How many southern Irish people successfully entered British politics in the years after Irish independence? Zero? 3? How many southern Irish people are now serious politicians or serious political commentators in the UK, rather than comedians or chat show hosts? Zero? 2?
The position of Eire was rather different to that of Scotland.
Not many Irish people wanted to become 'serious politicians or commentators' in the UK, I suspect... After all they had just escaped John Bull's grasp and had a nation to build.
Any Scottish separation will be less rancorous and, certainly in comparison to the Irish example, is little more than symbolic...
How many shadow cabinet ministers would no longer be rUk MPs ?
Murphy ? Alexander ?
Amusing as Douglas Alexander will be the Labour GE coordinator for a GE where his seat had an expected life of 12 months.
Twitter Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak 33s Documents published by Home Affairs suggest Police Fed internal relationships about as friendly as a nest of vipers..
Ross Hawkins @rosschawkins 2m MacLeod on camera: think this is a witch hunt by the media angry about Leveson & equal marriage & taking it out on Maria
Enjoyed Sean T's article on indyref in the Telelgraph. Spot on about Devo Max. Both Labour and the Tories have gambled on denying people the chance of Devo Max (albeit for different reasons) and the lack of a third option on the paper will push many towards Yes.
Err... we Yessers told you all that at the time, but we were told that David Cameron was a genius and that denying Scots the Devo Max option was a masterstroke and a knockout blow from which FM Salmond would never recover.
How many more Cameron "masterstrokes" can the No campaign take before it implodes?
They also shrieked 'triumphantly' over Osbrowne's incompetent currency posturing for about two weeks. That went well, didn't it?
LOL
Remember the PB Golden Rule. The PB tories are always wrong. The PB tories never learn.
The smarter PB Tories (there are a few) must cringe every time the dunderheids log on for their shift.
I agree (I've come up with similar plans myself). But all are complex, and most would lead to various accusations. If we increase the salary enough, then such unfairnesses will become less important. ... Any 'fair' system with such a complex arrangement of separated workplaces and working hours would soon become filled with loopholes and be massively complex to run. Which seems to be exactly what happened on the run-up to the expenses scandal.
This sounds a bit like the saying that you can have something possess two attributes out of cheap, good and quick, but not all three at once.
We agree that we'd like a system that was fair, simple and honest.
It would be fair to say that my proposal emphasises being fair and honest at the expense of some complexity - Parliament would have to manage a large property portfolio and allocate it to MPs, etc.
You favour simplicity and honesty over fairness between MPs located within or without commuting distance of Westminster.
Unless someone can achieve the impossible and devise a system that combines all three of the desirable attributes, our disagreement is at a fundamental and hard to resolve level.
I can't say that you are necessarily wrong to favour a simple system over a fair system. I just disagree.
What I would say about the old system of expenses is that it spectacularly failed to be either simple or honest, and so it should at least be possible to devise a system that is better than that, if not perfect.
Sorry about my delay in replying. The 'fair-simple-honest was a great way of putting it.
I think the reason why I favour the system having elements of unfairness in it is that fairness is mostly subjective and hard to measure. As long as travel expenses are paid for, I think it might be the least worst solution.
There would also be unfairness in your proposed system: not all the properties in the portfolio would be equal, and some would get more desirable properties. Likewise, if the MPs don't pay rent then the media would all be going on about grace-and-favour housing. If they do pay rent, then a London MP who already has a property in the area (indeed, any MP with a property in London) would not need to use the official property, and would pocket what they would pay in rent.
It's a mess.
But as I said originally, increasing MP salaries won't happen because the media won't allow it.
How many southern Irish people successfully entered British politics in the years after Irish independence? Zero? 3? How many southern Irish people are now serious politicians or serious political commentators in the UK, rather than comedians or chat show hosts? Zero? 2?
The position of Eire was rather different to that of Scotland.
Not many Irish people wanted to become 'serious politicians or commentators' in the UK, I suspect... After all they had just escaped John Bull's grasp and had a nation to build.
Any Scottish separation will be less rancorous and, certainly in comparison to the Irish example, is little more than symbolic...
How many shadow cabinet ministers would no longer be rUk MPs ?
Murphy ? Alexander ?
