politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Foxes and Hedgehogs – a tale of tactics without strategy
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Foxes and Hedgehogs – a tale of tactics without strategy
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” (Sun Tzu). Something those Remainer MPs behind the Benn Act would do well to reflect on. However successful it was in stopping a Halloween No Deal exit and, arguably, forcing Boris to negotiate a Withdrawal Agreement he could sell to his party, its effect has been to put the Tories in a strong position as they embark on their General Election campaign. How so?
Comments
-
first?0
-
Not primus inter pares.0
-
Primo?0
-
Top 20 - like Watford
0 -
If the Withdrawal Agreement is passed then there will not be No Deal as the Deal will have been delivered. The fact Boris may not agree to extend the transition period and keep the UK in the Single Market and Customs Union indefinitely is not No Deal it is continuing FTA talks with the EU as an Independent nation.
No Deal would have meant no Withdrawal Agreement agreed and passed and no FTA talks with the EU.
0 -
This is a good, thought-provoking article. Zeroing in on the question, if Britain should look West to the US or to Europe or China, the missing bloc is the CPTPP one (led by Australia, Canada and Japan). My preference would be the European bloc first, then CPTPP, then the US a distant third and China a very distant fourth. I suspect the British public would be the same. They might tolerate, just about, a bit more Thatcherism, but I don't think they would take the complete sell-out to corporate interest that exists in the USA. If the Tories tried, they would get decimated at the next election.0
-
If Boris wins a Tory majority, with the 21 Tory rebels mostly not standing again or deselected and replaced by Boris loyalists and the DUP not needed to get a Commons majority, the Benn Act of course would have no chance of winning a majority of MPs again anyway0
-
That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.0 -
Which league?Ave_it said:Top 20 - like Watford
0 -
The US is our biggest single export destination, realistically we want trade deals with them first after the EUGabs2 said:This is a good, thought-provoking article. Zeroing in on the question, if Britain should look West to the US or to Europe or China, the missing bloc is the CPTPP one (led by Australia, Canada and Japan). My preference would be the European bloc first, then CPTPP, then the US a distant third and China a very distant fourth. I suspect the British public would be the same. They might tolerate, just about, a bit more Thatcherism, but I don't think they would take the complete sell-out to corporate interest that exists in the USA. If the Tories tried, they would get decimated at the next election.
0 -
MarqueeMark said:
Which league?Ave_it said:Top 20 - like Watford
We need to be preparing for the Championship now or we will go down again next season too0 -
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.0 -
A host of state polls for the Democrats:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/
Summary: Biden is still the one to beat, Warren and Sanders the only serious rivals. Buttigieg? 1,3,5,5,5,4%, 6-9% nationally. He';s in good shape to be everyone favourite VP contender - unthreatening, intelligent, balances fears attendant on an elderly President. Anyone else? No.0 -
I second that. Great piece cyclefree so thoughtful.Gabs2 said:This is a good, thought-provoking article. Zeroing in on the question, if Britain should look West to the US or to Europe or China, the missing bloc is the CPTPP one (led by Australia, Canada and Japan). My preference would be the European bloc first, then CPTPP, then the US a distant third and China a very distant fourth. I suspect the British public would be the same. They might tolerate, just about, a bit more Thatcherism, but I don't think they would take the complete sell-out to corporate interest that exists in the USA. If the Tories tried, they would get decimated at the next election.
But what about the argument, whatever we want it ain’t that easy. China building Silk Road redux to swamp us and undermine us, we don’t want that anymore than being a poor post industrial nation soon we haven’t spent time and investment managing, or don’t want to be clobbered by a demographic time bomb we haven’t used the long lead time mitigating. What can we do post brexit other than sell out to US because they are cultural kith and kin.0 -
Sure, because there is infinite bandwidth in the public mind that allows for sensible debates about the hypotheticals of of what policy you'll adopt if your Plan A and your Plan B both fail.
Oh, wait, no there isn't.
This is pretty terrible advice, CycleFree. Really not up to your usual standard.0 -
Would that One Nation be England, after the other three have jumped ship?Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.0 -
You keep peddling this but if there is no agreement on the future relationship then without extension it is back to WTO rules, now if WTO rules is not no deal then fair enough I think you are being deceitful by claiming their can’t be a no deal brexit but the reality is that there is no agreement and no extension it is no deal.HYUFD said:If the Withdrawal Agreement is passed then there will not be No Deal as the Deal will have been delivered. The fact Boris may not agree to extend the transition period and keep the UK in the Single Market and Customs Union indefinitely is not No Deal it is continuing FTA talks with the EU as an Independent nation.
No Deal would have meant no Withdrawal Agreement agreed and passed and no FTA talks with the EU.1 -
Evening all
An interesting piece - I'm not quite sure why the negative jibes against Jo Swinson. The LD policy is Revoke if a majority is won or support a second vote if not.
I do think the opposition need to be clever here - as the article suggests, the WA is only the start of the journey out of the EU yet it has been billed as being the end of the journey.
Boris can wield No Deal as a weapon and clearly some of his candidates are happy to countenance that but we still don't know whether the next Parliament would, if confronted with No Deal on 31/1/20, vote for it.
Are we then to assume the WA has just been obfuscation and leaving without a WA on 31/1/20 remains the option? I doubt that but I do think leaving without an agreed FTA on 31/12/20 remains very much on the table.
So what could or would the Opposition do IF they were able to outvote the Conservatives in the next Parliament? I think the WA should be passed so we go into transition and then ensure the trade and political arrangements with the EU are as close to BINO as possible before we finally leave. That may take some time but no one would be in any rush would they?
We are continually told the 2016 Referendum result must be "respected" - fine but leaving and maintaining a close political and economic relationship with the EU achieves that as much as crashing out with no agreement at all.0 -
What’s the official reason the security report into interference in elections was not published HY? Was it simply time or official reason for lack of inclination?HYUFD said:If the Withdrawal Agreement is passed then there will not be No Deal as the Deal will have been delivered. The fact Boris may not agree to extend the transition period and keep the UK in the Single Market and Customs Union indefinitely is not No Deal it is continuing FTA talks with the EU as an Independent nation.
