there are plenty of working class people who would roll their eyes at a house with the Flag of St George on it. If it was so popular, more houses would have them
    Quite so. I said this repeatedly at the time and was mocked for it by people who would balk at the prospect of living next to White Flag Man.
    Could have been me doing the mocking!
    Not sure it was actually. I seem to recall it was Richard N!!
    Probably not, I tend to agree with La Thornberry on this. Mind you, if I were a politician I wouldn't be so crass as to tweet about it.
    Fair enough, it was a long time ago, it was probably someone else.

    But mocked I was. I certainly wouldn't want to live next to a house like that – and I'm a fully committed England supporter in both football and cricket!
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    You can stop listening to the song if you find the singers unrelated views completely unacceptable, but you start to make yourself look a foolish if you go around telling anyone who will listen that the singers voice is crap because of them.

    That is the important distinction. First of the below is fine, second one isn't.

    "Used to love Michael Jackson, especially the Thriller album, but I can't seem to enjoy it so much now, what with all the sick stuff that's come out about him. Still play it but not that often any more. Sad."

    "God, that sicko Michael Jackson. And to think that some people still rate him! They must have a screw loose if you ask me."

    On Fox, though, I don't think there are many lefties slagging him off who used to think he was great. It's more that they are passing an opinion on his acting and music for the very first time.
    Yes.

    The lefties slagging his singing and acting off are just confirming their blinkered, herd like thinking.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    geoffw said:


    Actually, if I was voting for the Labour leadership, I'd probably be thinking hard about the North & even harder about Scotland.

    Labour just can't get back into real contention without recovering some of their former Scottish citadels.

    That seems to me to be key to Labour's future.

    Jeremy queered their pitch to unionists by expressing support for another referendum. So where do they pick up voters?

    They can forget about Scotland. It's gone.

    The broader picture is that Labour in England may also be irrecoverable, at least in anything other than the very long term. The memory of the Corbyn episode could turn out to be as destructive in much of the old heartland as that of Thatcher was for the Tories for decades in Scotland and the mining communities, and they've nowhere else to go for an alternative supply of seats to make up the difference. The South-East won't suddenly discover a great enthusiasm for the North London Cult any time soon.

    geoffw said:


    Actually, if I was voting for the Labour leadership, I'd probably be thinking hard about the North & even harder about Scotland.

    Labour just can't get back into real contention without recovering some of their former Scottish citadels.

    That seems to me to be key to Labour's future.

    Jeremy queered their pitch to unionists by expressing support for another referendum. So where do they pick up voters?

    They can forget about Scotland. It's gone.

    The broader picture is that Labour in England may also be irrecoverable, at least in anything other than the very long term. The memory of the Corbyn episode could turn out to be as destructive in much of the old heartland as that of Thatcher was for the Tories for decades in Scotland and the mining communities, and they've nowhere else to go for an alternative supply of seats to make up the difference. The South-East won't suddenly discover a great enthusiasm for the North London Cult any time soon.
    I disagree. If Labour can recover to circa 40% across GB, I would expect to see its vote share in Scotland back at 30% - particularly if the signs of division we are beginning to see in SNP ranks increase further.
    The point is also missed that Labour's GB share under Corbyn in 2019 was 33% - higher than the 31.2% won by Milliband in 2015. Moreover, Labour does hold 15 seats today which in 2015 returned Tory MPs - the traffic has not been one-way.
  • viewcode said:

    I have tried to get thru "Moby Dick", but nope: I peter out around page 78. I have a similar problem with "War of the Worlds". It's a sin not to finish a book, but I think I'll just have to live with it for those two.

    That's rather a pity - Moby Dick really is one the most remarkable books in the English language. It totally defies pigeon-holing - it's not simply a novel, since a lot of is the thrilling factual account of how whaling used to be done, and some of the other chapters are long but always fascinating digressions on a bunch of other topics. I'd suggest persevering, it really is worth it!

    War of the Worlds isn't in the same league but it a fun read.
  • kinabalu said:

    I can't imagine why any BAME or working class actor/musician might conclude that their chosen profession is stacked in favour of the talentless posh!!!
    https://twitter.com/miffythegamer/status/1219074173873594369

    Touch of the Leonard Cohens there?

    Yep, Cohen without the talent. All very derivative. At some point he is going to start complaining he can't get gigs because of his views. Just you wait!

    The Lee Hurst of balladry. I see Lozza named his sprog Winston so the signs were there.

    Poor old Billie Piper, Chris Evans then this berk.
    Oi! Chris Evans is one of our leading political interviewers. Here he is taking Boris apart while plugging the Churchill book.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdbDOvmLDz0
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 3,983
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Of course he was, his Dad owned the local factory and he went to private school!

    I'm hoping that we (Labour) can move away from class and more towards values. Here are our values. Here are the key policies informed by those values. Don't like them? Why not? Tell us. Tell us and we will have a robust conversation. We will correct you where you have us all wrong. And where you have us right but genuinely disagree with us we will seek to convert you. If at the end of that you still don't like or agree with our values and policies, OK, don't vote for us then. It's not compulsory.
    Yes, I tend to agree. The only reason I would mention Keir Starmer's class or that of Jess Phillips, is due to people desperately straining to make it a selling point. The message should outweigh the messenger 100:1
    In Starmer's case it is more that he was trying to avoid class becoming a selling point. He has every right to challenge inaccurate preconceptions based on his eventual career as an Oxbridge-educated barrister and DPP. I view his comments as defusing that - his passage to a redbrick university following admission to a then grammar school on account of his passing the 11+ does not to me point to privilege having any part in his later achievement. He only made it to Oxford for a masters on the back of a first class honours at Leeds as an undergraduate studying law.

    Good for Starmer, his back story makes me think more, not less of him. He received no more of a leg up than did the current party leader, the initial difference between them being that Starmer was a touch more diligent and/or intelligent when it came to study and exams, to put it mildly.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Morse Universe is tenth-rate writing & acting, wrapped up in gratuitous snobbery, archaisms and pretentiousness.

    But the John Thaw lead performance is surely of merit. And I have always found the books a good read and indeed have all of them. They are oddly excellent for when laid up with the flu.
    The Morse books are poorly written. In terms of prose style, I think they are as clunking as Agatha Christie at her very worst.

    The best thing about John Thaw is his wonderful wife (now widow), Sheila Hancock.

    For flu, there really is nothing better than PG Wodehouse.
    Patrick O'Brien.
    A nice easy read, but overrated. Nothing develops in the series, everyone is the same person in vol 15 as they are in vol 1 and it's all rather formulaic. It is customary to say how much better than Hornblower it all is, but look how Bush and Hornblower mature from teenage midshipmen to senior officers and how the relationship changes; Maturin/Aubrey, not so. And Bush is in with a shout in the affecting fictional death stakes, unlike anyone in O'Brien.
    What do you want when you have the flu ?
    Dostoevsky ? :smile:

    (Though I do remember reading the whole of Moby Dick when ill some years back.)
    No, I want Patrick O'Brien! Or CS Forester. Or Simon Raven.
    I must salute your literary taste for the very good reason it accords with mine. Have you read John Biggins? I think he has at least some of the qualities of the first two writers.
    Hadn't heard of him, but will give him a go.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,100
    edited January 2020

    In other news, I've got the box set of Lewis DVDs and did not watch QT until directed there by right (not left) wing sites bigging up the Foxmeister.

    The irony is that for every person who no longer wishes to watch Lewis because of Fox there are probably half a dozen of the opposite persuasion who have never seen it and will now make a silly point doing so for that same reason. So your box set may well have appreciated in value.
This discussion has been closed.