Amusing as Douglas Alexander will be the Labour GE coordinator for a GE where his seat had an expected life of 12 months.
Alexander and Browne should be given the nod for a safe Tory seat, should they want it.
Except that New Labour without Scotland, 1997-2010, would not have had Brown, Darling, Reid, Dewar, Cook... etc etc etc - many of their leading politicians (and some of these guys were very popular, in their time, hard as it is to believe).
Sean, get off this hobby horse.
No-one knows what these persons would have done in an alternative rUK universe, except that it would be in some way different.
I've already exploded your canard that Scots will/should be barred from a future rUK Westminster...
You don't like it cause I am right.
Furthermore,
1. No Scots with Scottish constituencies will be allowed to sit in Westminster (obviously)
2. As the prolonged and agonising break-up after 2016 stretches on for a decade (which it will, with all its untold consequences), Scots will be rather unpopular: it will be almost impossible for men and women with Scots nationality and accents to get a political hearing in England. They will just get heckled back over Hadrian's Wall.
How many southern Irish people successfully entered British politics in the years after Irish independence? Zero? 3? How many southern Irish people are now serious politicians or serious political commentators in the UK, rather than comedians or chat show hosts? Zero? 2?
Yeah, that'll get the under-40s fired up. Great reference to a comedy that stopped being made in 1977. They should do a 'Terry and June or 'The Good Life' spoof next.
It would be ridiculously churlish for English people to hold it against Scots that live south of the border, who are generally pro-union, for a decision they weren't consulted on. We should treat them as any other immigrants: expect them to integrate and identify with their present country, but be otherwise welcoming and judge them as individuals.
Yeah, that'll get the under-40s fired up. Great reference to a comedy that stopped being made in 1977. They should do a 'Terry and June or 'The Good Life' spoof next.
Gettin' down wi' da kids, innit.
On current polling, UKIP should win c.20% of the vote among voters aged 18-40 on May 22nd.
Both The Daily Telegraph and The Times continue to press for La Miller's resignation/sacking and quite right too. God, Cameron's been weak and totally wrong over this issue.
Twitter Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak 33s Documents published by Home Affairs suggest Police Fed internal relationships about as friendly as a nest of vipers..
Ross Hawkins @rosschawkins 2m MacLeod on camera: think this is a witch hunt by the media angry about Leveson & equal marriage & taking it out on Maria
I simply cannot understand how Cameron and Miller can't appreciate what a liability she is to the government right now.
I think the most important points to take away are that the Conservative majority in 2010 would have been thin, and that prior to 2010 (97, 01, 05) Scottish independence would not have given them a majority.
Except that New Labour without Scotland, 1997-2010, would not have had Brown, Darling, Reid, Dewar, Cook... etc etc etc - many of their leading politicians (and some of these guys were very popular, in their time, hard as it is to believe). Plus all the cash, energy and activists from SLAB, too.
You have to subtract all that Scottish added value from Labour to get the true position. Would they still have won so convincingly? No. They might have lost.
And in future young, politically motivated Scots - who tend to be leftwing - will probably stay in Scotland. So no future Tony Blairs, either.
I was agreeing until the last bit. I think the politically ambitious will still want to head south as quickly as they can even if we have independence.
The sad truth is that an independent Scotland will be a country of little consequence to anyone but the Scots themselves. The ambitious will still want the bigger stage. The trick is to make sure that stage is available for all of our children to play on.
Why on earth, after Scotland has just sued for divorce (with much vitriol and hatred being cast the way of England) should England then say Oh please do let your kids come and use our swimming pool?
After any YES vote there will, I reckon, be a very mild surge of anti-Scottish feeling. It won't be nasty or violent or permanent, but it will be there, and maybe for a decade or two it will be a little harder for Scots to make it in London, in any arena.
More significantly, it will be almost impossible for Scots (with recognisable Scots accents) to make it in professions like serious journalism or high politics in London, as the English will (rightly) say, Hold on, you've got your own country now, you told us to go away, why are you still trying to run my country, or tell me how to run mine?
Smart Scots will see these hurdles, and stay home, and be big fish in the little pond.
I won't have to travel so far to watch the Open. St Andrews, Troon, Loch Lomand and others can share their own national golf championship.