No Deal would have meant no Withdrawal Agreement agreed and passed and no FTA talks with the EU.
I posted my hunch on the last thread but didn’t get a response, i’’l post it again, I am right Cummings has a super system with strong security and restricted access arn’t I?
My hunch The report they wouldn’t publish, did recommendation in it suggest database’s and systems parties put together to profile and target voters is a key risk, and publishing would have drawn attention to it threatening election plan?
There have been references to the super system Cummings has built to win this election, but each time its caveated barely half a dozen people can get into it, it is extremely secure etc0 -
Well, I suspect your tongue is in your cheek - but arguably if the Tories had had the healthy majority they exoected in 2017 then TMay would have been beholden to neither the DUP nor the ERG and we would already have very softly Brexited.Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
And the most likely way we'll get ultra hard Brexit is if continued paralysis results in us hard-Brexit-by-default.
Therefore, if you are opposes to hardBrexit, vote Conservative!0 -
Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best0 -
I'm not sure the national and later state polls are worth a lot at this stage. It's all about momentum.NickPalmer said:A host of state polls for the Democrats:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/
Summary: Biden is still the one to beat, Warren and Sanders the only serious rivals. Buttigieg? 1,3,5,5,5,4%, 6-9% nationally. He';s in good shape to be everyone favourite VP contender - unthreatening, intelligent, balances fears attendant on an elderly President. Anyone else? No.
For a primary voter in Pennsylvania (28th April) this is all finger-in-the-air "who have I heard of and think is alright?" at this stage. All national media buzz, with the candidates not yet involved in local media markets and significant organisational resource. This isn't going to come into sharp focus in those areas when the field has been winnowed and Iowa/New Hampshire makes some people look like "winners" and others like "losers".
If Buttigieg comes out of those contests as one of three of four still in the game and looking like the fresh faced man with momentum, these polls mean nothing.0 -
-
-
-
The Nation voted Leave so that is One Nationnichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best0 -
You know nothing about the Conservtive Party.nichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best2 -
There is not, the Withdrawal Agreement is the Deal, a delay in completion of FTA talks and no extended transition period is not No Deal. That is only failing to agree and pass the Withdrawal Agreement leading to the EU refusing to start FTA talks toonichomar said:
You keep peddling this but if there is no agreement on the future relationship then without extension it is back to WTO rules, now if WTO rules is not no deal then fair enough I think you are being deceitful by claiming their can’t be a no deal brexit but the reality is that there is no agreement and no extension it is no deal.HYUFD said:If the Withdrawal Agreement is passed then there will not be No Deal as the Deal will have been delivered. The fact Boris may not agree to extend the transition period and keep the UK in the Single Market and Customs Union indefinitely is not No Deal it is continuing FTA talks with the EU as an Independent nation.
No Deal would have meant no Withdrawal Agreement agreed and passed and no FTA talks with the EU.0 -
Iflocal private school sixth form dragooned to canvas I seeHYUFD said:0 -
cyclefree makes a good point about those who know what they want having good chances of success. Time and again we can see people and groups who seem to be in a weak position emerge triumphant in the end because of certainty and passion, even in something stupid or terrible.
I'm not as sure about whether the Remainers are in as much danger as they could be because of the focus on the referendum alone. The remainers have themselves, through certainty and doggedness, ensured that we have not Brexited to date and seen the Leavers split. The Tories are aided a little, but BXP ensure the leaver vote is not unified and can still see Remainers win overall. Its understandable they won't focus on the post brexit battle.
I'm also not sure about this meme about the ERG happily being on board because they know they can no deal later, as wouldn't the same logic have led them to back the May deal?0 -
Except in our hearts.TheScreamingEagles said:Not primus inter pares.
0 -
Come on that’s complete crap, if the future relationship (note I don’t call it a FTA) isn’t extended if not agreed it is WTO rulesHYUFD said:
There is not, the Withdrawal Agreement is the Deal, a delay in completion of FTA talks and no extended transition period is not No Deal. That is only failing to agree and pass the Withdrawal Agreement leading to the EU refusing to start FTA talks toonichomar said:
You keep peddling this but if there is no agreement on the future relationship then without extension it is back to WTO rules, now if WTO rules is not no deal then fair enough I think you are being deceitful by claiming their can’t be a no deal brexit but the reality is that there is no agreement and no extension it is no deal.HYUFD said:If the Withdrawal Agreement is passed then there will not be No Deal as the Deal will have been delivered. The fact Boris may not agree to extend the transition period and keep the UK in the Single Market and Customs Union indefinitely is not No Deal it is continuing FTA talks with the EU as an Independent nation.
No Deal would have meant no Withdrawal Agreement agreed and passed and no FTA talks with the EU.0 -
I honestly thought this was an @AlastairMeeks article when I first read it !0
-
MarqueeMark said:
You know nothing about the Conservtive Party.nichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best
Enough to know i wouldn’t knowingly have anything to do with any of them0 -
HYUFD said:
The Nation voted Leave so that is One Nationnichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best
Bollox0 -
Very kind indeed, and very useful.AndyJS said:Declaration times in 2017 and 2015:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QKBkaUkK-z7xlqJG3cdE96jC5g1HMPOEmq_FuT1lTXo/edit#gid=0
1 -
Terrific article - and very helpful. Spot on. It seems to me that this election is really only about one thing: Leave or Remain. With the detail of Leave being left fairly open and not really discussed by all sides. This suits Leave, because embarrassing detail about life after 2020 could only be a problem right now. It suits Remain because they intend to Remain - and there is a good chance they will. They are not going to talk now about life after defeat.
This means a couple of things: the Leave v Remain fight will continue until one side or the other unarguably wins - and that may be some time off. If we leave on 31 Jan the Rejoin and Remain fight starts on 1 Feb. If we don't, the Remain fight will continue, whatever the election result.
