Undefined discussion subject.
Comments
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First time for everything I guess. I can’t understand Boris much of the time, he waffles and mumbles. He’s a desperately poor speaker.GIN1138 said:
You know what he's going to say... And he'll say it perfectly.Benpointer said:
Will that be his "I died in a ditch" speech?GIN1138 said:
Wait until he's addressed the nation on the day the letter gets sent.Benpointer said:
"...the ComRes survey for the Telegraph found that only just over half of voters (56 per cent) would blame Mr Johnson if Brexit does not happen on October 31."GIN1138 said:
8 in 10 voters will blame Parliament not Boris apparently (as myself and @Philip_Thompson have been saying)Benpointer said:FPT:
The government is going to be a fecking laughing stock in November when we've extended and these start hitting the streets.TGOHF2 said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/
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The Tories are actually up 6 points on the previous Telegraph/ComRes poll on 24th September, but for some reason they're comparing it to an earlier one.0
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I actually believe the real reason no restaurant has won one for ages is political with a small p. I seemed to remember there was some sort of dust up with the awarding body and as a result they just never sent people there to adjudicate establishments from then on for many many years.Philip_Thompson said:
Quaint to see someone from Manchester winning something.FrancisUrquhart said:Who says its grim up north...
Manchester restaurant wins city’s first Michelin star in 40 years
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2019/oct/07/manchester-restaurant-wins-citys-first-michelin-star-in-40-years0 -
That's what was said about America too and European countries insisting America will pay for their defence still because they benefit from it.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.
Sure we benefit from a free Europe, but we don't need to pay for it. And if we don't, they will have no choice but to pick up the slack. It is realpolitik.
Does Europe need our assistance?
If yes, be our allies, agree a respectful deal.
If no, so long!0 -
So, the Cummings/Johnson strategy has failed completely. The next plan seems to resolve around making the UK poorer, less free, more dependent on the goodwill of others and less secure. You do have to wonder at what point Tory MPs begin to ask themselves what these two are leading their party and their country towards.0
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Polls are meaningless in any case, so it doesn’t really matter. They are complete bumsteers outside of campaigns, it is wise to ignore them.Andy_JS said:The Tories are actually up 6 points on the previous Telegraph/ComRes poll on 24th September, but for some reason they're comparing it to an earlier one.
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That works both waysGallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.0 -
Kind of them to light Trudeau to give a before / after effect.HYUFD said:Programme for the Final Canadian leaders debate before the 21st October general election just started
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VRliFlrvfA0 -
Yes. He often went to parties as Mr Singh from Saskatoon.Luckyguy1983 said:
Is that Trudeau in the middle?HYUFD said:Programme for the Final Canadian leaders debate before the 21st October general election just started
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VRliFlrvfA0 -
Bet you wouldn't be saying that if Labour had a 20% lead!Anabobazina said:
Polls are meaningless in any case, so it doesn’t really matter. They are complete bumsteers outside of campaigns, it is wise to ignore them.Andy_JS said:The Tories are actually up 6 points on the previous Telegraph/ComRes poll on 24th September, but for some reason they're comparing it to an earlier one.
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The Tories have expanded their poll lead with Comres tonight into majority territory, the strategy is working fine to win a Tory majority and then deliver Brexit, regain sovereignty and replace free movement with a points systemSouthamObserver said:So, the Cummings/Johnson strategy has failed completely. The next plan seems to resolve around making the UK poorer, less free, more dependent on the goodwill of others and less secure. You do have to wonder at what point Tory MPs begin to ask themselves what these two are leading their party and their country towards.
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Yes. It does. Good job the EU is not threatening to withdraw defence cooperation then isn’t it.Floater said:
That works both waysGallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.0 -
The EU will be pissing itself at this “threat”. And they are not seeking to annex part of our country. They want a customs arrangement over part of one of their member states we unlawfully annexed. Why are you so keen to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies?Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.0 -
I say the same regardless. Look up my posts if you like (it’s been a while since Labour were ‘ahead’ but my posts are there). I’d rather the Liberals won anyway.GIN1138 said:
Bet you wouldn't be saying that if Labour had a 20% lead!Anabobazina said:
Polls are meaningless in any case, so it doesn’t really matter. They are complete bumsteers outside of campaigns, it is wise to ignore them.Andy_JS said:The Tories are actually up 6 points on the previous Telegraph/ComRes poll on 24th September, but for some reason they're comparing it to an earlier one.
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Does the government have the right to withdraw from NATO without a vote in Parliament?0
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I though poor wee David Britain was irrelevant to mighty Goliath Europe? How can we be making them less safe when they so completely don't need us and have been spending the last 3 years making that point so very vocally?SouthamObserver said:
Exactly. Making UK citizens poorer and less free is one thing. Making them less safe is something else completely.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.0 -
Realpolitik would be recognising where the power balance lies between 1 country vs 27 countries and whether it is more productive to co-operate or wave around empty threats. The answer is blindingly obvious.Philip_Thompson said:
That's what was said about America too and European countries insisting America will pay for their defence still because they benefit from it.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.
Sure we benefit from a free Europe, but we don't need to pay for it. And if we don't, they will have no choice but to pick up the slack. It is realpolitik.
Does Europe need our assistance?
If yes, be our allies, agree a respectful deal.
If no, so long!0 -
The EU are not our closest allies at all, our closest allies are Australia, New Zealand, Canada and then the USA.DougSeal said:
The EU will be pissing itself at this “threat”. And they are not seeking to annex part of our country. They want a customs arrangement over part of one of their member states we unlawfully annexed. Why are you so keen to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies?Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
A Verhofstadt aide was filmed on camera saying the backstop was designed to make the UK an 'EU colony'0 -
Is there a political with a capital P?FrancisUrquhart said:
I actually believe the real reason no restaurant has won one for ages is political with a small p. I seemed to remember there was some sort of dust up with the awarding body and as a result they just never sent people there to adjudicate establishments from then on for many many years.Philip_Thompson said:
Quaint to see someone from Manchester winning something.FrancisUrquhart said:Who says its grim up north...
Manchester restaurant wins city’s first Michelin star in 40 years
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2019/oct/07/manchester-restaurant-wins-citys-first-michelin-star-in-40-years
To keep back the smart alecs, sentences where the analog is you would write "Conservative with a small c" do not count.0 -
I'm calling bullsh*t on that!HYUFD said:
The EU are not our closest allies at all, our closest allies are Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the USADougSeal said:
The EU will be pissing itself at this “threat”. And they are not seeking to annex part of our country. They want a customs arrangement over part of one of their member states we unlawfully annexed. Why are you so keen to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies?Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.0 -
We never unlawfully annexed any of their member states. NI always has been and in perpetuity shall remain unless the voters choose otherwise a part of our country. That is international law and you banging on about "unlawful annexation" are an absolute nutjob.DougSeal said:
The EU will be pissing itself at this “threat”. And they are not seeking to annex part of our country. They want a customs arrangement over part of one of their member states we unlawfully annexed. Why are you so keen to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies?Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Countries have control over their own customs. The EU trying to get "a customs arrangement" over a part of OUR country is a non-starter.
I'm not trying to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies. Not sure why you'd bring our fellow Five Eyes nations into this? They're not a part of Brexit.0 -
Its a fact. Its called Five Eyes and they are our closest allies by far.murali_s said:
I'm calling bullsh*t on that!HYUFD said:
The EU are not our closest allies at all, our closest allies are Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the USADougSeal said:
The EU will be pissing itself at this “threat”. And they are not seeking to annex part of our country. They want a customs arrangement over part of one of their member states we unlawfully annexed. Why are you so keen to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies?Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.1 -
You are 40 years out of date.HYUFD said:
The EU are not our closest allies at all, our closest allies are Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the USA.DougSeal said:
The EU will be pissing itself at this “threat”. And they are not seeking to annex part of our country. They want a customs arrangement over part of one of their member states we unlawfully annexed. Why are you so keen to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies?Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
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Yes and when it comes to agility the 1 country can easily be more powerful than the 27.noneoftheabove said:
Realpolitik would be recognising where the power balance lies between 1 country vs 27 countries and whether it is more productive to co-operate or wave around empty threats. The answer is blindingly obvious.Philip_Thompson said:
That's what was said about America too and European countries insisting America will pay for their defence still because they benefit from it.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.