Yeah, that'll get the under-40s fired up. Great reference to a comedy that stopped being made in 1977. They should do a 'Terry and June or 'The Good Life' spoof next.
Gettin' down wi' da kids, innit.
I'm under 40 and thought it was amusing. Everyone knows Dad's Army. It was certainly less painful than hearing Gordon Brown listening to the Arctic Monkeys or David Cameron being a Thom Yorke fan.
Yeah, that'll get the under-40s fired up. Great reference to a comedy that stopped being made in 1977. They should do a 'Terry and June or 'The Good Life' spoof next.
Gettin' down wi' da kids, innit.
On current polling, UKIP should win c.20% of the vote among voters aged 18-40 on May 22nd. Which only goes to show that "some mothers do 'ave 'em" (try that one too, Betty).
Yeah, that'll get the under-40s fired up. Great reference to a comedy that stopped being made in 1977. They should do a 'Terry and June or 'The Good Life' spoof next.
Gettin' down wi' da kids, innit.
On current polling, UKIP should win c.20% of the vote among voters aged 18-40 on May 22nd.
Which only goes to show that "some mothers do 'ave 'em" (try that one too, Betty).
Yeah, that or the fact that young people are feeling it hardest from competing with an influx of cheap labour from the continent.
Yeah, that'll get the under-40s fired up. Great reference to a comedy that stopped being made in 1977. They should do a 'Terry and June or 'The Good Life' spoof next.
Gettin' down wi' da kids, innit.
On current polling, UKIP should win c.20% of the vote among voters aged 18-40 on May 22nd.
Which only goes to show that "some mothers do 'ave 'em" (try that one too, Betty).
Yeah, that or the fact that young people are feeling it hardest from competing with an influx of cheap labour from the continent.
For general elections, UKIP polls c.7% among 18-40 year olds, which is more than twice what it polled among the voters as a whole in 2010.
Twitter Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak 33s Documents published by Home Affairs suggest Police Fed internal relationships about as friendly as a nest of vipers..
Ross Hawkins @rosschawkins 2m MacLeod on camera: think this is a witch hunt by the media angry about Leveson & equal marriage & taking it out on Maria
I simply cannot understand how Cameron and Miller can't appreciate what a liability she is to the government right now.
The media angry about gay marriage? It's possibly the most luvvie industry there is, with a ridiculously high number of gay people. I'm struggling to think of a profession that's less supportive of gay marriage than the media. The government is clutching at straws here.
Seriously, how idiotic do you have to be to not understand why not co-operating with an investigation into how taxpayer's money is spent is A BAD THING.
Both The Daily Telegraph and The Times continue to press for La Miller's resignation/sacking and quite right too. God, Cameron's been weak and totally wrong over this issue.
He may well have been wrong, but he's certainly not been weak. The weak thing to do would have been to give in, as Blair did over the Mandelson/Hinduja non-scandal, as soon as the press started rampaging.
I simply cannot understand how Cameron and Miller can't appreciate what a liability she is to the government right now.
@tnewtondunn: No10 and @Maria_MillerMP disingenuously turning Millergate into Who Runs Britain, press or MPs. Sad to say it's working with backbenchers.
Yeah, that'll get the under-40s fired up. Great reference to a comedy that stopped being made in 1977. They should do a 'Terry and June or 'The Good Life' spoof next.
Gettin' down wi' da kids, innit.
On current polling, UKIP should win c.20% of the vote among voters aged 18-40 on May 22nd.
Which only goes to show that "some mothers do 'ave 'em" (try that one too, Betty).
Yeah, that or the fact that young people are feeling it hardest from competing with an influx of cheap labour from the continent. A mixture of that and UKIP being the only protest party in most areas, I think.
Anyone worked out yet what the status of the Scots Life/Hereditary Peers in Westminster is going to be in rUK?
It'll be interesting if Scots legislators are removed from one house, but not the other...
Would probably depend which nationality they are going to choose post split - if they decide to remain British then the should keep their seat.
Eh? The Scots will still be British.
If you are thinking about EWNiish or rUKish, then some 'Scottish' peers already qualify - Messrs Foulkes and (if he is ennobled as a consolation prize) Darling come to mind.