Secondly, if we do leave, every single future issue will be contested in a situation in which manifestos have in most cases not been clear. The Tories would, if they win, claim a mandate for the transitional deal and, should they want to, the PD. But I think it is far too early to say what a Tory government with a working majority will actually want. It may bear no relation to the PD. Once he had won an election Boris's concern will be to win the next one, with whatever it takes to do so. Even if that is finding a way to Remain.
An issue which will come to the fore is the likely breakdown of relations between England and Scotland. The idea of a hard border, as hard as that between Finland and Russia, (which there would be in the end) at Gretna and Berwick will concentrate the mind wonderfully because it would be both essential and unthinkable.0 -
As I say, you know nothing.nichomar said:MarqueeMark said:
You know nothing about the Conservtive Party.nichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best
Enough to know i wouldn’t knowingly have anything to do with any of them1 -
No you don't, no government governs for the 100%, it governs primarily for those who voted for it to get re elected in terms of the policies it implements into law.stodge said:0 -
I've got half a memory of a Tony Benn aphorism that the Great British Public are good at using FPTP to arrive at the right outcome in an election. His examples were from the immediate post-war era, but you can see the same in the Conservative wins from 1979 to 1992; the Conservative share of the vote barely moved, but the different majorities reflected something of the relative confidence of the pubic in the government and opposition each time.NickPalmer said:Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
If the final result is a Conservative win, but with no majority or a small enough majority to effectively shackle BoJo (5? 15?), would that reflect where the country is? It feels like an awfully small landing spot for a collective unconscious.
0 -
FPT:
Seat totals are at the bottom of the document.HYUFD said:
Will have a lookAndyJS said:
Have you seen the spreadsheet I've put together which plugs this data into the Flavible regional seat forecasts?HYUFD said:Biggest swing from Labour to the Tories in the North East, the West Midlands and Wales
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1192838122838614022?s=20
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oKkOq3OQFkSd1v4Gd3AoDN-RkfCHa99d58L0cBCWRfs/edit#gid=00 -
Just working off of this (old) poll:
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1192822695412584452
Any significant swing (3% Con -> LD) since then, and a lot of true blue seats will be in serious trouble.
I have Witney(!), Wokingham, Henley(!!), Wantage, Esher and Walton, and Wycombe all being LD-leaning marginals in that case. The Tories could be left with just three seats in Oxfordshire and Berkshire.
Nothing would quite underscore the level of change in UK politics than the Conservatives losing leafy Oxon & Berks while challenging in Warrington, Leigh Barrow, Workington, Oldham, Keighley, Bradford S etc.0 -
Temporally until a FTA is agreed but that is not No Deal as the Withdrawal Agreement has been passed so WTO terms are not permanent as they would have been with No Deal and no Withdrawal Agreement agreed and passednichomar said:
Come on that’s complete crap, if the future relationship (note I don’t call it a FTA) isn’t extended if not agreed it is WTO rulesHYUFD said:
There is not, the Withdrawal Agreement is the Deal, a delay in completion of FTA talks and no extended transition period is not No Deal. That is only failing to agree and pass the Withdrawal Agreement leading to the EU refusing to start FTA talks toonichomar said:
You keep peddling this but if there is no agreement on the future relationship then without extension it is back to WTO rules, now if WTO rules is not no deal then fair enough I think you are being deceitful by claiming their can’t be a no deal brexit but the reality is that there is no agreement and no extension it is no deal.HYUFD said:If the Withdrawal Agreement is passed then there will not be No Deal as the Deal will have been delivered. The fact Boris may not agree to extend the transition period and keep the UK in the Single Market and Customs Union indefinitely is not No Deal it is continuing FTA talks with the EU as an Independent nation.
No Deal would have meant no Withdrawal Agreement agreed and passed and no FTA talks with the EU.0 -
And yet, how many of us, in 2016, voted without a '... but...' Before 2016, as a nation, we had a broad range of opinionson Europe (and if you were unambiguously on one side or the other I'd argue you hadn't properly understood the issue). Plenty of those who voted Remain saw the many shortcomings of the EU as an institution; plenty of those who voted Leave saw that membership also brought benefits and that leaving would not be straightforward. But now we all have to sit in one of two silos with one of two views on the matter.HYUFD said:
The Nation voted Leave so that is One Nationnichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best
I don't know what the answer to this is, apart from a lot more room for nuance and a bit more appetite for agreement where we can.0 -
I know a lot about the Conservative party and it’s members, enough to know I would not mix with them socially. They think they have a natural right to run local government in vast swathes of the U.K. and hate anybody that gets in their way.MarqueeMark said:
As I say, you know nothing.nichomar said:MarqueeMark said:
You know nothing about the Conservtive Party.nichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best
Enough to know i wouldn’t knowingly have anything to do with any of them0 -
The Tories voteshare is still hoghest in the SE though even if it will produce the fewest net Tory gainsChameleon said:Just working off of this (old) poll:
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1192822695412584452
Any significant swing (3% Con -> LD) since then, and a lot of true blue seats will be in serious trouble.
I have Witney(!), Wokingham, Henley(!!), Wantage, Esher and Walton, and Wycombe all being LD-leaning marginals in that case. The Tories could be left with just three seats in Oxfordshire and Berkshire.
Nothing would quite underscore the level of change in UK politics than the Conservatives losing leafy Oxon & Berks while challenging in Warrington, Leigh Barrow, Workington, Oldham, Keighley, Bradford S etc.0 -
FACT
We had the referendum.
52% Leave 48% remain.
Its a democracy - Corbynistas and LDs need to recognise the result and move on (or stand down as LD are doing in most of the country! ) 1 -
Hmmm....