Sure we benefit from a free Europe, but we don't need to pay for it. And if we don't, they will have no choice but to pick up the slack. It is realpolitik.
Does Europe need our assistance?
If yes, be our allies, agree a respectful deal.
If no, so long!
I'm all up for co-operation so long as it is mutual.0 -
Correct.Philip_Thompson said:
Its a fact. Its called Five Eyes and they are our closest allies by far.
As anybody with even a passing acquaintance with classified information would know.0 -
I think my joke was missed, it was starting with a small f.FrancisUrquhart said:
I actually believe the real reason no restaurant has won one for ages is political with a small p. I seemed to remember there was some sort of dust up with the awarding body and as a result they just never sent people there to adjudicate establishments from then on for many many years.Philip_Thompson said:
Quaint to see someone from Manchester winning something.FrancisUrquhart said:Who says its grim up north...
Manchester restaurant wins city’s first Michelin star in 40 years
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2019/oct/07/manchester-restaurant-wins-citys-first-michelin-star-in-40-years0 -
Some of the EU27 will surely feel less safe without the UK in the club.0
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Tables here for the ComRes poll. Credit to them, they haven't like some hung around for days before putting them up.
https://www.comresglobal.com/polls/the-telegraph-voting-intention-october-2019/0 -
Except when they hide behind Diplomatic Immunity?Philip_Thompson said:
Its a fact. Its called Five Eyes and they are our closest allies by far.murali_s said:
I'm calling bullsh*t on that!HYUFD said:
The EU are not our closest allies at all, our closest allies are Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the USADougSeal said:
The EU will be pissing itself at this “threat”. And they are not seeking to annex part of our country. They want a customs arrangement over part of one of their member states we unlawfully annexed. Why are you so keen to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies?Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.0 -
Here’s something that will blow your mind - millions of Brits travel to Europe each year. Millions of Europeans travel to the UK. If we stop co-operating on security they all get less safe. Cummings might think it’s all a bit of a wheeze, but no UK government will deliberately make UK citizens less secure.Philip_Thompson said:
I though poor wee David Britain was irrelevant to mighty Goliath Europe? How can we be making them less safe when they so completely don't need us and have been spending the last 3 years making that point so very vocally?SouthamObserver said:
Exactly. Making UK citizens poorer and less free is one thing. Making them less safe is something else completely.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.
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No, still very much up to date, we have never fought any wars against 3/4 of those nations and we share a Head of Stage, we have fought many wars against the EU and are currently fighting a diplomatic war with the EU now. Meanwhile the governments of Australia, Canada and New Zealand are all offering us a trade deal as is the US presidenteristdoof said:
You are 40 years out of date.HYUFD said:
The EU are not our closest allies at all, our closest allies are Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the USA.DougSeal said:
The EU will be pissing itself at this “threat”. And they are not seeking to annex part of our country. They want a customs arrangement over part of one of their member states we unlawfully annexed. Why are you so keen to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies?Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.0 -
Tory FC heading for a fourth title in a row. UK citizens about to become poorer, less free and, it seems, less secure. What a result!HYUFD said:
The Tories have expanded their poll lead with Comres tonight into majority territory, the strategy is working fine to win a Tory majority and then deliver Brexit, regain sovereignty and replace free movement with a points systemSouthamObserver said:So, the Cummings/Johnson strategy has failed completely. The next plan seems to resolve around making the UK poorer, less free, more dependent on the goodwill of others and less secure. You do have to wonder at what point Tory MPs begin to ask themselves what these two are leading their party and their country towards.
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We’ve seen today exactly the kind of bus that the US throws it’s allies under and, with all due respect to our Antipodean cousins, I’m not entirely sure how they can help us against, say, Russia more than, say, France.Philip_Thompson said:
Its a fact. Its called Five Eyes and they are our closest allies by far.murali_s said:
I'm calling bullsh*t on that!HYUFD said:
The EU are not our closest allies at all, our closest allies are Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the USADougSeal said:
The EU will be pissing itself at this “threat”. And they are not seeking to annex part of our country. They want a customs arrangement over part of one of their member states we unlawfully annexed. Why are you so keen to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies?Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.0 -
I agree but if there ends up being a groundswell against a particular party (e.g. Scottish Labour in 2015) things can go very badly. Always remember Nick Palmer being horrified in a number of safe seats that had by-elections where no-one in the local CLP had proper up to date canvassing records and there were barely any experienced volunteers as there'd never needed to be, compared to his own marginal where they knew exactly where all the Labour voters lived and had constant outreach.Benpointer said:
Nonsense and you know it. Whichever way the GE goes most MPs will retain their seats.MarqueeMark said:
Gonna be a clear out......whenever we get that election. The longer it takes, the bigger it will be.GIN1138 said:
8 in 10 voters will blame Parliament not Boris apparently (as myself and @Philip_Thompson have been saying)Benpointer said:FPT:
The government is going to be a fecking laughing stock in November when we've extended and these start hitting the streets.TGOHF2 said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/0 -
It’s very sweet you think the UK pays for Europe’s defence!Philip_Thompson said:
That's what was said about America too and European countries insisting America will pay for their defence still because they benefit from it.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.
Sure we benefit from a free Europe, but we don't need to pay for it. And if we don't, they will have no choice but to pick up the slack. It is realpolitik.
Does Europe need our assistance?
If yes, be our allies, agree a respectful deal.
If no, so long!
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0
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Your mate Donald covers that bill.SouthamObserver said:
It’s very sweet you think the UK pays for Europe’s defence!0 -
Indeed. We are almost entirely irrelevant in the overall scheme of things. If the Yanks pull out we’re all buggered.SunnyJim said:
Your mate Donald covers that bill.SouthamObserver said:
It’s very sweet you think the UK pays for Europe’s defence!
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Some quite bizarre results amongst that Comres poll. You’d expect given the earlier questions talking about blame to deliver similar results later in the survey but when asked whose fault it would be if a deal can’t be agreed more agreed the government than the EU .
44% the government
24% the EU .
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williamglenn said:
Johnson jumps the shark.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1181334406751035393
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You'll like HartlepoolFrancisUrquhart said:
IT WAS A JOKE....there is a long standing joke about it on here.Roger said:
MoronFrancisUrquhart said:
Well Paris is a shit hole.nico67 said:Utter delusion and desperation from the lunatics in no 10.
What next will they start nuking Paris and Berlin.
However, in all seriousness, it is far from my favourite European city.0 -
"This is the first time this year that ComRes have reported a Conservative majority."Wulfrun_Phil said:Tables here for the ComRes poll. Credit to them, they haven't like some hung around for days before putting them up.
https://www.comresglobal.com/polls/the-telegraph-voting-intention-october-2019/0 -
Makes you wonder how bad the opposition must be to not stop it.SouthamObserver said:
Tory FC heading for a fourth title in a row. UK citizens about to become poorer, less free and, it seems, less secure. What a result!HYUFD said:
The Tories have expanded their poll lead with Comres tonight into majority territory, the strategy is working fine to win a Tory majority and then deliver Brexit, regain sovereignty and replace free movement with a points systemSouthamObserver said:So, the Cummings/Johnson strategy has failed completely. The next plan seems to resolve around making the UK poorer, less free, more dependent on the goodwill of others and less secure. You do have to wonder at what point Tory MPs begin to ask themselves what these two are leading their party and their country towards.