You know the Tories have gone over a cliff when they start using the old left-wing tactics of implying "well aren't you a bit racist", nod nod, wink wink.
Anyone worked out yet what the status of the Scots Life/Hereditary Peers in Westminster is going to be in rUK?
It'll be interesting if Scots legislators are removed from one house, but not the other...
Would probably depend which nationality they are going to choose post split - if they decide to remain British then the should keep their seat.
I hadn't heard people were going to have to choose, or what the details might be. Irish citizens can simultaneously be British citizens, for example...
An SNP attempt to downplay Alex Salmond's five-star hotel bills has backfired spectacularly after it emerged he stayed at luxury accommodation singled out by Nicola Sturgeon for direct criticism.
The Deputy First Minister recently defended Mr Salmond's controversial oversees expense claims by saying he would not get caught staying at New York's upmarket Benjamin Hotel like Jack McConnell, his Labour predecessor.
But The Telegraph can disclose Mr Salmond has in fact stayed at The Benjamin, spending three nights in a king suite there during a taxpayer-funded trip to the United States in October 2007.
I think the most important points to take away are that the Conservative majority in 2010 would have been thin, and that prior to 2010 (97, 01, 05) Scottish independence would not have given them a majority.
Except that New Labour without Scotland, 1997-2010, would not have had Brown, Darling, Reid, Dewar, Cook... etc etc etc - many of their leading politicians (and some of these guys were very popular, in their time, hard as it is to believe). Plus all the cash, energy and activists from SLAB, too.
You have to subtract all that Scottish added value from Labour to get the true position. Would they still have won so convincingly? No. They might have lost.
And in future young, politically motivated Scots - who tend to be leftwing - will probably stay in Scotland. So no future Tony Blairs, either.
I was agreeing until the last bit. I think the politically ambitious will still want to head south as quickly as they can even if we have independence.
The sad truth is that an independent Scotland will be a country of little consequence to anyone but the Scots themselves. The ambitious will still want the bigger stage. The trick is to make sure that stage is available for all of our children to play on.
Why on earth, after Scotland has just sued for divorce (with much vitriol and hatred being cast the way of England) should England then say Oh please do let your kids come and use our swimming pool?
After any YES vote there will, I reckon, be a very mild surge of anti-Scottish feeling. It won't be nasty or violent or permanent, but it will be there, and maybe for a decade or two it will be a little harder for Scots to make it in London, in any arena.
More significantly, it will be almost impossible for Scots (with recognisable Scots accents) to make it in professions like serious journalism or high politics in London, as the English will (rightly) say, Hold on, you've got your own country now, you told us to go away, why are you still trying to run my country, or tell me how to run mine?
Smart Scots will see these hurdles, and stay home, and be big fish in the little pond.
Michael Gove? Jim Naughtie? Andrew Marr? Andrew Neil? Can you seriously see any of these people wanting to play in a toy sandpit?
I accept that the next generation might have it harder but England is a very welcoming place: just look at their cricket team.
David, you are easily pleased if you think any of those fannies are anything special, shreddie is about the best of a bad bunch and his track record is crap.
An SNP attempt to downplay Alex Salmond's five-star hotel bills has backfired spectacularly after it emerged he stayed at luxury accommodation singled out by Nicola Sturgeon for direct criticism.
The Deputy First Minister recently defended Mr Salmond's controversial oversees expense claims by saying he would not get caught staying at New York's upmarket Benjamin Hotel like Jack McConnell, his Labour predecessor.
But The Telegraph can disclose Mr Salmond has in fact stayed at The Benjamin, spending three nights in a king suite there during a taxpayer-funded trip to the United States in October 2007.
They take an off the cuff remark and worry at it for years on end, showing the sort of obsession with it that one normally sees only in psychiatric cases - they have their tiny little bit of justification that they can fixate on and they don't care what the whole world is like.
I don't mind politicians being held to account - indeed quite the reverse - but but it would be so nice if Labour and Tories got the same treatment in Scotland, especially with such massive clangers as Ms Lamont saying that "we're not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions". The DT ought to be worrying that the future of the union is in her hands, after all!