Pub landlord orders staff they can ONLY serve people this Remembrance Sunday if they're wearing a poppy
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7664893/Pub-landlord-bans-non-poppy-wearers-pub.html0 -
Con 374 Lab 165 would be an even bigger Tory lead over Labour than Foot's 1983 trouncing even if a smaller Tory majority overall if your totals are correctAndyJS said:FPT:
Seat totals are at the bottom of the document.HYUFD said:
Will have a lookAndyJS said:
Have you seen the spreadsheet I've put together which plugs this data into the Flavible regional seat forecasts?HYUFD said:Biggest swing from Labour to the Tories in the North East, the West Midlands and Wales
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1192838122838614022?s=20
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oKkOq3OQFkSd1v4Gd3AoDN-RkfCHa99d58L0cBCWRfs/edit#gid=00 -
I disagree. A Government governs by definition for the whole country and has to do what it can not just for those who voted for it but for those who didn't. You might argue its perpetuation in power might be about policies which appeal to its core of voters but I would argue there is a higher duty to provide good governance for everyone not just its supporters.HYUFD said:
No you don't, no government governs for the 100%, it governs primarily for those who voted for it to get re elected in terms of the policies it implements into law.stodge said:
Part of Government and good governance is to persuade enough people it deserves to be re-elected as a result of its record in office and the effect it has had on individuals and communities.
I would also contend in a democratic society any Government has to be subject to proper scrutiny and questioning within the bounds of that democracy both within Parliament and beyond since it is managing public money and setting law and public policy.0 -
Whereas you clearly just hate Tories fullstopnichomar said:
I know a lot about the Conservative party and it’s members, enough to know I would not mix with them socially. They think they have a natural right to run local government in vast swathes of the U.K. and hate anybody that gets in their way.MarqueeMark said:
As I say, you know nothing.nichomar said:MarqueeMark said:
You know nothing about the Conservtive Party.nichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best
Enough to know i wouldn’t knowingly have anything to do with any of them0 -
-
RobD said:0
-
Don’t be bloody ridiculous in what way are the LDs standing down in MOST of the country.RobD said:0 -
I would suggest there is a fundamental problem with that thesis. It stops just at the point at which the Catholic church was being supplanted in many Northern countries by Protestantism and it is the reformed protestant churches which are responsible for providing the underlying social and belief structures for Industrialisation and both democracy and Individualism. It is notable that Industrialisation starts much earlier and is much more successful in Protestant countries compared to those which remained Catholic.HYUFD said:
It also ignores the huge amount of work done by Islamic based societies in advancing both science and art at a time when the Catholic world was moribund and regressive.0 -
Clever pub landlord gets free publicity in national press.FrancisUrquhart said:Hmmm....
Pub landlord orders staff they can ONLY serve people this Remembrance Sunday if they're wearing a poppy
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7664893/Pub-landlord-bans-non-poppy-wearers-pub.html0 -
I see Labour NEC have picked Keir Morrison for Bassetlaw now. He's deleted all his tweets.
I'm sure that's entirely coincidental, and no-one has any screenshots.0 -
Name any UK Government 100% of voters approved of? Preventing anarchy and doing the basics of governance is not the same thingstodge said:
I disagree. A Government governs by definition for the whole country and has to do what it can not just for those who voted for it but for those who didn't. You might argue its perpetuation in power might be about policies which appeal to its core of voters but I would argue there is a higher duty to provide good governance for everyone not just its supporters.HYUFD said:
No you don't, no government governs for the 100%, it governs primarily for those who voted for it to get re elected in terms of the policies it implements into law.stodge said:
Part of Government and good governance is to persuade enough people it deserves to be re-elected as a result of its record in office and the effect it has had on individuals and communities.
I would also contend in a democratic society any Government has to be subject to proper scrutiny and questioning within the bounds of that democracy both within Parliament and beyond since it is managing public money and setting law and public policy.0 -
Indeed maintaining a close relationship from outside does respect the result. Staying inside does not.stodge said:Evening all
An interesting piece - I'm not quite sure why the negative jibes against Jo Swinson. The LD policy is Revoke if a majority is won or support a second vote if not.
I do think the opposition need to be clever here - as the article suggests, the WA is only the start of the journey out of the EU yet it has been billed as being the end of the journey.
Boris can wield No Deal as a weapon and clearly some of his candidates are happy to countenance that but we still don't know whether the next Parliament would, if confronted with No Deal on 31/1/20, vote for it.
Are we then to assume the WA has just been obfuscation and leaving without a WA on 31/1/20 remains the option? I doubt that but I do think leaving without an agreed FTA on 31/12/20 remains very much on the table.
So what could or would the Opposition do IF they were able to outvote the Conservatives in the next Parliament? I think the WA should be passed so we go into transition and then ensure the trade and political arrangements with the EU are as close to BINO as possible before we finally leave. That may take some time but no one would be in any rush would they?
We are continually told the 2016 Referendum result must be "respected" - fine but leaving and maintaining a close political and economic relationship with the EU achieves that as much as crashing out with no agreement at all.0 -
The internet never forgets.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:I see Labour NEC have picked Keir Morrison for Bassetlaw now. He's deleted all his tweets.
I'm sure that's entirely coincidental, and no-one has any screenshots.
1 -
Yes nothing wrong with that I also hate extreme labour politicians. But all extremes are wrong and both parties, lab and con, have driven us to the extremes and you have to live with it.HYUFD said:
Whereas you clearly just hate Tories fullstopnichomar said:
I know a lot about the Conservative party and it’s members, enough to know I would not mix with them socially. They think they have a natural right to run local government in vast swathes of the U.K. and hate anybody that gets in their way.MarqueeMark said:
As I say, you know nothing.nichomar said:MarqueeMark said:
You know nothing about the Conservtive Party.nichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best
Enough to know i wouldn’t knowingly have anything to do with any of them0 -
Who in their right mind would want to take on the Labour candidacy for Bassetlaw when faced with both the likelihood of losing and also a court case? Surely any candidate worth their salt can find a better constituency to stand for.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:I see Labour NEC have picked Keir Morrison for Bassetlaw now. He's deleted all his tweets.