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Comres has the SNP even lower than YouGov, down to just 32% in Scotland now though with Labour the beneficiaries rather than the LDs.Wulfrun_Phil said:Tables here for the ComRes poll. Credit to them, they haven't like some hung around for days before putting them up.
https://www.comresglobal.com/polls/the-telegraph-voting-intention-october-2019/
68% of Tories and 66% of Brexit Party voters say Boris would not be to blame for the UK not leaving the EU on 31st October, 82% of Labour voters and 87% of LDs say he would0 -
So we are to be on the hook for Europe's defence forever because they can't be arsed to look after themselves or us?SouthamObserver said:
Here’s something that will blow your mind - millions of Brits travel to Europe each year. Millions of Europeans travel to the UK. If we stop co-operating on security they all get less safe. Cummings might think it’s all a bit of a wheeze, but no UK government will deliberately make UK citizens less secure.Philip_Thompson said:
I though poor wee David Britain was irrelevant to mighty Goliath Europe? How can we be making them less safe when they so completely don't need us and have been spending the last 3 years making that point so very vocally?SouthamObserver said:
Exactly. Making UK citizens poorer and less free is one thing. Making them less safe is something else completely.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.
Here's something that will blow your mind. More Brits live in Australia than any European nation.0 -
The way in which Ireland was partitioned to create Northern Ireland certainly looks like an annexation from the point of view of Irish nationalists, contrary to later law on self-determination and decolonisation (see for example the recent judgment on the separation of the Chagos Islands from Mauritius).Philip_Thompson said:
We never unlawfully annexed any of their member states. NI always has been and in perpetuity shall remain unless the voters choose otherwise a part of our country. That is international law and you banging on about "unlawful annexation" are an absolute nutjob.DougSeal said:
The EU will be pissing itself at this “threat”. And they are not seeking to annex part of our country. They want a customs arrangement over part of one of their member states we unlawfully annexed. Why are you so keen to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies?Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Countries have control over their own customs. The EU trying to get "a customs arrangement" over a part of OUR country is a non-starter.
I'm not trying to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies. Not sure why you'd bring our fellow Five Eyes nations into this? They're not a part of Brexit.0 -
Why? We've heard nothing but how fanbloodytastic the EU is for the last three to five years. Why isn't the EU big enough and ugly enough to look after its own backyard?SouthamObserver said:
Indeed. We are almost entirely irrelevant in the overall scheme of things. If the Yanks pull out we’re all buggered.SunnyJim said:
Your mate Donald covers that bill.SouthamObserver said:
It’s very sweet you think the UK pays for Europe’s defence!1 -
Is that picture of Spock from the conspiracy website "God like productions"? I am sure I have seen it on that website before now!Philip_Thompson said:0 -
Maybe it will have to be. Either way, the UK is largely irrelevant. We do not protect Europe. The Americans do.Philip_Thompson said:
Why? We've heard nothing but how fanbloodytastic the EU is for the last three to five years. Why isn't the EU big enough and ugly enough to look after its own backyard?SouthamObserver said:
Indeed. We are almost entirely irrelevant in the overall scheme of things. If the Yanks pull out we’re all buggered.SunnyJim said:
Your mate Donald covers that bill.SouthamObserver said:
It’s very sweet you think the UK pays for Europe’s defence!
0 -
BritainElects has the correct changes for the latest opinion poll.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/11813150806270730302 -
Why do you prefer alliances with distant and (with all due respect) militarily lightweight countries like NZ and Aus? Any idiot can see that our security interests are in our own region, Europe with our closest neighbours and friends. The Australians and the Kiwis have China to worry about, we have Russia. They are different threats.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes and when it comes to agility the 1 country can easily be more powerful than the 27.noneoftheabove said:
Realpolitik would be recognising where the power balance lies between 1 country vs 27 countries and whether it is more productive to co-operate or wave around empty threats. The answer is blindingly obvious.Philip_Thompson said:
That's what was said about America too and European countries insisting America will pay for their defence still because they benefit from it.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.
Sure we benefit from a free Europe, but we don't need to pay for it. And if we don't, they will have no choice but to pick up the slack. It is realpolitik.
Does Europe need our assistance?
If yes, be our allies, agree a respectful deal.
If no, so long!
I'm all up for co-operation so long as it is mutual.
Australia and NZ will, over time, become more and more culturally distant from us but we will never leave Europe. You may not like it but we are stuck with them and this idiotic posturing is alienating countries we need help from far more than those on the other side of the planet.0 -
Er, the UK is a European country, Phillip. Put your willy away and look at a map.Philip_Thompson said:
So we are to be on the hook for Europe's defence forever because they can't be arsed to look after themselves or us?SouthamObserver said:
Here’s something that will blow your mind - millions of Brits travel to Europe each year. Millions of Europeans travel to the UK. If we stop co-operating on security they all get less safe. Cummings might think it’s all a bit of a wheeze, but no UK government will deliberately make UK citizens less secure.Philip_Thompson said:
I though poor wee David Britain was irrelevant to mighty Goliath Europe? How can we be making them less safe when they so completely don't need us and have been spending the last 3 years making that point so very vocally?SouthamObserver said:
Exactly. Making UK citizens poorer and less free is one thing. Making them less safe is something else completely.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.
Here's something that will blow your mind. More Brits live in Australia than any European nation.
0 -
"Patients and staff at St Thomas' Hospital were stranded, with ambulances struggling to get in or out. One paramedic at the hospital on the south side of Westminster Bridge said the protests caused 'a lot of disruption' and delayed ambulance journeys by up to 15 minutes. The gridlock left one cancer patient stuck outside the hospital for more than an hour because a taxi couldn't get to her."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7547955/Boris-Johnson-slams-Extinction-Rebellions-nose-ringed-crusties-hemp-smelling-bivouacs.html0 -
Go cry me a river.OblitusSumMe said:
The way in which Ireland was partitioned to create Northern Ireland certainly looks like an annexation from the point of view of Irish nationalists, contrary to later law on self-determination and decolonisation (see for example the recent judgment on the separation of the Chagos Islands from Mauritius).Philip_Thompson said:
We never unlawfully annexed any of their member states. NI always has been and in perpetuity shall remain unless the voters choose otherwise a part of our country. That is international law and you banging on about "unlawful annexation" are an absolute nutjob.DougSeal said:
The EU will be pissing itself at this “threat”. And they are not seeking to annex part of our country. They want a customs arrangement over part of one of their member states we unlawfully annexed. Why are you so keen to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies?Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Countries have control over their own customs. The EU trying to get "a customs arrangement" over a part of OUR country is a non-starter.
I'm not trying to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies. Not sure why you'd bring our fellow Five Eyes nations into this? They're not a part of Brexit.
Not only was that case you reference an advisory one nnot a legally-binding one, Ireland was lawfully partitioned prior to later laws on self-determination and decolonisation by definition, while the separation of the Chagos Islands from Mauritius was after the rules were made which is what the ruling was based on. Partitions and border changes happened constantly across Europe over the last couple of thousand years, none of those are affected by "UN resolution 1514 passed in 1960" unlike the Mauritius case.1 -
Brexit turns the UK into another place in the EU's backyard that they need to manage.Philip_Thompson said:
Why? We've heard nothing but how fanbloodytastic the EU is for the last three to five years. Why isn't the EU big enough and ugly enough to look after its own backyard?SouthamObserver said:
Indeed. We are almost entirely irrelevant in the overall scheme of things. If the Yanks pull out we’re all buggered.SunnyJim said:
Your mate Donald covers that bill.SouthamObserver said:
It’s very sweet you think the UK pays for Europe’s defence!0 -
+1 Brexit is a false choice.DougSeal said:
Why do you prefer alliances with distant and (with all due respect) militarily lightweight countries like NZ and Aus? Any idiot can see that our security interests are in our own region, Europe with our closest neighbours and friends. The Australians and the Kiwis have China to worry about, we have Russia. They are different threats.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes and when it comes to agility the 1 country can easily be more powerful than the 27.noneoftheabove said:
Realpolitik would be recognising where the power balance lies between 1 country vs 27 countries and whether it is more productive to co-operate or wave around empty threats. The answer is blindingly obvious.Philip_Thompson said:
That's what was said about America too and European countries insisting America will pay for their defence still because they benefit from it.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.