An SNP attempt to downplay Alex Salmond's five-star hotel bills has backfired spectacularly after it emerged he stayed at luxury accommodation singled out by Nicola Sturgeon for direct criticism.
The Deputy First Minister recently defended Mr Salmond's controversial oversees expense claims by saying he would not get caught staying at New York's upmarket Benjamin Hotel like Jack McConnell, his Labour predecessor.
But The Telegraph can disclose Mr Salmond has in fact stayed at The Benjamin, spending three nights in a king suite there during a taxpayer-funded trip to the United States in October 2007.
Ha Ha Ha , no wonder you losers are circling the drain , nothing more important like child poverty , unemployment , bedroom tax etc to focus on. What a bunch of diddies.
You know the Tories have gone over a cliff when they start using the old left-wing tactics of implying "well aren't you a bit racist", nod nod, wink wink.
I'm not a Tory (tm). And I'm not accusing anyone of being racist.
Comments
Murphy ? Alexander ?
Amusing as Douglas Alexander will be the Labour GE coordinator for a GE where his seat had an expected life of 12 months.
Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak 33s
Documents published by Home Affairs suggest Police Fed internal relationships about as friendly as a nest of vipers..
Ross Hawkins @rosschawkins 2m
MacLeod on camera: think this is a witch hunt by the media angry about Leveson & equal marriage & taking it out on Maria
I think the reason why I favour the system having elements of unfairness in it is that fairness is mostly subjective and hard to measure. As long as travel expenses are paid for, I think it might be the least worst solution.
There would also be unfairness in your proposed system: not all the properties in the portfolio would be equal, and some would get more desirable properties. Likewise, if the MPs don't pay rent then the media would all be going on about grace-and-favour housing. If they do pay rent, then a London MP who already has a property in the area (indeed, any MP with a property in London) would not need to use the official property, and would pocket what they would pay in rent.
It's a mess.
But as I said originally, increasing MP salaries won't happen because the media won't allow it.
It'll be interesting if Scots legislators are removed from one house, but not the other...
Splendid advert and leaflet from UKIP:
Gettin' down wi' da kids, innit.
Gettin' down wi' da kids, innit.
On current polling, UKIP should win c.20% of the vote among voters aged 18-40 on May 22nd.
Gettin' down wi' da kids, innit.
I'm under 40 and thought it was amusing. Everyone knows Dad's Army. It was certainly less painful than hearing Gordon Brown listening to the Arctic Monkeys or David Cameron being a Thom Yorke fan.
Which only goes to show that "some mothers do 'ave 'em" (try that one too, Betty).
Yeah, that or the fact that young people are feeling it hardest from competing with an influx of cheap labour from the continent.
For general elections, UKIP polls c.7% among 18-40 year olds, which is more than twice what it polled among the voters as a whole in 2010.
Seriously, how idiotic do you have to be to not understand why not co-operating with an investigation into how taxpayer's money is spent is A BAD THING.
Is being a 'Brit' a bit like being a 'Londoner' ?
;-)
A mixture of that and UKIP being the only protest party in most areas, I think.
Eh? The Scots will still be British.
If you are thinking about EWNiish or rUKish, then some 'Scottish' peers already qualify - Messrs Foulkes and (if he is ennobled as a consolation prize) Darling come to mind.
;-)
You know the Tories have gone over a cliff when they start using the old left-wing tactics of implying "well aren't you a bit racist", nod nod, wink wink.
Typical unionist stuff.
They take an off the cuff remark and worry at it for years on end, showing the sort of obsession with it that one normally sees only in psychiatric cases - they have their tiny little bit of justification that they can fixate on and they don't care what the whole world is like.
I don't mind politicians being held to account - indeed quite the reverse - but but it would be so nice if Labour and Tories got the same treatment in Scotland, especially with such massive clangers as Ms Lamont saying that "we're not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions". The DT ought to be worrying that the future of the union is in her hands, after all!
Ha Ha Ha , no wonder you losers are circling the drain , nothing more important like child poverty , unemployment , bedroom tax etc to focus on. What a bunch of diddies.
I'm not a Tory (tm).
And I'm not accusing anyone of being racist.
Aside from that, good post.
'Cos rightwingers don't like being told what to do?