I'm sure that's entirely coincidental, and no-one has any screenshots.0 -
Why? If we’ve managed to export so successfully to them without a trade deal what’s in it for us? You surely don’t think the US wants a trade deal in order for us to sell even more to them?HYUFD said:
The US is our biggest single export destination, realistically we want trade deals with them first after the EUGabs2 said:This is a good, thought-provoking article. Zeroing in on the question, if Britain should look West to the US or to Europe or China, the missing bloc is the CPTPP one (led by Australia, Canada and Japan). My preference would be the European bloc first, then CPTPP, then the US a distant third and China a very distant fourth. I suspect the British public would be the same. They might tolerate, just about, a bit more Thatcherism, but I don't think they would take the complete sell-out to corporate interest that exists in the USA. If the Tories tried, they would get decimated at the next election.
0 -
But until we see the report on Russian interference you cannot claim that the outcome was legitimate.Richard_Tyndall said:
Indeed maintaining a close relationship from outside does respect the result. Staying inside does not.stodge said:Evening all
An interesting piece - I'm not quite sure why the negative jibes against Jo Swinson. The LD policy is Revoke if a majority is won or support a second vote if not.
I do think the opposition need to be clever here - as the article suggests, the WA is only the start of the journey out of the EU yet it has been billed as being the end of the journey.
Boris can wield No Deal as a weapon and clearly some of his candidates are happy to countenance that but we still don't know whether the next Parliament would, if confronted with No Deal on 31/1/20, vote for it.
Are we then to assume the WA has just been obfuscation and leaving without a WA on 31/1/20 remains the option? I doubt that but I do think leaving without an agreed FTA on 31/12/20 remains very much on the table.
So what could or would the Opposition do IF they were able to outvote the Conservatives in the next Parliament? I think the WA should be passed so we go into transition and then ensure the trade and political arrangements with the EU are as close to BINO as possible before we finally leave. That may take some time but no one would be in any rush would they?
We are continually told the 2016 Referendum result must be "respected" - fine but leaving and maintaining a close political and economic relationship with the EU achieves that as much as crashing out with no agreement at all.0 -
He's not a good candidate, hence he had to benefit from a stitch up.Richard_Tyndall said:
Who in their right mind would want to take on the Labour candidacy for Bassetlaw when faced with both the likelihood of losing and also a court case? Surely any candidate worth their salt can find a better constituency to stand for.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:I see Labour NEC have picked Keir Morrison for Bassetlaw now. He's deleted all his tweets.
I'm sure that's entirely coincidental, and no-one has any screenshots.0 -
This is a great piece. People like Sir Ivan Rogers (pbuh) have been asking these questions for three years. So far none of it - and I mean none of it - has managed to get into the public debate. Instead we have had a series of meaningless soundbites and empty Panglossian bullshit. My real fear is that we are going to be forced into regulatory divergence from the EU and an unhealthy dependency on America by the power of economic logic, even though there is scant public appetite for it while even the Tory party - even in its current lunatic state - knows that it's bonkers.
But faced with being shut out of our main market, with our best companies decamping to Europe or having their business taken from them by European rivals, how else will we compete and attract capital? A regulatory race to the bottom will be presented as TINA - there is no alternative - by all the spivs who sold us Brexit. And the worst thing is, they will be half right. Because if we won't swallow our pride and beg to be let back into the EU, there will be no alternative but to seek our fortune at the nastier end of the global economy. Workington Man won't like it one bit, but the fact that he will have voted for it - once in 2016 and then most likely again this year - will be one of the sad ironies of the next few years.2 -
I think that's rather sad. There's so much more to people than their politics. I have close friends in parties other than the Lib Dems because they are nice people who I disagree with on some stuff. Equally there are some Lib Dems I'd cross the street to avoid.nichomar said:
I know a lot about the Conservative party and it’s members, enough to know I would not mix with them socially. They think they have a natural right to run local government in vast swathes of the U.K. and hate anybody that gets in their way.MarqueeMark said:
As I say, you know nothing.nichomar said:MarqueeMark said:
You know nothing about the Conservtive Party.nichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best
Enough to know i wouldn’t knowingly have anything to do with any of them
So what if a staunch Tory thinks people who share their broad approach should run things, and so what if they are a bit affronted if inconvenient voters don't fit in with that? It's a touch of Mainwaring-esque pomposity for the most part that one can laugh off pretty easily, and far from absent in other parties too.0 -
Hate. The life-force of the Left.nichomar said:
Yes nothing wrong with that I also hate extreme labour politicians. But all extremes are wrong and both parties, lab and con, have driven us to the extremes and you have to live with it.HYUFD said:
Whereas you clearly just hate Tories fullstopnichomar said:
I know a lot about the Conservative party and it’s members, enough to know I would not mix with them socially. They think they have a natural right to run local government in vast swathes of the U.K. and hate anybody that gets in their way.MarqueeMark said:
As I say, you know nothing.nichomar said:MarqueeMark said:
You know nothing about the Conservtive Party.nichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best
Enough to know i wouldn’t knowingly have anything to do with any of them
Jews. Tories. Anybody else we're missing?0 -
You are correct you cannot ignore Protestant or Islamic influence on civilisstion either, see the Max Weber thesis on the Protestant influence in the emergence of capitalism for instanceRichard_Tyndall said:
I would suggest there is a fundamental problem with that thesis. It stops just at the point at which the Catholic church was being supplanted in many Northern countries by Protestantism and it is the reformed protestant churches which are responsible for providing the underlying social and belief structures for Industrialisation and both democracy and Individualism. It is notable that Industrialisation starts much earlier and is much more successful in Protestant countries compared to those which remained Catholic.HYUFD said:
It also ignores the huge amount of work done by Islamic based societies in advancing both science and art at a time when the Catholic world was moribund and regressive.0 -
He does!Cyclefree said:
Why? If we’ve managed to export so successfully to them without a trade deal what’s in it for us? You surely don’t think the US wants a trade deal in order for us to sell even more to them?HYUFD said:
The US is our biggest single export destination, realistically we want trade deals with them first after the EUGabs2 said:This is a good, thought-provoking article. Zeroing in on the question, if Britain should look West to the US or to Europe or China, the missing bloc is the CPTPP one (led by Australia, Canada and Japan). My preference would be the European bloc first, then CPTPP, then the US a distant third and China a very distant fourth. I suspect the British public would be the same. They might tolerate, just about, a bit more Thatcherism, but I don't think they would take the complete sell-out to corporate interest that exists in the USA. If the Tories tried, they would get decimated at the next election.