Sure we benefit from a free Europe, but we don't need to pay for it. And if we don't, they will have no choice but to pick up the slack. It is realpolitik.
Does Europe need our assistance?
If yes, be our allies, agree a respectful deal.
If no, so long!
I'm all up for co-operation so long as it is mutual.
Australia and NZ will, over time, become more and more culturally distant from us but we will never leave Europe. You may not like it but we are stuck with them and this idiotic posturing is alienating countries we need help from far more than those on the other side of the planet.0 -
Absolutely. Corbyn is the Tory get out of jail free card at the next election. If you support Tory FC that’s great. If you’re more interested in the future of the country it’s less of a cause for celebration. Johnson clearly has no idea how to navigate the reality of No Deal.ralphmalph said:
Makes you wonder how bad the opposition must be to not stop it.SouthamObserver said:
Tory FC heading for a fourth title in a row. UK citizens about to become poorer, less free and, it seems, less secure. What a result!HYUFD said:
The Tories have expanded their poll lead with Comres tonight into majority territory, the strategy is working fine to win a Tory majority and then deliver Brexit, regain sovereignty and replace free movement with a points systemSouthamObserver said:So, the Cummings/Johnson strategy has failed completely. The next plan seems to resolve around making the UK poorer, less free, more dependent on the goodwill of others and less secure. You do have to wonder at what point Tory MPs begin to ask themselves what these two are leading their party and their country towards.
0 -
There may be two l's in willy but I only have one l in my name thank you.SouthamObserver said:
Er, the UK is a European country, Phillip. Put your willy away and look at a map.Philip_Thompson said:
So we are to be on the hook for Europe's defence forever because they can't be arsed to look after themselves or us?SouthamObserver said:
Here’s something that will blow your mind - millions of Brits travel to Europe each year. Millions of Europeans travel to the UK. If we stop co-operating on security they all get less safe. Cummings might think it’s all a bit of a wheeze, but no UK government will deliberately make UK citizens less secure.Philip_Thompson said:
I though poor wee David Britain was irrelevant to mighty Goliath Europe? How can we be making them less safe when they so completely don't need us and have been spending the last 3 years making that point so very vocally?SouthamObserver said:
Exactly. Making UK citizens poorer and less free is one thing. Making them less safe is something else completely.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.
Here's something that will blow your mind. More Brits live in Australia than any European nation.
The UK is a country on this planet of ours called Earth that can be rapidly travelled quite easily. Europe is just one tiny continent on that planet. Open your mind and broaden your horizons.0 -
Voters believe by 42% to 40% the UK should leave with No Deal on 31st October if the EU does not agree to Boris' Brexit Deal proposals, including 77% of Tory voters and 94% of Brexit Party voters and 77% of Leave voters.
https://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Telegraph_Voting_Intention_Tables_Oct_2019.pdf
0 -
Was it not old Ma Beckett who put him on the ballot ?SouthamObserver said:
Absolutely. Corbyn is the Tory get out of jail free card at the next election. If you support Tory FC that’s great. If you’re more interested in the future of the country it’s less of a cause for celebration. Johnson clearly has no idea how to navigate the reality of No Deal.ralphmalph said:
Makes you wonder how bad the opposition must be to not stop it.SouthamObserver said:
Tory FC heading for a fourth title in a row. UK citizens about to become poorer, less free and, it seems, less secure. What a result!HYUFD said:
The Tories have expanded their poll lead with Comres tonight into majority territory, the strategy is working fine to win a Tory majority and then deliver Brexit, regain sovereignty and replace free movement with a points systemSouthamObserver said:So, the Cummings/Johnson strategy has failed completely. The next plan seems to resolve around making the UK poorer, less free, more dependent on the goodwill of others and less secure. You do have to wonder at what point Tory MPs begin to ask themselves what these two are leading their party and their country towards.
What were Labour thinking . They deserve all of it.0 -
We will always be culturally closer to Australia and NZ than Europe, even if their Asian population grows so is ours too anywayDougSeal said:
Why do you prefer alliances with distant and (with all due respect) militarily lightweight countries like NZ and Aus? Any idiot can see that our security interests are in our own region, Europe with our closest neighbours and friends. The Australians and the Kiwis have China to worry about, we have Russia. They are different threats.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes and when it comes to agility the 1 country can easily be more powerful than the 27.noneoftheabove said:
Realpolitik would be recognising where the power balance lies between 1 country vs 27 countries and whether it is more productive to co-operate or wave around empty threats. The answer is blindingly obvious.Philip_Thompson said:
That's what was said about America too and European countries insisting America will pay for their defence still because they benefit from it.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.
Sure we benefit from a free Europe, but we don't need to pay for it. And if we don't, they will have no choice but to pick up the slack. It is realpolitik.
Does Europe need our assistance?
If yes, be our allies, agree a respectful deal.
If no, so long!
I'm all up for co-operation so long as it is mutual.
Australia and NZ will, over time, become more and more culturally distant from us but we will never leave Europe. You may not like it but we are stuck with them and this idiotic posturing is alienating countries we need help from far more than those on the other side of the planet.0 -
As Forsythe/Cummings says, "they don’t understand the electoral dynamics here".HYUFD said:Voters believe by 42% to 40% the UK should leave with No Deal on 31st October if the EU does not agree to Boris' Brexit Deal proposals, including 77% of Tory voters and 94% of Brexit Party voters and 77% of Leave voters.
https://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Telegraph_Voting_Intention_Tables_Oct_2019.pdf
0 -
27% of current Tory voters would blame Johnson to some extent or a large extent. That's a large chunk of voters potentially at risk - if you take this hypothetical question at face value (which would be silly, much will depend on how the public mood crystallises at the time, which is yet to be shaped by the actors involved).HYUFD said:
Comres has the SNP even lower than YouGov, down to just 32% in Scotland now though with Labour the beneficiaries rather than the LDs.Wulfrun_Phil said:Tables here for the ComRes poll. Credit to them, they haven't like some hung around for days before putting them up.
https://www.comresglobal.com/polls/the-telegraph-voting-intention-october-2019/
68% of Tories and 66% of Brexit Party voters say Boris would not be to blame for the UK not leaving the EU on 31st October, 82% of Labour voters and 87% of LDs say he would0 -
I got it from an image hosting website and I found it via a simple Google Image Search. I know nothing about what website it originated from, I just put the phrase 'spock it's only logical' into Google, chose an image I liked and posted it here.The_Taxman said:
Is that picture of Spock from the conspiracy website "God like productions"? I am sure I have seen it on that website before now!Philip_Thompson said:
You may have seen it on other websites but I highly doubt it originated from there, it is a meme.0 -
Bless you. I am off to Japan in three weeks. The 350 person business I help to run - and still retain a share in - is holding an event for more than 400 senior executives from various Asian, European and North American countries there. We did a similar one for 650 in Boston in June.Philip_Thompson said:
There may be two l's in willy but I only have one l in my name thank you.SouthamObserver said:
Er, the UK is a European country, Phillip. Put your willy away and look at a map.Philip_Thompson said:
So we are to be on the hook for Europe's defence forever because they can't be arsed to look after themselves or us?SouthamObserver said:
Here’s something that will blow your mind - millions of Brits travel to Europe each year. Millions of Europeans travel to the UK. If we stop co-operating on security they all get less safe. Cummings might think it’s all a bit of a wheeze, but no UK government will deliberately make UK citizens less secure.Philip_Thompson said:
I though poor wee David Britain was irrelevant to mighty Goliath Europe? How can we be making them less safe when they so completely don't need us and have been spending the last 3 years making that point so very vocally?SouthamObserver said:
Exactly. Making UK citizens poorer and less free is one thing. Making them less safe is something else completely.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.
Here's something that will blow your mind. More Brits live in Australia than any European nation.
The UK is a country on this planet of ours called Earth that can be rapidly travelled quite easily. Europe is just one tiny continent on that planet. Open your mind and broaden your horizons.
0 -
This is a pathetic argument. You don't being more worldly by isolating yourself from your own continent.Philip_Thompson said:
There may be two l's in willy but I only have one l in my name thank you.SouthamObserver said:
Er, the UK is a European country, Phillip. Put your willy away and look at a map.Philip_Thompson said:
So we are to be on the hook for Europe's defence forever because they can't be arsed to look after themselves or us?SouthamObserver said:
Here’s something that will blow your mind - millions of Brits travel to Europe each year. Millions of Europeans travel to the UK. If we stop co-operating on security they all get less safe. Cummings might think it’s all a bit of a wheeze, but no UK government will deliberately make UK citizens less secure.Philip_Thompson said:
I though poor wee David Britain was irrelevant to mighty Goliath Europe? How can we be making them less safe when they so completely don't need us and have been spending the last 3 years making that point so very vocally?SouthamObserver said:
Exactly. Making UK citizens poorer and less free is one thing. Making them less safe is something else completely.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.
Here's something that will blow your mind. More Brits live in Australia than any European nation.
The UK is a country on this planet of ours called Earth that can be rapidly travelled quite easily. Europe is just one tiny continent on that planet. Open your mind and broaden your horizons.0 -
This is surely the key question from the ComRes poll, posing exactly the same choice that the UK is facing now:
"If the EU doesn't agree to Boris Johnson's proposals for a Brexit deal, the UK should leave on 31st October without a deal"
Agree 42
Disagree 40
DK 18
That despite there being a lot more 2016 Remain than Leave voters in their reweighted sample.0 -
I'm not sure arguments about exactly whose fault it is that relations between the EU27 and UK have collapsed matter much. The important thing to consider is that we are now facing a very real prospect of a drastic, semi-permanent cooling of relations. On the British side, the longer this goes on, the more radically anti-EU a certain section of the public will become. On the EU side, the longer this goes on, the more exasperated and frustrated a certain section of Brussels mandarins will become.
If we want to avoid this cooling - something that is, from a rational perspective, clearly in the interests of both sides - then something has to give to stop this ultimatum -> delay -> ultimatum cycle.
I don't think a revocation or second referendum -> Remain vote fixes this cycle, because the UK still has roughly half of its population that will continue to become more and more radically anti-EU as long as they feel that the government is not reflecting their views.
To avoid a historic split between the UK and EU27, MPs need to set aside their egos, vote for a deal, and ensure that we leave on broadly good terms that can set the groundwork for a reconstruction of the close relationship we had prior to the destructive ultimatum -> delay -> ultimatum cycle.
However, I think that setting aside their egos is impossible for this current Parliament, so I'm feeling pretty pessimistic about the whole thing.0 -
If you are going to throw around words like annexation in relation to Northern Ireland then expect to be challenged, because your ignorance is stunning.Philip_Thompson said:
Go cry me a river.OblitusSumMe said:
The way in which Ireland was partitioned to create Northern Ireland certainly looks like an annexation from the point of view of Irish nationalists, contrary to later law on self-determination and decolonisation (see for example the recent judgment on the separation of the Chagos Islands from Mauritius).Philip_Thompson said:
We never unlawfully annexed any of their member states. NI always has been and in perpetuity shall remain unless the voters choose otherwise a part of our country. That is international law and you banging on about "unlawful annexation" are an absolute nutjob.DougSeal said:
The EU will be pissing itself at this “threat”. And they are not seeking to annex part of our country. They want a customs arrangement over part of one of their member states we unlawfully annexed. Why are you so keen to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies?Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Countries have control over their own customs. The EU trying to get "a customs arrangement" over a part of OUR country is a non-starter.
I'm not trying to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies. Not sure why you'd bring our fellow Five Eyes nations into this? They're not a part of Brexit.
Not only was that case you reference an advisory one nnot a legally-binding one, Ireland was lawfully partitioned prior to later laws on self-determination and decolonisation by definition, while the separation of the Chagos Islands from Mauritius was after the rules were made which is what the ruling was based on. Partitions and border changes happened constantly across Europe over the last couple of thousand years, none of those are affected by "UN resolution 1514 passed in 1960" unlike the Mauritius case.0 -
Shocking.Andy_JS said:"Patients and staff at St Thomas' Hospital were stranded, with ambulances struggling to get in or out. One paramedic at the hospital on the south side of Westminster Bridge said the protests caused 'a lot of disruption' and delayed ambulance journeys by up to 15 minutes. The gridlock left one cancer patient stuck outside the hospital for more than an hour because a taxi couldn't get to her."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7547955/Boris-Johnson-slams-Extinction-Rebellions-nose-ringed-crusties-hemp-smelling-bivouacs.html
Any route in or out of a hospital should be kept clear.
Interesting that polticians who are supporting these criminal actions keep going on about how the PM should obey the law isn't it?2 -
I think you will find our close friends in Five Eyes are anything but lightweight, unlike many European nations that may happen to be our neighbours.DougSeal said:
Why do you prefer alliances with distant and (with all due respect) militarily lightweight countries like NZ and Aus? Any idiot can see that our security interests are in our own region, Europe with our closest neighbours and friends. The Australians and the Kiwis have China to worry about, we have Russia. They are different threats.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes and when it comes to agility the 1 country can easily be more powerful than the 27.noneoftheabove said:Realpolitik would be recognising where the power balance lies between 1 country vs 27 countries and whether it is more productive to co-operate or wave around empty threats. The answer is blindingly obvious.
I'm all up for co-operation so long as it is mutual.
Australia and NZ will, over time, become more and more culturally distant from us but we will never leave Europe. You may not like it but we are stuck with them and this idiotic posturing is alienating countries we need help from far more than those on the other side of the planet.
I prefer alliances with nations that share our interests. Nations have interests, not friends. Japan is neighbours with China, does that make China Japan's closest friend and ally?
As for Russia, that is so 20th century. Russia is an impoverished pathetic backwater, a pale imitation of its former self and when their petrochemical money runs dry inevitably in coming years and we become self-sufficient in 21st century sustainable energy they will be nothing for anyone but their closest neighbours to worry themselves with.
We don't have to worry about Russia that much. We have to worry far more about China and Islamic extremism than we do Russia and our Five Eyes partners are more adept at assisting us with those threats than sclerotic Europe.0 -
We want to trade with our own continent, just not be run by the rest of the continentwilliamglenn said:
This is a pathetic argument. You don't being more worldly by isolating yourself from your own continent.Philip_Thompson said:
There may be two l's in willy but I only have one l in my name thank you.SouthamObserver said:
Er, the UK is a European country, Phillip. Put your willy away and look at a map.Philip_Thompson said:
So we are to be on the hook for Europe's defence forever because they can't be arsed to look after themselves or us?SouthamObserver said:
Here’s something that will blow your mind - millions of Brits travel to Europe each year. Millions of Europeans travel to the UK. If we stop co-operating on security they all get less safe. Cummings might think it’s all a bit of a wheeze, but no UK government will deliberately make UK citizens less secure.Philip_Thompson said:
I though poor wee David Britain was irrelevant to mighty Goliath Europe? How can we be making them less safe when they so completely don't need us and have been spending the last 3 years making that point so very vocally?SouthamObserver said:
Exactly. Making UK citizens poorer and less free is one thing. Making them less safe is something else completely.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.
Here's something that will blow your mind. More Brits live in Australia than any European nation.