0 -
Gammons.MarqueeMark said:
Hate. The life-force of the Left.nichomar said:
Yes nothing wrong with that I also hate extreme labour politicians. But all extremes are wrong and both parties, lab and con, have driven us to the extremes and you have to live with it.HYUFD said:
Whereas you clearly just hate Tories fullstopnichomar said:
I know a lot about the Conservative party and it’s members, enough to know I would not mix with them socially. They think they have a natural right to run local government in vast swathes of the U.K. and hate anybody that gets in their way.MarqueeMark said:
As I say, you know nothing.nichomar said:MarqueeMark said:
You know nothing about the Conservtive Party.nichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best
Enough to know i wouldn’t knowingly have anything to do with any of them
Jews. Tories. Anybody else we're missing?
0 -
You've misunderstood - the aim of Government should be to do what improves the lot of as many as possible within society. Of course, laws to prevent criminality won't be supported by criminals and your point is just obtuse.HYUFD said:
Name any UK Government 100% of voters approved of? Preventing anarchy and doing the basics of governance is not the same thing
Beyond the obvious, Government has a responsibility, I believe, to provide the opportunity for those who wish to better themselves by providing the regulatory, legislative and economic conditions under which people can live and work within the law arguably and that means for all of us not just who voted for said Government.
0 -
OGH Kenobi: "A young Remainer by the name of HYUFD, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Tories hunt down and destroy the Europhiles. Now the Remain Tories are all but extinct. HYUFD was seduced by the Daft Side of the Force."HYUFD said:2 -
Europe? Oh no wait, that's the RightMarqueeMark said:
Hate. The life-force of the Left.nichomar said:
Yes nothing wrong with that I also hate extreme labour politicians. But all extremes are wrong and both parties, lab and con, have driven us to the extremes and you have to live with it.HYUFD said:
Whereas you clearly just hate Tories fullstopnichomar said:
I know a lot about the Conservative party and it’s members, enough to know I would not mix with them socially. They think they have a natural right to run local government in vast swathes of the U.K. and hate anybody that gets in their way.MarqueeMark said:
As I say, you know nothing.nichomar said:MarqueeMark said:
You know nothing about the Conservtive Party.nichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best
Enough to know i wouldn’t knowingly have anything to do with any of them
Jews. Tories. Anybody else we're missing? 0 -
No women allowedHYUFD said:1 -
The US is one of the few major countries that we run a trade surplus with. Donald Trump thinks any country running a trade surplus with the US is cheating. The trade deal will be when he rectifies this.Cyclefree said:
Why? If we’ve managed to export so successfully to them without a trade deal what’s in it for us? You surely don’t think the US wants a trade deal in order for us to sell even more to them?HYUFD said:
The US is our biggest single export destination, realistically we want trade deals with them first after the EUGabs2 said:This is a good, thought-provoking article. Zeroing in on the question, if Britain should look West to the US or to Europe or China, the missing bloc is the CPTPP one (led by Australia, Canada and Japan). My preference would be the European bloc first, then CPTPP, then the US a distant third and China a very distant fourth. I suspect the British public would be the same. They might tolerate, just about, a bit more Thatcherism, but I don't think they would take the complete sell-out to corporate interest that exists in the USA. If the Tories tried, they would get decimated at the next election.
0 -
https://web.archive.org/web/20150824183104/https://twitter.com/MorrisonKeir
Deleted the tweet about voting for Watson for deputy, bit of an embarrassment for any budding Momentum member that one.0 -
On topic: the thing I think goes away in the next phase is the idea that 'nothing is agreed until everything is agreed'. Thus, no FTA is not quite the same as crash out No Deal, an agreement of sorts will be made in 2020, the question will simply be whether it covers all trade sectors enough to bear the name of FTA (likely a skeleton one heavily on EU terms), or is simply a largish bundle of mini-deals.
The less we agree, the more barriers there will be (including with NI) and with a recession due we will damn well know about it. 2021 is auspicious for EFTA promoters looking to Get Trade Done.
Finally, you've fallen into the trap of conflating anti-no-dealers with Remainers. If the debate you want is about the sort of trade relationship, and for many it is, there will be ample opportunity.0 -
The Conservatives are not going to fight in every seat - they won't be fighting East Ham seriously. Yes, there will be a candidate and an option to vote Conservative for those who wish to do so but no party fights every single seat seriously.RobD said:
Effectively, since they are no doubt going to fight only in a few dozen target seats?
Putting up 326 candidates means you have a theoretical chance of forming a majority Government - putting up 200 for example would not.
0 -
I'm guessing that they'll be fighting a lot more than the Lib Dems!stodge said:
The Conservatives are not going to fight in every seat - they won't be fighting East Ham seriously. Yes, there will be a candidate and an option to vote Conservative for those who wish to do so but no party fights every single seat seriously.RobD said:
Effectively, since they are no doubt going to fight only in a few dozen target seats?