The UK is a country on this planet of ours called Earth that can be rapidly travelled quite easily. Europe is just one tiny continent on that planet. Open your mind and broaden your horizons.0 -
A
You only ever advocate alliances and friendships with majority white, English speaking, countries. That is exceptionally narrow minded of you. You have a specific obsession with Australia. Going to Australia I’m sure is great fun but it’s hardly linguistically or culturally horizon broadening given its similarities to us.Philip_Thompson said:
There may be two l's in willy but I only have one l in my name thank you.SouthamObserver said:
Er, the UK is a European country, Phillip. Put your willy away and look at a map.Philip_Thompson said:
So we are to be on the hook for Europe's defence forever because they can't be arsed to look after themselves or us?SouthamObserver said:
Here’s something that will blow your mind - millions of Brits travel to Europe each year. Millions of Europeans travel to the UK. If we stop co-operating on security they all get less safe. Cummings might think it’s all a bit of a wheeze, but no UK government will deliberately make UK citizens less secure.Philip_Thompson said:
I though poor wee David Britain was irrelevant to mighty Goliath Europe? How can we be making them less safe when they so completely don't need us and have been spending the last 3 years making that point so very vocally?SouthamObserver said:
Exactly. Making UK citizens poorer and less free is one thing. Making them less safe is something else completely.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.
Its as simple as that.
Here's something that will blow your mind. More Brits live in Australia than any European nation.
The UK is a country on this planet of ours called Earth that can be rapidly travelled quite easily. Europe is just one tiny continent on that planet. Open your mind and broaden your horizons.
Australia is a friend of ours but it had different interests because it is so far away. We are locked into Europe. We will, post Scots Independence, be surrounded on all sides by EU countries. We cannot escape Europe. We need to cooperate with them or it will damage our interests. Despite your assertions WE are the ones who are being needlessly provocative - particularly in respect of our failure to recognise the historical rights of Ireland in Northern Ireland. We need them more than they need us.0 -
Textually it reads like Cummings or one of the senior Vote Leave staffers now in Downing St who talks to Cummings every day. It reads like ranting from the Bunker because it is. They didn't war game having to dissolve after the clocks went back and having extended and having formally split the Conservative Party. They've got high on their own supply and are now having to use increasing doses to get the same hit.williamglenn said:Johnson jumps the shark.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/11813344067510353931 -
Fermanagh and Tyrone were Catholic-majority in 1918.Philip_Thompson said:
Go cry me a river.OblitusSumMe said:
The way in which Ireland was partitioned to create Northern Ireland certainly looks like an annexation from the point of view of Irish nationalists, contrary to later law on self-determination and decolonisation (see for example the recent judgment on the separation of the Chagos Islands from Mauritius).Philip_Thompson said:
We never unlawfully annexed any of their member states. NI always has been and in perpetuity shall remain unless the voters choose otherwise a part of our country. That is international law and you banging on about "unlawful annexation" are an absolute nutjob.DougSeal said:
The EU will be pissing itself at this “threat”. And they are not seeking to annex part of our country. They want a customs arrangement over part of one of their member states we unlawfully annexed. Why are you so keen to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies?Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Countries have control over their own customs. The EU trying to get "a customs arrangement" over a part of OUR country is a non-starter.
I'm not trying to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies. Not sure why you'd bring our fellow Five Eyes nations into this? They're not a part of Brexit.
Not only was that case you reference an advisory one nnot a legally-binding one, Ireland was lawfully partitioned prior to later laws on self-determination and decolonisation by definition, while the separation of the Chagos Islands from Mauritius was after the rules were made which is what the ruling was based on. Partitions and border changes happened constantly across Europe over the last couple of thousand years, none of those are affected by "UN resolution 1514 passed in 1960" unlike the Mauritius case.0 -
There is no guarantee of Scottish independence, Ireland also needs to respect the historical rights of Protestant Unionists in Northern IrelandDougSeal said:A
You only ever advocate alliances and friendships with majority white, English speaking, countries. That is exceptionally narrow minded of you. You have a specific obsession with Australia. Going to Australia I’m sure is great fun but it’s hardly linguistically or culturally horizon broadening given its similarities to us.Philip_Thompson said:
There may be two l's in willy but I only have one l in my name thank you.SouthamObserver said:
Er, the UK is a European country, Phillip. Put your willy away and look at a map.Philip_Thompson said:
So we are to be on the hook for Europe's defence forever because they can't be arsed to look after themselves or us?SouthamObserver said:
Here’s something that will blow your mind - millions of Brits travel to Europe each year. Millions of Europeans travel to the UK. If we stop co-operating on security they all get less safe. Cummings might think it’s all a bit of a wheeze, but no UK government will deliberately make UK citizens less secure.Philip_Thompson said:
I though poor wee David Britain was irrelevant to mighty Goliath Europe? How can we be making them less safe when they so completely don't need us and have been spending the last 3 years making that point so very vocally?SouthamObserver said:
Exactly. Making UK citizens poorer and less free is one thing. Making them less safe is something else completely.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.
Its as simple as that.
Here's something that will blow your mind. More Brits live in Australia than any European nation.
The UK is a country on this planet of ours called Earth that can be rapidly travelled quite easily. Europe is just one tiny continent on that planet. Open your mind and broaden your horizons.
Australia is a friend of ours but it had different interests because it is so far away. We are locked into Europe. We will, post Scots Independence, be surrounded on all sides by EU countries. We cannot escape Europe. We need to cooperate with them or it will damage our interests. Despite your assertions WE are the ones who are being needlessly provocative - particularly in respect of our failure to recognise the historical rights of Ireland in Northern Ireland. We need them more than they need us.0 -
They may blame him (and I do think Con's poll rating will initially go down a few percentage points) but then we're in to an election campaign and the choice for Leave voters that will be on the table is simple:OblitusSumMe said:
27% of current Tory voters would blame Johnson to some extent or a large extent. That's a large chunk of voters potentially at risk - if you take this hypothetical question at face value (which would be silly, much will depend on how the public mood crystallises at the time, which is yet to be shaped by the actors involved).HYUFD said:
Comres has the SNP even lower than YouGov, down to just 32% in Scotland now though with Labour the beneficiaries rather than the LDs.Wulfrun_Phil said:Tables here for the ComRes poll. Credit to them, they haven't like some hung around for days before putting them up.
https://www.comresglobal.com/polls/the-telegraph-voting-intention-october-2019/
68% of Tories and 66% of Brexit Party voters say Boris would not be to blame for the UK not leaving the EU on 31st October, 82% of Labour voters and 87% of LDs say he would
To Leave vote Con.
To Remain vote for everyone else.
And so Leave voters will vote Con as any result other than a Con majority leads inevitably to no Brexit.0 -
So the plan is to fight Islamic extremis by scaling back on security cooperation with European countries. Brave.Philip_Thompson said:
I think you will find our close friends in Five Eyes are anything but lightweight, unlike many European nations that may happen to be our neighbours.DougSeal said:
Why do you prefer alliances with distant and (with all due respect) militarily lightweight countries like NZ and Aus? Any idiot can see that our security interests are in our own region, Europe with our closest neighbours and friends. The Australians and the Kiwis have China to worry about, we have Russia. They are different threats.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes and when it comes to agility the 1 country can easily be more powerful than the 27.noneoftheabove said:Realpolitik would be recognising where the power balance lies between 1 country vs 27 countries and whether it is more productive to co-operate or wave around empty threats. The answer is blindingly obvious.
I'm all up for co-operation so long as it is mutual.
Australia and NZ will, over time, become more and more culturally distant from us but we will never leave Europe. You may not like it but we are stuck with them and this idiotic posturing is alienating countries we need help from far more than those on the other side of the planet.
I prefer alliances with nations that share our interests. Nations have interests, not friends. Japan is neighbours with China, does that make China Japan's closest friend and ally?
As for Russia, that is so 20th century. Russia is an impoverished pathetic backwater, a pale imitation of its former self and when their petrochemical money runs dry inevitably in coming years and we become self-sufficient in 21st century sustainable energy they will be nothing for anyone but their closest neighbours to worry themselves with.
We don't have to worry about Russia that much. We have to worry far more about China and Islamic extremism than we do Russia and our Five Eyes partners are more adept at assisting us with those threats than sclerotic Europe.
0 -
Thanks.Philip_Thompson said:
I got it from an image hosting website and I found it via a simple Google Image Search. I know nothing about what website it originated from, I just put the phrase 'spock it's only logical' into Google, chose an image I liked and posted it here.The_Taxman said:
Is that picture of Spock from the conspiracy website "God like productions"? I am sure I have seen it on that website before now!Philip_Thompson said:
You may have seen it on other websites but I highly doubt it originated from there, it is a meme.0 -
They have had their rights respected to the hilt. What do you think the orange in the Irish Tricolour stands for? Why do you think Orange Order marches in Donegal go ahead without a problem? (Hint on the last question - it’s the absence of British Rule)HYUFD said:
There is no guarantee of Scottish independence, Ireland also needs to respect the historical rights of Protestant Unionists in Northern IrelandDougSeal said:A
You only ever advocate alliances and friendships with majority white, English speaking, countries. That is exceptionally narrow minded of you. You have a specific obsession with Australia. Going to Australia I’m sure is great fun but it’s hardly linguistically or culturally horizon broadening given its similarities to us.Philip_Thompson said:
There may be two l's in willy but I only have one l in my name thank you.SouthamObserver said:
Er, the UK is a European country, Phillip. Put your willy away and look at a map.Philip_Thompson said:
So we are to be on the hook for Europe's defence forever because they can't be arsed to look after themselves or us?SouthamObserver said:
Here’s something that will blow your mind - millions of Brits travel to Europe each year. Millions of Europeans travel to the UK. If we stop co-operating on security they all get less safe. Cummings might think it’s all a bit of a wheeze, but no UK government will deliberately make UK citizens less secure.Philip_Thompson said:
I though poor wee David Britain was irrelevant to mighty Goliath Europe? How can we be making them less safe when they so completely don't need us and have been spending the last 3 years making that point so very vocally?SouthamObserver said:
Exactly. Making UK citizens poorer and less free is one thing. Making them less safe is something else completely.
Here's something that will blow your mind. More Brits live in Australia than any European nation.
The UK is a country on this planet of ours called Earth that can be rapidly travelled quite easily. Europe is just one tiny continent on that planet. Open your mind and broaden your horizons.
Australia is a friend of ours but it had different interests because it is so far away. We are locked into Europe. We will, post Scots Independence, be surrounded on all sides by EU countries. We cannot escape Europe. We need to cooperate with them or it will damage our interests. Despite your assertions WE are the ones who are being needlessly provocative - particularly in respect of our failure to recognise the historical rights of Ireland in Northern Ireland. We need them more than they need us.0 -
What part of "majority white, English speaking, countries" is it that you object to considering that every single EU27 nation that we are supposed to be so close and allied with allegedly are also majority white?DougSeal said:
You only ever advocate alliances and friendships with majority white, English speaking, countries. That is exceptionally narrow minded of you. You have a specific obsession with Australia. Going to Australia I’m sure is great fun but it’s hardly linguistically or culturally horizon broadening given its similarities to us.Philip_Thompson said:The UK is a country on this planet of ours called Earth that can be rapidly travelled quite easily. Europe is just one tiny continent on that planet. Open your mind and broaden your horizons.
Australia is a friend of ours but it had different interests because it is so far away. We are locked into Europe. We will, post Scots Independence, be surrounded on all sides by EU countries. We cannot escape Europe. We need to cooperate with them or it will damage our interests. Despite your assertions WE are the ones who are being needlessly provocative - particularly in respect of our failure to recognise the historical rights of Ireland in Northern Ireland. We need them more than they need us.
Is it just "English speaking" you have an objection to? Oh gee whiz why do I think we have more in common with English speaking nations than other ones, however will we resolve this dilemma? Yeah let's bring white into it despite all other nations you compare us with our white too! *rolleyes*
We don't need them. We want to be on good terms with them but that doesn't mean rolling over and playing dead.
Open your mind, Australia isn't far from us, its on this same small planet of ours. This is the 21st century not the 15th century. Global communications are instantaneous, global travel can be done in hours not weeks. Nowhere on this tiny planet of ours is remote from us.0 -
Canadian leaders' debate now underwayHYUFD said:Programme for the Final Canadian leaders debate before the 21st October general election just started
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VRliFlrvfA0 -
Yup. Hard to believe Labour are going to walk into this when they have the power to go directly into government and shuffle the pack, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯GIN1138 said:
They may blame him (and I do think Con's poll rating will initially go down a few percentage points) but then we're in to an election campaign and the choice for Leave voters that will be on the table is simple:OblitusSumMe said:
27% of current Tory voters would blame Johnson to some extent or a large extent. That's a large chunk of voters potentially at risk - if you take this hypothetical question at face value (which would be silly, much will depend on how the public mood crystallises at the time, which is yet to be shaped by the actors involved).HYUFD said:
Comres has the SNP even lower than YouGov, down to just 32% in Scotland now though with Labour the beneficiaries rather than the LDs.Wulfrun_Phil said:Tables here for the ComRes poll. Credit to them, they haven't like some hung around for days before putting them up.
https://www.comresglobal.com/polls/the-telegraph-voting-intention-october-2019/
68% of Tories and 66% of Brexit Party voters say Boris would not be to blame for the UK not leaving the EU on 31st October, 82% of Labour voters and 87% of LDs say he would
To Leave vote Con.
To Remain vote for everyone else.
And so Leave voters will vote Con as any result other than a Con majority leads inevitably to no Brexit.0 -
Good for you. We are not European, we are human. Asia, Europe, North America - it doesn't matter.SouthamObserver said:
Bless you. I am off to Japan in three weeks. The 350 person business I help to run - and still retain a share in - is holding an event for more than 400 senior executives from various Asian, European and North American countries there. We did a similar one for 650 in Boston in June.Philip_Thompson said:The UK is a country on this planet of ours called Earth that can be rapidly travelled quite easily. Europe is just one tiny continent on that planet. Open your mind and broaden your horizons.
Closing our eyes to Asia and North America and hyperventilating about Europe alone is not progress. We are a country on earth that can be accessed SAME DAY from every other planet on earth, just like every other one.0 -
I think the problem of "roughly half the population will continue to become more and more radically anti-EU" comes from the Brexit supporting media. Until they turn off the poison the problem will persist. Sure, even if the Brexit supporting media became indifferent to the EU, a minority of the population will remain aggrieved. Being anti-EU sells newspapers - that is what has driven much of the grievance through the Brexit supporting media citing through their eyes a malevolent force. Human's are conditioned to hate and fear!Bournville said:I'm not sure arguments about exactly whose fault it is that relations between the EU27 and UK have collapsed matter much. The important thing to consider is that we are now facing a very real prospect of a drastic, semi-permanent cooling of relations. On the British side, the longer this goes on, the more radically anti-EU a certain section of the public will become. On the EU side, the longer this goes on, the more exasperated and frustrated a certain section of Brussels mandarins will become.
If we want to avoid this cooling - something that is, from a rational perspective, clearly in the interests of both sides - then something has to give to stop this ultimatum -> delay -> ultimatum cycle.
I don't think a revocation or second referendum -> Remain vote fixes this cycle, because the UK still has roughly half of its population that will continue to become more and more radically anti-EU as long as they feel that the government is not reflecting their views.
To avoid a historic split between the UK and EU27, MPs need to set aside their egos, vote for a deal, and ensure that we leave on broadly good terms that can set the groundwork for a reconstruction of the close relationship we had prior to the destructive ultimatum -> delay -> ultimatum cycle.
However, I think that setting aside their egos is impossible for this current Parliament, so I'm feeling pretty pessimistic about the whole thing.0 -
Only if Europe doesn't want to cooperate with us as allies. Which would be brave.SouthamObserver said:So the plan is to fight Islamic extremis by scaling back on security cooperation with European countries. Brave.