Putting up 326 candidates means you have a theoretical chance of forming a majority Government - putting up 200 for example would not.0 -
And when has there ever been 100% agreement on what the best regulatory, legislative and economic conditions should be?stodge said:
You've misunderstood - the aim of Government should be to do what improves the lot of as many as possible within society. Of course, laws to prevent criminality won't be supported by criminals and your point is just obtuse.HYUFD said:
Name any UK Government 100% of voters approved of? Preventing anarchy and doing the basics of governance is not the same thing
Beyond the obvious, Government has a responsibility, I believe, to provide the opportunity for those who wish to better themselves by providing the regulatory, legislative and economic conditions under which people can live and work within the law arguably and that means for all of us not just who voted for said Government.0 -
The tories hate anybody that gets in their way of controlling local government in their area. They think it is their god given right to choose the councilors and the mayor.MarqueeMark said:
Hate. The life-force of the Left.nichomar said:
Yes nothing wrong with that I also hate extreme labour politicians. But all extremes are wrong and both parties, lab and con, have driven us to the extremes and you have to live with it.HYUFD said:
Whereas you clearly just hate Tories fullstopnichomar said:
I know a lot about the Conservative party and it’s members, enough to know I would not mix with them socially. They think they have a natural right to run local government in vast swathes of the U.K. and hate anybody that gets in their way.MarqueeMark said:
As I say, you know nothing.nichomar said:MarqueeMark said:
You know nothing about the Conservtive Party.nichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best
Enough to know i wouldn’t knowingly have anything to do with any of them
Jews. Tories. Anybody else we're missing?0 -
You were a Leaver seduced to the dark side by diehard RemainersSunil_Prasannan said:
OGH Kenobi: "A young Remainer by the name of HYUFD, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Tories hunt down and destroy the Europhiles. Now the Remain Tories are all but extinct. HYUFD was seduced by the Daft Side of the Force."HYUFD said:0 -
You really have no understanding of what departure from the EU means, do you. As of 31 December 2020 - as things currently stand - Britain will overnight turn into a third country. If there is no FTA agreed by then. All previous agreements with the EU - all of them - fall away, overnight. God knows what will replace them.HYUFD said:
Temporally until a FTA is agreed but that is not No Deal as the Withdrawal Agreement has been passed so WTO terms are not permanent as they would have been with No Deal and no Withdrawal Agreement agreed and passednichomar said:
Come on that’s complete crap, if the future relationship (note I don’t call it a FTA) isn’t extended if not agreed it is WTO rulesHYUFD said:
There is not, the Withdrawal Agreement is the Deal, a delay in completion of FTA talks and no extended transition period is not No Deal. That is only failing to agree and pass the Withdrawal Agreement leading to the EU refusing to start FTA talks toonichomar said:
You keep peddling this but if there is no agreement on the future relationship then without extension it is back to WTO rules, now if WTO rules is not no deal then fair enough I think you are being deceitful by claiming their can’t be a no deal brexit but the reality is that there is no agreement and no extension it is no deal.HYUFD said:If the Withdrawal Agreement is passed then there will not be No Deal as the Deal will have been delivered. The fact Boris may not agree to extend the transition period and keep the UK in the Single Market and Customs Union indefinitely is not No Deal it is continuing FTA talks with the EU as an Independent nation.
No Deal would have meant no Withdrawal Agreement agreed and passed and no FTA talks with the EU.
The effect is exactly the same if we had left the EU on 31 October 2019 without a Withdrawal Agreement - overnight we’d have become a third country vis-a-vis the EU.
All we have got as a result of Boris’s marvellous deal is a cliff edge at the end of 2020 and an earlier cliff edge in June to decide whether or mot we want to extend the transition.
0 -
So do Labour in traditional Labour areasnichomar said:
The tories hate anybody that gets in their way of controlling local government in their area. They think it is their god given right to choose the councilors and the mayor.MarqueeMark said:
Hate. The life-force of the Left.nichomar said:
Yes nothing wrong with that I also hate extreme labour politicians. But all extremes are wrong and both parties, lab and con, have driven us to the extremes and you have to live with it.HYUFD said:
Whereas you clearly just hate Tories fullstopnichomar said:
I know a lot about the Conservative party and it’s members, enough to know I would not mix with them socially. They think they have a natural right to run local government in vast swathes of the U.K. and hate anybody that gets in their way.MarqueeMark said:
As I say, you know nothing.nichomar said:MarqueeMark said:
You know nothing about the Conservtive Party.nichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best
Enough to know i wouldn’t knowingly have anything to do with any of them
Jews. Tories. Anybody else we're missing?0 -
Boys own private schoolbigjohnowls said:
No women allowedHYUFD said:0 -
The only good local and national government is CON.nichomar said:
The tories hate anybody that gets in their way of controlling local government in their area. They think it is their god given right to choose the councilors and the mayor.MarqueeMark said:
Hate. The life-force of the Left.nichomar said:
Yes nothing wrong with that I also hate extreme labour politicians. But all extremes are wrong and both parties, lab and con, have driven us to the extremes and you have to live with it.HYUFD said:
Whereas you clearly just hate Tories fullstopnichomar said:
I know a lot about the Conservative party and it’s members, enough to know I would not mix with them socially. They think they have a natural right to run local government in vast swathes of the U.K. and hate anybody that gets in their way.MarqueeMark said:
As I say, you know nothing.nichomar said:MarqueeMark said:
You know nothing about the Conservtive Party.nichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best
Enough to know i wouldn’t knowingly have anything to do with any of them
Jews. Tories. Anybody else we're missing?
With LAB its always pay more get less! And LD are LAB's little helpers (assuming they are standing of course)
0 -
Aren't you kind of undermining your own point here by tarring everyone on "the Left", as you choose to define it, as anti-Semites and Tory hating bigots?MarqueeMark said:
Hate. The life-force of the Left.nichomar said:
Yes nothing wrong with that I also hate extreme labour politicians. But all extremes are wrong and both parties, lab and con, have driven us to the extremes and you have to live with it.HYUFD said:
Whereas you clearly just hate Tories fullstopnichomar said:
I know a lot about the Conservative party and it’s members, enough to know I would not mix with them socially. They think they have a natural right to run local government in vast swathes of the U.K. and hate anybody that gets in their way.MarqueeMark said:
As I say, you know nothing.nichomar said:MarqueeMark said:
You know nothing about the Conservtive Party.nichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best
Enough to know i wouldn’t knowingly have anything to do with any of them
Jews. Tories. Anybody else we're missing?
It's hardly painting yourself, as presumably one of "the Right", as a freewheeling, see the good in everyone, and take all as they come sort of fellow.
My own view is that most people in the offline world are fairly pleasant whether they happen to agree with me on Brexit, tax levels, or pretty much anything else. Some aren't, but then a small number of people who agree with me on all major political matters are also absolute sh1ts!1 -
OK, that makes sense. It's Remembrance Sunday after all.FrancisUrquhart said:Hmmm....
Pub landlord orders staff they can ONLY serve people this Remembrance Sunday if they're wearing a poppy
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7664893/Pub-landlord-bans-non-poppy-wearers-pub.html
I don't see the point of people, particularly celebs on TV, wearing poppies three weeks before the event!0 -
What does that even mean?nichomar said:
The tories hate anybody that gets in their way of controlling local government in their area. They think it is their god given right to choose the councilors and the mayor.MarqueeMark said:
Hate. The life-force of the Left.nichomar said:
Yes nothing wrong with that I also hate extreme labour politicians. But all extremes are wrong and both parties, lab and con, have driven us to the extremes and you have to live with it.HYUFD said:
Whereas you clearly just hate Tories fullstopnichomar said:
I know a lot about the Conservative party and it’s members, enough to know I would not mix with them socially. They think they have a natural right to run local government in vast swathes of the U.K. and hate anybody that gets in their way.MarqueeMark said:
As I say, you know nothing.nichomar said:MarqueeMark said:
You know nothing about the Conservtive Party.nichomar said:Ave_it said:
I say Tactically Vote Conservative for a One Nation Britain and to stop the Corbynistas!NickPalmer said:That's a good article. I'm not sure there is time for an informed debate, or popular interest in one. People mostly feel the subject is intrinsically boring and they're either for or against, do not bother us with details. A friend campaigning in a Remain area tells me that interest in a second referendum has largely died away.
Nonetheless, I think that inteliigent tactical voting to prevent an overall Conservative majority is the only way to avoid the decision being taken purely on Boris's whim and the ERG's will.
There are no one nation tories left, those that there are reflect the membership which is bluekip at best
Enough to know i wouldn’t knowingly have anything to do with any of them
Jews. Tories. Anybody else we're missing?0 -
None of which means No Deal.Cyclefree said:
You really have no understanding of what departure from the EU means, do you. As of 31 December 2020 - as things currently stand - Britain will overnight turn into a third country. If there is no FTA agreed by then. All previous agreements with the EU - all of them - fall away, overnight. God knows what will replace them.HYUFD said:
Temporally until a FTA is agreed but that is not No Deal as the Withdrawal Agreement has been passed so WTO terms are not permanent as they would have been with No Deal and no Withdrawal Agreement agreed and passednichomar said:
Come on that’s complete crap, if the future relationship (note I don’t call it a FTA) isn’t extended if not agreed it is WTO rulesHYUFD said:
There is not, the Withdrawal Agreement is the Deal, a delay in completion of FTA talks and no extended transition period is not No Deal. That is only failing to agree and pass the Withdrawal Agreement leading to the EU refusing to start FTA talks toonichomar said:
You keep peddling this but if there is no agreement on the future relationship then without extension it is back to WTO rules, now if WTO rules is not no deal then fair enough I think you are being deceitful by claiming their can’t be a no deal brexit but the reality is that there is no agreement and no extension it is no deal.HYUFD said:If the Withdrawal Agreement is passed then there will not be No Deal as the Deal will have been delivered. The fact Boris may not agree to extend the transition period and keep the UK in the Single Market and Customs Union indefinitely is not No Deal it is continuing FTA talks with the EU as an Independent nation.
No Deal would have meant no Withdrawal Agreement agreed and passed and no FTA talks with the EU.
The effect is exactly the same if we had left the EU on 31 October 2019 without a Withdrawal Agreement - overnight we’d have become a third country vis-a-vis the EU.
All we have got as a result of Boris’s marvellous deal is a cliff edge at the end of 2020 and an earlier cliff edge in June to decide whether or mot we want to extend the transition.
The Deal is the Withdrawal Agreement which enables FTA talks which will ultimately produce a FTA, even Canada got one with the EU after 7 years and we already have closer links with the EU than them.
No Deal means no Withdrawal Agreement and no FTA talks with the EU until a Deal is agreed and pased0 -
Ah, its easy. Party behind you and all that.Richard_Tyndall said:
Who in their right mind would want to take on the Labour candidacy for Bassetlaw when faced with both the likelihood of losing and also a court case? Surely any candidate worth their salt can find a better constituency to stand for.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:I see Labour NEC have picked Keir Morrison for Bassetlaw now. He's deleted all his tweets.
I'm sure that's entirely coincidental, and no-one has any screenshots.
Of course there would need to be some changes to the message.
Actual insanity is tricky, at best, to defend. As a new candidate that's easy to sweep aside, but you'd want to clear out the old ideas.
I guess you'd want to think for yourself.
Welcome to the Conservative party.
0 -
I meet a lot of Conservative, Labour, Lib Dem and Independent councillors in my work. I'll be honest - it's very hard to tell them apart sometimes and there are both very good and very bad Councillors in all parties.nichomar said:
I know a lot about the Conservative party and it’s members, enough to know I would not mix with them socially. They think they have a natural right to run local government in vast swathes of the U.K. and hate anybody that gets in their way.
I don't think either a majority Conservative or a majority Labour Government would be good for the country and I think a majority Liberal Democrat Government would. That's my view which I'm allowed to have and I'm happy to come on here and argue the point.
That doesn't mean I hate Conservative or Labour activists - I think they are wrong and will happily argue the case with them but on a personal level I've met Conservative and Labour members I like and Liberal Democrats I don't like.
As to whether it should be fair game to criticise someone for how they look or what they said on Facebook ten years ago, I do wonder if that is going too far.0