Why wouldn't Europe want us as allies?0 -
And more Chagos Islanders live in the UK than in the, er, Chagos Islands.Philip_Thompson said:
So we are to be on the hook for Europe's defence forever because they can't be arsed to look after themselves or us?SouthamObserver said:
Here’s something that will blow your mind - millions of Brits travel to Europe each year. Millions of Europeans travel to the UK. If we stop co-operating on security they all get less safe. Cummings might think it’s all a bit of a wheeze, but no UK government will deliberately make UK citizens less secure.Philip_Thompson said:
I though poor wee David Britain was irrelevant to mighty Goliath Europe? How can we be making them less safe when they so completely don't need us and have been spending the last 3 years making that point so very vocally?SouthamObserver said:
Exactly. Making UK citizens poorer and less free is one thing. Making them less safe is something else completely.Gallowgate said:
It doesn’t really matter what you say because we’ll continue to work with European countries for defence purposes regardless of what empty threats the Government comes out with because we benefit from them.Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
Its as simple as that.
Here's something that will blow your mind. More Brits live in Australia than any European nation.0 -
Labour ‘centrists’ put an option they thought couldn’t win on the ballot in order to make themselves look good. Now they can’t get out of the mess they’ve created. Must have been something in the House of Commons water in 2016TGOHF2 said:
Was it not old Ma Beckett who put him on the ballot ?SouthamObserver said:
Absolutely. Corbyn is the Tory get out of jail free card at the next election. If you support Tory FC that’s great. If you’re more interested in the future of the country it’s less of a cause for celebration. Johnson clearly has no idea how to navigate the reality of No Deal.ralphmalph said:
Makes you wonder how bad the opposition must be to not stop it.SouthamObserver said:
Tory FC heading for a fourth title in a row. UK citizens about to become poorer, less free and, it seems, less secure. What a result!HYUFD said:
The Tories have expanded their poll lead with Comres tonight into majority territory, the strategy is working fine to win a Tory majority and then deliver Brexit, regain sovereignty and replace free movement with a points systemSouthamObserver said:So, the Cummings/Johnson strategy has failed completely. The next plan seems to resolve around making the UK poorer, less free, more dependent on the goodwill of others and less secure. You do have to wonder at what point Tory MPs begin to ask themselves what these two are leading their party and their country towards.
What were Labour thinking . They deserve all of it.0 -
“We have fought many wars against the EU”.HYUFD said:
No, still very much up to date, we have never fought any wars against 3/4 of those nations and we share a Head of Stage, we have fought many wars against the EU and are currently fighting a diplomatic war with the EU now. Meanwhile the governments of Australia, Canada and New Zealand are all offering us a trade deal as is the US presidenteristdoof said:
You are 40 years out of date.HYUFD said:
The EU are not our closest allies at all, our closest allies are Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the USA.DougSeal said:
The EU will be pissing itself at this “threat”. And they are not seeking to annex part of our country. They want a customs arrangement over part of one of their member states we unlawfully annexed. Why are you so keen to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies?Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
I seem to have missed these. When were these wars? Who won?1 -
I agree 100%.Bournville said:I'm not sure arguments about exactly whose fault it is that relations between the EU27 and UK have collapsed matter much. The important thing to consider is that we are now facing a very real prospect of a drastic, semi-permanent cooling of relations. On the British side, the longer this goes on, the more radically anti-EU a certain section of the public will become. On the EU side, the longer this goes on, the more exasperated and frustrated a certain section of Brussels mandarins will become.
If we want to avoid this cooling - something that is, from a rational perspective, clearly in the interests of both sides - then something has to give to stop this ultimatum -> delay -> ultimatum cycle.
I don't think a revocation or second referendum -> Remain vote fixes this cycle, because the UK still has roughly half of its population that will continue to become more and more radically anti-EU as long as they feel that the government is not reflecting their views.
To avoid a historic split between the UK and EU27, MPs need to set aside their egos, vote for a deal, and ensure that we leave on broadly good terms that can set the groundwork for a reconstruction of the close relationship we had prior to the destructive ultimatum -> delay -> ultimatum cycle.
However, I think that setting aside their egos is impossible for this current Parliament, so I'm feeling pretty pessimistic about the whole thing.
Success is business (and life) comes through iteration. You get something in place that vaguely works and then you iterate.
Get a WA in place and iterate. Sometimes we'll be moving closer to the EU, and sometimes we'll be moving away. And that's OK. Because sometimes more cooperation will be in our interests, and sometimes more divergence will.1 -
We’re making the threats, Philip. Or, more accurately, Cummings is. But not even Johnson is going to put UK citizens in danger by refusing to cooperate with other European countries in the fight against terrorism. Go to bed mate. You need to calm down. Night!Philip_Thompson said:
Only if Europe doesn't want to cooperate with us as allies. Which would be brave.SouthamObserver said:So the plan is to fight Islamic extremis by scaling back on security cooperation with European countries. Brave.
Why wouldn't Europe want us as allies?
0 -
Go to bed. It’ll be better in the morning!Philip_Thompson said:
Good for you. We are not European, we are human. Asia, Europe, North America - it doesn't matter.SouthamObserver said:
Bless you. I am off to Japan in three weeks. The 350 person business I help to run - and still retain a share in - is holding an event for more than 400 senior executives from various Asian, European and North American countries there. We did a similar one for 650 in Boston in June.Philip_Thompson said:The UK is a country on this planet of ours called Earth that can be rapidly travelled quite easily. Europe is just one tiny continent on that planet. Open your mind and broaden your horizons.
Closing our eyes to Asia and North America and hyperventilating about Europe alone is not progress. We are a country on earth that can be accessed SAME DAY from every other planet on earth, just like every other one.
0 -
I think you'll find Europe have been making threats for the last three years. I'm quite calm, but I'm also quite prepared to put our country first.SouthamObserver said:
We’re making the threats, Philip. Or, more accurately, Cummings is. But not even Johnson is going to put UK citizens in danger by refusing to cooperate with other European countries in the fight against terrorism. Go to bed mate. You need to calm down. Night!Philip_Thompson said:
Only if Europe doesn't want to cooperate with us as allies. Which would be brave.SouthamObserver said:So the plan is to fight Islamic extremis by scaling back on security cooperation with European countries. Brave.
Why wouldn't Europe want us as allies?0 -
Technically it was a series of EU civil wars. A few states went rogue and had to be annihilated. I think it all started over whether the fruit of a tropical herbaceous should be an addition to a traditional Italian flatbread dish.Cyclefree said:
“We have fought many wars against the EU”.HYUFD said:
No, still very much up to date, we have never fought any wars against 3/4 of those nations and we share a Head of Stage, we have fought many wars against the EU and are currently fighting a diplomatic war with the EU now. Meanwhile the governments of Australia, Canada and New Zealand are all offering us a trade deal as is the US presidenteristdoof said:
You are 40 years out of date.HYUFD said:
The EU are not our closest allies at all, our closest allies are Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the USA.DougSeal said:
The EU will be pissing itself at this “threat”. And they are not seeking to annex part of our country. They want a customs arrangement over part of one of their member states we unlawfully annexed. Why are you so keen to piss off our closest and most forgiving allies?Philip_Thompson said:If the EU don't want us as allies and friendly neighbours then why shouldn't they be left to their own devices?
I want a deal not a cold war but if they opt to try and annex part of our country then they're big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and we need to look after ourselves. Its funny how people who seem so confident the EU is so mighty and powerful and puny Britain doesn't matter seem horrified at the idea that Britain might not defend mighty Europe anymore.
I seem to have missed these. When were these wars? Who won?
The states of Doggerland, Atlantia, and Orsinia were destroyed, and nowadays it's forbidden to mention them at all. I'm only doing so on condition of strict anonymity.1
